If you haven’t heard Gregg Williams abhorrent, vile, criminal rant he gave before the Niners-Saints playoff game, I’m linking to it here. Warning – the audio is profane and disturbing.
Michael Silver broke the story this morning. He’s a great reporter, and the NFL is a more honest institution because of him. Thank you, Michael.
Williams needs to be banned for life and brought up on criminal chargers. Sean Payton and Mickey Loomis, too.
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I just heard it myself. My blood is still boiling listening to them talk about our guys like that. Especially what he said about Crabtree.
Yeah, it’s shocking.
I actually laughed at the Crabtree part (Not the ACL comment ((which is total B.S.)), but the Diva comment). #15 needs to really step it up this year.
Makes me sick to my stomach. I love this team and the players and would be extremely angered if any of them actually got seriously injured from that game.
GW ‘s career must over as an NFL Coach.Personally any rationalizations of this behavior as normal(bounties,targeting of specific body targets which could be career ending,etc) by nudge nudge wink wink it happens all the time apologists is absurd. Anybody see Randy Cross’ response,worse than the white wine slagging of 49er fans(if he had said red ….), what a jackass.
Hightop, I posted my mock 4.0 draft on the previous article – damn you missed it!
Did Donte Whitner get a copy of this speech before the actual game. Certainly appeared to me that the Saints were the ones who were in need of stretchers and smelling salts…… hahaha…..go Niners.
Is this really shocking? When the mentality as stated by Vincent T. Lombardi is, “Winning isn’t everything, it’s the only thing”, this becomes acceptable behavior. I played a little ball in my youth and coaches always “targeted” the opposing teams best players. You always gave the play-makers hits to see if they could take it. If they backed down you had them. I’m sure every big time program in pro and college use the same tactics.
The only problem is that the media got hold of this and ran it in for a touchdown. When the Saints blitzed the 49ers in the first pre-season game last year my thinking was that the Saints were not playing in the spirit of sportsmanship. Belichick, Josh McDaniels, Payton to name a few, view winning and losing as life and death.
Bill Walsh brought a sense of class to the 49er organization. They won with brains but still played tough football. What this present age of the aforementioned coaches brings is a marked sense of no class.
i am so angry after listing to this guy. NFL must ban him for life
Funny how I can still remember looking at Williams on the sideline while Alex was carving up his ferocious defense in the last 2 minutes of that Playoff game.
The Irony is that Williams talked like a Tough Guy in that audio the night begore the game but the last time I saw him he looked like a Little Weasel!
Wow that guy should be ban from the NFL
disgrace to the league
The timing of this couldn’t be better. Goodell doesn’t have to say a word today at the appeal hearing, just point to the audio of Williams.
I agree with you Grant, get these people out of football. All of them.
Wouldn’t it be great if Goodell said something like, “in light of recent evidence we’ve decided to double the penalties against you guys and we are now taking away your entire 2012 draft.”
Now that would actually be fitting.
+1 couldn’t agree more. Doubt it would happen, but more should happen. Take away the SB trophy too.
After the preseason game I was pissed. I’m really glad we knocked them out of the playoffs. I thought the lions were bad.
This is unbelievable they should be in jail
Seems like a slap on the wrist for everyone other than GW. Will this change RG’s penalty ruling with this bad press for the NFL??
First off I dont condone anything that Williams said or did, he should never be able to coach again in the NFL!
Gregg Williams says: “We need to decide whether Crabtree wants to be a fake ass prima donna or he wants to be a tough guy,”
I think that game we found out exactly what Crabtree decided to be.
Well the last 3 quarters we did FDM. MC was awesome in the first quarter. Gotta give him that.
But much more so in the title game. No way were the Giants going to be stupid enough to let VD beat them, even though he did for 2 TD’s on 5 throws in his direction.
MC also had 5 passes go his way. He never got open but once, and then didn’t do anything with it when he did catch it. Despite single coverage ALL game long.
BS, I mean DS, I mean BS,
The pass was 3 feet over his head. By the time crabtree came down, the defender was in front of him. @ others were at his ankles. 2 others got batted at the line of scrimmage. Yeah, sunds like Crabtree’s fault. That’s why we went after Peyton Manning in the off season instead of Larry Fitzgerald!
Shut up Jordan, who gives a rip about Crabtree or Smith. If you can’t stay on the topic of the post move along. This is way more serious than the hate you and DS have for Crabtree and Smith.
Stay away 23J
Jack,
Who the hell do you think you are. You need to disappear from this blog trying to regulate it punk. You’re wating your time trying to control me or this blog. Go to hell punk!
Bs, I mean DS,
It’s time for that long needed vacation. Just for 1 day!! Can you do that. Take Jack Wagon with you!
Hey Jordo, “You’re wating your time trying to control me or this blog.”
Yes, I am wating my time with you : ). BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Jack Hammer – you need to change you handle to Jack Off.
Hey . that’s a good one! Very original.
FDM, way to take a cheap shot at Crabtree under such a serious matter. You have shown your true colors as a 49er fan.
I’m sure you are very proud of yourself (sad indeed).
Its not a cheap shot AES and its no different than anyone else on here who takes shots/comments at Alex every single day. Why so sensitive?
I actually like Crabtree, I think he will improve with a full offseason and participation in OTA’s.
I have always said that the playoffs reveal the elite athletes from the average and based on Crabtree’s playoff experience, he has been below average. The real players show up when its pressure time, he did not, can you deny that?
It shows a lot. It shows that guys around the league DO perceive MC as a prima donna. It shows that AS is perceived as prone to being overcome by pressure, and wilting. It shows that KH & KW are both respected for their ability but targeted due to their obvious frailties, that Gore is perceived as the heart of the team.
–
Many already perceived this. Many others like to defend MCs virtue while trying to dispel the diva label. Still others like to try to say that Alex is rock-solid, not a happy-footed, nervous-nelly pocket Lillyputian.
–
Whatever the truth is, now we know for a FACT what the other teams in the league think of our guys, assuming GWs perceptions are widespread.
I feel like we (fans) are like family and we can take some shots at the guys – like we do with Alex and Crabs and everyone else – but if this SOB in NOLA does it, I want to pop him in the mouth.
>>AS is perceived as prone to being overcome by pressure, and wilting.
Perceived? Yes. But then he had the game of his career thus far even with Williams sending 5 or more on 60% of the plays.
Adam,
Lol. That reminds me of the part in Hot Tub Time Machine where they are describing their buddy. The guy says, “It’s like that friend who’s an a$$hole. He’s OUR a$$hole.”
Are we really going to re-visit the AS and MC issues yet again? Who cares what GW said of AS and MC he is done. This is a new year and arrows are up for both MC and AS.
Now on to better 9er specific issues like the draft. Will it be a DL, WR, TC…???!!!
So basically Pork your saying perception is reality?
I think Crabtree is young and was not ready for the big stage. He will be better.
Alex like every QB in the league struggles with pressure and for KW and KH, again both young guys that will take the playoff experience and grow with confidence tremendously.
There is nothing like a playoff experience that enables athletes to grow and mature. They say its the equivalance of playing an extra 2 years. You gain a hunger and a confidence to get back and try and win a championship. You become battled tested and that expereince for the young 49ers last year will only serve them well moving forward.
“It’s like that friend who’s an a$$hole. He’s OUR a$$hole.”
Exactly!!
I feel like we do it so much around here it’s kind of expected and almost accepted really but coming from outside? Not tolerated. Don’t say a thing about our guys on offense! :P
Did anybody at the game see the Saints D take some shots(legal or illegal) at Crabtree during the first half? I’m just wondering because it could explain why Crabtree disappeared in the playoffs. I thought it was his skill set, but after William’s sickening comments I’m not so sure.
@FDM
Classless
@Nickrow
Why? Because I think Crabtree didnt show up?
@FDM
“I think that game we found out exactly what Crabtree decided to be.”
Must be something in this sentence. I don’t see “classless” at all though.
Thats just Nick being an a hole because if it were a slight against Alex, he would be clapping his hands. If you read further I give my opinion on Crabtree as a player. Frickin hypocrites around here!
FDM, Your point is valid, but this was a poor time to bring it up. Just like it would be wrong to bring up Smith’s perception here.
Jack, it is interesting to see you suggest to FDM it is a bad time to bring up MC, yet anytime someone (Jordo) writes a negative AS off topic comment we don’t hear from you. Hmm.
Hofer,
I have no problem with what FDM said, I just think it is out of place with this topic. I would say the same thing to Jordan or anyone else who tried to bring up Smith based on the topic of this post. Hmmmm…
>>I would say the same thing to Jordan or anyone else who tried to bring up Smith based on the topic of this post.
Not likley there, Jack. It sounds like Williams, wanting his players to cheap shot Smith out of the game, was giving more credit to Smith than a lot of the fans here.
@FDM
It sounds to me that you’re more of an Alex Smith fan than a Niner fan. So go support your two heros: Alex Smith and Gregg Williams.
You’re back tracking faster than Usain Bolt doesn’t change anything.
@DS
And the sidekick comes to the rescue. Or have I been correct all along that you and FDM are the same person double posting? Way to go Deep Space 9.
@Nick
“classless”
Well, it took awhile, but that post is now appropriate. With your post at 2:08.
I simply asked what “classless” thing did FDM say. And your response was, well, “classless”.
At the very least I know reading comprehension is actually a problem you have. Can you grow up now?
@DS
I haven’t been impressed with Crabtree either, but that was the not the way nor the place to do as FDM did. That answers your question, doesn’t it? Also, you mentioned in your own words that DS9 stands for Deep Space 9. So go figure.
Nick, Old Coach made your position as well as mine on this pretty clear. DS, this is for you and FDM:
“i think its time for everyone to put aside their dislike for crabtree and smith and discuss a serious issue for at least a few minutes. crabtree and smiths abilities or lack there of dont mean anything after listening to greg williams criminal tirade. lets put aside our petty differences at least regarding this post.”
@nick
A few days ago you wrote a post about AS helping to find a lost child, then in the same post put him down as a player.
Some here took offense to that, and expressed that to you. I did not.
Why? Because I was able to seperate what you thought of the guy personally (liked him) from a player (don’t like him). As you know, I disagree strongly with the last part, but you have the right to your opinion, and you didn’t break one of my rules of hating the guy, so I let it pass.
I was able to see you seperate your opinions of what you thnk of him as a person vs. player, and I respected that.
Now look at FDM’s post. He opened up saying that he hated what Williams said (like MC personally) but did not like his play in the playoffs (his job).
That is what I find very upsetting with your remark. You and FDM wrote essentially the same thing on a blog unrelated to MC playoff performance (FDM) and AS helping to find a lost girl (you). Yet you call him “classless” for doing the same thing you did. Which again, I didn’t have a problem with what you did, or FDM.
I don’t care about your comment about Deep Space 9. It is one hell of a great show, so I’d encourage people to Netflix it instead off watching all this reality BS on TV now. It makes you think and care about easily 20+ characters by the end as opposed to most shows which cast only 5-8.
Stop with the nonsense DS, who gives a rip about Crabtree or Smith. If you can’t stay on the topic of the post move along. This is way more serious than the personal feelings you, Nick or anyone else has about a particular player.
@Jack
I gave my opinion on this matter a lot. Go read it. Both here and the last blog.
My last post was explaining why I thought it was a double standard. You of course didn’t read it though.
And you are not my boss, my mother (though you act like you are) or anybody else that has any power over me. Stop your deal of “staying on topic”. You don’t even want to actually discuss anything with me anyway. So, why would I bother listening to you. Huh?
“who gives a rip about Crabtree or Smith.”
Well, if you are a Niner fan, or a human being you do. Read my post and you will see that I actually do care for both before you try to lecture me on “manners”. Something you have told me flat out you don’t care for.
DS, the performance level or lack thereof has no place in this discussion.
FDM: This is not about Crabtree leave that for another time. This about a coward of a coach that should be banned for life. I can’t understand why the the owner dosen’t fire all of them for embaressing his team like this.
Because he apparently knew about it as well. That’s my opinion anyway.
But you know all of us snicker a bit when thinking of how that game turned out. They weren’t even close to the best defense on the field and they were fearing US after their first drive. Thank you Donte Whitner. That was game changing and set the tone.
Multiply everything bad I’ve said about the Saints and the bounty system times 1000. Anyone that says that this is just a part of the game is a should be ashamed of themself. If you have to hurt another player to make up for your shoddy football ability then why are you on the field. If thats just the “nature of the game” then why don’t we just hire a bunch of thugs off the street and give them crow bars.
Pathetic. Any player that has participated in or accepts this behavior, is an embarassment to the game and less of a human being.
Thanks Grant.
I heard the audio earlier this morning. The only question remaining now should be what type of penalty should fit the crime? The integrity of the NFL will suffer if there is not harsh disciplinary actions.
G.Williams better be praying that the players he targeted don’t press criminal charges. One thing should be absolutely clear, GW’ NFL career is over for all intent and purposes.
My only hope is that this (bounty) is not a dark and secret issue prevelent in the NFL.
He could have said a lot of things… football is a violent sport and that’s why we love it so much. With that said… you can’t tell your players you’ll pay them to take out someones ACL. Hit Gore in the head all you want… hit someone in the pile… it happens. But this was over the top
Until I heard this tape, I really felt like Spygate was the bigger scandal but that the Patriots got off lightly. This is horrific. I now feel like the punishments handed out should have been worse. It’s amazing how the spirit of competition can mutate into unchecked hatred and cheating. What a terrible example they’ve put forth.
It’s just one step from career-threatening or life-threatening.
I was joking around a few weeks ago when I suggested that Tonya Harding take over this season as the Saints’ DC. But now that I think about it, there’s really no difference between Harding convincing her dipsh_t boyfriend to take out Nancy Kerrigan and Greg Williams convincing his players to go out and TRY to put people on the IR.
This just gets more sickening as we go along.
Imagine the lawsuits from the retired players just got some more ammo.
Payton 5 yr suspension for knowing about it and lying (was not in room when williams gave speech so unsure if he is aware of williams verbage)
Williams indef suspension for all sports/criminal charges. backgrouns on how many players injured (if they were) be it mild or carreer ending durin all his coaching tenure
Strip owner of team and do what the mlb did ….. buy it and then sell to a legit owner who cam create a good org.
The only problem I have with what was said is when he refers to illegal acts on players. The rest is just football. Intimidation, respect, profanity. It is all part of the game folks. Always has been and always will be. I want my defense trying to take out the opponents QB. I want to see him hit, smashed and broken. Anyone on the opposing team is the enemy and needs to be defeated in battle. Within the rules and with a desire for victory in their hearts not intentional injury.
I agree with you 100%. Anyone who has played the game even at HS level knows that it’s us vs them. Whoever hits the hardest wins. But you can’t say here’s money for taking out MC’s ACL. That’s like Dude from Karate Kid telling him to sweep the leg and take him out.
I agree.
I agree completely with Razor and Benny !
Williams should be banned for life . And I find it hard to believe that the HC and all the assistants and the GM and maybe even the owner had never heard these types of speeches at least once in the last couple of years,and nobody put a stop to it,even though they had been warned by the Commish and had promised to stop. A year suspension for the HC and GM is not enough. It should be indefinate,like Williams suspension is and it should now be MAYBE after a year you can come back,MAYBE.
If I were Payton I would cancel my appeal meeting today and just take what was already handed down and be VERY happy that is all I am getting !
@Tim
Remove 10 years worth of 1st round draft picks. And no way to trade/get one in any other way.
This was an organizational failure. The organization should be punished. That way no organization will ever try this again.
You can hire a new GM/HC and life goes on. To leave a footprint though, the organization must pay with that which is most important. #1 draft picks. A lot of them.
You need to make certain that this never happens again. That no team will ever try to do this in a more stealthy way. Which they could and get away with it as things stand. You can’t wire-tap every phone and cell and future communication device to pevent a coach from telling a player to go for AS head. You can only create a punishment so severe that if any team did this and they got caught, that team would basically collapse for a long, long time. Making it an unworthy risk to advance one more game or to win a Super Bowl.
Absolutely right, Benny.
No coach from Pee Wee and Pop Warner on up tells his team to go hit guys in the knees or pile drive a player in to the ground with the idea that you’re going to cripple him.
Never.
Playing tough and dominating the other team is one thing but no player with any sense of respect goes out and tries to take guys out of the game (hell even for the simple fact that whatever you do out there usually comes back to you five times over.)
Take a guy out by getting in his head but not by trying to cripple him.
This is a terrible example for younger athletes. Guys (and girls) who get hurt at the lower levels of any sport don’t necessarily have the big fancy gyms and rehab therapists to get them walking right again let alone play.
I agree 100% with you Tim. I think the owner should be banned for a year as well though. This was a failure from top-to-bottom with the Saints. Benson should be held accountable as well.
with all that is going on with the saints, it should be easier for 49ers to advance to the nfc championship in 2012.
I also completely agree with Grant’s call for punishment. With the steps the league has tried to make to mitigate the concussion epidemic, could Willaims et al be any more clueless? No, scratch that, clueless would give them an out. Criminal – there’s no other way to put it.
Lifetime ban – if Williams is lucky. Payton? One year for lying & what in addition?
NFL is being sued right & left for concussions. They’d like to sweep this under the rug, but have to dish out even more than present to protect themselves.
Look at the video when Peyton Manning’s head is twisted as he’s brought down. That’s what Williams taught – kill the head.
The NFL is sweating big time – their growth is getting women & little kids to adore the game.
Williams stated over and over kill the head, that’s what should be done with Payton he’s in charge the buck stops with him.
Im afraid I agree with you. The more the NFL looks in to this the worse off it looks and if it tried to backtrack to all the teams where williams coached (Buf Was etc) and what went on there they would be exposing themselves to more scrutiny and possible lawsuits from players who were targeted/injured. So i think the NFL wants to deal with this as swiftly as possible and forget about it and move on.
Also what would happen if they tried to discipline players who were suposedly involved in this when they played for Was and Buf . C Rogers already confirmed that while he was a redskin they had a bounty system and im pretty sure D Whitner was in Buf when GW was coaching
For me its hard to pass judgement on anyone then Williams. I havnt enough knowledge about Peyton and others to come up with a sentence. But what Williams did was way beyond football. I dont mind the cussing and telling your players to hit hard anddo the big hits but to go after specfic areas like the head or the ACL is just way off limits. To pay to injure someone is just not right. If this isnt stopped then what prevents outsiders, lets say placing bets, from contributing to the bounty. Williams needs to be band for life from any coaching at any level. From my understanding Williams had complete autonomy concerning the defense. If that is so, cant see how Peton can be liable for that. Now the GM who gave the autonomy contract could and should be. But I also have heard that part of Peytons salary went towards Williams, if that is to be true then Peyton is part of the problem. All I can say for sure is Williams sucks and their is no need for it in football and any other sport.
@undercenter
“If that is so, cant see how Peton can be liable for that.”
Remember the Niner-NO preseason game? Peyton gave the ok to Williams to blitz the whole time. You don’t do that in a regular season game.
I betcha Peyton wanted AS to get hurt. When he gave the order to “send the house” at AS and the Niners because JH didn’t discuss how the game was going to be played out with him earlier, Peyton and Williams both know what Peyton really meant.
It is like the mob boss telling his #1 goon “Take care of it.” Now, the mob boss didn’t tell the goon to kill the guy, but we all know what he meant. It is just a way to protect the boss if he is ever put to trial. To say that he only said “To take care of him”. Not to kill him or anything like that. Peyton did the same thing here with Williams. “Take care of it.”
No way are you HC and don’t know what is going on for 3 years at least! He knew.
You know I was just sitting here reflecting on that game. Do we know for sure Payton gave the go ahead for that or is that something that is just being reported. I need facts before I can come to a conclusion. I am so skeptical of the media like I am the gov. I find it hard to believe all that is said. If it is factual then hang em, hang high. I am not trying to protect Payton here I am just trying to make sure we are dealing with truths and facts. You are talking about the livelyhood of players by being hurt by the bounty program well the same thing applies to the coaches. Just got to make sure all the ducks are in a row.
Also DS I thought the Saints were chicken **** for how that pre season game was conducted.
@undercenter
It is absolute fact that JH did wonder about this pre-season phone call issue which supposedly caused Peyton to tell Williams to do what he did.
JH talked about it I think in the Year end press conference, or one of them. JH said he called up his brother John and asked him about that “gentlemens agreement” where 2 HC’s talk about how they will play the game. John had never heard of such a thing ever.
So, we know that Sean was pissed at JH for not calling him (I don’t get why Sean could not call JH though) and that after the game (maybe on the plane ride home) JH called his brother and asked him.
We don’t know factually if Peyton told Williams to “take cae of it” mafioso style. But given the evidence, he did in my mind. And if I were a juror member, I’d call Sean guilty without reasonable doubt.
Everyone is now thinking back to that game. Lombardi just mentioned that at lunch: questionable blitzes, etc.
@undercenter
I’m sure Payton knows what his staff and players eat for lunch. He had full knowledge of what Williams was doing. Williams is set up to take the hardest hit.
The NFL head coach is the resident tyrant for any particular team. I would find it very hard to believe that Payton had no idea what was going on with the defense. Look at what we know of Jim Harbaugh do you think there is any aspect of the 49ers that he isn’t aware of? Negative, I’ll bet Harbaugh knows how many socks get lost in the laundry each week. There’s no way Payton was unaware of what Williams was doing and saying.
I didnt say he didnt know, I just said I need facts before I can come to a conclusion. I am not in the Saints lockeroom, I do not rely on others to tell me what the facts are. Goodell has the facts I will wait till they come before I make a conclusion. Sorry I have seen too many innocent people screwed by people jumping to conclusions. People say so many things out of emotions that just simply arent true. If its factual that Payton knew then by all means he is as guilty as Williams as he is the man in charge.
Payton had to know what was going on, he just swept it under the rug.
My mistake guys after what I just heard out of Paytons own mouth yes he definatly did know and admitted it. Sorry I was just standing up for facts and truth. I need those before I can condem anyone and I just got it. Payton you screwed up man and you and your team are going to pay for it.
G. Williams sounds insecure to me. He wants to channel his anger through his players on the football field. What a coward. Good thing the NFL banned him from the league.
Now your fricking Dr. Phil able to assertain what people really mean through an audio clip, your an idiot!
Way to go with the name calling.
Never mind I’m not trying to be the name calling police so have at it. : )
@FDM
Angry much? You sound like an angry old man. Is Gregg Williams your hero?
FDM says:
April 5, 2012 at 11:56 am
“Now your fricking Dr. Phil able to assertain what people really mean through an audio clip, your an idiot!”
FDM, I believe you were responding to NickRow. But the audio clip is pretty damning evidence when GW ask his players to take out MC’ MCL. I can’t see any metaphors with this request.
It was a clear case of criminal intent to injure and possibly end a players career. Please note FDM; I did say a clear intent to injure and possibly end a PLAYERS career. The issue here goes far beyond what our perception of who the player may be.
Whether he is perceived as a diva, a primadonna, or commiting a disappearing act in the championship game. No player should have to worry about the possibility of having his career end because of a psychotic coach who has ignored the integrity of the game, period!
What do you think would happen if a baseball pitcher was paid by his coach to throw at the head of a batter? Dire consequences would ensue. Do pitchers throw at batter’ head sometimes? Yes. But if a pitcher were to do this for dirty money it implies criminal intent.
Greg Williams should go before a senate committee and squarm and sweat in humility the way Mark McQuire did. Also, if there are other teams secretly involved with this or any resemblence of this that he is aware of, hopefully he would be the whistle blower during this senate investigation so that this never happens again.
AES, we don’t need the politicians in the middle of this…there answer to steroids problem was to make one person the poster child in the steroid era and blame him for all of baseball. They spent millions trying to build their case – what a wast of money. It was crap.
*their*
*waste*
To play this game you have to lose it, from a mental standpoint. Controlled violence, controlled craziness, is how you stay in the boundaries. Once you go beyond those lines, dare I say, a criminal element surfaces.
i think its time for everyone to put aside their dislike for crabtree and smith and discuss a serious issue for at least a few minutes. crabtree and smiths abilities or lack there of dont mean anything after listening to greg williams criminal tirade. lets put aside our petty differences at least regarding this post
OldCoach:
I don’t want Alex as the long term QB for my team,I want a better QB,BUT I CERTAINLY don’t want to have the job taken away from him because of an injury,especially not an injury that was caused on purpose . Alex deserves the right to compete and the chance to show what he has on the football field without having a target on his head and knees . Injuries happen ,it’s a tough game .Alex has shown to be pretty tough himself(and so has Crabs!),but this bounty stuff is simply wrong and goes way beyond sport and being tough and hitting hard etc..
FDM, bad parallel. I don’t believe any bloggers here have put a bounty on Alex.
Alex was also part of the bounty when Williams said they needed to hit him in the chin, what’s your point? Everyone on the Niners was a target, specifically Alex, Gore, and Vernon. Pretty sure the intent in all those comments was to injure. It does not matter if money was paid or not, its the intent to injure thats the problem!
Yes FDM, it does matter if monies were invloved. Why? Because it crosses the line! Players get hurt all the time in almost any sport. But when an injury occurs for the pupose of bounty pay, it is an act of premeditated criminal intent. Simply put; it is organized crime.
@AES
The idea of going out to hurt somebody is the crime.
If they didn’t get paid any extra to do what the coaches told them, does that make the action any less repulsive?
I don’t think so. Not one bit. Money or not.
Organized crime may or may not pay extra to the guy doing the hit. It may just be “loyalty” or up-holding the family position, and no money is really exchanged. Does that make it a non-crime if no money exchanged between the two parties beyond the persons basic “pay”?
@DS
Look at baseball, pitchers used to brush players off the plate so they could’t dig in. Don Drysdale got to the HOF with that approach. But now you throw at a batter and after a warning you’re thrown out of the game. I guess we’re becoming more civilized.
@Andrew
I’m thinking getting hit in football by guys who can run as fast as the fastest people in the world could run about 50 years ago, and have the chiseled bodies of Mr. Universes about 50 years ago as well can do more damage to you than a single baseball can.
In baseball, it is only the impact of the baseball that harms you (relatively small at that). In football, it is the hit of the helmet, arm, leg, impact on the ground, plus all the other guys friends coming along to pile on (relatively spread out all over your whole body).
No comparison at all. This type of bounty is a lot more serious than a single pitcher throwing far inside to get them to move off the plate.
If you have the chance, look at my NEWSHOUR link in the last two of Grant’s blogs about children playing football. There is a bit where the helmet of these little pee-wee kids takes the punishment of force equal to that of a 90mph fast ball in certain situations.
So, a little kid is receiving the same force (in g’s) on the football field as a pro baseball player does when he gets hit with a fastball at 90mph (or CK in high school). That is dramatically different. Kids at that age can’t come close to throwing a fast ball at 90mph. But they can suffer the same type of punishment on the football field in the pee-wee game as a pro baseball player. Only thing, that force is applied to the neck/head region and little kids don’t have not developed the muscles to support their neck like an adult or high school kid has.
And when you reach the pro game, that 80g force is pretty much the norm for many plays on the football field. To continue using your baseball analogy, it would be like the pitcher is ALWAYS throwing the ball and hitting the batter almost every time up.
Haha, you never know. The “Alice” crowd is cracked.
I put an extra quarter in the church plate and prayed the 49ers would sign Manning. Does that count as a bounty on Alex?
As long as you didn’t pray for Smith to get hurt I’d say no.
Wow, im also upset at all these 49ers fans taking shots at our players for something an idiot said before the game, I know Crabtree is gonna have a break year, just like I said last year that A. Smith would have a good year. I really thought that the comments would be all towards GW, I guess I was wrong.
I have no problem with Williams speech. Every college and pro DC has the exact same “war” speech with his players pre game. I’ve been in a locker room receiving that speech. It’s meant to whip you into a frenzy. “Us against them”. I do however draw the line on the ACL comment and the monetary bounty.
Most of the speech not shocking though. Normal nfl culture.
I too bay have heard many, but I had never heard going after a concussed persons head before or going after an ACL and of course never of heard of bounty before. The rest of it was just typical get in thier face talk, I see nothing wrong with it.
Not only the ACL comment but the concussion, Gore, and Vernon comments. C’mon Bay back the 49ers.
Bay, dude if you don’t have a problem with his speech then the ACL and Concussion comments shouldn’t faze you. I mean it’s the same speech every Coach gives, right?
I have a HUGE problem with it. Not a single one of my Coaches from the time I was old enough to strap on my first helmet to the time I stopped playing in High School ever gave a WAR speech like that. I’ve heard some pretty strong vernacular in the Locker Room regarding the other team, but in the end they expected me and my teammates to treat our opponents with respect. Where was THAT in his speech?
And after being TOLD by the NFL that they’re being investigated??? I wonder if you own or run a business. How would you handle this after you EXPLICITLY told them to dial it back? Sorry Bay, you an I do agree occasionally but this one is just rank with the smell of excrement.
I agree with you on this one Ceadder ! No place for that in sport. If a player gets hurt because he was hit hard legally while the defender was trying to make a legit tackle,then that just means it is a tough game. But targeting people to get hurt by tearing up their knees or trying to turn their brain into jelly and ruin their lives,is waaaaay too far to go .
I don’t have an issue with the general “let’s go out there and hit ‘em hard” parts. The “we don’t apologize for how we play” and all that.
But calling out specific players and targeting specic body parts to injure? That’s way out of line. And then offering money for an illegal hit? That’s borderline criminal.
That’s pretty much how I look at it too. There’s being aggressive, playing hard and trying to make your opponent quit by hitting them harder than they hit you; but this goes beyond that in a truly negative way. Williams is done in Pro football imo.
Hopefully football period Rocket.
This was for a pre season game, does he bring out the big Ammo for the real games. Butterball Greg has been roasted and he is DONE.
Nope, this was for the Division Game.
How blatantly stupid is Williams anyway? He knows they’re being investigated and he goes on this Pregame or Halftime obscenity laden Tirade where he basically TELLS the players that he’ll pay them?
Benson should be suspended for a Year. GM should be forced to Resign, Payton should serve a 2 year suspension and Williams should never be allowed to come back to the NFL. Period.
Why? Cause everyone from Peyton on up knew this maniac was in the building after they were notified of the investigation and they did NOTHING to curtail it. Benson because he’s the Owner and should have insisted that Williams be fired. He wouldn’t have even had to pay the man because Williams has broken NFL Rules regarding Bounty Systems. Every player that willingly took part should be donating their season check to charity imho. This CANNOT happen ever again.
Gregg Williams’ remarks are, of course, appalling and may also be criminal. They are, however, not surprising. They are yet another variation on the slippery sloping theme of “the end justifies the means” – and I would ask my blog colleagues to recall the response when Lowell took Harbaugh to task for Harbaugh’s attitude toward the media in general and for his remark about California in particular. Many comments appeared excoriating Lowell and making the point that “I don’t care what it takes, just so long as Harbaugh keeps winning us football games.” Now, I don’t believe for a minute that any of us would condone let alone support Gregg Williams’ tactics to win. But I am wondering if the difference between Williams’ remarks on the one hand and some comments made here in response to Lowell’s take on Harbaugh on the other hand is a difference in kind or a difference in degree . . .
@max
“…I would ask my blog colleagues to recall the response when Lowell took Harbaugh to task for Harbaugh’s attitude toward the media in general and for his remark about California in particular.”
I don’t remember what article you are talking about.
DS
I think hes talking about the JH response to a lowel question by answering”why do u want to know how I feel (or about my feelings) is it a california thing?”
@BOS49er
I remember that now. I thought Lowell completely over blew the situation. JH was talking in a joking manner. I didn’t take any of it seriously at all (neither the question nor the answer).
You’re kidding me, right? Two entirely different things that you are WAY over thinking.
I am sure that there are a few attorneys that follow & contribute to this blog.
It was suggested to me by a casual football follower that Williams & the others should/could be brought up on RICO charges. Their argument was that the football games financial impacts could be viewed as inter-state commerce.
If anyone that has passed the bar exam would care to comment, it would be greatly appreciated.
BTW: I’ve said earlier that the punishment was NOT severe enough, now I’m sure that others may agree.
Grant, is there anyway you can set up a blog poll to see how the majority of us feel about if the punishment was just?
Unbelievable they all should be banned for at least 5 years
One of my most vivid memories of that game is Whitner knocking out P. Thomas on as clean a play and hit as I have ever seen.
Yeah that was a GREAT hit. I’m glad that we weren’t made aware of the scandal before that game took place. It made that play mean so much more.
Agreed..
I have a feeling that they DID know about it.
Something weird about Alex Smith yelling over to the NOLA sidelines (after that last throw to Vernon to win the game) and then the camera immediately cutting right to Williams as if the FOX crew was waiting for a response from him specifically.
Could be coincidence. I thought at the time it was just an “in yer face, jerk,” kinda thing but maybe there was more to it than any of us realized.
Just more proof the Saints deserve more than the punishment they got.
They’re at the very least to let this guy come back after they were being investigated. They KNEW they were being investigated and they let this maniac back in the building.
Sorry Saints fans but I do NOT feel an ounce of sympathy for you. I started to on Monday cause I thought the penalty was a bit harsh. But now?!? OMF’NLord I think Benson got away with a felony in this instance. He HAD to know this was going on.
I said “They’re at the very least criminally negligent”… apparently that didn’t take. :P
+1
Just to add to the ‘pile’…
Like anyone else who has played football for awhile, I have delivered, and have been delivered many “de-cleaters”, “Slobberknockers”, and ‘shots’ that stand you up, knock you down, and leave you wondering how that truck got on the field. That, my friends is football. Peering through the earhole of my helmet going back to the huddle hoping that my voice was baritone, and not tenor when I yelled ‘NO!’ when asked if it hurt. Those hits were football. A former coach explained the difference with “…every time you hit someone, you want to hurt them…not injure them.”
I think that every team that plays the Aints this year will have an inventory list of who was on that team, and will even that playing field. Unfortunately, only the players will get ‘hurt’.
I think the team got a good punishment. Before this tape came out I thought it was harsh but now it seems right.
6 months for the GM starting before the draft. So someone else has to run the draft and negotiate with the draft picks.
1 year for the head coach and de facto offensive coordinator. The Saints offense looked like crap the week Payton was out with the shattered knee.
Indefinite suspension for Gregg Williams that is probably a lot more definite now. As in “definitely never coming back”.
500K for the team. Did they lose draft picks? I thought I heard this year’s 2nd and next year’s 1st but that may have been conjecture from some talking head.
@msc
The draft board may have already been set though msc. So, much of the pre-draft work may have already been done by the GM. No big loss there.
And they have franchised DB already and got Colston signed. So their big name guys are not going anywhere before the GM comes back.
And 500k fine is nothing. Look at how much a team pays for player to work out. It is usually more than the down payment for a house.
And they are (as of last week) losing this years #2 and next years #2 I believe. Or it starts next year and continues in 2014.
@msc
Agreed, I hope they don’t turn Williams into another Shoeless Joe Jackson with a lifetime ban. I believe the Saints window is closing, they’ve been competitive for a while and I’d be surprised if they didn’t fall back in the pack.
MC
I don’t see a criminal case you could prove beyond a reasonable doubt. However since the act took place in Northern California ( I don’t know what Hotel the Saints were at ), a D.A. could take a run at them just for the political benefit it might bring. I sort of doubt it.
Injury to persons would not have to be successful for consideration of criminal of incitement. This isn’t political, it’s real. Of course, laws in every state are different. This audio and witness(es) are reasonable enough evidence for any prosecutor to bring a criminal case against Williams – and there’s still more evidence we’re not privvy to. If that evidence held up, reasonable doubt would be a poor defense. That said, a simple indictment could be ruinous. I don’t think the players or the NFLPA really understand the gravity of what Goodell is trying to protect the league from.
Certainly, local prosecutors wherever the Saints played could consider making a case but, more significantly, Senator Dick Durbin has made strong overtones about having a Senate hearing on the matter. These teams cross boundaries to play in 28 states. If people think Goodell has been too strict, wait until a federal hearing happens.
That happends in football on every level only difference is that they were paying people to knock people out.
I don’t have a problem with physical football, but this isn’t just a locker-room speech to fire up the players. When you start getting into specific injuries things are out of hand. Maybe Williams’ behavior isn’t unusual, but it SHOULD be.
Sounds like you’ve never played the game. Every coach wants his team to intimidate and hit hard. I’ve been coached by and coached with guys I thought were over the top aggressive. I have never heard ANYONE encourage players to go after specific guys to cause specific injuries. Coaches may notice some guys shy away from contact so they encourage players by telling them that if they hit the guy hard he will quit and not perform well. Williams most definitely crossed the line and encouraged his players to intentionally try to deliver concussions and knee injuries. Lifetime ban seems appropriate.
“I have never heard ANYONE encourage players to go after specific guys to cause specific injuries.”
Me neither. I had a coach that was a complete Tool once but even that guy never went down this road.
Coaches always talked about being aggressive and putting a good (legal) hit on a guy but that’s about it.
Lot’s of Rah, Rah coach smoke too, but never about specifically trying to cripple a guy.
Criminal charges?? Get real. Sure, 1, 2, 3 year ban, he wont be touched by any NFL team for a few years, if ever, and he can kiss being a DC bye bye.
So is it safe to assume that your title is MJ Esquire?
Really MJ?
Take a little time to read the article (I believe ‘grimy49′ provided the link) from Kyle Williams’ father Ken Williams. He implies that there may have been criminal issues raised.
Physical play is one thing, intent to injure for pay is another thing altogether.
The only thing wrong with this is the comments made about Crabtree and the mention of a bounty for Smith. The rest was done as a way to fire up the team. Coaches talk like that all the time.
That doesn’t make it right Adam. This isn’t something I want kids to learn.
Its a norm in football
Greg Williams = done in the NFL
Sean Payton’s one year suspension should be upheld along with Loomis’s 8 week stint.
As far as criminal charges, that’s just plain naive. What charges would you like them arraigned on? I’d be terribly curious to see what laws you think they’ve broken, given the line of work they are a part of it should be especially interesting to see what you come up with.
There is already precedent for an illegal play being charged as an assault. A hockey player got jail time if I recall correctly.
Offering money to make an illegal hit (assault) could be an interesting case – especially if a S.F. DA wants sone press. I really doubt it would happen but there is precedent.
When it comes to the law, there is a lot that I don’t know, but I always assumed that if I were to offer to pay someone to physically injure someone else (not talking about hit em hard type of speech), then I could be facing criminal charges.
Glad you shared your professional opinion though.
It’s a good thing I hadn’t known that earlier in life because there’d be an awful lot of people (that crossed me) that would have been walking with a permanent limp had I known it was legal to pay someone to mess somebody up.
Lets get all the boxers on the books for taking a payday any time they intentionally threw a low blow, rabbit punch, head butt or anything not in the confines of professional boxing.
Are we not talking about the same thing?
@MJ
No. Not the same.
For one, the ref can call a DQ right there. In the NFL, you can’t get kicked out unless you obviously punch or kick a guy. Unless you are Suh stupid, you won’t get tossed.
You don’t know if the defender is just trying to tackle the guy, or hurt him. You can see a boxer intentionally hit below the belt, etc.
That is the difference.
Well for one … Williams may be indicted on some charge of illegal sports betting. We all know these bounties are/were not “sanctioned” by the NFL. I suppose they can go deeper and explore possible assault charges, but they’ll have to absolutely prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the players’ true intentions were to commit bodily harm … if that makes sense **scratches head** I suppose Brett Favre would be the only victim. Maybe Warner. Hmmm. Anyway, I feel the assault charges are bit of a strecth, but I would venture to say, if they pursue criminal charges, it’ll be on some form of illegal sports betting.
Welcome to Arena Football.
Every team in the league is paying players to play a sport that has a high percentage of injuries so you can easily argue that every player is being paid to hurt someone else.
I love how quickly all of the “NFL is getting too soft” and the “No Fun League” conversations quickly go away and now suddenly it’s a terribly dangerous sport again.
Hypocrites.
Assault and battery charges on the players, conspiracy charges on the coach(es).
Conspiracy charges? Come again
This site explains what it is:
http://blogs.findlaw.com/tarnished_twenty/2012/03/sean-payton-new-orleans-saints-pay-the-price-for-bounty-program.html
So it sounds like prosecutors WILL go after these guys if they feel that the NFL isn’t doing enough to police itself.
“A hockey player got jail time if I recall correctly.”
My favorite is still Tonya Harding. :P I believe that one was assault with conspiracy to commit also.
Adam,
Thanks for the link. I can’t figure out why some people think it ridiculous to consider GW’s actions as possibly criminal.
Yeah. these conspiracy charges are bit of a stretch. Have the saints D ever “took out” a listed player by way of season ending injury? I can’t think of any off the top of my head, but I guess you could make a argument for Brett Favre. but still … under conspiracy, if theres no victim, no money was collected, there for, there’s no crime of conspiracy.
A hockey player swinging a deadly weapon with malicious intent and a coach giving a speech to rouse his players…yea that’s pretty close.
Punishment? Chained to a chair in front of endless video loop of Donte Whitner, bootleg left and Vernon post.
Sweet.
Don’t forget to add Justin Smith getting to Drew Brees with just one arm despite being blocked.
Coming in late as usual, but 100% agree w your assessment, Grant. Williams should not coach at any level — certainly not college, high school or Pop Warner. Criminal charges should absolutely be explored. This guy is a Grade A coward and I would love to see him locked in a room with Vernon or Frank after they listen to what he said. Then he can “decide” if he wants to be knocked out by a left or a right.
it does’nt have to be davis or gore. williams or smith would kick his a..
MJ
A conspiracy is a combination of 2 or more people formed to commit by joint effort an unlawful act. Williams directions to commit acts that are outside the rules of the game could constitute a conspriacy to commit battery. Proving the specific battery would be difficult, but proving the conspiracy might not be that difficult.
Also don’t forget it is an election year and that can be a powerful factor for local D.A.’s.
Taking this to the courts is just idiotic and would be so ugly American. Let it be. Let the nfl suspend them as warranted and just move on.
MUST BE a NO Saints fan
Actually not at all. But not a fan of stupid actions either.
So if you had someone get paid to injure you…you’d be okay with that MJ? I think not. You’d be ready take both those two to court.
@MJ
I once wrote on the blog, in tongue and cheek fashion, lawyers would be on each side of the field and litigation would start as soon as there was a questionable hit or a hit meant with malice, etc. The lawyers would get their faces on playing cards holding footballs with numbers on their suits.
i’ve been in quite a few locker rooms both high school and college what seperates this locker room from every other one i’ve been in is first the money angle but the bounties aside its the targeting of particular body parts on particular players. i have never heard of that on any level
Ditto!
Just line Greg Williams up in front of Donte Whitner with no pads on!
Donte Whitner, Justin Smith, Aldon Smith…
Hey G Williams talk is cheap and Karma is a *itch. KILL THE HEAD? PUNK! Thttp://youtu.be/Ss2dn_QI5k
Hows this taste?
http://youtu.be/Ss2dn_QI5kE
md, that link is hilarious!!!
That speech by Greg Williams was no different than many other speeches that take place in defensive meetings with any Professional or College level team, up to the point when he begins targeting specific body parts to injure or target. To me, that is the point at which he crossed the line and went into an area that has no part in the game.
No matter how we look at it, football is a very violent game, especially at the professional level. If you don’t believe me just look at the link on concussions that DS posted yesterday. These guys put their bodies through tremendous stress on every play, and to do that requires a completely different mindset than in any of the other major sports. That is why he is talking about being physical, etc., but he crossed the line.
Greg Williams should be banned for life as should Sean Payton. As the investigation proved, Williams has a history of this type of behavior, dating back to his time in Washington and Buffalo. Even after being told to stop by the league he continued, and for this he should be banned.
Sean Payton, as the Head Coach and leader of the team should be held to an even higher level of accountability than Williams. It was his job to ensure that this type of activity not take place within his team, and his failure to do so is inexcusable. According to reports, he was also notified by the league to stop this type of practice, yet he continued, and then denied that it was occurring when questioned.
If he wants to coach again at a professional level, let him. He can do it up in the CFL, or Arena league, but not the NFL.
RG better not allow SP and the other coaches to let only GW take the hit. After this tape, SP’s penalty should be *more* harsh. Interesting that at the owners meeting he *did not* go in front of them and apologize for his team’s actions. As the HC it is very hard to believe he didn’t know this type of behavior was going on. Especially after being warned and then they continued conducting business the same way.
Randy Cross is a tool.
Agree? Disagree? Fight!
Agree. His quotes sound like he didn’t even listen to the tapes.
It’s not just this time. That dude seems to really have it out against the organization over the years. Hearing him on TV bashing the Niners over and over again made me sick. Early on it was like he was trying too hard to appear objective but over the years there seems to be some sort of resentment there.
Well speaking of Donte, here’s what he had to say http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/05/49ers-whitner-thinks-williams-actions-were-really-disgusting/
Saints defensive players better watch out for crack back and chop blocks this season.
Poor poor Saints “he wasn’t authorized to release the tapes” bull crap. Can you believe that? They need to be punished more they still don’t get it. The owner needs to feel the hammer. They appealed? Right there says they don’t understand how big this is going to be.
“Oh you appealed? Here is another year and two first round draft picks”
Now they are saying he was a “rogue” coach. I was waiting for them to throw all of the blame on him and try to deflect any blame on themselves. Not knowing (which I doubt) is not a defense.
Place the blame somewhere else. See that shows how much they just don’t get it yet.
Kyle Williams dad had something to say about this.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/62491/kyle-williams-dad-closer-to-criminal-act
*MC’ ACL*
So Grant,What’s the comments from Alex Smith about the audio tape?
50 Dollars says Drew Brees walks away from N.O. after this year.
Another 9er courting fiasco in the making for 2013??!
Good one Hofer!
I’m not opposed to that thought whatsoever Hof.
Good, Jordo will join by starting to beat the drums immediately!
Hof,
You should know from my previous posts that I support our QB. But I have also stated that if Brees chose to become a Niner that it would be the only way I would say bye-bye to Smith. Brees would be a great fit for this offense. I cannot not will not deny that.
cannot nor will not.
MWN, he would definitely be an upgrade and I hear you but I just don’t want the advocates to start now with all of the negative comments about the current QB for the next year. lol
If the Saints are smart, they’ll fork over the money that Brees wants. Otherwise they won’t have anyone to play the role of hero in this precarious period.
You like that Hof? A little “face of the franchise” post. lol
MD, now you are trying to start some BS. I like it – nice! lol
Grant can we get a thumbs up or down button on here. If you have to many dislikes your post gets hidden. It will save space and tons of arguements. =-)
Hey MD, I asked you a question that you probably didn’t see yesterday, after all of your invites, did anyone from the blog come out to tailgate with you??
No. Bay was supposed to one day, but he chickened out. lol I understand some people may not be comfortable with hanging around people they dont know. My tailgates are like my “shindigs” at my house. The more the merrier. Why you thinking of coming out for a beer and the best damn Chicken Tri or Rib you will ever eat? lol
I was just curious, but bringing food into the convo (I’m hungry) I may have to take you up on it this year! lol
I thought you had hof.
Checkit. Pole M Hof, but were not the Randy Cross fans. Wine drinkers are alright with me. lol
MD, I like beer as well just have more food/wine that pair together. If it is cold enough, maybe a little Schnapps or brandy? lol
Grant, With the new evidence of these tapes, and Payton trying to appeal, can Goodell go back and increase the punishment, or is there a league bylaw that does not allow this?
And the status quo–the Papa’s Eric Davis’s even Raddy and Cross..hey WE get it about how going for the weakness and the -heavens- foul language,has been in football forever. What that status quo dont get is the line was crossed..opponents singled out to be injured for illegal money. And the tape even asks Saints players to hit after the whistle in pileups if they can get away with it.
What the NFL is doing is right,its progress. To compare to thirty years ago dirty play means nothing..30-40 years ago you could buy a new Ford Pinto with the gast tank exposed too…
And ,yes we know the NFL players are hopped up on crank,crack,PEDS and all the rest…
Hoferfan67 says:
April 5, 2012 at 4:28 pm
“AES, we don’t need the politicians in the middle of this…there answer to steroids problem was to make one person the poster child in the steroid era and blame him for all of baseball. They spent millions trying to build their case – what a wast of money. It was crap.”
Hofe, I’m disturbed by your reaction to this. A coach blatantly crossed a line by creating a climate of criminal intent. Sadly, some of his players bought into this diabolical scheme. The reason i’m all for a senate committee hearing on the matter is that a message needs to be sent to the NFL that no coach or player can purposely and intentionally injure another player for the sole purpose of dirty monies.
I don’t agree with your notion that money was wasted with the baseball drug issue. Baseball will always have a blackeye because of the steriods era. And baseball was turning a blind eye to the problem because it allowed the M.McQuire,’ Sammy Sosa,’ and Barry Bonds’ just to name a few to shoot-up because they were filling and building stadiums.
Say what you will Hofe, but someone needed to step in and put a stop to the problem. Is baseball completely purged from this? Maybe not, but the issue was put on the radar and there has been less violators because of it. For that I salute the senate committee and would have no problem if they went after G.Williams to investigate that this is not a prevelent issue throughout the NFL.
AES, regarding the steroid problem investigated by Congress, I believe the intent was good but like I said one person turned out to be the poster child and bad guy. Now if Congress delves into the Saints bounty program, GW will most likely take the biggest hit and it does exactly what to his penalty of not ever coaching in the NFL again? Let them condemn the one off issue, but let’s not have they overreact like they typically do and then give the NFL a slap on the wrist. It’s a time and money waster at best.
Hofe, makes no difference if one player or one-hundred players were made poster child(s). The issue was not about one or a hundred players, the issue was about cleaning up a mess that baseball as a whole purposely ignored because they were more concerned about the bottom-line. Baseball could not and did not responsibily manage it’s own house. Hence, congress committee.
It was their commish. But I don’t disagree with you.
You know, this whole thing is making me relive that game with some new perspective on what our guys were facing. What a great season.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwOPqwROIBQ&feature=related
It was a great season. It was almost epic.
Agreed. It also increases my faith in the OL.
I was there!!!
Give G. William another chance in 50 years !
Try 1,000 years.
lol !
If this were a global sport regulated by one real organization, like FiFa, this team would be relegated!!! 2nd or third division period. The manager and coaches would be fired and criminal charges would be sought. Some people say it’s just football and not to take things out of hand. I say that it is real life just like an office job but also happens to be a money making entertainment factory. It still doesn’t take away the criminal acts commited. Imagine if you went to work and someone in an adjacent office wanting your promotion purposely hurt you or unscrewed your chair so when you sat on it, you fell and cracked your spine. Is it a crime then? If so, then how is premiditating injuries and incouraging players to go away from sportmanship and possible threatining someones career not a crime. Where is the Players Association in this mess with players purposely trying to injure people?
What an insult to the game!!! and sports. The whole front office needs to pay for this, especially since this was a pre-game speech. Payton had to have heard this PERIOD!!!!
The way to stop it is to have the owners accountable. It’s their team and the buck stops with them. The *I wasn’t aware* answer doesn’t work. If any of their employees conduct themselves outside of the code of ethics, the ownership takes the hit period. All of this nonsense would stop immediately!
+1
That is not how businesses are ran and is precisely why there are LLC’s. You can’t be aware or accountable for everyone’s actions. You have rules in place to prevent behavior, but at the end of the day it is free agency.
It is no different than suing the owner of IBM because a worker went postal.
Medic, they’re small enough even as LLC’s. Stockholders don’t own the company they do. They have 100-150 employees per team. Not that big of deal to police their employees.
I don’t see any problem with what was said. I have seen Fire Chief’s and Captains say much worse than that. I think what this guy is saying is exactly what Mike Singletary said last season. “Hit them in the mouth and bring the quit out”.
I think that this is just one more case of the media distorting the facts to make a story that really isn’t there.
Anyone who has seen a pregame huddle knows there is much worse said in those huddles. I’ve heard Ray Lewis say worse on ESPN highlights and sounds of the game.
If anything I feel like the speech puts it all into context and gives the entire organization room to appeal. “Vernon Davis ankles over the pile” to me means hit him hard enough he goes backwards. Make Fran Gore go sidesway, hit him head on “in the mouth” (like Singletary would say) to take his head out of the game and make him run east west to prevent yards.
I am glad this was aired, but I don’t see the outrage in it. Just my opinion.
you must be a Saint fan. you’re hearing things
I don’t like the Saints at all. I just don’t see the “outrage” in what was said. This guys job is to motivate his players. That speech was just that. If we take the trial courts into every huddle, every conversation we have, every closet, I am sure we’d all be guilty of something or other.
@medic one
Ray Lewis is a player though. And players have to get themselves up. Coaches are supposed to control their players. And the fact that the coach directed this is what is appalling to me.
Had it just been a players only deal it would not be nearly as bad. But the fact that the coaches and consequently the entire organization must have at least heard rumors about it is what is really bad.
They were warned about it before, denied and ignored the NFL. That’s what makes it worse.
I agree with you on that point.
@bigniner
From what I have gathered, they were warned at least 3 times, and never stopped it. It was more than one warning I can assure you.
If I only had a brain…..The Scarecrow… Wow. If your a medic, Id rather die than have you helping out.
Ninermd,
+1.
The outrage comes from the knowledge of Williams setting up a paying bounty system for his defensive players and telling them to target certain areas on certain players.
MWN … +2
It’s one thing to say these types things, but when you have a bounty system in place?! It goes beyond just words. It puts these words into action.
“I have seen Fire Chief’s and Captains say much worse than that.”
I guess if you’re in New York and they’re talking about the cops…?
I don’t understand what you’re saying. So the FD Chief is telling you all to go out and hurt who exactly? And then he (and maybe some folks off the street and the guys from the Engine Co.) are putting up money for y’all to do it?
You’re going to have to clarify that one for me. I don’t get it.
To be fair, I wouldn’t be surprised to hear an LAPD captain saying this sort of thing.
If I’m Williams, I definitely wouldn’t want that comparison Msclemon.
Its sad g. william has been known as a good DC. Theres no excuse for what he did. These guy shouldn’t even be coaching any place at all. Even in college or HS level..
Not sad at all.
He had been doing this kind of thing for years for other teams he DC for. So, more than one NFL team is at fault here. More than 1 HC is a dumb-butt.
Agree ! Whats sad is that he was a father like to alot of young players, and he show case his vicious defensive scheme.
He’s done for life! Gregg Williams is an A$$! I guess sweet part is that Alex Smith burn his “tough guy” defense not once, but twice to win the game. Love it!
After that last TD Alex was yelling at Gregg Williams….Alex has said he was just being competitive…I think our guys knew what was being said about them. That’s why Whitner almost took their running back’s head off (I forget his name, but I’m sure he still can’t remember it) early in the game. That hit really set the mood!
What comes around goes around ! He finally got his..
Pierre Thomas got knocked the f out!!
Easy big niner, remember Deebo got a cruel payback! lol…
I heard that rams are keeping the DC job open for G. Williams, when he gets off suspension in 1,000 years…lol
Its a sad day for 23jordan his favorite DC is forever relieve of his duty. He didn’t even came close in his mission to take A. Smith and gore’s head off ..hahaha
Zito the man= Manilaboy????
23Jordan = DS94everXev ?
Jack the troll Bioch!
Manila is a child.
Jordo/LowHangingFruit, Is there any truth to the rumor that you get your pickup lines off Taco Bell hot sauce packets?
@Jack
Hey, about you take your own advice Jack!
“If you can’t stay on the topic of the post move along. This is way more serious than the personal feelings you, Nick or anyone else has about a particular player.”
Just replace ‘particular player’ with ‘particular blogger’ and it fits what you should be doing.
If you have not noticed, the only time people are for the most part not staying on topic is when you interrupt and tell us to stay on topic.
But, it somehow ok for you to go off topic and make stupid comparisons between bloggers? Yeah. Whatever.
Do yourself a favor. Skip my posts. Maybe that is some advice I can give to you that you will follow.
Your right DS. I apologize for getting off track. When you get a chance take a look at the comment I made regarding the Smith 3rd down problems post. You might find it is interesting and supports your position.
Manilaboy,
In 23′s defense, he shows what he thinks of Williams in his 3:16 P.M. post.
@jordan = Grant
NinerMD = 23jordan
NinerMD, you and your buddy 23jordan, don’t forget to take your medication, your pyscharist prescribe to you guys…lol
Manilaboy says:
April 5, 2012 at 9:47 pm
NinerMD, you and your buddy 23jordan, don’t forget to take your medication, your pyscharist prescribe to you guys…lol
Rest my case. 5th grade jokes. Your lame.
And zito. With a screen name like yours, there’s no need to explain anything else. Two newbies that are fully on this 49er bandwagon. Wheeew. Gotta love the newbies.
MJ says:
April 5, 2012 at 2:19 pm
“Lets get all the boxers on the books for taking a payday any time they intentionally threw a low blow, rabbit punch, head butt or anything not in the confines of professional boxing.
“Are we not talking about the same thing?”
No, because their low-blows, rabbit punch or head-butt is usually a response of frustration. Yes, a violation of boxing rules, but not considered a criminal intent because the actions were not hidden or premeditaded.
I hope Green Bay does not take Shea McClellin so the 49ers can draft him. Linebackers of terror and Shea “Mayhem” McClellin : http://www.myspace.com/video/fox-sports/nfl-draft-preview-shea-mcclellin/108613204
DS94everXev says:
April 5, 2012 at 5:51 pm
@AES
“The idea of going out to hurt somebody is the crime.
If they didn’t get paid any extra to do what the coaches told them, does that make the action any less repulsive?
I don’t think so. Not one bit. Money or not.”
Less repulsive? No. A bad injury on any level is never good if you just focus on the injury only. But when the injury results as a premeditaded deed, it becomes more than an injury. It is a crime.
When Jack Tatum inflicted a savage hit on NE’ Darryl Stingly it was a repulsive injury. Had JT been paid dirty money to inflict said blow, he would have been convicted of criminal intent.
I feel it is a crime regardless.
I don’t agree, but I respect your opinion DS.
@AES
: – )
*premeditated*
Here’s one former 49ers coach’s take on this: http://www.49erswebzone.com/news/goto.php?id=43717
This is from the film maker who released the Gregg Williams audio, Sean Pamphilon. It is long but well worth the read.
http://theusof.com/2012/04/tru-dat-gregg-williams-saints-audio-bountygate-pay-for-pain/
Pamphilon is being slammed by the Saints (of course) and surprisingly by Steve Gleason for releasing this audio.
He’s also being slammed by former and current players. It’s sickening when somebody gets assailed for doing the right thing.
Yeah there’s no such thing as personal responsibility or honesty anymore. It’s all about blame the accuser and then throw whoever is convenient under the bus.
Saw both today. Pathetic. The league should strip the team from the owner. Do what they do in baseball.
Through all this talk of how the Saints tried to be bad with their bounty and language, meanwhile the 49ers came off as the bad### team.
Heh – no kidding. I wish I could remember who said it but some talking head said it looked like the 49ers were the team with the bounty program in that game.
The 49ers D took the Saints to the woodshed.
And the offense delivered the fatal blow with the Vernon Post.
Right, and isn’t that the point? The game can be played really hard and really rough without intent to injure. Yeah, all the players want to hurt each other and intimidate each other if they can; not the same as intent to injure.
Exactly,it is safe to presume most of us enjoy the play of PWillis for instance, he delivers his share of hard hits and tackles and is superb at his position but intentionally targeting specific parts of the opposing teams anatomy with the intent to incur potentially career ending injury for prize-never!
Got to have a some empathy for the fans of New Orleans, they have to deal with Katrina, although we have to deal with DS, they finally win a Super Bowl and now that is tainted with two egomaniac thugs . Perhaps it was best that Brees didnot sign that long term contract he might want to leave dodge.
I have to agree Neal. Those poor fans can’t seem to catch a break. Because of some really idiotic losers, the franchise’s only Super Bowl is now tainted.
I was rooting for the Saints too and was so happy they beat the Colts, if I knew now what I knew then, I would of rooted for the Colts but I tend to vote for the underdog. I wonder how much of this Brees knew because I always had a high opinion of his integrity and reputation of being a good guy.
Neal, not a good comparision…
@AES,
I think it was a good comparison Katrina and DS are both blowholes. Come on now.
Neal
Go away.
Go far away. And don’t come back.
@DS,
You are so mean to me, I have never ever insulted you and you have really hurt my feelings.
lol Neal
After a day of the G.Williams debacle, if you a chance check out the tribute the Texas Rangers gave to Shannon Cooper’ family. Maybe there is hope in the sports world afterall.
+1.
Pardon the mistake; the name is Cooper Stone.
“Warning – the audio is profane and disturbing.”
That warning seems pretty silly if you’ve read any of the posts around here involving Alex Smith.
I think Sean Payton having Gregg Williams “let the dogs out” in that preseason had more to do with JH not kissing Payton’s SB ring then any courtesy phone call he didn’t make…as far as the audio of Williams rant goes? This dude should be banned for life. If SP says he had no idea what was going on, then he’s a bigger liar than the politicos on Capitol Hill…
Wow you dinged my post that was in no way inflammatory cause I said this column wasn’t up to your recent standards. Little testy this week?
Grant,
maybe later you can post how this story came about. And why Pamphilon was granted access to the locker room speech in the first place. It’s a heck of a story….
Huge friendship betrayal.
@Bay, the story about how Pamphilon was granted permission to the locker room is in the Michael Silver article that Grant has a link to in his post.
Jack,
I’m more so talking about the Steve Gleason story in depth. The reason why he brought Pamphilon in. Just elaborating on that.. Very touching story. Knowing he is going to die, so he had a child and is doing a video journal for his child. That is how Pamphilon was introduced to the Saints locker room environment…
@Bay I get where you’re coming from. It seems kind of sleazy to take advantage of Gleason to release a provocative audio clip. At first I was a bit disgusted with Pamphilon but then I read Silver’s piece and Pamphilon’s (very long) article explaining his decision.
Two things that Pamphilon mentioned:
1) He was appalled that Williams was advocating head shots on concussed players while Gleason was sitting there in a wheelchair due to NFL injuries
2)He hasn’t released the video – which is apparently even worse – in order to protect the other people in the room.
I’m not saying Pamphilon is a saint (no pun intended) but he doesn’t seem like a sleazeball to me now.
Complicated for sure….
@Bay, Got ya. Yes that would be a good one. Very interesting.
“I’m not saying Pamphilon is a saint (no pun intended) but he doesn’t seem like a sleazeball to me now.”
Sounds like he’s refusing a ton of interview requests so far so it appears that maybe he doesn’t have a ton to gain personally. Could be exactly what he says it is: The truth needed to come out. He released just enough to permanently cook Gregg Williams (hopefully) but nothing more. I’ve heard some speculation that what is left that he didn’t release to the public is pretty sensational.
The modern age is all about blaming the whistleblower anyway. Seems funny how all this works now.
When you violate trust you have nothing left. Pamphilon I understand his intentions but this violated something that is sacred. I have no use for Williams and others to intentionaly hurt anyone. But
Undercenter,
we come from the same roots baby. Trust between two men was broken……
That video did not need to come out. The damage was already done for Williams…
Yup that just wasnt right.
I heard that opposing defensive coordinators tell their playes NOT to hurt Alex smith.
LOL that is a good one and so true.
+1