Greg Cosell has done some serious tweeting about the NFL draft over the last month.
Since many of you are not on twitter, for you convenience I’ve compiled all his recent tweets on offensive skill players.
Some people don’t take Cosell as the gospel, but he’s very interesting and he gets the discussion going.
To read him, click here.
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GC, thanks for posting. Interesting read from GCosell but I didn’t see anything regarding Fleener??!
6th tweet.
I agree with Cosell that Rueben Randle could be the steal of the draft. I also like Criner, and I’m surprised Criner isn’t getting more media attention – but that just spells value for someone. I wouldn’t draft Micheal Floyd in the second round. Some drink to deal with stress. If Floyd can’t handle the stress at the college level, he isn’t worth drafting because the pros ain’t any easier.
Alshon Jeffrey is getting lost in the mix. Mayock blasted Jeffrey for being fat and not working out at the combine, but Jeffrey then showed up to his pro day 20 pounds lighter and ran a 4.5. Someone’s getting a steal there. Jeffrey is a beast. Teams that get too caught up in Jeffrey’s combine numbers will be kicking themselves when they play the kid on Sunday. Jeffrey is exactly the kind of receiver the 49ers need. Go up and get it at the ball’s highest point.
Forget about guys like Blackmon, Floyd and even Kendal Wright for the 49ers. They simply won’t be there, or aren’t worth it. But guys like Jeffrey, Randle and Sanu might. Criner is a great plan B. But it’s not like Alex Smith is going to maximize any of these dudes. You draft a receiver high, though, to create chemistry with either JJ or Kaep.
Cody Fleener is Dallas Clark all over again. The mocks are undervaluing Fleener and the running back from Boise State, Doug Martin. I think both Martin and Fleener go top twenty in the draft. McShay and Kiper floated the idea of Fleener to the Broncos to go with Peyton. I say that would be a great fit, fun to watch – if Fleener’s still there.
Totally agree that not one of the top 3 or 4 receivers will be there when the Niners pick (honestly speaking, I would not take any one of them although they bring a lot to the table). Why is that? Because I believe that Fleener is more “instant” offense than any one of them simply because he can (just my opinion) do what each of them does and more – and he is a heck of a lot more versatile by far. I’m all for getting “bang for my buck” etc., etc. I hasten to add, my feelings/opinion ONLY apply because we’re talking Forty Niners and Harbaugh and Greg. If I was any other team wanting or needing a receiver, then I would look hard at Randle or Floyd. But this player (Fleener), this HC and OC and their history – and the presence of Davis and Walker. Fleener is a No Brainer (again, in my opinion. But wht do I know)
I agree with you 100%, get fleener, even if they have to give up a couple of draft picks.
You Grant, and your cronies, also known as the Alex Smith haters, really crack me up. Alex Smith is not going to maximize these dudes but JJ or Kaep are? Really?
Let me tell you something guys, AS is going to be the starter, and not because they are going to pay him $8mil this year, but because he is going to beat out everyone. Also, for those who think JJ is going to be the 2nd stringer, or even the starter, are dreaming. JJ could not even beat out Josh Freeman at Tampa Bay. Do you really think Josh Freeman is such a great quarterback that JJ had no choice but to be the 2nd stringer? JJ might have been good in college (albeit a division 2 program) but this is the pros. For those who keep saying that AS still has not shown anything to warrant him earning the starting spot, or even being on the 49ers, guess what, everyone has to show something. Has Josh Johnson shown anything in the pros that really makes anyone think he’ll be anygood? JJ has been given a chance, but in 4 years in the NFL he has shown squat.
I am pulling for AS because he has heart, and some talent, and lest not forget haters he led the 49ers to beat the Saints with 14 seconds left in a playoff game to reach the NFC Championship game. Has JJ or even Josh Freeman won a playoff game? No. And before you guys, including Grant, reply back with some AS hater logic, look up several of the current NFL quarterbacks who have much better stats than AS and see if any of them have won a playoff game – and it will probably be somewhere around zero.
Josh Johnson as the starter? Really? Probably won’t make it past the 3rd preseason game. You really think JJ is that much better than CK? Heck, JJ is not even better than Scott Tolzien.
Have a nice day, haters.
You AS haters keep on hating, cuz that is whay your best at, including you Grant. In terms of real football knowledge
Ben – is that you? LOL
Maybe we can put rec49er and EightySixEleven in a side chat room and let them battle it out where we don’t have to wade through their respective rants.
Post as yourself, RS.
This kid is nuts! lol Alex Smith makes the playoffs in year 7, josh freeman has been the starter for 2 years, alex has had quite a bit more time and a far weaker division to make the playoffs. Josh Freeman is just far more talented than alex in everyway no comparison. LOL Sounds like you are hating on Colin Kaepernick and just about every niner but alex. What are you a colin hater? I love all these white goobers using the term hater it’s hilarious.
Hey PigSkin:
I am not a CK hater, as I hope the best player earns to be the starting qb. But before I continue, please share in what way is Josh Freeman is so much better than AS? Tampa Bay regressed last year, and if you go back and watch tape a lot of it had to do with Josh Freeman’s play, but do elaborate on how much better he is than AS. Please elaborate on how there is no comparison between Josh Freeman and AS.
One other PigSkin: Alex making the playoffs in year 7? Yeah, so what! They made it because the niners finally had a good coach. You really think the niners had good coaching with Nolan and Singletary, and it was all AS fault that they did not make the playoffs?
You noobs who think Josh Johnson is going to come in here and light it up don’t get it. Tampa Bay had the most cap room this year, and they could have easily re-signed JJ. Why did Tampa Bay not even offer JJ a contract to come and compete against Josh Freeman, since the great Josh Freeman regressed last year and showed what a great qb he is? JJ is wide receiver trying to play qb, and you AS haters think he is the answer.
I am a AS backer, but if CK comes in and earns the starting qb position, then go niners!
Hey Grant: when JJ gets released in training camp and heads to the arena league, are you going to cover his greatness?
Wh
Sorry for the typo. I think we have been over this. It’s really time for the draft.
“You Grant, and your cronies, also known as the Alex Smith haters”
Grant is cronies with all of the NFL front offices? That’s good work for such a young reporter.
@rec49er, Grant is the clone of 23jordan..
Rec49er,
You don’t have a damn clue about football or Josh Johnson. Johnson didn’t want to sign with Tampa because he wasn’t going to be given a chance to compete for a starting job. If you read anything Josh Johnson be fore you started running your mouth about him, you’d know that already.
As for Alex Smith starting. He will have to earn this job for a change.
Would you like to bet Josh Johnson makes this team loudmouth?? Let’s say $500. We could send the money to grant from our Paypal accounts. I’ll wait for your reply loudmouth!
@ Rec49er,
Alex Smith has been ranked anywhere between 21 to 25 as the best starting QB in the NFL. With that wonderful stat, and not one team really interested in him except the Niners, I would say that Josh Johnson has a good chance of starting next season especially by week six. This will be AS last year as a Niner, that 3 year deal he got is really one year at a time. Have a nice day Alex Smith lover, the kool aid is ice cold and maybe you can sit on your man crush lap. Don’t get so excited big boy.
Same thing was said last year and the year before that and the year before that. Instead of hating Neal, why not try having faith for once?
Thanks Neal. We couldn’t have gotten to sleep tonight without that commentary.
Cheers and good thoughts back at you!
MidWest and Hoffer,
Do you really think I give a pimple on a pig’s ass if you don’t agree with me on your man love of Alex Smith. Talking about snooze, and you are both extremley ignorant if we don’t agree with me that Alex Smith will always be Alex Smith. The last girl at the dance that nobody wants to dance with.
@Jordolicious:
“Would you like to bet Josh Johnson makes this team loudmouth?? Let’s say $500.”
Man you just keep digging that hole deeper and deeper. What’s the deal with you and bad bets? :P
@Neal:
“Alex Smith has been ranked anywhere between 21 to 25 as the best starting QB in the NFL.”
Yeah… by the guy who does the fantasy football column.
Come on. You people are just KILLING it today. I almost spit up my coffee this morning reading this BS.
Excellent entertainment. :)
@ Adam,
ESPN column with Trent Dilfer. has Alex Smith at number # 19, you feel better.
@Neal:
What’s the point of your selective use of QB rankings?
- Football Outsiders has Smith ranked #13 in DYAR
- Cold Hard football Facts has Smith rated #10 in Real QB Rating and #8 in Offensive passer rating
- Smith ranked #9 in the NFL’s offical QB rating system
You feel better?
According to you Neal, the 49ers already have the top pick in next year’s draft just because Smith might be the QB. That’s some real faith in your team you have there. Not!!!
To the Smithers fan’s,
Thank your lucky star’s that the Niners have a great defense and special teams inspite of AS weaknessess. Also Claude, give me a break if AS was ranked in the top 8 of Football, a, if that was the case the rest of the NFL loooks at him as a bottom dweller
That same defense is thankful that Smith saved them in the game against the Saints. Also Neal, hardly anybody wanted Brees when he hit free agency the first time. You can’t judge a player’s capability by other the other NFL teams’ interest in him.
@Neal
You do realize that AS saved the great defense in the NO game, right? And in the Giant game, that great Special teams stank it up giving up 2 Turnovers.
So, the two best units of the team failed in critical times in the playoffs. Yet AS who scored 6 TD’s and 0 Turnovers is blamed.
Can’t accept the facts. I have come to know that about you Neal. The earth is flat in your world. AS is the poster child for why your life sucks, blah. blah, blah.
@Neal:
Why am I not surprised that you only accept subjective ratings that agree with your subjective assessment? Whatever you do, don’t let facts get in the way of your predetermined conclusions.
DS,
The Niners would not of been playing the Saints if it was not for the defense and special teams in the regular season and especially David Acres, Alex Smith best friend.
Claude, this is a blog, every word every person says on here is subjective.
@Neal:
That doesn’t mean you should be allergic to facts. Or addicted to facile arguments and shallow thinking.
@Neal
The defense would not be so good if they were put in bad situations if AS turned the ball over a lot more as “gunslingers” often do.
The team that has the most TO’s taken away loses the game. Regardless of any other stat, that is the one that matters.
Don’t turn the ball over, get turnovers, you will win a lot of games. 3 of the top 4 seeded teams this year were 1, 2, 3, 4 in TO margin Neal. That means something. And the 4th still made the playoffs.
Defense is not as good without AS as the QB Neal. Fact is fact.
Adam,
Continue to sit on the sidelines and run your mouth. I directed the bet at him. I see you’re smart enough not to accept the best as week. Don’t worry about me son. I’m doing just fine and will be all year long. I appreciate your concern but it’s not necessary.
MidWest, “hardly anybody wanted Brees when he hit free agency the first time”
Not trying to back anyone’s argument, but you do realize that the reason there wasn’t much interest in Brees was because he had just torn up his throwing shoulder at the end of the previous season in San Diego and many doubted if he could ever play again?
Jack,
What I’m trying to show with my reference to Brees is that almost every team thought he was a risk not worth taking a chance on. With Smith, no other team was willing to take a chance on him because he would’ve had to learn yet another offensive scheme. Although both the situations and circumstances were different, the similarity is those both QBs were labeled as a high risk. I feel like the teams that passed on Smith will feel like those who didn’t want to take a chance on Brees back then.
To sum it up, basically I get the same underdog feeling from Smith that I did from Brees back then. And like Brees, I think Smith finally has the right coach and system for his skill set.
Well, PFT’s latest Mock 2.0 just came out and they have the Steelers taking Fleener. They have us taking Konz from Wisconsin.
Who do they show the Ravens taking?
@Jack:
Rueben Randle.
Grain of salt with that mock. Bucs reaching for Brockers at 5? Silva lost me after that.
Yeah that mock should be mocked!!! That guy is out of his flipping mind… SEA pick sucks and Kuechly is not lasting until pick #32! I like Konz, but clearly the Packers and Ravens have intrest in him as well. Love the pick if Fleener is off the board.
Ya that mock is a lot different than most I’ve seen. I don’t like it!
I’d love to see Konz but I can’t see him falling past New Orleans and Baltimore. Both teams have old centers and holes in the interior of their lines.
Everyone keeps comparing him to Nick Mangold which is not a bad thing at all.
Bah – brain spasm. Forgot New Orleans has no 1st (or 2nd) round pick this year.
There’s gonna be some studs that come out of the second round in this year’s draft. Boise State DE Billy Winn is Dana Stubblefield all over again. Huge legs, not much upper body strength, but enough to be effective. Might be a third rounder, but I like him in the second.
Bobb McKitrick mentored Mike Solari. Solari went out last year and drafted Daniel Kilgore in the late rounds. Kilgore had the best “cone drill” exercises at the draft last year. Who had the best “cone drill” exercises this year? OT, projected as a OG at the pro level, Amini Silatolu. He could be Mike Solari’s Jesse Sapolu. Projected second rounder; however, I’m gun shy because of our last second round guard. Ouch. Talk about stinky. WCO guards need to be able to pull and trap. Mike Iupati was a Singletary mistake.
Another great second round find – Kirk Cousins. I’d love to see Elway go Fleener in the first, then Cousins in the second behind Manning for a few years. Talk about rags to riches. Tebow, Orton and Quinn to Manning and Cousins? That’s how you get rid of your quarterback quagmire. Too bad Harbaugh appears stuck on stupid with Alex Smith.
Good read. The WRs, RBs, and OL can be acquired in rounds 3 -5 since it is a quantity year for those positions. I’m not so sure they can afford a luxury pick (CF) this year. They could easily go with a DL or DB with the 30th pick. They’ll want to keep that defense elite and will draft accordingly.
How is Iupati a mistake?
Agreed. Hes “good” working on “great”
Dashon Goldson’s contract negotiations could effect how the 49ers draft in a few weeks. Who knows if Goldson is negotiating a long term deal right now or not? Last I read, Goldson had fired his agent in favor of someone the 49ers like to work with. Smart move by Goldson, but it still may not matter if the 49er decide it’s cheaper to pay Goldson a one year deal under the franchise tag, then draft someone high behind him and develop the rookie safety for 2013. Personally, I think Goldson is the next Ed Reed. I think Goldson is that good. I would lock him up to a five year deal for $35 million, not the 25 that was reportedly offered last year. But if the 49er don’t sign Goldson, and they draft a safety high, I look for Goldson to holdout. I would. It’s one thing to be a quarterback playing under a one year deal with all the rule changes protecting you – it’s another thing entirely for a safety who gets paid to lay his shoulder to play under a one year deal. DeJax could duff it as a receiver, Goldson can’t as a safety. If the 49ers draft a safety high this year, Goldson could be gone – and his smartest move would be to hold the 49ers’ playoff hopes for ransom with a holdout. It’s not like the 49ers are going to be able to A.) trade for a safety and get value with the league knowing Goldson was holding out B.) Have the cap room to sign a big safety free agent, or C.) can train up a rookie to play at a high enough level to help the 49ers compete for Super Bowls in 2012- particularly drafting in the bottom of the first round. So, if the 49ers draft a safety high, Goldson could have a lot of leverage holding out. And if I was Goldson, particularly the way I was treated last off season, I wouldn’t be looking to do the 49ers any favors.
We’re not going to overpay for a FS, not even Goldson. I like him too, but he’s not THAT good. Eric Weddle turned out to be a good deal for the Chargers, but he’s better coverage wise. Goldson’s still got some holes in his game. There aren’t a lot of safeties out there, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we drafted one.
Players who are franchised gain no leverage by holding out.
Goldson would this year.
With Randle having visited and Floyd on the way, seems safe to say we’re interested in a wideout.
Looks like Wright, Hill and Jenkins will have a visit too, according to Barrows.
With Fleener’s size and speed, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him used in that position too.
Sweet. Glad the org is taking wideout seriously.
Trade up? Maybe OL isn’t as high on their list as some other positions?! On May 1st if they added DL, WR, RB and DB/S to the roster, it would be a good draft.
I think you’re right on the money. If Kilgore can fill Snyder’s spot and we get someone moving up for Rachal’s we’d be in good shape.
Wonder if they’d wait for training camp cuts to see what’s what for more O-line help? I suppose they’ll have to see what presents itself in the draft.
Always fun to see who we get. Can’t wait :)
Floyd and Randle, to me, look like more of a sure thing.
Dunno… Interesting though. Would be nice for Smith to have another “good hands guy” on the team.
Thanks to whoever posted that the Niners vs. Lions replay was on yesterday, I got to catch that again. We’d have been blowing that game out with some better hands. Walker’s bobble in the end zone was on him, Crabs coming down out of bounds was just a stroke of bad luck. Smith had one big overthrow. Several missed opportunities in that one.
Crabs has good hands but isn’t going to bust anything open.
Adam, I’m thinking if they trade up it would be for a DL or DB/S. Regarding WR, they need a guy that can get separation – if not fast then quick similar to KWrights traits. MC isn’t fast and seldom gets separation although with MM, he may be more effective. Not sure if Randle gets the separation but Floyd will most like be gone in the top 20 and to move up would be costly.
My main concern with Randle is that he was held mostly in check by top CBs. But by all reports he’s very dedicated to his craft, so it may be something he can work on and getter better at. I agree with Hofer, if we come away with a DL, WR, RB and DB/S that’s a good draft. I’d also like to see developmental OLB and OG/OC.
The thing I want to know about Barrows’ site is why does DEBLOVES49ERS post over there and not over here? :P
she did,but her picture prompted some untoward comments as i recall.
She did? I don’t remember that.
Been quite awhile maybe when M M ran the show!
I agree, despite the addition of Moss and Manningham (who are huge upgrades over Edwards and Morgan, btw), the 49ers still need to go WR in the first round. Guard in the first round would be a huge mistake. Safety in the first round would only cause Goldson to holdout. Wide receiver is the move. But, I also like what Harbaalke has done – with the addition of Moss and Manningham, if all the receivers are gone they liked, the 49ers aren’t in a desperate position. That’s a well run front office – finally.
If Fleener or DeCastro could be reunited with the Harbs .. I would consider it to be a successful draft.. no matter what happens in the later rounds ..
but.. then again… is it too much to hope for ?
I’m hoping Fleener will be there at #30. If the 49ers draft Fleener, great. If the 49ers skip over Fleener, that’s fine too. It means Harbaugh/Baalke feel they have someone even better.
My hunch… the 49ers would be thrilled to get Stephen Hill, but pretty dang pleased to wind up with Fleener. Fleener’s polish, consistency and experience in the Harbaugh/Roman offense would make him the “win now” option. Hill would be the gamble with big potential payoff later.
I want a freakin’ leaper. I want a guy who out-jumps defenders. When the ball is sailing on Alex every other drive, bring him in. He’ll be money. Come to think of it, we all need a midget receiver in the 7th round for when Alex is aiming at shoelaces. I’m thinkin’ Baalke should call Howard Stern.
Manningham, though not tall, is a great red zone leaper.
Fleener would help greatly in the “above the pads” passing offense.
We all know what Moss can do, but we all know what Moss sometimes does.
LOL re the shoelaces. I used to call running to the right and flinging the ball at the feet of his WRs “Alex Smith’s signature play.” It was almost like he called in the huddle “Sprint Right, Chuck Feet, On Two.” Last season Smith improved a in that regard. The play calling improved too.
Stern is 6’5 hrdly a midget
I think it is interesting that the 49ers are taking a look at Andre Hardy as a potential TE addition. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but perhaps the 49ers feel they need an additional athletic pass catching TE? Doing due diligence in case Fleener isn’t there at #30?
Maybe. And don’t forget that Harbaugh usually stockpiles at the TE position.
Maybe they want people to think they’re interested!
Okay, I’m asking out of pure ignorance because I’m not familiar with Fleener and I didn’t watch a lot of Stanford games: Why Fleener with the 49ers first round pick? I get that Harbaugh likes tight ends but we do have an elite TE corps already. With needs at other positions, why crowd out Davis and Walker with more hands in the first round? Did Harbaugh’s system at Stanford prioritize TE’s?
Walker is a free agent after this upcoming season and will probably want to be the top dog on another team instead of second banana on the 49ers.
Makes sense. I suppose that if that level of talent is available, now is a decent time to grab it. Davis may be in his prime but I keep forgetting he’s 28, not 22.
Did Harbaugh’s system at Stanford prioritize TE’s?
Yes. He often used three at a time.
Cosell “WR Hill difficult eval. Ran few routes at GT. Straight line WR who didn’t play as fast on film as timed Combine 40…”
Agree with “difficult eval”, strongly disagree “with didn’t play as fast on film.”
Hill shows not just good speed, but great speed. His long stride is deceptive. He does not look like his legs are churning too fast, but he easily pulls away from DBs. He has sneaky speed. Real speed. (The QB constantly under threw him too.)
True, his offense scheme at GT was plodding. No so may passes thrown his way, so there is not alot of youtube footage. He is raw and will need to work on crisper routes. Yes, “hard to eval” and would be a bit of a gamble.
“qbs constantly under threw him?” How’s his wheel route? LMAO. I’m all for a blazer (if there’s a dress code). But we already have fast. Ted Ginn can outrun anyone. We need a guy who can run…. and then jump while running…. athleticism. We need a guy who can catch the ball in the air…. up high. Vernon? No. Ginn? No. Even Manningham… No. Crabtree…. Kinda, but not totally. That said, though, about Crabtree, I bet he comes to camp motivated. Either way, I want a leaper. Tall? Great. But get up, boy, get up.
and who really knows what we have in Randy Moss…
EightySixEleven Who would you draft?
I’m no expert. I like what I see in Hill and Fleener, who both jump for the ball.
Hill leaps and makes great sky catches. (at least in his youtube highlights)
I have no idea about his wheel routes. Not much film on the guy. He played in a conservative offense.
Maybe Ginn would catch the ball better if the passes were thrown like wobbly punts.
EightySixEleven,
I like your post and agree with you. That’s funny cause this is what I wrote yesterday about Kleener and I didn’t see what Kiper wrote about him and the possibility of the Broncos taking him. Yesterday’s post when I replied about how the Niners might take Fleener with their 1st round pick at the 30 spot-
As much as I’d love for Fleener to be there when the Niners pick at number 30, I highly doubt he’ll last long. The TE position is ever increasing in importance in the NFL and someone as talented as he is almost sure to go higher than 30. I think the Niners will have to move up if we want to pick him, and given that there won’t be enough spots on the roster to keep all 7 of the picks they have in this year’s draft I don’t think it would be a bad idea to move up by packaging their 1st, 4th and 6th or 7th pick to leapfrog the 7,8 spots they’ll need to in order to pick him. If he gets past the Bears at 19 then I’d think the Broncos at 25 or even the Texans at 26 would be thinking long and hard to take him. It makes too much sense not to give Manning the big TE with good hands that he so much likes to throw to. So maybe we package some picks and trade with the Browns and get their 22nd pick to take him. Fleener is the next best receiving option after Blackmon and Floyd are off the board. Since there’s no way we’ll have a chance at landing one of the two sure fire wideouts, we might as well try and nab the best TE available in this year’s draft. Besides being a very good blocker and fast receiver, Fleener will be a true force in the redzone where we need the most help. He scored 10 TDs last year in the redzone for Stanford so he’ll be the option Smith desperately needs so that we score more TDs and less field goals this year. So if he gets into the 20s and we don’t have to trade the farm to move up and select him, I’d say do what we can to pick him. Even if some may think that by moving up to take him would be over paying for someone who may have fallen to you without having to trade up. Why take that chance if it means only giving up a a middle and late round picks to do so
Carmelo,
I honestly think that Josh Johnson will take over as the starting qb this year, so I don’t think you draft a guy for Alex Smith. I don’t think that’s your approach. I do know that Harbaugh coveted a taller receiver, and got it in Randy Moss. That’s because height and leaping ability gets it done in the redzone, and on third down, where the 49ers struggled last year. But it’s doubtful that Randy will be too effective for 17 weeks consistently, then play big in the playoffs. Legs are a valued commodity in the NFL and Harbaugh will have to give Randy a lot of time off. To me, that means the 49ers should already be looking for a tall, leaper in this year’s draft to eventually replace Moss. I don’t want short or fast. I want tall, with the ability to catch the ball with his hands at the ball’s highest point.
i honestly feel that josh johnson will beat sopaaga out for starting nose tackle
He’s do fine just to make the team and compete with CK as the 1st backup. Once he earns that role, then talk about him replacing the starting QB.
*He’ll*
The Pittsburgh papers are speculating that the Steelers might take Fleener as well. Apparently Heath Miller’s declining production the last two years is a concern for the team.
Brodie –
I’d draft Alshon Jeffrey over Hill. I think there’s a chance that Alshon killed his value by showing up to the draft 20 pounds overweight and not working out. I think it killed his stock, and that means value for someone. I also love Rueben Randle, but I think he goes to the Texans ahead of us. You could be right about Hill, though. Hill could be a stud, and I’d be all for it if Baalke liked him. I trust Baalke. Now if Scot McCloughan drafted Hill, I’d be skeptical.
@ 8611:
Why do you keep saying that Jeffery showed up to the combine 20 pounds overweight? It’s not true. He weighed 216 pounds at the combine, which is 14 pounds less than his playing weight at South Carolina last season.
Alshon Jeffrey is a between the numbers receiver. I doubt he’ll win many isloation routes in the NFL with his lack of speed. If that’s the WR we want, Sanu is way better – faster, stronger hands, better athlete, etc.
Agree – Sanu looks a much better prospect that Jeffrey
Apologies for being a bit off topic, but I just heard Peyton lost his suspension appeal. But what about the Saints hit plan against 49er players?
The league did not know about the latest incident Williams until after the Bounty Gate investigation. The 49ers should insist the incident be treated as a separate offense. A forfeiture of a draft pick to the 49ers is in order.
And Peyton should never coach in the NFL again.
@Brodie:
The 49ers should insist the incident be treated as a separate offense.
I disagree. Doing so would only serve to make the team look weak and whiny.
A forfeiture of a draft pick to the 49ers is in order.
That is never going to happen. And why should it? The 49ers have no greater claim to a forfeited draft pick than do the Vikings or any other team that played New Orleans the past 3+ years.
The release of the Williams’ audio served its purpose. It muted the criticism that Goodell’s punishments were too severe.
Crap, I screwed up the html. Sorry.
I agree with you. The punishment fits the crime. Payton looked the other way, during a period in the NFL where the commissioner was trying to make the game more safe. Payton should lose a year, learn a lesson, and come back more involved with the ethics of his team. Gregg Williams is just insane. Period. Goodbye, good riddance. May the rest of Bountygate just go away…
Look at the comparison between Hill and Jeffrey this way. If you’re on the five yard line, who do you want lined up wide? Jeffrey or Hill? Jeffrey would demand a double team against most cornerbacks in his rookie year. I’m not so certain Hill would do the same. Granted, down the road, Hill could help the 49ers out more between the 20s, but in the redzone, and on third down, Jeffrey is the better option, I believe.
I dont think a rookie we draft at our spot is going to be demanding double team. Over Moss and VD?
8611,
I disagree you about JJ taking over for Smith, or
at least that it’s Harbaugh’s plan. Of course if Smith plays bad then, yeah, Harbaugh has another option. But I think Fleener is that perfect type of RedZone guy and he’s actually already proven it by scoring 10 TDs last year in the redzone for Stanford. With his height 6’6″ and his ability to use his big 245lb+ frame to separate hisself from defenders, he’s a the perfect weapon for scoring close to the goal line. He reminds me allot of Gronkowski. I watched every Stanford for the last two years and I’ve seen him develop into a force thats all but impossible to stop. I really hope the Niners find a way of drafting him though it probably means having to trade up a bit to so. As long as they don’t have to trade too much, he’d be worth it.
Carmelo,
Josh Johnson is better than people realize, and there will be a quarterback controversy in SF in 2012. You’ll see. Hell, Alex Smith couldn’t even beat out Troy Smith, and you want to pit Alex against Josh with all of Josh’s intangibles and his strong connection to Harbaugh?
Regarding Fleener, nobody is disputing his talent, I just don’t think he’s there at 30, so why waste your time drooling over him?
When did he not beat out Troy Smith? If you’re speaking of that must win Rams game last year, that was just a boneheaded decision by our boneheaded coach! Who, by the way was fired right after that boneheaded decision!!
The same boneheaded coach who replaced Shaun Hill with Smith.
There was more invested in Smith and he was still an unknown. Hill just replaced Dilfer thru an injury and basically remained in SF because of QB injuries. If Hill is so good, why is he not starting anywhere?
EightySixEleven,
Your statement makes me laughed ! In factuality where’s Troy Smith and Nate Davis who are suppose tobe better than a. Smith? And now you’re saying that JJ is going to unseat alex Smith??? You better lay off that stuff you’re smoking ! lol
Hey Manila,
I don’t know what they smoke on your island, but it’s gotta be strong. Whether it’s JJ or CK, or special K, understand that it won’t be hard to unseat the QB with the lowest production in the entire league.
And before you go and put your island knowledge up against me, ownership and front office agree with me. That is why he only has $9 million guaranteed and they gave themselves an out after every year. It is also why they had discussions with Hasselbeck last year and Manning this year. If you want to get personal go ahead, but if you want to stick to FACTS, I just laid them out for you kid…
EightySixEleven,
Where did you get the idea, that theres going tobe a QB controversy? I don’t see it happening or 75 % of the fan base including harbaugh himself. Because harbaugh is a football minded HC and alot smarter than Nolan or Singletary who don’t have no clues how tobe a head coach in the NFL.
They brought in JJ just in case anything happen in the regular season with A. Smith and if CK can’t provide the offense needed, harbaugh would still have plan C which is JJ..Nothing else what so ever, to disrupt the chemistry already thats in place, i doubt harbaugh would even consider making any changes in his approach comes 2012….
@Bay,
Dude ! no disrespect to you. Thats your opinion, maybe to the other fans thats can knows what happen last season will tell you where were the niners at… No need to explain to you, where the niners where at last season, with one mistake by the special team cost them going to the SB.. And kido i been a niner fan since the Brodie, washington, tommy hart era..
Bay,
I don’t want to intervene with your discussion with manila. After reading your comments, I can’t help making a comment to you with your racists statement. You are out of line making racist remark..The guy was just saying his opinion, you should respect others opinion. You sound like an intelligent individual. You should be more carefull in making unintelligent racist remarks..
@ 49erman,
uh what racist comment are you talking about?
49erman,
This guy bay and the rest of the smith haters, just loved to criticize other’s opinion siding with A. smith.
Bay mentioning of the ethnic origin or culture of another individual, the way he said it, ( before you put your Island knowledge against me ) means his more superior or dominant to the other and he thinks its not being racists ..this guy is a jerk ..
Actually the “jerk” is Barry Zito. He has single handedly hurt my Giants more than any other player in the last 35 years that I can remember watching bay area baseball.
Funny you come to Smith’s defense. He and Zito have a lot in common kid…
How did you come to that conclusion Bay? Never mind. I don’t want to have my head hurt even worse from trying to comprehend your logic.
@49erman
I don’t read bay’s posts in large part because he threw a nice slew of racist remarks in my direction.
He had done it before he did it to me. He did it to me. He has done it since. And will continue to do so until Grant bans him.
Hater is appropriate. Has nothing to do with AS. Has 100% to do with his views.
…41 responses and nobody, even the site blogger didn’t catch this ……..”for you convenience”……..
Grant guess this proves my point that English is overrated…….
The sad part is the post is just 3 bullet points, you will think quality would be easily applied……
We noticed …. but we’re not anal like you to point it out …
Re-read your post and find the irony…
“The sad part is the post is just 3 bullet points, you will think quality would be easily applied……”
Lol. You would think that if you were going to act like a quality control expert you WOULD read your own comments before posting them.
HAHA!! Geez onesie?! You’re still traumatized after Grant ribbed you for your grammar skills (or lack there of), lol!! Let it go, brutha man!! Also ….
“… you will think quality would be easily applied……”
What the hell is that supposed to mean?!?!?
Cosell on Cal’s Marvin Jones:
“Jones widest catching radius of any WR I evaluated”
This is exactly whta you need with an inaccurate QB like Alex Smith. If Jones falls to the 3rd round, I think we should take him.
…an inaccurate QB like Alex Smith …
It’s almost like you believe that if you say it enough times, it will become the truth.
@Claude
What makes you think Alex is accurate?
60% is accurate more than half the time. :P
What is the percentage when you take away the check downs?
Check downs are a designed part of the game.
It would be better without the wild throws and without all the drops.
@NickRow:
We can start with this:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2011/passing.htm
Smith ranked 11th in the league last year in terms of completion percentage at 61.3% I know the chart says he ranked 12th behind Matt Ryan (also at 61.3%), but if you do the math, his percentage is actually higher than Ryan’s.
We can quibble over how accurate the QB with the 11th highest completion percentage is, but Smith’s ranking certainly tends to disprove the assertion that he is “inaccurate.”
@Claude
I knew you’d come back with comp%, but that stat is deceiving. One needs to consider yards per attempt, yards per catch, net yards gained per attempt, etc. to get a clear picture of Smith’s accuracy. If he’s checking down frequently, then his % goes up while yardage gained goes down. Here are the numbers, they speak for themselves:
Yards/attempt = 7.1 (17th)
Yards/catch = 11.5 (24th)
Net yards gained/pass attempt = 5.9 (21st)
TD% = 3.8 (22nd)
Longest Pass = 56 (36th)
…….and, cue the crickets.
Nick,
How do those stats reflect Smith’s “inaccuracy”?
@exgolfer
His net yards gained per pass attempt is only 5.9 – bottom half of the league (21st). That means, he’s throwing shorter passes and still only completing 61% of them. Check downs skew his accurary numbers up.
I’m not trying to knock the guy. Alex is who we thought he was. The original point was that a WR with a wide catching radius is good for both Alex and the team.
NickRow, Funny. I thought the exact same thing when I read that…
@NickRow:
And how does any of that support your assertion that Smith is “inaccurate”?
Bill Walsh once said of the WCO. If you have a run play gain 4-5 yards its considered a successful play. Why cant a pass play that nets the same yards be successful too?
Just paraphrasing but you get the point. Thats the scheme, ya just hope to get the YAC!
Dunt dunt dun duuun!!!! And Claude has the tights and cape on! Rushing to defend any villain that speaks truth and justice about Alex smith. Able to copy and paste any sentence or paragraph with a single hand. Fighting evil truth from the league of realists. With his team of Smithers. He fights and defends smiths honor with one year stats and a playoff win. Ready to face any truth and turn it into his own….. The saga continues.
Claude I’m sure smith is really proud to have you in his corner. And you wonder why I said smith is the perfect player in your eyes. Wow!
@ninermd:
You are drinking and posting again. Read my comments again (perhaps you should sober up first) and show me where I said Smith was perfect or anything close to perfect.
Nick,
You are absolutely correct. His percentage is skewed by the fact that he regularly throws short of the marker which is what the defense is giving him. This is also why his 3rd down conversions are league worst. No matter what side you are on, you cannot deny this.
@Bay, Yet…..they will….
@bay:
This is also why his 3rd down conversions are league worst.
First, they aren’t the worst, they are among the worst.
Second, there unlikely is a single reason why the team’s third down conversion percentage is among the league worst. The game, like life, is more complicated than you make it out to be. But, if you are going to insist that we identify a single unifying reason for the team’s poor performance on third downs, perhaps you should consider the offensive line.
I have yet to find comparable numbers for the entire 2011 season, but this set of numbers for the first 14 games is somewhat instructive:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/50693/nfc-west-third-down-success-rates-by-qb
Focusing just on Alex Smith’s 3rd down pass attempts, the team converted 43/112 of those attempts for a success rate of 38.4%. That’s not great by any stretch of the imagination, but it is noticeably better than the misleading 28.1% number thrown out by Grant. By the way, it also hits Grant’s definition of an average conversion percentage.
One thing that did not help the 49ers on third downs was the lack of pass protection. Alex Smith was sacked 18 times on the 140 pass plays called on third down, or 12.9% of the time he dropped back. That’s a high percentage. Moreover, if you accept bay’s hypothesis that Smith too quickly throws the checkdown pass, then you must conclude that he was getting zero time to throw on those plays.
Smith also was forced to scramble 10 times on third downs. If we add those plays to the sacks, then he was pressured to the point he couldn’t throw a pass on 20% (28/140) of the team’s third down passing plays.
When you factor those sacks and other pressures into the equation, the 49ers’ conversion percentage on passing plays drops to 32.1%.
On third down rushing attempts, the 49ers converted 11/46 attempts for a conversion percentage of 23.9%. That’s low and a considerable drop from the passing percentage.
One common variable in the high sack + other pressure percentage on passing plays and the low third down conversion percentage on running plays is the offensive line. As a result, if we are going to insist on finding a scapegoat for a team problem, then I suggest we include the o-line in the pool of potential malfeasors.
By the way, my personal belief is that the single biggest contributing factor to a team’s third down conversion percentage is the team’s performance on first and second downs. Again, I don’t think we have sufficient data to know where the 49ers rank on those plays or to assign blame to any one player for that team’s success or lack thereof on 1st and 2nd downs, but I am sure that several of you will blame Smith for that as well.
N.B. I have yet to find a similar third down breakdown for the entire NFL, so I do not know how the foregoing numbers compare to other teams.
The 9ers will field their best overall team in more than 15 years. They added depth at WR and RB position via FA. They will have OTAs starting the 16th. Then the draft on the 28th to beef up some of the need positions. This is looking like a very special year. A tough schedule yes but the 9ers are a team to be reckoned with each and every game. Now with weapons on offense and a full offseason, they will work on learning more of the playbook that they couldn’t utilize last year. The coaches can now build upon each offensive players strengths to create match up issues for the defense.
Too many positives so *quit looking in the rear view mirror* and buckle your seat belts for some fast times in 9er land. It’s going to be a hell of a year. Go 9ers!!!
Claude,
your theory would hold water if it were not for the fact that Smith has been “league low” in terms of converting 3rd downs his entire career.
Doesn’t matter which offensive line, what groups of receivers he had, which offensive system or who was calling the plays.
He has always stunk at converting 3rd downs. What he lacks in “my opinion” is what Steve Young calls an “over my dead body” attitude.
He is passive Alex until his team gets down. Then you get a glimpse of a more aggressive QB. That is why both sides, the supporters and the non believers both become unified. The believers say, “see we told you he could play that way”. And the non believers think, ” hmmm, maybe he’s turned the corner”. But it’s always the same conclusion. Back to normal. Unable to sustain high level of play consistently. Quarter to quarter or game to game.
@ Everyone:
In my brief research on the third down conversion issue, I came across the following research paper entitled Relationships Between Player Actions and Game Outcomes in American Football :
http://www.sportsci.org/2011/mep.htm
The authors used regression analysis on data from 2004-2008 to determine which factors in a game had the greatest effect on the outcome of the game. The authors claim that their model successfully predicted game outcomes 92-93% of the time. I was only able to skim it, and do not have the statistics background to evaluate the authors’ methods or analysis, but I found it interesting and thought I would share.
One finding likely to be of interest to this Alex Smith-centric blog was that neither third down conversion percentage nor red zone success rate contribute significantly to game outcomes. I find that conclusion surprising.
@bay:
I am curious. Did you spend more than 2 minutes looking at the numbers and considering their implications or did you immediately dismiss them because they contradicted your preconceived conclusion?
@claude
The median 3rd down conversion rate is the 16th team in the NFL. They were the Bengals at 37.07%. The average (taken roughly from all 32 teams) is 38%.
Grants BS about “average” being 40% is just him trying to stir things up.
40% is top 10. That is in the top 1/3 of the league. By the way, the Panthers were that last 40+% team. How did their season turn out?
Know who was just behind the Bengals (the 16th team in the ranks)? The Bucs. yeah. They looked great amassing their crappy record while having the 17th best 3rd down conversion rate.The Super Bowl Champs are also below Grant’s average of 40% falling in at 38% in 12th.
Only 6 of the top 10 teams in 3rd Down conversion made it to the playoffs. And 2 of the lowest 10 teams. That leaves 8/16 playoff teams which made the playoffs somewhere in the middle. And the other bad team on 3rd down, were the Broncos (30th) just ahead of the Niners. Compared to 8/10 of the top 10 TO margin teams who made the playoffs. Which is more important and should be the focus on what a teams needs to be to go into the playoffs? And one of those 2 non-playoff top 10 TO ratio teams were the Seahawks who kicked butt the lat half of the season.
Grant is just perfecting the art of stirring the pot. Just like his claim that MC only had 7 drops. Well, he only had 72 catches. So his drop % is just under 10%. Add the playoffs to that and it is 77 catches and 12 drops. Or over 16%.
Compare that to the great one himself, JR had over 100 catches 4 times. And he didn’t drop a single pass in either of those 4 years. That is drop rate of 0% compared to 16%.
Yet the haters think that it is all AS fault. Find me a QB who is 16x more accurate than AS. You can’t. It isn’t possible. But you can find a WR who is 16x better than MC at actually catching the ball. That is not impossible.
@Claude
“One finding likely to be of interest to this Alex Smith-centric blog was that neither third down conversion percentage nor red zone success rate contribute significantly to game outcomes. I find that conclusion surprising.”
Why?
It ha been well known forever that the only stat that matters in football is turnovers (other than points in individual games, which of course is obvious).
TO’s are the only stat to keep track of. You win the TO battle, you win the game. You lose the TO you lose the game. The Niners season is a perfect example of this. We won the TO battle more than not and had a 13-3 record to show for it. We won the TO in the playoff game against NO, we won the game. We lost the TO battle against NY, and we lost the game.
That simple. TO’s win and lose games. Never let anybody try to confuse you with any other stat/figures/formulas. If they do, they don’t know what they are talking about.
Look at San Diego as proof. They had the 2nd best 3rd down conversion rate in the NFL last year only behind the Saints. They didn’t make the playoffs. Why? Because they were the 25th ranked team in TO margin.
3rd down conversions mean squat. You win the TO battle, you win the game.
Here are the links I used in my two posts above
http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/turnover-margin-per-game
http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/third-down-conversion-pct
Oh.
By the way about the improtance of 3rd down conversion vs. TO margin:
3 of the top 4 TO margin teams had the bye. Green Bay, Niners and the Pats all had byes. All in the top 4 in TO margin. The 4th, Detroit still made the playoffs.
SD the second best 3rd down team, wasn’t really in the hunt for the playoffs and pretty much stank all season long at doing the thing that matters most. Winning.
DS, Grant never said the average was 40%.
“Before I explain, let me define my terms. “Average” on third down would be a 38 percent conversion success rate and five conversions per game.”
If the 49ers had just been somewhere in the middle instead of near the bottom they would most likely have been in the Super Bowl.
Crabtree had a drop rate of 6.1%
He was targeted 114 times and had 7 drops.
The leading receiver for the Super Bowl Champs, Victor Cruz had a 5.3% drop rate. He was targeted 131 times and had 7 drops.
I will take that .8%…
How much YAC did Cruz and Nicks have in the playoffs/regular season? And how did they perform in the big games? That is where champions are made. How many drops/catches for each then?
Good for you taking MC over Cruz. I won’t. And I bet there are 32 GM’s who wouldn’t take MC over Cruz either.
DS, You are right I should have said that I can live with that .8%.
Sure, I would take Cruz or Fitzgerald over Crabtree if I could, and I would also take Rogers or Brees over Smith if I could.
The difference is that while you live on Fantasy Island with Tattoo and Mr Rourke, I live in the real world and try to keep things realistic.
De Plane! De Plane!
Did you know that Crabtree had the 9th highest YAC total of all WIDE RECEIVERS in the NFC in 2011?
Oh WOW!
Out of 16 teams #1 WR’s, our #1 is ranked 11 (bottom 1/3)!
WOW! That is just amazing. Really is.
Or not. Considering the WCO is designed for the WR to get YAC off of short passes and the guy is supposed to run for a mile after. Somebody named Jerry Rice is the standard of WCO WR’s. Maybe you’ve heard of him. Some loser who didn’t drop the ball for over a decade, and was targeted a lot more as well.
Can’t do that though if the defender is right on you because you can’t get open. So even if you don’t drop it one out of 10 times (7 drops, 72 catches is just about 10% Jack, not 6.8% or whatever) like MC does, he still won’t get very far.
And I remember him getting lots of his YAC in the first AZ game.
Rank 11/16 for a guy who makes a lot more than the 10 in front of him is not impressing anybody Jack.
P.S. Please post links to this type of thing in the future.
9th. Sorry for the typo.
Still sucks though. How many first downs did he drop? And with such teams like the Rams who didn’t have any WR’s to stay healthy all year, that stat really means something.
DS, you have to wonder if MC’s foot has never healed to the point where he could develop breakaway and YAC chops. Hopefully he will be healthy this season and with a little prodding from the new WRs on the roster, we will see more of that from him.
This season is make or break for more than just one player.
DS, no. Every team has more than 1 receiver and some of the guys above him are on the same team. YAC also is effected by the accuracy of the throw, so the fact he is even in the top 10 was actually a surprise.
As for the drop percentage, I would have thought that a master statistician such as yourself would know you need to take the total number of attempts to figure out the actual percentage.
Even with using your method the 2 would only be separated by 1.2%. I can live with that small of a number.
The link is on the Washington Post stats site. I will post it later when I have time if the discussion is still ongoing. In the mean time you can look it up for yourself if your that worried about my numbers.
“One finding likely to be of interest to this Alex Smith-centric blog was that neither third down conversion percentage nor red zone success rate contribute significantly to game outcomes. I find that conclusion surprising.”
Claude that is also in relation to QB’s throwing for 400 yds (typically because they are behind) and those throwing for 300 yds a game where it is 50/50 if their team wins. Now, take a look at the turnvover battle and that number goes way up – teams with the plus ratio at the end of the game wins. Now we know why JH and staff had AS focus on not turning over the ball versus throwing for 300+ yds each game last year!! Seems they know what they are doing ehh.
No DS. That’s where your ignorance shows through. There are no Rams receivers ahead of him. The list is:
Victor Cruz
Percy Harvin
C Johnson
Fitzgerald
Steve Smith
Jordy Nelson
Nate Burleson
Julio Jones
Crabtree
All those guys played with QB’s that threw for a lot more yards than our QB. The only exceptions being Percy Harvin and Larry Fitzgerald.
ribico
MC foot injury is chronic. He won’t get to his old college self. He is what he is.
Jack
I didn’t know that teams carried more than 1 WR. After last season I could have sworn we had none. That is why I’m here. Learn something new every day.
I don’t know who a master stat guy is. I can say with 100%certainty that nobody including the owner from what I do know. And why would anybody include passes that are not catchable with drop rates? If they did, the following c ould happen
QB throws 100 passes at a WR. All but 1 is uncatchable. That 1 is dropped . Your way of calc drops would be 1%. Right?
And you showed your reading comp ignorance. The point I made was that the Rams are 1 of those 16 teams. So they should not count. Their injury sit killed them. I would say the NFC had only 15 teams to count. 9 o Jack have you ever thought 1 reason why the Niners don’t throw it more is because the Niner WR suck? Seems just as likely as the other side saying the coaches don’t trust AS.ut of 15 instead of 9 out of 16. But whatever.
Claude, thank you for doing your part to make this a true statement, “this Alex Smith-centric blog”.
You don’t have to run in and support Alex every time someone says anything critical of the guy.
@Jack:
You don’t have to run in and support Alex every time someone says anything critical of the guy.
I don’t. And it’s not about supporting Alex Smith. It’s about correcting b/s. It’s not my fault that 95% of the b/s comes in comments about Alex Smith.
Claude, There are no stats that account for inaccurate passes that are actually caught. It directly effects YAC if the receiver has to make a leaping or shoe string catch.
That is the one thing that the great QB’s of our past were able to do consistently. They would hit Rice, Taylor, etc in full stride.
Jack, it is interesting that there are 2-3 people that post here only when it is AS related. Most of the time, their comments aren’t backed by facts as I’ve pointed out many times. Been there done that, so time to look forward and not back. You can’t change someone’s opinion if they misread facts or not.
Claude, the 9ers added two WRs to the receiving corps via FA. Plus it is widely speculated that they may add an additional WR in the draft, so that tells you what they think of the group. YAC? Other than VD, that is the biggest part of the WR game that is missing hence the upgrades. This is not a one way street debate.
@Jack:
There are no stats that account for inaccurate passes that are actually caught.
I am not sure that is correct. One of the Stat sites (Football Outsiders?) may track that sort of thing.
That said, your point is well-taken, at least with regard to the low passes. The high passes? Until I see something that shows it happens on throws other than to Crabtree, I think we have to consider the possibility that the WR was not where the QB expected him to be. The passes to Vernon Davis seem to be placed properly.
And again, no one really is arguing that Smith is “great.” I certainly am not.
Lol yeah Claude and I’m the drunk one. Dunt dun dun duuuuun!!!!! Ha ha haaaaaaa. Continue to strive onelames position smiths superhero. Wheew.
ninermd, That was actually quite funny and original.
Claude does a great job of wading through the BS no doubt about it. There is a difference between fact and innuendo that gets lost routinely in here. People can find whatever they want to spin the argument their direction, but the reality is usually lost in doing so.
@Claude, “That said, your point is well-taken”.
Thanks Claude. I don’t think it is just a Crabtree problem but we should get a much better idea this season with Manningham and Moss.
“There are no stats that account for inaccurate passes that are actually caught.”
Your whole thing (I believe) falls under what is called an informal fallacy argument. But… college was a long time ago and I may be mistaken. ;)
The best thing to do (and probably the simplest) is keep in mind what Michael Irvin has mentioned before on this topic: anything within about 2 feet or so of the numbers is the receiver’s responsibility zone. They must catch everything thrown in that zone – high, low or in the middle.
Indeed shoestring catches and high throws are hard to catch. But a great receiver is expected to catch passes thrown by a QB under duress. Remember some of the wobbly ducks Montana used the throw?
It happens.
Adam, I agree with you that they should catch everything close, but if they can’t catch it in stride it will effect the amount of YAC they can pick up.
jack…. I’m so sick of the Alex debate I know the truth. I’ve stated facts year after year and they were excused out. I’m sick of it. So I thought id give the Smithers camp a little shot.
Smith needs to improve more he improved last year and I believe he will crack top 7 this year. What more can I say that hasn’t been argued for years now? Nada. So I’ll continue to have some fun with the smith body guards. ;-) they are so fun.
md, The whole “Alex Smith improved in 2011″ thing is false. He was basically the same guy in 2011 that he was in 2010 and 2009. His stats are almost the same for the last 3 years, his only improvement was in the number of int’s he threw.
The team benefitted greatly from a huge +/- advantage, and the short fields that came as a result.
md, The whole “Alex Smith improved in 2011″ thing is false. He was basically the same guy in 2011 that he was in 2010 and 2009. His stats are almost the same for the last 3 years, his only improvement was in the number of int’s he threw.
His play has improved each year since his last shoulder surgery. His QB rating has improved each year to the point he was top ten this past season. He improved in his pocket awareness and decision making which led to the lower number of TO’s.
The team benefitted greatly from a huge +/- advantage, and the short fields that came as a result.
Just like the defense benefitted from not having to defend short fields due to the offense not turning the ball over. They go hand in hand Jack. I know many want to pass off the season as a Defense/ST’s double team, but the offense played a big part whether some want to admit it or not.
@ Rocket,
his team was also in a dog fight every week that resulted in nail biting victories every week because Smith couldn’t move the ball consistently and couldn’t score enough.
Once again, the proof is in the front offices interest in looking at other QB’s as well as their pedestrian contract offer to Smith.
Rocket, “His QB rating has improved each year to the point he was top ten this past season.”
Correct, direct correlation to the reduction in int’s. You are certainly correct that the turnover thing goes hand in hand.
But if you look at his stats for the last 3 years they are almost identical. He needs to somehow get over 20 TD’s this year, something he has never done, for this team to get back to where they were this year. The schedule is much more daunting.
To get back to the original topic of the post, I believe drafting Fleener, along with the other free agent acquisitions could help this happen.
Bay,
Their interest was in Peyton Manning, not some middle of the road QB. I agree with you that they are not completely sold on Smith and that is why they gave him the contract they did. Good move on their part. He either takes it up another notch this season, or they can walk away with no repercussions.
The signing of JJ was clearly an attempt to both beef up the depth and to throw a bone to an old friend of Harbaughs. With what they paid him, he is viewed more as a backup or 3rd QB at best, and if Tolzien improves he may even be hard pressed to make the team.
Jack,
It would help if he threw for 20+ TD’s, but the idea is to score and it doesn’t matter how it happens. The Niners were 11th in scoring last season. Sure they had some short fields and had to settle for FG’s far too often, but they put points on the board.
Where I totally agree with the Anti Smith side is in the lack of consistency. The offense does need to get a lot better in that area no question about it.
I also agree on Fleener. He’d be a great weapon to add to the team and would be a guy who would be a target inside the numbers where Smith is most comfortable.
@hof
Who are those 2-3 people?
Stop beating around the bush. Just say peoples names.
Claude,
I’ve come to the conclusion that both sides can throw up all the stats they want to lend strength to their position regarding #11.
In the end what cannot be disputed is that the passing game in football is evolving again.
I saw it happen twice in the past. Don Coryell had an impact, and so did Walsh. Well because of the defensive rule changes, it is happening again. QB’s are all lighting it up. Cam Newton came into the league and had multiple 400 yard games. Matt Flynn a career backup posted a 400+ yard 6 TD game against a team in which Smith could only post 127 yards. But the Alex crowd wanted to call him “clutch” after that game…. laughable.
The part that cannot be disputed is this, the league is becoming a full bore passing league. And while the 49ers are a running team, they spoke volumes in terms of their dissatisfaction with Smith’s offensive production. Both in terms of the contract offered as well as their interest in Manning this year and Hasselbeck last year.
Throw out all the stats you want but in the end, Smith needs to produce. Something he’s never done consistently. Someone get a blood hound to help this kid to sniff a 300 yard game for god’s sakes…
@Bay, Your point is well taken. Smith was clutch at the end of many games last year, but how many of those comebacks would have been necessary if he or the receivers hadn’t missed opportunities earlier in the game?
As for the big passing numbers, I think you need to realize that while the NFL as a whole has become all about throwing it all over the yard, that is not the case here. Harbaugh wants a balanced offense so you will see fewer passing attempts comparatively. The key for Smith is that he hits on those “shot” plays when they are there, i.e, KW on the post against NY.
That is what made Luck so successful in this same offense at Stanford. When the big play opportunity presented itself he usually hit it.
Bay,
A lot of what you say makes sense, but the lack of 300 yard games is irrelevant when you consider the offense the 9ers ran. Smith didn’t attempt the number of passes the higher ranked QB’s in yards did. You don’t get the yards without the attempts. It’s simple math.
Where I agree with you 100% is Smiths inability to sustain the same level of play consistently. In order to take a step up the ladder of respect, he needs to be able to show up with the A game every week which he has not done up to this point in time.
“…could only post…”
That part I disagree with for two reasons.
1) He did what was asked of him. (Anyone notice what NFL Net was saying on the availability of running backs in this draft, the other day? Very interesting. As more teams try to go the aerial attack route, some, like the Niners are reverting back to an effective ground and pound style that opposing defenses are no longer built for.)
2) YAC is not so good with this team. For those who don’t realize this, Montana got credit for every yard after the catch by Solomon, Rice and Taylor. A pass play (which includes YAC) is credited to the QB.
In the Detroit replay (as an example) Ted Ginn catches a pass, beats a defender and runs for a touchdown (that was a total of 75 yards – the pass play.) The play was called back because of the chop block called on Gore (which was actually caused by Rachal.) Smarter plays/players and better receivers would have made that game a lot easier to win. Delanie Walker’s drop in the end zone for an easy six points is another example.
Those examples are there all day long.
@ bay:
Let’s be clear. When you say Smith needs to produce, you mean he needs to post big Fantasy Football numbers.
I am not convinced that big numbers are as important as you think they are. Do you have any support for the notion that throwing for 400 yards (or even 300 yards) correlates to winning? We know that a positive turnover differential is the stat most correlative to winning. Smith “produced” big time in that category last year. You can dismiss it all you want, but doing so suggests you care more about numbers than about winning. It also suggests that you are never going to be happy as long as Harbaugh is coaching the team.
Not just fantasy football numbers. Third down production, too.
Smith won’t lead the Niners to a Super Bowl victory if he can’t adequately move the chains on third down for three straight games.
@ Rocket,
did you ever stop to think that Smith got less attempts because he doesn’t sustain drives? It’s one of the categories that Smith leads the league in. 3 and outs.
If he improved his 3rd down conversions, in theory which gave him lets say 3 more sets of downs a game, then that would probably equate to 4 more passes a game. Guess what the difference between Smith’s pass attempts per game and the average in the NFL is? Like 5 passes per game.
So is it Harbaugh’s offense, or Smith’s inability to keep his offense on the field that leads to less pass attempts?
This is a great point.
“In the Detroit replay (as an example) Ted Ginn catches a pass, beats a defender and runs for a touchdown (that was a total of 75 yards – the pass play.) The play was called back because of the chop block called on Gore (which was actually caused by Rachal.)”
Adam, that was the Ravens game. But your points are excellent. Another point is how many sacks did they take on 3rd down (18)? Not all on the QB if you re-watch the Ravens game among others.
Claude,
now you are beginning to assume. If you are going to do that then it makes you the biggest hypocrite in the room. You are the guy that makes the biggest deal about sticking to facts.
I used the big yardage examples just to show that lots of guys are putting up the big numbers and Smith couldn’t even do it by accident. I don’t want big numbers from Smith. First off because he doesn’t have the ability, 2nd reason, we don’t need them with this defense. We also don’t need him to be at the bottom of the league in just about every offensive category.
Start thinking like a football fan Claude instead of wasting your efforts being a crusader for the underdog. You are like a public defender doing pro bono work for the poor. While Alex is not poor in the wallet, he is poor in performance….
@ Grant,
thanks! I’m here all week.
Bay…. I’ve beatin that point to death for awhile now. Smith has led this offense to TONS of three and outs. It wasn’t a good point a couple of years ago and it probably won’t now. But your perfect on that subject. Good luck though. Wheew
@ MD,
it’s just a new question that “their” group will develop a series of new excuses for. But in the end it’s the truth. Know how I know? Because if it were a lie, Claude would cut and paste the $hit out of it and italicize it in attempts to make me look bad…..
Oh my God, an Alex Smith debate once again and guess who is leading the conversation, the same old players. Glad I checked in to see whats not happening!
Bay, good to see you are finally focusing on facts. I know you are big on 300/400 yd passing games, but they don’t usually equate to wins.
Regarding passing yards, a quote from Cold Hard Football Facts:
“Fans of imaginary fake football may get all excited by the big 400-yard passing day. But when all is said and done, a big passing day is largely irrelevant. In fact, in many cases, it’s a sign that you’re probably losing and need to pass for more yards to try to catch up. But as the Cold, Hard Football Facts prove, that passing effort does not always lead to victory. Teams with more passing yards barely won more than 50 percent of games in 2011. It’s a coin flip.”
@Grant:
Unless 3rd down conversions are less important to winning than you think they are.
Steve Young on third-down conversions: “We’ve kind of gotten away with murder trying to win football games with two of thirteen, four of fifteen. That’s not winning football.”
Bay,
Interesting theory, but if you want to use that as a measuring tool, you then have to do it for all the other teams and add more downs to their totals for the times they went 3 and out. See how this works? You’d also have to compare the yardage gained on 1st and 2nd down and what the average yardage of 3rd down conversions was. I know simply from memory that the Niners had a lot of 3rd and longs to convert this season.
You can’t focus on one team when applying these stats. The difference in percentage for 3rd down conversions wouldn’t even result in an extra 1st down a game when stretched over the course of a season and compared to a better 3rd down conversion team.
This is where stats fail to tell the complete story, and you have to instead look at the offensive playcalling. This team was a run first, low pass attempt system for a good portion of the season and it’s the biggest reason why Smith’s attempts were lower than most of the others.
Bay… So true. Like I was telling jack. I’ve been bringing up these facts for years now. So I sit back and watch you and j23 light em up with facts and pretty much what the realists and FO see. I’ve quit trying to change minds. They will never see it and ADMIT it. So hey to each their own. I do differ with you and j23 about next year though. I think harbaugh is that good where he will turn smith into a baller a top 7 baller. Either way if he fails we won’t see him stink or play a game manager season again. It’s finally do or die for Mr. Smith. The season can’t get here soon enough. Wheew
@ Rocket,
DISAGREE…. Big time. Like I said, if Smith converted more first downs, then it’s a fact that he would get more pass attempts.
I am not asking us to lead the league in 3rd down conversions. But if my theory holds true, then if we were amongst the leaders in this category, then Smith would in theory be amongst the league leaders in pass attempts.
Now that is an extreme. The truth is always in the middle. It’s going to take Smith doing something he’s never done to prove my case. He’s going to have to finish higher than his career average which is right around 29th in the league throughout his career.
MD,
Both sides have posted facts, stats and opinions and both have slanted things to fit their argument. It’s never been a black and white issue. It’s complicated and when people try to simplify it they look biased. Alex Smith is where he is at both due to his own failures and that of the organization who failed him. The result has been years of disappointment and blame being thrown at him; some deserved, some not.
What I keep trying to put out there is that you can’t look at Alex Smiths career as a whole. It’s impossible because there have been so many negative elements he’s had to face each year he’s been in the league. What we do know is the one year he had an Offensive minded HC, who related to him and worked with him personally, Smith had his best season as a pro.
That’s why I cringe at reading all these posts about his past history and how he’s reached his ceiling. If you look at the past 3 years, he has improved each season which certaintly doesn’t give the impression that he’s reached a ceiling. Let’s just see what he does in year two and make our observations then.
Didn’t the NFL settle the whole Alex debate just a few weeks ago?
No one wanted him.
That said, he’s a good fit for Harbaugh’s system and better than the available alternatives (Young, Leinart, etc.) Plan B Smith will have to do until the 49ers get a real QB.
Bay,
What I’m telling you is that you can’t make a comparison of that nature without applying the same considerations to the other 31 starting QB’s in the league. The pass attempts for every QB would go up with a better 3rd down conversion ratio. As I said, the difference between Smiths conversion rate and some of the top guys wouldn’t even add one extra 1st down a game over the course of a season. You are making it into a bigger number than it really is.
History is history. JH realized there were weaknesses at WR – he added two via FA. JH also realized that the short yardage 3rd down back wasn’t getting it done and brought in another RB via FA. They also allowed the starting right guard from last year to move on. They signed a FA QB to add depth and to compete with CK for the backup role.
Now the draft is around the corner and if they add CFleener to the mix there will be more weapons on offense than this team has seen since the days of Rice, Taylor and Jones. Step on the gas and don’t look back…
Rocket says, “If you look at the past 3 years, he has improved each season.”
Are you basing that solely on his rating?
Jack Hammer says:
April 10, 2012 at 1:20 pm
Rocket says, “If you look at the past 3 years, he has improved each season.”
Are you basing that solely on his rating?
I’m basing it on rating, and every facet of his development. His ability to make better decisions, running when there is nothing open, reading a defense. He’s gradually improved across the board with the biggest jump coming in a year without an offseason under a new HC. He still has weakness’ of course, but his play last year was another step up and if he continues, I can see the offense being much more effective in year two.
“Adam, that was the Ravens game.”
It was? Well that sort of makes sense then, I watched that one a few days before. :P
But those examples are all over the replays. Probably explains all the activity this off-season with wideouts.
Rocket, Thanks for clarifying. I mostly agree with your though that in year 2 the offense will be more effective. They have done a good job maintaining the core strengths, defense and special teams, while adding new pieces to build up the weak link, offense with some new faces in key positions, WR, RB, and QB.
It will be fun watching how this team comes together over the remaining offseason.
Bay,
The team was 13 – 3 last year well above anyone’s expectations here and elsewhere. How exactly did the 3rd down conversions and efficiency affect the outcome for the year? You’re acting as though the 3rd down conversions and efficiency had some sort of affect on a very successful year?! Teams that were well above the 9ers in 3rd down efficiency didn’t come close to their W/L record, so your point is overreaction and hyperbole. Does a better 3rd down conversion and efficiency rating in 2011 make the team a 16 – 0 team when expectations were 8 – 8 at best? So why all of this focus regarding 3rd downs when they *only* lost 3 games and teams with a higher 3rd down efficiency rating were well below the 9ers success level??
Some questions for you regarding other factors to consider regarding the 9ers 3rd down conversions and efficiency ratings:
You don’t think losing JMorg and BEdwards to injuries early on affected the 3rd down conversions? How about DW late in the year with a broken jaw? If all of those players were available for the whole year, you don’t think the 3rd down conversions would have improved?
How about the replacement of CRachal at RG by Snyder do you think if Snyder had played all year at RG that would have help with OL chemistry thus improving the pass blocking and ultimately the 3rd down conversion rates and efficiency?
How about the fact that VD was kept in to block to the point of his frustration due to the OL issues in the 1st half of the year. If the 9ers didn’t need to resort to that tactic, do you think having AS’s “go to” receiver out on pass plays versus blocking would have helped with 3rd down conversions?
How about the OTAs and lockout? Do you think they utilized the whole playbook last year? Do you think everyone learned the playbook equally well? They all knew the plays without missing assignment or cutting off routes especially early in the season? Did that affect 3rd down efficiency?
Now adding more weapons on offense do you think that will help the entire offense with 3rd down conversions?
Bay, the *problem* with your little anecdotal comment is you purposely forget the facts and the relationship of 3rd down efficiency to the whole team and specifically the key players needed on offense to *execute* these 1st downs. Practice squad players don’t cut it and neither do ST PR/KR guys.
Fasten your seat belts the team is better than ever in 2012. Go 9ers!!
Hofer,
thanks for the list of excuses. That covers this last year. This has been a career long issue for Mr. Smith, not just a 2011 season issue.
I unlike you am not a Smith first fan, I am a 49er fan. I am just pointing out deficiencies on my favorite team and hoping they will be addressed.
And once again, the front office agrees that they are not happy with our QB’s production.
Now Hofer, once again I give you a chance to be objective by answering a couple of pretty easy questions.
1. What do you see as Alex’s major flaws and how do you think he will fix them?
2. Are you tied to Smith either through friends or family?
Bay, what you deem excuses is your little agenda shining through. Find one of the questions I asked you regarding how the 3rd down conversion would have been improved and debate or disprove my factual account of the situation. Just keep up the negativity all the way to the playoffs and SB – we need your drivel.
@bay:
I am a 49er fan. I am just pointing out deficiencies on my favorite team and hoping they will be addressed.
And once again, the front office agrees that they are not happy with our QB’s production.
No you’re not. Your just a guy who is too embarrassed to admit that he was wrong about Alex Smith. Smith may not be great, but he is not “deficient.”
And it has been clear since last year that Harbaugh and the 49ers clearly disagree with you. Sure, they checked out Peyton Manning because he is, well, Peyton Manning. But Smith’s contract establishes that the team is not unhappy with his production. If the team was unhappy, it wouldn’t have agreed to pay him a guaranteed $15.5 million ($12.5 million in absolute guarantees + $3 million roster bonus, which is effectively guaranteed because the team will not cut him before this season after guaranteeing him $12.5 million).
Again, your obsession with Alex Smith is tiresome. If you truly were a fan of the team, then one would think you could talk about something else.
Grant,
The WR corps has to do their job as well. Alex does need to get better at his throwing accuracy, but the WRs need to not drop the ball when the pass is accurate. The play-calling has to get better as well. Just saying that the road to the Super Bowl depends on just Alex Smith improving is just ridiculous. The offense as a whole has got to get better. That is the only way the 49ers can win another Super Bowl. It doesn’t depend on just one person.
“The quarterback defines the limit of the offense.” – Bill Walsh
@Grant,
Bill Walsh talking about Alex Smith from the other side..
MidWestNiner,
The argument that Smith suffers from dropped passes is a weak one. Do you realize that the leading receiver for the Falcons, Roddy White had 15 dropped passes last year while both of our leading receivers, Crabtree and Davis dropped 13 passes COMBINED?
I can’t argue with Walsh’s logic. However, a QB can be limited if his WRs keep dropping passes. It’s really a two-way street Grant.
Crabtree dropped seven passes last season.
Apples and oranges Jack. That has more to do with the offensive scheme the coach wants implemented.
Alex Smith does one throw better then any QB in the NFL, he throws the best worm burners in the league, ask Michael Crabtree about all of those throws by his shoe laces, or 6 feet in front of him on the ground.
MidWestNiner,
It is apples to apples. For further comparison Crabtree was our leading receiver and dropped 7 passes. The only team in the NFC that was better than the 49ers was the Giants. Their leading receiver was Victor Cruz and he dropped 7 passes.
Blaming Smith’s 3rd down problems on the WR’s is weak.
I think I’ll stick with asking Vernon Davis what Smith’s best pass is.
MidWestNiner,
Why ask Davis? He dropped a higher percentage of passes from Smith than Crabtree?
Jack,
Care to explain how me saying it’s not all on Smith is weak? If a WR has trouble making a catch, won’t that limit the QB? If the play-call was bad, won’t that limit the QB? All I’m saying that the onus isn’t on just Smith but the offense as a whole to get better. No matter what the opinion of Smith is, THAT TRUTH CAN’T BE DENIED.
Davis also has one of the greatest TD catches in the 49ers playoff history.
MidWest,
Your are correct that the onus goes to everyone to improve, but you also singled out the receivers for dropping too many passes, and that is inaccurate.
And yes, Davis had actually had a few of the best TD catches in 49ers history. All of them were awesome!
Jack,
In my 3:41 P.M. post today I mentioned the play-calling as well. Each area improved, but all areas, from Smith to the WRs to the play-calling, have to get better. Just one area improving won’t be the road to the Super Bowl.
MidWestNiner says:
April 10, 2012 at 3:58 pm
“I can’t argue with Walsh’s logic. However, a QB can be limited if his WRs keep dropping passes. It’s really a two-way street Grant.”
This kinda looks like you singled out the WR for dropping passes, or am I reading this wrong?
Clearly the BW quote is out of context here because BW would take into account the system being run and changes every year, HC/OC capabilities and experience, and organization talent level (see SYoung and JPlunkett).
How is it being taken out of context?
“Crabtree dropped seven passes last season.”
Yes and that is ** 10% ** of his 72 catches which is high.
Midwest, don’t waste your time trying to talk logic to some of these people. Comparing 3rd down efficiency back in 2009/2010 with that inept offense to this new offense is apples and oranges. Now with a full offseason and added talent at the WR and a big 3rd down back, the 9ers will increase the 3rd down conversion rate. Add CF if they indeed go in that direction, they will *finally* have as much talent as SY and JMo had with JR, JT and BJones. Look toward the future. Can’t wait!
“Blaming Smith’s 3rd down problems on the WR’s is weak.
Why is it weak? Clearly they lost JMorg and BE early on to inuries. They also lost DW to injuries later in the season. VD was kept in to block for half of the season.
Now during FA they add *two* new WRs and most likely will draft a WR in the draft and possibly a TE. Doesn’t sound like JH and staff is *thrilled* with last year’s WR group does it!!
Hofer, Compare Crabtree’s numbers to the leading receiver of the team that won the Super Bowl.
Victor Cruz caught 82 passes, with 7 drops. Hakeem Nicks had 76 catches with 6 drops.
Those numbers look pretty close to Crabtree in comparison.
Hofer, He said that the receivers didn’t help Smith by dropping so many passes, and that is a weak argument. Our leading receivers, Crabtree and Davis dropped the same number of passes in the regular season as the team that won the Super Bowl.
As for your comment that they have used free agency to upgrade the WR position that is true. It is also true that they weren’t thrilled with the play of their QB since they tried to replace him for the second straight year in free agency as well. See, that argument cuts both ways…
I’m not singling anybody out. As I said, it is a two-way street. I just get tired of people putting or all on Smith. He isn’t the only reason for the weak passing game. He is part of the puzzle needing to be solved on offense, but so too are the WRs and the play-calling as well.
It, not or.
Midwest,
Well said!
“don’t waste your time trying to talk logic to some of these people.”
You are right about that Hofer. It is easier to just ignore reality than listen to facts.
Does all of the blame fall on Smith. Of course not. If you were around on the weekend you would have seen the back and forth that Grant and I had on the third down topic.
I am of the belief that a large part of the 3rd down issues are the play calling. Back in ’08 with Martz calling the offense Hill converted on 44.4% of third downs. Then in 2009 with Raye calling the plays his conversions went down to 31.5%. When Smith took over from the middle of game 6 on he converted at almost the same rate. Same thing in 2010, where Smith converted around 29% compared to the 27% between Carr and T Smith. Then last year he ended up around 30% again with Roman, plus they had the injuries as you mentioned.
The “wide receivers drop the ball too often” argument is weak because if you compare the number of drops between the 49ers and the Super Bowl champs, the percentage of drops is less than 1% higher.
Just use the leading receivers as an example:
Victor Cruz- Targets 131, Drops 7, Drop% 5.3
M Crabtree- Targets 114, Drops 7, Drop% 6.1
@FDM
Of course. What else would we have? A topic about the other positions that need to improve to get the Niners to the Super Bowl? Nooooo.
Not here. It is all AS. All the time. If you want your AS agenda material, you’ve come to the right place. If you want any non-AS Niner related news, you won’t find it here. After all Grant says we have the best 2-53 roster in the NFL. So, I guess we have all pro starters and backups in all positions as well. Yeah. Like our All Pro WR’s. And our All Pro OL (all 5). And our All Pro RB’s and All Pro, well everybody. But AS.
@Jack
How about basing AS’s improvement based off his wins? That is all that matters at the end, right?
Sounds good DS. Then I guess that Goldson doesn’t have any room for improvement either sine he was a PRO BOWLER and helped the team just as much as Smith get to that 13-3 record.
See how that argument goes both ways…
Right, Bay. The defense singlehendedly won 14 games for us, never gave up a big play. Any third down that was converted was Gore running with the rock. MC scored half of our TDs on end arounds, Ginn the other half on returns.
In other words, the whole team , not just #11, needs to produce.
Ribico, Can you ever contribute anything other than defending Smith to the conversation?
What are your thoughts on the draft?
Jack, pick your battles. Rib has added a lot here over the years actually. He didn’t change the subject of the blog article. So move on…
Hofer, Don’t come at me with that BS…I have seen you do the exact same thing many times. The topic is about the draft, not Smith, and your boy hasn’t mentioned anything about the topic.
Jack, quit playing referee – it’s not needed.
Hofer, Mind your own business. I was speaking to Ribico, and wanted to know if he has an opinion on something other than Alex Smith.
No need for you to play referee and stick up for your boy.
Jack, if it were all about minding ones business here, you would never comment. BTW, did you notice your boy bay posting his same MO before Rib? Like I said, you stuck your nose where it didn’t belong and Bay doesn’t need your help.
Hofer, Bay is partially correct, there are some accuracy issues with Smith that don’t show up in completion percentage.
I just call it as i see it. As for backing guys on here, I don’t back anyone. If I think someone is way off I call them on it. If I agree with them I let them know it.
If you look at my last comment to Bay I agree with one point, and disagree with another.
Jack, you have a filter than leans and is not non-biased as it relates to the QB psoition so don’t try to act like you are an arbitrator here. There are extremes on this blog and although Bay doesn’t go as far as Jordo, he doesn’t find fault with anyone on offense other than the QB. No need to respond time to move on.
Your right Hofer. Unlike most on here I am not pro or con Alex. I can objectively speak to both his strengths and weaknesses.
You see it as leaning, oh well, life will go on…
Jack, I only defend Alex when someone stupidly singles him out as if all 22 players on the field were wearing #11. Such as Grant’s column about “Alex’s” weakness on 3rd down. It’s TEAM WEAKNESS. Get it through your 24 YO head.
The draft? I’m a lurker, I don’t follow college ball at all so I don’t get hyped on individuals. I do get amused over the blog “experts” who blast the team’s picks, like last year. I don’t think there was one person who would have seen what Balke saw in Aldon. IMO, teams needs are OL, WR, depth at RB and secondary. I expect the team will address them and I expect people here to decry the “boneheaded” picks.
Thank you for the response Ribico. I think the 3rd down results also have a lot to do with play calling, along with the performance of the players. I think 2012 will be the defining year for Smith.
@jack
“Ribico, Can you ever contribute anything other than defending Smith to the conversation? ”
When is that opportunity ever available on this blog Jack? I have read this blog for a long time. And since Grant has taken control, it has become all AS all the time in ways that I thought were unimaginable before. Every blog topic is AS. Grant directs it to be. Why don’t you find a week since the off season where Grant does not talk about AS/reply to an AS post. When you find it, let me and ribico, FDM and undercenter and a lot more in on it. We would like it. Undercenter wrote a post to Grant like week ago or so about it.
DS, go back to sleep. Ribico and I already covered that and have moved on…
I can do and say what I want when I want Jack.
If that offends you, tough luck. You waste just as much time with me as I do with you.
And, I think the same way as ribico about the draft if you were wondering.
I would argue that Defenses in the NFL would argue that Alex is inaccurate. They showed this repeatedly in the way they defended the 49ers with the amount of 8 and even 9 men in the box schemes. BTW 9 almost unheard of it leaves all cb’s on an island with no safety help. It shows a complete disrespect for qb and wr’s ability to make big plays. I would like to see a stat on which teams faced the most 8 men in the box schemes, if anyone has that.
No.
AS is actually among the most accurate passers in the NFL.
The Niners want to run. Other teams know that. They stack the box to prevent them from running. The Niners NEED a WR who will force teams to double him every play. If they had one, then no stacking the box, and that opens up the run game (fewer defenders) and the passing game as well. AS is one of the best QB’s against the blitz. If the Niners had somebody who can get open and catch the ball, they would be VERY hard to stop.
>>They showed this repeatedly in the way they defended the 49ers with the amount of 8 and even 9 men in the box schemes. BTW 9 almost unheard of it leaves all cb’s on an island with no safety help. It shows a complete disrespect for qb and wr’s ability to make big plays.
That was Greg Williams’ game plan against AS and the Niners and it cost him his job.
That was Greg Williams’ game plan against AS and the Niners and it cost him his job.
This was not just Greg Williams Game plan. The Giants did the same thing (who also routinely lined up 9 in the box), as did the Cardinals, Rams, and Seahawks and just about every other team that faced us late in the season.
Considering our 14-4 season, how many were all that successful with it?
Am I the only guy who likes Wylie”perfect NFL slot “-this guy is faaaast with great hands,routes,and is a KR to boot.
DWylie may be a WWelker type?!!
Exactly Hof.
8611,
I guess time will tell in regards which QB will win out. To me, I saw a different Alex Smith last year under Harbaugh and his system. It also seamed to me that as the year progressed and Smith became more and more comfortable in it, he was actualy performing better and became rather productive. He usually delivered when called upon to throw or make the throw, but there’s no use trying to change each other’s mind about it when time will soon enough show which of us, if either, is correct.
Yes, I agree that Fleener will be gone before we pick at 30, but I think he’ll fall far enough in the draft to make the possibility of trading up to take him actually affordable. If he gets past the Bears with their 19th overall pick then we should be able to move up into one of the low 20s spots to draft him. I don’t want the Niners to trade the house for him, but if they can trade away a couple of midround picks along with their 1st rounder to get him, I think they should do so. He’s not getting past the Broncos with their 25th overall pick, so it would depend on how far he falls and how much it would take to move up and grab him. Seeing how our roster is so complete already and that there’s no way will actually be able to keep all 7 players we would end up drafting if we do keep all our picks, it would make sense to try and package a few of our picks to try and move up if there’s a player we really like that’s just a little too far from our current reach.
Carmelo,
Regarding Alex Smith, you’re right, we will find out soon enough. When talking about Alex Smith, people are fond of talking about his 3rd down performance or his red zone performance – or lack there of. I think my biggest thing is Smith’s inability to put teams away and step on their necks. I think that’s a big part to who Jim Harbaugh is, and I don’t think 49ers fans see that yet. Jim Harbaugh wants to have total control of a game and be up by 3 touchdowns so his defense can make the offense one dimensional and the his offense can do whatever it likes. Harbaugh wants to dominate. He can’t with Smith.
Take the Saints game for instance that everyone went GA-GA over regarding Smith’s play. The Saints turned the ball over FIVE TIMES. Goldson returned the ball to the five yard line, and the Saints fumbled on two separate kick returns inside their own twenty. A good qb steps on their neck and is up by 21 pts easy and 28 with some work, demoralizing the opposition and forcing the opposition to throw and play a come from behind game. My biggest problem is that Smith isn’t capable of putting teams away, and that leads to problems throughout games. Smith also doesn’t answer enough. Sure, he answered against the Saints when Gregg Williams elected to go single coverage on Vernon during the last drive when everyone knowledgeable was screaming for them go zone. Even as a Smith hater, I’d say that was an accomplishment for Smith. But it’s not enough for Harbaugh. Trust me.
In 2011, Jim Harbaugh wasn’t able to pull Smith when he was missing passes or generally ineffective because Harbaugh didn’t have a competent backup. Now he does. JJ is more mobile, with a quicker release, and the same understanding of Harbaugh’s offense.
In addition, nobody could be worse than Smith throwing the deep ball. Now the wheel route? That’s a different story. That’s Smith’s bread and butter. But all the other routes in the tree? No bueno, amigo.
ESE, this blog article was about the draft. We get it, you don’t like AS – no need to write a book. Let it play out…
Everyone wants to be up by three. That’s a good one. Best qb will start. We need the draft already.
86-11,
They can’t handle the truth!
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Please welcome Colonel Jessup to the board.
Waterman –
This team, with its defense and special teams, should be up by 21 on most teams by the first half. The only game the 49ers put away by the first half last season was the Bucs game, and that was because Carlos Rogers scored for Smith, and Culliver got an INT as well. You put a decent quarterback on the offensive side of the football, and we’re up by 21 points in most games. With a bad quarterback, every game is close unless the defense scores points.
Eighty six,
nice post. Doesn’t make you come off as a hater at all. Everything you said is true. A defense like ours has a window of opportunity and ours is right now.
If we can’t get our passing offense fixed, we will have missed our window.
As much as I detest seeing #11 under center, I feel for Harbaugh and our front office. These guys don’t just grow on trees. I understand we tried for Hasselbeck last year and Manning this year. We failed to get both and we failed to upgrade a weakness on our team. But who else is there? Flynn is unproven and wanted too much money. If Vince Young wasn’t so wacko, I would have loved to have kicked the tires. So what we will have to do is upgrade through the home grown process. I trust that something will be done. They are building a brand new stadium and they need a QB that is the face of the team to help sell tickets. A photo shopped Nike image of meek Smith trying to look “mean” is laughable. It really is. This fan base will lose it patients. There is no putting anymore lipstick on our low scoring pig. I love Akers, but I don’t want to see him with record breaking scoring again. And neither does our defense. They deserve better.
BayAreaFanatic – I’ll say this, I think Harbaugh is already a great coach, but I don’t think he’s doing enough to upgrade the quarterback. I think signing Smith to a three year deal put the 49ers in playoff purgatory while Smith is the starter. You’ll laugh at this, and maybe it is a little bit of ABAS bias in me, but I honestly thought last year the 49ers should go after Hasselbeck (which they did) , but then also go after a guy like Matt Moore. This was at the start of last year I was saying this, so it’s not hindsight. Last year Moore had comparable numbers to Smith, without Jim Harbaugh as his head coach. What could Moore have done with Harbaugh last year? This year, yes, they went after Manning, but Matt Flynn was also a possibility – and he’ll prove to be better than Alex Smith statistically. Now wins are another story because the Seahawks aren’t the 49ers. Pete Carroll isn’t Jim Harbaugh. But Flynn can do more than Smith. I think, also, that Flynn would have taken less to play in SF than he did in Seattle if Harbaugh had expressed serious interest. It’s more lucrative to play for a great team and chase Super Bowls – the likelihood getting a second, even larger contract is better. I think Harbaugh didn’t go after Flynn, however, not because of the money, but because I think Harbaugh wants Kaep to start here pretty soon.
Spit,
Who would you rather they signed?
Well said EightySixEleven
People will be saying “this is alex’s year” in 2023 and a billion excuses to why he stinks. Last year was alex’s ceiling which would be an extremely pedestrian year for any good nfl qb, he’s not good enough, please use your limited brains and turn the page. If it hasn’t happened yet it’s not gonna happen, he’s not in year 2 he’s going on year 8, he is a veteran. I bet Tim Couch wishes the niners drafted him, he would still be on our team.
Thanks for your thoughtful and informed analysis.
…..+2
….-1
Way to make blanket statements with no facts to back them up and therefor be devoid of any true credibility.
+2
>>please use your limited brains and turn the page
Just wondering. Is that addressed to our Coach of the Year?
No matter what gets posted on this blog, scroll down to the comments and they are always about Alex. Now to stop contributing to that… I agree with Cosell’s take on the receivers. I hope the 49ers grab Jones/Givens in the second or third if they can’t get Fleener/Wright/randle in the first.
Tkamb, good points. RRandle strengths read similar to MC’s. KWright seems to be a MM type receiver. I don’t see them going there on those two. They could wait til the 2nd round (bottom of second is like 3rd round) and get one of the WRs that is rising (Toon, Quick, Jones, etc). Just my gut feeling that they go DL or DB in the 1st round.
I don’t really think Randle compares to MC, hes bigger and faster. I think both randle and wright could be number one receivers, randle reminds me of Kenny Britt and Wright reminds me of Greg Jennings. I really, really hope we don’t go defense in the first. I like the starters and backups at pretty much all the positions besides safety and there isn’t a safety worth taking where we’re picking unless Barron falls.
@Hofer
Cosell compares K. Wright to H. Nicks of the Giants which I think is a fair comparison. I agree with you regarding WR in the 3rd round – perhaps Marvin Jones. They’ll probably go defense with their 1st and O-line with their 2nd round picks.
Nick, I don’t get GCosell’s comparison at all – KW is shifty and quick very similar to MM. Plus he is 3 inches shorter and 20lbs lighter than HNicks!
Anyway, not sure the WRs they would draft at # 30 would have the value of a DL or DB/S for that pick. As you suggest, a 3rd round guy may suffice there.
KW = KWright
Nick,
He compared Randle to Nicks, not Wright. Wright is a smaller receiever like DeSean Jackson without the speed Jackson possess’.
I think we move up a few spots to get Fleener.
1. We move ahead of Denver. The most realistic spot that he would really start to become a target.
2. The first round talent for our CB/OL/PASS RUSHER will likely already be off the board. If they arent, they become options.
Second most likely option is we move down, stockpile a few picks and add some depth/competition. These second round WRs, DL, and CBs could be good value at a discount.
My dark horse pick is Martin from BSU. Yes, I’m a homer. But he is a very willing pass blocker, good receiver, and very tough between the tackles. He also happens to be a good kid.
You’re not a homer for Martin. That guy’s outstanding. I’d be willing to bet, though, that the Detroit Lions draft Martin in the first round to replace Best. Best should retire, and probably will pretty soon. Kevin Smith and Best are monuments to inconsistency. The Lions need a runner who can run single back while being durable, and Doug ran single back with the best of ‘em in college. The Lions are a different team with a running attack out of single back.
Yeah, he probably should retire. I would just be shocked if Martin went that high. And Det. needs more help on the other side of the ball.
Reality is, i want them to look long and hard for the best OL. Both RG and RT. Even if they go with our first and second pics. Were a -right-side-of-the-line away from another dynasty.
Daniel Kilgore would be fine as the starter all year. He’d be just as good as Snyder. We already have the line. We’re a quarterback away from a dynasty.
8611
Lions drafted m leshoure last yr in the 2nd, before he tore his achillies they were really high on him so i doubt they go rb early in back to back years
I want the OLB from Boise in the 2nd rd. He would be a real nice pair for Aldon I think.
I think that we hold pick #30, and when Fleener comes up, we pass him over for Hill or Randle; we already have two of the best TE’s in the league. Is Reuland ever going to get on the field? Byham is our blocking TE. What we’re painfully short on, is big, fast WR’s…..GO NINERS!!
I hope Cossell has been using the criteria used by The Master in evaluating the WRs in the draft:
http://www.sportsxchange.com/DS97/walsh/walsh2wr.htm
Sounds like he was describing Rueben Randle to me. 6’3 210 lbs, long-strider, physical, great body control, durability, strong hands, etc.
I didn’t follow Randle’s career, but he does appear to have some of the attributes Walsh prized. Walsh appears to stress on strength combined with balance that allows the receiver to catch the ball in traffic.
Walsh’s description of “full stride speed” sounds a lot like Parathe Maraage describing the importance of the final 20 yards of the 40 m times.
I don’t want Parathe evaluating personnel.
Paraag Marathe is his name and he is a key man in the rise of the team !
Ah thanks Tim. I totally mangled the dude’s name. Hope he doesn’t read this.
You people are nerds, enough talk just wait for draft day, the Niners won’t pick the obvious and my guess is that they will go for a corner back. Enough said. You can take that to the Bank and make a deposit.
Attaboy, Neal. Way to make friends. :P
Too late for that Adam, anyway internet friends are so shallow. hahah
The less obvious choice is someone on the DL with the Niner’s first pick Neal, especially where our DL was the best in the league last season.
Midwest,
That could be, we have one great tight end and one good one, don’t thick they will pick Fleener, they need to beef up their defense because without a great defense we are not going anywhere.
You have to think value when you pick #1. Is Randle another Rice? Rank 55th player. TE is not the focus of our offense. We run first. Maybe we need someone to backup Gore. Defense wins championships. Would a good DE/DT be worth # 1. Reyes or Thompson or Branch. Giants always get passer rushers. Also our O-line needs help. OT/OG like Sanders or Washington. Smith could pass better if he had the time. Or trade down for more middle picks, where you can get more value. Less $$$. RB Polk / Gray, DE Curry / Jones, OLB Massaqui, WR D.Jones / Criner. You don’t want to make a mistake with #1. Spend $$$ and waste of time.
Great post mainly because I agree with you. lol
I’m thinking Reyes but VCurry could sneak in there at #30 and he is combo of size and speed – they could add 10 -15 lbs to his 265lb frame and he probably not slow down a step. He could backup JSmith and then take over in a couple of years.
I also like CPolk in the 2nd round. He will be drafted and be that all around back we haven’t seen since TThomas of Buffalo.
RRandle is roughly the same size as MC but he plays bigger. He may have the same issues as MC getting separation from really good DBs.
Hof – I have noticed you seem to be real high on Polk. I myself see him as okay with some buts. Maybe you could enlighten me on something that I may be missing about him.
Under, CP played on a poor team yet was an overachiever (tough mentally when he could have thrown in the towel). He is a north to south inside between the tackles runner and always gets positive yards (he doesn’t go sideways). He is also an excellent pass receiver out of the backfield and has enough in sixth gear to get around the corner. Now will the 9ers draft him? Who knows but so many ways to go it is unlikely.
Thanks – sounds go to me, he indeed played on a bad team.
I personally want Criner from AZ. Think he has the potential to be a star. But my opinion based off what he did at az, don’t know if he will transition to an NFL offense.
Criner looks like he can play, if you ask me. I wouldn’t be upset if we took a shot on him.
Mock 2.0 –
Round 1 – Coby Fleener, TE, Stanford
Round 2 – Jared Crick, DE, Nebraska, 49ers will use their 2,4,5 to move into the top 75 and select Crick.
Round 3 – Marvin Jones, WR, Cal
Round 6 – Eddie Pleasant, S Oregon
Round 7 – BPA
Your first three picks are gold. I don’t know much about Pleasant. My take on the draft is if Flenner is gone at 30 the Niners can move down and get a high 2. The talent level looks equal at the lower end of the first and the first half of the second. My only criticism of your draft is what about a guard? Someone really good is going to fall at 30, can’t wait to see what the Niners do.
@Jack:
The 49ers’ 2nd round pick is the 61st pick in the draft and therefore already in the top 75.
Two pass catchers, but no help on the o-line? That would be ballsy.
Claude, I meant top 50 but couldn’t erase it one I noticed the mistake.
I am assuming that they feel they have their right guard between Kilgore, Person, Garret Chisolm, or a veteran that they bring in.
Exactly Jack. If they can’t get one of the top 3 OL in the first round, then maybe they’ll use the 5, 6, or 7 pick to grab someone like DDennis. I’m thinking and have mentioned her that if they come away from the draft with a DL, RB, WR, DB/S, then it’s been a good draft.
*here*
If they draft a RB it will be in the later rounds. If I had to bet on it, I would bet against them drafting a RB.
Jack, that is exactly why I don’t think it is CF or any offensive guy in the first round. They can get RB’s and WR’s in rounds 2-5. I have a gut feeling they are focusing on a stout DE/DT type which is more of a value pick in the latter part of the 1st round. Either way they go it will be exhilarating just to have talk of some new news.
This is a draft where the 9ers aren’t going to be forced to look at need. They can just let the draft come to them and take the BPA. If they see somebody fall they think is worthy of trading up for, they can, but otherwise can just sit there and take what comes at them. It’s a great position to be in.
I love Eddie Pleasant from Oregon. He started at LB and switched to safety his junior year. Really came on his senior year and is now flying a little under the radar. He was first team all Pac-12. He has adequate size at 5ft 10 in and 210 lbs. Hes a solid mid round pick and would make up for the loss of Reggie Smith quite well.
This all but assures that Fleener won’t be a 49er…
http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2012/04/crush.html
How?
Look at Matt’s other crushes… we didn’t get one ; )
I think Baalke would have drafted Von Miller over Aldon Smith @ 7 had he been available. Carl Nicks would have been a great pick in ’08. Harvin would have been a better pick than Crabtree in ’09. Spiller was way overrated.
GC, everything you stated I agree with but the question is, do they pull the trigger moving up 5 spots or so to ensure they secure CF? Is the cost too much given they already have DW and VD with needs at DL, DB/S and RB?
I think Fleener will fall, but if he doesn’t, yes, they should trade up. I can’t see any more than four draft picks making the Niners, so Baalke will probably trade up at some point to consolidate.
I don’t think of Fleener as just a TE. He could line up inside or outside as a WR, too.
The Niners have a bigger need for an offensive play maker like Fleener than a backup five-tech like Kendall Reyes.
There’s a good chance Walker signs elsewhere next off season. but there’s a slim chance Justin Smith and Ray McDonald aren’t the starting five-techs in 2013.
That’s how I look at it.
Grant, Agree with you on Miller, Nicks and Spiller. How would Harvin have been a better pick than Crabtree?
I think Harvin is better, but it’s close. Back to the original point, Crabtree would have have been the draft crush in ’09 had Niner fans known he was going to drop. Fans thought he was going to be a top-five pick.
@Grant:
Drafting a lesser player because of need is not the path to sustained greatness.
Fleener is a better player than Reyes.
Agreed. I really think Fleener adds another dimension to this offense and helps improve the biggest weakness on this team from last year, 3rd down and Red Zone conversions.
Hard to forgive Barrows for Spiller but the rest of that list is pretty darned good. Especially Nicks – wasn’t he drafted in the 4th round?
I agree with Grant. I’m on the Fleener train.
Overall, value-wise and 49er value-wise he’d be a lock in my estimation.
Jack,
Not bad, but I don’t see them trading up for Crick. If he falls I could see it, but he’s not a guy I could see them dumping picks to move up for.
I like the players you chose though. That would be an impactful draft for sure.
Rocket,
Crick was a projected Round 1 guy going into the season then tore his peck and missed much of the season. He has shown well in workouts and is moving towards the top end of Round 2. He is also looked at as a clone of Justin Smith.
He’s a good player; just not someone I see them trading away those picks for.
There’s a safety available in the 3rd round from LSU that Mike Mayock likes – Brandon Taylor. I appreciate Mayock’s evaluation of players far more than McShay, Kiper or Bucky Brookes. And seriously, Bucky Brookes is an idiot. Mayock wasn’t high on Taylor Mays coming out of USC. He liked Earl Thomas instead. That’s solid scouting, especially for safeties. I’d trust his evaluation again. The 49ers desperately need a safety in the top three picks.
For my money, I go WR in the first, safety in the second and guard in the third. Forget the names. The draft is all about value and drafting for need creates negotiating leverage that in turn creates value.
Mayock was also one of the guys that rated Alex much higher than Rogers citing his accuracy and stating he was much more NFL ready than Rogers. Everyone misses on some but im surprised that so many people missed so badly on Rogers.
This draft talk is making my head spin!!! Some of the guys mentioned I’m familar with, but some of them I think to myself, “Who the BLEEP are you guys talking about? It’s like, “I like Fleener if he’s there, but alot of people are over looking Kip Conners, the point guard of the University of America”. Then the next guy is like, “I agree, but I like Shay Duey of the LSU Mud Dogs. He’s got big fore arms and wide feet and will fit nicely in our defensive scheme”. Then someone tosses salt in the kool-aid and says, “I like Chin-Chin Montgomery from West New Hampshire Community College, but it doesn’t matter, Alex Smith will never see week 3″. There’s about 50 different posters, thinking we’ll draft one player who is different from the next. Holy Shhznit guys …. I suppose I better start watching more college football.
This post reminds me of the scene in Grandma’s Boy where Donte says, “Wow, where do you get your weed from, Mr Cheezel?” And Cheezel turns around and says, “From you, Donte.”
There’s so many different players and different scenarios. Baalke and Harbaugh don’t even know who they’ll draft. When that’s the case, Chip Corners and Chi-Chi Montgomery are just pumped about the opportunity. And we’d love to have ‘em provided they don’t have a monkey who knows karate.
Chin Chin Montgomery a late rounder .
HAHA!! +1.5
Guap totally classic post ,thanks!
HAHA!! No probs!! Just tryin bring some levity to this crazy place!!
Chris Mortensen just predicted a 49 er superbowl victory!!!
Would have had one last year as well ,if a couple of players had done their part.
@Tim, who’s the two ? Wait at a minute i guess is A. Smith and A. Smith right !
I have read some of your recent comment. Don’t you ever get tired of all the BS on your comments?
How you indirectly criticize Alex, the way you maneuver around your statemnet, its obvious you can’t hide the truth, that you hate Alex Smith period.
Regardless what hes going accomplish in the future and whether he wins a SB with 49ers. You will always hate and criticize Alex no matter what..
49erman,
@Tim sometimes thinks that his very clever with his post on how he doesn’t mention alex ‘s name directly, but at the end of his comment hes pointing at AS no doubt..lol
Tim is an idiot.
when i do my 9er picks i dont go with players who i think they should pick but i try to predict who they will pick.
Old Coach, who do you think they WILL pick?
good luck!
Don’t sleep on Chin-Chin Montgomery.
You go man-teeheehee!
i think they might move up for fleener but the safe pick would be a guard. i havent done my draft research yet i just finished my baseball fantasy draft.
Should we bring in Tanard Jackson for depth at Safety?
Hey Grant have the 49ers voluntary team workouts started yet? If so which niners are usually there
Adam707, here you go.
http://www.49ers.com/news-and-events/article-2/Workouts-Resume-at-49ers-Headquarters/62664cd5-bb57-4ef8-8561-3df9c81de0fd
If Fleener makes it into the mid 20′s I’ll bet the farm that Indy trades up to grab him.
indy needs a quanity of quality players i think they will use all their choices to draft players
Okay I will try this.
1. Fleener, I like this pick due to his ability to play right away and should help with 3rd down and long and red zone problems.
2. We trade up and grab Amini Silatolu that would give us the best gaurds in football. He is an animal.
3. With our 60/61 pick If Crick is still there we get him.
4. Joe Adams with our third round pick. Has Ginns speed, ability to get open, stretch the field, better hands then Ginn and was colleges most dynamic returner last year. This is my sleeper in the draft. Who ever gets this man is going to be very happy.
Honorable Mentions:
Zeitler OG
Konz C, OG
Sanu WR
Martin RB
Let’s mock the top 5:
1) Jim Irsay had a few too many drinks and gave away the 1st pick in a Twitter contest which was won by Jon Arbuckle of Vancouver, Canada. Jon promptly drafted Andrew Luck to play for the B.C. Lions
2) In a surprise move the Redskins select Steve Jobs, Owner, Deceased. Said Bruce Allen, “Snyder has been a bust and we really need an better production at the owner position. We realize that Jobs is life-challenged but we feel he can be a significant upgrade.”
3) A trade! The Seahawks give up their 2nd and 3rd to swap places with the Vikings. They select Spencer Hagan, WR, Cal. Spencer only started 2 games for Cal but they were really good games.
4) The Cleveland Browns select … well who really cares? They’re the Browns.
5) Tampa Bay selects Morris Claibourne to replace Aqib “Stop Or My Mom Will Shoot” Talib. LaGarret Blount was excited about the pick: “I’m not the dumbest guy on the team anymore!”
Yeah yeah… I’m bored.
lol. especially #2 and #5.
Boredom can lead to good things.
>>Let’s mock
I see what you did there. Well done!
I found this article interesting.
http://www.csnbayarea.com/football-san-francisco-niners/niners-talk/Boone-expected-to-get-chance-to-compete-?blockID=686430&feedID=5936
The idea of kicking Davis inside to guard and putting Boone at RT is interesting.
msc, Did you read the article? They are considering moving Boone down to guard. There is no mention at all of Davis moving from tackle.
This makes a ton of sense if it works. It would allow them to stick with the plan of having Kilgore eventually move to center, and they can focus on other areas of need in the draft.
Maybe they knew back during the season that Snyder would be moving on, which is why they put the emphasis on getting the Boone deal done so early. Just another example of this front office being 3 steps ahead of the game.
Jack,
The article has Boone’s mentor suggesting that Davis be moved to RG and have Boone be the starting RT.
Sorry MidWest, I didn’t realize that the players’ trainers are now calling the shots down in Santa Clara.
*and Bentley makes no mention of Davis being moved anywhere*
Jack,
Relax. It’s just his opinion is all. I happen to like the idea, but just because I like it doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. But either idea is intriguing.
MidWest,
All good. Too passionate about this stuff I guess.
msc, sorry if my comment was too harsh. It was not intended as such.
Same here Jack. We may have different opinions at times, but we’re still passionate 49er fans. It’s much better than being a stupid Cowboy fan, right?
“Bentley said he believes the 49ers’ best option would be to move right tackle Anthony Davis to guard.”
2nd to last paragraph.
Saw that later msc. Sorry for jumping on you. Everyone makes a mistake once in a while. Lucky for me I should be covered for a while : )
Either way, if they have the best 5 out there and can do it without spending a draft pick that will help other areas of need.
+1.
I wasn’t upset in the least Jack. I’m never serious on the internet.
If Boone plugs in at RG I wonder who the swing tackle will be? Person I suppose or perhaps Kilgore could fill in the RG spot and allow Boone to kick out.
“If Boone plugs in at RG I wonder who the swing tackle will be? Person I suppose or perhaps Kilgore could fill in the RG spot and allow Boone to kick out.”
I think they would use Kilgore as the backup guard and center. Person would be the 2nd backup.
Alex can play guard if it’s the best thing for the team, but physically it’s not the ideal position for him,” Bentley said. “Good guards are easier to find than good tackles. I believe Alex is a very good tackle in the making.”
This is where it is suggested Jack.
Makes no mention of moving Davis anywhere. That is just his opinion that Boone would be a better tackle one day.
That’s what I mean Jack. But again, it’s no big deal.
A Boone-has really applied himself since being here -stayed out of trouble ,got in shape,is applying himself to his craft.I like the big lug!
He used to party so hard in college that I had doubts about him in the NFL. good for him though.
By the way ,do any of you guys remember MarcNJ49er or Franchise, ever see them post on other blogs.(There was a really cool African American guy too posted a photo with shortish afro looking down can’t remember his tag)All good guys,sorry they are gone.
Top, don’t remember them very well. Shootme and Gilroy Al have disappeared although they sometimes post at MM’s blog.
Thanks Hof,keep meaning to join MM’s group( really like him),don’t like the slick format much .
With Boone, Staley and Anthony Davis, the 49ers have three good OTs, which is relative depth compared to other teams. Lost in all of this is Montana’s Mike Person who played OT in college and made the roster as a late round draft choice indicating Solari believes Person can play.
If Kilgore starts at RG, Person and Boone would be the backups if the 49ers didn’t draft an interior lineman or acquire another one via free agency.
Because Boone is an OT, and Person played OT in college, the 49ers are fine with starting and backup OTs, but are short one backup interior linemen. That’s it. That ain’t a bad state of affairs. I think they look to the draft. They’ve already looked at Leonard and Deuce, and didn’t pull the trigger.
I think even with the short off season, and Kilgore coming from a smaller college, Kilgore could have started last year if necessary. I think Kilgore can start this year without much of a problem. The press will create stories and moronic sources will be cited between now and the draft for lack of something better to do, but regarding the 49er O line, all they need is a backup interior linemen in the draft who’s smart enough to play center in a pinch.
However….. if you want to play the “move guys on the O line around,” game, the real guy who should be dumped from the O line is Mike Iupati. Playing in space is not Iupati’s game. A guard in the WCO needs to be able to pull, trap and rotate cleanly. Iupati sucks at all of this. Sure, he can maul you in close quarters, but that’s it. For my money, I want to see Iupati lose some weight and get a lot more mobile.
If I was holding the keys to the zoo, I’d trade Iupati, draft Amini Silatolu in the second round – AND START Silatolu AT RG (He could channel Jesse Sapolu for inner strength and technique). That would mean our RG would be a rookie, and our LG would be a Kilgore, a second year player. Interesting to note, both guards would be the highest ranking guards at the combine in their respective years in the cone drils – which are drills like shuffle step and cone drills – making both guards the most athletic in their draft classes. And, again, if I had the keys to the zoo, my guards would be mobile and athletic as apposed to big brawlers. And before you go chastising me for my plan being, “too risky,” I have to admit, I have another motive. To me, it’s not a bad thing if someone gets by a young guard and breaks the quarterback’s neck. I’m hoping the 49ers draft Pee wee Herman in the 7th round to play guard next year. Can’t get me enough Rocky Bernard. But when Kaep or JJ starts, we’ll need to pull Pee Wee in favor of someone who knows what they’re doing. What’s the difference? The 49ers aren’t going to win the Super Bowl with Alex Smith as the quarterback. Never.
Here’s a true 49er fan folks. :-X
Right. One that hopes for the Niners QB to go down with a broken neck. A true fan.
The doctor will see you now!
The doctor would need to see his doctor after that visit.
Neal’s brother?!! lol
MWN-True That!
New dude sounds like old Jordy.
Where is Jordy anyway, I think we’ve found his soulmate.
Interesting theories until the neck breaking thing.
Yeah, yeah,yeahyeahyeah. My thoughts exactly. O_o
EightySixEleven, what are you, a fuBLEEPn savant or somethin’?! Nah, but all kidding aside … that is the best analysis I’ve read on this blog thus far!! And I’ve been around quite some time. Wait a minute?!? Jim?! Jim is that … naaaaah. Well done!!
I think Alex Smith improves this year and contributes to this offense scoring 28pts per game giving the San Francisco Forty Niners their 6th World Championship.
Razor/ Hof I raise a glass of the Red to that!
Hear hear! Top and Razor all arrows are up!!
**AHEM** I’ll drink to THAT!! Chris Mortensen share’s your sentiments at 1:58 minute mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wm0SfvqzeBU&feature=g-all-lik&context=G2d435a1FAAAAAAAAAAA
Sort of weird to hear the 49ers described as a rock solid organization after the last 10 years.
York and Baalke must have done some housecleaning we didn’t hear about in addition to axing Singletary. The place was a joke when Singletary was coach.
Also – Dilfer sure turned out to be a heck of an analyst didn’t he? I wonder how long before he’s doing color on televised games.
msc, it’s all about the Head Coach and the structure they bring. Even Eddie D struggled early on, because he didn’t have the right guy in charge. He hired Walsh, Walsh hired the right guys that fit his strong plan and the dynasty took off.
Jed struggled early on by choosing the wrong guy at first just like his uncle, and now has the right coach with a strong plan and it is starting to get that 1980′s feeling again.
Boy oh Boy keep drinking the kool Aid Smithers. He does not have the genes, the courage, the mental abilty. He is a one game wonder, then the following week, same old Alex. I hope they can find that guy.
Boy oh boy. Keep drinking that scorpion venom Neal.
Alex near 4000 yards and 25 total TD’s this year. While raising the 3rd down % to around 15-20th in the league
Adam707,
Those numbers could happen this year. Looking forward to the OTAs and the draft!
Some say Alex has reached his “ceiling” and i ask them why? Adding Moss, Manningham, Jacobs, and most likely a 1st round weapon, not to mention a whole off season to work with Smith should only get better
This is a bet I would take. Alex has never shown himself to be consistently accurate. He either is too cautious or doesnt trust himself to throw into the windows that other qb’s do. I actually think he is at his best when he’s playing catch up because its one of the few times you will see him try to make those throws and whats maddening is that he has shown the ability to make them in those situations. Maybe its because the defense has been lulled to sleep over the course of the game but I would like to see that attitude in him more consistently. His other issue is that he is not the most accurate qb his Deep balls tend to sail and his ball placement needs work hopefully this will change as his confidence grows but I cant remember to many times when an inaccurate qb suddenly started becoming accurate. However some of this could be due to poor footwork learned behind a poor Oline in his early years.
@John
My idea has been to pay the scoreboard operator at Candlestick and any visiting stadiums as well to display the Niners are behind all the time.
We could collect donations on this blog and send them to the scoreboard operators across the NFL. They are probably paid close to minimum wage I wager, and won’t be hard to pay off.
Then, AS will think he is behind, and we score over 70 a game.
Adam707,
Bet???
DS94everXev
Ha ha ha I love the scoreboard idea but it seems to be true everytime he gets behind he seems to loosen up and play better. I think he is too ceribral and overthinks things when he is ahead and forgets to just play ball.
“Alex has never shown himself to be consistently accurate.”
There’s no such thing as a “consistently accurate” QB. Go back and watch how many balls Stafford flubbed in the Detroit game. Maybe some day we’ll see an 80% comp rate guy if he’s really good and has reeeeeeeaaaaaalllly good receivers but I wouldn’t hold your breath.
Consistent accuracy argument is a red herring.
BTW: John, do you have relatives in far northern California?
@John
I personally think that the play calling and the coaching plays a larger role in it. When the team is down, the playcalling and coaching says to throw it. When they are up, the playcalling and coach are different.
The only constant in this is AS doing what the coaches want. It lead to a 13-3 record and an OT loss in the title game, so I’m fine with how it went down.
I will bet with you Jordan. I say 3850-4100 yards. 25 total TD’s 10-13 TO’s. 38-40% 3rd down conversion. 3 300 yard games. Do i sound crazy? This is assuming he starts all 16 games
I think Alex Smith learns he’s really left handed and gives up football entirely, disgraced to learn he could have done so much more for his fellow players.
Same old whine.
…so much so we need a whole cheese wheel around here these days.
I think Daniels’ cousin is too tall to play guard. Not to say he could not do it, just that he does not possess the ideal body type for the position.
Alex Smith won’t win a playoff game next year. Any bets?
What do you have in mind?
You can never write another positive thing about Smith, or I’ll never write another negative thing about him on the blogs. My word is my bond.
Done.
Hahahaha.
“My word is my bond.”
Where have we heard this before? Grant, is this Jordy in disguise?
So it’s the QB that wins or loses games, eh? If your fanciful scenarion comes true, that will put him right up there with Big Ben, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Stafford, Matt Ryan… All pretty good QBs who couldn’t win a playoff game this last season.
I don’t know how the hell you got to that conclusion, but good for you, brother. If it gets you to your happy place quicker, good for you….
Agree about Boone solid backup OT however-you guys see Walter Football’s latest mock thru 4rnds:(1)Fleener(still my #1);(2)B Quick-WR (I’m big on this guy!);(3)Casey Hayward-CB:(4)M Brewster -C(another guy I like)-not bad!
Top, looks good. GC has me thinking CF again but the 9ers may need to move up 5-8 spots to get him which would cost the 9ers a 3rd and 4th round pick this year. Is it worth the cost for a playmaker on offense? After the lack of receivers in the championship game, the answer is an astounding YES.
Ok i give up. 1st round- Fleener, then i say pick up Criner in the 2nd or 3rd (Depending where his stock is on draft day). He will take a year or so to develop but i think he will be a play maker. Anyone who has watched an AZ game will agree with me.
Did DSL get booted???!!!!!!
PBL,
Shhhhhhh, don’t wake him.
Pork,
DSL is a loser. You and him are the best of friends. You can relate.
DS knows a lot more about a lot more things than you ever will. Like what the word “mentor” means.
Ta-Ta.
Ah… it lives. Too bad.
You’re on the record as saying Trent Dilfer taught Alex Smith more about QB than Joe Montana taught Steve Young. Just remember how asinine that makes you, DSL…
… Miyagi…
Pork
Please exit. You have not use here. You don’t know English. You think you do. You don’t know football. You think you do. You don’t know manners. You think you do. You don’t know how to keep your word. You think you do.
Are you 23J by any chance?
PBL, you idiot! I blame you!
(now you know how Alex feels)
Just as much your fault Jack.
Maybe you will learn not to hit the reply button next time.
@Jack (& everybody else)
sorry. seriously. pandora’s box. oops.
The 49ers and Packers will both once again fight it out over the first and second seeds in the NFC Playoffs. Both the Niners and Packers have 13-3 schedules and teams, once again. Despite the Giants being the now Super Bowl champion, their team turns it on and off whenever they want. The Giants are also a great road team. In addition, both times the Giants won the Super Bowl, they got hot and won four games in a row, not three – knocking off great teams on the road.
The Saints could still compete, despite Parcels now bowing out. The Saints will find a decent one-year replacement for Sean Payton. But will the Saints be able to compete for Super Bowls? Will the offense be good enough without Sean Payton calling the plays and working with Drew Brees to get the right matchups? Will the loss of Meacham and Payton be too much to handle for even Brees in 2012?
The Lions, Eagles and Saints will be the NFC’s second tier in the playoffs, with the Seahawks challenging for rights to move into that second tier.
This leaves the 49ers probably hosting the Eagles, Giants or Lions in the second round of the playoffs. But this time, Alex Smith won’t be blessed with the five turnovers the Saints handed him in Smith’s first playoff game. The end result will be a quick 49er exit in the playoffs if Jim Harbaugh doesn’t change the quarterback. You’ll see.
86 11,
At least you don’t need to worry about being attacked by zombies because they only eat brains.
Jack Hammer – I’m a geneous.
86, No you are not. Super Stan is the GENIUS!!!
I’m the penultimate geneous.
No, that would be Claude…
No… that would be 8611, or AlbertEinstinkle ….. or Spitblood. They’re one in the same.
~ The Penultimate Geneous ~
Geneous. Sounds ghetto.
You can’t teach genius, Adam. It’s carried in your geneous.
I would like to hear that lecture ribico.
Also the one where somebody claims to be a fan of a team while hoping/betting on seeing a backup player play QB at some point.
Nothing says “loyalty” and “fan” than somebody who wants somebody to play so poorly they get benched and wants somebody to get hut.
Williams relative, you think?
WR Rishard Matthews to Niners?
http://nevadasagebrush.com/blog/2012/03/27/former-nevada-players-waiting-on-nfl%E2%80%99s-call/
I for one have not and will try to continue to not write about Alex on this blog, until he does something worth commenting about,or at least until the subject of the thread is about qb’s.But when I do comment it will be fair and truthful as usual (mho).Right now he is my qb and although I dont think he is a very good qb in the nfl,he is MY qb and when he steps on the field I cheer for him.
Now, what was the subject of this thread ?
Always good to cheer for whoever is on the field, even though old 11 scares me, harbaugh is no dummy. Getting pumped for the draft, Is Randle , a big wr, like Josh morgan? or more of a speedster, Mannigham signing surprised me as he is not a great blocker. Moss is not either. Like to see a good guard drop but kilgore could be the answer. I would also like to see a DT incase soppagoa goes else where or the “cowboy” gets gored!
Rebelscum – There’s a DE, Billy Winn, who plays for Boise State who I like a lot. Good motor. I agree we need to start creating some depth in the D line rotation, but we will be getting Turk back. And Ricky Jean Frank ‘n Bean should get more playing time. I wouldn’t use a first round pick on D line.
Josh Johnson will start at some point in 2012 during the regular season and the entire 49er fan base will wake up and pull the morphine drip that is Alex out of their collective back of their necks (matrix reference) and run naked through the hills with happiness they’ve been saved by Josh Johnson. 8 years of horrible quarterback play – You guys may be willing to stop talking about Alex, but I ain’t. Alex sucks, and the 49ers won’t be truly competing for Super Bowls until Alex Smith is gone.
Tim is a 49er employee. He’ll never say anything bad about the 49ers…. ever. When Singletary was the head coach, Tim loved the entire team and the direction it was headed. When Jed text whomever, “We’ll win the division,” Tim was out trumpeting the ’cause. He’s a Jed York mouthpiece. Whomever’s on the team, Tim loves. Tim will try to claim he’s “fair and objective,” but Tim is about as objective as Fox News. Tim might even be more of a Nazi.
You mean MSN don’t you??
No, I meant Fox. Fox denies the holocaust.
So, EightySixEleven = Spitblood
Why the multiple screen names?
When Maiocco was here, I was banned for excessive celebration. Didn’t think the name would fly.
@Spitblood:
Excessive celebration? Of what?
Everything. I was celebrating Mike Singletary, Jimmy Raye, Mike Johnson, Alex Smith, Scot McCloughan, Jed York…. It was one big party. I think I still have the lamp shade somewhere around here.
You mean Ahmadinejad don’t you??
I’m pretty sure when Ahmandinejad retires he’ll get a consulting job for Fox News.
“When Maiocco was here, I was banned for excessive celebration.”
Ah… starting to make sense now.
@Tim, You’re unbelievable, its another gimmicks of yours..Tobe honest with you Tim, I would love to believe you sometimes what you post , but the truth you tarnish your credibility with all the bull crap you say on the board.
Another draft philosophy not being kicked around….
I genuinely believe that Josh Johnson will at some point this season overtake Alex Smith because Johnson will not only protect the football, but he’ll score more points. That’s really what the quarterback’s job is – scoring more points. I know, I know… the Smith lovin’ homers will say it’s about winning games, and they’re right, but nobody in their right mind is going to tell me that Alex Smith won games last year for the 49ers. Go watch the Lions game. Alex Smith was terrible all game long, then he threw a simple slant pattern that Smith lovers creamed their panties over. But anyway, I’m already getting sidetracked.
Let’s just say for argument sake that I’m right. Let’s say Harbaugh brings in Josh Johnson and David Akers is no longer a Fantasy Football legend. Josh goes out and hits receivers in stride, they take it to the house (the hizzy for the younger generation), the offense has more of a quick strike capability, and the 49ers start doing what they are capable of doing on offense – hangin’ 30 on a team by half and demoralizing them. What does that do to the defense? Well, it makes them rush the passer more. It makes guys like McDonald, Justin, Aldon, Ricky and Will a little more tired in the 4th quarter because they’re rushing the passer all the time.
So if Harbaugh dumps Smith this season, like I think he will when Alex starts sailing balls over receivers’ heads, missing deep passes, taking sack after sack while the media spins it as “good decision making,” the defense is going to need to be deeper at pass rusher. Aldon, Justin, Ray, Brooks and others are all studs. And the 49ers also have Dobbs and Ian Williams. But one more project D linemen to just rush the passer in games when it’s certain the 49ers are going to be up big with JJ at the helm wouldn’t be a bad strategy. Maybe a later round draft pick pass rusher who makes the roster, doesn’t suit up unless it’s against teams like the Rams. I like Billy Winn from Boise State. He’s not a late rounder, but he’d do. He reminds me of Dana Stubblefield. Only bad side I see in Winn is that he’s on the ground a little too much for my liking. One of the reasons that Baalke drafted Aldon was because Aldon rarely got knocked to the ground.
Spit, as much as you slam TIM, you are his blood brother – both of you are nothing but sports fans cliches. The BEST guy on the team is the backup QB. HE will raise his butt from the pine and lead the team to promised land.
You hear it year after year after year…. *yawn*
Ribico – as much as a I “slam Tim?” I haven’t thought of Tim for a few years. Best years of my life. Last year I wasn’t banging the backup qb drum. When Troy Smith and David Carr were here, I wasn’t calling for them. Same with Shaun Hill. This year is different. You’ll see. Alex Smith is really left handed. He just doesn’t know it yet.
Right. Except for when you liken him to a Nazi a couple of posts above.
I have no idea if you were calling for Troy, Carr or Hill. But now you are carreening the JJ bandwagon down Lombard Street and he’s a guy who’s done *even less* than those aforementioned QBs. You fit the cliche perfectly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-AAP6-FAJU
Look at this run at 1:40. Sure, it’s preseason against the second team, but can Alex do that? No chance.
Josh Johnson also was the MVP of the East West Shrine game. Alex Smith couldn’t beat out Troy Smith. I smell quarterback controversy.
And oh yeah, the Dolphins didn’t even give Smith an offer. I wonder why? The Miami Dolphins didn’t even want Alex Smith. Smith wanted to be the 49ers’ plan B option. Pathetic. Let’s start a winner at qb for once.
LMAO… Yeah, sure, Ribico – Josh Johnson isn’t as good as Troy Smith, David Carr or Shaun Hill. LMAO. Troy is selling pencils – outta the NFL. You’re already a joke. I mean, at least hold serve for the first game. Josh Johnson is the best quarterback we’ve had in SF since Jeff Garcia.
Shrine MVP. NFL career highlights consist of one pre-season game. Yeah… he’s the guy alright.
So you argument is Alex didn’t get any free-agent nibbles. Yet your hero couldn’t even get off the bench behind that other stellar Bucs QB, Freeman. A winner? Of what, exactly?
You “start the backup!!!!!!” guys crack me up.
Walsh used to talk about quarterback “intangibles.”
Mobility – JJ
Quick Release – JJ
Familiarity with the coach – JJ
Deep Ball – JJ
Ability to throw it away – Alex
Ability to take a sack – Alex
If you put those last two together, that’s what some are calling “decision making.” I call it making the kicker a fantasy football legend.
JJ starting? Wow.
And somehow Johnson impressed his NFL coaches (you know, the ones who work with him day in/day out as opposed to internet experts viewing pre-season clips on Youtube) with all those intangibles. Impressed them so much he’s been their go to guy, their starting QB.
Maybe Harbaugh can reclaim the kid from the junkpile, I hope so. The better the depth, the better our team will be. But the level of Alex hate is pretty amazing to annoint a nobody over a 14-4 QB.
Some of these folks are irrational.
I’m gonna make a shortcut key to paste Joe Montana’s comments in here every time someone brings up 3rd downs from here on out. A lot of these knuckleheads won’t even look at stuff like that – they just KNOW.
I personally can’t stand all the back and forth drama with the Smithers and the Haters but sometimes the commentary (when I’m bored and I actually read it) from these extremists is hilarious!
Good entertainment I guess?
Actually, Ribico, yeah, he did get interest from his past coaches. Thanks for illuminating that fact for me. You’re a pal. JJ did impress his Bucs coaches. Guess where some of them went after they were fired? Washington. Guess the two teams who were interested in JJ? That’s right – Washington and the 49ers. Two coaches JJ had history with. But why did JJ chose the 49ers instead of Washington? Hmmm… that’s a tough one….. let me think…. hmmmm…… Let’s see, one has RGIII or Luck, the other has Alex Smith. I’m no genius, but I’m thinkin’ the 49er might present JJ with a better starting option. Particularly when Alex Smith’s offense goes in the tank for 3 quarters with balls flying into the stands and sidelines while Smith lovers call it, “Good decision making.”
@Adam
What good will that do?
You copy/pasted the JM link where he talks about how much time it takes to learn an offense and how we need to be patient with AS to really grasp it, along with how JM saw on film that AS had nowhere to go with the ball if his primary target wasn’t open for so many years, and what did that do?
The haters, who claim to worship at the throne of JM, simply ignored it completely. The smithers said “Ah-ha!” But nobody bothered to listen to the Almighty one himself say those things.
Another guy wanting a 3rd string level QB to start over Smith. Just what the board needed.
>>Another guy wanting a 3rd string level QB to start over Smith. Just what the board needed
Except for the Candlestick dunces calling “we want Carr”, at least most of the “start the backup guy” guys want the second stringer. Oh well, there has to be one in every crowd.
Spit,
switch to another subject man. There is a core group of Smith cultists here that blindly defend.
Example. Nothing wrong with your post. You are correct, JJ got praise from his coaches. He had to opportunities both with ex coaches. He chose the better coach and the better team to come to. Also chose the team with the lesser competition at QB.
What you get back are remarks you’d get from five year olds defending the fact that teletubbies is better than barnie……
This group goes on faith the defenders. For them to be right, something that has never happened before has got to happen. Smith has got to leave the bottom ranks in terms of most offensive production categories.
For the critics, we can point to year to year historical data. Lack of production. Since they don’t have successful data to fall back on, they attack generally, or they put down the competition. Quite comical.
Spit:
I AM fair and balanced ! :) And neither I or fox news or any rational person would ever deny the holocaust. What an absurd thing to allege(sounds like a charge made by someone rather unbalanced indeed !).Now,can you stop attacking other fans and news networks and whatever moves long enough to write something about the Niners that doesn’t include #11 ? We all know the good and the bad about #11 ,so rehashing all the various points on that subject seems rather useless,until #11 actually does something new to talk about.Let’s see if you can rationally talk about the entire 53 and the staff and owner and the new stadium etc etc etc etc,without hate,that would be enjoyable !
@bay:
Keep saying it. It might come true one day.
The best QB will be starting the season. You say it will be Josh Johnson. I say it will be Alex Smith. Let it play out. No need to beat a dead horse.
Don’t put razors in my mouth. I say Josh Johnson starts for the 49ers sometime during the regular season.
Oh, so you agree the best QB will start the season? Then your franchise knight in shining armor Josh Johnson will come in mid season to save the season and lead us to the promise land.
Your name indicates you might have razors in your mouth afterall “spit blood”.
These are all nice attempts at twisting words, but the reality is that JJ will need a little time to get to know his offensive teammates – to build some chemistry and thoroughly learn his playbook. He’ll need to grow into the position. JJ’s fair superior to Alex. I think week 6 is about right. Depends on the schedule. I’ve secretly created a new bounty scandal by setting up a pay pal account for a Rocky Bernard type hit. Harris Barton was controlling the account, so there was no real monetary motivation last year. This year, however, I have new management and the money is pouring in. There’s some legit incentive for a Rocky Bernard type hit. By week six, it should fair outweigh the league fines. And, I’m off shore so neener neener.
You are aware that Johnson threw 2 Int’s and only 1 TD last year, aren’t you? In 9 games played.
And the playmakers at WR for the Niners last year was the worse by far of any playoff team. How will Johnson be SOOO much better?
err,
Let’s say 2 Int’s in 36 attempts in 9 games.
Talk about a HC not trusting his QB to throw the ball! I betcha you are one of those who thinks JH does not trust AS to throw the ball.
Except in that Detroit game on 4th down. And that whole last drive against NO was AS throwing the ball. And the drive before that was AS running it in from 27 or so yards out to score the go-ahead TD which our defense immediately lost.
I saw two Mocks today that had OG Silatolu moving up into the 1st Round; one had the 49ers taking him at #30, another had him going even higher. I also saw the second mock that had SF taking DT Reyes from UConn at #30.
Its all just speculation, but interesting twists. Another had Fleener going to Chicago at #19.
I noted yesterday that when Kiper & McShay talk, they had some guys like Fleener and Hill dropping into the top of the 2nd Round. PFW had some different takes on player values too, with S.Hill rated kinda low.
Last year I was guessing that unless Peterson dropped to us that SF would take Aldon or Quinn. I’d been leaning towards Quinn early but I read in the last couple of weeks before the draft that SF liked Smith.
This year I’ve got much less feel for it. Fleener-Hill-Randle-Wright-Silatolu-Kunz-Zeitler(?)OG from Wisc-stud DL-rush LB. Any of those at #30, but a bit less likely for OL.
McShay and Kiper are too into themselves to actually realize that teams are more need based and will definitely reach for that need. They think everyone should go off their boards. Lol. In addition, sometimes they zag for publicity. Fleener is a hot topic nationwide. Nobody looks at McShay’s mock drafts after the draft (because they take ‘em down). Dropping a guy or raising him makes for more hits.
In my opinion, the best guy out there right now evaluating college players in the draft is Mike Mayock.
In addition, you don’t draft an interior lineman in the first round – ever. Silatolu would be great at the end of the second round, but in the first? No thank you. Fleener and Doug Martin will go earlier than most mock drafts anticipate because they’re unique. Doug Martin runs single back, outta the pistol. Fleener is Dallas Clark, and Dallas Clark doesn’t come around often. I thought the 49ers were going to draft Quinn if they went DE / OLB, and hated Aldon …. until I saw him play. Kudos to Baalke. I was pissed because I wanted Jake Locker…. or Andy Dalton. Hope Kaep proves to be as good as Dalton.
I know Spit tees off a lot of guys,check his Tag photo,deviltrolldolljokster,into polemics at times ,but pretty funny.
@ Grant…
Delano Howell — prospects?
PBL, He is not rated as someone who will be drafted. He should be at the pro day in Santa Clara next week. Maybe a Undrafted Free Agent pick up?
http://www.csnbayarea.com/football-san-francisco-niners/niners-talk/49ers-local-pro-day-set-for-next-Wednesd?blockID=686568&feedID=5936
I’m ready for draft day. My heads spinning with all the scenarios.
Here’s the best scenario for you, Alex lover. If Alex is the quarterback all next year, and he actually plays through his three year deal (he won’t)… the 49ers should just draft 7 running backs in 2012 – one in each round. That’s it. 7 running back. Your head’s not swimming anymore, right? Don’t throw the ball once. Try your best to beat 11 in the box. Then call on Akers, Lee and our defense to take interceptions back to the house. Now go get some tacos and shrug it off.
“…the 49ers should just draft 7 running backs in 2012″
I think you ignorantly backed right in to something there. The draft is loaded with RB talent at all levels and according to the experts there are only a few teams that still “gound-and-pound” and we’re one of them. Opposing defenses aren’t geared up for it much.
Not many will be looking for RBs.
7? Not so much. But we could surely get a good one (or five :P) if we wanted one.
You are a silly individual.
Yeah
Because our RB’s lost that title game. Gee.
Get a clue man. The WR’s stank big time. If we draft 7 of anything, it should be WR. Then let them all go at it in TC like rabid dogs. The best 2 start. The next best 3 stay on the team. The rest are dumped. No matter how much salary each are due, or their big name titles.
DS9 – The 49ers drafting wide receivers for Alex Smith is like giving Ray Charles Lasik surgery, Warren Saap a bag to hold his money in, Candlestick a face lift, Rupert Murdock a harp to play in heaven, or Nate Davis a Mensa membership. Now, I still think they should use a first on a receiver, and maybe draft another one late in the draft, but only for JJ and Kaep.
“The 49ers drafting wide receivers for Alex Smith is like giving Ray Charles Lasik surgery”
LMAO!!! Whether you agree or not, that is a pretty good line right there!
@spitblood
So, when your big hero becomes starting QB, he has the same sucky WR’s who the Niners had last year?
Way to give your guy the best chance possible. And Ray Charles makes better music than you do I’d wager. Kinda like how AS can win more games than Johnson could with last years Niners team.
Or are you saying the Niners should not let AS get the chance to play with decent players?
Either way, it isn’t happening. Enjoy your dream scenario on the blog. It is the only place it will ever come to fruition. Niners drafting a WR only to not allow AS to play with him. That is original.
@Jack
For a neutral observer you do find yourself leaning a lot more in one direction than the other.
DS9 – I’d love to see the 49ers draft Alshon Jeffery in the first round and Jeffrey start immediately. I’d love that regardless who the qb is. The 49ers haven’t had a legit number one receiver since TO. And a first round wr receiver also has the added benefit of further removing all the Alexcuses. Moss and Manningham are huge upgrades over Edwards and Morgan regardless if Smith lovers want to downplay their upgrade (wait, what?) The O line has more consistency. The coaches all have more consistency. The Alexcuses are gone.
DS, “For a neutral observer you do find yourself leaning a lot more in one direction than the other.”
I went to the chiropractor this morning and he told me my left leg was a little shorter than my right, so I guess I have been leaning in that direction more than the other. Luckily he fixed that during the appointment.
Thanks for asking….
Good to hear Jack!
Maybe you won’t be so grumpy now.
De Plane De Plane!!!!
With one leg shorter than the other now, should we change your first name to Eileen?
Great reading comprehension Adam…
Actually… to get away from the typical Alex Smith nonsense, let’s try this:
Madieu Williams signed with the Redskins. What are we doing at Safety? Any guesses?
Tanard Jackson
I said it before, and I’ll say it again… if the 49ers draft a safety high, Dashon Goldson should holdout. Williams and Reggie Smith couldn’t play. They were terrible. My liver plays better defense. Go watch any big play last year against our defense and Reggie Smith was somewhere in the background. I could see the 49ers moving either Cox or Holcomb to safety. Cox especially (don’t get your hopes up, Tim).
@Spitbllod:
I think you have it backwards.
Goldson’s leverage goes up after the draft if the 49ers don’t draft a quality safety because the the team won’t have an adequate replacement for him. If he is going to make a power play, those would be the circumstances giving him the most leverage.
If the 49ers draft a safety high, they won’t care nearly as much if Goldson refuses to sign his tender. They’ll go with the rookie.
For that reason, prior to the draft, the 49ers will have to assess the risk of Goldson refusing to sign the tender. If they think he will try a power play, then they are more likely to look for a safety early.
*because the team won’t have an adequate replacement
Claude Balls – you could make the case that Goldson’s leverage goes up if Harbaalke doesn’t draft a safety high, but if they don’t, in my opinion, that signifies that Goldson is still in the plans the following year. If they draft a safety in rounds 4-7, he’s only a project.
If the 49ers use a high draft pick on a safety, to me it means the 49ers only intend to use Goldson’s services for one year (this year that he’s franchised). Goldson then would have the most leverage holding out this year because even a first round safety would make mistakes and probably not play at the high level Goldson plays at. This could jeopardize a 49er Super Bowl run. If the 49ers use a 1-3 round draft choice on a safety, that shows the 49ers’ intent of not signing Goldson to a long term deal. Goldson would then subject himself to a potential career ending injury for roughly 7 million when there was much more on the table if he got a long term offer from another team, with a lot more guaranteed money.
Someone mentioned that franchise tag players never do well holding out. In Goldson’s case, I think he could force the 49ers to sign him to a long term deal – especially with the 49ers clearly, right now, showing with all the new signings that they believe they can make a legit Super Bowl run.
Goldson holding out would create 7 million of dead cap room when the 49ers clearly want to spend every penny – and the safety position wouldn’t be as strong.
Goldson fired his douche agent whose name escapes me… same agent Gore has. Drew RosenRosen. That’s it. Goldson hired an agent who supposedly works well with the 49ers. If the 49ers don’t draft a safety high, Goldson should report and play nice – hoping for a long-term deal. If they draft a safety high, the handwriting is on the wall and Goldson should holdout.
@Spitblood:
We’ll have to agree to disagree. I think Goldson’s leverage goes down if the 49ers have an adequate replacement on the roster and goes up if they don’t. Clearly, a 1st or 2nd round safety is more likely to be an adequate replacement than a developmental pick.
If Goldson cannot be replaced this year by any rookie (your position as I read your comments) and the 49ers believe that his absence would jeopardize a Super Bowl run, then Goldson’s leverage remains the same whether or not the 49ers spend an early pick on a safety.
Also, sorry for misspelling your name in my prior comment.
Claude -
I just think the 49ers’ draft shows their hand. If they draft a safety high, Goldson is too expensive and they plan on moving in another direction. If they draft a safety in the later rounds, the 49ers hope Goldson remains. If the latter is the case, why aggravate the situation with a holdout? If I’m Goldson, and the 49ers don’t draft a safety in rounds 1-3, I don’t holdout regardless if I haven’t yet reached an agreement – in hopes of creating “good faith.” Take a page from the Alex Smith book. But if a safety is drafted high, it’s on. It’s war. I’d hold the hopes of a Super Bowl for ransom, especially the way the 49er organization treated him last off season. That’s just my two cents.
@Spitblood:
I agree that spending a high pick on a safety would suggest that the 49ers don’t believe they can sign Goldson to a long term deal. That doesn’t mean it’s because they do not want to sign him, however. It could be that Goldson has made an unreasonable contract demand and refuses to budge.
Also, I don’t think the 49ers mistreated Goldson last year. They made a reasonable offer – 5 years/$25 million – after Goldson turned in a less-than-stellar performance in 2010, and he rejected it. The 49ers had no obligation to keep that offer on the table while Goldson shopped himself to other teams. When other teams decline to offer him big money, the 49ers welcomed him back and were willing to pay him more than anyone else offered.
What was wrong with that?
The 49ers will use the draft and/or low level FA to fill out the roster at safety/ST.
@Adam
I am hoping Spillman can learn to play safety. He is a much better open field tackler than Goldson, and he has a lot more speed. If he can learn all the nuances of the safety position this year, I am all for dropping DG (who I still angry at for knocking out TB whose guy was the one who caught that 4th quarter TD after he was out of the game) who looks to me like A. Franklin. Looking for a big payday after one good season.
In limited time last year, I saw him make two great plays. One in Baltimore. Where he got to the edge before the Raven RB could and he took down the big guy right there on the spot. Preserving our no rushing TD allowed streak another day.
The other was easy to miss. The last play of the NO game. Brees threw it to his WR on the opposite side of the field, and Spillman was the only defender in the area code. Spillman makes a sure tackle never giving the WR a chance to do anything with the ball, and the Niners won. That WR I think was Colston. A WR who many here wanted to sign. And Spillman took him down like nothing.
That would make Colston and the Raven RB (Ray Rice I believe), two of the best guys playing in their positions today who Spillman took down like nothing.
Add to that his speed (he can keep up with any WR to help double team them) and an ability to read defenses (DG really sucked at this) and Spillman could be the starter in 2013.
Spillman did make an awesome hit on (I think) Ray Rice in the Ravens’ game to prevent a touchdown, but if Spillman couldn’t beat out Reggie Smith or Williams last year, I’m betting that dog don’t hunt.
@spitblood
I don’t know how much time Spillman has really had practicing the safety position. They did pick up another good gunner after signing Spillman to a 3 year deal.
I bet most of his time was spent on ST practice time. Reggie Smith and Williams, not so much.
I have no idea really if Spillman has the intangibles to play the S position. But, he can do things that no other Niner safety can. If he learns the nuances, he can be Pro-Bowl (or worthy) every year.
Keep in mind that I am still mad at DG for those two hits that prevented Int’s in the title game. Had he just let up on those two plays, the Niners win be a healthy margin I think and go on to beat NE. And keep their best player in the secondary that day in TB who was awesome that game.
Yeah, but Reggie and Williams played Special Teams, too.
DS,
I was commenting under the assumption that is was a given that the 49ers have confidence in Spillman’s ability to be more than an ace ST’s player.
@ex
Given the order of events (If I recall them correctly):
1. Sign Spillman to 3 year deal
2. Sign a new “ace” gunner.
If they weren’t interested in Spillman as something else, I would think they wouldn’t sign the new guy to replace the best “gunner” in the NFL last year.
Who is the new ace gunner you speak of?
Mobility – JJ
Quick Release – JJ
Familiarity with the coach – JJ
Deep Ball – JJ
Spit, welcome back!
Based on JJ’s traits you list above and your high opinion of his upside, why not trade him for *two* 1st round picks? There are teams other than Indy and Wash looking for a QB – at least 5 teams! Oh that’s right, they had the opportunity to sign JJ for a pittance before the 9ers in FA and they passed. Hmm.
JJ needs to win the competition over CK for 1st backup, then we can address if he can unseat the starting QB. He has a long way to go…
Easy answer. His contract was up. You aren’t going to franchise tag him.
Why didn’t TB trade him like philly did KK? He’s better than KK right?
You forgot to address why no other team was interested in him.
Spit,
don’t waste your time with Hofer. He positions himself as a 49er fan. He should be happy about the wealth of talent we have in CK and JJ to help push Alex to play better or to move over.
Hofer will always give backhanded compliments to any player that threatens his beloved #11. We all think he is loosely tied to Smith through friends or family. He covers for him that much…..
I’m all for competition, and hopefully CK is up for the challenge after a complete offseason, but JJ isn’t even a lock to make the team at this point. He was signed for peanuts with no guaranteed money and will have to beat out Tolzien convincingly to make the team. This idea that the 9ers brought him in to be a starter is amusing in it’s ignorance.
My concern isn’t whether or not JJ can beat out Tolzien. Tolz has no arm. He’s a play maker. Good feet, smart. But I’ve watched him throw. He has an unorthodox delivery using ever bit of his body in attempts to get more mustard on the ball.
Won’t work IMO. My concern with JJ is size. I don’t think he can take the pounding over 16 games. I give Smith a lot of credit. He may not be a very good QB, but he’s a tough son of a gun. CK won’t have toughness issues either. Look for CK to get the nod when the time comes….
“don’t waste your time with Hofer.”
Bay,
I know you don’t like facts since I’m the first one to present them to you here several years ago when you were spewing hyperbole and negativity. Looks as though AS is still here.
Interesting that you said just a few months ago that I was the most balanced AS supporter of the bunch and now I’m threatened by your comments regarding the starting QB? Should I find your comment in the comment in the archives?
Many here (Claude) have figured out what you and Jordo haven’t, that most of our support for AS is in response to your negativity and all out blame pointed to one player. Like I’ve said here several times, AS doesn’t walk on water but he isn’t drowning either.
With the additional talent on offense, AS will be better this year. Let it play out…
Goldmember has no leverage. If he wants to be a part of the best defense in the NFL he’ll sign. He’s overrated. He’s good but he is no Ed Reed. He better not make the same mistake he made last year when he over valued himself and ended up humbling himself before Mr. Baalke.
He’s overrated? Did you watch the Saints’ game? Lol. Dashon Goldson is the next Ed Reed. No Goldson due to a holdout, and the 49ers’ chances of making a Super Bowl run are severely limited.
Ha, if he’s so fockin good why did he come crawling back after all his supposed lovers of his Ed Reed like talent spurned him?
Mr. Whitner made him look better than he really is. Ask the other 31 teams.
@razor
I got into that debate with jack hammer. I am all on your side with this one. DG sucked in 2010. Nobody wanted him. He comes back and has Whitner to call the plays and do all the pre-snap stuff and does well.
DG without Whitner (or Whitner like) mate playing at safety is the DG of 2010. Really, really bad.
crickets?
Goldson is a pro bowler, played huge in the playoffs with big hits and INTS (ask T Brown), and the 49ers front office franchised him, which is an indication they believe he’s one of the best or they wouldn’t pay him like one.
Spit,
You’re offering a play that probably cost the 49ers a trip to the SB as proof of DG’s hitting ability? Come on, you must know better than that.
That’s amusing.
He misses a lot of angle tackles. If he wasn’t looking to be the hero, the 9ers would have had at least two INTs in the championship game. He came in late and knocked the ball lose from his cb teammates. He does hit hard, but sometimes forgets to wrap up thus allowing for additional yards after the hit. He fits this defense well but the 9ers won’t overpay.
That’s because he plays selfish. And Godfather Fangio does not like that.
I think Goldson can be really good if he starts to play smarter. He trys to go for the big hit or Int. too much and gets burned because of it. He does a lot of good things, so if he can learn when to gamble, he’ll be one of the best FS’ in the league.
Razor, totally agree and well said!
*Meant*
Rocket, I agree and well said!
While you guys debate the finer points of all things Goldson, does anyone have any information on possible contract talks between the 49ers and Goldson’s agent?
Have there been any such talks? What is Goldson asking for? What are the 49ers offering?
Claude,
I haven’t heard anything on how talks are progressing, but it is interesting that DG dumped Rosenhaus for an agent that has a good relationship with the 49ers.
Yes.
Good questions for Grant to dive into for awhile. Something that is completely non-AS related.
I find it interesting that all the Pro Smith crowd can find so many faults with their Pro Bowl safety. Hmmmmm….
I just point out what I see when I watch him play.
Pro Bowl Safety. One of the top 3 FS’s in the league in 2011. I will take the opinions of the coaches and players who voted him in…
“that all the Pro Smith crowd”
Jack, why do you start drama when there is none? Stating opinions on 53 players is what everyone here does correct!! So it is *your* opinion that it is OK to diss AS but not anyone else on the team? Every player has strengths and weaknesses. Again don’t act like you are on high ground here. Ridiculous that you wasted a comment with that thought process. Jeez.
Goldson is one of the best safeties in the league right now. Could be the next Ed Reed. If the 49ers didn’t think he wasn’t one of the best, they wouldn’t have franchised him, paying top money for the position.
They offered him 5mil for 5 years in 2010? He comes back to play a year for 2mil? Dumb. Now he wants Ed Reed money? Dumb. See Antrel Rolle. Overated and over payed. 5 years 37million. I’d be okay paying him 6 million a year with incentives to make more. If not let him go to the many suitors he has and he better pray he has a guy like Mr. Whitner next to him.
@Jack:
I cannot tell if they really think Goldson is subpar or if they merely are reacting to Spitblood’s over-the-top promotion of Goldson.
They are clearly listening…
Claude, DG is a good player but needs to play smarter as Rocket suggests. It’s interesting how Jack tells everyone to *stay on point* regarding the blog article yet he brings AS into the DG comments. lol
All arrows up Hofer!!! ; )
Claude, I agree with Spit that in 2011 Goldson was a top level safety in the league. The coaches and players would not have voted them in otherwise.
Hofer, Goldson was a Pro Bowler in 2012. Does he have room to improve? Sure no player is perfect. You have no trouble pointing out the areas that Goldson can improve on, yet when that same question is posed to you regarding Alex Smith, SILENCE. Hmmmm….
@Jack:
Yes, but the suggestion that Goldson is the next Ed Reed is a tad premature.
@Claude, Fully agree on that point.
Jack, the point is we were discussing DG’s strengths and weaknesses *not* the starting QB. Correct?
Hofer, It doesn’t matter who we are discussing. You have never responded to areas that Smith can improve on. Guess in your eyes he is perfect.
1 Pro Bowl seson Jack out of what 4 or 5? And a 2010 season so bad, nobody even tried to get him as a backup.
The biggest change. DW and a new DC. I think the credit goes to them first. You make it seem like DG is the new TP from Pitt. He’s not. Never will be.
All arrows up DS!!! ; )
I agree DS. Whitner and Fangio played a big role in Goldson’s improvement in 2011. He was still a Pro Bowler, and I will chose to listen to the opinions of the Head Coaches and players that voted him in over a guy who thinks CJ Spillman is better…
Agreed!
Only you, the master debater can do that Jack.
Opening up your paragraph saying
“I agree DS.”
Then ending it saying that I wrote something that is completely not true at all. Read my posts again in regards to Spillman and DG. And keep reading it until you have a different conclusion. Spillman has skills DG does not. He is a better open field tackler and is way faster. Those are pluses. in a pass happy league. Se also plays ST, so he likes to hit.
I also said I have no idea if he knows/has the intangibles to play as a starting safety. And neither do you Jack.
Check that. Debater is not accurate. Politician is. Debaters actually use facts. Politicians make them up and just repeat them a 1000x thinking that makes it fact.
P.S. It doesn’t. Just makes them look really stupid to those in the know.
“You think you know. But you don’t. And you never will.” – Jim Mora
Awesome DS! Arrows up!!! ; )
Great!
Now if you repeat your pattern, you will post again in just over an hour and tell me that you agree with me but you don’t.
goldson will hold out because all franchise tags hold out. its the only leverage they have. the franchise tag gives them no guaranteed money if they are injured they can be cut without compensation as soon as they pass a physical. so unless the niners come up with a satisfactory multi yr deal there will be no goldson untill the end of camp at the earliest
Not all franchise tags hold out. If he’s afraid of the franchise tag then he needs to quit over valuing himself, compromise and sign the focking contract. Then take out Mr. Whitner for steak smothered in mushrooms and onions with a bottle Clos D’Ambonnay 1996.
CCulliver could play that role and at 6 foot 200lbs, has the size. More teams pass now and having a good coverage safety is not a bad thing. They would still need to address nickel and dime package coverage guys (reserves). DG will be here – why would he want to miss out on a SB year that could pay him big bucks by some safety starved team down the road!
Culliver isn’t going to safety. A good corner is more valuable. It’s the same with the Anthony Davis to guard question. You put the player at the position most valued if he can do it well – especially if there isn’t depth. Culliver is a corner, Davis is a tackle. Next!
@old coach:
Actually, once the player signs his franchise tender, the entire salary for that year becomes guaranteed.
didnt know that but still no signing bonus money
@razor when you say 31 teams passed on goldson you are talking last yr. why would the 9ers franchise tag him if there was’nt a market for him this yr. it would be plain stupid of baalke to franchise a player with no value on the open market and i do not think baalke is stupid
There was not another player to franchise on the team. History with the player. Mr. Baalke placed a value on the player in 2010. Goldson refused, tested the waters and no one bit. Comes back beside Mr. Whitner and the tutalage of the Godfather and has a pro bowl year. I believe he deserves to be rewarded, but c’mon man he is not worth more than 6 million a year.
So because they had one (a franchise tag) they had to use the poison pill? Good logic.
Take the razors out of your mouth.They applied the franchise tag because it made the most sense for the team. They signed the highest priority piece of the defense Mr. Brooks.
They were also able to afford the franchise tag because in their opinion, Goldson’s play was consistent with the top five or seven safeties in the game. If the 49ers draft a safety high this year, for one it will be for “NEED,” but two it will tell Goldson they believe they can develop a safety for a much cheaper price. They had plenty of money to resign Goldson to a deal for around 30 million for five years, which would have upped the original offer tabled a year ago before the strike, and is probably what Goldson would have gotten on the open market this year. They decided, instead, to sign Manningham, Jacobs, Josh Johnson, give Smith more money and resign most of their own. It may leave the 49ers vulnerable to a Goldson holdout. We’ll see. I can’t say that I would have done things any differently …. actually, yeah. I would have. I wouldn’t have re-signed Alex Smith, and I would have paid Goldson 6.5 million a year with Smith’s salary. My way you get a solid safety for five more years, with Harbaugh coaching Kaep and Johnson … seeing if one of them could win a Super Bowl. Baalke’s way, you risk a Goldson holdout and relegate yourself to playoff purgatory with Alex Smith as your playoff quarterback. Opps. Super Bowl winning qbs play great for three or four games. Not get lucky for one when Gregg Williams goes single coverage…. then gets fired the next day.
its not about the money its about the guaranteed money and his health
Jordan what you like to bet on exactly
I see your wanting to bet people. I’m relatively new to here so i dont know if you would want to bet me. I am one who thinks Alex will increase all statistical categories this year.
miaocco just wrote that he thinks the 9ers are good enough not to draft for need this yr but the best player available regardless of position. boy if thats true we can all throw our mock drafts away
That works for only so long and that is why teams successful teams like N.E. have grown old and porous on defense. They waited 1-2 years too long to draft for replacements.
@Hofer:
Sorry, but I strongly disagree. The consistently good teams (think Steelers, Giants, Packers under Thompson) draft for value over need. New England’s problem is that Belichick is not a particularly strong talent evaluator, or rather, that he has not drafted particularly well.
Claude,
You can disagree. My point is looking at the top teams that fell from that plateau including our storied 9ers, the defense became poor by draft BPAs. Don’t get me wrong, there is a time and a place for BPA but clearly the 9ers have age issues on the DL and at RB. They wait too long it may come back to bit them. TBD.
I think the Niners like their depth at DL and RB for ’12, so I don’t think it’s the year to spend a first rounder on either position unless you think Justin Smith or Frank Gore will break down this season.
*bite* them
Claude – You wrote: “The consistently good teams draft for value over need.”
This simply is not true.
GC, the question is how long can they play at a high level before age or injury causes a huge drop off? I saw the 9ers of the 90′s grow old by drafting the BPA and I was not happy. They also forgot the BW mantra of letting players go a year or two before they are no value. Should we regress by holding players too long? There’s no right or wrong just saying.
I think Justin Smith will have three more great seasons and Gore will have one more good season.
Agreed Grant. But then again, no one saw Aldon Smith coming.
“before they are no value.”
Should have said can no longer play at a high level. Of course they have value.
Let’s hope that neither JS or FG get injured this year and can play at a high level. I just remember how JH let the WR corps get thin and it hurt the 9ers in the championship game playing practice squad and ST players.
@Hofer:
My point is looking at the top teams that fell from that plateau including our storied 9ers, the defense became poor by draft BPAs.
Would you care to substantiate that statement?
@Grant:
So, if the 49ers think there is a future Pro Bowl regular DL available at 30, they should pass on him to select a merely good player at a position of need?
No.
@Grant:
Thanks for the quick response.
*Would you care to substantiate that statement?*
One example is the 1997 draft:
1. Jim Druckenmiller
2. Marc Edwards
3. Greg Clark
The 9ers waited too long to try to add a QB, TE, and FB to take the place of SY, BJones, and TRath. With these picks they could have drafted…Trevor Pryce, Darren Sharper, and Jason Taylor. Much better than an aging CDoleman, GPlummer, KGreene, and Rod Woodson. The 9er defense was in decline with other team’s once great but aging castoffs. They needed to address need positions on defense in 1997.
“Would you care to substantiate that statement?”
Hofer, Using the ’97 draft as an example of the 49ers drafting BPA vs Need is not a very strong argument.
The picks you referenced were based on need. Both Floyd and Jones were coming to the end of their contracts in SF so they selected their replacements in ’97 so they would have a year to develop. Both Edwards and Clark became starters in the ’98 season.
Hofer,
Those are your examples of BPA? Those are merely examples of terrible talent evaluation, IMO. The 49ers may have been trying for a BPA approach, but they failed miserably with those picks. Let’s say all of those picks were successful, you don’t think that would’ve made a positive change to the 49er’s fortunes?
BPA, with need being the deciding factor in cases of equal talent, is clearly the way to go. Only in the case of an extreme position weakness would you want to draft for need alone.
@Hofer:
Jack is right. Your example actually supports my position. Each of the 49ers’ 1997 picks was made based upon need. And in drafting for need, the 49ers missed out on vastly superior players at positions the 49ers did not consider to be needs at the time.
Doleman had 11 sacks during the 1996 season, and Hanks went to the Pro Bowl. Moreover, Doleman and Hanks both went on to have Pro Bowl seasons in 1997. At the time of the 1997 draft, no one thought that DE and FS safety were needs, so drafting Trevor Pryce/Jason Taylor and Darren Sharper would have been considered drafting BPA, not drafting for need.
Claude,
You missed my point. Drafting those guys other than the QB, RB, and TE, they could have had them 1-2 years later after the 1998 year waiting in the wings to start. They didn’t need Druck, Clark or Edwards at that point in 1997 and none of them stayed on the roster more than 3-4 years.
@old coach:
It is my fervent hope that the 49ers do exactly that.
Claude:
What’s your theory on best player available? Are you saying there are “sure things.” Doesn’t “best player available,” imply the experts know he’s the best player available? Don’t experts get it wrong all the time? If they do, doesn’t the merit of “best player available,” get called into question. Let’s say the 49ers think, according to their draft board, that at 30 the best player available is linebacker, Lavonte David. They draft him because, he’s the “bpa,” but he sits on the bench for three years because he’s not unseating Willis, Brooks, Bowman or Smith…. then when he does get a shot, he’s a bust. No thanks. I’ll stick with need.
Spit,
Using that line of thinking, if you could miss when using a BPA approach, couldn’t you also miss when using a need based approach? I don’t see how pikcing based on need helps insulate a team from missing on picks more than BPA. If anything, it seems you’d end up with more misses when drafting for need over talent.
Spit,
Your example of ILB is so extreme [the 49ers have the two best ILB in the NFL], that I agree with you, the 49ers shouldn’t draft an ILB this year. But that’s a very unususal case. It’s not often that a draftee would be sitting behind two All Pro players.
Old Coach – MM is a tool. The 49ers should always draft for need. Any smart team should always draft for need regardless of how good they are. I don’t care if your team won three Super Bowls in a row – you have needs. The 49ers needs are interior linemen, wide receiver, defensive linemen, safety and running back. It doesn’t matter how good you get, you will always have needs. And if you neglect those needs, that’s called mortgaging, and if you mortgage, eventually at some point you have to overpay because you’re “needy.” You get leveraged because you don’t have depth. The minute you overpay is the minute you lose your competitive advantage. But then again, MM is compromised. I loved it when MM declared, “The 49ers and Alex Smith in lockstep,” then someone else at Bay Area Comcast “a staff writer,” broke the story that Harbaugh flew to Duke University to watch Manning workout. Opps. MM tried to save face by writing, “Harbaugh’s a man of his word.” To the press? Since when, Matt? Do some critical thinking for once, MM. Think for yourself. Don’t just report what Jim tells you or you become a pawn on Jim’s media chessboard – which is exactly what Matt Maiocco is.
You do not draft for need instead of BPA until Round 4. Rounds 1-3 should always be BPA unless they are so close and then position value and need come into play.
You’re certifiable. Thank god you don’t have Baalke’s ear.
You assume that the evaluation process is perfect. You shouldn’t.
Razor, I disagree to a point. BW drafted need in 1981 at DB that carried the 9ers to a SB win and a very strong pass/run defense for 5 years. Drafting BPA in rounds 1-3 when not considering need allows for a severe talent drop off in need players when mainly drafting them in rounds 4-7 or FA. This year I feel the *need* position is DL (age of JS and IS) and RB (FG age and wear/tear). I feel compelled for the 9ers to draft CF for playmaker purposes but is it the best move??!
Spit,
If you have issues with MM go tell him on his blog. I respect him although I don’t always agree with him, but if you have issues go there to discuss.
Hofer…. I have issues with MM being the mouthpiece for the 49er organization, masquerading as an objective reporter. He doesn’t care if it’s true or not. All he cares is that he has a relationship with the 49ers that keeps him employed – objective journalism be damned. Now why would I create a potential controversy on his blog, creating more readers when I want to weaken him? And does anyone really think a blogger is going to make MM think twice about just reporting whatever the 49ers tell him to, potentially taking food off his table? I don’t. That fight would be an exercise in futility. Much like conversing with you.
@Spitblood:
Any smart team should always draft for need regardless of how good they are.
Sorry, but I don’t believe that is what the smart teams do, and I don’t think it is what they should do. I prefer the approach that provides the team with the greatest number of difference makers. Drafting for need doesn’t do that. Passing over a 10 in favor of a 8 merely because the 8 fills a need is shortsighted and detrimental to the team in the long run. Do that enough times and you will have a team with a lot of 8s and too few 10s.
The obvious exception is when a team is absolutely stocked at a particular position with relatively young players (for the 49ers that position would be ILB).
Another relevant consideration is the depth of the talent pool at the position of need.
Grumpy Guys’ approach is definitely an improvement over purely drafting for need, but it still risks damping the overall talent level in the medium and long run.
If you are interested in considering an opinion different from your own, this is a decent discussion of various draft theories: http://www.gbnreport.com/drafttheories.htm
“MM think twice about just reporting whatever the 49ers tell him to, potentially taking food off his table? I don’t. That fight would be an exercise in futility. Much like conversing with you.”
Thank you. Don’t mind being in the same company as MM. Good to hear!
Teams always have multiple options for BPA, so finding a player who fills a need isn’t particularly difficult. What is difficult is projecting how good a pro they will be. The teams that struggle with the draft do so because they chose the wrong players; not the wrong positions.
The rule of thumb in the draft as far as I’m concerned, is take the BPA at a need position unless you have a player that has dropped into your lap that was ranked a lot higher on your board. When you get down to where the Niners pick this year, there will be a number of different players with equal or similar rankings.
Still bitter?
Grant –
I don’t think you use a first round pick on RB or DL either, but Jacobs and Gore are on their last legs, and Kendal isn’t an every down back. There’s really no room on the roster for another running back, even drafted in the later rounds. Jacobs is a stop gap for one year. Anthony Dixon is in jeopardy of getting his walking papers – particularly if he keeps dancing in the backfield like Baryshnikov. I think the 49ers deferred drafting a running back this year because the rest of league needs running back. Look at all the running backs who are about to either retire, or the teams that need a running back. The Lions (Best), Rams (Jackson), Chargers (Sproles and Tolbert), Raiders (Bush), Jets (LT), Patriots (Law Firm), Cowboys (suck), Dolphins (are Reggie and Daniel the answer), Giants (Jacobs), Bucs (need a compliment to Blunt – I like booze), Browns (Hillis), Steelers (Mendenhall’s busted knee) and Packers (Grant and Wynn stink) could all use a RB. It’s not a good year to be needing a running back in the draft. This is partly why I believe Boise State’s Doug Martin is undervalued. I think Baalke was smart putting off drafting a running back until next year.
But the 49ers could draft for a DL in the later rounds to upgrade Wil, Ricky, Dobbs or Williams in favor of a guy with more potential pass rush. If the 49ers start hangin’ 30 on teams with JJ, they’ll need a strong DL rotation.
If the backup DL is for real the 49ers are in very good shape.
My take on need versus BPA is this: you grade your own players, every one of them on the roster. Then you grade the players in the draft. Now it becomes an exercise in subtraction: you draft for the Best Possible Upgrade.
So if the “BPA” is an ILB, forget about it, he is not beating out Willis and Bowman in the next three years anyway.
If your BPA is a CB but the guy who gives you the best upgrade is a WR – you take the wide receiver.
This takes into account how good a player is, but also accounts for need. It’s also basically the way that Walsh ran his drafts. If what he wanted and needed was not there, he’d trade up or down to get it. But he said, “You absolutely have to account for need, otherwise you overdevelop one area of your team at the expense of another.”
This may be one the best explanations of need vs BPA ever broken down on the blogs. Pay attention, girls.
Forget Stan and Claude. Grumpy is a freakin GENIUS!!!
Great breakdown…
It’s geneous… you spelled it wrong. I know, I know… grammar police. But it’s a common spelling error I’m trying to correct. Call me a crusader.
Also Grump left off one other part to the need vs BPA debate. If you’re GM is a drunk and drafting guys like Balmer, Rachal and Reggie Smith…. you “Need” to fire him. Best Player Available was the guy at the bottom of his draft board, not the top. You know that monkey commercial where they’re partying because the chart says sales are up, then the guy comes in and turns the chart over the way it should be, with the arrow pointing down? That was McCloughan’s drafts. I “need” a drink just thinking about it.
your*
GENIUS!!!
The McClueless-Nolan-Singletary years are largely responsible for the damage to my liver over that time span. Those bastards made a mint for the makers of Jose Cuervo though, I’ll give them that.
Spit,
I only hope you were joking about “genius” being spelled “geneous”.
Spit,
The method Grumpy Guy laid out is just as much talent based as it is need based. It has two apsects: talent and need. Not need alone.
Also, what’s the deal with referring to other bloggers as “girls”?
ExGolfer…. Go look up geneous in the dictionary. I’m not kidding. My way is the right way, your way is ironical. Regarding need verse BPA, I’d argue what Grump wrote was spot on during the Walsh era. I’d go a step further now and say during the salary cap era a GM and owner need to bend more toward the need side of life.
Spit,
I can’t find geneous in my dictionary, or online. If you’re not pulling my leg, you should look up genious.
Ex, here you go.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=geneous
I would run my draft just like Mr. Walsh. In fact I’d do everything like Mr. Walsh.
Razor, it took ownership a while to figure it out after hiring MN and MS. TB is a BParcells disciple, but he’s adapting to JH’s power run WCO and drafting accordingly.
49ers on 2012 Hard Knocks?
http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2012/04/lights-camera-santa-clara-hbo-eyeing-49ers-for-hard-knocks.html
I really hope not. The Niners don’t need any unnecessary drama.
I didn’t come up with this on my own, it evolved talking to people on the blogs, the Insider, Outsider and others. NJ49er among others.
It’s all about by hook or by crook, getting the best 53 players. And it’s an exercise in building a dry sand castle: as fast as you bring in talent, talent will leave, by injury, retirement and free agency. So you’re ALWAYS fighting to keep that edge.
One modifier here in the modern game is contractual length – a guy like Goldson could be solid at his position, or he could be downgraded and a need. It all depends on whether you can keep him without breaking your budget. The GM has to account for that side of things as well. That’s one complication Walsh did not have to worry about so much.
QBs are always a need – almost*. You have to have at least three solid guys. For the 49ers this year, the need to get reps to see what we already have, for this one year only means that QB is not a need, and we likely won’t draft one, unless it’s in the later rounds to fight with Tolzien for scraps.
What happened to NJ49er grumps?
He still posts on the 49er Outsider, Skeeber’s blog.
thanks!
every draft pick is one injury from being a starter if i could get a “great inside line backer with the 30th pick and he was the only “great” player left on the board i would draft him or trade back for more picks in 2013 or 2014
@ old coach:
Yes.
There are no ‘great’ players at 30 on the board. Anyone who falls in love with just one player that deep into the draft should not be drafting.
And there is no way that the 49ers should draft an ILB there this year. Anyone who would, should be terminated with extreme rapidity. That’s a McClueless style pick, and even the rest of us alcoholic reprobates won’t go there.
Trading out, OTOH, is always a possibility.
@Grumpy Guy:
There are no ‘great’ players at 30 on the board.
Really? Tell that to all of the Hall of Famers who weren’t drafted in the first round.
There are always great players at this point. In fact statisticly speaking teams would be much better off trading down for more pics from rounds 3 on than keeping their first 2 pics. The trick is finding them.
The 49ers don’t need linebackers, offensive tackles, or cornerbacks. They need a running back, but don’t need a running back because Gore and Jacobs extend the “need” bridge into the 2013 draft / season. Deferring the maintenance if you will…
In the first round, you don’t draft an interior lineman. I think Baalke is so damn ahead of the competition when finding free agent value – and I think Harbaugh can really recruit free agents – that I don’t have a problem overpaying for a player every once in a while… in this case Goldson. So, I wouldn’t draft a safety in the first round, particularly when there won’t be one available in the first round at 30 anyway, except for that one dude who’s name escapes me right now… His last name starts with a B. Quarterback is a need, but Harbaugh has two waiting in the wings.
That leaves tight end, wide receiver, or D line. But you don’t draft a 4.3 DE in the first round unless he’s a savage pass rusher. Now NT I’d take in the first round, but there aren’t any worth taking at 30. The only TE worth taking at 30 is Fleener and he’ll be gone. So that leaves WR. Take solace those who want a WR in the first. I’ve reasoned it out. The Texans want a receiver. They might take Randle. That leaves us with my boy, Alshon Jeffrey. Go back to your fires bright, boys. Might as well turn in the draft card now…
If the Niners are stuck with Jeffery as their best option @ 30, they should trade up.
Notice the quotes in ‘great’ players.
Sure, some guys might develop into NFL stars or Hall of Famers. But there are NO sure thing, can’t miss guys, and no one who a GM should completely throw aside his objectivity over.
The last time we drafted around 30 we ended up with Kentwan Balmer. Case in point. McClueless’s “BPA” turned out to be quite a catch, didn’t he?
In any event, if you want to differ with Bill Walsh over the draft, have at it… just understand a whole lot of older fans are going to take it with a grain of salt. We’ve seen the way it should be done, son.
John Shoup, statistically, you don’t know what you are talking about – the number of HoF players falls off very steeply after the first round.
http://www.profootballhof.com/history/general/draft/round.aspx
Claude Balls,
If they were “great,” they’d be drafted earlier. By “great,” I believe Grump means “Can’t miss players.” Some call them tiers. This draft the “experts” are saying the first tier ends at pick six. There’s gems in every round. Victor Cruz was undrafted. Hell, I’m undrafted and I could play qb right now better than Alex Smith. Point to all this is, by 30 the field is watered down.
“If the Niners are stuck with Jeffery as their best option @ 30, they should trade up.”
Agreed!!
Grant,
If the 49ers are stuck with Jeffrey at 30, they should trade “back”… unless they have a time machine…. and in that case, I’d prefer we take umbrage with a few other moves before addressing wide receiver – McCloughan, Singletary, Smith…. Jimmy Raye, Hostler…. the hits keep coming.
Hall of Famers by round:
1: 97
2: 29
3: 20
4: 6
5: 6
6: 1
7: 9
8: 3
9: 5
10: 2
11: 1
12: 2
13 thru 17: 5
18 thru 27: 5
Undrafted free agents: 15
Note: as for Third rounders… since Montana was drafted in the third round in 1979, only two other HoF have since been drafted there, Russ Grimm in ’81 and Curtis Martin in ’95. The trend seems to be more players are better evaluated and taken earlier in the draft when they warrant it.
There are decidedly NOT ‘great’ players littered at the bottom of every draft. A first round pick is worth many times what a third or fourth is worth – for a reason.
LOL, Spit: its the classic time travel paradox: if I go back in time and kill McCloughan, Nolan and John York, do I get my liver back? But if my liver survives, I will not be dissolute and angry and go back, so I cannot save it.
Would you guys look at the big brain on Grumpy today? It’s gigantic… stupendously enormous. He needs to put cork in his ears to keep brain matter from enlightening the mankind. Somebody got the smart pills out today, boy. He’s hotter than hell on a holiday.
Grumpy,
Interesting of the 1st round HOF’s, only 25 were from double digit picks (72 are #9 or higher in the first round).
Seriously, your quandary just put the final touches on my nut house above the shoulders. You blew my mind… which adds a whole ‘nother dimension to the dementia. When you borrow Grant’s time machine, before you prevent the 49er mayhem, be sure to find Jenna Jameson …. timing is everything. Do your homework.
Then go back, keep Eddie from being lured by the Louisiana sirens. Your liver will be fine — well, better anyway– and by the time you get to 2012, borrow Grant’s time machine and look for my sanity. I left it somewhere between 2008 and 2012.
It’s what you’d expect – the curve drops very steeply early, then gradually flattens out.
Your chance of getting a HoF player in the top nine or ten would look to be on the order of around ten percent. (Which means of course, 90% are not…). Down around 30, your chance is far lower. By the time you get to 100, it’s somewhere south of one percent.
…. and by the time you reach 2012, borrow Grant’ s time machine and look for my sanity.
Uh, oh. Grant’s time machine has a defect. It’s like Groundhog Day. Damn it, Jim, I’m a psychopath, not a time machine mechanic.
@Grumpy Guy:
I think my stated draft philosophy is very much in line with Walsh’s at all. Walsh said “You complement with free agents, but you build with draft picks.” That sounds suspiciously similar to my statement that you use free agency to fill needs and draft BPA in the draft.
Even during the era when he didn’t have free agency to fill needs, Walsh was not in the habit of reaching for players. One of the purposes of his trades was to make sure that the 49ers were in position to draft targeted players for appropriate value. And I am not aware of Bill Walsh ever passing over a player he thought was great merely because the player did not fill a need. Perhaps you could identify those times when he did so.
As for McCloughan, who said he employed the BPA approach? Moreover, his draft problems stemmed less from a faulty draft strategy than they did from his being too rigid about size requirements and not being particularly strong at recognizing talent in the middle and later rounds.
@Spitblood:
If they were “great,” they’d be drafted earlier.
That would be true only if every GM in the league applied the BPA approach and was a good talent evaluator. Fortunately, plenty of GMs are not particularly adept at spotting talent, and many teams reach for players in order to fill needs.
Claude,
No offense, but this dog don’t hunt. You wrote to Grump:
“I think my stated draft philosophy is very much in line with Walsh’s at all. Walsh said “You complement with free agents, but you build with draft picks.” That sounds suspiciously similar to my statement that you use free agency to fill needs and draft BPA in the draft.”
It doesn’t sound “suspiciously similiar” at all. Take free agency out of your above paragraph. We all agree you complement there. We also agree Walsh said you build through the draft. But “how” you build it where you were wrong. Grump showed that Walsh had a system for “how” he built through the draft that was contrary to the BPA theory you prefer. Now you’re trying to muddy the water. Nice try.
That would be true only if every GM in the league applied the BPA approach and was a good talent evaluator. Fortunately, plenty of GMs are not particularly adept at spotting talent, and many teams reach for players in order to fill needs.
Which is why Ryan Tannehill a 2nd round prospect at best with his film, will be taken in the top ten.
As to Walsh, looking back at his drafting style, he really didn’t stick to one way of doing things. One of the best drafts he ever had in 86 was full of trade downs. Arguably the best player he ever drafted was taken after a trade up ahead of the Cowboys. The issue of BPA vs. Need is really one and the same because every team has rankings and there is normally multiple players in a pool to choose from when their turn comes up. You can always take the BPA and have it fill a need. The problem is finding the right player.
As for Walsh not reaching… LOL.
His very first draft pick in 1979, James Owen, was areach, a guy projected to WR after he played RB in college at UCLA.
Earl Cooper was a reach. Walsh needed a FB.
Hell, Montana was sort of a reach. Most teams thought he was not worth drafting. The Cowboys considered him but went for Doug Cosbie instead.
Jim Miller, punter, in the third round. Just because he needed one. Three DBs to start in 1981, because he had no one any better than rookies.
Blanchard Montgomery, because he needed a pass rusher.
Walsh *always* drafted for need, even when he also looked for the relative BPA.
Er, um, Grumpy? Do you realize that your own chart indicates that more HOF players were drafted outside the first round [97 first rounders vs 109 acquired after the first round]?
Oy vey. Math literacy is hard, isn’t it, Golfer?
How many MORE PLAYERS were drafted in rounds two through 27 (in the old days)?
About 20 times, roughly. And the number of HoF players is barely higher.
So the percentage chance of drafting one at *any pick* in the rest of the draft averages about 18 times lower.
“Statistically”: As a scientist, I can only paraphrase Inigo for some of you: “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
@Spitblood:
My dog hunts very well, thank you. And he understands basic sentence construction as well.
The Walsh quote reads: “You complement with free agents, but you build with draft picks.”
First, the definition of complement is “to complete or enhance by providing something additional.” In other words, it means to fill in the missing pieces or in the case of an NFL roster, address needs.
The use of the “but” in Walsh’s quote indicates that what you do in the draft is different from what you do in free agency. If free agency is used to fill in missing pieces, then that is not what you use the draft for.
“Build[ing] with draft picks” means putting together the core of your team, your best players. You don’t do that by passing over great players for lesser players merely because the lesser player is at a position of need, at least not on a consistent basis. You run the risk of building a team of lesser talent.
@Grumpy Guy:
You’re knocking down a straw man. The statistical probability of drafting a HOF player at any one spot in the draft is irrelevant. You said that there are no great players available at 30. What is relevant then is how many HoF players were available at the 30th pick of the first round in the year they were drafted.
Every HoF player drafted in round 2 or later was necessarily available at the 30th pick of round 1 (at least since the number of teams in the league went above 29). Consequently, contrary to your assertion, more than half of all HoF players were in fact available at pick 30.
You just need a quality talent evaluator to recognize them.
Actually, if you look at the numbers, no they were not. A considerable number of 2nd and 3rd rounders went before 30. The league used to be smaller.
I know, math is hard. Ppl who don’t understand it should refrain from trying to argue about it.
Grumpy,
No, “math literacy” [that's what you call math?] it isn’t hard. My point is, more HOF players were selected AFTER the 30th pick [proven by your own chart, BTW].
The reason I made this point is the result of your own misguided statement in your initial post:
“There are no ‘great’ players at 30 on the board.”
You didn’t say anything about there being a lower percentage of great players selected after the first round [wow, what a revelation, you're really a "math" whiz], or anything of the sort. No, you made a blanket statement. One that was flat wrong [proven by your own chart, BTW], accept it and move on.
Just so you know, I wasn’t trying to tangle with you, I think you make most of your points well, even when I don’t agree. I just found it ironic that your chart of draft position of HOF players completely contradicted your post that started the thread.
Nice discussion on replacement value, as it pertains to the draft, earlier in the day.
@Grumpy:
There is less shame in admitting you were wrong than there is in sticking to a disproven hypothesis. But you go ahead. After all, you’re a scientist …
… whose hypothesis was disproven by a couple of amateurs.
Grumpy,
OK, some of those second and third round HOF were taken before the 30th pick. So what? Your statement was absolute, and still wrong.
Even if ALL of the second and third round picks that ended up being HOF players were drafted before the 30th pick, that’s still, now let me take off my shoes so I can use my toes to do all this high falutin’ math, 60 HOF players acquired after the 30th pick. That’s still a lot more than none.
Anything else, oh, great wizard?
The WR i want. Take Fleener in the first i guess, if u want. This draft is deep with wideout talent. Criner will be available in the 2nd or 3rd. 6’4″ 215. Great hands and leaping ability. Clearly a monster in jump ball situations. Does like the top speed so many of you want, only running a 4.68 in his 40 at the combine. But got it down to in the 4.5′s in his pro day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onSTDBS38W8
*Lack the
Plus he is very active in the run game. Something not many college WR’s are.
If Michael Floyd drops to 15, should the Niners trade up for him? Will they trade up for him?
No and No. Good player, but not worth the picks to move up. Inconsistent in College at times and really not head and shoulders above some of the later prospects.
I totally agree, Rocket. Throw in Floyd’s DUI’s, and it might make it hard to spend a first round pick on him.
Harbaugh and Baalke are willing to take a chance on troublemakers though Ex.
No. There are other options later in the draft for WR. If Fleener isn’t available at the 30th pick, they should either trade down or take the BPA.
Is Floyd really worth trading a lot of picks for? Is he going to be a top ten receiver for at least 7 out of the next ten years? If the answer is no, then don’t trade up. If you think he will be then do the trade and hope for the best.
I think on draft approaches “grumpy guy” is correct. I would add that in the later rounds; 4-7 that BPA has a greater pull as a larger percentage of these players will not make the team and the diference in players grades can be the difference in who makes the team and who doesn’t. In other words I would take a much higher graded ILB over a lower graded wide receiver even if wide receiver is a greater need.
How high should the Niners be willing to trade up for Fleener?
No spots. He’s a player we should take if he is their when we draft. Only player we should trade up to get is Floyd.
You think Floyd is a better prospect than Fleener? I don’t.
CF is a better prospec,t but not rated that way currently but of course, all opinion.
Fleener is a better prospect than Blackmon, too.
Maybe we can get Aldon and Ray to show Floyd around town.
Honestly I don’t see them trading up for anybody that figures to fall to a point they could trade up to. If anything, I see them trading down.
Why would the Niners trade down when only five of their draft picks will have a realistic shot to make the team?
A number of reasons Grant. The more picks you have, the better chance you have of hitting on them. They could trade down and possibly get a 1st round pick next year. They could use the extra pick or picks they acquire in the trade down, to trade up in another round.
If they traded down, it would be because they had a few players closely ranked and felt they could get one of them with a lower pick. If that’s the case, you do it. If a player they really like falls to them, they stay and take him.
GC, If they give up a 3rd and a 4th, they can move as high as 22nd but that is about it. Throwing in a 5th only moves them one more spot to 21 and at that point so not really worth it unless they know for sure they have him. What do you think?
I think Fleener is a top-10 prospect, maybe top-five, so he’s worth a lot.
GC, the top analysts don’t agree that CF is that highly rated. How did you come to that conclusion?
The National Football Post does – they rank Fleener No. 7 overall. http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/college_big_board_rankings.html
You could make the argument that he’s the fifth best prospect behind Luck, Griffin, Claiborne and Richardson.
Fleener’s a flat out mismatch.
BTW, if they give up their 2nd round pick and exchange 1st round picks, they can *only* move up to #19.
Fleener better prospect than Blackmon and Floyd? GC i didn’t know you smoked dope
Adam – he has a time machine. He can get some good stuff from the 70′s.
Grant,
Thanks for the link. The play they show on the video is a perfect example of the diversity that Fleener brings to the table. On that play he is lined up as the wide receiver, and that is a very simple pitch and catch that I could see Smith making all day.
@Grant:
If Fleener is truly a Top 10/Top 5 talent, and he is available at 21, the 49ers should by all means package their 1st, 3rd and 4th to get him.
The question is do you trust Bunting’s evaluation more than Mike Mayock’s or Pat Kirwan’s, and if so, why? Neither of the latter two thinks Fleener has a first round value.
I think it takes a progressive scout to recognize Fleener’s value as a match up nightmare. I think a more conservative scout underrates Fleener and sees him as merely a tight end who’s a mediocre blocker.
GC, I’d like to see them move up, but for only for the 3rd and 4th pick up to #22. I’d like to see the 9ers keep the 2nd round pick. Looking at the WR class, I’d rank CF at the top with the playmaker value he could add.
Fleener better prospect than Blackmon and Floyd? GC i didn’t know you smoked dope
Adam I don’t know if he’s smoking anything but if so I must be smoking it too. Fleener will be a better NFL player than both of these guys imo. He is a 6″6 TE who runs excellent routes, has 4.5 speed and has great hands. He is a mismatch wherever you line him up, but especially if he’s on a LB. Floyd and Blackmon are good players in their own right, but a lot of draftnicks are sleeping on Fleener. Mayock among others had him as the second TE in the draft which was laughable, until his pro day. Then they went back and watched more film. Then they saw this kid making big play after big play while averaging 20 yards per catch and moved him up to the top rated TE and a possible 1st round pick.
If we get Fleener, I’ll be very happy.
Bay area bias at its best guys.
Sando checked 14 mock drafts and *only* Don Banks had the 9ers drafting CF.
Rocket, Please pass it on to me too. I am a full fledged Fleenerite (as msc called me). The guy is dynamic. Look at the play on the link Grant included. That is the same play concept that the 49ers used on the opening play in Baltimore, with Walker in the position of Fleener.
The difference is that Fleener is taller, faster, and is a better leaper than Walker, and Alex could very easily fit the ball high to him.
Adam707,
Bay area bias at its best guys
You could be right Adam. Maybe my opinion is biased but I can honestly say I’ve seen all 3 play and the guy I see having the most success at the next level is Fleener. Fleener at TE facing LB’s and Safties with his speed and big body, will be more effective than the other two vs. top CB’s imo. Neither one of them is the big franchise WR that Megatron and Fitzgerald were coming out of College. They are good players; not great ones and in the case of Floyd, inconsistent as well. When you look at what Gronk and Graham did this past season and inject a more polished version coming out of College, you get Fleener.
I’d go with Fleener over either one and not look back. Problem is, I have a strong suspicion the GM’s around the league view Fleener in a much more favorable light than the draftnicks due and he will be gone well before #30. I have a strong suspicion he’s going to the Bears at 19.
Would you trade the first, the second and the fourth-round pick to the Bengals to move up to 17 for Fleener?
No. That’s too much for even Fleener. We need those picks for depth at safety, guard, offensive tackle, linebacker, and defensive end.
Grant, I would absolutely do that. Especially if they feel solid about the guard position with their current guys.
The only thing holding this team back from the Super Bowl is offensive playmakers. They could then go Fleener and Jones in rounds 1 & 3, then use 5,6,7 to add depth on the defensive side at S, CB, and LB.
“Would you trade the first, the second and the fourth-round pick to the Bengals to move up to 17 for Fleener?”
I’d prefer to keep the 2nd and not reach like TB did for ADavis by adding a pick when not necessary. Give up the 3rd and 4th exchanging 1st round picks and if he’s not their at 22, move on to plan B.
Hofer, “BTW, if they give up their 2nd round pick and exchange 1st round picks, they can *only* move up to #19.”
What are you basing this off?
@Jack:
The draft pick trade chart. I don’t know which one Hofer uses, but here is one that I believe is in accord with the ones used by NFL teams.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/draft/draft-trade-chart/
Thanks Claude!
Claude, they are all typically the same, but yes that is what I’ve been using.
Scouts Inc. doesnt have Fleener in top 32 prospects……Trading up for him would be completely idiotic. Like i said take him at 30 if he falls to us but no reason to give up picks for him
Why is Scouts Inc. gospel?
Mcshay and Kiper both have him around there. None have him in top 20.
Regarding Floyd, I don’t want a guy with 3 DUIs. Sorry to discriminate, but it’s big money and big chances. Stress can “trigger” drinking. The 49er are going to be in the playoffs for as long as Harbaugh is the coach and he doesn’t get burned out. Players who have problems are trying, and the playoffs are stressful. It’s not a good combo, regardless if the 49ers have the best support anywhere. The 49ers also have McDonald and Aldon on the team who don’t have problems with alcohol (that’s been reported beyond partying a little too much), but it’s not like the 49ers need to add fuel to the fire there.
Regarding Fleener, I completely agree that the mocks have Fleener undervalued but nobody really knows where the 49ers would have to move up to get Fleener. You move up to 15, he goes at 9, you need a time machine. In addition to that, the 49ers already have Vernon Davis. Now the Pats have made the duel TE threat all the rage, but what the 49ers really need to do is stretch the field BOTH vertically and horizontally. The quarterback sucks. However, personnel on the outside that demands a double team FOR YEARS TO COME is the way to go if you can find it. Moss is a one year fix.
Despite Grant’s displeasure with Alshon Jeffrey, he’s one of the few receivers left at 30 who could demand a double team on the outside and potentially become a legit number 1 receiver. Just because ESPN doesn’t have Alshon on its first round board (LMAO) doesn’t mean Alshon won’t be a stud in the NFL. Like we’ve been saying all day today, the experts are wrong a lot.
Alshon is definitely under rated. A big reason analysts dropped him out of the 1st was because he was over weight and slow. It was reported though that he showed up at his pro day 20lbs lighter than expected and ran in the high 4.4′s/ low 4.5′s. I think he’ll be a stud. There are a lot of WR’s i would be satisfied with getting. I’ve accepted the fact that the niners may draft Fleener, but trading up for him should be out of the question.
Jeffery couldn’t get separation in college and he won’t get separation in the pros.
GC is point on here. AJeff reminds me a bit of JJ Stokes. Drafting him at #30 would be a huge mistake.
Seperation is key when you dont have the ability to go up and make a catch.
Grant … that’s a poor analysis. Jeffrey gets separation jumping. That’s his game. He out-jumps the defender. If you have a shorter defender, it’s a mis-match. It’s an additional dimension the 49ers don’t have…. and need.
Jeffery has below-average lateral quickness for a WR.
Jeffrey would be better off as a TE, and I’m not kidding. He’s Mike Williams part two. If somebody takes him and convinces him to try TE, he could be pretty good imo. As a WR, he’ll be a jump ball guy who can’t break free of coverage.
Some have mentioned in their draft analysis that AJ may have trouble keeping the weight down, so moving him to TE may be the answer. I’m not seeing why he should be a 1st round pick over guys like Criner, Toon, or Quick that are very similar.
I agree. Jeffery is in the second-round Criner tier
Criner in the 3rd then
He lacks sepration, but his ability to make a play on the ball when its in the air is second to no one in the draft
It’s third to Fleener and Hill.
We’ll call it a tie.
“He lacks sepration, but his ability to make a play on the ball when its in the air is second to no one in the draft”
Isn’t the lack of separation the big knock on Crabtree? That is the reason that everyone is giving for Smith not throwing him the ball more.
What makes you think that all of a sudden Smith will just start throwing up jump balls?
Crab was never a jump ball receiver, not even in college. Thats primarily what Criner/Hill/Jeffery does. Smith’s never had a WR with the jump ball capability (Braylon dont count), maybe he’ll throw it when he has a WR or TE he can trust.
“just throw it up and let your playmaker make a play”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur2NfXtvQTs
“What makes you think Smith will start throwing up jump balls?” I don’t know…. maybe the same reason Harbaugh brought in Randy Moss…
He doesnt leave his feet to make that catch. I said he wasn’t a JUMP ball WR.
Criner is not Randy Moss.
My point is, Crabtree can make a play on the ball, but according to many on here Smith doesn’t throw it to him because he can’t get separation.
If Criner isn’t getting separation in the Pac12 he sure won’t all of a sudden start getting it in the NFL.
Marvin Jones would be a better choice in the 3rd…
Homer… I mean Hofer… so we’re going to play the name drop game? Okay. I think Alshon Jeffrey reminds me of Jerry Rice, and not drafting him in the first would be a huge mistake.
Taintedblood…I mean Spitblood. Whatever. Can’t wait for spring break to end so you can go back to the school you attend.
Mike Mayock, who I think is the best “expert” out there has the receivers ranked like this …
1. Blackmon
2. Floyd
3. Wright
4. Hill
5. Jeffrey
Personally, I think ranking Hill over Jeffrey is wrong. I think Jeffrey is better than Hill. Hill is a project. In addition, these guys are making too much of Jeffrey’s weight. That, to me, is value.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/09000d5d827efecf/Is-Alshon-Jeffery-a-first-round-pick
Right about now is when all the so-called experts are looking at dimensions, stroking their egos, over thinking things… getting paralysis by over analysis – and forgetting all about productivity on the field. Let’s compare Jeffrey to Hill’s numbers over the last two years …. Jeffrey’s receptions 137, yards 2279, touchdowns 17. Hill’s receptions 43, yards 1111, touchdowns 8. Great…. Hill is fast. It’s that kind of thinking that lands you DeHeyBey. Jeffrey caught three times the amount of balls that Hill caught. Jeffrey didn’t separate in college, but he sure produced. He’ll produce in the NFL, too. I’ll take the guy who produced over the guy who separated.
Mike Williams was also a productive WR at USC.
Our big WR need is not speed. Hell, we have Ginn, and that and 5 bucks will get you a lousy overpriced coffee at Starbuck’s. What we need is to move the chains on third down. If I cannot have Jerry Rice, I’d settle for Dwight Clark here. We need a passing game that moves the ball and converts on third and medium to long.
Key is route running and TG and MC have had their problems in the past. JR has stated that is what helped his game was running clean routes.
To be fair DHB had a productive year for Oakland. nearly 1000 yards and 4 TD’s. More yards, less catches, same TD’s as MC.
@Adam707
I know. That is really depressing. The one thing we had with MC was that he was better than DHB the first two years. DHB also had a lot of great catches of high difficulty last year. Balls which MC would not catch, DHB did.
Grant – Mike Williams sat out of football his first year in a contract dispute and ate his sofa. That’s a little different….
DS, I thought you said you didn’t watch Raider games?
However DS if Alex doesn’t overthrow MC so many times then MC would have had well over 1000 yards and about 3-5 more TD’s. And on the flip side if MC went to camp him and Smith would have better Chemistry, and if he didnt have so many drops his numbers also would have been better. And unlike MC, DHB is in an offensive system that is best suited to his talents. He’s a receiver who runs verticle and has a QB who throws verticle. MC is best suited for a spread system, not a power running one but he is adjusting nicely
@Jack
No, I never said that. I hate the Raiders, and in the Niners most dire times, I have an eternal hope in knowing that the Raiders are just completely sucky.
Quite frankly, when was the last Super Bowl team to have lost to them and won the Super Bowl? It might be like a decades s long curse. Lose to the Raiders, and just pack your bags. To beat the Raiders, all you have to do is not screw up. Bill Callahan was right all along. “We must be the dumbest team in America!” The Raiders fired him for that statement, and have only proven him right ever since.
@Adam707
Yet MC still would have gone off after the Title game loss. With or without 1000 yards and say 8TD’s. I don’t see how a system or a QB or a HC is at all responsible for what MC said. That is all on him. I’ve consistently stated that KW had a bad playoffs as well. But I’m more forgiving of KW mistakes, even though you can pinpoint the title game loss on him a lot more than on MC for the simple reason of how the two of them behaved after that loss.
KW was a man and admitted to his errors. MC on the other hand said something to the effect of “Just throw me the ball, even if I’m covered”. While neglecting the fact that he was single covered all day long and could not get open.
If MC acted like KW, I wouldn’t be on his case as much as I have been. Not even close. Now, I am not saying I would not look to replace MC or KW. But my attitude of MC’s play and pay rate would not be as it has been these last few months. Agree or disagree. That has been/will be my position.
And I could care less about the stats MC puts up. I want to see him show up big in big games in big moments. VD stank a lot more than MC did this regular season. But when it mattered, he was ON in the playoffs. MC needs to do that. I am perfectly happy for MC if he had 19 catches for 19 yards (and just say 3 TD’) in 19 games next year if he caught that one pass in each game that made the difference between winning and losing (AND 0 DROPS). He would be a clutch player, and that is what wins championships. And that is what I want. Not some guy who gets 250 yards receiving against some crappy team in one game, then vanishes and does zilch when the team needs him in the playoffs.
It was something along the lines of “You got to be thrown the ball to make plays” I think the statement is blown out of proportion. Yes it is a comment that shouldn’t have been said, but he was ripped by the media the whole week leading up to the game and then disappeared and was upset. Statement should have never happened but im sure there’s more to whats said than we know. The media does a great job of editing.
In my opinion you are weighing too much of your opinion on a small sample size. Yes he had a bad post season, but you cant solely judge his future post season play on that alone. Players evolve. I am one who believes he went into this offseason with a chip on his shoulder and he’s only gonna be better next year. He’s gonna be our #1 WR next year so i hope he makes that next step
@Adam707
I saw the whole interview on TV without editing.
Every other player on that team said the right thing. Pointing the finger at themselves for losing the game. All but 1. MC. Not once did he suggest that he played poorly.
No media tricks were being played in this instance.
If the value is not there at 30, I would look to trade the pick for a mid-level team’s first rounder next year.
I would not be surprised by almost anything Baalke does. I would not discount the possibility he goes pass rush at 30 if the right guy is there, even.
They really need to use their first round pick on an offensive skill position player who makes an impact. Jacobs and Moss are one year stop gaps. When they leave, the 49er need second season new blood to pickup the slack. I don’t care if it’s a running back, scat back, 3rd down back, slot receiver, wide receiver or tight end. Use the 30th on an offensive skill position player.
If there is one there worth it, sure. If there is no one who can provide a real upgrade and be that #1 receiver, trade back into next year. Then you have two #1s next year. That gives you the option of trading up for a WR – or another position, if we find we have a critical need. Or you just take two quality players, a year later.
Moss is not a long term solution, but he does give us the possibility of flexibility. Manningham I want to see more of; I think he could be an important cog in Harbaugh’s attack.
Grant, I am thinking the O-Line thing will work out like this:
LT – Staley…LG Iupati…C Goodwin…RG Kilgore…RT…Davis
Boone would be the swing tackle, Person the swing guard. If Goodwin gets hurt Kilgore slides down and Person replaces Kilgore.
Does that seem too far fetched?
That sounds right on.
I think they will want a vet C-G in that mix too. But they don’t want to pay very much, as they do not expect him to start. They’ll wait and pick up someone for as little as possible after the draft.
Or maybe Boone will be Kilgore’s cheap competition.
Agree Grump. So make that trade up to 17 if that is what it takes to get Fleener.
There is plenty of depth in this draft to get good value for potential backups in Rounds 5,6,7.
If we move Boone inside, we still need another body, either inside or at tackle. I think we’ll carry 8 active OL, and one late draftee or FA on the Developmental Squad.
Why eight? They carried seven active OL last season.
Never suggested moving Boone inside here. Teams typically carry 7 on the active roster. If they go with 8 which position would you like to take depth from?
WR Jack
Both our OL and DL got plenty of nice YAC after making their catch in 2011.
:- )
Boone might be a little too tall to play OG. You could use Delanie Walker as both a FB and TE…. and H back, saving a roster spot and not replace Moran Norris – then go with an 8th O linemen if the 49ers don’t get a veteran interior linemen on the cheap after the draft is over. More is better if the depth is young.
Norris’ role has already been filled by Rock Cartwright…
They go with 7 and have 2 on the practice squad that they could call up when needed. That worked for them well last year too…
Cartwright takes Castanzo.
No, they haven’t signed a 5th inside linebacker yet.
Cartwright will be the backup FB replacing Norris, and play on all special teams which Norris did not do…
RGallery is 6’7″ playing guard. Wasn’t KGogan 6’7″ playing guard also? But I agree with you 6’5″ is about the limit playing inside.
You are correct Hofer, but I may be wrong. I am still reeling from your astute observation that everything we say here is just our opinion, and doesn’t really affect anything. ; )-
Jack,
The 49ers are changing the way they look at their roster from a special teams perspective. Harbaugh and Seeley want players who actually play special teams and have a legit position on the offensive or defensive depth chart.
Regarding Boone’s height – it’s not just height, but also build. Some guys are taller, but play short. Boone plays tall…. if that makes sense.
Right Spit, Which is why they brought in Cartwright. Unlike Costanzo, he is a standout on special teams, that is also a legitimate backup at FB.
I hear you, Jack. You’re preaching to the choir. It could be possible that Cartwright takes up two spots – Moran and Costanzo. That we’re both chewin’ on different ends of the bone. However, the real test to all this would be if Bruce Miller got hurt. I’d be willing to bet you, if Walker had time to learn, he’d be a better fullback than Cartwright. Who knows? Let it all play out.
I hear you on that too Spit. They used Peele that way last year when Miller got dinged. All the more reason they should go after Fleener!
Yeah… but I like Byham and Rueland.
Height doesn’t really matter. Pad level does. As long as he plays lower then his opponent, he’ll be fine.
Ultimately it is out of our control who JH and TB draft. No one here that states their opinion is wrong – just differences on how we believe the 9ers should draft. It could very well be AJeffery or RRandle and who are we to tell TB and JH they are wrong? Just looking forward to the draft regardless of who they pick.
Dang!!! And I thought that Baalke and Harbaugh come here first thing every morning to figure out what to do with their team…
Jack, no only the top two comments here and that would be you and DS.
hof
oneniner is often here long before me. As is ribico, sometimes FDM. Ninermd sometimes posts super early (3:00 AM).
So thanks for the shout out but you’re wrong on this one.
That’s a very mature approach, Homer. Unfortunately for you, though, whatever you say will be wrong. You’re the exception to your own rule. Oh, the irony.
Thanks Spit. Now that was mighty gracious of you! lol
Anybody else having problems posting on BASG blog-or did he block me?
Super Stan, the super troll? Oh the humanity! : (
Nah, It turned out my browsers cache was filled..
Ralph fired by KNBR huh?..ruthless is Cumulus..First it was they wouldnt pay a pittance for local writers..now they want hosts who are volunteers.
WOW! The KNBR site for shows and schedule just states Mr T. Interesting. I didn’t always agree with Ralph but he was an excellent interviewer asking tough questions that weren’t standard fluff and could be answered only by yes or no. Bad move he and Tolbert had good chemistry.
Ralph has Parkinson’s. Bet Ralph just said, “I have enough money, now I want to travel, enjoy… whatever. I’ll come back, but only if the price is right.” I doubt Ralph is bitter, but all that being said, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Ralph working somewhere else, soon. KNRB should have paid Ralph, though. He’s one of the few people who thinks for himself in the business. All the other guys are clones who have little insight. Ralph also had history and experience to pull from… years of Debartalo… Hum Baby, Chris Mullen, Run TMC – stuff even before then to pull from. Some new punk won’t have that. It’s further changing of the guard…. Simmons, Greenwall, Starkey, Ralph, Dickey, Ira Miller… replaced by young punks with their rock ‘n roll, golf carts, time machines and spread sheets. Money ball for the media personality with little true knowledge about the way life really is. It’s the kind of insight that gets you Spiller or Hill instead of Jeffrey. It’s a sad affair, really. Go easy our barbed tongued warrior of etymology. You will be missed. Now all we have is Ratto, but he eats for two….
I hope they bring in Ted Robinson to replace him. I really like his style. Very smooth and well rounded. It doesn’t hurt that he is the voice of the 49ers either.
Yeah… I liked Ted Robinson when he was with the Giants – doing baseball. He was a lot better at baseball than he is football, that’s for sure. Robinson knew his stuff in baseball, might have even played at one point. But Robinson knows nothing first-hand about football, and I get the sense he’s just wingin’ it. His insights aren’t believable to me at all. Then when he tries to sell, it’s painful.
TRobinson is a tennis and baseball guy. His delivery is not as good for football although he grows on you and did a good job in the playoffs last year.
Hopefully RB’s leaving isn’t health related. It will be interesting to see if they team Tolbert with another voice. Tolbert is very good and someone with a different style would be a good fit. Maybe Tom and Radnich?
If you pair Radnich and Tolbert there would be no sports talk. They both like to go off on other tangents.
As for Robinson, I have enjoyed him in his fill in spots. I don’t listen to him on the game broadcasts because the delay between the radio and TV makes me crazier than usual…
Razor getting dumped happened quickly. He always asked the tough questions. He’s 66 and everything is a young mans’ game. Tolbert is impressive, he’s not just a basketball guy. I’m getting used to Robinson’s, Touchdown 49ers, on the broadcasts. Play by play guys can’t step on anyone’s toes, or they’ll be out of work.
Jeremy Newberry is once again on KNBR, this time on the Fitz and Brooks show. Check it out, shows the compassion the NFL has for former players.
I would like to see Ted Robinson do the interviews with Jim Harbaugh on the morning show on KNBR, Muph just does not have the relationship that Robinson has with the coach, yea I know Robinson works for the niners but he gets his questions answered unlike Murp.
I can’t listen to Ted Robinson’s “TOUCHDOWN 49ERS!!!” It’s a cross between Kermit the frog, a 13 year old boy just hitting puberty who stepped on a rusty nail, and the noise a cat makes when you step on its tail all rolled into one at the very moment I want to be celebrating the glory that is my team – and most of the time I’m inebriated. Total buzz kill, and I’m a man who respects the buzz.
@Spiltblood,
Not sure that is the way Ralph is looking at it, he got fired, he has money but he might be saying holy crap, I have Parkinson’s and I have no health insurance. He is going to make a statement today and it is not a amicable departing that KNBR is saying.
Ralph used to be good, and he asked the tough questions, but compared to Tolbert, his sports knowledge is next to nothing now, what I don’t understand , he just signed a 1 year $300,000 contract and a 2 months laters he gets thrown to the curb. Maybe Radnich is next, he got to be on borrowed time, his rountine is same old same old, bitter white guy who brown noses the suits.
Neal… I thought they were still negotiating that. That’s interesting.
A good web-site to get information behind the scenes is 415 media, Rich Lieberman, he gets alot of inside information. Check it out
That guys loves his hookers…. lol.
Hard Knocks in Santa Clara?? That would be awesome. But I cant see JH letting cameras into his “command center”.
nooooooo, keep our locker room tight.
Espn is saying Atlanta is rumored to be the new landing spot for the show…
Hard knocks is a disruption. Hopefully JH will so no move along.
It wouldn’t surprise me if they brought back F.P or moved Byrnes. Essnetially they paid him to leave, not to forget his severance pay. he’ll be fine. Maybe it was mutual.
Byrnes is too similar to TT. FP would not fit with TT. They need an opposite, someone like Bob Fitz would work.
Isn’t FP still doing color commentary for the Nationals?
FP has a very good job working for the Nationals as Jack said.
Isn’t “a very good job” and “working for the Nationals” an oxymoron?
Ex, Guess you haven’t tried watching the Giants this year. OUCH!!!
It’s early, although I’m getting worried about Lincecum. His fastball seems to be losing MPH each year. I’ve heard he’s throwing in the 89-90 range so far, that doesn’t sound good.
Scenario 1: San Francisco would love to see Hill drop to this spot and add a dynamic weapon to the passing game.
Scenario 2: Trade out. Defensive linemen such as Ta’amu and Clemson’s Brandon Thompson are not worth the pick, but moving back could allow the Niners to fill a need position with a better value, perhaps Zeitler, Silatolu or a 3-4 defensive lineman.
Scenario 3: They could elect to go with the best defender available, meaning they might get comfortable with Jenkins or look to McClellin to bring some pass-rush help opposite Aldon Smith.
Scenario 4: Reyes might not appear on the surface to be the best fit, but he’s a smart, versatile player who can pick up the system quickly and inject some youth into an aging defensive front.
Hill was the featured guest Rook on ESPN yesterday; the chances of him slipping to SF may be fading. Fleener is getting a lot of love too.
Any DL taken at #30 would have to be a real stud, so I agree not any DL will do. Konz or Zeitler could work if they’re still there. Silatolu probably won’t last until end of second round, Marvin Jones neither.
I’m reading mixed reviews on Randle; more and more favorable stuff lately but I’ve read complaints that he can’t beat press coverage. If you can’t beat press in college………..
KNBR did Ralph Barbieri dirty, and I won’t listen to KNBR anymore because of it. I assure you, first, I am no real Ralph fan, nor am I associated in anyway with any of KNBR’s competitors. Ralph’s a familiar voice in the Bay Area that we’ve all grown comfortable with, sometimes even gotten a good chuckle from. But he’s rubbed me the wrong way a number of times to the point of me turning off the radio in disgusted. Maybe that’s entertainment, I don’t know. However, that being said, the man deserved so much better than he got and it really just speaks to the symptom of a bigger problem with KNBR’s management. For those of you who didn’t read Ralph’s statement – published this morning in the SF Chronicle – Ralph said he was fired and his turnaround time from reporting to work, then leaving with a box of all his stuff was less then 30 minutes. That’s F’n cold hearted right there, boy. I won’t listen to KNBR again because of this.
Admittedly this next paragraph is a little over the top, and I don’t want to hit this one too hard, but Ralph worked for the station for 28 years and he had Parkinsons. In addition, regardless of your feelings about Ralph, Ralph helped build KNBR into what it is today. Be honest. When you think KNBR, you think the Razor and Mr T. Don’t you? I do.
So here’s a guy who helped build THE Sports Leader, has Parkinsons and you fire him and boot him in under 30 minutes and cutoff his cell in the parking lot? All that is is a reflection of KNBR’s management. It smacks of corporate greed, bailouts, ponzi schemes and everything still horribly wrong with America. I won’t listen to KNBR again. There are other ways to get your news. These companies like KNBR climb all over themselves trying to find ways to increase listenership (how come viewership is a word but listenership isn’t?) but then when the heart of the company is revealed, they fail so miserably only to have listeners with a soul or conscience run for the door. Are they really too stupid to see firing Ralph was a defining moment that creates or destroys listener loyalty? Really? Think Ralph wasn’t going public? He’s a media personality. Twenty well canvased marketing campaigns couldn’t move the amount of people KNBR just alienated by callously disgracing an employee of 28 years.
Sure, Ralph made his money. He looks to be healthy even though he has Parkinson’s. He’s not a victim. But the way you handle this is you have the most senior (old), man at the company call Ralph in and say, “Ralph, we want to go in another direction… take you off the air. We aren’t firing you, but we want to take you off the air and give you job at a pay more consistent with an off air personality.” Give Ralph outs. Let Ralph bow out on his own, saving face. Let their be a ceremony, a party – Ralph’s last day on air … let Ralph pick his way out. This axing of Ralph is so cold and disturbing, I could see Bay Area advertising dollars pulling out of any radio package that has KNBR associated with it. I know if I had a Bay Area business, I wouldn’t want my name associated with KNBR. The listener might think my business cold and heartless, too. Withtout conscience, apart of corporate greed. Guilt by association. Either that our I’d fear the consumer thought I wasn’t a detailed owner, neglecting how my business represented itself on all fronts.
And it’s right, too. There should be a fallout from this. The listener has the ability or the right to turn the channel. All those Bay Area stations try so hard to compete for your ears. Instant Karma’s gonna get you. Didn’t Billy Joel write that… right before he drove into that living room? Anyway… We can’t control much anymore. Our politicians are more corrupt than the Gambino family. Big Business bends the middle man over regularly. The IRS has plans on your house. Your ex wife is in the Caribbean with her new lover, somehow on your nickle. Right now they are drunk and toasting you for footing the bill. Your dog is gay and won’t eat anything but Fancy Feast (not that there’s anything wrong with that). At some point you have say, “Damn it, I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore.”
To fight back, you aren’t going to bring down our politicians. They have a pretty big freakin’ army they will use against us. Ask the kids at UC Davis. Your ex wife was a bitch anyway. But big business and advertising dollars …. there’s the weak underbelly of the entire system. That’s where you kick ‘em in the berry carriage. I won’t listen to KNBR anymore. Why? Because corporate greed needs to start caring about its employees once again. It hasn’t for ten or twenty years now. I used to love KNBR podcasts. Never again.
* My editor is currently on vacation with your ex wife…
Just a bit of humor, KNBR’s station manager and program director is Lee HAMMER.
@Spitblood:
John Lennon wrote and recorded Instant Karma.
No way… get outta here…. Billy Joel wrote Instant Karma and sold it to the Beattles. FACT!
Claude,
Are you sure about that? I thought Billy Joel wrote Instant Karma, too. I also believe he wrote Revolution, I am the Walrus, and Strawberry Fields Forever. People often get this mixed up. Lennon sang the songs, but it was Joel doing the writing.
Spit,
You’re totally right about Billy Joel writing “Instant Karma”. Claude is rarely wrong, but he’s off on this.
One point you are mistaken on, “Instant Karma” was a John Lennon solo recording, not the Beattles.
Have you ever heard that many of Elvis Costello’s, Tom Petty and the HB’s, and Bob Dylan’s songs were written by Captain Kangaroo? I’ve heard this rumor, and long suspected it to be true, but have never had an substantiation. Do you know anything about this?
Tommy T had a hard time when he first came on the air. He fought back tear for over two minutes. Sad for sure.
None of us know what went on behind closed doors. Ralph B can be a prick too. For all we know KNBR tried to ease him into retirement and Barbieri didn’t like the terms. Who knows.
What I do know is business is business. Large corporations are not sensitive entities. While I wish Barbieri well, I didn’t enjoy him much as an on air personality. I prefer more of a hardcore sports on air person, preferably someone who’s been in the trenches. Not a fake Skip Bayless type but someone who really played. They carry much more credibility.
Like I said, transition and change are difficult. I wish Ralph and his family well.
Can someone please italicize that and let Claude know he is dealing with a crowd that doesn’t like made up information please.
Ex Golfer,
Thank you for correcting me. Somewhere in the back of my mind I knew Instant Karma was a Lennon song. I strive for accuracy. “Claude is rarely wrong?” He was wrong yesterday about BPA, then tried to cover his tracks with muddy water. Now he doesn’t know the origin of Instant Karma. I don’t know about that dude.
Were you comparing the geneous of Billy Joel to Captain Kangaroo? Seriously? Next you’re going to tell me Huey Lewis and the News didn’t get a Nobel Peace Prize for touching the lives of some many with, “Doing it all for my baby.”
@bay:
Can someone please italicize that and let Claude know he is dealing with a crowd that doesn’t like made up information please.
Done.
Bay,
You’re priceless. Do you think you could’ve inserted any more insults in a “Happy Trails” send off?
C’mon Bay, Bayless was a mini Pistol Pete back in high school. ; )-
Spit,
I was going to let your insistance that “genius” is spelled “geneous” go, but you so blatantly used it again in your last post. Get a dictionary [not the bizarro dictionary, you apparently are using, but a real one] and look up “genius”. If you want to waste your time, you can try and look up “geneous”, too.
Spit,
You’re right, comparing Billy Joel to Captain Kangaroo was a bit harsh, I should’ve gone with Mr. Rogers.
Jack,
I want to see if YouTube has Steven A confronting Bayless on that. It’s got to be priceless.
Ex, it was actually Jalen Rose, and yes it is priceless…
For your viewing pleasure..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkpcKvxK7tg
Ex Gofer,
I looked up the word geneous, spelled my way, and it had a picture of a dude with blueish-purple hair. I’m tellin’ you, Ex Gofer, I am the penultimate geneous.
“Freeze Ex Gofer!!!! “
Varmint poontang…
Spit,
How modest of you to call yourself the penultimate genius.
BTW, If you’re only the penultimate genius, who’s the ultimate genius?
Sorry, here is the right link…
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0xJX16UJDho
Mrs. Crane, I’m looking at you.
http://www.carlspackler.com/sounds.html
Ex Gofer, Freeze…. stop right there. Penultimate means second to last. So yeah, I’m modest. Thank you for stumbling backward into my modesty.
Correct me if I’m wrong, Claude Balls. But if we demoralize all the ex gofers, they’re gonna lock me up and trow away da key.
Jack,
Of course it was Jalen Rose, my bad. Thanks for the clip. I heard Bayless spouted off more about his HS career and it was revealed, by Rose, that Bayless played JV as a JR and was a deep bench scrub on the Varstiy team as a senior. Bad information.
“who’s the ultimate genius?”
Super Stan, with Claude following a close second….
Jack,
Thanks, that’s the good stuff. I actually played golf with Skip Bayless just by chance in San Jose, years ago. A buddy and I were just about to tee off at Cinnabar Hills, when up walked Skip Bayless. He seemed like an OK guy, relatively quiet until drawn out, not at all over the top. He’s such an A-hole on air, that it has to be schtick.
BayAreaFanatic – There’s no doubt in my mind, Ralph could be a prick. You can tell just listening to him that a negotiation might not go well. So what? That’s on management to keep the disgruntled from blowing up the factory. In today’s America, we have divisions or special fractions of companies with consultants all designed around firing people when all people really want is a dignified exit. “Get your sheat and go,” isn’t dignified, but it speaks to the lawyers taking over the process. If your company is that cold-hearted, I won’t do business with you or patronize your company. And you can counter with, “It’s the 21 century and we all need to adjust.” To that I say, “horse cookies.” F KNBR. F ‘em.
That was exactly my feeling when the 49ers let Joe go to the Chiefs.
I went to the head to head matchup and wanted the 49ers to get crushed by the Joe led Chiefs. I loved it when Derrick Thomas crushed Steve Young.
I understand that anger trust me. And yes, Ralph deserved a much better exit. It does have legal stamped all over it.
There are a lot of personalities that I really like at KNBR and I am not going to stop listening to them just because the parent company is cold blooded in their firing tactics.
Well, I’m not going to tell you what you should or shouldn’t do with your tastes regarding sports news, but you should rethink your thoughts. I’m not going to be so presumptuous to try and impose my beliefs on others, but you really haven’t thought it through. Tom Tolbert crying for two minutes? Come on. I, too, remember Tolbert really struggling in his first year and Ralph carrying the load, but if Tolbert had any nutz, he’d get up and walk out with Ralph. Loyalty is important in business, so is character. TT don’t have any character. There’s no crying in radio. Hey Claude, what’s the first part of that quote from? “There’s no crying in [baseball].” That’s right, Apollo 13.
In the Sunday SF Chronicle section “Datebook” Ben Fong-Torres writes an article called “Radio Waves” that usually has very good insight into the local radio world happenings. I’m sure more info will surface.
Do-in’ it …. do-in’ it…..
Spit,
I’m right there with you. Issue is, we don’t know what went down.
Let me give you a hypothetical. KNBR comes to TT and says, we are letting your partner go a few months early. You are going to run the show and we are bumping you up from $200K to $275K.
Now TT isn’t happy that his partner is being let go, but he also realizes that his pay is now in the top 2% of Bay Area sports personalities. He also realizes that his partners health is in decline and his partner is also over 65.
That’s why I never react when I am pissed. Except when I see #11 undercenter…..
There’s no doubt in my mind TT got more money. That’s why the crying is pathetic. He was crying because he benefited from his mentor’s demise. I remember when Tolbert was the annoying one in that pair, and that’s saying something. I think the right thing for TT to do would have been to take a pass on the entire debate until all the details emerged publically. And trust me, they will. Then he should stand firmly behind Ralph who carried his jock and basically showed him the ropes for a few years. TT should have said nothing, then eventually, when speaking about the situation, be critical of his employer if warranted (and it’ll be warranted). If they want to fire him too, he could go to another radio station with Ralph. Either way, crying on air wasn’t the answer, that’s for sure. KNBR will suffer for their lack of class.
@Spitblood:
Sorry, but I thought you actually didn’t know who wrote Instant Karma. Can you blame me though? You pull so much stuff out of your backside, it’s hard to know when you want to be taken seriously and when you are just trying to get a reaction.
I’ll figure it out eventually.
what fun would that be?
Yoko Ono is on the B-Side.
I’m sorry , I meant Christie Brinkley is on the B-Side.
Christie Brinkley broke up the Beattles….. and Queen (fight over shoes).
I was a Rutles fan (http://www.rutles.org/)
Never much cared for the other guys.
never knew of the Rutles… huge fan now though.
Grant,
Do you just like Milking a Story for days on end OR…
Are you always looking to break your own Record on how many Knuckleheads can post on 1 Article?
For God’s sakes can you move on to something new?
Like what?
Like what?
Like ANY of the 49er Prospects in the Draft, preferably in the first 3 rounds. How about that?
That’s a lot of prospects there. Why don’t you list the prospects you like in the first three rounds and why you think that they would be a good fit? And I mean all of your prospects, not just two or three. It’s not as easy as you make it to be.
F49er, “Like ANY of the 49er Prospects in the Draft, preferably in the first 3 rounds.”
You obviously haven’t been paying much attention to the board lately….
Midwest & Jack,
You’ve missed my whole point evidently….
There’s plenty to talk about between now & the Draft & Grant is sitting on his hands for days without a new Subject.
That’s my point.
Nothing new to post? I can’t believe three days later I still see this Cosell entry at the top of the page…
He might be working on his new mock draft. If so, I can’t wait to see how he has it now.
As my Post above…
Time to move on Grant!
There isn’t much news out there right now.
Last year’s Sports Illustrated comments on Kilgore:
Positives: “Nasty small-area blocker who attacks assignments. Quick off the snap, sets with a wide base, and bends his knees. Gets underneath opponents, jolts them with terrific pop at the point of attack, and blocks with great leverage. Powerful and finishes run blocks. Keeps his feet moving, turns defenders off the line, and attacks assignments. Plays with great quickness and explosiveness.”
Negatives: “Lacks the height, agility, and footwork to stay at the left tackle spot. Must do a better job getting his hands into defenders and extending them. Must improve his overall blocking balance.”
Analysis: Kilgore impressed scouts as a senior with his approach to the game and competitiveness. He’s better off in confined quarters and will have a future in the NFL if he improves the details of his position and learns the block with consistent balance.
Projection: 6th
Nice article, George…Thanks
Anytime. We laymen have very limited information about any of these college players, so who knows how any of them will turn out in the pros. But if the analyst at SI was on target, Kilgore might have been quite a pick. We’ll see. Here’s what SI said about Aldon Smith before last year’s draft:
Positives: “Explosive game-changing player with incredible upside. Athletic and very quick in all his actions. Immediately changes direction, displays speed out to the flanks and effective in pursuit. Flashes on the scene out of nowhere and plays with suddenness. Bends his knees, gets off the snap with a quick first step, and fires through the small openings of the offensive line. Plays assignment football, remains disciplined, and does more than just aimlessly rush up the field. Can drop off the line and make plays in space. Fluid moving in reverse.”
Negatives: Lacks natural bulk and can be turned off the line by a single blocker on running downs. Must improve the use of his hands and do a better job using them to protect himself.
Analysis: “Smith arrived on the scene in 2009 and made an immediate impact in the Big 12 as one of the league?s better defenders. He possesses terrific size and growth potential and has the versatility to be used in a variety of positions. Smith is an athletic player who makes a tremendous amount of plays in the box and up the field, and he will quickly produce in the NFL for a creative defensive coordinator who puts him in positions to be successful.”
Projection: 1st
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/draft-2011/players/82803.html#ixzz1rrXqFZXZ
Mr. Kilgore you must take your game to the next level and solidify the line at the RG position. We believe in you and more importantly Mr. Solari believes in you evidently. Go baby go!!
Thank you for having faith Razor. I won’t let you or my teammates down.
Holy Christ. This blog’s awesome. Lol.
Here’s another interesting article about the 30th pick:
http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2012/04/mr-popular-49ers-one-of-many-interested-in-g-silatolu.html
Impressive. I would not be disappointed if he was the pick however if it comes down to him or Fleener I have to go with Fleener.
Agree with you 100% Razor.
Coby Fleener is sure getting a lot of love. I think the big reason I really hate this time of year is because most of the draft voices are new – every year there’s a new crop of voices, hoping to gain NFL draft guru traction. Sure, there’s the McShays and Kipers and Mayocks, but after that the “experts” come and go. Bucky Brookes gives me diarrhea. In addition, after each round it’s like the draft experts take their mocks off line. One year someone’s going to make a little money writing an article about who was the most accurate with their mocks. That’s the issue for me – accuracy. I can’t stand Walter Football’s mocks. I think whomever does those is completely out to lunch. It’s one thing to grade the players, it’s another thing to anticipate their value based on the entire NFL landscape – supply and demand. What really throws a monkey wrench into everything is the trades. Trades almost let the “experts” off the hook. Almost.
I really have no clue this year who the 49ers are going to take with their first selection. I know what I want – an offensive play maker. Last year was a gravy year. Nobody saw the 49ers going to the NFC Championship game, nobody. But this year, the ole’ Alex Smith 3 ‘n out is gonna get old with a quickness. Regardless of my thoughts on Alex, the 49ers need an electric offensive weapon. I love Kendal Hunter, and I finally warmed up to VD after his amazing playoff run, but the 49ers are still lacking offensive electricity. I hope they go with an offensive skill player in the first, and I hope Baalke finds us someone fun to watch.
And how is Fleener not an electric player? Please explain.
Surely you jest.
Spitblood,
Can you describe your definition of a offensive electricity player?
And which player(s) in your opinion quailifies for that label?
No that is “electric offensive weapon”-a stun gun?How accurate are they,someone call N.O.!
*qualifies*
@ Grant-
Its too early to do so now, but hopefully we’ll see from you a Final Grant Mock around 4/23 with any last minute changes you have from your earlier Mock, or, courageously, no changes from your earlier mock. Lots of sports media jabber about people moving up or down lately, but mostly just seems like noise.
glad you are not g.m. for niners.if fleener is there at #30 a good pick. if not trade back and get a good gaurd.
Kilgore will be an upgrade over Snyder. The Niners should not and will not draft a guard first in this draft.
Whats with Storify? is that another sports blog Grant? or in general,like what your favorite pancake recipe is?
Grant, quick question. If Kilgore is an upgrade over Snyder as you suggest, why would they draft another G? They have Person, and Chisolm already there to compete for that spot.
To compete with Person, perhaps.