My dad wrote his Sunday column for the Santa Rosa Press Democrat about the New Orleans Saints and their bounty program for knocking opposing players out of the game. My dad doesn’t think this scandal is overblown – he thinks it’s serious. I do, too. Football is supposed to be a sport, not war. It’s physical, not dirty. There’s a difference. My dad proposes lifetime banishment from the NFL for Sean Payton, Gregg Williams, and any other thugs like them. To read the article, click here.
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@Grant
If what you and your dad proposing actually happened, then the NO Saints would go into the toilet.
Maybe now we know why DB hasn’t signed a long-term deal with the Saints.
I didn’t feel sorry when Peyton got hurt last year. Now, I think it might have been the football gods coming back and enacting amall bit of karma which he is still owed.
And that story about the Niners first preseason game looks a lot more like the truth than it did before.
Yeah I actually CHEERED when I saw that happened. I felt It was quite Karmic after the BS way the went after our QBs’ in Preseason.
And now with the Bounty issue?
Oooooh man I think Karma could use a little help from the league.
The Niners play the Aints in Orleans this coming season. There could be a little legal payback. GO NINERS.
Ultimately there will be probes and investigations, but all that will come of it will be a few teams will lose some draft picks and some coaches will get suspended for a few games. However I agree with Lowell, there should be some lifetime bans handed out for this. Its football, not thunderdome.
If the NFL wants this to stop, it’s simple: any time a player gets knocked out of the game by an opposing player’s cheap shot, the player that delivered the shot is immediately ejected, AND the team that lost the player due to the cheap shot gets to choose ANY PLAYER on the offending team to remove.
A 15 yard penalty and $10,000 is NOTHING. If the Saints knew that they were risking the loss of Brees due to a cheap shot on Favre, THAT would stop it. I played the game for years and was able to deliver many hard, legal hits. I was on the receiving end as well, and didn’t mind as long as it was legal. However, those who took cheap shots at me, paid for it, and not in cash.
oh the flag football games you had in the park
Your dad’s best article yet Grant. No argument from me on this one. It’s also good to know the team’s best defensive players don’t think the same way as the ‘Bounty’ Saints.
I wasted 2 minutes of my life reading your Lowell Cohn’s column; now I would suggest that everyone read Gwen Knapp’s column on the subject that appears in this Sunday’s Chronicle. In my opinion Gwen has a much more realistic slant.
Gosh, that two minutes was really, really important. How will you ever get it back? You can’t really, can you. It’s very, very sad.
Sorry for your lost this is really a tragic story and I hope you can bounce back with heavy therapy and the warmth of family and friends by your side you will get through this, remember God only gives you what you can handle.
lol..
I’m trying to figure out why Larry Kreuger goes by M2?…I’m still lost at Bob Fitzgeralds TC Firehouse non de plume of two years ago..might be sexual?
Dennis?
Yep,Its him.
M2 is not me if that is what you are suggesting.
I read Gwen’s piece; didn’t much care for it. Calling people naive for believing in sportsmanship and self-limits on behavior. I guess she didn’t talk to Dashon. Who you going to ask on the 49ers about big hits? Dashon. So she’s buying the status quo and entrenched out of touch ideas. Does she want to go back to the good old days of no women in the locker room, and Black guys can’t play QB?
You know folks, there ARE limits. There’s even limits to appropriate behavior during warfare! With good reason, trust me on that.
Anybody remember Hardy Brown? He hit so hard (clean) he wasn’t allowed to practice against his 49er teammates. His take was always that he never wanted to injure anybody, but he hoped to hurt everybody; he wanted them to get up looking for who did it.
That’s part of it. ‘Contracts’ shouldn’t be.
Back in the 50′s the Steelers had a bounty program; they’d give a case of beer to whoever got a QB sack. The League outlawed that practice and all ‘payouts’ way back then.
As I write this I’m thinking lifetime ban may be too extreme, but a significant ban that could be lifted later by the Commish a la Vick and Plax; PLUS other suspensions of lesser participants and definitely Draft Choice penalties. It has to be overwhelmingly not worth it if the NFL wants to break the entrenched mentality.
She and Kawakami took the contrarion road..and both sound lost and out of touch.
I mean,when I was posting that Singletary wasn’t using Frank Gore-he was ABUSING him like a human battering ram..Kawakami sort of sneared and said “Running backs wear out”..blase.
Yeah-Sing took about four more good years out of Frank and Kawakami didnt give damn.
10 year loss of a teams #1draft pick would make sure everybody reports to the proper authorities.
On top of that, ban the individuals directly involved for life. Goes for coaches and players who received benefits.
That way there is no reason not to turn those involved in, and makes sure there are no “turn the other way” organizations who wouldn’t put an end to the practice immediately under a penalty which in effect wipes out a team for about a decade or more.
The fact that G.Williams has admitted to this and the same pattern seems to have followed him on teams he coached is criminal. I would be interested to see how many opposing players were ‘targets’ or on the GW hit list. The punishment in this case should be greater than the crime because an intentional injury not only hurts a teams chance at winning but could cause serious and permanent damage to players career and health after football.
Suspend Williams for life. We do not need coaches like him in the NFL
Back in the day.. Buddy Ryan was (in)famous for putting a bounty
on opposing players .. but I only remember him getting in hot water from the league .. after he punched out one of his own coaches on MNF ..
But, yeah, today is a different day. and I would love it if the “Aints” lost
a bunch of draft picks, as well as heavy fines and suspensions for players and coaches involved ..
And those who lied about it should be kicked out of the league
It really makes me so madd i wish there was no filter on this. I knew the AINTS were intentionally were going after alex in that game! All those bilitzes and they tried to say its necause harbaugh didnt call payton that is pure BS. I hope harper is one of those players and im 100 percent sure he is because of what he did to damien williams this year. If so he should recieved 1 4 game suspension for every payout after a 1 season ban for all of next year. That would push him to retirement on he will never play another down. The AINTS should also forfiet any post season appearance and this and next years firwt round picks. Also any player intentional injured by this bounty should sue the saints for damages. Dont blow this NFL. Rule with an iron fist and ban williams for life. Goodell dont blow it. I cant wait to see the list of players injured im sure its extensive.
I have to reluctantly agree with LC on this issue. I don’t agree that Benson didn’t know however. There isn’t an owner in the League with Plausible Deni-ability because they know what their teams are doing. Especially what their coaches do.
Eddie D. may not have made many Football related decisions but don’t think that he was not read into every decision made about his team. I don’t buy for an instant that Benson “didn’t know” until the League informed him. As obtuse as Georgia Frontierre was about the game, you know she knew what was going on with the Rams. It’s in the best interest of the Owner to know what’s going on. If they don’t know what’s going on they’ve no business even buying a Franchise.
I reluctantly agree however because I think there needs to be steps taken to make sure this NEVER happens again on any team in the league. We saw how well other teams learned from Spygate. When an ex Patriot Assistant became a Head Coach and did the same exact thing as Bellicheat. So no amount of fining system is going to put a screeching halt on a Bounty system. When the Lombardi is the prize and you’re allowed to keep it, what incentive is there to keep other teams from doing it. If I win a Lombardi by using that Bush League strategy, think I’m gonna cry off a few hundred thousand? Think my owner is going to complain? Note how Benson responded after this broke. Benson knew. He’d have to be absolutely naive not to have known.
I think what LC is suggesting is not above a reasonable punishment. Several major rules were broken. I’m not sure a Lifetime ban in all cases but Williams for sure if he did it when he was with the Redskins. Not that it helped them in the NFCEast but he has no remorse over it. That much is clear.
Williams did it with the Redskins and didn’t get caught so he went to the Aints and continued. That is why he needs to be suspended for life.
M2,
With all due respect, it is bush-league to continue to spew your venom at the Cohn family. The last time I looked, no one was being held captive against their will on this blog. If you find better reading content on the Chron or anywhere else then by all means feel free to leave. You made it clear that you wasted 2 minutes reading the LC article, why continue to punish yourself? Move on bud, move on.
Look, Grant is running a blog. Inherent in blogging is the introduction of preposterous viewpoints to trigger hits and argument. The fact that some of us counter those viewpoints while the rest of you swollow them whole is what keeps these blogs running. You aren’t actually stupid enough to believe that a few head nodders are going to support a blog like this are you?
Thanks AES, you saved me the trouble.
Haters gonna hate.
@AES : I get my news from multiple sources; you might try and do the same. It broadens your viewpoint of the world. That’s the trouble with so much of this country – people are too isolated and narrow minded. They polarize their thinking by getting all of their news from single propaganda networks like Fox News or MSNBC. I read most of the local papers and believe what seems most credible and logical, sometimes that even comes from Lowell Cohn.
M2, kudos on your heightened world view. You may want to consider backing away from what seems in your case to be an over-saturation of news. It’s obvious that it’s turning you into a sour and bitter person. Wow, I just wasted 30 seconds on this!
Have a good day sir,
Well, AES, I don’t believe that I’m bitter, just well informed and enabled to make comparisons between columnist viewpoints. I am a little surprised to be scorned for reading though, you must be a George Bush or Sarah Palin Republican. They aren’t fond of reading and “learnin” either.
I was hoping M2 you were on the independent side of life as I am. However your crack about Bush and Palin may well be justified you left out – Sign before you read it Pelosi and the lawbreaking Nobama.
@ undercenter : I’m not sure that I understand the extent of your comment. I am quite independent and vote accordingly. My Bush/Palin comment was a poorly received joke that I would have best left out of the conversation. Bush, while in office, was regularly criticized for his disinterest in reading, and Palin embarassed herself in a Katie Couric interview by not being able to name what newspapers she reads; both became the butt of jokes by late night comedians. I guess I thought I could “piggyback” on those.
yeah,its Dennis. He also was far right on Henry Schulmans the Splash blog…
I’m kind of surprised there isn’t backlash from various owners about this kind of thing. After all, they have significant investments in their players that go beyond their pocketbooks. I’m sure that if it came out that BP had a policy of destroying Shell’s oil platforms whenever they had the chance, there would be major fallout. These teams are also corporations and when you’re purposely trying to destroy the property of another corporation, I would think there would be hell to pay.
There isn’t major fallout because most if not all all teams have had such programs in one form or another, even the beloved Bill Walsh. Ronnie Lott says as much. That is why the penalties will be minimal.
But, the commissioner will make it clear that bounty programs are banned forevermore and the game will be incrementally softened just a little bit more.
Ronnie Lott was not a dirty player. Where did you get your info from? you must support it with hard facts before insinuating he played dirty!!
@Big Niner : This is a quote from an article from Sam Farmer in the LA Times: “Hall of Fame safety Ronnie Lott delivered an inspirational speech to the Saints before they played Favre’s Minnesota Vikings in the 2009 NFC championship game. He said he knew nothing of a bounty program, but said cash rewards for big plays were commonplace when he played in the 1980s and ’90s, akin to a college player getting a sticker for his helmet.” He goes on to say that the intent back then was not to cart players off, but I wouldn’t expect him to admit it if it was.
@Big Niner – Let me also say that I never said that Ronnie Lott was a dirty player; those were your words. I said that he played under a system that employed a bounty system, and he did. But whether you call it dirty or not, hitting someone so hard that you lay him out and possibly put him out of the game can be interpreted as such. Ronnie did that routinely.
Think back to the NFC semi-final round when Whitner layed out the Saints’ Pierre Thomas and put him out for the game. Everyone rooting for the Niners raved about that hit for a week, and if the 49ers had a bounty system that play would have qualified. Does that make Whitner a dirty player?
There is a big difference between players giving each other money for big hits, etc, and a coach coming in and setting up a system for it. Since this thing broke on Friday it has grown beyond New Orleans to Washington and Buffalo. And guess what the central figure in each place has been Greg Williams.
Goodell needs to send the coaches a strong message with the punishment he deals out to Greg Williams because there is no place in the game for this type of thing.
@M2
Big plays can be interceptions, fumbles forced, goal line stances and many other types of plays. He was an aggressive player for sure but not dirty. If there were bounties placed then we need proof. Money put in a pool for a defensive touchdown or any other momentum changing play is not a bounty. His woo licks were to make a statement. He rarely ever launched himself using his helmet but used what was legal at the time.
Whitner’s hit was legal by NFL standards. He never launched himself nor did he throw an elbow or forearm. The play was unfortunate for Thomas and a game changer for us. But it wasn’t on purpose now was he fined for it.
@Big Niner – You are being too naive. You are letting your fan bias get in the way of the issue. Ronnie Lott hit players hard and left many of them sprawled on the field needing assistance. Whitner does the same. The intent of those hits are to hopefully knock the ball loose, render the opponent too scared to perform at his best on repeat plays like that, or better yet to put him out of the game and improve your team’s chance to win (I think very few players actually intend any serious injury). Every coach implores his players to hit harder and harder.
I have read nothing about the Saints’ bounty program that would infer those hits had to be dirty hits, just hard incapacitating hits – the kind that Lott used to administer on a regular basis. The kind of hits that earn stars on the helmet in college and bounty payments in the pros.
I believe what the commissioner will find out is that this is so widespread amongst so many teams that he will have to moderate any possible penalties. There will be some fines, perhaps even a short-term suspension or two, but nothing so dramatic as being asked for on this blog.
@Big Niner : Not to beat a dead horse but it occurred to me that Ronnie Lott did lead with his helmet a “lot” – that is the way DB’s played in his era. That, of course, would be considered a dirty play today and is strictly penalized.
And, if it is too hard for you to consider that a 49er could actually play dirty, consider that their famed OL coach, Bobb McKittrick, was reknown for coaching leg whipping and crack-back blocks. Those were borderline illegal at the time but loosely enforced; now both of those blocks are completely illegal and they are strictly enforced. Those were considered so dirty at the time that Howie Long went after McKittrick in the tunnel after a 49er-Raider game.
Well put. As an example (not saying the Saints – or Seahawks – knocked Ginn out of the NFC Championship game): Losing Ted Ginn, Jr. for a game or two due to an opponent twisting his ankles or knees under the pile for pay is simply put, dirty. The NFL should have Jed York’s back in this case and make things right. But how? Even in cases where a ref blows an obvious call in a playoff game that leads to a loss, the NFL does not overturn the loss for the eliminated team. Compensating a team that lost a game because of an opponent’s bounty program is going to be tough to do. Can you put a price on a chance to go to the Super Bowl? Any compensation will be of little comfort for those who invested everything during the season to go to the Super Bowl. Even banning the player, the position coach, the defensive coach, the team coach, the GM and the owner, for life, would be small consolation. But, in the end, the game would be nobler as all would be competing fairly and winning based on who executed plays well and who didn’t. (Unless the ref blows the whistle too soon on questionable forward progress).
This behavior starts in high school, at least. Not bounties, but the focus on targeting and hurting individuals. I sacked our opponents QB and broke his collarbone my freshman year. He never saw me and nobody blocked me. I hit him, wrapped him and drove him into the ground. I was so excited until I turned around to see this guy screaming in pain, unable to even move his body enough to get off of his right shoulder. I waived for his coaches and waited for them to come out. I waited for a couple of minutes to see them and the EMT get him up and he was put on a cart and brought to the locker room. When my D-line coach (who was also my TE’s coach) approached me on the sidelines I thought he was happy but he ripped me a new one. He thought I was a “pu%&#” among other things because I stayed on the field to make sure the guy was okay. I was being ridiculed for doing the right thing, I was almost in tears. It made me want to hurt my coach, not the opponents. My coach apologized to me the following week and brought me McDonald’s as an olive branch, but the reality is I was being rewarded for a “good play.” Needless to say, I grew more desensitized to the brutality of the game. I was always aware of the key player(s) on the opposing teams. I didn’t want to see anybody hurt, but I understood that if they weren’t able to play it would benefit our team. That mentality takes on a life of it’s own after awhile. The NFL is like that +1000, with money involved. I think this story is the tip of the iceberg, not some isolated incident. Even Ronnie Lott referred to bounties as “commonplace.” It is part of the culture, just like steroids, HGH and other PED’s.
BigP, I agree that in some cases this type of behavior starts at the high school level, shoot in Pop Warner ball in some cases and that is sad.
In all of my time coaching I never told my team I wanted them to hurt someone. I often spoke about “punishing” the opponent and hitting them hard so that they would remember it and not be so eager to get the ball the next time. We always stressed playing hard, aggressive defense, and after you make the tackle to help them up so you could knock them down again.
We all know and understand that football is a violent game by nature, however there is no place in the game for intentionally trying to hurt the another player.
Coach Ellison of Petaluma HS retired a few years ago after a long and successful tenure. He had a habit I admired. He’d pull a player who was called for any personal foul for at least one play and talk to him about it; remind him it wasn’t OK.
That’s usually more than is called for in College or the Pros, but its good coaching at that level. My coaches didn’t do that, even back to Peewee, but its a good practice.
Now even Fisher went after Haynesworth and Schwartz confronted Suh, but too late. If they play at the edge, they’ll fall over once in a while.
Brotha, It will be interesting to see how Fisher handles this one though.
I also bet that Schwartz went after Suh more because of how that penalty hurt the team than because he might have hurt the guy.
JH,
You are right, there isn’t any place for that behavior. But it happens. Nobody wants to see somebody injured, but players are taught to play with an aggressiveness that leads to injuries. They are asked to knock the crap out of people. You coached and said yourself, “In all of my time coaching I never told my team I wanted them to hurt someone. I often spoke about “punishing” the opponent and hitting them hard so that they would remember it and not be so eager to get the ball the next time.” Of course you didn’t say “I want you to hurt someone.” You did however, say that you spoke to your players about “punishing” their opponent. That is the perfect example of the football culture I was talking about.
BigP, As you know football is a violent game by nature with bodies colliding on every play and if you don’t teach players to run through people, ie the term “punish” they are likely to hurt themselves.
What Williams has done isn’t about that though, it is all about hurting someone which is outright wrong.
I think we are getting at the same point, correct? Play hard, and physical but instructing your players to hurt someone is uncalled for and should be punished severely.
JH,
You never want to see someone injured, I agree. I agree with your outlook on coaching as well. I just think this behavior is a lot more common then most people realize, even if it is between players. I’m sure you have had to reign players in (probably even coaches) during your years of coaching. It is a very physical and emotional sport. At the NFL level you have grown men with millions of dollars at stake, this type of thing has been going on forever. It will continue to go on. The Saints just happened to have a pissed off former player that ratted them out. To me, there is little difference between receiving a bounty reward in the pros and getting a sticker on your helmet for a sack or forced fumble in High School. As a coach, I’m sure you can see my point.
@BigP
Rewards and incentives are OK in school, pro sports and business. If a player has incentives for total QB sacks, that’s not a bounty because its not personal. Yeah, go out and get as many sacks as you can. Great. Not the same as let’s mess up #19 and put him out of the game.
Brotha tuna,
I agree with you, but the reality is that people do try to hurt people in football. This behavior (bounties) is not that uncommon. It really isn’t. If a RB has a sprained knee or ankle and decides to play at less than 100%, where do you think opponents are going to target him? If a QB is sitting back in the pocket with cracked ribs, where are opponents going to try and hit him? The perfect example of this is Kyle Williams in the playoffs. The Giants players were informed of his concussion history and were instructed to hit him hard.
“The thing is, we knew he had four concussions, so that was our biggest thing, was to take him outta the game,” said Jacquian Williams, who forced the second fumble, in overtime, to set up New York’s game-winning field goal.
“He’s had a lot of concussions,” said Devin Thomas, who recovered both fumbles. “We were just like, ‘We gotta put a hit on that guy.’” Later in the same interview, he told the Newark Star-Ledger that teammate and backup safety Tyler Sash “did a great job hitting him early and he looked kind of dazed when he got up. I feel like that made a difference and he coughed it up.”
These guys were trying to hurt Williams for their own gain. That type of behavior is commonplace in football. Do you think the Niners defensive players don’t take pride in knocking RB’s out of the game? Greg Williams is in the wrong and deserves to be punished, but the NFL knows this thing happens all the time. The bounty money is a gimmick attached to the normal behavior of players, but it doesn’t change the behavior.
Your coach took you to McDonald’s as an olive branch? Sounds more like he was trying to kill you.
Very poignant story, Big P.
Ex, LMAO!! “Sorry for sending the wrong message. Here you go kid, have this heart attack in a sack to make up for it.”
Lol! That was pretty funny. He was actually a good guy and felt bad about the way he reacted. He just brought a couple of burgers for me before practice, which was after school. I wish my body burned calories like it did back then, that’s for sure.
I agree with your Dad. Those responsible with the Saints should be banned from the NFL for life. I’m not sure Roger Goodell can man up and do it though. I don’t see where he really has a choice.
I agree with Lowell on the lifetime ban, however I think that it should be noted that this is more a Greg Williams problem then a NO Saints problem.
The pay for pain bounties follow him back to his previous stop with the Redskins as well. The guy is a scumbag and does not deserve to be a part of the NFL.
Goodell needs to step up and make an example of him so that this type of activity does not exist.
A lifetime ban would be appropriate…it would importanr enforce such a ban if the NFL can prove that players were seriously hurt as a result of this “bounty” and ESPECIALLY if someone’s career ended or was cut short as a result.
The thing that worries me is that this discovery may turn out to be only the tip of the ice-berg.
Players from the Redskins and Bills are now coming out about GW’ (to put it more clear), ‘blood money.’ I would be interested in knowing which players may have actually received payment for hurting an opposing player. These players also need to receive some form of disciplinary action. I expect Goddell’ response to be very ‘harsh’ against those players found guilty as well as the teams that allowed this behavior to fester.
Because the ugly trail from this revelation is giving GW and teams he coached such a bad mark, Williams would do well to immediately step down from all football related activities although he still could (and should) receive punishment.
In the wake of players and owners agreeing not to go with an 18 game schedule (at least one of many CBA agreements) because it would pose a hazard to player’s health, this whole ‘bounty’ issue stinks on many levels by the players and owners (at least on teams coached by Williams).
Why aren’t there criminal charges against these coaches? In a sport where players use their helmets and can rip the facemask of your head, why aren’t there more consequences being taken?
Just like hockey when someone uses their stick to clubs the other player, all coaches need lifetime bans, the teams need to lose 1st round draft picks and the teams need huge fines of the 10 million type, donating the money to the veterans players of the medical foundation for head injuries.
Of course the defense wants to crack down on this. Take a look at everything they have done… defensive players can’t lunge at qb while on the ground (so basically no hitting below the knees), can’t hit a qb high, can’t hit a wr high if he is attempting to catch a pass, and can’t horsecollar an offensive player.
When you look at this and see the amount defenders are fined for illegal hits (which are often judgement calls) when compared to their offensive counterparts, why not have something like this to help keep the intensity high. No one said these hits were for cheap shots, and the reward for knocking someone out is most certainly not as high as the NFL fine would be for a cheapshot so it can’t be that motivational.
Running backs often take their linemen out after they had a big game so whats wrong db’s pooling money to reward someone for a game changing hit or int. Trust me when I say Db’s want to do this anyways, otherwise you wouldn’t always hear Ronnie Lott talking about Woooo hits, and yes while no one wants to hurt another player severely I’ve never met a defensive player who wouldn’t have enjoyed knocking out a running back or wide receiver.
John, the issue isn’t player’s celebrating big hits, or even paying each other. The issue here is that you have a coach starting it with each team he is associated with. That’s a big difference.
First let me say I do not condone that type of behavior and when caught should be punished. But lets be clear. NFL Football is a violent sport. This has been going on from the beginning. You’ll never completely control Controlled violence. Somepeople are just TOO competitive to their immoral demise.
Yes. But if you don’t maintain an unrelenting attempt to damp it down, it evolves into something you won’t like.
My greatest fear is that the final punishment WON’T fit the crime. That will upset me. Those who saw Daryl Stingley (rest his soul) get hit, would, like me, have the replay suddenly come alive again. And that hit was determined a clean “football” hit. So the thought of players going out of their way to go above and beyond and be “more” destructive is, in a word, sickening.
I think that if you look again at the Stingley tragedy, film, you will see that Stingley either recoiled from the hit he saw coming by putting his head down or his awkward position drove his head down. Whichever it was, his head was driven into Tatum’s shoulder, resulting in his fracture.
Sad, tragic, but clean and possibly Stingley’s fault.
When I saw it live at the game, I thought Stingley had put his head down. The film is not definitive, but it is clearly a clean hit.
Bush and Palin. Now you are really going off topic. But that is what well informed people do right? They make assertions that consistently miss the mark.
@AES : No, they hit the mark; it is just that uninformed people cannot see it.
But I have to go now; it’s been fun playing with you though.
Please stop me from laughing. What’s the big deal, Hit Squads? Getting the opposing teams beat player out of the game is Football 101. There will be lawyers on the sidelines who will determine if hits are legal and there will be a litigation box where the lawyers face off. And the police will handcuff the player that is too violent while in uniform. Many players back down when intimidated or hit too many times, this is the reality of the game. But wait a second, that reality is changing, Arena Football, I’ve seen the Light.
Watch the second half of the Giants-49er NFC Championship game, Eli was manhandled and pounded. Patrick, Cowboy, Aldon Smith, Brooks, Ray, Dashon, Soap, Navarro, now that’s a hit squad.
Agreed.
Andrew: I understand your frustration, but I think your argument only works if you eliminate all safety rules. Clipping, late hits, face mask violations and blows to the head are among these. Once you admit any safety rule the question becomes what type and level of violence you are going to allow.
The NFL has a serious problem with concussions. A single concussion is a serious injury. For the potential effects of many concussions, check out Mohammed Ali. Certainly football will always produce concussions, but trying to limit them is a valid goal.
I suspect that requiring that the first part of a player’s helmet to contact another player be the face mask would help.
@drsgrosse
I guess my main grievance is that the game I grew up watching is changing or evolving. We have grown up with a collision sport, now the physical impact exceeds the limit that the human body can tolerate. Once players have to hold back, especially on defense, the nature of the game, as we know it, becomes something else. Maybe the size and speed of the players is too great. Donatari Poe is 346 lbs. and he ran a 4.96 40, he can be classified as a lethal weapon.
Boxing was the most popular sport for decades, far exceeding football, but the American public now finds it too barbaric. I’ve stated many times that Arena Football is the direction the sport is going toward. No big stadiums to maintain, padded sidelines, shortened fields, offense rules. The generation that’s grows up watching it will think it’s the greatest. And for them it will be.
@drsgrosse & Andrew
Points well made. I think most agree that paralysis or long term brain injury is the type of extreme injury we’d like to see players protected from. Mike Ditka, a guy with some cred on NFL play, said that the players have learned to use their equipment as a weapon. If they didn’t have face masks they would be a little less willing to lead with their noggin. In the next sentence he admitted that the idea would never happen, but he did identify a root cause.
Andrew is right though, how do you play this game at this level half-assed? Defensive players have these small target areas for hits, but the FB or the RB can blast into a D player and lead with their helmet.
It raises the question of realistic enforcement as well as what it will do to the game.
I think there are a number of measures that can be taken to protect players from the severity and number of serious injuries that seem to have taken place with greater and greater frequency over the 6+ decades I have been a football fan. I bet the NFL could do a lot without altering the nature of the game.
Facemask first as outlined above.
Requiring tacklers to attempt to wrap up ball carriers would be another.
I think we would still see big hits, but not the brutal kind we see now.
Enforcement has to be stricter. James Harrison needs to lose a year and an additional year’s pay. I like Mike Tomlin a lot, but it’s his job to control Harrison and he obviously not taking that job seriously. He needs a year off too. With those kind of penalties and a couple of rule changes, the problem might
Whoops!! the problem might just be mitigated quickly.
For those of you that have not reached a pain threshold yet, the NFL Network has the 92 NFC Championship on now.
Don’t you live on a Himalayan plateau?
I’m presently in Delhi, however, Rishikesh is at the foothills of the Himalayas, mountains all around and the Ganges river is right outside my door. Reception is not bad, this year I’ve been able to watch every 49er game.
Ricky Watters was an elite back. How did we let him walk?
He wanted to be the main man, the feature back and took the bait from Phili, little did he know that he was great because of the 49 er system.
Steve Young always complained about that! He said he understood roster turnover, but don’t let someone walk w/o a clear and adequate replacement option. He meant Ricky Waters. Loville, bless his heart, wasn’t.
IMO the losses of Haley and then Waters took the niners out of contention due to lack of even partial replacement at value. Look at E.Davis. After Haley left, ED became a ‘dog’. No chance it was lack of pass pressure. So we let him get away to Charlotte and he
goes to the Playoffs and the ProBowl. Rickey W. talked a lot of trash, even to his f.o., but neither he nor the team were the same after he left.
A friend who’s a Philly fan has always said to me that we got the more out of Charlie Garner than they got out of Waters. He’d also like to give T.O. Back to us, just to mess me up!
Brotha, losing Haley had nothing to do with Davis leaving for Carolina. Haley was traded in ’92 and Davis didn’t leave until the mid ’90′s. Don’t you remember him setting the tone in the ’94 championship game by picking off Aikman for the pick 6 on their opening possession.
C’mon man, brush up on 9ers history.
@Jack.
Guilty with an explanation:
I liked Davis as a CB and I just remember him taking a lot of criticism around here and I thought a good bit of it was undeserved. I guess the point I was trying to make was about losing Haley w/out a fallback. Now we all remember that Charles was a problem, but we missed him. Likewise, Ricky left for the big bucks and SF didn’t react effectively.
These days there’s more likely a plan. For example, TKO. Baalke made an offer, Spikes passed and left, but TB knew he had Bowman. Then he picked up Larry Grant cheap. He had a plan.
Brotha, you are so correct. It is good to see they finally have a plan again. Times are looking good.
Davis was a very good CB, who got bet up locally because Alvin Harper just owned him. That’s why the acquisition of Deion was so instrumental in getting them past the Cowboys. It allowed then to line up Deion 1 on 1 with Harper and Davis with some help over the top on Michael Irvan.
I liked ED too and wished he stayed here. It is really good to hear him on the radio broadcasts these days.
@Andrew
Ricky was awesome in the playoff run during the last Super Bowl. But his attitude was horrible and he thought he was better than he was.
Craig never thought that, and he was better than Watters.
But, the Niners did make a mistake then for letting Watters go and not having a viable alternative in his place. That error cost the Niners at least 1 more Lombardi Trophy I think even more so than letting Deion Sanders walk.
Actually Watters was a pretty damn good Back. But the Igglets were Dallas’s doormat more than they were a playoff contender during the 90s’. Then Watters went to Seattle. Can’t really fault RW for two fairly average teams not being contenders. One man cannot do it all.
Well that’s kind of untrue, since Williams obviously did it all in the Championship game. ;)
@Andrew:
Ricky Watters was an elite back. How did we let him walk?
As I remember it, Carmen Policy outsmarted himself. He spent too much time and focus on driving up the price for Deion Sanders in an effort to force the Cowboys to overspend to sign him. After the 1994 season, the 49ers had the cap space to re-sign Watters, maybe enough space to re-sign Sanders, and definitely not enough space for both. I remember that it seemed like a foregone conclusion that Deion was going to Dallas because they were going to be able to offer him the most $. anyway, re-signing Ricky Watters early would have clued the Cowboys that SF wasn’t going to compete for Sanders, and Jerry Jones would not have had to offer as much $ for Deion.
Unfortunately, Policy dicked around for too long, Watters signed with Philly, and the 49ers had to go into the ’95 season with Derek Loville. Uggh.
Watters yards per carry…
’92 4.9
’93 4.6
’94 3.7…and no longer elite.
Yeah, dude Haley was gone before Davis. I remember Davis picking us off in his first game against the Niners when he was in Carolina with Seifert. I remember hearing Haley had it out for us when we let Lott walk!!! He wasnt happy and made us pay in the early 90′s… with the loss of multiple NFC championships.
Brent jones’s impression of Waters in the huddles, ” as if he was clearing his voice and tuning it, Me me me meeeee…..” ricky always wanted the ball, always!!
we would have won again the following year had we kept him. Remember the playoff game against GB with Adam Walker and his huge cast? no running game, a predictable short passing game, allowed them to flood the zones and blitz like crazy. I remember Butler lining up at the line of scrimmage alot. That’s the game where we were down 21-0 in the first quarter!!! we were never able to recover.
Ricky’s departure was the beggining of the end. Even Steve young admitted to that.
you cant give williams any more punishment than belichick received. one has to do with player safety the other the integrity of the game
Disagree old coach.
One has to do with stealing the answer sheet from the teacher to get an A. The other has to do with putting out a bounty on the teacher to take them out.
i think its more than stealing the answer sheet its game fixing. a better analogy is 2 students competeing for one spot at stanford. one cheats and gets in over the other one. its serious. your right safety is most important but the integrity of the game has to be placed pretty high also
eric davis didnt leave the 9ers because the team didnt want him or because he wanted to leave. their salary cap situation was so bad they had to cut 6 or 7 players just to get under the cap. rice took a pay cut just so the 9ers could have a full roster. if rice had’nt taken the large pay cut the 49ers would have had to play with a smaller roster than the rest of the nfl
wow you write everything on the site?
All this is going to do is make this once great game more softer. The rules now are a joke, high school and pee wee football hits harder. The saints mistake was placing money down. I know defensive players if given the chance would still want to take out other players. It’s still football to them!
@md
No. The joke was when TB got hurt for that one year, and before the next game, that type of hit would incur a 15 yard penalty.
Where was that kind of immediate rule change when JM was laying on the turf like a corpse in that 1986(?) Giants playoff game? That is how you know East Coast Bias exists and is as strong as ever.
That hit TB took has happened a million times. And other QB’s got hurt. But if TB is out for a year, the whole NFL world crumbles, and they have to prevent that from ever happening again.
Doesn’t matter when or who it stared because of. It’s a joke. These overrated stats Qb’s are putting up now are because you can’t play as physical as before. Defenseless recievers? Wtf! It’s a joke! Defenses were always taught to put a hurting on an offensive player. I don’t know if the saints were being dirty, but the plays I see being replayed were clean hits. If they were being dirty I can agree they should be suspended or fined. But it looks like incentives to hit and play hard. Putting money Down was the wrong way to go.
I thought the QB hit rule came in response to the Carson Palmer injury.
I agree with the lifetime ban…who cares if it puts the Saints in the toilet? Eddie D lost the Niners for what I consider to be a far less offense (intentionally hurting players is much more egregious than the gaming issue) and look what it did to our team. Our team was in franchise purgatory for the past 10 years, our sentence was to be given some of the worst owners in all of sports. Since the Saints owner apparently wasn’t involved, their downfall won’t be as epic as the Niners…considering the offense though, it should be worse.
I’m totally against any kind of “Bounty” incentive on NFL players. But would totally support that program for some of the Media including Sport Writers.
BTW-You all remember my Larry Krueger posts when “Kreugs” (Kruegsys?..knbr speak) called for the 49ers to hurt Drew Brees-and how I thought that was lowest pondscum radio sports talk? Ahead of the curve again
I thought Pork Buns would like that..he knows my Stanisms are worth reading…
BTW2..Looks like turmoil on the Raddy show..that unhappy producer hasnt been seen or heard for days..
Stan, You are a GENIUS, absolute GENIUS!!!!
Please,you embarrass me..and could you say it a little louder next time?
btw-I was right about that Producer…how do I do it?
YOU ARE A FREAKIN’ GENIUS STAN!! We all wish to be as clever as you one day.
Lee Hammer?
No-Holer the producer on the Raddy show..suspended or fired? not sure yet.
Hasnt had a raise in FIVE YEARS..
Seems like all the “significant” deals are getting done. Lynch locked up, Stevie J locked up, Foster, locked up. Seems like the significant players are either locked up or franchise tagged at this point.
I’d like to see Josh Morgan locked up. If he goes to open market we will lose him. What I do not want are two brand new receivers on the team. We all know Alex doesn’t build chemistry and trust very quickly with receivers….
Haters gonna hate.
Claude, What did Bay say that was not true. It has been well chronicled that AS needs to feel comfortable to excel. Are you now saying that you know more about AS than Urban Meyer? He was the first one to make that statement about AS when he was coming out of Utah.
Jack,
let it go. If Claude can’t find something to copy and paste, then he’ll resort to name calling….
@Jack:
It’s not about truth; it’s about bay’s obsession with Alex Smith. It’s just about the only topic he posts about. Even in completely unrelated threads, he takes shots at Smith.
There was no point to his comment other than the shot at Smith. Do you recall any prior comments from bay waxing on about the importance of re-signing Josh Morgan? I don’t. Now, it’s suddenly an imperative?
Claude, Again I ask you, what did Bay say that wasn’t true?
@Jack:
Nothing, why? Did I suggest something was untrue?
Then why the hater comment? I generally agree with you when it comes to Bay, but if you over use it when the situation doesn’t call for it you will lessen its value.
@Jack:
I thought my 11:26 comment explained why I used “hater.”
I actually thank Claude. See I am not an Alex Smith fan. And Claude’s obsessive behavior in terms of picking through my postings has actually helped me be more accurate with the details that I provide.
Less opinion and more critique backed up by solid facts. This isn’t difficult for me since the majority of Smith’s career in the NFL has been sub par. The history and the stats are on my side. The issue I have with Claude is that when I do back up what I say with facts ( which is easy to do with Smith ) he then resorts to name calling. Pretty petty Claude… Oh and Claude has hitched his wagon to DSL’s, so if you rip on her, you get an ear full too…..
What do you know! Here’s fraud again. With nothing but a “hater” comment. Nothing to argue the facts Bay just stated. Fraud and pbl. Two nerds that know nothing about football. Still have nothing fraud! Let’s see you debate what he wrote.
@bayarea……I agree
Bay, We still have a week, and a lot can happen in that time. I agree that it would be great to see J Morgan back, and I think that even if he hits the open market we will be able to keep him as long as we offer close to the other teams. I think he will see the value in playing for a winner compared to the Jaguars.
Speaking on this fact like a did last week be prepared for onelame and porky to be on here next. It just kills them that smith is not priority #1. I don’t know why. They have trusted in the front office when they backed smith and now they can’t trust that they will get it done after wrapping up more important pieces first. These 3 aren’t 49er fans. They are just lonely nerds that need to be heard or need to pick back since they felt it their whole lives and couldnt do it in person.
Bay don’t take blame for your opinion. The smith camp had never backed their opinions with fact. Just excuses. And it’s become a debate about excuses NOT production or facts. There would be no debates if that were the case. Just cross your fingers that smith will improve this next year coming. Rings cure all problems.
@Grant: I already gave my two cents on this BountyGate above. So now I share something that I think is interesting and maybe Grant can dig into for a story: Why are so many NFL players all of a sudden firing their agent, Drew Rosenhaus? The list so far includes: OT Bryant McKinnie, OT Jared Gaither, OT Anthony Davis, LB London Fletcher, S Dashon Goldson, RB LaSean McCoy, WR Jason Hill, RB Willis MacGahee and more…. Can you find out why, Grant? Thanks.
@OpenMinded:
Wow, I did not realize it was so many. You say this has happened “all of a sudden.” Over what time period did those firings occur?
@Claude: McKinnie, Goldson and McGahee are in the past month. McCoy last September. I don’t want to start a rumor because I’m not in the loop but I’m just curious if there is a story behind this activity.
@OpenMinded:
Thanks. I share your curiosity. That seems like an unusual number of clients to depart in a short time. Then again, Rosenhaus has more clients than most agents, so the number could be proportionally appropriate.
I understand your desire not to start a rumor.
Been thinking about this “bounty” thing the Saints had going on. I’ve been involved in sports as a player and as a coach. I’ve always seen different ways to motivate. When I played football our coach used to give us cross bones stickers if we laid out a “woooo” hit. Now I’m not defending the Saints by any means, what Williams did was cheap and classless. However, I feel that whatever the Saints did to motivate its players shouldn’t really matter as long as the refs are doing their jobs making sure the players are playing according to the rules laid out by the NFL.
If the players were trying to lay someone out, but they did it within the rules of the game ( legal hits ) then I say let them play. It’s a violent sport and the players know that. Now if the hits are not legal. Late hits, head shots, knee shots then that is a different story. That is the responsibility of the refs to catch that. And it is the responsibility of the league to catch it when reviewing game film after the games. JMHO.
Whether Gregg Williams promoted or demanded the “kill shots” is only part of the issue. The players who followed through in fear of falling on the depth chart or voluntarily followed orders for more cash is also only partial. The refs not calling the cheap shots is another (like prison guards looking the other way on the inmates fights). The mentality seems to be: twist Frank Gore’s ankles and knees, get him out of this game, “don’t think too much about how you will affect his career”, get paid for it, don’t get caught, hope the league doesn’t catch it in their review, hope next week’s bounty is not on you and it’s not your cartilage that gets mangled. Sheesh! Do High School coaches give out helmet stickers for this behavior? ANd if you don’t get caught is it okay?
I’m not calling it ok. I’m just saying that to a degree it’s cultural. Every defense takes the field trying to take a guy out legally.
As a society we love the “knock out” shot. Boxing, we love the knock out. Football, when Donte Whitner knocked Pierre Thomas out, the stadium went nuts. Vicious hits, but legal. What I am saying is that if the activity is illegal, the refs and the film guys need to come down hard on that type of activity.
But trust me, rewards for big hits are extremely common.
Amen!
Let me make clear that my “Amen” was intended for the post by “bayareafanatic”, not that which followed.
big hits are part of the game but paying players for a cart off is not reasonable.
Coach,
totally agree. But read this article by Bucky Brooks. It speaks to the “culture” I mentioned. Let’s not be naive. We all knew this went on to a degree right?
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8275bb0f/article/saints-pay-for-performance-system-commonplace-in-nfl
Bay, you and Brooks are both missing the main issue here. While it may be common for players to participate in this kind of activity, it is not common for a coach to be the ring leader.
The coaches are held to a higher standard as leaders, and Williams’ punishment for failing to act as a leader should be severe.
We all know that football is a violent game, but there is no place in it for a coach who condones this type of thing, and has a proven track record doing it at other stops as well.
@ bay- I agree with you on this 100%. As long as these hits are within the rules of the game-it is what it is. I cannot believe we are this naive as a society. Giving incentive for malicously injuring someone is reprehensible. That being said, big hits are encouraged and celebrated in the NFL. Football players are paid to make plays. Often times for defensive players, this means hitting someone as hard as you legally can. If a player is carted off, because of the hit-it’s part of the game.
We can all have our opinions on this thing will get really messy for Williams.
Tony Dungy traced Manning’s neck injury back to a 2006 play against Williams’ Redskins defense.
Straight from NFL.com, “During a 2011 preseason edition of NBC’s “Football Night in America,” the former Indianapolis Colts coach pointed to a violent shot that Manning took against the Washington Redskins during the 2006 season as the origin of the quarterback’s neck issues. Williams was the defensive coordinator of that Redskins team.”
When you start messing with the guys that are the faces of the league Goodell isn’t afraid to bring out the eh hmm, hammer.
Williams should be charged criminally. It’s no different than hiring thugs to strongarm someone. This was a conspiracy to reward people for committing assault and battery. No better way to get their attention than a few jail sentences. Williams and Payton should pay big-time.
How many of these hits were outside the rules of the game? Maybe Goodell should be imprisoned for presiding over a league that is built on assault and battery. Almost every tackle on the field would be considered assault on the street. Maybe we should have a constitutional amendment abolishing football?
first gay marriage now football the conservetives are ruining it for everybody
@ old coach- Yeah, gays should have the right to be miserable just like everyone else :) In all fairness though, there are plenty of knee-jerk lawmaking killjoys on the left.
jack tatums hit on daryl stingley was totally legal and as horrible as the result was i defended tatum [even though i hated the raiders] but if later i had heard that tatum had received a bounty for the hit i think i would have felt differently
How do you feel about Whitner’s hit on Thomas? I think it was clean. It happened without a “bounty” that we are aware of. It was a huge play in that game, stopped NO’s momentum and set the tone. Donte Whitner did his job to perfection on that play. The job he is paid to do.
it was a hell of a hit and totally legal
Would he or could he have even hit him harder if there was a bounty? The fact is that players are rewarded for those hits. Delibrately trying to injure other players is wrong, but players are taught to hurt the other guy lest they be hurt. It is part of the game that I love.
9er life both sides are equally guilty i was joking
Check out MM of Comcast latest Alex Smith negotiationshttp://bleacherreport.com/tb/bfrzh?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=san-francisco-49ers.
Neal,
It’s crazy that JH talked all this elite, clutch, pro bowl,franchise, long term crap while referring to Smith. So now Smiths agent says that if you guys want Smith back, give him a 6 year 60 million dollar deal with 24 million guaranteed?
These clowns that think Smith is gonna sign for crumbs are nuts. He has an agent. He is a football player. He’s gonna want what he believes is market value for his services. JH has already blew enough Smoke up Smith’s behind for Smith to believe it.
Does Smith believe what JH has been telling him? Does Smith think he’s elite,clutch, a pro bowler? Coypu think we have a snag with that contract?? I said it last week. Why not wait to see what’s up with Manning if Smith wants 10 million a year?
I said it already. We don’t need to hurry to sign Smith. If we think he wants too much money, let him test free agency like you did Goldson and everyone else last year. Like you plan on doing with Rogers this year. Why is Smith any different.
If you were Smith, would you sign a deal for less money just because it’s with the Niners?? I guess this is about to get very interesting.
I know this. If he was that elite he would have been signed by now first and foremost. Like the saints did with Brees. That’s just fact. But 3 idiots on here just can’t grasp that fact. Buajahahah
@Jordan,
Can’t say I disagree with one word you say, it is actually very fascinating, Smith wants to be paid market value, 6 years at 10 million a season, no other team would even kick the tires with Smith as a free agent with that much money. More like a two year deal at 3 million per season at best. Harbaugh started a fire when he called Smith a elite QB, and the agent will use that to his advantage. The Niners want to use and see what they have in Kaep in the next two years and where does this put Smith. I would love to see Smith hit the free agent market and he will recognize that he is nothing but Harbaugh pet rock, with zero interest.
@Neal I usually don’t respond to this stuff, but I feel your dislike/hatred of A. Smith is affecting your judgment. If you think its a good idea for Smith to check out the market if he thinks he’s worth that much compared to what the Niner’s might be offering, then that is fine. However, I don’t know how you think Smith is only worth an offer of 3 million per year at best? Even veteran backup QBs get more than this amount, and Smith was paid 4-5 million last year already. Do you seriously think he would be offered less after a decent/solid season last year as a started for a playoff team? I don’t have an delusions of Smith being elite, but he was average/slightly above average last year and Harbaugh is just spouting stuff to build his confidence. At least be objective about it, and don’t be blinded by hate. Discuss about football, instead of continuing to bring Smith up each and every article here.
Neal,
I would think that other teams might offer Smith 5-6 million a year. Other GM’s will call him a system QB and cite the years before JH came along and Tailred an offense to suit Smiths game.
Other GM’s will also be worried that he couldn’t possibly repeat the feat of last season without that defense and special teams. I also think JH has to know that you don’t give smith a long term deal at 6 years 60 million and still make Kaeperninck and Tolzien think that there really will be a QB competition. That doesnt make sense at all and I wouldn’t allow JH to lead me down that path if I were Kaepernick. Especially if Kaepernick thinks he really can win the starting job, like he’s talking like he can.
I personally think JH spoke way too soon about his unsigned QB. He should take the same approach to free agency as he did with all of his free agents. Say nothing and let Trent handle the negotiations.
I still say we look around. If we are doing what is in the best interest of the team, we need due diligence to run it’s course. Do we have a better option??
@ Jordan,
I don’t have a better idea, but I am just wondering if Smith would sign a 3 year deal at about 8 million a year, or do we go with Kaep, Tolzien and if we can get Johnson from Tampa Bay, who I believe is Restricted free agent, that would be my preference and not sign Smith at all. JH has the same warm thought with Johnson as he does with Smith.
You guys are very amusing to read. Neal has Smith making 3 mill, Jordo has him at 5-6 mill, meanwhile backups in this league make 4 mill and Kevin Kolb who had all of 7 starts got a contract averaging over 10 mill for the next 4 years and 21 mill guaranteed. Ryan Fitzpatrick got 24 mill guaranteed. If you’re going to talk about this subject at least do it intelligently.
Maiocco said months ago that the terms being discussed were 2-3 years at anywhere from 8-11 mill per, and winning 13 games and a playoff game isn’t going to push his value down.
Rocket, Intelligence? Please remember whom you are speaking to. These scholars have the intellect of a lab rat when it comes to discussing football. When was the last time you saw Jordan post something that did not involve ripping AS?
I can’t Jack, that’s the problem. Jordo is a one trick pony now. He used to have a decent post once in awhile but now it’s just Smith Bashing adnauseum.
@ Michael,
I don’t hate Smith, that is a Smither’s term, I just think we can do better, and better is having Smith signed for a short term contract, maximum of 3 years is good to me. Also I agree 6 million per season is more like it.
I know it sounds like I am flip flopping, bu I would not mind if we did sign Smith for 3 years as a insurance policy as we know football contracts are not guaranteed but don’t think the agent will go for it although if he does sign we can cut him loose anytime and wait for Kaep or Johnson if we get him up to playing par.
@Neal It might not quite be the level of hatred. But, reading some of your posts, it has gone beyond more than simple disapproval of Smith’s performance. The tone of your posts has gotten a bit more personal, especially when you suggested he was worth 3 mil per year, which is quite unreasonable with any logic. I think he is worth 6-8 mil per year, and he probably is a shorter term solution for now, but I can’t say for certain he can’t become a longer term solution either. I am in the middle regarding Smith. I don’t think he will reach any elite status, but he can be a very good QB if given a chance. If he can improve even more this year, then we can look at if there is a long term future for him.
For those interested, ESPN is currently running a round table discussion on the ‘Bounty’ issue.
@9erforlife. i’m not thinking about the kind of hit whitner made i’m thinking about the 2nd guy in going for the knees etc on hits like whitners theres no time to think its reaction. most goods hits are. a player might get paid a bounty but thats not what he was thinking about when he made the hit. most penalized hits arent dirty plays they may be illegal but the intention isnt there. i’m more concerned with a play where the player has time to think and intentionally tries to end someones game….or career
I hear you old coach. I agree that those types of hits have no place in the game. Those are dirty terrible plays, that no player with a shred of decency would make or condone. However, to the best of my knowledge, that is not the type of thing Williams’ players were paid for. A hit like Whitner’s would have garnered a bonus from what I understand.
Players like R.Lott, Chuck Ceceil, and Doug Plank had the mental make-up to play hard and hit with reckless abandon. Today, Troy Palamolo is that type of player. They wreaked havoc simply by their style of play. Jack Tatum and the Steelers Mel Blount could be put in the same catagory.
A case could be made for Deacon Jones who used his forearm as a fly-swatter against opposing linemen.
Point: While their play was based on fear and intimidation, I venture to say that they would have considered it an insult to be paid a bounty for headhunting.
What G.Williams did was pure and simple; CRIMINAL. And any player who participated in this should be punished as well. Like I said yesterday, this may only prove to be the tip of the ice-berg. Harsh penalties must result if football is to keep it’s integrity. Greg Williams will likely be banned from football and prosecuted in court. Players who participated should sit out for four games. Teams who knowingly allowed this should lose draft picks and pay substantial fines.
if goodell was truely concerned with the integrity of the game he would have suspended belichick for a yr or 2 for blatantly cheating and as someone who occasionally wagers on a game i beleive his behaviuor bordered on game fixing
I’ll give you an example of dirty that cannot be condoned in the NFL. Remember the guy that hit Kyle Williams while he was on the ground defenseless? That should have been a huge fine and suspension…. Was it the Seahawks game?
Bay,
What’s up with the Smith contract extension?? What do you think the holdup is?
Great point, old coach.
Belicheck basically received a slap on the wrist. I hope Goodell sets a precedent with this matter because injuring an opposing player for pay exceeds the boundries of football because it carries criminal and legal ramifications.
Goodell cannot tread lightly on this one.
What criminal??? Players (not coaches) were pooling thier own money and rewarding someone for knocking someone out. Its a player run performance based pay system that a coach knew about and I will guarentee you it goes on in a lot more locker rooms than the ones run by Gregg Williams. Also I might have a problem if players were getting paid for cheapshots but they were rewarding players for making big plays ie interceptions and big hits. Its basically a performance based play bonus and a small one that wont be as bad as the fine for hitting a defenseless receiver or two hand touching a qb.
Give me a break if the NFL has a serious problem players creating thier own performance based play bonus system then maybe they should give guaranteed contracts and not incentive laden ones so they wouldn’t look like the pot calling the kettle black (especially when they sell dvd’s like the NFL’s greatest hits).
I wonder if everyone who wants Williams’ bannished from the league, prosecuted, or the Saints to give up 10 1st round picks would feel the same if it were Fangio and the 9ers. By no means am I supporting GW’s actions, but I think some people are getting a little carried away. Most former or current players who have weighed in say something similar to this is commonplace. It is embedded into the culture of the league. If you hurt the other teams’ star players, your chances of winning are improved. These guys really don’t need extra incentive to lower the boom-they want to already.
If someone can show me that teams coached by GW sent more opposing players to the locker room than the average NFL defense, than by all means nail him to the wall. Otherwise, hand down a stiff penalty like that given to Bellichek/NE and move on. That would be enough to show the league (and more importantly the public) that this will not be tolerated.
I speak for myself only, but if the 49ers were/are guilty of this, I would not only welcome, but expect disciplinary action.
Football is a contact sport, not a contract for injury sport. Punish all the perpetrators or change the NFL brand to NFL/MMA.
Chuck Noll of the Steelers once said that the pre-Los Angeles Raiders epoused a ‘criminal element’ type mindset. And this was back in the 70.’
So the concerns were prevelent even back then. My hope is that the bounty system only effected a few teams and was not widely used across the league. Hopefully this does not blow-up like the Baseball ‘HGH’ culture of 10 years ago.
Just the Saints ,the Giants have been doing this and getting away with it for the longest time,its the only way they can win. How about that Goodel stop looking away from this’ or do the Giants rate special treatment?
Football is becoming civilized.
@Andrew
“Football is becoming civilized.”
While the fans and bloggers are losing their civility.
@DS
I say this in a completely derogatory and sarcastic way.
“Lions defensive tackle Ndamukong Suh, who was suspended for two games this season for stomping on an opponent and has been fined frequently by the NFL for rough play, insisted Sunday his team had no bounty program.”
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2012/03/02/sports/s122321S87.DTL#ixzz1oIlReRCx
Yeah. So either Suh is just naturally a horrible human being (see AR stomping on Thanksgiving Day no less) or he is lying.
When I look at that Lions HC, he has the same superior attitude that the Saints HC has. Same cry-baby attitude. NO when JH didn’t consult with him about the first pre-season game, and Detroit with the handshake.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2012/03/02/sports/s122321S87.DTL#ixzz1oIlReRCx
Aha! DS, now this is interesting stuff!
There was one writer at least who thought it was suspicious that Suh mentioned a bounty program and said there’d be more to follow at some point in the near future…
Wow. Lotta comments. I stopped reading when I got to BrothaTuna’s:
“As I write this I’m thinking lifetime ban may be too extreme, but a significant ban that could be lifted later by the Commish a la Vick and Plax; PLUS other suspensions of lesser participants and definitely Draft Choice penalties. It has to be overwhelmingly not worth it if the NFL wants to break the entrenched mentality.” (March 4, 2012 at 3:46 pm)
This sounds quite sensible to me, if this was a first offense. Think of it this way, Lowell, if your son wrote a slanderous article which hurt a person’s career, would a permanent ban from journalism be right for a first offense? Or would a temporary ban be more appropriate?
all of Grants articles are sub-par I think a lifetime ban should be Granted lol