The 49ers just franchise-tagged Dashon Goldson, a move that will cost the team about $6.2 million in 2012.
Will the Niners re-sign any more of their free agents before free agency starts?
It seems pretty clear at this point that Carlos Rogers will “test the waters” and see what other teams can offer him. Same with Ted Ginn Jr., and Adam Snyder, and maybe even Joshua Morgan, too.
If there’s one guy who has the best chance at re-signing in the next two weeks, it’s Alex Smith. There’s no point in him testing any waters because there’s no market for him outside of San Francisco. His value is tied to Jim Harbaugh.
If the Niners do not re-sign Smith before free agency, you’d have to wonder why. You’d think they’d want to reward the guy they call their franchise quarterback, but they haven’t done it yet. If they let Smith test waters, that would be a slap in his face. “Go see what you’re really worth,” would be the message.
That would undercut their whole previous message to Smith, which was: “Don’t worry what other people think of you. We think the world of you. You’re our guy.”
The Niners need to give Smith his contract extension before March 13, or else things could get awkward and the waters could get awfully turbulent.
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@Grant
I think you are fishing for something in a pond that has nothing to be caught with this blog Grant.
Or at least your last 4 paragraphs are.
I don’t agree. Grant is spot on. I think Baalke is smart enough to realize that Smith doesn’t want to leave and his value outside of JH’s system is average at best. So the Niner FO will allow him to ‘test the waters’ and then give him a fair market offer.
@nick
I will say that I think JH and TB don’t see the same things out of AS.
TB was fine with letting AS walk. JH had to convince both AS and TB to have him come back.
TB supposedly controls the personnel -1 player. The QB. And JH I bet controls that.
I agree. Even if Alex remains unsigned as of March 13, it does not necessarily mean the team is slapping him in the face; that is a journalistic attempt to foment dissension in order to get people to read your columns. It is disingenuous and untrue.
The 49ers officially stated that Alex is their guy, regardless of what the rest of the league thinks of him. In other words, even if he hits free agency, the team will take care of him.
Grant, you obviously are cynical about how the business of football is conducted. You seem to think that in every situation, it is all about the money. I think the 49ers are creating a different kind of relationship with their players; one that includes loyalty to the team. Eddie D. accomplished this and we know how that worked out; Jed, Paraag, Trent and Jim are doing the same thing with today’s 49ers.
Alex will be back, regardless of whether or not he signs a contract by March 13; and he will not harbor any ill will toward the team that showed faith in him and the coach who has resurrected his career.
I agree. Even if Alex remains unsigned as of March 13, it does not necessarily mean the team is slapping him in the face; that is a journalistic attempt to foment dissension in order to get people to read your columns. It is disingenuous and untrue.
The 49ers officially stated that Alex is their guy, regardless of what the rest of the league thinks of him. In other words, even if he hits free agency, the team will take care of him.
Grant, you obviously are cynical about how the business of football is conducted. You seem to think that in every situation, it is all about the money. I think the 49ers are creating a different kind of relationship with their players; one that includes loyalty to the team. Eddie D. accomplished this and we know how that worked out; Jed, Paraag, Trent and Jim are doing the same thing with today’s 49ers.
Alex will be back, regardless of whether or not he signs a contract by March 13; and he will not harbor any ill will toward the team that showed faith in him and the coach who has resurrected his career.
The team knows that AS, who wasn’t even a member of the team last season when we ran Camp Alex basically out of his own pocket, isn’t going to “test the waters”, instruct his agent to play hardball, or any of the other things that say, a certain 1st round pick wideout had done before signing.
Why should he? After going through the hell of his first 6 years, has has a taste of the promised land. I could see Alex signing a deal for much less than market value to free up cash for other team needs.
DS you can say what you want but TB controls the whole roster and that includes AS./
Somebody convinced TB to have another go with AS, and somebody convinced AS to want to come back.
And that person was not TB.
Grant we already have a gossip football website it’s called Profootballtalk.com and they are experts at making mountains out of moguls, why don’t you leave it to the professionals.
Grants just stating the obvious, but you heavens gate cult niner “fans” have delicate sensibilities just like alex smith and his fragile confidence. Your pathetic 150 yd a game average hero alice smith isn’t long for the starting qb spot trust me. Poor little alex’s days are numbers then you guys can go root for the cfl team he goes to and leave the niners to the real fans.
I think you meant to say “mountains out of mole hills”. Your phrase would imply that you are making a mountain out of a rich or powerful person.
@Fresniner, you obviously don’t ski or board. Moguls are those technical bumps coming down a ski trail. Faithful’s phrase was implied correctly. Nice try though.
@Sleeper, you’re right, I do not ski, so I was not aware that mogul was a “bump” in the snow. However, the most common saying is the one I mentioned. But now I know, and knowing is half the battle…
Agree, this is the definition of reaching.
The whole world knows Smith will be back, Maiocco mentioned that at the Combine interest in him as a FA was non-existent because everyone knew he’d eventually resign with the 49ers.
It’s more plausible that while the sides are talking, there’s a mutual understanding that there are other holes priorities the team also wants to get locked up before committing to what would likely be the largest contract they offer this offseason. Those other talks could cause finalization of Smith’s contract to not occur until FA opens.
Uh oh your boyfriend might be leaving, you gonna commit suicide?
Tully, adults are talking here. Do you have anything mature to add?
How much you wanna bet that Tully and Reggie McGrew are the same idiot trying to get a rise out of people? Move along and seek attention somewhere else loser.
@rocket
“….Tully and Reggie McGrew are the same idiot…”
I said that first.
It’s Harbaugh’s job to motivate and commend his players. Baalke’s job is to gauge their true value to the team, which he has been very good at. There is a value commiserate with a players performance, regardless of position. The reality is that there is no market for Smith’s services outside of the Niners, but that doesn’t mean he can’t be successful here. It just means that he is going to be treated like the other members of the team at contract time, which is how it should be. He will receive a FAIR contract offer with escalators that would reward him for performance. He has zero leverage and everybody knows it.
I agree Big P, what would be intersting is if he ends up signing with the Seahawks because I would not want to face our d twice a season, look Alex played good last year but very rarely he made that big throw, I would almost like to see what Harbaugh could do with one of our kids but Harbaugh and Balke always seem to have a plan so going to be fun, What do you think of giving up our first round pick for Wallace, See I think Balke and Harbaugh are one step a head, Not a lot of premium outside linebackers as free agents or draft picks, so they sign brooks when every one is looking else where, and their seems to be much more free agents at corner back and wr, Now with Dashon Franchised they are going bargain shopping again for those two areas, I myself would want high quality player like wallace or Colston but they got a plan!
I have been in AS’s corner for years but never thought that he would go 14-4 let alone be able to play in the manner that he did against New Orleans.
That said, I don’t think that the 9ers should give him a GIANT contract. I think that he was overpaid for prior years performances. He’s had 1 great year & 1 good year with many mediocre years mixed between.
I think that 2yrs @ 15-20% above the average starters wages (excluding Bradford & any other 1st round [pre current CBA] overpaid QB’s) is more than fair.
CK & ST may not have gone 13-3 (reg season) last year, but I’m fairly confident that (by the seasons end) either of those two rookie QB’s (playing under JH’s system) could have had a better season than we had seen the prior 8 yrs before Harbaugh.
Alex is in great company. He is Terry Bradshaw, he is Jim McMann, he is Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson. They are all very average QB’s that rode the tails of their bad ass defenses. You could have replaced them with 75% of the QB’s in the league and the outcome would have been the same.
Only difference is the QB’s on that list rode the coat tails of their defense to a superbowl because they actually didn’t finish dead last in TD’s, yardage and 3rd down percentage……
Exactly right you are once again Bayareafanatic !
But Alex is OUR qb and of couse we should all cheer for him and hope he improves greatly as JH teaches him to overcome the many flaws in his game.
Grant states this “Alex Smith. There’s no point in him testing any waters because there’s no market for him outside of San Francisco. His value is tied to Jim Harbaugh.”.
We all know that is true and therefore we also know that Alex will sign with us for a fair price(7-9 million would be much more than fair for what Alex contributes),because he couldn’t get as much anywhere else and even if he could get another team interested the odds are he would be a backup for that team. (as I hope he stays and becomes for us,since I like having alex on the team).
Am I alone on my line of thinking?
I really do like the kid, I just don’t think he merits a BIG payday.
Alex Smith, what can i say, after all of dispoitment for very long -looong five or six years of horable and pathetic way below any measuring no. 1 draft pick, let him go to join terrel owens league where he,maybe, can compete for a job. If no other team in the nfl want him, what make him a great fit for the 49′s, can anybody explain???????
Nobody wants smith because he is a system fit for JH. He was our easiest option last year before the lockout ended. JH has to get at smith for the job. He was all we had that wAs for sure. JH blew smoke up Smiths behind then and he’s doing it now.
You have that little of faith in Harbaugh 23? I don’t know of any QB that can succeed with your theory here.
I’ll tell you but first learn to spell and take a basic grammar class while you’re at it…
Streetglide,
You’re a biotch, cell phones don’t always produce what you type. Proofreading on a cell phone for a blog is something your punk azz would do.
If you’re fishing for conspiracies at least go big. Drew Brees hasn’t been resigned yet, how much would you blow up the salary cap to sign him?
Now that’s what I’m talkin’bout, Htesrepus! Just imagine we try to wine-n-dine Brees ala Kurt Warner?! Wishinful thinking at best ’cause there’s NO WAY he’s walking out of New Orleans. I have a better chance at marrying Mila Kunis than Brees becoming a 9er. but maaaan!! whatta dream, eh?! Hahaha!!
This blog is all about speculation so why not speculate about something different/interesting. It’s not that crazy though, we took a step out of the laughing stock of the league last year so I think we went from 1:1,000,000 to 1:100,000. But its more about Brees not wanting to leave New Orleans than Brees not wanting to go to San Francisco.
@Htesrepus
“This blog is all about speculation so why not speculate about something different/interesting.”
There is nothing wrong with it. And you are right. A blog is to do exactly that.
Some people here though call stuff stupid and call names or infer to them in some fashion instead of just being civil with them. Then it becomes nothing but name calling and the idea is completely lost.
You keep it cool, (you have) and I see nothing wrong with the idea on a blog..
@DS
Yeah exactly I’ve never seen the point in name calling or people bashing in general. All it does is discredit the point of the basher and doesn’t do anybody any good.
One of your peers recently speculated that because Smith would cooperate, the 49niners would wait until later in free agency to sign him. The trouble is, right now I can’t remember exactly what the strategic advantage would be, but of course it had something to do with the cap and other free agents.
In that instance, it would be a collaboration not an insult. After all they cooperated in a unique way last spring. Maybe you’re looking for something at the bottom of a jacuzzi hot tub with the pumps running.
Go test the waters Smith.
Meanwhile 9ers grab Stevie Johnson and reggie wayne, sign Carlos rogers, grab some talent in the draft.
Sign Manning for two years.
Shock the NFL world and Peyton gets his second rind 9ers get their 6th.
CK you’re up.
Wow what an intelligent well thought out and highly realistic scenario. Good thing you didn’t post something ludicrous and moronic.
Don’t be so insulting. The Niners are one of the few teams most capable of offering Peyton a MONSTER 2 year deal that includes a probable SB win.
You do know that no QB has EVER won a SB with one team and won a SB with a 2nd. NEVER. Only Kurt Warner has taken 2 different teams to the SB. Odds arent in Mannings favor. And the guy is trash…complete and utter trash, in the post season. Oh and he cant throw a 20 yard out route with any velocity right now. Brilliant i tell you.
An immobile QB with four surgeries on his neck in a offense built for a mobile QB? Makes sense to me.
Personally, I would rather win a Super Bowl with a team that we built! Not bought!!
The idea of replacing an average QB with a Hall of Fame QB seems to really offend a certain segment of this blog’s population.
God forbid the 49ers actually convert a 3rd down. That would be horrible.
MS :
LOL !!! But watch out,if you speak the truth like that too often you will get a bunch of hate thrown your way.
Alex has a lot of Family members on this site .
Peyton without a doubt has been my favorite qb in the NFL since the Colts drafted him. He got me thru the last decade of football when my 9ers sucked.
If we could’ve stole him from the Colts a while back and have him as our QB for many years, I would’ve been ecstatic. But just to bring him in for a year or 2 in hopes of a SB seems like an unnecessary, panic type move to me.
First of all I dont believe its even realistic. I believe Peyton will play a couple more years or so and I believe it will be for the Colts. So why even get worked up about it until he’s actually available. I think that we will have AS signed long before that happens. Peyton and Irsay have the option to move that March 8th bonus day to a later date and if that happens, say bye-bye to Peyton. News came out today that he threw pretty hard at Duke and its on you- tube. He was throwing deep and with velocity!
Lowell Cohn jr.
Why because he doesn’t praise a pathetic bum qb that you have a crush on? You guys are soft out here, in new york the media would crush alice smith and the fans would have already killed him but those fans actually want to win, what a novel idea.
It’s true. I’d love to see headlines on Mark Sanchez
( who imo is as limited as Smith ) I bet they are brutal to that guy.
Sanchez is clearly worse than Smith. And no, I’m not saying Smith is elite, just simply that he’s clearly better than Sanchez.
And why in the world would you want 49er fans to act like east coast sports fans? No thanks.
bayarea you will here these newbie niner “fans” say crazy stuff like, alex smith “led” us to the nfc championship (when fans with a brain know we had the best special teams and defense in football and smith was the only reason we didn’t win a superbowl) and they want him back. Well Mark Sanchez (who I dont like but he’s way better than smith) “led” the Jets to two AFC Championships and no Jets fans want him back, their fans actually want to win over worrying about a pathetic qb like alices delicate sensibilities.
Sanchez didn’t “lead” the Jets anywhere. Defense and a running game did.
Sanchez is the polar opposite of AS.
Started good getting a lot worse on a good team from day 1.
Sanchez is way better than Smith? You’ve got to be kidding.
What are you basing that on, your dislike for Smith?
Why is anyone responding to TB-C? He is clearly trolling.
I agree with others that AS is cooperating to help sign as many of our FAs as possible. But if we are going to entertain “far out ideas” then I throw this one out: Dashon’s franchise tag allows him to test the market. If a team signs him away they must give the Niners TWO first round picks. My far out thinking makes me hope someone *does* sign him away! Dashon Goldson for TWO FIRST ROUNDERS? When are we ever going to get another offer like that?!
@openminded
I was really happy with CJ Spillman last year. He was awesome in ST, and what little I saw from him playing defense, he was great.
I bet they gave Spillman that contract in hopes that he can become the next safety when DG thinks he is more valuable than he is and leaves.
He is way faster, and he can hit. He is the best Niner player at taking a guy down in the open field with his years of experience playing ST. If he could learn his assignments, he would be a lot better than DG as long as CJ can catch the ball.
Baalke obviously knows more than any of us as far as players’ potential. I like Dashon and am not comparing him to any other player. However, in the realm of possibilities under the current Franchise Tag the Niners gave him today, if some team was Ditka crazy on Dashon, then I’d take the two first rounders and run!
I like 2 1st rounders better than almost any player.
Guess what? I agree 100% with that DSL. Amazing!!! Spillman is HARD!
@DS: I realize you said “almost any player” and I would agree. This is why I don’t understand why teams are lining up at the Rams’ door making rumored offers of two first rounders for RG3. Again, not comparing, just thinking of the concept makes me glad we got Baalke in charge. Ricky Williams, Carson Palmer, I don’t care who, just not not worth the impact to the future. If any sucker wants DG for 2 picks, take the picks!
@openminded
“…makes me glad we got Baalke in charge. ”
What do you mean? You don’t think I, or yourself or any one of us “experts” could do the job? You undervalue yourself open.
(sarcasm)
If people want to give up those picks for RG3, think what they are offering for AL.
I don’t like the idea of trading 1st round picks to move ahead in the draft. Too risky. If anything, I would give up a 1st round pick for a great player in their prime with plenty of years of good productivity left (at least 3-4).
Open minded. Run with that thought. If that happened and we had both of our first round picks, would you trade them both along with Navarro Bowman for Andrew Luck?
@Bay: I’ll run with it but verrrrry slowly and backwards. By all accounts, Andrew Luck will be great in the NFL. RG3 perhaps too. That said, I’m not Ditka crazy. Seems like Baalke isn’t nuts either and he’d take a pass on your trade offer if he were a GM for the Colts.
I like NaVorro and hope we sign Larry Grant again. It’d be nice to keep that working model in tact. One working component is better than two areas needing attention, agree?
Let me clarify. In that last post, place the word *UNLESS* he were the GM for the Colts.
Bay,
It would be tempting, but that is a lot to give up. Two firsts, and an All Pro ILB. I don’t think I would pull the trigger on that one, not unless I was absolutely certain that Luck is going to be an HOF QB.
OpenMinded,
I’m with you. I’d take the picks and drive Goldson to the Airport, but nobody is giving up two 1st’s for Goldson.
It’s my understanding that round tenders are only put on players who are restricted free agents. DG is unrestricted. I don’t believe offering the franchise tag puts a 2 first round pick tender on him.
Let us have our fun fantasizing for the moment.
Reality will hit us in awhile anyway.
Why would we want to lose a Pro Bowl player for 2 picks that we have no idea how they will perform? I have read some ridiculous stuff on here but this takes the cake!
“An “exclusive” franchise player must be offered a one-year contract for an amount no less than the average of the top five salaries at the player’s position as of a date in April of the current year in which the tag will apply, or 120 percent of the player’s previous year’s salary, whichever is greater. Exclusive franchise players cannot negotiate with other teams.
A “non-exclusive” franchise player must be offered a one-year contract for an amount no less than the average of the top five salaries at the player’s position in the previous year, or 120 percent of the player’s previous year’s salary, whichever is greater. A non-exclusive franchise player may negotiate with other NFL teams, but if he signs an offer sheet from another team, the original team has a right to match the terms of that offer, or if it does not match the offer and thus loses the player, is entitled to receive two first-round draft picks as compensation.”
I was unaware of the exclusive and non-exclusive tags. Sorry for any confusion.
its funny when scribes assume they know whats going on behind closed doors. ecspecially with a franchise that has become as tight lipped as the 49ers.
Give Grant a break on this one coach. At least he throws his thoughts out there.
Some people do nothing but criticize others posts. It is a lot easier to be critical of a thought than to have one of your own.
i would feel better about him if he would begin the article with….”i have no evidence but this is my guess”
Is there a such thing as a blog in which people actually produce intelligent dialogue and don’t try to flame each other?
@Htesrepus
Go to a community college and take a class where you do blog as part of the classwork.
You will get a lot more constructive dialogue between people with opposing views than you will here.
old coach, Grant is simply speculating, because it’s entertaining, and fun. He’s not suggesting he knows what they’re going to do.
People are too vitriolic around here.
I know this thread is not about WR, but I did some analysis to put things into perspective. I took the top 20 WR’s from last year, pulled up their combine 40 times, and did some basic statistics on them. Here is what I found about their 40 times:
Average: 4.50
Min: 4.28
Max: 4.81
Stdev: 0.12
Ave +/- Stdev: 4.38 to 4.62
Veiwing this in the context of Bill Walsh’s evaluation strategy (functional speed vs. straight line track speed), top notch 40 time is NOT a definitive metric of production at WR in the NFL.
When looking at this year’s WR prospects in the draft, let’s not get carried away by sub 4.4 times. Unfortunately, some scouts weigh this heavely. I still believe that somebody like Sanu will drop to us in the 2nd round and may be a very good pick up.
Calvin Johnson
Height: 6-5 Weight: 239
40 Time: 4.35
Draft: 2007 – 1st round (2nd pick) by the Detroit Lions
Wes Welker
Height: 5-09 Weight: 195
40 Time: 4.61
Draft: None
Victor Cruz
Height: 6-0 Weight: 204
40 Time: 4.49
Draft: None
Larry Fitzgerald
Height: 6-3 Weight: 225
40 Time: 4.48
Draft: 2004 – 1st round (3rd pick) by the Arizona Cardinals
Steve Smith
Height: 5-9 Weight: 185
40 Time: 4.41
Draft: 2001 – 3rd round (12th pick) by the Carolina Panthers
Roddy White
Height: 6-0 Weight: 211
40 Time: 4.47
Draft: 2005 – 1st round (27th pick) by the Atlanta Falcons
Jordy Nelson
Height: 6-3 Weight: 217
40 Time: 4.51
2008 – 2nd round (5th pick) by the Green Bay Packers
Brandon Marshall
Height: 6-4 Weight: 230
40 Time: 4.81
Draft: 2006 – 4th round (22nd pick) by the Denver Broncos
Mike Wallace
Height: 6-0 Weight: 199
40 Time: 4.28
Draft: 2009 – 3rd round (20th pick) by the Pittsburgh Steelers
Hakeem Nicks
Height: 6-1 Weight: 208
40 Time: 4.44
Draft: 2009 – 1st round (29th pick) by the New York Giants
Dwayne Bowe
Height: 6-2 Weight: 221
40 Time: 4.51
Draft: 2007 – 1st round (23rd pick) by the Kansas City Chiefs
Marques Colston
Height: 6-4 Weight: 225
40 Time: 4.50
Draft: 2006 – 7th round (44th pick) by the New Orleans Saints
Antonio Brown
Height: 5-10 Weight: 186
40 Time: 4.56
Draft: 2010 – 6th round (26th pick) by the Pittsburgh Steelers
Vincent Jackson
Height: 6-5 Weight: 230
40 Time: 4.46
Draft: 2005 – 2nd round (29th pick) by the San Diego Chargers
A.J. Green
Height: 6-4 Weight: 207
40 Time: 4.48
Draft: 2011 – 1st round (4th pick) by the Cincinnati Bengals
Nate Washington
Height: 6-1 Weight: 177
40 Time: 4.55
Draft: None
Stevie Johnson
Height: 6-2 Weight: 210
40 Time: 4.58
Draft: 2008 – 7th round (17th pick) by the Buffalo Bills
Reggie Wayne
Height: 6-0 Weight: 198
40 Time: 4.45
Draft: 2001 – 1st round (30th pick) by the Indianapolis Colts
Greg Jennings
Height: 5-11 Weight: 198
40 Time: 4.42
Draft: 2006 – 2nd round (20th pick) by the Green Bay Packers
Pierre Garcon
Height: 6-0 Weight: 210
40 Time: 4.42
Draft: 2008 – 6th round (39th pick) by the Indianapolis Colts
Anquan Boldin
Height: 6-1 Weight: 216
40 Time: 4.72
Draft: 2003 – 2nd round (22nd pick) by the Arizona Cardinals
Nice list Nick
Now see how much each is getting (salary).
what this shows me is you have a much better chance of making it in the nfl if you have a sub 4.55 40 but its not mandatory especially with size
@alberts i really thought that grant was attempting to be a little more journalistic than his father but now i think you might be right
Journalistic, hey moron journalistic doesn’t mean praising a bad player that has been a bum for 8 years, news flash Alex Smith is not a good player and the sky is blue. Is Grant supposed to insult people with lucid minds by lying and saying “alex smith is the niners first priority even though he went 1-13 on third downs in the nfc championship” or “if alex smith goes to free agency there will be a feeding frenzy” when everybody knows nobody wants alex smith the little engine that couldn’t. Nobody wants your hero you just gotta deal with that little fella.
Go away and be a jerk somewhere else.
Tully,
First, let me be clear as to where I stand. You’re an idiot, and your comments pollute this blog.
Second, if nobody else in the NFL wants Smith, the 49ers should be able to sign him for the veteran minimum, correct? If they sign him for several million $ more than that, either you or Trent Baalke and Jim Harbaugh are completely ignorant incompetents. So……who do you think’s an ignorant incompetent, you or the executive and coach of the year?
TBC… why did you put quotation marks around “feeding frenzy?”
Tully,
You kill any credibility you have with this statement: “…a bad player who has been a bum for eight years…”
He just completed his seventh year. At least know how to count.
@midwest
For whatever reason, people keep saying that AS is an 8 year player, not 7.
@Coach
Sad thing is that Lowell jr. knew exactly what’s gonna happen..the troll wagons are circling, and majority of the posts are gonna be worthless.
Only in your mind it will become turbulent. nothing will happen, SMith will see, what really the league thinks of him and will come back with his tail, between his legs. Will sign rather on the cheap, what he actually deserves and if he doens’t like it, he can go away. CK and Tolzien can pass for the same yards as him, even more so. But I doubt it will happen. SMith is as scared as ever to go to a new team, because he will fail and he knows it.
Ninerz- On the flip side, you could say Alex is more confident than ever, and wants to stay with a team he knows he can be succesfull on, and wants him.
Come’on man!
Ninerz you hit the nail on the head, Smith is a bum, nobody wants him and he knows it…. The niners should offer him league minimum, they are only bidding against themselves and they know no other team wants him unless they need a backup long snapper.
But Tully,if they don’t give Alex a pretty big contract,all that building up that JH has been doing over the last year to con Alex into having confidence will be ruined. How can Jim say all that nonsemse with a straight face and expect Alex to believe him again if they don’t give him a decent contract ?
you’re right. nothing will be ruined. everybody knows, Smith is a fraud, as a matter of fact, he should play for free. they should give him no more than 5 mil./year
Ever stop to think that Smith is waiting to see what the team does in free agency to help the WR corps?
The 9ers have all of the leverage right now so why rush to sign A. Smith? Everyone knows that Harbaugh got the best out of him this year so the 9ers aren’t really worried about other teams swooping in and signing him. And if there is another team that is foolish enough to offer him a contract that pays him Top 10 QB money then let them! Besides by waiting the 9ers can see how this whole Peyton Manning situaton unfolds. P. Manning already said that he would be willing to take an incentive laden contract and I think the 9ers would be crazy not to at least see how that situation plays out. You put a healthy P. Manning on our team with Reggie Wayne or another FA receiver and we would be super bowl favorites!!
Amen
Manning will not play in the NFL again. Mark it.
@MJ
I don’t pretend to have any inside knowledge, but my guess is that Peyton will play in 2012. No clue where…
Alex isn’t going anywhere…they’ll get a deal done. All the conjecture is just that…in an effort to keep readers plugged in. Harbaugh has spoken…and it’s up to Baalke to get the deal done…end of story.
Smith will be resigned. It just a matter of how they structure the deal. How they structure the deal will depend on how much cap space they need. How much cap space they need will depend on how much they have to pay for FA WR.
i wouldnt be surprised if theres not already a deal in place there leaving it open ended to see what else they can do to improve the team
That’s what makes the most sense to me, Coach. Given Alex’s clear commitment to the team (even when, as last year, he didn’t have a contract–and still stepped up to lead team workouts during the lockout), and given that he’s already made a TON of money, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn that he’s more than willing to be flexible with his contract, in the hopes of helping to build a championship caliber roster. Whether you like his quarterbacking skills or not, that’s the kind of man he’s shown himself to be.
old coach, I agree.
Just read your post Coach, and I agree 100%.
@ Grant:
–
Can you address this Grant?
–
So Alex never really amounted to much before Harbaugh came around, agreed? And we say Alex played in a weird spread offense in college? And we know that CK7 is smart, just like Alex?
–
SO HERE’S THE Question, Grant:
–
Why is it unreasonable to believe that CK7, in his 2nd year in Harbaugh’s system, with the benefit of a full off-season, could not be just as effective or more effective than Alex Smith was in year 1 with no offseason? If it’s the system more than the QB, and with success by Gannon, Johnson, Luck, Smith, you have to say Harbaugh runs a good system, then what, really, are the risks of letting Alex test the market?
–
“what, really, are the risks of letting Alex test the market?”
Short corporate answer: “minimal” and/or “negligble” risk factor in this situation.
PBL,
Interesting point and I imagine it all comes down to how they view Kap as a long term prospect. Harbaugh has repeatedly professed his admiration for Smith which some view as trying to instill confidence, but it could also be that they aren’t convinced that Kaps long term outlook is all that promising.
This is why it’s tough to predict and accurately gauge a situation like this. What we view as conservative play by Smith may be exactly what Harbaugh likes and feels he wants from his QB in order to be in a position to win. Who knows?
I believe Harbaugh feels Smith will improve a lot in year 2 of being in the system and really doesn’t want to put all his eggs in the Kap basket yet. That may change down the line, but right now I think Smith is the security blanket for Harbaugh.
Best case scenario is that they resign Smith to a deal they aren’t tied to beyond a couple of years and Kap and/or Tolzien make some big strides to offer a true competition for the starting role. That makes everybody better and if Kap beats Smith out, they aren’t stuck with a backup making huge dollars.
True points, but Kaep is Harbaugh’s guy. I’ve long established that I liked Alex last year. The conservative play was most definitely fitting in 2011, given the circumstances. But if you accept that Kaep is Harbaugh’s guy, the guy he chose even though he knew he already had Alex on board, then at some point you have to accept that Kaep has an arsenal of serious weapons at his disposal that imply an all-out, attacking style. He’s 6’5″, 4.5 40, with a missile launcher on his shoulder. So yeah, coach him up to be careful, just like you did with Alex, but my oh my, where is this kid’s ceiling? It’s a serious question.
CK was drafted before they saw how much AS could improve in one year without OTA’s in JH’s system and program. JH states in his QB clinic that the “number one job of the QB is to protect the ball.” AS’s first phase of the JH era was proving he could protect the ball and alleviate turnovers.
When tested during key times in games in 2011, AS became a clutch player. He also connected numerous times with the most dangerous player on the 9er offense – VD. Once the 9ers add another playmaker or two via FA and the draft, AS will again complete another phase of his improvement – consistency.
Currently AS is the starter, don’t see that changing with an unproven very raw player in the near (2-3 yrs) term.
@Hofer… I really hate that, man. Currently Alex is not the starter. If he comes back, there will be competition, and if he beats out Kaep, then so be it. I like Alex. Always have, so plz don’t call me a name. I just can’t wait to see how this team evolves over the course of this vital offseason period.
I agree with you that Kaps physical skills are through the roof. It’s the mind and lack of experience in a pro offense that may be the concern. Not to say he can’t pick it up, just that they may not have seen the improvement they wanted over the course of the season.
I’m just speculating on why they might be so inclined to say Smith is their guy and want to resign him. It could also be a smoke screen and they figure Kap will be ready to beat out Smith in a year or two.
Whatever the case, I hope Kap reaches that point where he can compete for the starting job asap and pushes Smith. That’s the ideal scenario for this team going forward.
Ill tell you what. They had those concerns at Nevada about Kaep picking up the system, but once he got in a game he almost beat Boise and then set the WAC on fire… The day he steps on the field, Alex is done.
You are on the right track Bun !
Maybe! But like I said before. If he was an elite qb. He’d be signed and before last year was over. Not saying they won’t. But if it was BREES… They would at LEAST be in a contract dispute. Smith had no leverage, he isn’t going anywhere. The niners know this so why not take some time and keep the pieces to the MAIN reason we were 1 play away from a Super Bowl and sure up the top ranked defense. Gotta sign Rogers! With harbaughs hand picked qb sitting there on the sidelines they have something to fall back on.
It’s because he has no value to anyone but us…. We all know it. Some will defend it because they want to defend their guy. Ultimately we all know it.
So you have insider information on all the teams bay? I highly doubt it.
By this definition then, for a player to be “elite” he must be resigned before his contract ends or at least be in a contract dispute. Finally, someone has defined “elite”.
I love all of this unfounded and completely unsupported speculation from those in denial about Alex Smith and his future with the 49ers. From Matt Maiocco:
The 49ers and Smith’s agent, Tom Condon of CAA Football, continue negotiations on a deal.
If the sides fail to work out the numbers by March 13, Smith would be free to speak with other teams when the free-agent signing period begins. Both sides expect the deal to get done, and for Smith to return to the 49ers.
At the NFL scouting combine, the word circulating was that teams in need of a quarterback weren’t even seriously considering Smith as an option because of the assumption he’ll be back with coach Jim Harbaugh and the 49ers.
From http://www.csnbayarea.com/blog/niners-talk/post/Why-Goldson-is-the-49ers-only-franchise-?blockID=661776&feedID=5884 (Emphasis added)
Of course, if you guys have any factual support for your self-serving theories, feel free to share it. Please don’t keep it to yourselves.
Good answer. My first take in reading Grant’s article is that it was kind of silly. I mean — contracts are often quite complicated, and in this case might be especially so because despite his **best** season, I seriously doubt that the GM is going to move all in on him. So yeah, I suspect they are working on it, they’ll continue working on it, and that there is no “slap in the face” if it is not worked out by the start of FA. Nothing to see here.
Claude: You should have said other teams show no interest in Alex because they know he is re-signing with the Niners AND because they have no interest in him starting for their team even if he wasn’t re-signing with the Niners,then it would have been the truth.
If he were to go to another team it would be as a backup,at least for the 1st year,unless it was with one of the few teams who had a worse QB.
Alex will be back and I am glad,since I like the guy and since we will need a pretty good backup ourselves in a year or so.
MD,
That’s not how it works. Rarely do you see any player signing a long term deal during the season. Both sides aren’t focused on contracts until the offseason and in this case they are negotiating just like any other team and QB is. Brees is obviously at a different level than Alex Smith but they are both in the same situation in that they have a number and the team has a number and they have to find common ground. Same thing happened with Brady a few years ago. You don’t see the long term contract signed until the deadline is close and sometimes not until it’s passed.
@rocket:
Did ninermd mean to say that Brees is not elite? Because Brees wasn’t re-signed before last season was over.
Sure seems like it from those comments he made above Claude. I would have to disagree with him. I think Brees is elite.
Rocket I agree. But the word was Alex was going to sign last year before years end. Didn’t happen and it’s good it didn’t. I don’t believe you sign any player before a season ends UNLESS he is the best at his position in the NFL. I’m talking priority here. Smith doesn’t have the leverage in this case. That’s the reason he wasn’t the first signed. There isn’t a big market for OLB this year. That’s why Brooks was signed first. Rogers and smith don’t have the leverage because first the 49ers have two young qb’s and the market is a little richer with cb’s than OLB.
And Claude once again…. Have you heard any news on smiths contract negotiations? Your a fool if you don’t think Bree’s is the MOST important free agent to that franchise. Who else on that team would they sign knowing Bree’s walks? NOBODY! That’s elite. Claude I changed my mind. Stick to copy and paste. It’s the only way you can think and answer.
@ ninermd:
Don’t blame me for your carelessness with words.
You said If he was an elite qb. He’d be signed and before last year was over.
I simply noted that Brees was not signed before the the 2011 season ended, and he’s still not signed. By the definition you provided, Brees would not be eltie. I disagree with that assessment, but it’s your definition, not mine.
And Claude once again…. Have you heard any news on smiths contract negotiations?
Yes, and I referred to it on this very thread in my comment deriding the “unfounded and completely unsupported speculation” about the team’s negotiations with Smith. It’s only a few comments above this one. Go ahead and read it. I’ll wait.
As you can see, contrary to your suggestions, the 49ers have been negotiating with Smith and continue to so. The team did not place those negotiations on the back burner, as you also incorrectly speculated.
You will also note that I actually provided support for what I said. You, on the other hand, have offered no factual support for your unfounded, speculative theories.
Your a fool if you don’t think Bree’s is the MOST important free agent to that franchise.
I defy you to find a single comment from me in which I said or even suggested that he wasn’t. Go ahead. I’ll wait again.
You repeatedly accuse people of making statements and/or arguments that they never made and then knocking those statements/arguments down. What is that about?
You seem to think the order in which a team signs its free agents = the order in which the team values those free agents. Do you have any support for that theory, or is just another product of your imagination?
*the 2011 season
*would not be elite
*and then knock
@claude
I think you and ninermd woke up on opposite ends of the bed and banged heads when you got up.
There seems to be arguing going on when there was no argument to begin with. That is what happened with pork and myself yesterday.
DSL … Absolutely correct. No argument. Kind request though, from me to you… if I ask you about your views, just make it easy, otherwise it’s hard, you know? Cool. Go in peace, brother.
DS,
I think you missed the nuance of this discussion between MD and Claude. Read it carefully and you may pick up on what Claude is trying to get across.
MD,
Just having some fun with your words was all. I know you think Brees is elite. The point was, the majority of the time you don’t see players signing long term contracts during the season. Buffalo was the exception this past season and I’m guessing they’d like a mulligan on that one.
Brees is in the same boat as Alex Smith and many other QB’s over the years. It’s part of the process and has no bearing on where the view the player on the list of priorities.
Brooks was signed first because he was willing to sign. Simple as that. Looking at the parameters of the contract, it’s not exactly a great deal for him that gives him much security. What that tells me is Brooks didn’t want to test FA either because he really wanted to be here, or because he felt unsure of what his value you would be. Either way the Niners made out very well on his deal.
@pork
What makes it hard for me to believe you is that I made that offer to you yesterday, you proceeded to write a good 3-4 posts where you did nothing but bash the hell out of me.
Then you asked for a peace treaty with a little out clause for yourself to go off on me at your whim.
I said no. Then you proceeded to bash the hell out of me the rest of the evening, going into today. I don’t need to read the whole thread when I can see my name and other key words as well. Which are followed by posts by those you know I don’t like.
You remotely want me to take your peace proposal seriously, don’t do that. At the very least call me by my full name or DS (My name is not DSL), and stop participating in the multi-threads where I am insulted or inferred too.
It is all up to you.
The ball is in your court.
@rocket
Appreciate it. But I actually had a “hidden agenda” to writing that post.
It may have worked. lol
Also, just trying to jump in the way before md and claude go at it. This blog is relatively free of the name calling. I wish to keep it that way.
DS
Peace treaty? The whole point was that I had never interacted with you before yesterday, ever, so I had never asked you questions or had any exchanges with you. So then we had a little discussion going and at some point you told me to search through Grant’s archives to refer to a comment you had made months earlier.
Q: Do you see how this doesn’t make sense? I wasn’t attacking you. I was asking about your insights. Hey Pork, what do you think of Harbaugh? Well, DS, I spoke to that issue 3 months ago, so why don’t you go searching because I don’t feel like saying it again. If I hadn’t ever interacted with you before, wouldn’t you wonder why I didn’t just share it with you, so as to allow the conversation to continue? At least acknowledge this, DS.
Just man up, dude. We got off on a good foot yesterday and then for no reason you referred me to the archives, then continued to stonewall me. Its more than a little strange, when the whole purpose of a blog is the exchange of ideas.
PBL,
Save your breath – there is no reasoning with DS…she does not seem to comprehend basic human interractions. She’s a self-proclaimed alien with tentacles.
@pork
I do remember us interacting before yesterday several times over the season. But that is beside the point.
This whole season had 1 big question looming on this blog. Will AS get resigned?
So, from my perspective, I have written a ton of posts about why why JH will want to bring AS back. Trust me, I wrote more than one on the subject.
Then JH said “AS is our guy.” He called AS “elite and pro-bowl”. So, for me, that issue died with JH saying all these things. And it is clear that by having AS being JH’s caddy and AS picking up JH’s coach of the year award that JH was genuine in what he said about AS. JH didn’t say a bad thing about anybody all year long (Niner players). So, one argument was “JH was just saying that because he won’t knock a player”
Well, that argument died to me when AS did the caddy and award pick-up for me as well.
On this blog it was called the AS debate. Well the debate is over. JH has made his choice quite clear. Some here won’t accept it. That is there problem. Not mine.
I want to move forward. And I can’t do that by going into the past and discussing things that were already dashed out and resolved by the people who matter. JH. Not us fans. I feel the next phase of this team is to win in the playoffs, and by that I mean Super Bowl.
I asked you if you would like to talk about the trading of a Niner QB in x years assuming that both AS and CK become “A”QB’s. Since this was something that was new and interesting to me. Give me your thoughts on it if any.
By the way. Many people ask others a lot of questions here which are never answered. Of everybody on this blog, I think I answer the highest % of anybody. In fact one common blogger has told me to do reply less. I won’t. If somebody writes something to me, and I can reply or contribute something, I will. So, you have to keep your cool if somebody is not answering a particular question.
Ask them something else. Or maybe they just don’t want to interact with you for x reason. Keep it civil and most of the time things will get better.
So, that is why I didn’t answer your question.
Now I have one for you.
Can we converse with one another in a civil manner understanding that the other person may not always be able to reply to a question, or just tire of the subject and wants to move onto something else without cursing them? I think it is a simple request.
If so, then I’m cool with you. If not, then it is best that we generally ignore one another. No need to bring the whole blog down because we can’t resolve our own stupid issues with one another.
DS
Simply put, yes.
–
JH follows the BW model, which is to say, competition is king and you can’t have enough talent at QB. (Contrast this with Singletary). My position is that the Niners should sign Smith to a 2 year contract for no more than $12M and open up competition between him, CK7, & Tolzien. Start the best.
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The idea of trading one of them should include the possibility of trading any of the three. Harbaugh should draft a QB every year or so, develop him, and trade him, like Kolb last year and Flynn this year.
–
Problem with trying to trade Smith is that he carries a bust stigma, so trading him will never bring as much value as it should. Problem with keeping Smith and trading Kaepernick is that Kaep is Harbaugh’s chosen QB, and his ceiling seems so much higher than Smith’s, from a talent/physical perspective.
–
Kaepernick was the fastest QB in the draft last year. He has a stronger arm than Cam Newton. Add to that the fact that Harbaugh hand-picked him, and it seems pretty clear that he is the future.
@pork
: – )
I was waiting for that before I log off. I’ll get back to your remark later. If I don’t tonight or this weekend, I just want to wish you and everybody to enjoy the weekend.
DS,
What did Claude have to do with this back and forth, other than shoot down the hip shooting MD’s half baked notions?
shooting down, that is
@Pork
Those other QB’s will get their chance. Just like Grant will get his chance to compete for a job against PW and NB. Just don’t expect either of them to take the starters job away.
And if MC can hold off his competition then so be it as well. The best players play. Contract/ego/draft position be damned. The other team won’t care about either of those things. Neither should us fans or the coaching staff.
But, a 2 year contract is way too short. What if the Niners win the Super Bowl? AS is going to get offered a lot more money (and deservedly so). You want the contract to include a time span great enough so that if you hit early success, you don’t have to pay thru the roof to maintain it.
I also don’t think CK can become an “A” QB by that time either. The idea of having 2 “A” QB’s is that you can trade one away if needed for more draft picks. The danger in doing so of course is what happens if your other “A”QB gets seriously hurt or is unable to maintain his skills? Then you are kind of screwed. You may get some draft picks, but that does not compensate you for having no “A” QB’s now.
“Kaep is Harbaugh’s chosen QB,”
The Niners had to draft a QB. You understand that right? They had no QB to open up the season or even TC with, assuming there would be one.
I just disagree with this statement. JH didn’t need to go after AS what so ever. He was installing a new system. New coaches. New philosophy. New Everything. If he didn’t really believe in AS, or saw him as a stop gap QB, what is a stop gap for? CK could have been his starting QB. Seeing how the lockout happened, I bet most fans here would be willing to give JH a break if the Niners started off slowly and gave CK the job. Nobody would have really cared about letting AS go in favor of building up the future.
Fact is, there was no real reason to bring AS back. There was no continuity the whole time AS was here, and there wouldn’t be now with JH. JH could have started to mold CK from Day 1. But, he brought back AS and held the competition between CK and AS and AS won. And AS lead the team to the NFC title game loss in OT.
And, sorry pork. Who was JM’s competition when BW was here from 1981 to 1987? And it was the QB competition (AKA QB controversy) which ended up stressing BW out to the point that he retired due to it at the end of the following season. Seifert had to deal with the JM/SY thing a lot longer than BW ever did, yet he never gets any credit for what a stupendous job he did.
..I am gonna copy and paste this again because ninermd did not respond………..
from Claude …..@ ninermd:
Don’t blame me for your carelessness with words.
You said If he was an elite qb. He’d be signed and before last year was over.
I simply noted that Brees was not signed before the the 2011 season ended, and he’s still not signed. By the definition you provided, Brees would not be eltie. I disagree with that assessment, but it’s your definition, not mine.
And Claude once again…. Have you heard any news on smiths contract negotiations?
Yes, and I referred to it on this very thread in my comment deriding the “unfounded and completely unsupported speculation” about the team’s negotiations with Smith. It’s only a few comments above this one. Go ahead and read it. I’ll wait.
As you can see, contrary to your suggestions, the 49ers have been negotiating with Smith and continue to so. The team did not place those negotiations on the back burner, as you also incorrectly speculated.
You will also note that I actually provided support for what I said. You, on the other hand, have offered no factual support for your unfounded, speculative theories.
Your a fool if you don’t think Bree’s is the MOST important free agent to that franchise.
I defy you to find a single comment from me in which I said or even suggested that he wasn’t. Go ahead. I’ll wait again.
You repeatedly accuse people of making statements and/or arguments that they never made and then knocking those statements/arguments down. What is that about?
You seem to think the order in which a team signs its free agents = the order in which the team values those free agents. Do you have any support for that theory, or is just another product of your imagination?
Claude you said show you were you said brees wasn’t top priority…. My comment was saying he IS… Your arguing with me about that comment and that elite players are THE MOST important and FIRST choices when it comes to resigning. Why would you argue with my stance if you didn’t disagree? Well it’s because you are saying he isn’t. I know some on here love your elementary arts and crafts work, via copy and paste. But if your arguing… Your saying I’m not right about FA/elite getting top billing. Your a fool for thinking they’re not. Feel free to copy and paste anytime. It’s a neat little hobby, but talking football is waaaay out of your league.
@ninermd:
Wow, you really do have a problem with reading comprehension. And memory.
I never disagreed with you that Brees is elite or that he is the Saints’ most important FA to re-sign. What I have disagreed with are your assertions that (1) teams re-sign their free agents in order of importance, and (2) elite QBs never get to free agency because their teams re-sign them during the season prior to reaching free agency.
All of that is very clear from my posts on this thread. rocket and exgolfer had no trouble understanding it, but you still cannot seem to figure it out.
Feel free to copy and paste anytime. It’s a neat little hobby, but talking football is waaaay out of your league.
Really? I usually think about what I am going to say before I post a comment. I also offer facts to support my positions, and typically provide links to my sources. By contrast, you rarely offer any factual support for the half-baked (thank you to exgolfer for the adjective) theories you toss out with absolute certainty. Instead, you present them as if they are obvious, self-evident truths. You then typically label those who disagree with you as “morons,” which is ironic. I may be way out of your league when it comes to talking football, but it’s not in the direction you think.
And you can make all the cute remarks you like about my re-posting others’ comments before responding to them. As I said before, I think the format better organizes my comments, makes them easier to follow for everyone else (except, apparently, you) and ensures that I don’t mistakenly respond to something that wasn’t said.
You may want to give it a try. That way, your comments might not read like they were written by Gary Busey.
Claude says, “I also offer facts to support my positions.”. Claude that just makes their heads explode because they can’t process reality.
@Jack:
Claude that just makes their heads explode
Don’t get my hopes up.
@claude
Like I said.
You two are not really fighting about a difference of opinion. There never was anything to the fight about in the first place.
@DS:
Sure we are/there is. It’s just that only one of us grasps what the issue is.
Here is how I see it claude
You have said DB is a really good QB
Ninermd has said DB is a really good QB
(and just for the fun of it, I say DB is a really good QB because he is).
Anything beyond that is just idle chat. I really can’t believe ninermd actually thinks what he says you said about DB. That is asinine. You never did. I have never seen anybody claim DB was not a good QB on this site. Or an elite QB, etc.
I think he is just playing with you some.
If I had a sports column,hers what todays topic would be- Why Harbaugh is brilliant.
He hasnt let Jeremy Lin just walk away..for nothing. He hasnt overvalued what are just good streetball players or the executives that have run a shinking ship.
He hasn’t signed Manny,gave 36 mill to a guy who has huge holes in his swing and has NEVER played a single MLB game…or gave away three all star pitchers for nobodys and never will be’s.
He hasnt cattered to McFadden to the point he lost no.1 draft picks,his best fullback,and possibly Campbell,with Palmers huge contract I should add. And more might be added to all this going down the wrong road.
Nothing stupid has Harbaugh done…just common sense and great coaching.
Thanks, Stan. In the beginning of his tenure, over on Lowell’s blog, you were ripping on Harbaugh every day for being a phony. Glad you’ve come around. Are you gonna give us one of your famous Stan-isms? It was ME, so long ago that told Jed York to sign this Harbaugh guy, and I even said back then that he wouldn’t let Jeremy Lin get away for free, and this was way back in ’92…
Ask Radnich..he read my email in 2009(2008?) on air for the 49ers to sign Harbaugh. Radnich and Woodsen said “nah,not ready”. I could have saved local fans-spared them-the tortured Singletary years.
Wait-ask Woodson. Radnich would lie.
Stan, you are a GENIUS!!!! Instead of sending that letter to Radnich you should have sent it to Jed and saved all of us from 2 years of garbage.
Jim is still an oddball…but heck,a lot of people with much going on upstairs say weird things…but when it comes to the job,they prove they are the best.
Yes sir, Stan! I do love me some weirdos!!!
Me too.
Stan, you are a charming guy.
stan what i think you’re saying is go 9ers go giants
I’d still rather see them sign Rogers than Goldson (if we had to pick one), but in actuality I’d want to keep both.
As far as Alex Smith goes, he’ll resign before FA if his agent isn’t asking for too much money. If he’s asking for $10 or $11/year then they’ll let him test the waters. This is a business and they have made it clear that they won’t overpay for anyone regardless of how they feel about the guy. Grant has a point – Alex has little value outside of SF and the team would be ill-advised to pay him more than he’s worth to the rest of the league. The Niners have the leverage in this case, and they know it.
That’s what they did with Goldson last year, I doubt they’ll treat Alex any differently if they feel he’s asking for too much compensation.
i dont think its a matter of smith asking for to much. i think its a matter of he and his agent working with the 49ers to give them as much flexability to sign other players. look for him to sign 11:00 pm mar 12
That is a strike against you, Girl, the Rogers over Goldson comment, I mean. How do you figure? Consider how important FS is, consider that we had a monster pass rush last year, consider that we have 5 young, fast, physical, Baalke-drafted CBs, even without Rogers. I’m all ears. Tell me why they franchised the wrong guy! Thanks ;)
i agree with 9er girl i think the 3 most difficult position to fill in the nfl are cover corners QB’s and pass rushers and if your corners get smoked off the line even geat safeties cant help
@PBL: How do you figure? But for his age, Rogers is clearly more valuable. CB is a much more valuable position than Safety ($10.6 million franchise figure vs. $6.2 million is all the evidence you should need to believe that) and Rogers played CB at a Pro Bowl level in 2011. I understand that his age is is a factor and that he probably expects more than the 49ers (or anyone) want to pay. That said, his departure would weaken the team at two positions: No. 1 CB and Nickel CB.
we have 5 young, fast, physical, Baalke-drafted CBs,
Yeah, but none has the experience or savvy that Rogers has.
You are correct that they franchised the right guy (don’t think 49erGirl was talking about the use of the franchise tag), but that is because the franchise tag for safeties is over $4 million less than the tag for CBs, not because Goldson is more valuable.
PBL – I don’t think they franchised the wrong guy in this situation (because ultimately I’d like to see both of them on the team in 2012 and Carlos seems more eager to return than Goldson).
I just feel that a CB with Rogers skillset would be harder to replace that a FS with Goldson’s skillset. The FS position is helped tremendously by the front seven – the CB position needs to be exceptional in coverage on just about every play in order to avoid giving up big yardage.
Think of how bad our corners played in 2010 – they were burned regularly. Carlos was a huge reason the secondary was able to shut down WR’s this year and minimize the big plays.
No worries, though. I know this is just my opinion and I don’t expect everyone to agree with me – it’s all part of the fun of being here :-)
Girl, et al.
I get the sense that the truly exceptional FSs are more valuable than very good CBs. If we were talking about Revis or Charles Woodson, then I’d favor them, but not Rogers. Yes, he’s good, but at 30 he is finally reaching a ProBowl for the first time. I look at Niners history and I’m glad we had Deion for a year, but we’re nothing without Ronnie Lott. The Steelers and Polamalu, Ravens with Ed Reed, the Seahawks with their young guy. A truly great CB (only Revis & Woodson) is the equivalent of a great FS, but that’s it, in my opinion. I think that Dashon has it in him to become the next great FS in the NFL, while I think Rogers has been a very, very good CB, but only really ascended here because of our pass rush, front 7, Goldson, & scheme. I think Baalke shares that opinion.
@PBL:
By saying that a great safety = a truly great CB, you are placing more value on the FS position than the CB position. We have to part company there. How do you explain the difference in the respective franchise tenders? And draft positions?
@Girl
Sportscenter just showed a stat that with DG on the field, the Niners ranked #1 in INTs and #2 in Comp % on downfield throws by opposing teams. Without him, the figure fell to the 20s. That’s it.
@ Balls
There are 2 shutdown corners in the entire NFL. Rogers is not one of them. There are 5 great FSs in the NFL right now. Goldson IS one of them.
Please don’t take my words out of context as you did above. Read the whole, think about it, and then come back at me. Rogers is less good than Goldson is. A
great FS can mask lesser play by numerous CBs. A shutdown CB can shutdown 1 opposing player.
I gotta agree. Goldson was a beast and IMO a top 5 safety in the league this year. He crushed everything that moved, including his own guys.
I saw receivers short arming for the first time in years. They were afraid cause are guy laid down the wood baby. I like Rogers too and do not want to lose him. What bothers me about Rogers is strictly age. Two year deal, keep him. If he wants longer, got to let him go.
Lets remember one thing though, neither one of these guys is $hit without the pressure up front. That’s why we locked up Brooks. JS and Aldon baby. That’s where it starts….
@BAF
Ahmad Brooks is a friggin gem! He is an unknown supernova! His dad played in the NFL. As a sophomore in college he was a Butkus Award finalist and then got suspended. He was taken in the supplemental draft because he was such a punk. Here’s an interesting quote below. Just to clarify, our 4 LBs are now Aldon, Patrick Willis, Navorro Bowman, and this guy:
“Ahmad Brooks is a physical specimen. He’s got awesome size, he’s a great athlete, he’s fast, and he’s strong. You may not be able to create a better looking linebacker than Brooks. On the field, he can do it all. He can drop back into coverage, he can weed through traffic and stuff the run, and he can get up field after the passer. Brooks is very versatile on the field; having the ability to play inside or out, and possessing the size to be a 3rd down pass rusher on the line.”
PBL – did they have similar stats on Rogers??
I think Goldson is good – not trying to diminish his contributions by any means. I just place a higher priority on CB (Ronnie Lott will always be an exception to that rule considering he was one of the best ever to play the position in the history of the sport).
A really good CB (like Rogers) can go unnoticed because they don’t get as many opportunities to make plays simply because opposing teams avoid throwing in their direction. Rogers is one of the top cover corners in the league – which is why he was also voted into the Pro Bowl.
@Girl
…for the first time in 8 seasons in the league…
It’s his first time. He’s good and I’m hoping they sign him, but he’s not as valuable as DG. Difference of opinion…
PBL – yep, agree to disagree on this one.
At least we see eye to eye on Kaep ;-)
@PBL:
Please don’t take my words out of context as you did above. Read the whole, think about it, and then come back at me.
How did I take your words out of context? I read your comment to say that safeties are more valuable than CBs. Is that not what you meant? Isn’t that what you mean when you say that “A great FS can mask lesser play by numerous CBs. A shutdown CB can shutdown 1 opposing player”?
I don’t know if Goldson is one of the 5 best free safeties in the league, but I am not ready to call him great. He had a very good year, but while he made some big plays, he also made some kinda big mistakes. I am not saying he cannot grow and get better, but I’d like to see him do so before I jump on the bandwagon.
I also think you underrate Rogers. If he was 3 years younger, it would not even be a question who has more value to the team.
I have no interest in coming back at you (whatever that means). I am just trying to understand what you are saying.
Balls
Obviously, I said it would be different with Revis/Woodson. So my point was that Rogers is not close to those guys, and therefore not as valuable as DG, who, IMO, is top 5 (polamalu, Reed, Weddle, Thomas). “come back at me” means have a nice debate. Thx for the energy, it’s good stuff. I disagree about if CR was 27… The only thing that changes this for me is if Rogers is Woodson. Or if he’s got like 6 probowls. Also, just being rational, I gotta ask if you ever played ball, whether organized or playground? If so, don’t you recall that the safety roams the entire field and can have a much bigger impact on the game? Eh?
PBL,
Most [all?] NFL analysts rate pass rusher as the most important defensive player, with cover corner second.
As was pointed out above, the franchise tag for a CB is around $4M more than that for FS/SS. If FS’s are more important than CB’s, why to you top CB’s are paid so much more than FS’s?
The reason the 49ers franchised DG is twofold. Firstly, as discussed above, the franchise tag number for FS is substantially lower than CB. Secondly, should Rogers walk, the 49ers probably believe they can replace him with another undervalued veteran CB from this year’s deep FA CB pool. It doesn’t have to do with what position is the more important, but rather which is the more practical move.
@exGolfer
Do none of you people read? It’s not only about relative importance of each position, but about the men filling the uniforms. I opine that Goldson is top-5 in the NFL and Rogers is a product of a system that includes Aldon & Justin Smith and the LBs from Hell! I wrote above that if Rogers was Woodson or Revis, the argument would be different. Look at Defensive MVPs of the league over the recent years… more FSs or CBs?
Pork
You maintain that AS was not very good until JH.
Well, how was DG? He had a much worse year last year than AS had, and he was available for any team to pick up for the whole FA period. AS was not. DG was, and nobody wanted him. DG signed for pennies next to what he wanted initially from the Niners. And DG certainly did ‘t have a better game against the Giants than AS had. And both DG and AS were good against the Saints.
So, I can make a better argument that DG was worse than AS was and that JH made him better. (Actually I think DW made DG better, but you see the point).
I can read just fine, PBL. I thought you would be able to infer from my post that I believe Rogers to be at least Goldson’s equal at their respective positions.
And if you want to talk about players being a product of a system, what about DG? Surely, if Rogers’ improved play was a product of the system, then Goldson’s must’ve be, too. Right?
The knock on Rogers has never been that he couldn’t cover, it was that his hands didn’t match up with his superior coverage skills. Up until last year, anyway.
Again, CB is a more important position than FS, so if you have players of equal value, the CB is the more important player.
Again, I’m not saying Goldson is crap, and Rogers is the best CB in the league. What I am saying is that Goldson is of equal, or slightly lesser value at FS, than Rogers at CB.
@exG
Ah, respect. That’s fine. Goldson is cheaper, younger, and in my opinion more valuable because he is top-flight. That’s it. I want both of them back. I think Rogers was the last CB available last year because GMs didn’t think as highly of him as they will this year, but that doesn’t mean he’s any different. So he’s better than he showed at Washington, but not as good as you guys are making him out to be. By the way, when we faced Megatron this year, Culliver covered him all day.
DS
Can’t compare AS & DG. Agree that DW was a monumental acquisition. Alex was horrific before Harbaugh, but it was Frauds fault.
@PBL:
Was out for the weekend, not ignoring your comment. exgolfer pretty much laid out what I would have said. Only thing I would add is that even 2d tier CBs make more than 1st tier FSs. It’s simply a more valuable position.
I agree that I ‘d like to see both Rogers and Goldson back.
Now, if you will excuse me, I think I saw ninermd saying something stupid yet again.
Good point on the Alex Smith negotiations 49ergirl. I agree with you and Maiocco I believe posted something along the lines of other teams not even looking at him because they believe it’s a foregone conclusion he resigns with the Niners. My guess is any contract Smith signs will have a base number of around 8 mill with the ability to recoup more in performance bonus’.
I think the main reason Goldson was franchised was the low number in comparison to other positions. It’s the second lowest franchise total after TE. Makes sense that is the guy they would place it on.
Interesting, Rocket – I didn’t realize that the cost to franchise a player changed based on position (not really an area I’ve done a ton of research on). Thanks – always a good day when you get to learn something new :-)
Now it makes even more sense given the FO’s M.O. Of getting more for less when it comes to contract negotiations.
Your guesstimates on Smiths numbers are about the same as I was thinking.
Bottom line is I hope they can work out deals with all three of them..keep this team as intact as possible!!
Wow Girl I thought you knew more about stuff like this. Ave of top sals of last 5 yrs… 6.2 for DG, 10 for CR
I’m just a die hard fan who’s been watching for around 30 years, but I still have a lot to learn – not ashamed to admit there are things I don’t know yet :-)
I’ll never have the level of understanding as someone who has played or coached (I did play flag football in Jr. High, but that hardly counts as quality experience, lol!) But that’s OK because I’m not exactly trying to pass myself off as an expert either!
49er Girl, You shouldn’t discount your experience. Jr. High flag football is more organized football than some folks on this board who post ad nauseum have.
Keep trying to learn and you will get there.
Girl
I likey. I saw you in that bar in Montana once myself and I think you’re gorgeous… this new CBA is pretty fascinating. Check out this site if you want to learn more: http://www.ninerscaphell.com
for me it comes down to ROI…..
i am drawing a line in the sand and being overly simplistic… age, expected real statistical production (interceptions/pass defended vs 3rd efficiency improvement / redzone success) , what is the expected result of adding certain particular abilities to the mix will do for improving the overall team to performance (i.e improvement of other players such as MC allowing him to find spots between spaces that he is supposedly adept at vs a different scheme to compensate a rogerless corner or slot)….
….franchise tagging rogers would be 9.5 mill or something like that…maybe doing a contract would not be that high but i am sort of skewing to make my point
getting a wallace-type may also be 10 mill
i am of the belief that rogers was a product of a system that had a great front seven that put pressure on the QB as well as was a wall against the running game…..
the niners offense really could take the top off the opposing defenses….wallace would do this undoubtedly…..and i trust that the JH/roman system would allow AS to take advantage of wallace separation speed to time his passes accordingly….not everything is about 60 yds…..
so i would lean to getting a wallace type and letting rogers go because i don’t think you can have both with this cap space….
the niners would just have to figure out which one of their CBs have good swiveling hips and good at anticipating what the rcvr will do…..
i would vote for having the offensive mega buck guy in this case….and let roger walk…..or comeback after he tested free agency and see if can get him on the cheap….otherwise pick a hip swiveling CB in the draft that has some height
@jg
I don’t think a player can come on in here in August (I believe CR signed in August) and do well and say that he is a “system” player.
He didn’t know anybody here. He hadn’t played with any of our starters I believe. And he was great.
A “system”guy to me is somebody who has been around a team for awhile and the system suits them best. Of course, that is also what I call good HC’ing.
on the contrary he had to succumb to the system being played since he was a newbie….just like the oldies had to succumb to the system because it was new to them as well….not saying rogers didn’t have cover skills just sayin the system elevated his play he jumped a couple of routes opportunistically but he is a lazy pursuer and age will make him lazier….and my argument for the above is just divining what is better for the team for the sake of the cap….improving the offense tremendously or decreasing the effectiveness of one position marginally….
and please don’t reply …. way too much replying to everyone….pure definition of blowhard …. it is tiresome to have to skip some many of your posts as well as bays and j23….
JG
… thx for the use of “divining” …
All you guys are crazy. the peyton manning situation wil never happen. Alex smith is the 49ers QB and we could win a super bowl with him too. Hes proved he could make plays when they need him to and he’ll be better then what he was last year.
You’re nust, alex smith is the only reason we didn’t win the superbowl, go watch american idol with the girls while the men discuss football. Alex is garbage.
He proved it with ONE pass. He needs to improve. NO WAY we win the super bowl of he doesn’t. Don’t count on the defense being that good again. They will be close but not as good as last year. Winning close games all year eventually comes to an end. Like the NFC championship game. We need Alex or another qb that can put some points up. NOT our fg kicker!
You can’t say that MD. Evidence shows it can
Be expected. Doesn’t mean you want to
Keep seeing Alex under center while CK rides pine though!!!
>>Don’t count on the defense being that good again. They will be close but not as good as last year.
Why not? Steelers Steel Curtain did it for an entire decade. Our defense is stocked with young, great players. I see it only getting better.
Grant,
Pander….Sad.
The Jim Harbaugh relationship with Alex Smith reminds me of the saying. ” “You got a Face that only a Mother can love” I hope the Niner’s play tough ball with Alex’s agent, and not give in like Peter McGowan did for Barry Bonds and Barry Zito. Although Zito has had a much more accomplished career then Alex has so far.
@Neal:
I hope the Niner’s play tough ball with Alex’s agent
Why, just for spite? There is no evidence that Smith/his agent have asked for anything unreasonable. Why make the negotiations needlessly contentious?
@ Balls,
We don’t know but we can take a good guess that Smith wants more years then the Niners want to give him, because Kaep is the future.
@Neal:
The sides may well have different ideas as to the proper length of the contract (then again, they may not), but why make the negotiations contentious by playing “tough ball”?
because Kaep is the future
It’s interesting. I have heard Jim Harbaugh state definitively that Alex Smith is the 49ers’ long term QB. (actually I read it, but you get my point.) I have not heard him say that Colin Kapernick is the long term QB or that CK is the future. You and others on this blog have said that, but Harbaugh hasn’t.
I think you may be making an assumption based upon what you want to see happen.
@claude
“I think you may be making an assumption based upon what you want to see happen.”
No chance of that.
@DS
I agree with you regarding Mr. Balls. Just the way the balls bounces is a assumption indeed.
A smith hatrers He will show the world next season ull all c and u will all hop on the bandwagon
I’ve heard that for 8 years, lol sorry not gonna happen champ.
i still think the 9ers will sign rogers, snyder and smith then sign a “B” level FA WR then draft intelligently its the balke/harbaugh way
I agree.
For all you Alex haters. I hope he leaves and signs where ever. Then all you haters will be happy. CK not proven and no experience, good luck. PM good luck, one hit and he’ll be in a wheel chair. And who’s system do we run, JH or PM???
CK not proven and no experience.
Alex proven terrible 6/7 years; very good 1/7. The difference? Harbaugh.
The similarity for Smith and CK? Harbaugh. It’s logical, Papa.
…dude….please back up “Alex proven terrible 6/7 years”……..seems you are full of B.S……
No. You want to say he’s been good? The Niners haven’t had a winning season with him until Harbaugh. He’s been terrible. 99% Nolan & Sing, but it falls on Alex.
@papa stan
“And who’s system do we run, JH or PM???”
Neither. The fans would tweet in a play since we know so much more than the HC/GM.
Not to mention our WR options would be shut down. It seems Manning doesn’t want to go anywhere without his security blanket, Reggie Wayne.
Gregg Williams’ Saints put bounties on opposing players!!!
Bounties in the bayou!
Major fallout from this one boys & girls!
My first thought was “sweet – the 49ers just moved up a spot in the draft!” but then I remembered the Saints have no #1 pick this year.
This one is going to make SpyGate look like a toddler’s temper tantrum. Goodell has been emasculating the game in a feeble attempt to avoid crippling CTE lawsuits while one of the “star” franchises was putting bounties on opposing players. Roger is going to crush the Saints worse than Whitner crushed Pierre Thomas.
Speaking of Thomas – weren’t the Saints whining about that hit after the game?
Uhhh FYI to grant this just in Alex smith sucks
Genius alert!!!!!
Hey, Pork: You said above that Smith had played bad for 6 seasons prior to Harbaugh’s arrival.
1. He only played for 4.5 seasons before Harbaugh.
2. From just after his terrible fumble for a Philly TD in game 5 of 2010, he compiled a Passer Rating of just over 90 with something like a 10-2 TD to Int ratio. Projected over a full season, those numbers are slightly better than his 2011 numbers.
Harbaugh did not particularly improve Smith, which may well be part of the reason there were so many non-productive periods for the Niner offense and such a poor record on 3rd down.
If Harbaugh is going to improve Smith, we will see that in 2012.
@dr
I think the thing JH did most for AS this year was to provide AS somebody to contact/talk with about what he saw, thinks, etc. You can be really smart (AS is) but if you have nobody to really bounce ideas/thoughts off, it can really impact your job performance. Remember AS talking about when Trent Dilfer was here? He said it was great to have somebody to talk with. JH is the first guy since Trent to offer that to AS.
I tend to kinda agree with your statement. We saw AS as what he he should have been with a good coach. The greatness will start next year when JH and AS learn more about one another.
And, I even throw out AS first season. That was a complete wreck of a team. The Panthers in 2011 were a much more complete team than the Niners were when they drafted AS. At least they had a good WR to throw at in Steve Smith.
When you do that, AS has played closer to only 3 seasons worth of games in which one could actually gauge his performance.
And the magic number for QB’s is 3 years. And AS in 3 years worth of games, looked pretty good and almost took the team to the Super Bowl.
@DrS
Is there a question here or are you saying Alex in 2011 is the Alex we remember from 2005-present? Harbaugh put Smith in positions in which he washer likely to succeed, i.e. win, as the record shows. Just not sure what your point is? I didn’t attribute blame to
Alex. On the contrary, I put 100% of the responsibility for the Niners pathetic record on John York, Mike Nolan, & the Fraud. Alex is a #1 draft pick with high character and good skills. I like our predicament.
@Drs
Were you making a point?
Pork: Yes…the points are…
1. Alex did not play for 6 seasons before Harbaugh (as you stated), but 4.5, missing 1.5 due to injury.
2. Smith’s performance after the Philly fumble was around the same for the rest of 2010 as it was this past season under Harbaugh. therefore, Harbaugh has not yet changed Smith’s performance (as is commonly stated).
DRs,
Take a look at the stats from the Panthers game, also the raiders game, the Chargers game. All those games were after the Philly game. Those numbers don’t look very impressive. All under 200 yards. 2 below 50% completion .
I don’t think that sample size and opposition late last year tells us enough to conclude that Alex was a different QB before JH. I think the consensus is that JH is responsible for Smiths improvements in 2011.
6/7 years Alex was a bust, 99% due to Nolan & Sing’s inept handling of him. 1/7 he was serviceable, with Harbaugh. You nitpick 4.5 instead if 6, and you point out statistics going back to last year (which sounds like a stat I’ve read on Sando’s web site). Both your points are fine with me, but neither really affects the thrust of my comment, do they? I like Alex, but unless he develops a more Montana-esque field vision, I don’t think he’ll hold off CK7 for very much longer.
..drsgrosse i notice pork trying to avoid your facts….he his all B.S……
He kinda reminds me of AES…….flip flopper
@OneNiner
Got something to say? Anything about football?
DrSGrosse’s point was taken, I’m not ignoring any fact or flip flopping on anything. Who cares Alex was hurt?! That meant he couldn’t produce. For 6/7 years here the Niners have been pathetic. I attribute that to Nolan & Fraud. Now that Harbaugh is here, the Niners are better, and so is Alex. Nothing there is new, nothing flip flopped, and nothing challenged by what Grosse said. And what Grosse said about Alex starting to improve last year is an insight ripped straight off of Mike Sando’s ESPN NFCW Blog. It’s true, but it’s also an outlier in the context of those first 6 years. If that Seattle game marked the beginning of Alex realizing Sing wasn’t going to protect him, then that may be relevant, but it doesn’t change the fact that the Niners were never better than 8-8 with Alex and went 6-10 last year without Harbaugh.
@ DrSGrosse… I don’t know if OneNiner is your lackey or what, but I appreciate that you come to the table with something to offer.
@DrsG
In football, the QB is uniquely capable of protecting himself and avoiding injury. He is required to get rid of the ball quickly. Peyton and Tom Brady have both had relatively injury-free careers, so let’s not make Alex entirely blameless in his own injuries. He takes more sacks than any QB in the league. There is a correlation.
Drs, do you realize that by making the statement above you are actually supporting the anti-Smith stance that it was the defense and special teams that were responsible for the 14-4 record.
If Smith was the same in 2011 as he was in 2010, but the team won 7 more games many can argue that the only differences were defense and special teams playing lights out. I don’t totally agree with that, however that is what your statement says.
“Smith’s performance after the Philly fumble was around the same for the rest of 2010 as it was this past season under Harbaugh. therefore, Harbaugh has not yet changed Smith’s performance (as is commonly stated).”
@pork
oneniner is an original. Like/agree with the guy or not. Nobody is telling him what his opinion will be.
Also, dr found another interesting point earlier in the year. AS has actually had a pretty decent record as well since that Philly game, for games in which he was able to start and finish. Remember a few of those losses were Troy Smith, and he only had 1 win.
So, since that game, AS has had a great ratio of TD:Int, had a winning record (even without last year counting) and has had a number of “clutch” plays.
AS is growing up, and he is getting better. Quickly and substantially to the point of winning a lot of games. And that is how I judge a QB.
@DS
Absolutely correct. Harbaugh is a great coach and deserves a lot of credit. Alex is a #1 draft pick, whose career QB record before arriving at Mike Nolan headquarters was 46-3 at Helix High and Utah. Who’s my preferred QB? I don’t know, honestly, bc I really like Alex. I’m fascinated by CK7 and his limitless potential, and I want to see what he can do under Harbaugh.
DS, if you haven’t already, do yourself a favor and YouTube CKs highlight reel.
PBL,
I can’t speak for drsgrosse, but what I get from that is people tend to overlook some very key elements to Smith’s career so far. He’s now had 7 years in the league but really the last 3 years are what you have to base analysis on because before that he had one injury free season which was his second year. His rookie year and the 3rd and 4th seasons where he was injured really are irrelevant when determining where he is at as a QB.
He’s had two phases in his career: Pre shoulder injuries and post shoulder injuries. If you look at the post shoulder injuries here’s what you see:
38 starts
49 TD’s 27 Ints
A QB rating that has increased in each of those years
22 wins 16 losses including this years playoffs
I’ll be the first to say I’m not a Smither or whatever other moniker people have been given on here, but I’m also not going to hate on the guy when he has shown consistent improvement which he has. There’s too much dishonesty and spin used by those who continue to rip the guy while ignoring the info I posted above.
I’ve said it many times: you don’t have to like the guy or his style, but he’s clearly not the terrible player some like to pretend he is. There’s a reason Harbaugh wanted him to resign last season and there’s a reason he wants him back this year. Smith quietly – well until this season that is – has put together some pretty good numbers the past 3 years and will get a second season in an offense that he likes. There is no guarantee that he will continue the upward climb but there’s no reason to think he won’t either.
Rocket
Your objectivity is unique on this board. On the Hater side you have Jordo/Girl/MD and on the Smither side you have OneNiner/DS/Hof…
–
It should be obvious to all that Alex got a raw deal. It should also be evident that Kaep has massive potential.
A. Smith is coming back period end of discussion. now the question is can he throw 6 to 8 more td’s than last yr. can he throw for 500+ more yards than last yr while throwing for less than 10 ints and lead the 9ers to the western div championship. if he can CK will sit and learn another yr. if he doesnt then i think we will start 2013 with CK at qb
Old Coach: My apologies for my post below appearing just after yours. It was not aimed at you and your post was not there when I wrote mine.
thats what i figured
At 13-3 even Colin’s mother says bring back Alex.
No,only Alex’s Mother and his other realitives on this site believe Alex will be our long term QB. Everyone else believe Kaep is that man. But Alex and Kaep both have a lot to prove.
..TIM actually your mom disagrees with you….
The childishness displayed in this blog continues to amaze me.
@dr.
It is a childs game.
DS: the blog or football?
@dr
:- )
I actually meant football. I think people come on here with the mentality they had when they were kids.
At least, I hope they don’t have this mentality as adults.
….it amazes me too……its like most are trying to be more immature than me…..
It’s good to see somebody have a sense of themselves. You are an original oneniner. I wish other people who “keep it real” also had the same sense.
: – )
I think Alex should be reminded of all the money he’s fleeced the 49ers for when he sucked.
Odawg,
How could he possibly forget. I dont know where these clowns get this 10 mil a year crap from. Pay him what he’s worth. Just like you plan to do Rogers. You plan on letting him go test free agancy and trhen come back and hope he gets a decent deal. Let Smith get out there and see his worth. I don’t see him being woth more than 5 mil a year, just around what he got lat year. Offer him 2 years 10 million. See if he can do better somewhere else. Hes a system QB. This system! Harbaugh made Smith. Kap can do the same things Smith did last year. Yeah he may turn it over a few more times. I also believe that Kap will make a few more plays as well. Throw for more TD’s also. I also belive even Smith is gonna throw more picks this year.
I hope the Niners are waiting for a reason. Get some competition in here. Manning?? Josh Johnson?? Lets put the best QB we can out there.
Jordan, Glad to see that you are drunk posting again. Whatcha got tonight? A nice Keystone 40 ouncer?
Another post showing your anti-Smith junk. Just as the sun rises in the East and sets in the West, at least your BS is consistent.
Jack azz,
Thankful that you are monitoring the site. Good job jack wagon. Hows the kool aid tasting to you?
Jordan, your name calling is as weak as your anti-Smith BS. How does that Schlitz Malt Liguor taste?
Step up your game and bring something more to the table.
Your recent postings have been speculative nonsense, Grant. What happened to the good reporting during the season? I’m surprised Pressdemo permits such self-indulgence under its masthead.
@Oldtimer
Question: What would you have Grant report on?
Brooks signs, we discuss it and the possible impacts.
Goldson ‘Franchise Tagged’, we discuss it and the possible impacts.
Its the Off-Season. Whaddaya ‘spect? Did you tune in for an Edward R Murrow Symposium, or to feed your Football Jones?
Me, I’m feeding the jones.
i’ve noticed a differece in his writing since the season ended also. its the difference between reporting and prognosticating. i just think he needs to make it a little clearer that most of what he says carries no more weight than what any of us posters have to say. its just guessing
@old coach
Here is a thought.
Grant sees the other blog starting to go downhill (and it was. And I was partly at fault for it).
You woke up at 7 and said the blog had not changed.
So, maybe Grant just writes something up to get a new blog. If you have noticed a trend:
When Grant posts, we all get along (at least we don’t throw too many insults). Then as time wares on, people start insulting others until it becomes that blog when Grant left on vacation.
I have actually suggested several times to Grant when a blog starts going downhill, to just write something. Anything to get a new blog going. For one thing, people see the insults on an old blog and feel compelled to reply. And in a new blog, there are fewer insults. We are all giving our thoughts on 1. Grant’s opinion and 2. Each others.
At some period of time (usually a few days) the blog gets personal and insults become the norm.
Maybe Grant took my advice here, and just wrote something up to stop the fighting. And, for the most part, it worked (at least for now, but not for long).
I still can’t believe you guys….you’ve just had your team in the playoffs for the first time in 8 years, and you’re ready to disassemble it through stupid trades, and careless free agency moves. ‘Said it before and I say it again, CK may never see the playing field except for injury or mop-up duty. He hasn’t yet proven that he deserves to be playing. We need our WR lack addressed with 2 FA’s and 1 draftee (or vice-versa) who can spread the field. Alex is going to be a niner for the forseeable future, so get used to it. Get real…we’ve got a coach who despite all odds got us to the NFC championship, and the only thing that would detract from his image would be if he took his 13-3 QB off the field for a total unknown.
@ore. i agree with most of your last post other than the part about FA WR’s i think we will get them through the draft with maybe a minor FA WR signing
@oregon
We need our WR’s to get open. Whatever that means. Whomever we get. They have to do it a lot more frequently than the WR core we had line up last year.
There is no reason why any team will deviate from what the Giants did to us. Look at our division. The Cards and Seahawks started winning a lot of games the 2nd half of the season. They both have good defenses. And AZ has PP. He shut down MC after MC had taken him to school in game 1. If MC can’t do better, and he is the #1, then we are going to be in trouble every time we face that team. It stands to reason that PP is going to get a whole lot better.
And, the Seahawks and Cards have better defenses than the Giants do.
“It stands to reason that PP is going to get a whole lot better.”
Who cares about urine!! Stay on topic, DS.
(sorry. I know. but I couldn’t resist)
@el
You will care about pee-pee when its all over you and you can’t rid yourself of it’s stink.
Appropriate reply to your post and mine.
@oregoniner – AMEN
as much as i’m open to calling a spade a spade when it comes to Alex, i dont think there’s any slap in the face intended if he makes it to free agency.
i imagine the cap process is intricate enough so that the unique structure of existing contracts has to be taken into account when structuring a new contract, so as to manage cap numbers in 2012 and 2013 in particular.
so, a sequential approach to free agents may make some sense.
Harbaugh has gone WAY out of his way to make certain Alex knows that he is wanted by the team. Alex also seems very mature, and frankly this is one of his better traits that i’ve not bothered to mention before. if Alex craved adulation or “respect” in current parlance, he could easily have made some demands in the last 12 months. but he knows he was paid a ton of money when he was drafted, is pretty well paid versus US median income, and will be well paid as long as he plays at an NFL calibre. Alex sees the forest from the trees. he wants to be a winner in the city and with the franchise that picked him #1. this is one of his most wonderful traits from my eye. he’s a very solid individual.
away from that, none of my “predictions” for our free agent signings has changed, altho increasingly it looks like the two key signings i believe are wise/required – Rogers and a frontline WR – may mean that some other players will be asked to restructure their contracts. but i would be shocked if those players wouldnt do it. do you want to just play in the NFL, or do you want to make history? now that they’ve tasted the NFC Championship game, its a slam dunk that they’ll choose the latter.
@fesnyc
“Alex sees the forest from the trees. he wants to be a winner in the city and with the franchise that picked him #1. this is one of his most wonderful traits from my eye. he’s a very solid individual. ”
The reason why I supported him. That and his teammates always have.
The Egos of QB’s drive me nuts, The draw back of capitalism is their is way to much greed, sure get what you want, but when manning and now brees wants 23 million a year when they are all ready set for life makes me want to puke! They also want great targets and aline, Plus you want a great defense, share the wealth! If brees gets 23 million a year, smith can make a case he beat “brees” and should make 15 million, absurd when I personally would only give smith 5 or 8 mill a year, Plus smith will want a signing bonus, if that gets to be the case, lets go with the youngsters unless we try for manning but even when Favre was jumping teams he was getting a ton of jack when yes the QB is most important but their are a ton of other things that go into football, look what a good special teams coach helped yes greatly, Anybody else fed up with the greed by QB:?s then are confused why their team can not get other high quality free agents!
@rebelscum
They are all paid stupid money. None of them deserve it. The owners don’t deserve it. The ticket prices and prices to park/eat at a stadium are ridiculous. The whole system is messed up.
The player who pisses me off the most is the kid coming out of college who is going to make a ton of money. Even a min contract is more money than a college grad is likely to get in 3-7 years straight of working.
For a player to come out of college playing a game he loves so much (supposedly) and then not to want to sign quickly and get to work is just disgusting. These divas have no idea what the real world is remotely like for college grads. You get a job, you are thrilled.
You don’t get a job, then go “Well, boss, thanks for hiring me. But I don’t want to come to work until you pay me more than the guys who have been in your company a lot longer and actually helped the company become successful.”
Playing a professional sport is a privilege. Not a right. Don’t treat it as such (a right).
I agree 100 percent!
Spoken like a true commie pinko…
You are one of 32 – 36 best guys in the world at what you do! You have a chance to take care of your family forever and possibly way into the future! Their own homes their costless low stress life that all Americans want and dream about. Then again listening to you probably wouldn’t want to keep score either to render the whole damn game pointless because YOU WOULDN”T BE GETTING THE BEST there is! Which is the point of almost everything….
I mean come on!
There’s no slapping of anyone’s face here. That’s clearly hyperbole. Alex will re-sign; I’m sure TB & JH are getting all their ducks in a row to figure out how much to offer. I think everyone knows he’s in the best possible situation here, and JH obviously appreciates his value to this team. But I wouldn’t go so far as to say he has “no value” to any other team. How many teams out there need a QB? There are only so many Peyton Mannings, Andrew Lucks and RG3s to go around. Alex would be an upgrade over the dreck that two of our division rivals have, and don’t you think Pete Carroll would smile inside at taking away JH’s guy? But it’s very hard to imagine anyone breaking the bank for Alex. I’m just hoping he feels like he’s made enough money and now wants to get paid market value to win, not get paid like a superstar to soothe his ego. I’m going with the former.
Bottom line it’s a business, I’m for the players getting as much as they can. The owners are not running a charity. All of these long term contracts can be torn up after the first year. And yes it’s a privilege to play, it’s a privilege to have post concussion syndrome, to walk with a limp the rest of your life, to be forgotten by a system that takes in much more than it gives back. So when I hear talk that so and so is overpaid I laugh.
Now Saints ownership is saying that Drew Brees is a good QB not a great QB. When he won the SB he was a great QB, when he negotiates a new contract he’s only a good QB. He’s a great QB pay him like one.
I agree overall Andrew but I do think QB salaries have become ridiculous compared to other positions.
I don’t like seeing 20% of the salary cap going to one player. It leads to situations like the Colts where the rest of the team is weak. Also, those minimum wage guys are more at risk for crippling injuries and CTE than QBs are. QBs are protected, coddled and rewarded. Special teams players get the leftovers and not much protection. A punt return gunner doesn’t get to wear a skirt for $20 million a year.
That is pretty much what I was trying to say!
The problem is a punt coverage team gunner is an easily replaceable player, a star QB isn’t. Just as a stunt man is easily replaceable and a star actor isn’t. You may say “unfair”, but that’s the way it is.
@exgolfer Excellent analogy – I really like that. My brain agrees with you but my gut doesn’t like it.
I hear you, MSC.
Alex will re-sign. Money may be a secondary issue. The length of the contract will likely be the sticking point here.
Alex and company may be asking somewhere between a 4-6 yr deal, while the Org will probably seek a 2-4 yrs.
Training camp will be more important for CK than Alex because Kaep will need to show a vast improvement to the Org in order to justify Harbaugh/Baalke’ draft day moves to aquire him. I also believe that if we sign a F/A speed receiver or draft one, that CK will be the one to benefit the most in T/C because of his cannon arm. Alex has shown that he can make the long throw, it just doesn’t seem that he’s comfortable with it. This is where CK could excel and make up some space between himself and Alex.
Exactly
…and you know this because CK won a NFL game throwing 60 yard passes….
you morons amaze me with your speculations……at least give us something close to reality…..
none of you idiots really know how CK will perform in a full season……why not just wait and watch a game before putting your chips on the table…..
the funny thing none of you loofs quote his preseason games last year as a back up to your speculations…..
@ 1Niner
You shouldn’t hurl words like idiot & loof around so casually. Make an argument. String some words together. I’m not a Hater and I’m not a Smither. He played outstanding football most of the year and proved himself in many ways, but CK7 is simply an out of this world athlete. He has measurables that Alex can’t come close to matching, so for Alex to be a clear cut favorite you’d have to point to his intangibles… um, like his anticipation.
…when did measurables become a factor in saying a QB is successful in the NFL……..call me stupid but i thought it was all about performance…
…..see him perform first before judging the guy…….this is the same mistake you loofs made regarding VD and Alex……
…J. Russel and Pryor are better athletes than CK……. that is an opinion i bet you can’t argue…..
CK7 ran faster and threw harder than Cam Newton.
–
40 Times:
Russell – 4.8
Pryor – 4.4
Kaepernick – 4.5
Smith – 4.7
–
No comment as to anything else you said.
@oneNiner
All about performance? No, not really. It’s all about the relationship between the coach and the QB, and how the team applies its QBs talents. If it was all about performance you would only be able to support Alex up until the draft, then you’d have to fall into the Hater category because Alex never got us a winning record. It was not on Alex though. It was on Nolan/Fraud.
Cam Newton managed to throw for a lot of yards in the Panthers losses, and managed the Panthers well in their wins.
Guess which is more important? Managing a game or throwing for yards?
J. Russel managed to keep in business several McDonald’s and KFC locations with his multiple trips/day visits. Often during meeting hours.
PBL, just being athletic doesn’t make a QB good/great. Do you think the top two QB’s when healthy – PM and TB are very athletic? Running fast doesn’t mean a whole lot when a QB is in the pocket looking to throw down field.
The last 9 SB QB’s:
EManning – 4.85 40 time
ARodgers – 4.71 40 time
DBrees – 4.67 40 time
BRoethlisberger – 4.75 40 time
EManning
PManning
BR
TBrady
TBrady
Of course the guys listed above are athletic but 40 dash speed doesn’t make them better QB’s. Nor does having a strong arm make a QB an instant winner. There’s a lot more to playing QB than being the most athletic QB on the field. JH has stated that not turning over the ball and intelligence is high on his list.
Hof
–
I’m not a Hater. I like Alex Smith. He is also a good athlete.
–
Rogers is better than both Brady and Manning. He is also a better athlete.
–
In sum, being a freak athlete AND being Harbaugh’s hand-picked QB is a pretty good bet.
All yAll
Can’t possibly be arguing that athleticism is a liability, right?
–
Troy Aikman = Game Manager
Joe Montana/John Elway/Eli Manning = Clutch Hero QBs
–
Alex almost got there…
Oneniner,
You are as bad as Jordan only to the opposite end of the spectrum. Do you honestly think you’ll get a good response when you refer to people as morons, idiots and loofs in one post? Grow up man seriously.
PBL,
The biggest issue I see with Kap is his lack of experience in a pro system. The pistol he ran at Nevada was mostly a one side of the field read and go type of offense that made use of his considerable athletic talent. That doesn’t translate to the WCO Harbaugh and Roman run.
Again, not saying he can’t do it, but it’s not the slam dunk you seem to be saying it is either. I find it hard to believe that Harbaugh would be saying Smith is his guy and QB of the future if they were supremely confident in Kap at this point. Let’s just hope Kap does progress to the point where they have a difficult decision to make.
@pork
“Can’t possibly be arguing that athleticism is a liability, right?”
Well, if you don’t know how/when to use it, it sure can. Why hasn’t MV dominated the NFL then? He is by far more athletic than JM/SY/AR. You name them, MC is way more athletic and he can throw it as far as Andy Lee can kick it.
Sometimes, it might help if the QB isn’t athletic. If he knows he can’t do something, he won’t try and he won’t turn the ball over.
If the QB knows he is athletic, then he knows he can do it. And then there are 3 possibilities:
1. He gets it.
2. He tries and fails to get it. And in the process might get injured.
3. He tries and fails to get it, and he turns the ball over.
If option 1 or 2 happens (and he avoids injury), then there is nothing all that bad as a consequence since the non-athletic QB wouldn’t have gotten it either.
But if option 3 happens, you actually hurt your team. So, you being athletic in reality, did hurt the team more than if you were not if option 3 happens at inopportune times especially.
The difference between the athletic QB’s you bring up and MV, is that those other ones learned how and when to try something. They learned to know when to take risks and when not to. MV has not. Thus MV loses game after game in the 4th quarter when all line of reasoning says his athleticism should really help him win those games.
Hey Everyone
DS just said it’s better to have an unathletic QB than an athletic one. He said athletic QBs can’t help but let their athleticism force them into mistakes that less athletic QBs wouldn’t make. Somewhere down this line of argument, he will claim that Alex is a better QB than Kaep because he is less athletic. He is also implying that Harbaugh can coach Alex into protecting the football but not Kaep.
–
(paraphrase liberties taken)
;)
PBL, I think what DS is trying to say is that you don’t need to be a fast runner or run around all over the place to be a very good QB.
The key to being a good QB is the ability to feel pressure, move within the pocket, and keeping your feet balanced so you can throw, and having the presence to know when it is time to escape the pocket and scramble. The top QB’s in the NFL that are winning Super Bowls all have these qualities.
Please name one Mike Vick, Randall Cunningham type super athletic QB that has ever won a Super Bowl.
Jack
Steve Young is a highly regarded athlete, running QB who won a Super Bowl. He was coached to understand how to use his talents. I have never said that Vick is the model. I am simply saying that given what Harbaugh has accomplished with Gannon, Johnson, Luck, & Smith, once he really feels comfortable with Kaep, who is a far superior athlete to all of them, the Niners will be Nuclear, possessing a QB threat rivaling Newton in terms of athleticism and any Harbaugh QB in terms of playing the position!
…@rocket -…its called the ignore button…..
@ pork….
first it was measurable’s now it’s all about the relationship between the coach and the QB, and how the team applies its QBs talents.
……first you flipped and then you flopped……
and please lets not mis-comunicate the word “hater”……A hater does not mean you don’t like Alex……
..A hater wants and hopes Alex fails so he or she can say see I told you he sucked…….put my QB in (example Carr, T Smith, Hill etc)
….A hater looks at the stats/situations/environment and factually knows Alex is a good NFL QB but instead convinces him or herself that Alex is one of the worst NFL QB…….
….A hater prays for Alex to be injured….
…A hater creates a measuring stick only for Alex while providing another measuring stick for all other QB’s…..
…A hater is just not disliking Alex….a hater wants Alex gone, if possible Alex not playing in the NFL ever……
in the end its really not about Alex but more about how the hater can make their sad pathetic lives more relevant than it is…….by their opinions being right about Alex (or that they buy tickets which according to them makes them better fans) its provides some kind of temporary boost to the confidence of their sorry lives…..unfortunately Alex has been golden and their opinions have been pure comedy or borderline retarded….pure example of course is the latin racist “ninermd”………
@ OneNiner
Thx for outlining your thoughts on what makes a Hater. Me flip flop? Never!!!
I said CKs measurables far outshine Alex’s, then you mentioned performance, then I responded by saying performance is based on coaching up a QBs talents and applying them. It’s not flip flopping, and it’s not ard to understand. In fact I’m sure you do get it, but you’re just being difficult. Alex has NEVER performed without good coaching. Same applies to EVERY QB in the league. CK has a much higher athletic ceiling than Alex, and can make every throw in the playbook, whereas Alex has repeatedly shown that he has trouble with certain throws.
I am a Smither! But CK7 is a much more intriguing prospect because is far more physically gifted.
Pork I have no issues with you cuz most of the times you do make it clear you have opinions based on your imaginations…
“CK …….can make every throw in the playbook”…………I am guessing this is one of your imaginary opinions …….
…..unless of course you have seen him make all these throws and you have seen the playbook….
…..”Alex has NEVER performed without good coaching”……
Hate to say it but he actually did perform or play well in most games under bad coaching…….look at the stats
……Maybe Grant can do a “where are they now” on Alex OC, QB coaches……by now you would think they had proved to all that it wasn’t the coaches but it was Alex fault they sucked……
Alex proved last year it was the coaching…….
@One
was that with a straight face? Alex was good under Norv and great this last year, but mostly he wasn’t ever put in a position to do well. Of course, there was that game a couple years ago against the Texans where he came in in the second half and played perfect QB… etc
@pork
Please re-read my post. And continue re-reading it until you come to a completely different conclusion than you did.
@oneniner
Very good description of a hater.
But, those who are haters just don’t get what it is that makes them so. They think it has to do with giving a player a tough evaluation. It really doesn’t.
A hater can write your definition of who is and who is not a hater a 100 times on a chalkboard and still not change their mind.
>>Joe Montana/John Elway/Eli Manning = Clutch Hero QBs – Alex almost got there…
Wait, what? Elway a clutch hero and Alex “almost got there?” How many years of playoff futility and how many superbowl losses did it take for Elway to become your “clutch hero”? And after his *very first* playoff run you say Alex “almost got there”?
I’ll answer, it took 17 playoff games over 15 “amost getting there” seasons before Elway became a champion. How many in the hater brigade will give AS that big of a window – 15 more playoff games until he leads the Niners to a SB win?
DS & OneNiner are the same person
–
Check out early season reports on CK7s arm, sound of ball whistling through air, sound on impact hitting guys’ gloves.
–
Look at CKs ESPN sports science out takes: strongest arm in NFL, second most accurate in 2011 draft drills, only to Dalton…
–
imagine that
“DS & OneNiner are the same person”…….cmon ..not u also……didn’t think you will resort to that just to make a point or validate your opinion
……by the way Grant already debunked that lame thought….
….sport science comes on espn over here alot….and dalton was their candidate to prove the hypothesis…
…..i don’t need to check early season reports…i have a brain so i will wait till i see him in real game situation before i judge CK……
You have EXACTLY the same tone and arguments as DS.
Prove what hypothesis? They were both featured.
All the local reporters at TC said CKs ball had electrifying zip/velocity.
QB Colin Kaepernick, Nevada (2nd round, no. 45 overall): His qualities include his foot speed and height (over 6-4) and his arm strength. When Baalke and coach Jim Harbaugh ran Kaepernick’s workout in Nevada, Baalke was impressed by how quickly he picked up instructions. He also liked his intelligence and passion and the fact he showed some intangibles in college. The tape was revealing, particularly one clip of Kaepernick slinging the ball 25 yards down field while running to his left. Baalke pointed out that Kaepernick can throw accurately from different arm angles, which is a NFL must. Baalke also showed another clip of Kaepernick looking to his left and then shifting quickly and throwing to his right. The pass went over the heads of the linebackers and found the receiver before the defensive backs could descend. The play only took 2.5 seconds. ”
–
“All the local reporters at TC said CKs ball had electrifying zip/velocity”………..
…..dude…you can’t be serious….
Football is a tricky business. Your QB can be crushed and lost at any moment at anytime for a season maybe forever An arm injury kept 9ers fans from having Joe Montana another 4 to 5 years and probably 2 or 3 rings. I ask you do you think Joe would be worth todays money? Everybody should want the best. Football is Americana you are one of the best at what you do You deserve to be paid the best. You don’t know from one year to the next when you sign him to a contract. He could play lights out one year and then suck ass the rest of his career and the NFL history books show it. Besides if there was no union this conversation wouldn’t be happening.
I’m 99% sure Alex will be signed before F/A arrives. I think Alex is like a “girlfriend” you’ve known since kindegarten, who is a great person and would do anything for you, however she’s rather plain looking. Eventually she hopes to marry you. You just want to remain great friends because you’re waiting on a Sofia Vergara. The leverage rests with the 49ers, and I assume the contract is already on ice ready to pop. Just waiting to finalize the numbers, and the cap maneuvering.
Exactly Razor ! Very well said !
I also must agree. I was a fan of Alex when he was at Utah. After all the unproductive years I was also clamoring for his release. However, he showed up when it counted and I really believe what Coach Harbaugh says, the improvement shows great strides in year two. Forty Niners pre season #1!
Now the NFL has it’s eye on the Big Bad Saints for having hit squads. Don’t leave your houses, lock your doors. You want to talk about hits, watch some 49er video of last season. They destroyed the opposition, each game the other teams running backs left the game and never came back. I think the headline should read, Saints not tough enough, coaches do whatever they can to win. They have penalties for hitting too hard, too high, too low etc. etc. Vincent T. Lombardi’s philosophy still rules, “Winning isn’t everything, it’s the only thing”. It seems that thinking is leaving us. Excuse me I have to watch a game of cricket, much less violent.
@ Andrew
Not to the crickets it isn’t! Leave ‘em alone! Quit whacking them!
Basically what the 49ers are saying is test the waters and see what youre worth. Then sign what we offer or take the same money somewhere else in a new situation. Alex Smith is smart he will figure this out on his own. It will be Trent Blakes doing because Jim Harbaugh have no say so regarding players salary, so JH straddles both sides by being Alex’s best buddy and say man I think your worth more but hey its not up to me.
: )
The Saints are in big trouble folks. The owner Mr. Benson boogie was aware of the hit squad he had and told the coaches to put a stop to it. They ignored the owner and kept it up.
Sort of telling, especially how they came after our QB’s in the preseason. The city of N.O. certainly doesn’t deserve what is about to happen to their team, but the team itself does.
You’ll see draft picks taken away, fines levied on the owner, head coach and defensive coach. Suspensions on top of fines?
Maybe Drew Brees will want out so that he’s not associated with this mess. Baalke, give that man a call….
Take all the cap money Baalke and spend it on Brees. Alex is like pouring sand in a gopher hole.
Hahaha. You’d think this was a facebook group. Same old you don’t know anything about football insults from the Alex Smith folks when someone has a differing opinion of their fair haired golden child.
Smith proved in the NFC championship game he’s no better than he has been all his career. Harbaugh did a masterful job of hiding Alex’s shortcomings. If they can’t sign Brees or Manning, it’s time for the Alex Smith experiment to be over and for Colin Kaepernick to get his chance.
He was statistically superior to Eli. The only proven quantities in that game were the Niners’ ferocious D and KW’s hands of stone.
Mr.
I don’t know what these fools see in Smith. I can’t wait for the excuse they use this season when he looks the same way that he has his whole career. “Average and inconsistent, inaccurate!”
“just wait until next year when he’s had 2 1/2 years in the same system and 9 years in the league!” then it will be,” just wait for the 10th year!!!!”
Smiths ceiling is right inside the padding of his helmet! He has reached it folks.
Jordan,
And how do you know that Smith has reached his ceiling? Even you had to admit that he improved this year [unless you are going to take it all back, now]. How can you, or anyone for that matter, know that Smith has reached his ceiling? If you can, you should quit what ever job you have and go to work in a NFL front office. Someone with that kind of insight should be running a team.
I agree with you Bay, that the Saints could be in huge trouble. I was thinking the same thing that Brees might want to opt out. He is asking 23 million a year. If we sign Brees then that leaves little room for improving our other weak positions like WR and gaurd. I do believe Baalke is the man but I am not sure even he could pull that off. Personaly, even tho I do like AS I think our QB is already on the team and I am not speaking of CK.
It certainly does explain the Saints play during the 1st pre-season game.
Do you think those knuckleheads had the gall to put bounties on during the 1st preseason game? JFC, that’s weak.
Yeah dude, especially since Hardballs didn’t call to discuss blitz-etiquette beforehand. You KNOW Williams got all heated and tried to exact revenge and teach a lesson. Well, he got his. Those guys are going to burn!
Sucks to be the Rams when their new DC is likely to be suspended.
@ribico
“Sucks to be the Rams when their new DC is likely to be suspended.”
For what?
@ DS
He was the Saints DC he will be suspended for his role. I am thinking that he might get suspended for a year.
Not only is Gregg Williams on the Rams, so is Jeff Fischer who instituted the same bounty program in Tennessee. The NFL will give refs more air time next season to clamp down on these cheap shots. But it’s tough to determine intent at the speed the game is played. So I don’t know how that will work. Fines may increase even more. My hope is that guys twisting Gore’s ankles after the play will stop. I’ve noticed opponents twisting his ankles and knees after tackling him. Gore is too tough to complain and refs should be on the lookout for cheap acts like that.
@Bay
That alone wouldn’t drive Brees away imo; he’s not a quitter. BUT, in context with The GM saying Brees is good, not great and balking at paying him? Maybe his loyalty is being tested a little. Even in the remote chance he doesn’t re-sign, I’m not seeing SF as a likely landing spot.
I agree that the NFL will bring the hammer down hard.
I also agree that Fisher-G.Williams-Schwartz coached up the ‘playing to the echo of the whistle’ style. That style pushes the envelope. Undesignated bounties (for any cart-off) crosses the line. Targeting an opposing player with a designated bounty is completely off the reservation.
Playing hard, delivering “Whoooo! Hits” is part of the game. I noted that before the NO Playoff game, Harbaugh poo-pooed the talk about revenge for preseason by saying he doesn’t seek or give any quarter. But, if the NFL and the NFLPA are serious about player safety, this should be part of the discussion.
Trouble or not, Brees is going nowhere. Bay, better gin up your plan B with Peyton.
“Brees was designated an exclusive rights franchise player, which prevents Brees from having the ability to negotiate with other teams and secures him as the Saints quarterback in 2012.”
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8275c9d5/article/saints-use-exclusive-rights-franchise-tag-on-qb-brees
Harbaugh said that Newton was like plutonium raw material so i really want to know what he thinked of CK cuz his arm was stronger and he runs faster that isnt a signal for me that Harbaugh thinks of CK being a backup.
I would give Smith 3-4 years and for a max of 20-25 million
For those who continue to slam Alex Smith(and the ones who don’t believe he was a key part in the playoff win over the “Bounty” Saints, this article is for you. It is full of a lot of truths.
http://ninernoise.com/2012/03/02/the-expectations-of-playing-qb-for-the-49ers/
More or less, it shows how difficult it is to be a QB for the Niners and why CK could face the same scrutiny if he can’t deliver the way fans want him to.
Baalke has a responsibility as a GM to pay a player what he can to keep the team in a winning situation. Let anyone who thinks they can make a killing in free agency test the waters unless you believe they are too valuable to lose. Allow them to see if they are worth as much as he thinks.
Sign the player to a deal that baalke thinks that player is worth ho this team. Simply put, Smith is no Patrick Willis. He has little value leaguewide. Two teams, Jacksonville and Cleveland. He could start for them. Will Smith make it to free agency??? It won’t hurt this team either way.
I say we wait for free agency. I say we call Peyton and Josh Johnson. After all, Iron sharpens Iron right? That what the Smithers QB guru said.
The Smithers are quietly worrying about their hero not being a Niner next year. Where is that pesky contract extension??? Contract extension on the 27th of march???? Hmmm…….
Notice I’m not busting your chops in the offseason, Jordo, when Alex is an outsider, but naming only Jax & Cleveland is just stupid. You’re right about Jax, wrong about Cleveland. McCoy is better than Alex, by a wide margin. But here are several other teams that should want Alex:
Seahawks
Cardinals
Raiders
Jets
Dolphins
Redskins
Broncos
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Will any of them offer big $$$? Who knows, but if they do, we should let Alex walk, then bring in either Johnson or draft Wilson.
…”McCoy is better than Alex, by a wide margin”………ha ha ha……you truly are a loof…
PBL, saying that “McCoy is better than Alex, by a wide margin” is laughable.
What have you seen from McCoy in 2 years that would make you even think that.
Opinion… what is a “loof?”
Jack… I saw him stand in the pocket and deliver on-target throws as he was being crushed. That Harrison hit might have ended McCoys career, but that kid had some serious stones. Did you watch McCoy enough to get a well-formed opinion of him? There are few QBs that I watch who remind me of Montana, but McCoy did in his first game, so I made it a point to watch all his games (DirecTV NFL Package). McCoy might not come back from that Harrison cheap-shot to his grill, which would be sad.
Pork,
disagree with your list.
Seattle maybe. Tavaris is equal to Smith IMO. They both have moments where they look like a real NFL QB, and then they have crap their pants moments.
Cardinals actually have Skelton who I believe will be a better QB than Smith. Remember Smith has years behind center so it is fair at this point to assess where he is. Give Skelton a little time, I think he will surpass Smith in every aspect of the game. Except protecting the ball…..
Raiders? No way. Carson Palmer new team, bad line, played with mostly rookie receivers last year, no training camp. Let these two compete and Carson is on another planet than Smith. The Closest Smith gets to being a Raider is sleeping with his wife who is an ex Raider cheerleader…
Jets? If the Jets were in another city, I’d say you had a point. Remember the BOO game at Candlestick against the Eagles? Smith would get boo’ed like that in NY every game. It would destroy the little bit of confidence Harbaugh worked hard to build in him.
Dolphins…hmmm. Smith is an upgrade over what they have now if they run a system that fits his style of play. But they are bringing Flynn in I believe who the entire NFL would take over Smith in a heartbeat.
Redskins… Yep. Would probably be a good fit. Except rumor has it they are willing to trade the world for RGIII. The entire NFL would take RGIII over Smith right now… What does that say about Smith? 8 year VET in his prime and just went to the NFC Championship game and the entire NFL would take a rookie over you… speaks VOLUMES.
Broncos… Yes Smith is better than Tebow. I am not so sure he is better than Brady Quinn. I’ve always liked Quinn. Cleveland made a huge mistake letting him go IMO.
Carson II has a lot to prove. He’s an interception machine. Carson I beats Smith easy, but not sure about Carson II. Maybe you have a point about Skelton.
–
The rest, you’re just letting your Haterade affect your judgment!
Crazy PBL. I have watched him and he is good, but to say he is far and away better than Smith is quite a stretch.
Original. Haterade… lol. I like it.
Dang, Pork. You’re even mentioning McCoy in the same breath as Montana? How? He may not hold onto his job this next season.
Personally I’m not buying that McCoy is better than Alex, (let alone by a wide margin),although now we’re just getting into opinions. Imo, McCoy is another Ty Detmer; dependable short/medium reliever, meaning he could lead a team for a 2-3 game stretch without there being too much drop-off from the starter. That’s the role I think Tolzein could evolve into.
Usually I’m in the same ballpark with your assessments, but this one, not so much.
PBL, here is how I would rate each of you potential suitors for Alex Smith:
Seahawks – possible, but they just signed Jackson last year and the only time he didn’t play was hurt.
Cardinals – no way. Just paid a bunch for Kolb and their wagon is hitched to him barring injury for 1-2 more years.
Raiders – no way. Just gave up their #1 pick for Palmer.
Jets – Sanchez is already there and they won’t move away from him yet.
Dolphins – only if they can’t get Flynn who is their natural target due to relationship with new HC.
Redskins – maybe, but still have young QB in Beck and improved over 2nd half after being depleted by injuries early on.
Broncos – Tebow, enough said.
@Brotha
We all have our foibles, and I’m fully aware that my high regard for McCoy is outlandish. He’s a good athlete and a winner though, and he’s accurate. And confident. I think the Detmer comp is insightful, but he wasn’t the athlete Colt is.
@Jack
Not saying any of those teams will pursue Alex, just that he could start for any of them (as opposed to 23J who said just Jax & Cleve).
Bay, during the debate here the last couple of years you also stated how great KKolb was and that if not a 9er he would tear up the league…but NOW you say JSkelton will replace him in as starter in AZ!!? In your synopsis you forgot TSmith. You were correct on that one as well! lol
Bay,
Tavaris Jackson is the equal of Smith? Come on, man, you’ve got to be joking. What do you base that on?
Ex, Bay is basing that off of his dislike for Smith and inability to see things through anything but a skewed lense.
Remember, this is the same guy who last year was clamoring for us to pick up Kevin Kolb, but now thinks that John Skelton should be the Arizona QB. BTW, he thinks Skelton is better than Smith too.
Pork,
Should want Alex but don’t!! It’s actually stupid for you to assume they would. I don’t see Colt being better than Smith. I see Smith being a tad better. Just because of what he learned last year.
Jordo
Don’t be a dick…
Thanks,
PBL
Jack,
I know Bay’s point of view very well. It was funny after the Saint playoff game. He was starting to position himself to be able to say that he always liked Smith and was only hammering him because he hadn’t shown it up to now, etc., etc. Then the ref blew an early whistle [the Bradshaw non-fumble fumble], KW happened and Goldson took out Rogers and Brown [each time preventing INT's]. And, presto, it was like the NO game never happened. Bay was back to bashing Smith. But comparing him to TJ? That’s just ridiculous, even for Bay.
Jordan, you are getting more disconnected from reality regarding this team as time goes on. It’s a combination of sad and hilarity reading your postings.
Ribico,
Wouldn’t expect anything less from a smith lover. Keep drinking the kool aid. That extension is how much? How long? Bwahahahaha !!!
I’m drinking a nice tonic our coach of the year is serving. Too bad your glass is filled with bile.
Bottoms up, jordo.
Pork’s list is spot on. They had this discussion on NFL Net’s Total Access last week and they suggested a couple of additional teams including Cleveland. McCoy? lol. Although the ‘agenda addicted” that post here don’t want to hear it. The “AA” boys think if they post enough of this anti crap that soon someone, anyone, will start to believe their nonsense. Ain’t gonna happen!
JH stated at the AT&T that it is “well documented that AS is his long term QB”. Now get some playmakers TB!
Hofer, I believe Alex will resign and be the starting QB next year.
But until Alex actually signs there is still hope!
(I kid, I kid)
(mostly)
Haven’t watched him enough then. Either that or you think more highly of Smith than I do, but I like Smith.
–
FTR, I’m of a small minority that would see McCoy going to multiple pro bowls if he remained healthy and with Shurmur. I think the Harrison hit might have ruined him though, because his dad was so livid about it.
–
If I’m crazy, Jack, I can handle that, but I’d say you’re going out on a limb if you’re backing Alex over 2/3 of the league based on his performance last year alone. There are so many arguments here, and you seem like a nice/smart guy, so I don’t mind just leaving it at that.
–
PBL, didn’t say you were crazy, just that opinion. I only based my opinion off performances from 2011 against common opponents, not a like or dislike for either player.
In those games Smith outperformed McCoy each time, the only exception being Baltimore.
I watched a bunch of McCoy games. Browns have a much lesser team around him than Niners around Alex. It’s a done argument, and I realize not many people will clamor over McCoy, cause who the hell is he…? No biggie, but I’d they release him when they get RGIII some other team will pick up a nice QB
PBL, time will tell right?
@PBL
We all know that this is just an exercise in rhetorical hocus-pocus, because we’ll never be able to duplicate what Alex had for a Oline and WR’s for all of the other QB’s to try to succeed in the league in his early seasons. And Jordan and Bay who say “it’s only one year” consider those bad years…I believe that he averaged 6 wins per year in his previous 4 1/2 years. Two years ago, 7-9 won the division. Those who are dead set on denigrating him for those ‘bad’ years, are still denigrating him after a 14 win season. I won’t call anyone stupid, but I will say that the discussion IS. Ninermd wouldn’t accept a 16-0 season if the QB isn’t brilliant…I can[‘t comment on that either. GO NINERS!!
@OR
Can we at least agree that Sing was the worst HC ever shat into professional sports?
He’s in the discussion, at least. He had some assitants who were high school level coaches. That says a lot about how his fellow coaches saw him.
@Pork
If you like McCoy that much, if you were Cleveland GM, would you trade up forRG3? Real pricey; I heard two #1s + a #3 + a #5. I think I would, but then I’d keep McCoy at least through 2012.
“I’d do that deal. You do that deal, Utivich? I do that deal!”
–
RGIII looks like the best QB in the draft to me (yes, I know, I’m now a target for that too). Do I take him at #2 if I’m the Browns, at such high cost? Yes, without hesitation. The Harrison hit on McCoy was a monstrosity and may have altered his career. Maybe (see Trent Edwards concussion). I think I keep McCoy as my backup to RGIII in that scenario.
The day can’t come sooner when the Niners get back the reputation and have a PRO-Bowl and possible Hall of Fame QB. It is obvious it is not in Smith, and maybe, juyst maybe Kaep has the intangible’s and will develop his skills that Alex does not have.
Jerel Worthy, DT, Michigan State – Worthy is a classic “bowling ball of butcher knives” who will consistently disrupt plays against the run and pass. Could this be the “Aldon Smith” head scratcher pick in the 1st Round?
Bowling ball of butcher knives? $$$$$$
I’m still thinking of my post yesterday…and Harbaughs not in any news for signing Brett Favre or wacky trades or lost draft picks. No coachs fighting each other or pay offs to hitmen on defense.
Just sensible moves. No controversys.
Amazing.
I’m not sure if it’s amazing [it's what many 49er fans were hoping for / expecting; although, maybe not so quickly], but it certainly is a welcome change.
What IS amazing, is you staying on topic, Stan. Thanks for that.
Its amazing how much we argue about Alex Smith when in reality we have a better QB situation than damn near half the league
Bored. Know that Alex is Arrow Up. Can’t wait to see what the Kid is Kaepable of.
Adam 707,
Agreed.
This a list of teams that had worse QB play that the 49ers last year [IMO]:
Seattle
Arizona
St. Louis
Oakland
Denver
KC
Minnesota
Chicago
Cleveland
Baltimore
Atlanta
Tampa
Indy
Jacksonville
Tennessee
Washington
Buffalo
NYJ
Miami
That’s 19 out of 32 teams.
That puts Smith twelfth on the list of NFL QB’s. That seems about right to me [tenth to fifteenth]. Assuming that Smith continues to raise his game, the WR’s get upgraded and the O line continues to improve, Smith might easily crack the top ten next year.
Ex,
You would take Smith over;
1.Flacco
2. Freeman
3.Cutler
4. Hasselback
5. Ryan
6. Bradford
C’mon man. Alex Smith is not better than any of these QB’s. This list actually puts Smith in the bottom 3rd of NFL Qb’s. Were talking about career, not last year. 1 year does not make a career. You saw Smiths beast last year. When it falls off this year, it’s not gonna be pretty in here.
*IF it falls off this year.
I personally would take Smith over Cutler, Flacco, Hasselbeck, and Ryan.
Cutler has a big arm capable of making all throws but turns over the ball way too much. Has little to no mobility. Since he has been in Chi he has only averaged 225 yards per game, which still wouldn’t quite meet your standards. Plus never had a season with a QB rating of 90. Not to mention he lacks physical and mental toughness. According to some Alex may lack the mental but not the physical.
Flacco i consider a push really. I view him and Smith essentially equal. Flacco has a stronger arm and Smith is more athletic. Since Smith has been a Niner Qb the last 7 years yea I’d stick with Smith over Flacco.
Hasselbeck started off last year with a MVP like season then completely fell off. Smith had a better YPA (A stat you and bay love to throw out and claim alex is at the bottom) Hasselbeck had one more TD and 9 more Int’s. Plus Hasselbeck will be turning 37 at the beginning of the season. I think Locker would have been a better argument in comparison to Smith.
Matt Ryan, arguably the most overrated QB in all of football. His nickname is Matty Ice but the guy is a choke artist in the playoffs. In three playoff appearances he is 70/110 for 584 yards 3 TDs 4 Int’s. Smith in two playoff games is 36/68 495 yards 6 total TD’s and 0 INt’s. So yea I’d take Ryan in the regular season, but he is the last QB i would want leading my team in the playoffs.
Jordan,
When you even ask about Hasselbeck, it makes my head hurt. He once was good, now, not so much.
Cutler is way too up and down. If you’re judging him by his best plays, I can understand him being on your list. The problem is, you have to live with his many bonehead plays, too. So, on balance, hell no!
Flacco is a statue and threw four or five INT’s in one game this year. He’s not terrible, but he’s not as good as Smith.
Ryan is a guy living off of the hype around his rookie year. Look into what he’s done since and you see a QB that is regressing, rather than improving. Not to mention the weapons he has at his disposal. Sorry, not very impressive.
If you asked me before last year, I would’ve loved it if the 49ers had Freeman as a QB. Then, 2011 happened. It could turn out to be a blip on his career curve [still think a bad situation can't derail a QB?], or it could be he’s coming unglued. I wouldn’t choose to take on the risk, but I wouldn’t hate it if he was the 49ers’ QB either.
Bradford is an interesting case. In his rookie year, he was pretty good, not great, pretty good. Pretty much everyone [me included] projected greatness. Then he regressed, significantly. Sophomore slump? Injuries? Bad situation [see how a change in OC's can screw with a QB?]? Probably. And he is probably still going to be very good to great.
Even so, I’d rather have Smith next year. In a vacuum, I’d rather have Bradford long term. But that’s in a vacuum. The 49ers have Kaepernick along with Smith. I’d rather have those two together than Bradford. I admit, it could prove to be colossally wrong, but that’s how I see it.
Adam707, You are proving my belief that linemen are often the brightest guys on a football team. Keep up the good takes.
That’s your problem in a nutshell Jordan. You overlook the problem areas of other teams QB’s while holding the QB of your team to a higher standard. I put up the numbers of Smiths last 3 seasons and they would stack up with all of the guys listed above, and would be improvement on most.
You can’t seem to get past this myopic view you have of Smith based on watching him the first few years of his career. Nobody is saying he’s elite, but he’s not the piece of trash you like to think he is either.
If you look at Smith after he overcame the shoulder injuries, you see a steady upward climb. He has improved every year statistically and this season, in the win column as well. Burn your memories of injured, deer in the headlights Alex and look at the guy who – starting with a phenomenal second half in Houston 3 years ago – has been improving steadily and was the QB of a 14 win team. He’s already done everything you said he couldn’t do Jordan. It’s your right to keep setting the bar higher, but it’s hypocritical.
Normally if a player answers all the challenges you put in front of him, you give him credit for it; not try to find any other area you can to criticize him on.
Are you serious. I am a 49ers fan and I realize Alex Smith is not that good. He is pedestrian at best, and they keep recycling this guy hoping they can salvage something out of him. They need to get someone who can deliver ad move the ball effectively instead of hoping that this guy can live up to his draft position.
if alex doesn’t sign before the start of free agency, i doubt it’s to “test the waters.” if anything, it’s to give the niners time to sign other free agents, and then negotiate a contract for him that works around these signings. alex has made a ton of money off the niners. i get the feeling he’s willing to work with the team to make other signings possible, rather than seeking the best possible dollars for himself.
Very possible.
Smith knows he’s coming back.
The 49ers know he’s coming back.
The NFL knows he’s coming back.
And, therefore, there’s no urgency. Wow, what a big surprise.
Kaep is Kaepable!
Smith is average.
@exg……..don’t mention it to ninermd…….he might have to change his diaper…….
PBL,
Kaep may be capable. I sure hope he is, but we don’t know yet. It will be interesting to see him in preseason. I expect a lot of improvement.
+1
Grant, Stop being butt hurt. Coaches coach. You write. Enough said.
People who say butt-hurt know intimately the pain in the butt…
..:)
That isn’t funny to any man over 40 PBL. Annual physical exams suck.
Looks like there’s still some Alex Smith angst out there. And… we got some new knuckleheads! Sweet.
OK, back to my long offseason vacation.
Adam, time to return with FA, draft, and OTAs around the corner!
@PBL
I’ll agree that Sing didn’t ‘lite it up’, and I ‘fess up… I wanted him to. After the first season, it was just too obvious that HC was a bridge too far…he was in over his head. No controversy there…nor disagreement….
I’m sure they’ve discussed a value range with Alex and that both sides have agreed to put the official deal together after the team works out other key contracts such as that of Carlos Rogers and possible a # 1 wide receiver. Alex will be the most agreeable of all their free agents in terms of how he allows the team to structure his and knows what Jim can do for his career and that Jim wants him under center, the rest is just semantics. I think that on the surface Grant was stretching here and that maybe just maybe the 49ers know there’s certainly an upgrade to the quarterback spot available in this free agency market, aka Brees/Manning. The real question is whether Alex is a legitimate starter outside of SF and would he take a backup role behind Patton Manning? Looking at the remainder of the available free agent quarterbacks I believe the Vince Young is the best available outside of the big two.
We need a ring now, so I suggest that if we’re going to roll the dice might as well be with Peyton Manning.. He won’t get hit as many times as he did in Indianapolis, cause our offensive line and our running game is amongst the most superior in the league. Would hate to have them sign Alex Smith and have him be less than Mediocare. He had 8 yrs to prove himself and well he didn’t. I can’t see how two good plays in New Orleans would justify a new contract.. Also we might be losing J.Morgan who, I consider a decent WR and Ted Gin. That leaves M.Crabtree, V.Davis, oh and the great giant K.Williams.
Bring in Manning with Reggie Wayne as a package like they both guarantee to work with a team that has a chance to win the big one and let’s WIN THE NEXT TWO SUPER BOWLS and Kirkpatrick our future QB would have an excellent teacher in P.Manning.
Grant just posts these type of things so 500 people comment and his blog racks up impressive numbers. They probably have a gentlemans deal in place and just want to sort out the other contracts first, so they can adjust Smith’s where necessary. That seems fairly obvious. You got me though, Grant. I’m one of your 500 suckers.
I would let Alex Smith go along with Crabtree, a lineman and a first round pick for RG-3
Think about it, really!
Don’t get me wrong 49ers fans, I like Alex Smith, but I really like RG-3 .
agree are dis-agree. I like to hear what the 49ers fans think.
49ers Fans Manning not your answer. If the Colts don’t see his value anymore how can you see it. Manning is the Past! RG-3 is the future
49ers lets get back to winning, Go after RG-3
For the Niners to move up to get RG-3, that would mean they would have to move up a lot of slots. Competing for teams who also want that same guy. The team you would likely have to trade to would be the Rams. A division rival.
So, who/how much do you offer?
P.S. This idea is preposterous. The Niners drafted CK last year and AS is coming off of what our savior JH said was a Pro-Bowl year and AS could easily play for another 8-10 years barring injury.