The Santa Rosa Press Democrat just posted my dad’s Tuesday column on the Super Bowl. Before the Super Bowl he asked if Tom Brady was as good as Joe Montana – the greatest quarterback of all time. Now, we know that he ain’t. So, in this column my dad asks a new question: Could Eli Manning be the closest quarterback to Joe Cool in the NFL right now? To read the column, click here.
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Troy Smith would have done well against that secondary! Does that mean he should be compared to Joe Montana? Waste of an article Lowell.
No, he isn’t the next Joe Cool. He is however, a two-time SB champion and two-time SB MVP. That is HOF territory there.
Totally agree BigP with your Take,
You can now enter in the discussion of Eli as HOF’er.
But to compare Eli to Montana?
Ahhhh……NO
BigP
Please come to grips with the Super Bowl MVP award. It almost always goes to the winning teams QB. While I am sure there are other instances, Jerry Rice winning the award is the only non-QB who won the award.
The QB of the winning team is the default winner. I don’t think that means he (QB) was the best player in the game.
Look at how often a QB wins the Super Bowl, and that tells you with pretty good accuracy who the MVP was. At least in the past 25 years or so.
didn’t a whole defense win the award back in the day ….. was it chicago
To make you feel old jg, that was more than 25 years ago.
ray lewis, hines ward, santonio holmes are recent non QBs
terrel davis, desmond howard, larry brown, emitt smith, mark rypien, ottis anderson
all came after jerry rice mvp award…..
So, jg.
That is 6 non-QB’s in 23 years.
Find better odds in Vegas, and I’ll become a betting man that the next Super Bowl MVP will go to a QB. With a near 75% certainty based on the last 23 years. I bet if I wanted to, I could find at least 6 QB’s who played non-great for their winning team who were selected over non QB players who played great for their winning team in that same time span.
throw in deion branch and dexter jackson and that makes 11 out of the past 23 SB were non QB….
just sayin it is approx 50 -50 but of course QB gets the overwhelming number for something that is a team sport
JG,
She just doesn’t want the facts to get in the way of her story. Nothing new.
Out of how many positions on a football team?
22 starters for offense and defense. Plus Special teams guys (kickers long snapper, gunner), and you have at a conservative estimate 26 guys who can determine the outcome of the game.
So, if it was really all equally graded and really viewed as a team sport, each position would be given about the same number of MVP awards as any other. So no 1 position dominates. Right?
Do you see that? No. Not even remotely close. You still have 50 % QB’s winning the award. How many nose tackle or inside DL have you seen win? Yet we hear all the time how no QB, no matter who it is, likes pressure up the middle. And that to control the LOS (which supposedly wins games), one must control the middle of the line. So why no Centers or guards then (or 1 at most, I don’t know, I am not looking, but the point is valid none the less)? No QB is any good on his back, and that is where he would be if the OL sucks.
And BigP, I am a Niner fan. Get that thru your thick head. Refer to me as DS. Not “she” like you think you know, because you don’t and you never will.
Nobody cares what you are DS. Everybody knows that if Alex had exactly the same performance in the SB you would be writing books about it. He didn’t, so you will minimize the accomplishments of someone that did. Nothing new. I prefer to give great performances and players the respect they deserve.
‘It almost always goes to the winning teams QB. While I am sure there are other instances, Jerry Rice winning the award is the only non-QB who won the award.’
just trying to bring clarity to the above statement….u know dark energy vs dark matter
JG,
Like I said, your presenting facts that are interfering with her story. She doesn’t like that.
“Nobody cares what you are DS. ”
So stop bringing it up then. There are only a handful of people who do, if you have not noticed. They all have some things in common as well, if you have not noticed. I have a name. Use it.
And, you mean to tell me that EM had a great performance in that game? The Giants stank in the redzone that game. The thing that so many people here said you had to do effectively in order to win the Super Bowl, they proved that you do not need to be good in to win.
@jg
I still go to Vegas with those odds and bet on the QB.
History will remember the two SB rings and MVP trophies, that’s all that really matters.
DS, I’m sorry but you must not know enough about football to make that nonsense comment. (some offense)
1st of all, not all positions are equal in the game. More pressure is on the quarterback to make plays because he runs the offense. He has to be able to read defense, audible, make accurate throw, time management and be in sync with his receiver among many other things. This is one of the reason that they get paid more and when you have an Elite player like Manning + the fact that he played exceptionally well in that game (+ the entire post-season), he deserved that MVP award. 30-40 (75% completion), 296 yrds, 1TD, 0 turnover and let the game winning drive, that sealed it. Tuck/JPP played well on defense and the receiving corp did their job but the accuracy of the qb was the determining factor in the outcome of Super Bowl XLVI
FYI, Giants did not suck in the red-zone (they were 2-3 (2TD), same as Pats.
Lowell you are the prisioner of the moment, Eli will be wearing the yellow jacket in 12 years but just don’t get the comparison.
The comparison comes from Eli’s ability to shine in the 4th quarter of big games. When Montana got the ball with 2 minutes left it almost felt like an automatic score. Eli is starting to have that same sort of feel.
He needs a couple more Super Bowls and to lower his horrible interception rate before he’s truly in the conversation with the greatest of all time though.
Eli is very good and the closest thing to NFL season elite, but to compare him to SB QB elite, it is blasphemy. There is only one Joe Cool and not many are close. Eli is not even close at this point. Yes he has two SB wins but he isn’t special although he is very very good.
Talk about taking a poke at the hornets nest! You got some b…ls Lowell (lol).
Eli still has a ways to go before being mentioned in the same breath as Joe Montana. But the ‘cool’ characteristic Eli displays is worthy of notice.
Eli has shown the uncanny knack of quickly putting a mistake behind him and still forge out a win. Not many QB’ can quickly recover from mistakes and still perform at a high level. Eli has exceled at this.
“Eli has shown the uncanny knack of quickly putting a mistake behind him and still forge out a win.”
Montana forgot a big mistake in Walsh’s last Superbowl. When he was driving for the touchdown that then made the famous drive to win the game possible, he hit a Cincinnati defensive back between the numbers in the end-zone. If he had been thinking about that bad pass on the next play he might not have thrown a touchdown pass. Of course, Montana also had to be a little lucky the guy dropped a gift interception. That’s something else Elie seems to be, a little lucky just at the right time — quick whistles, 12 men on the field, colliding defensive backs, and amazing catches in two super bowls.
To be fair to Alex Smith, that throw to Manningham looked a lot like the two he threw to Vernon Davis in the playoffs.
Yeah, I was thinking that, too. Phenomenal throws! You know what Walsh used to say…paraphrasing here, but it was close to, “Show me a guy who can make great plays, and I can teach him to be consistent.”
Eli does not deserve to be in that conversation any more than Brady. Can always count on LC to have a short memory and be controversial so people talk. Nobody is better at stirring the pot.
First thing, when Joe was playing he was already regarded as the number one QB, in today’s game at that time. Eli was not even mentioned in the top 5 for so darn long and now he will break the top 5.
Yes he is the next Montana, same way Brady was before the SB, and Peyton was before the Saints. I know there has to be something to write but enough is enough. Oh wait, just in Luck is the next Montana.
Nobody mentioned the passing of Greg Cook last week. Watched him play in college and with the Bengals his rookie year. Bill Walsh was his coach and called him Montana before Montana. His only year he was ROY, averaged over 9 yards per pass attempt and 17 per completion. 6’4″ 220 lbs, was hit in a Chiefs game and ruined his shoulder. RIP
Greg Cook’s story is a true tragedy. There were no MRI’s or Dr. Andrews around when his shoulder got crunched. No one knew what was wrong with it or how to fix it. If he had played 20 years later he would have had rotator cuff surgery (best guess) and come back the following season as good as new.
If you talk to old Bengals players they say Cook had “IT” in abundance and no one on the team doubted he could lead them to a championship.
Peter King mentioned it a couple of weeks ago in his MMQ column.
Go see it. Good read.
I’m not even gonna read that article! I’m not even gonna comment!
WTF? The next Joe Who?!?
Did you see the score of the game? C’mon now why trivialize Joe like that. Not cool!
With 2 Superbowls under his belt…..He’s still not even Peyton.
Eli won both his Super Bowls. Peyton lost one.
I knowthat. But he still isnt even his big brother, let alone Joe. Ya Dig?
With Peyton on the 49ers, he’ll win 10 more! Woooooooo! Take that little bro!
I mean, isn’t that the fantasy du jour around here lately?
The only thing PM is likely to win as a Niner (or any other team player) is the come back player of the year award 10 times after he gets pounded into the turf over and over again.
DS,
Really hatin on a hall of famer but in love with a scrub like Alex Smith. I just want the Niners to sign Josh Johnson so he takes Smiths job like everyone else has that he’s competed against!
The AS lovers are as thick as a brick, they are not NINER fans, they are AS fans, if it was up to them they would still pick AS over AR.
PM is no doubt a HoF’er. If Marino can go an entire career without winning on the big stage and get inducted(I’m not arguing his resume folks), then Manning WILL be inducted.
Doesn’t mean I want him for the 9ers.
He’s not what this team needs. If you sign Manning, then you will NOT be able to sign a solid Free Agent Receiver.
Signing half of the solution is like not addressing it at all. Smith is good enough to make the most of what you give him. While Manning on the other hand wouldn’t do much better behind a Line that at times has virtually imploded right before our eyes (immobility is a killer) to be able to throw the ball to the likes of Brett Swain, #15, #10 and Teddy Ginn.
See while Manning is a statuesque QB, Smith can at least make something out of nothing with his feet. Forget 3rd downs. Many of our downs were converted before 3rd down. So the number is skewed.
If you could promise me that the other team would play Prevent all day long, then sign Manning right the F now. Screw the tampering charges. Get it done.
Since the Opposing Defense isn’t going to go Bellicheat on us, the unlikelihood of Manning to the 9ers is all but assured. It makes no sense to get Manning only to have to Rely on a Sophomore QB with hardly any Starting Reps to his NFL resume if Manning goes down.
Have people forgotten Dilfer? I know Dilfer is no Manning but Manning just went through a very involved process of having his neck fused. That’s a HUGE question mark and the man may look more like Dilfer than anyone is willing to admit.
Say no and go with Alex unless there is someone that gets away from their Franchise that is markedly better.
Statistically, no, Eli is not Joe Montana’s equal. His percentage rates in career wins, completions, touchdowns, interceptions and passer rating are all significantly behind Montana’s, and Eli plays in a much more passer-friendly NFL era.
Eli has been good enough and cool enough in the clutch to win two Super Bowl MVPs. But he isn’t the threat to run that Montana was, and he hasn’t matched Joe’s dominance in the Super Bowl. It remains to be seen if Eli wins any more Super Bowls. But it is worth noting that he has won the same number at age 31 as Joe did.
I don’t know if Lowell really expressed this clearly, but maybe one similarity between Eli and Joe is the fact that they were kind of overlooked entering the Super Bowl.
Most observers thought the opposing quarterback was better. Tom Brady certainly entered both Super Bowls against the Giants with a better overall career than Manning. It’s hard to believe now, but Montana wasn’t considered the better quarterback entering his first two Super Bowls. Both Ken Anderson and Dan Marino won the NFL MVP awards during those seasons, respectively.
Boomer Esiason was the NFL MVP in 1988. Montana had a rough season that year, but was great down the stretch and won his third Super Bowl. Montana’s best year statistically was his final Super Bowl season, when he won the NFL MVP.
Don’t forget, that (as much as I respect Coach Walsh) Walsh would send in the hook for Joe when games were comfortably in hand. He’d send in the Backup to get them reps in Garbage Time to preserve his Starter and that was a big reason why Joe was overlooked deep into his career.
There were many reasons why Walsh did that. One was to not run up the score on the opponent if he didn’t have to. Nobody could whine if the Backup scored because Walsh pulled his Starter. 2nd it kept Joe healthy and third it gave the Backup the necessary reps to step in should he have to. In today’s Pass happy NFL, that doesn’t happen. That’s how guys have the yardage they have when combined with a Receiving Corps that get YAC.
I think the rules as they are enforced today also help offense more and more. As I understand it, the officials are allowing less and less contact by defensive backs …
It is interesting how football has evolved. Walsh always favored the two-back system, with a tight end and two wide receivers. These days, offenses are changing personnel packages every down, using four or five wide receivers, using spread and run-and-shoot principles.
Part of the reason was to prevent defenses from using the eight-man fronts that Buddy Ryan popularized. Coaches like Mike Holmgren also wanted to get personnel mismatches, especially if their third wide receiver was better than a defense’s fifth defensive back. It took some time to overcome the conventional wisdom that sending out more receivers would leave fewer blockers and get your quarterback killed. I think it has helped inflate the passing and receiving numbers. But like Walsh, I still think it’s crucial to have a strong running game, both to keep the defense off balance and to control the clock at the end of the game.
The Cohn Zohn page views must have been really down lately (no surprise, considering the content) because Grant is posting here ALL of his dad’s columns.
I didn’t read the column (nor I will) but I’m wondering how Eli could even be compared to Joe Montana when he had like what? 8 drives to put the Gianst in field goal territory and win the game agains the Niners, and could not do it.
A fumble on a punt return saved his face.
So Alex Smith has reversed to a bust because he could not do it, but Eli gets to be compared to Joe Montana.
Right…
truth
But Alex never won a Super Bowl.
I’m not saying that the Smith detractors are right. Just saying that’s their stance. And even if Smith does Win one? It’ll be that he got lucky. There is nothing Smith can do that would make these fools happy. ;)
Here we go again. Daddy’s appears in son’s blog.
Seriously? He continues his agenda against Alex Smith?! Give it a break. Alex mad that same throw two or three times during the playoffs.
In addition, it’s somewhat intriguing reading the self proclaimed experts write columns like that one. Eli isn’t even the next Terry Bradshaw, but thanks for bringing up the greatest QB to ever play the game in yet another article, Montana.
Watching Adam Schefrer who was on Charlie Rose, and he gives credit to TB for that ball he threw to Wes Welker as being a good pass, and places the blame for the incomplete pass on Welker.
There is a difference right there between AS and TB in how each are viewed.
If AS throws that exact same pass, and it is not caught, the blame is on AS, not the WR for missing a wide open WR. During the game, I thought it was a bad pass that required a great catch. Welker was WIDE open (more than MC was) and an easier to catch ball makes the difference.
But because it is Tom Brady who threw it, he is above being blamed for poor play. AS has a huge target for blame on him. So, please keep plays like this in mind.
How about the passes knocked down at the line? I’ve seen AS get lambasted here for those, yet TB had two in the big game…it happens to the best of them! It’s called good D-line play…
No…. Next!
He’s not the next Joe Cool. No one is (yeah, that means you too Mr. Brady)… But, I’d gladly take him on the Niners. Much better than Alex Smith. That much is for sure…
Alex Smith had a BETTER game than Manning did in the Championship game.
If that knucklehead, #10, doesn’t muff 2 Punts in a row Manning is sitting at home crying into his Peyton Manning blankie.
And Manning has BETTER Receivers than Smith has. You want Manning? Go root for the Gints.
Last time I looked QBs play against the other teams defense, and don’t play against the other QB.
larry brown super bowl mvp that pretty much tells you how important a super bowl mvp is
I had that in mind when I wrote my first post. Guy stank so bad after that though, figured he doesn’t deserve mentioning.
@ds9 great point on blame for incompletetions
It helps to have two receivers that would be at the top of any team’s depth chart Red. Both sides, keep Smith out of it for once.
QB still has to throw the ball to those recievers. Bret Favre the year in Minn….. Lights out. The next year he was gone… No Bueno. Same recievers. Same as Indy last year. You cant give the QB credit or fault when you feel its in your best arguement. QB still has to deliver in EVERY situation. That means Smith needs to work on using the whole field next year. Not just Davis on his 1st hot read then over to a check down. Thats why Smith had a little success last year. Its obvious. This will be his second year in this offense. I expect Harbugh knows these faults and will help him get better at them, and adding Jackson from SD will help a lot. Our recievers arent that bad. They were open quit a bit last season and never got the looks.
Enough with the Joe Montana comparisons. Everyone of them has fallen short.
The greatest will always be the measuring point. Im sure JM will take that.
Comparing someone who has won four Super Bowls to someone who just won his second is absolutely ridiculous. Eli is Eli and Joe is Joe. IT’S AS SIMPLE AS THAT.
He may be the next Joe Cool (wasn’t that Snoopy in a cartoon?). But the next Joe Montana? Get back to us after two Eli has racked up more SB wins, Lowell. With the ascendent 49ers, it will be a long *long* wait for that column.
Joe “Cool” is Montana for the way he played in CLUTCH moments. Dude just had a calmness about him that is simply indescribable to anyone that hadn’t seen it live.
This season Alex did it a bunch of times. That’s the only real way to describe it, to be honest. You watch Smith march his team down the field in the final minutes and you tell me that kid don’t have an inner “Joe Cool” about him when he’s doing it.
I’m not comparing him to Montana at all. Just pointing out that he’s got this calmness that is surreal in clutch moments. It’s too bad that a certain Backup Punt Returner left his head on the bench when he picked up his helmet and ran out onto the field.
Of any QB this season that DESERVED to go to the Big Show? It was Alex Smith. I feel bad for the kid that he’s gotta get lambasted by ignorant fools who think that QB is the only position on the field.
Eli Manning the best QB in football right now?
Yeah, sure.
At the start of the year, it was AR. He who has stood atop the mountain and slayed the demon lord Favre and all others who stood before him. The MVP award was already a done deal. The name was already inscribed onto the trophy (that would be the NFL regular season and Super Bowl MVP).
Then, somewhere along the way, it was all about DB. DB was great the whole year, but somehow DB became the King of the world defeating such mighty giants as the Panthers, Titans, Vikings in 3 of the last 4 regular season games. DB was the one who was the clear best QB at the end of the regular season. No boubt about it. And if you doubted it, you were chastised into a place of torture and torment that Hades himself would grimice if he were to ever visit such an awful place.
Now, it was really Eli Manning who was the best QB all year long. This despite needing a dump truck full of 4-leaf clovers to come away with the win against the Niners in the NFC Championship game. Really now. Has anybody’s beautiful daughter gone missing just before that game and has yet to be found whose last known whereabouts was near the Giants facility?
I just love how the best QB is anointed as the season wares on from one guy to the next without ever a smidge of doubt or concern as to what happened to the last best QB.
DS, I would have agreed with everything you said right up until this, “Really now. Has anybody’s beautiful daughter gone missing just before that game and has yet to be found whose last known whereabouts was near the Giants facility?”
Some of the comments you make are a little strange. First the comment about how the WTC coming down made for the Patriots first Super Bowl to be fate, and now this? You might want to go get checked out. Seriously, I am not trying to be a smart guy here.
DS’s comments make sense in her own language when she thinks of them. They just don’t translate to english all the time.
The daughter comment had to do with the idea that is thrown around sports that one side sacraficed somebody in order to appease those who will give them luck, situation, (insert whatever) that explains an event/outcome in a game.
I often use sarcasm and such in my posts. I felt the whole post had a sense of exaggeration. So even though I said “Really…” it was’t serious. Have you ever listened to any talk/discussion? Such exaggerations are not unheard of. Did you take the Hades thing seriously? I hope not. Within my sarcasm is the underlining point. You can agree or not with that point. You can’t cuss me out like you did to me last night. That was not cool with me.
If Grant feels the comment is bad, he can delete it. It is his blog after all.
I don’t get at all the upset about the WTC comment. I remember quite well everybody finding it destined that the team named the “Patriots” won the Super Bowl following the WTC collapse. My family who know nothing about football also pointed that out. So, I’m not alone in this.
Whatever the excuse is you want to use, that was an absurd way of trying to make a point, sarcastic or otherwise.
The fun thing about you is that even though you are consistently wrong in your statements you will continue to post them and then try to back them up like you were right.
Case in point, the QB always wins the MVP award, or at least it is 75% of the time, I will take those odds in Vegas, ok maybe 50%, dang I just totally missed the boat over the last 20+ years. ROTFLMAO!
Almost as ridiculous as her comments about the Patriots having the magic of 9/11 on their side when they won the SB.
Good Jack.
Now you have only yourself to blame for reading my posts.
I’ll be ok if you skip them.
I accepted jg’s numbers. He initially only had 6, so it was 75%.
Then he added more after it was 75%. So, the % dropped. Seems to me you are upset that jg with-held names. Don’t blame me at all. I only used what I was given.
And this is where your lack of stats comes in. I said about 25 or so starters on a team. In 25 years that averages out to 1 position wins MVP once in that 25 years if it really is random (4% or so per position are the chances of MVP using 25 starter players). Anything more than double that (8%) or higher is very dubious indeed.
But 50%? That tells me the process is not random or evenly distributed.
4% vs 75% or
4% vs. 50%
There is a known pattern there. Can you see it? Either % works to the same conclusion.
No you can’t see the pattern (I’m going out on a limb here).
DS,
Well we know it wasn’t Alex Smith, your hero couldn’t even get comeback player of the year.
His season wasn’t as Fail as you predicted it would be either. Kick rocks until the Season starts Jordo. 14-2 is a HELL of a season and Smith would probably be holding that Lombardi STILL, if #10 didn’t blow it for everybody.
But I forget, those 2 fumbles were Smith’s fault. My bad, carry on.
@Ceadderman
Of course 23J promised all the world to stop posting here if the Niners resigned AS.
Tick….tock…..tick…..tock….
i dont get you people on this blog 49er fans cannibalizing other 49er fans. my god how do you treat the real evil in the world?….cowboy fans
@old coach
You learn pretty quickly to skip certain posters. If you read everything, you’ll go crazy.
Let’s review the “greatness” of Eli. In his first Superbowl, he throws up a prayer, a receiver makes an out-of-this-world fluke catch against his helmet, and Eli is the hero. In his second bowl, he throws a good pass, but the receiver makes an out-of-this-world catch that would have been incomplete 9 out of 10 times and Eli is the hero. His team fumbles three times – two times the ball bounces back into his teammates hands and the other, it’s nullified by 12 men on the field. Two weeks before, a key fumble is nullified by a quick whistle and a horrible call. The guy is a good QB. No question. But, he’s also incredibly lucky. Montana threw well-conceived bulls-eyes. He threw no interceptions in Superbowls (yes, he threw one pass in his four Bowls that should have been intercepted but was dropped, but whatever.) He didn’t throw up any prayers that were met with out of this world catches. He didn’t need his receivers to do the impossible. There is simply no comparison between Eli and Joe Montana.
actually i think clark came out of his world to make the catch
It was a practiced play though, so I’m not sure how Clark came out of his world to make that play. But it sure looked godlike to a 12 year old kid jumping around the Family Room hysterically laughing and enjoying the moment. :D
u r right it was a practiced play……which i think was never completed in practice….and clark had some serious hops going on to get that high
Practiced play or not.
Had DC not come down with that catch, nobody would have thought the less of him.
That was a much better catch than it was a great pass.
“he throws a good pass, but the receiver makes an out-of-this-world catch that would have been incomplete 9 out of 10 times”. Are you kidding me? that pass pass was perfectly thrown where only Manningham or any good receiver SHOULD catch it. He was pin-point accurate and had 30-40 (75%) completion with 296 yrds and no turnovers.
And in SB XLII, you forgot that he eluded 3 players to avoid the sack before the pass and yes, that was an amazingly lucky catch by Tyree but completed never the less. Eli is a good quarterback, a clutch player who can play under pressure — not the best in the NFL for sure, but I don’t know if I would want anyone else with the ball when you need a TD to win the game.
I have to give Lowell credit: i thought the title was preposterous, but your pops lays out the credible story that Eli came up big in the clutch and threw some amazing passes late in the key games. The throw to Manningham is as much of a big-time throw as the game has seen, and the late throw down the sideline against the Niners – before he was crushed by J.Smith and others – was another (unfortunately) big-time throw. When you perform at this level, late in championship games, you deserve to have your name tossed around with the all time greats. Having said that, he’s still in that second group behind Montana, Bradshaw, and a couple of others (T. Brady, for one). But he’s still in his prime and if he does it two more times, then he’ll deserve to be mentioned alongside Joe.
I really felt like this article tells the story about our playoffs and the difference between our QB and Eli and Montana.
http://nflfilms.nfl.com/2012/01/24/cosell-talks-for-alex-smith-what-a-difference-a-week-made/
Although most of us hated to face the truth, Cosell told it.
Your “airness” lol,
there will be some that have a problem with that article. I for one do not have a problem with it. It is dead on accurate.
I’m done beating this dead horse. I don’t care that a select group has blinders on when it comes to assessing the most important position on our team, “QB”. I trust Harbaugh. I trust that he has a plan.
As much as I would love to have Manning under center for the Niners, I know that it will not happen. For the same reason that T.O. wasn’t brought in. Harbaugh dislikes the distractions and does not like the media attention. Bring in Manning and it will be a mad house. He is a media darling. Jim is going with the home grown plan, which is a good one by the way. I’ll take this offseason to prepare myself to watch Harbaugh punch Alex in the pads once again in attempts to light a fire under him.
You got a new pair of blinders for Xmas didn’t you Bay? Lemme guess they got 9er Bling on em. :p
There are snippets of truth in the article for sure, but it gets really old that it HAS to be the QB’s fault when the team loses. It couldn’t have been anything else as well? Cosell has an agenda, plain and simple. We as a whole are WAY too enamored with the QB position and what makes one great and another simply average.
Let’s look at it this way. Did anyone really think less of Brady because of his performance in the SB? I sure hope most of you are smarter than that. The guy is a total of maybe 2 inches away from having 5 SB victories. If Tyree just let’s the ball slip 1 more inch, they [or just Brady if you prefer] win in 07′, if Welker holds on the ‘poorly’ thrown ball with 4 min left, the Pats win another one.
Just that alone determines the legacy of Brady? We as ‘real fans’ as some like to say, should know better, this is the ultimate team sport that requires extreme synergy between all players and coaches to be succesful. So now just because of a little luck Eli is the man and Brady is NOWHERE near JM, nah I don’t think so. Brady is just as good as he was last week. It’s not HE didn’t get it done, it’s THEY didn’t get it done.
This is the merry go round that we do with AS each week, we try to find blame with one guy when in fact in EVERY scenario ever talked about in this blog there has been multiple facts and scenarios that get left out because either people don’t know ENOUGH about what they are talking about, do not want to relent their opinion or are too lazy to do some research to explain the FULL story.
Alex isn’t great nor does he suck, he improved quite a bit this year let’s hope he can improve a few more things next year.
agree, football in brady’s case was a game of inches…and it keeps the montana comparisons in check
but it still makes me wonder who was the greater part of the legacy…montana or clark on the catch……i don’t have that answer as well….
DW wheel route…just to pick one instance
when was DW wide open?…in the mind of bay and 23J or cossel
what i see
DW looks back to AS with hands up at the LOS….AS could have easily delivered the ball to DW at this point for a minimal gain because #23 pushes off crabtree to go back to DW….. then DW turns up field as #23 recovers from the push off and at the same time A davis disengages from the pass rusher #91 and doesn’t try to re engage allowing the pass rusher to come on strong (immediately within 2 yds of AS) flushing AS to the left just as DW comes even with the #23… now between the time DW at the LOS and just before DW comes even with #23 AS sees VD dragging across middle and as he begins the set up motion to throw to VD #90 jumps high forcing AS to bypass VD or get ball batted down… afterwards under pressure moving left AS couldn’t square his shoulders as DW gets a step on the recovered CB because now he is trying to move away from 3 pass rushers….he gets sacked
just sayin the article does not accurately portray the events of the play….or the progression of the reads
now on this play my critique is AS has not made this offense his own….because he did only 6 yards away to the opposite side, as #90 was coming down from jumping, have an outlet pass to gore he didn’t seem to recognize was there for good yardage which interestingly enough Adavis who was left standing alone after disengaging from #91 could have had an impact on blocking for gore if the play would have gone that way…. it is this point of contention that makes eli better than AS in this game for the time being…eli knows where his players are and AS doesn’t as the play progresses or breaks down and this is what i am banking on AS improves on next year….if not then …..
this gore type of play would demonstrate why QBs of successful offenses attribute their success to being in a system for a period of time….AS needs to take this next step so he can scan faster and more efficiently with a file of brain fed snapshots in his head were the outlet playmakers are at anytime
so no, i don’t agree with cossel on this play….that DW was the apparent missed opportunity
now for the KW overthrow for a potentially missed TD…. the throw was made with a bit of pressure in AS face before KW came even to splitting the safties up the middle slightly right to left as the QB looks down the field…AS is essentially throwing the rcvr open but because of the up the middle pressure puts a tad too much air underneath the ball because the safties were underneath by completion and misses KW by 3 yds at about the 30yd line …missed opportunity absolutely … but AS made the right decision and pulled the trigger…other team’s QB have also missed this throw…but because AS makes so few throws of this type in the game any miss looks and in this case is huge no doubt….but this kind of throw, was up until the last part of the season, what many bemoaned was a missing part of the offensive game plan….just like AS not being able to hit the sideline route and then got successful at later in the season…. my take on the situation is the whole disruption, due to injuries (ginn, walker, morgan) and cuts (BE), to the WR core did make this part of the game more suspect and not as well practiced for game time unveiling…..It was unfortunate the niners came into the playoffs limping a bit….it made covering MC easier gameplan wise
apparently, for blog sake the focus is so much on AS missing opportunities just for a lightening rod storyline….yet why didn’t the niner defender #22 pick that ball off in the endzone a play just before eli hits TE for a TD to tie the game at 7-7…..seems to me this would have changed the game a bit to where KW fumbles and miscues would not have mattered….
another missed opportunity in a team game….
Correct JG, unless we break down every play as you have, facts get lost and people fall back on their opinions that have already been made up.
Every play in every game can be broken down in so many ways that is possible to create an argument for anything. I guarantee I and probably a dozen or more other people on this blog could completely blow up Cosell’s ‘stance’ that AS was the main reason the Niners lost to the Giants. Does AS need to improve his accuracy? Yes. does he need to ‘let it fly’ more often? Yes. Do his WR need to ‘go and get it’ more often? Yes.
I’m neither a ‘lover’ or a ‘hater’.
I say we start a ‘new’ name battle, it’s the realists vs the idealists, that is closer to the truth of the matter.
@jg
When I replayed the DW wheel route play, I focused on only 2 things. DW being wide open and AS having time to throw him the ball. I saw neither that would have impacted the game.
I saw neither happening to the degree the play has been discussed on this blog.
I might also note, that sfgate.com with Eric Branch and Kevin Lynch did not discuss the play at all as a missed opportunity, failure of AS, etc. And, as I wrote yesterday, neither Grant, nor anybody here saw DW open on the play as it happened live.
@bray
I was cussed out yesterday by jack hammer for a post where I discussed why I brought up FG into a conversation with AES. The hater label is appropriate, and as I have said many times before, is not limited to the persons views of AS. AS is just a fall back guy for the haters to express their hate.
If you want to see what horrible thing I wrote to deserve the f bombs my way, here it is. I will let you be your own judge if it was deserving:
“Because you brought up FG’s past demanding of the ball, and because I brought up FG’s interview and because that Philly game really sealed the players belief in the coaching staff. Why does that matter? Because this has been the most “team” oriented team all season, and in any of our recollections. And that MC steps outside those bounds means more than if this were the Raiders dysfunctional locker room who don’t know what team means.”
Don’t even have to give all the info jg just simply say it like this…
DW looks wide open because Smith was on his back and the DB holds up seeing the play is dead. Finito. End of Story.
If people don’t believe that then they can go back to their DVRs’ and dial it up.
Not that it should’ve mattered ANYWAY since the game was well in hand until the Backup Punt Returner went out onto the field and stupidly ran up to it like he’s ALWAYS done.
Watch “Sound FX pt II”. That guy is so freakin clueless after that Fup. Instead of holding himself personally accountable, he says “it didn’t touch me”. For this alone he shoulda got the boot. >8[
“DW looks wide open because Smith was on his back and the DB holds up seeing the play is dead. Finito. End of Story.
If people don’t believe that then they can go back to their DVRs’ and dial it up.”
I did earlier. But the haters don’t care about such silly things like film and DVR’s showing AS on his back as the reason why the Giant player stopped covering DW.
Nope, their new hero Cosell ;who does not wrong, said otherwise.
my point is the agenda types where known to say they have eyes and can see good QB play….but lately since AS has done pretty well (hit sideline deep passes, hit deep passes for TDs, hit crossing routes to win games, hit seam passes for big gains, complete passes while being hit) have chosen to use somebody in the media to further their agenda of putting down a reasonably fine comeback type year …. cosell uses a couple of examples one that just wasn’t true (DW)and the other was a misfire not unlike many that occur to all QBs….
also I chose to critique AS on the DW play because i saw something that is more important to the overall scheme of AS running the offense properly….not called out by others…not knowing where gore was….
Having arguments about who would be better than AS and how to get them are basically empty arguments….determining flaws and seeing how AS and his coaches scheme/resolve them is what interests me….and to be sure AS has flaws and for me those flaws have more to do with reading defenses and knowing his offense well enough to anticipate where his outlet rcvrs are when plays progress or breakdown… that takes time
some say he can’t make the throws…..
some say he can’t beat out competition….
some say he can’t pull the trigger…
some say he doesn’t have vision….
i probably would agree with the last statement but i think that is more a function of making this offense his own and knowing where everybody is….by the end of next year i will know if he can overcome this hurdle….he has shown me plenty of times throughout his tour in SF he can run a hurry up offense and make all the throws and pull the trigger and this not being able to beat the competition well is kind of a muted argument since the first couple of years he was basically forced into playing followed by a couple of years of injury, followed by a couple of years of deficient offensive coaching philosophy in singletary and a very tired ray….
not putting AS on any sort of pedestal but clearly am not throwing him under the bus when the team comes up short
@jg
I don’t think AS has issues reading defenses so much as he has problems knowing what to do with the ball after reading the defense.
The main culprit of this is because he has never mastered any offensive scheme. He has to think about it before the throw. As opposed to a QB who has mastered the system, it is much more like muscle memory and is done automatically. It is not possible for any QB to master any scheme in only 1 year going from one HC to another, one scheme to another. It usually takes a few years.
Brady sat for a year before starting his great Super Bowl year of 2001. Terry Bradshaw said he had trouble with just mastering his 1 HC’s offensive system, and is amazed at how AS has done. JM said at the start of the year not to expect too much because it takes time to master the WCO, but that AS has all the physical and mental tools to do so. He just needed a good HC, and now he has one in JH (and boy did he ever).
But, we nearly made and won the Super Bowl our first year into this new offense.
By the way, nobody besides the Niners coaches and players really saw much of JM in any real meaningful games before JM masterd BW’s offense. People tend to think he just popped right out of of Notre Dame and did what he did. He didn’t. He learned all the X’s and O’s and all the classroom stuff before going out there. We didn’t see “bad” JM” because JM knew the offense before starting. As opposed to AS, who has always been learning the offense while starting. Big difference there. Comparing those situations really isn’t fair.
I’m not a big alex fan but cosell knows absolutley nothing. he is a fool
Can’t do it DS, they are too darn funny to skip.
here’s Ernie Accorsi’s scouting report on Eli from 2002.
http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=433972
“Summary: I think he’s the complete package. He’s not going to be a fast runner, but a little like Joe Montana, he has enough athletic ability to get out of trouble…. But he has a feel for the pocket. Feels the rush.
Throws the ball, takes the hit, gets right back up… Has courage and poise. In my opinion, most of all, he has that quality you can’t define. Call it magic. As [former Baltimore Colts defensive back] Bobby Boyd told me once about Unitas, “Two things set him apart: his left testicle and his right testicle.”…”
Mood,
Nice!
IF that were indeed true I would trade my entire draft for him plus next years #1.
Regarding Mr. Craps comment.
No, Luck is the new Montana
Speaking of Jeremy Lin..I remember clear as a bell Damon Bruce and Larry Riley on 1050,live, ripping him as a waste of a roster spot. Larry Riley stupidity strikes again,Bruce’s well known mid western cultural igorance bias strikes again.
I never heard a GM say a player-let alone player a project of the owner- was a waste of a roster spot. I never heard a peep from the media about that.
Congrats to Lin,who got in some pointed shots at the Warriors when he said its nice to play with a team that wants to win.
He might not be the balerina glider to the boards the Warriors prefer..but that bulldog gets there just the same.
Amazing how the blog always swings back to AS. The topic could be a player’s favorite dish and it would come back to AS. The obsession with him has to stop. If he is with the team, fine. If Harbaugh goes another way, that’s fine too. There are bigger concerns on this team than him. Geez.
@midwest
The topic was about QB. So, not a long leap to AS.
Smith would have thrown it two feet short of Nicks…
Eli is a great quarterback, one of the best I’ve ever seen. Not quite joe cool, not quite elway skills.
He is captain clutch.
many people used to say payton couldn’t win a super bowl and eli would never win a super bowl…
i always thought from the first day i saw him play,,,,
eli would win many super bowls….my man
…”I swear that on every article related to the Niners and QB’s, some idiot(s) brings up Peyton Manning to the the 49ers and how much sense it makes. It’s the most moronic thing I can think of.
Harbaugh runs a power run based offense. Some say that’s because he didn’t have an elite QB. But even with Stanford and arguably the top college QB he still ran a power run based offense. And that’s not Peyton’s game. Peyton wants to be the primary engine of the offense. He wants to sit back in the shotgun and make pre-snap reads of the offense and make the adjustments to the offense like an on the field Offensive Coordinator. Harbaugh/Roman’s offense is highly structured and simple/rigid (though this may have more to do with the limited time they had to work with Smith and the offense in the shortened off season last year) that would rather throw the ball away and punt than risk pushing the ball downfield (other than some designed “shot plays” that due to field position, down and distance and the score…minimize the downside of a loss of down or even an interception). Harbaugh and Manning are philosophically on different sides of the offensive spectrum in terms of on field/off field control and risk/reward analysis/mitigation.
Also, the Niners don’t have any Wide Receivers of any note or accomplishment to throw to. Vernon Davis is the primary and pretty much only receiving option.
The Niners Offensive Line doesn’t pass block too well. Their best way to help the O-line with pass blocking is to run the ball better to keep down and distances controllable for shorter more controlled passes that come out quicker and also to keep D-linemen honest and not cheat to primarily pass rush. Keeping Payton upright is pretty important for a guy coming off of major neck surgery.”….
true, and in that scheme TEs were the major thrust….kind of how this season played out…not having JM and BE to balance the offensive passing was an unfortunate occurrence ….. i suspect the staff also believes the running game needs to be addressed every bit as much as the WRs and the OL is still dicey…..
there are a lot of questions to be addressed this off season…pretty exciting for a niner fan
Great post oneniner! Was that all you? You sounded like an NFL scout who doesn’t bother reading about a player, but instead come up with your own conclusions. I agree 100% with the PM part. It isn’t going to as easy a transition as many think.
The OL pass protection part is my largest concern. VD is wasted if he is kept in to block. If he plays like he did in the playoffs, he is the best TE bar none. Notice how other teams were screwed when VD was split outside? They could not cover him.
But if you put him out wide, he can’t block. So the opposing defense can get away with a blitz betting the blitz gets to AS before he can get it out.
Which is why I say you need a WR who requires 2 team all game long. Now if you blitz, you are really gambling that AS won’t find either VD or that WR (LF). And I bet after a few games, other teams won’t take so many risks, which will help the OL in pass protection.
I think our OL was not so bad in pass protection when the other team only rushed 4 (-Baltimore game), which teams would have to a lot more often if VD is split out wide and we get that all-world WR, or face the dire consequences.