We’ve been doing a lot of Fleener talk around here recently.
For the sake of discussion, let’s say the Niners don’t end up with the Stanford tight end in the upcoming draft because a team in the top-15 drafts him and the Niners don’t get a chance to trade up. What do they do then?
They need a pass catcher who can make the big play to complement Vernon Davis longterm – that’s clear. Michael Crabtree isn’t that guy – he’s a possession receiver.
Who are the big-play receivers in this draft? Let’s take a look at the prospects who averaged more than 16 yards per catch last season.
1. Stephen Hill, Georgia Tech, 6-4, 209 lbs, 4.36 40-yard dash. Averaged 29.3 yards per catch in 2011 on 28 catches with 5 TDs. Caught only 49 catches in his entire collegiate career. Didn’t really run routes in college – ran as fast as he could down the sideline and if the defense bit on the option fake in the backfield, the quarterback chucked it to Hill. He may not have the lateral quickness or suddenness to ever develop into a split end – he may be a Super Marques Colston, a big, fast slot receiver who matches up against linebackers and safeties and nickel cornerbacks and runs the seam route. I’m guessing the Niners would prefer a true split end to a gimmick player, so I don’t think Hill is the guy for them.
2. Rueben Randle, LSU, 6-3, 212 lbs., 4.43 40-yard dash. Averaged 17.3 yards per catch on 53 catches and 8 TDs – outstanding numbers considering he was playing against SEC defenses and his quarterback was no good. He’s tall, he’s strong, he’s very fast and he runs good routes. In the NFL he has the potential to be a split end who averages 15 to 16 yards per catch. He’s a bigger, faster Hakeem Nicks without the big hands or the big vertical leap. He’s the best pass-catching prospect in this draft besides Fleener.
3. Jarius Wright, Arkansas, 5-10, 182 lbs., 4.42 40-yard dash. Averaged 16.9 yards per catch on 66 catches and 12 TDs. Averaged 17.5 yards per catch over his four year career in the SEC – a mindboggling statistic. He’s the same size as Mario Manningham, and he’s got an almost identical vertical jump, broad jump, hand size, arm length and 40-yard dash time as the super-hyped first round prospect from Baylor, Kendall Wright. Jarius Wright is projected to get picked in the fourth round because he’s too light, but he’s heavier, stronger and tougher than Desean Jackson and nearly as fast. Jarius Wright routinely made catches over the middle in traffic. He’s a first-round talent and a better player than the other Wright. Kendall averaged only 13.3 yards per catch in his four-year career in the Big 12 catching passes from the elite Robert Griffin III. The Niners could and should take Jarius, the steal of the draft, in the third round.
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Hill will absolutely be gone by our pick, I have him going in the top 15 so that leaves Randle and Wright and from those two if you’re looking for an X then Randle fits the bill closer then Wright.
Agree completely with you on this. If Randle is gone too, Quick might be the guy at X. MM=KW=JW; we need an X more to learn behind Moss.
In my opinion, Hill is not a safe pick. Half of Hill’s catches seemingly came in a game against, I believe, North Carolin.
Hill made a spectacular catch in that game, by reeling in the ball with one hand while jumping and stretching out for it. He also dropped a wide open pass where he would have been gone for 6 and a guy wasn’t even within 10 yards of him
I mean in a triple option offense, your WR’s are going to see the ball very often, but I can’t help but remember all the quality WR’s that came from that offense, particularly Georgia Tech. The obvious one that comes to mind is Calvin Johnson and I’m not going out on a limb by saying that Hill is no Megatron.
Here’s the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=D6BhdO59RM0
I agree with the comments on hill. A great physical specimen, but anyone that takes him in the first is undoubtedly reaching. Way too raw and too many question marks. Raiders would have probably taken this guy in the top 10 if they had a 1st rounder.
Anyways, I wouldn’t be too disappointed with Randle at that #30 spot. I honestly think it’ll be the best Defensive player available either on the line, OLB, or DB. But we’ll see
Like it. Even if they take F* (tired of writing Fleener). O line or Safety if a BPA at #30, tho don’t mind if they trade up or down bec the N braintrust now has a plan & appear to know who they want, unlike the past ten dreary years.
Question: When will you be allowed to attend Niner camp? Can you sneak in a camera to show us Moss catching a fly or the muscles on our prospective RG?
The first day of media access is Wednesday.
Grant
Beginning Wednesday (and each chance you get) please Sir, keep a very close eye on Alex and his deep throws. Having watched this kid over the years, he is a puzzle. He has thrown some really beautiful balls – over the middle, slants, inside and outside the numbers, post, skinny and otherwise, etc., etc. But last season watching his horrendous over throws on deep sidelines made me really wonder.
Your read/assessment on him each time you can would be much appreciated. Thanx.
Are you considered media? Aren’t you a blogger?
Grant, in the scenario you mention above who would you see the 49ers selecting in the first 2 rounds?
Probably Randle in the first. They may have to trade ahead of the Texans to get him, though. But if they miss out on Randle and Fleener they should trade up in the second round to get Marvin Jones, who will probably be a mid-second round pick.
The Niners should draft Jarius Wright in the third round regardless and carry six wide receivers, since Ted Ginn Jr. doesn’t count as one.
I have to agree with you regarding Ginn. He’ll never have great hands. But I love having him on our team just for the ST factor.
Ginn is horrendous. Straight line speed, nothing whatsoever laterally, and knocked of his block by a fart from the upper reserve. Pathetic. Cut his ass!
Ginn is only back because of his value as a return man, nothing else. The only way he touches the field as a receiver this year is if someone goes down.
I agree, and it was not like Ginn had other options, good return man but should of never been a top draft pick.
The 49ers have three upcoming issues they need to successfully navigate. The first issue is the draft. They need to successfully navigate away from this blog prior to the draft because sweet baby Jesus, the blog thoughts on Fleener will make your mouth water, but not in the good way. It’ll make your mouth water pre throw-up.
The second issue is Dashon Goldson. Will Goldson play nice, showing up to OTAs or whatever the union is calling them now? What happens if the 49ers use a high pick on a safety in the draft? Goldson could literally be the best safety in the NFL. I know, you want to point to Troy P in Pittsburgh, but Troy’s lateral incisors are longer than the list of people who walked away from Grant’s mock, shaking their heads at the state of nepotism in America – meaning for those of you intellectually challenged, Troy is getting long in the tooth. Give me a safety you think is better than Goldson. Just off the top of my head, there are some pretty good ones in the NFC West – Cam Chancelor, Earl Thomas, Adrian Wilson (Bigsby used to be in the division). But for my money, The Hawk is the best, and getting better. How the 49er deal with Goldson’s franchise tag in the near future will do a lot for their playoff hopes. No Goldson, Super Bowls will be much tougher (despite your desire to dismiss the issue as easily overcome without Goldson).
The last obstacle to overcome is the best one, or most exciting – The inevitable quarterback controversy in 2012. I’m not even going to go into why there will be a qb controversy, if, or how it emerges. I want to talk about how Harbaugh deals with it. If Harbaugh is smart, in his first press conference he’ll say one thing – “I’ve always been consistent with the media about the qb position. You have to earn that position.” If Harbaugh does that, when Josh Johnson hangs two touchdowns on his preseason competition in his first two snaps and everyone looks around at each other with a smile knowing what follows (qb controversy…. finally), Harbaugh will look like a genius. Everyone will say, “He’s always said it’s an open competition, and pulled JJ off the scrap heap.” Then when Kaep does the same thing, throwing impressive touchdowns to new receivers, and Alex is handing off to Akers (no, they aren’t trying Akers out at running back), Alex will look like chopped liver. And that’s fair because Alex has made my liver chopped liver. Well, it was the micro breweries and Grey Goose and Tanqueray that Alex forced me to purchase, but I digress. (I think they should add a 13th step – I will not watch the 49ers until Alex Smith is gone).
Which leads me to an admittedly far-fetched scenario, but Grant dropped Fleener on us at 17, so the precedent has been set, and the insanity doors have long since been flung open. My question is, will Alex Smith even be apart of the qb controversy? I mean, there’s a chance that Kaep could have taken over the spot this year if JJ never showed up. And make no mistake about it, JJ is going to challenge for the starting job. He’s been sitting on the bench for three or four years alla Aaron Rogers. My question is simple – will the quarterback controversy even include Alex Smith? Aren’t the best two options for the 49ers in 2012 at the qb position Colin Kaepernick or Josh Johnson? Wouldn’t a competition between those two men, with the other coming in if the starter was making mistakes, better suit this football team? Now that I think about it, why don’t we just cut Alex Smith right now? You know why we can’t? Because he has naked pictures of Jed York on a farm with some sheep. You explain the last seven years.
Spitblood, I just read your comment and somehow, while reading your comment, I was reminded of that song Ramblin’ Rose. Do you know that song? You probably do. Heck, I’ll bet you wrote that song. Did you write that song, Spitblood? Ramblin’ Rose? Did you write it? Bet you did.
I wrote it. Why so sad? We just went to the NFC Championship game. Turn that frown upside down.
I knew it. I knew you wrote it, Spitblood. I just won money. Bettin’ money. Oh, and that’s not a sad face, that’s my game face :)
Yesssssssssssss…… an Alex Smith fan that I get to torture. Hey… how’d free agency workout for your camp?
yes. With alex. Dont start again.
Dude, you are the best writer on this blog…
Appreciate it, Streetglide…..
Why did you felt the need to post this mess twice is beyond me Spit. Got it all the first time and was trying to forget it. Then you post it all again. You are trying too hard.
To drive Smith haters insane….. yes.
I mean lovers…. damn.
Is this a fillabuster? TLDR
That’s how I feel.
dumb all around
Smith lover…
@spit
Who cares? Smith is on the team which we love. And is going into year 8. He has signed 1, 2,3, 4 contracts with the team. 4 times AS has gone thru negotiations (or renegotiation’s) and 4 times, the Niners have kept him. How many other “bad” or “average” players can you recall who have done that? Please think about that point before posting another “AS sucks…” comment.
Alas, what is your point? A “Smith lover” is a “Niner lover”.
Yeah, Spit is The Pontif Icator. Sure glad he showed up to set us all straight on everything.
Better than that Brotha.
Spit has revealed new ways of looking at things that nobody else on this board ever has. I can see the truth so much more clearly now.
@spit
What if JJ throws 2 Ints in his first 2 passes? Will you be equally enthused to run him out of town like you are to the guy who lead us to the title game while JJ lead the Bucs to….
And, I read the comments about QB controversy last year as well. How often did we hear of a QB controversy in the regular season as the Niners lead by AS hung up 13 wins and were the most complete team? Tell me.
I’ll wait.
P.S. Tolzein is the smartest non-AS QB the Niners have and has grasped more of the offense than CK has. Interesting how you somehow left him out of the equation.
And you really do have a fascination with naked men don’t you? If not, why do you keep talking about them?
@spit
Still waiting…..
Plenty of time to write disgusting thoughts. None to reply to an actual challenge using facts.
Complement, not compliment.
Have you seen your movie?
Can’t speak, my mouth is shut.
Good article Grant. If I had to choose, I’d pick Randle because of those hands.
I like taking Fleeener in the first round at whatever # we can. But if he goes to another team and we don’t have a chance at him or he’s there but Baalke passes on him, then I’m with oldman49. Based on last years draft and results, I trust we have a good 2012 draft either way. NOW, if we trade up, to say #17, AND take Coby there, then the 2012 draft becomes instantly great. ["Instantly Great" - how much better can it get?] Scenario: Red Zone. Niner ball. 3 TE set. Davis, Walker, Fleen. What’s a D to do? TOUCHDOWN 49ERS!
At 6’3″, have to think Randle makes more sense as a red-zone threat…
So you know more than everybody else about draft prospects, Grant? Jarius Wright is a first round talent but is expected to go in the fourth round! Boy, I wish we had you as our GM… NOT! Give me a break!
If the draft has proven anything, it is that you CANNOT predict how good these athletes will be in the pros until they’re there. You never know… Chris Culliver was projected as a late 6th to mid 7th round selection by most draft “experts” like Mike Mayock, who was stunned when we took him in the 3rd. CC looks like he was deserving of the selection already, and the 49ers FO comes out smelling like roses now for what was then widely considered a reach. There is ALWAYS first round talent taken in the later rounds OR not at all (Marcus Colston/Arian Foster/Victor Cruz/Tom Brady anyone?). This happens every draft, year after year. Benjarvis Green Ellis wasn’t drafted, and didn’t even get picked up by the Pats until week 6 of the regular season, and I’d say he looks like he was pretty deserving a draft spot. The draft experts hit and miss all the time. All reporters and scouts have their opinions on who hidden gems (and busts) are, and if you don’t agree that’s fine…. but with him being someone who actually has a career as a football reporter and therefore someone who is around these guys more than you or myself, I’ll gladly take Grants’ opinion over yours everyday and twice on Sundays. We’ll see how he translates as a pro, but I would be happy if the 49ers end up taking JW in the 3rd… more so than some of the guys expected to go in the 1st/2nd rounds, no question. All fun and speculation, and of course disagreements will happen on our evaluations, but there’s really no need to balk at anybody’s opinion. At this point would you rather have ANYONE else in our FO running the draft? I can’t think of one team that’s got it better than us right now, period. NOBODY. Besides, like BW used to say about the draft: “It never matters where we pick them, it only matters how they play”. *GENIUS*
Just had to add, for those wondering why Grant likes this kid so much… he led the WR’s in the SEC. When evaluating you will usually do better to look for big production from the collegiate level more that possible production at the Pro level. Why will they produce at the pro level if they didn’t shine against easier competition at a lesser level? JW shined. I’d gladly have him over an unproductive, unproven possible phenom, more likely bust. Another Walsh draft tactic: previous production over perceived future potential… either that or become the Raiders. Led the SEC in receiving. That’s something to write home (and blog) about.
Completely agree. Producing against top competition at the college level is as good an indicator as any of future production in the NFL.
“Led the SEC in receiving. That’s something to write home (and blog) about.”
Didn’t Dixon lead (or near the top) the SEC in rushing?
I think your first post is better. You, me, Grant, guy next door with binoculars has no idea how things will turn out at the end.
Grant, I just heard the 49ers signed you to a one year tender to play Middle Linebacker…
What? It’s Larry Grant? Oh well. Never mind. I like you here at the PD anyway.
Dashon Goldson is the only player not officially nailed down, but he’s franchise tagged and I hear the long term contract talks are friendly. Looks like the defense is set.
Brodie – who told you the long term contract talks are friendly? That’s great news!
Spitblood, Sorry I exaggerated when I said contract talks were “friendly.” The information I got was that long term contract talks were in process. My bad.
I’m hopeful. Goldson has big economic incentive to show up and either play this year to a high level to increase his 2013 contract value, or sign a longer deal before this season.
Curse you, Brodie. It’s work making Monday fun. You gave me a window, then slammed it shut and now all I have left is the rest of Monday and Grant dropping pearls of wisdom regarding wide receiver play. So far, Fleener is Gonzo, Jeffrey and Blackmon are second rounders, and this fifth round guy, Jarius Wright should be a first rounder. My stars.
This fifth round guy was the SEC’s leading receiver last season.
Glad to see you have gotten on the Rueben Randle bandwagon, I think he’d be unbelievable value at 30 but his draft stock has been rising lately so he might even go before us. Hes got everything you want in a wide receiver, I’d rather trade up for him than Fleener.
I am so ready for some OTA reports. I believe Moss is going to show the league that he still has it. I believe that Scott Tolzein will challenge AS more than JJ or Kap. Tell ya the truth, I do not think JJ is that good. Yeah, he will flash once in awhile. But really, he could not keep his jkob in TAMPA.
Alex will have a lights out year. AS replacement will be Scott. Good Arm and great skill. JH jumped on him, he seen something that would fit will in our offense. Just make plays and do not turn the ball over.
With that said, I will not be surprised to AS when a superbowl ring with JH. Sometimes a coach can make a champion out of a man nobody trusts. Look at Steve Young, his first few years where sad in TB. Great coaching can turn the average into great. 1 superbowl for AS, I will be rooting for him.
Look at what this poor kid has been threw. He never gave up. Just kept playing. My God, He was bood by his on fans. For a game plan that was out of his control.
The only comparison there is between Young and Alex Smith is the fact that Smith is left handed, but doesn’t know it yet.
funny
I actually agree with you about Scott, but I think its too early to tell on JJ. Most QBs are now system QBs and I think JJ was in the wrong system with a not very good team, I could be wrong tho but that would be a first (lol). Hate to say this as I will get jumped on, but I think CK might be the odd man out. I am not saying he isnt a good QB but I wonder if he isnt in the wrong system to fit his skills.
@undercenter
Rumor I heard from Kevin Lynch on KNBR a few days ago was that CK had not shown enough improvement. SFGATE also has an article about Tolzein being able to grasp systems amazingly well.
Put the two together and if true, don’t be shocked to see CK traded during the draft to help the Niners move up/acquire new picks.
All based on rumor, so take from it what you wish. But according to the Rules of Acquisition, “Hear All, Trust Nothing” is the appropriate response.
@ DS
I was wondering the same thing about trading him when I first mentioned that I got a lot of flac. I dont know whether CK will be a bona fide QB or not but what I have seen so far I think he fits in like Turners system or others similiar.
@undercenter
“I first mentioned that I got a lot of flac.”
Who? On this board, “who” matters an awful lot. If it is pork, just ignore him. He has a huge crush on CK. Thinks the guy was the best ever. I’m all for trading CK or anybody else practically if it garners a 1st round pick.
I see this whole thing being battled out in Training Camp. And JH will select the QB pecking order between JJ, Tolzein, CK based on their actual performances. Not their draft/salary position.
P.S. AS will be in the battle. And will win the starting job.
Grant, who do you suppose the 49ers might draft to further strengthen the Ohio State-49er connection?
Since we let Troy Smith go, I’m worried that Ted Ginn, Alex Boone, Larry Grant, and Donte Whitner might feel alienated, along with the rest of Buckeye Nation. Which Buckeyes is Harbaugh looking at, and don’t tell me none because he went to Michigan.
Troy Smith is history along with M Singletary and Nate Davis..lol
What time does the NFL draft start next Thursday? And Friday?
kendell wright caught alot of screen passes from RG3 so of course his average is not going to be 16 yards or more. His overall catch total and chainmover abilties is better than the rest. Get the facts first. Its no wonder writers are never hired as scouts or GM’s.
Kendall Wright does not have better “chainmover abilities” than Jarius Wright, whatever that means.
@grant please, we don’t need another k.william..What the niners need is a tall and speedy reciever not another small reciever..
Hey Grant … what about the son of a legendary Niner safety .. ?
(both named Jeff Fuller)
What’s his downside ?
Fuller is another big slot possession receiver, like Alshon Jeffery.
On Randle- what good is talent without heart. Boy quit in BCS championship and others. Give me players with fight! Willing to sacrifice their own glory to lift a brother up! I’ll take Sanu in the second and let him destroy defenders. Perfect fit for our scheme. And give me Wylie in the 5th. Let that boy take it to the house on PR and let him compete for a WR spot.
Finally a little love for Wylie
Agreed. According to his coach, Sanu was compared to Ray Rice regarding his heart and work ethic. These are attributes that set great players apart from the rest.
I’m a fan of Sanu. Tough kid, great hands, good short area quickness and can throttle down quickly into and out of his breaks.
Ooofta, those Sanu highlights are pretty beastly. I gotta like that. My thinking though is that everyone who gets drafted is athletic enough to stand out at the college level. The thing that separates the good from the great is the character aspect. Does the player have the heart, desire, work ethic, motivation, and dedication to put in countless extra hours to make themselves the best, ala jerry rice. That is the kind of thing that doesn’t stand out in highlight footage. But I’m really optimistic that JH and TB have excellent judgement for good character guys.
I’ve been checking out potential receivers youtubes. (I’m on dial-up. It’s a snail-slow process.) The footage helps, but only a little.
The highlights show the splashy catches, but rarely the early part of the play. It’s hard to evaluate receivers when I see the big catch, but not the whole pattern.
Based on my limited footage, I’m still liking Hill. He would be a gamble, take at least a season to develop, and could even be a potential bust. But his deceptively smooth acceleration past DBs, size and ball skills would be too tempting. The big question… can he learn to run the crisp NFL pass patterns?
I think if Hill is there at #30 then the 49ers cannot resist his Physical Skills.
Can he learn how to run crisp NFL Patterns?
YES
One big component of the evaluation process is the one-on-one interviews these prospects go through. To this, the outside world is not really prevy to. But, this is the most critical aspect of the evaluation process according to Bill Walsh. In Jim Harbaugh’s words, sitting ‘knee to knee’ with somebody reveals a lot – such as work ethic, priorities, mental toughness, intelligence, etc.
He’s a project and I believe the team is looking for players that can contribute immediately.
I would take Randle or Wright over Hill. I think there is too much unknowen about Hill. Everyone jumped on his bandwagon cause of his speed at the combine, not sure if that translate to speed with pads on. I do agree with Grant on this one tho I would take Wright over Randle but I think the steal of the draft is going to be WR, KR, PR, Joe Adams and he should go in the third.
Jarius Wright is a better wide receiver than Joe Adams.
No he isn’t.
Good argument.
I’d be happy if the 49ers came away with 2 of Arkansas’ WRs – Jarius Wright and… Greg Childs!
Grant is correct that Wright is an under-appreciated prospect and has all the attributes to be a very good slot WR that can potentially also line up on the outside if he adds a bit more bulk to his frame to fight through the jam. I also like Kendall Wright though, and think Kendall is the better prospect.
Greg Childs is also under-appreciated. He played hurt last year and got caught behind Wright and Joe Adams for playing time and passes his way. When he was healthy in 2010, he looked like a player that would be in the 1st round conversation this year. Big guy that also has the quick burst, route running and strength to create separation. Also has above average hands and leaping ability, attacks the football, can make the tough catch and take a hit, and shows the ability to track the ball through the air. He’s a real sleeper prospect in this year’s draft.
Good call on Childs. He could be better than Blackmon, too.
Jarius Wright highlights: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXyA_xTRlYA
Those two catches one at 3.00 minutes in and then at 3:09, those catches were sick, reminded me of Donald Driver. He has great separation he is rarely covered tightly with his break away speed.
don’t thnk you should play scout grant…prefer if you provide opinions who’s day job it is to do this
You had one incorrect statement in your Randle evaluation. You said he caught passes from a quarterback that was “no good.” You are incorrect, he caught passes from a quarterback that was “god awful.” Go youtube Jordan Jefferson and you will see the error of your ways.
We should draft N. Bowmans replacement in this years draft because their isnt any way in hell we are gonna be able to re-sign him. Also Frank Gores replacement. I think those needs would be smart to address now.
What makes you so sure?
It will be difficult to keep/ afford 2 All Pro ILBs on the roster, while also keeping talent at other positions. When is Bowman’s contract due to expire? If its next year we can keep him one extra year by offering a high value RFA tender. Probably don’t need to get his replacement until next year’s draft.
Bowman has 2 years remaining on his rookie deal, no need to panic this year…
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/navorro-bowman/
grant when you said randall was the best pass catcher 2nd only to fleener did you forget justin blackmon
Fleener, Randle, Jarius Wright and Michael Floyd are better prospects than Blackmon. Marvin Jones and Kendall Wright might be better than Blackmon, too.
why do you think nfl scouts/GM’s are so high on him.
Because of the number of catches, yards and touchdowns he amassed the last two seasons while getting force-fed the ball in a spread offense against weak Big XII defenses. He’s less talented than Dez Bryant or Rashaun Woods were coming out of Oklahoma State, but he may have more drive than those two. He’s a second round talent who’s been over-hyped – it happens to wide receivers every year.
I like Jarius Wright but he wasnt even the best WR on his own team. Joe Adams was. You would know if you watched Arkansas at all last year. You can’t just regurgatate(m/s) stats. You have to watched these kids play. I do think Blackmon is vastly overated. Same with Randle, who IS NOT first round talent. I’d take McNutt over Randle at this point. Marvin Jones was the best WR propsect I was this year. That kid is going to make some noise at the next level. And Joe Adams will be better than Jarius Wright, though I like them both.
Wright had more catches for more yards per catch than Adams. Don’t over-think it.
I totally agree with you Grant on the recievers. Better for the niners. The other teams can draft these wr. We will get our RG and better wr.
Not overthinking at all Grant. Adams was used as a weapon. Wright was used as a WR. That had alot to do with the way their stats ended up. Stats never tell the whole story, especially in college. This isnt Money Ball. You have to actuall watch these guys play. I like Jarius Wright but there Jarius Wright’s littered all through this draft. DeVon Wylie, TJ Graham, Joe Adams, Kashif Moore, Travis Benjamin, lots of guys with similar skill-set. There is nothing really that seperates JW from those others in being the “must have” guy. They’re all rated similar to me, though I think Graham, Wylie and Adams are just a notch above the others.
Yes, Joe Adams is better than Wright. Grant is still being naive and amateurish in comparing only stats. With those things, many 30-3 will follow but he still doesn’t understand it. Not only that but Adams will fill a nice PR job in case Ginn gets injured. Grant goes only by stats, he’s so easy.
You offer no argument for Adams, just a straw man for why I’m stupid.
My argument is that I’ve seen Arkansas games and you haven’t. And in each game Adams was better. Plus he can do more. Your only argument is stats. I can get that from any site or a fair weather fan from the street. You can do better, hope you start doing it…
I don’t think its fair to label Crabtree as a possesion WR. I don’t think it’s really fair to grade any of our WR’s because we do not have a quality QB as of yet.
Why take another TE when you have Davis and Walker? Just because Harbaugh coached him? Malcolm Floyd would be the best choice but I doubt he will be around before the 15th pick. Honestly Randle is probably going to be the WR that maybe around. I think he is a sleeper.
Michael Floyd! Malcolm is already in the league. I know they have the same initials but dang.
Nothing wrong with being a possession WR. Some quality WRs have made their living by being possession-type WRs – Hines Ward springs to mind straight away. These guys are very important for consistently moving the chains. I hope MC turns into a great possession WR.
Crux of the argument is, outside of Vernon Davis, the 49ers haven’t had an explosive, big-play WR on their roster for a while. Hopefully Randy Moss and Mario Manningham can help with that this year, but longer term we need to draft 1 or 2 guys that can make big plays down field consistently, and thereby open up the field more for underneath routes and the running game.
At first I wasn’t on the Stephen Hill bandwagon, but now I’m all aboard. For someone who comes from a run-oriented college system, don’t you think he fits the mold of one of Harbaugh/Roman’s guys? They love a WR that can effectively block. He has the perfect combination of speed, size, and blocking.
His potential/upside is unreal. Imagine the possibility and benefit of Hill learning from Randy Moss.
Hill doesn’t have the lateral quickness or suddenness of Moss. He’s not a great high-pointer, either. He didn’t run routes in college. He’s a huge risk, probably a gimmick player who’s success will be scheme and quarterback dependent.
Grant,
I think you’re Dead Wrong if you just think Hill is a “gimmick player”
This guy is a Hard Worker who is going to take every opportunity to be the best WR he can be. He’s also an impressive Run Blocker who uses his Physical Size to maul CB’s. Jimbo likes that.
But he didn’t run routes in college and he has below average lateral quickness.
The problem with Hill is he is so raw. Anything you try to do with him in the NFL is going to be a new challenge for him that you have hope he can handle. He has the physical ability, but 49 catches in his College career? I’m not gambling a first round pick on such a huge question mark if I’m an NFL GM. I think he’s a second round guy with huge upside IF he shows an ability to learn a lot in a short period of time.
I like Randle a lot and would not be at all upset with him as our pick if he falls to #30.
I hadn’t given much thought to Jarius Wright, but Grant makes a good point. As some of the posters like to point out in regards to Fleener, there are other similar options to Kendall Wright later on in the draft.
I’m still thinking after all this focus we’ve put on offensive playmakers, the team is going to take a defensive player #1. It would be fitting.
Randle super fast? His 4.55 40 says he has ok speed. I never saw super fast when I watched him play. Randle is not first round talent, IMO. I’d take Marvin Jones, McNutt, Quick and a host of others over him. Not that I think he’s a bad prospect, just not the first round lock these draft pundits are making him out to be.
Hill has what you can’t teach. He has ELITE athletic tools from which to mold. And if you have been paying attention to these last two drafts, Baalke likes guys most experts consider “projects” or guys who appear to have all the tools physical but were said to be “raw”. All Done, Cully, Iupati, A. Davis are prime examples of the Baalke School of General Managing. Take the guys with huge physical upside and trust in your staff to coach them up on the technical side of things. Hill is right up Baalke’s alley.
Have to agree on Randle – I don’t think he’s a first rounder. He’s got everything you look for athleticially, and he’s got good enough speed and is a hard worker so he could develop into a good WR, but I always have concerns over guys that are held in check by top defenders. Good not great prospect in my opinion.
My impression is the only times Randle got held in check during SEC play was when he got double covered.
@ Grant-
Not debating the point, just wondering about your view (not only yours by a long shot!) on Hill’s ‘lack of lateral quickness’: is this opinion from scouts analysis of film? Like how he comes out of breaks? Or from Cone Drills and such? I’d agree there’s both development time and overall risk with Hill.
I do think you’re under-rating Blackmon a bit; not better than Dez I agree with. Not better than Rashaun Woods? I’ll strongly disagree on that point.
Plus they already have their “possession” WR in Crabtree. Randle seems like a more polished Crabtree. Niners need someone that can stretch the field.
When it comes to vertical leap:
Randle :31 inches
Hill: 39 inches
Those extra 8 inches are going to come in handy in the redzone.
Randle averaged 17.3 yards per catch in the SEC last season. Stretching the field is what he does.
When don’t eight inches come in handy?
No its not Grant. Its obvious you dont watch much college ball. Understanding his QB situations wasn’t the best, but he still didnt stretch the field as you put it. He took deep curls and quick hit routes for big gains. Doesn’t mean he can win battles on the outside against NFL level CBs in press coverage. When matched-up against the better CBs(Kilpatrick) he didnt virtually nothing. Like I said before I like Randle, just not as a first rounder. Big question marks there.
Spitblood. Go away.
Randle’s big selling point is going up against the best defensive backs on his own team and in the SEC day after day.
-LLL- -LLL- -LLL-
I’m agreeing completely with all the concerns about Hill’s flawed skill set. Not many catches. Will have to learn route running (not a minor obstacle). He may even be a total bust. All true.
So why is Hill (next to Fleener) my draft crush? Speed. If not quite equal to his 40 time, but just below it and that’s still blazing.
Hill has that Jerry Rice “deceptive speed.” I’m not saying Hill will ever be a Jerry Rice. Ever. But that smooth, long stride fools defensive backs and NFL film reviewers alike. Long striders may look slow, but the real measure of football speed is the receivers position relative to the DB covering him.
DBs see Hills stride and think he’s not full speed, and suddenly Hill is parallel to them, then past them. It’s a thing of beauty.
Another compliment to Hill’s speed is he ability to accelerate after fighting DBs for passes. So many blazers have dead legs after contact. Hill is explosive post contact. At least as fast as before the arrival of the ball.
Couldn’t agree with you more on your Take about Hill.
He’s going to prove alot of people wrong.
i loved hill before the combine when i thought you might get him in the late 2nd to 3rd rd. he is a gamble in the 1st rd to untested to risk that early of a pick
I look at Stephen Hill and see the Georgia Tech program that produced Calvin Johnson and Demaryius Thomas. For a run first team they have turned out some impressive receivers. Three is the charm, draft him if he’s there.
You might be on to something here Andrew….
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/15/georgia-tech-coach-says-stephen-hill-is-ready-for-an-nfl-offense/
Grant, what makes this Wright better than Kendall?
Are you just going by yards per catch?
Was JW the primary target like KW?
KW was RJlll primary receiver and defenses still couldnt stop him.
Not saying JW is not better, but his numbers could be deceiving.
I’ll check him on YouTube to get a better idea.
JW was the primary target for Arkansas this season. He led the SEC in receiving yards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXyA_xTRlYA
Holy snikies…. Grant’s “wright” about this one. That kid is good. He’s freakin’ DeSean Jackson II. I’d be willing to bet this kid goes in late first, early second. That kid is good…. Nice find Grant….. like that old parable…. something about walnuts and squirrels. Can’t remember how it goes.
OK, I’m sold. Old Mr. Dial-Up is going to download this JW youtube. Off to do chores for an hour while it loads.
See Grant, let me give you some advice… Lol. (I only write this because you asked me not to give you advice).
When you find gold, no matter how you find it (research on your own or someone emails you a link and shares their discovery with you), you have to go bigger. Trumpet the hell outta your find ’cause they offset the stinkers. And … no offense…. but ya got some stinkers under your belt, son. Lol.
So to offset those stinkers, get into it a little more. The title of this should have been “I Found a Gem for Baalke!” Then go “wright” to the Youtube link. People don’t want to watch your link. They want to find their own genius, so shove it in their faces, beat your chest. Climb the Empire State and beat your chest while the airplanes circle. Unleash the beast….. make them witness your geneous. Unless you didn’t find him and some flunky emailed you the link. Either way, you clouded your message with other wide receivers in this article and you aren’t getting the appropriate Wright attention…. Never fear, I’ll help you fix your marketing problems. I’m a marketing geneous.
Wright is your slot receiver, not Alshon. I just watched that again, and I’m gonna say Wright is a solid second round pick. I think he’s somewhere in between Dexter McClusterphuck and DeSean Jackson – without Dexter’s running capabilities. Although, like Dexter, Wright does display good toughness going after the ball – more so than DeSean. Also like his interviews. Basically, this guy, for the 49ers, would be an upgrade to Kyle Williams – and that is an area of need. The SOB in me cuts players with concussion problems.
I agree with you Spit. Wright looks like a Victor Cruz clone from the slot.
grant i bet you 1 dollar that blackmon will be the best rookie wr in the draft. he will catch a minimum of 60 balls next yr. he possesses great hands and the kind of burst that creates seperation. i agree that his stats were inflated by weak big 12 D’s and playing in the spread but the same thing could be said about RGIII and he is a stud too
I will take you up on that bet Old Coach. Kendall Wright has great numbers because of the gimmicky Baylor offense, and catching 4-5 screen passes every game.
Jarius Wright has an explosive first step and has the potential to be an excellent slot receiver ala Victor Cruz. The only concern I have from watching him on film is that their isn’t much there to see how he can handle getting past a jam early in his route.
You’re on. Blackmon won’t even be a top-5 pass catcher from this class.
I want some of that action old coach
Hi Grant. I’m curious if you watch full games to grade out players on the coaches tape (And hopefully more than just a few) or do you just watch “Highlight” reels on youtube?
Off topic, but according to The_ChrisMyers it looks like the 49ers will open at Green Bay in the Fox national game….
We are going to find out at 4 pm tomorrow. The schedule will be released.
sfgate has the signing info.
Look it up.
@undercenter
It is a very good deal for the Niners. Shows how many bad GM’s are out there. Grant is better than anybody the Raiders have, and at least 1/2 of the rest of the NFL
Whoops. This was supposed to be in the thread below.
Sweet! The game that everyone (me at the least) was expecting to see in the playoffs. We win… I feel it. Can’t wait to get the season started already!!
Grant signed 1 year tender for just a smidge over $1 million.
Thats a good signing. He had a good solid year last year.
Teams can still sign Grant. They’d have to give the 49ers a sixth or seventh… can’t remember which. Grant could still be taken from us…. especially if teams don’t find what they’re looking for in the draft. Don’t know the rules, though, regarding “after” the draft – meaning if they sign Grant away from us after the draft, do they pay us a 6th round pick in 2013?
I think its a 7th
No, other teams cannot still sign Grant. He signed the tender, which means he is under contract to the 49ers for the 2012 season.
Also, teams cannot sign other teams’ RFAs after the draft. The deadline for signing other teams’ RFAs falls before the draft. This year, the deadline is Friday.
It is a 7th…
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=sportsxchange-000600836_49ers-tender-offers-to-grant-brock
It was a 7th…
LOL Claude. Correcting this guy is turning into a full time job.
When did Grant sign his tender?
Today…
Ah, didn’t see the news. Thought DS9 was assuming nobody would offer Grant anything.
Ah, didn’t see the news.
You responded to a comment about Grant signing his tender.
You are more stubborn than jordan and bay when it comes to being wrong and refusing to admit it.
Wait a minute. jordan hasn’t been posting since you showed up on the blog. And bay only showed up to agree with you.
Which one are you?
Claude – Grant signed his tender today. Give your ego a rest, dude. Oh yeah, and Alex Smith is a terrible quarterback.
What does AS have to do with anything I or Claude or Jack or rocket or undercenter wrote about Grant being signed?
Talk about obsession. It is not the Smithers who are obsessed with AS. Have a closet man crush do you?
Wait, what?
So out of curiosity, I looked up scouting reports on J. Wright. Here’s an overview from CBS Sports:
“A four-year starter, Wright was a four-star receiver recruit out of high school, choosing in-state Arkansas over Florida, Oklahoma and Mississippi. He contributed as a true freshman in 2008 (seven starts), recording 19 catches for 348 yards (18.3-yard average) and two touchdowns. Wright started all but one game in 2009 as a sophomore, finishing second on the team with 41 receptions for 681 yards (16.6) and five scores.
He started all 13 games in 2010 as a junior, recording 42 catches for 788 yards (18.8) and five touchdowns. Wright had his best season in 2011 as a senior (12 starts), finishing with a team-best 66 catches for an SEC-best 1,117 yards (16.9) and 12 scores, earning first-team All-SEC honors.
Wright had the most productive career for a receiver in Arkansas history, leaving with numerous receiving records, including receiving yards in a single game (vs. Texas A&M), which he achieved in one half. His lack of size and measureables are a red flag, but he was the best all-around receiver at a stacked position for the Razorbacks and was the quarterback’s favorite target.
Wright doesn’t look like much, but is instinctive with a great feel for the position and has very reliable hands, among the best in this year’s class — a Eddie Royal/Antonio Brown type of player who is best in the slot where he can manipulate the middle of the field, be effective at all levels and find ways to get open. ”
“Weaknesses: Lacks ideal size and strength and is a smallish target with a lean, frail-looking frame — marginal bulk with little growth potential. Can be overmatched at the line of scrimmage when physical defenders get their hands on him and can be pushed around on the perimeter — struggles in press coverage and was knocked on his back more than a few times. Possesses smaller hands (81/2″) and needs to look passes into his hands more consistently — gets excited about running after the catch and needs to secure the pass cleanly before taking off. Gets himself in trouble with body catches. Has limited experience on special teams with only 8 punt returns and an average of 5.9 yards in college. Has some durability concerns after missing time in 2011 with a knee strain.
NFL Comparison: Eddie Royal, Denver Broncos” or Steve Smith of the Panthers.
We know who Alex Smith is, but we don’t know yet who Crabtree is. We know that Crabtree is overpaid because Eugene Parker took McCloughan and Paraag (sp) out back behind the woodshed and taught them both a lesson, but regarding Crabtree’s play, you can’t label the guy … yet. I think Crabtree hated SF until Harbaugh got here. I think Crabtree did just enough to get paid…. being advised by his agent and guys like Deion Sanders. In my opinion, last year marked the first year that Crabtree bought in. You give me Singletary and Alex Smith and I’m not giving you 100%. I might…. MIGHT give you 65%, if my parents are at the game.
Crabtree is good along the sidelines… or at least he’s learning. He’s learning how to setup cornerbacks, turn their hips, and he’s learning to develop chemistry by talking with his coaches and even Alex – which was a first last year. But there were a lot, and I mean a lot of times last year that Crabtree was wide open in the end zone and a good qb would have hit him for a TD. Just off the top of my head, I can name four games that Crabtree should have caught a TD pass and Smith either missed him with a bad throw or didn’t even see him and threw an incomplete pass to someone else. If Crabtree had caught those passes, we’d be saying different things about him. And he’s still learning. With a good qb, Crabtree might actually become something. But Jerry Rice was right about Crabtree – he needs to work on becoming a better conditioned athlete.
Its actually the other way around Splitblood. Paarag took Eugene Parker to the woodshed on the Crabtree contract. He got a “slotted deal” for being #10 pick and then the Niners got an extra year for the 49ers on the back end of his contract since he held out so long, and they filling his contract with a “diva clauses” that requires a near 100% participation in off-season workouts. I’m not sure what mis-information you read as the Niners took Eugene and the Crabtree camp to school on this contract and got a lot of praise from league sources.
I don’t think so. Crabtree is getting paid roughly 6 million per year. The productivity of comparable receivers – guys like Dez Bryant and Jeremy Maclin, dictates that Crabtree should be making 2 million per year. The guaranteed money that Parker negotiated makes Crabtree’s contract almost impossible to re-negotiate. If it wasn’t for the guaranteed money, trust me, the 49ers would be looking to restructure Crabtree.
Honestly spitblood do you have the correct info on anything you post about? Crabtree is being paid on the old system which is why his money is high compared to the players you listed. He also had to sign a 6 year deal instead of 5 because the Niners refused to count the games he missed in his contract. His contract is full of Diva clauses he has to fullfil to get his money.
In other words, Crabs and his agent got their asses handed to them and failed spectacularly in their attempt to strong arm the Niners into paying him more money than DHB which is what he wanted.
So far, he hasn’t even lived up to his draft position. Hopefully he can take a big step this season.
@Spitblood:
More proof that you don’t know what you are talking about. Here are the contract details for the players drafted around Crabtree. His contract is right in the slot between 9 and 11. Parker schooled nobody. Actually, that’s not true. He schooled Crabtree. Parker’s fee was a percentage of the contract’s total value. Because the 49ers insisted on a 6 year deal, the total contract number went from 5 years/$27 million to 6 years/$32.5 million. Parker got to apply his percentage to an additional $5.5 million
7. Darrius Heyward-Bey WR Oakland – 5 years, $38.25 million ($23.5M guaranteed)
8. Eugene Monroe OT Jacksonville – 5 years, $35.4 million ($19.2M guaranteed)
9. B.J. Raji DT Green Bay – 5 years, $28.5 million ($18M guaranteed)
10. Michael Crabtree WR San Francisco – 6 years, $32 million ($17M guaranteed)
11. Aaron Maybin DE Buffalo – 5 years, $25 million ($15M guaranteed)
Oops, my mistake. Crabtree’s contract is for $32 million, not $32.5 million. Parker was able to collect his percentage on an extra $5 million.
Claude,
You’re slow. No offense. It has nothing to do with the slots. Let me say that again for the cheap seats. It has nothing to do with the slots. You got that? It has everything to do with guaranteed money. The 49ers are stuck in Micheal Crabtree’s contract. You tell me this – right now are the 49ers getting value for Crabtree’s productivity relative to his pay? Hell no.
The 49ers gained leverage every day that Crabtree held out. Every day. Remember Mike Williams? Remember what holding out did to his career? Crabtree wasn’t going to holdout. Eugene Parker was up against it… playing a foolish bluff. The closer it got to the end of the season, the more Crabtree was screwed. The 49er should have paid Crabtree less and less each week. But instead they, they let Eugene win. What they should have done (and this isn’t retrospect or hindsight because I was saying it then) was lessen the amount of guaranteed money each week Crabtree held out. Hell, Claude… he was already labeled a diva. You holdout all season long to re-enter the draft and do you really think teams were going to draft him top ten? No chance. And you lose a year of salary?
Eugene Parker took McCloughan and Paraag out behind the woodshed. Parker ran a bluff, and McCloughan folded holding a royal fluff.
flush… lol.
@Spitblood:
Wow. You really don’t understand NFL salaries, the rookie slotting practice or contract negotiations. You’re the triple threat of ignorance.
Not only was Crabtree’s total contract appropriate for the 10 draft pick, his guaranteed money was appropriate for the 10th pick. Actually, that’s not true. Because the 49ers forced him to sign a 6 year deal, Crabtree’s guaranteed money ended up being substandard for the No. 10 pick. Raji got $18 million guaranteed on a 5 year deal. That breaks down to a guarantee of $3.3 million per year. Crabtree received $17 million on a 6 year deal. That breaks down to $2.83 million per year. Maybin received $15 million guaranteed on a 5 year deal. That’s $3 million per year.
Your suggestion that the 49ers should have “lessen[ed] the amount of guaranteed money each week Crabtree held out” betrays your ignorance of contract negotiations, particularly NFL contract negotiations. A lot of amateurs call for teams to lower their contract offers to holdout players in an effort to force them to sign. And yet, teams rarely, if ever, do that. Why not? Because it rarely, if ever, works. In addition, it’s not the way you negotiate with someone you with whom you hope to have a long, mutually beneficial relationship.
Yes, but what makes it work is leverage. The 49ers had all the leverage. Let me ask you this – if you were Michael Crabtree, would you have held out and re-entered the draft the following year? Simple question. Yes or no?
I’ll answer for you. No, you wouldn’t have. Losing a year is expensive, about five different ways. It would have literally cost Crabtree millions. Maybe 10 million dollars to holdout and re-enter the draft. That’s leverage. That’s 49er leverage.
“Eugene? You want to play hardball because you have a Larry Fitzgerald contract reputation to uphold? Okay. We just pulled our offer, and we are now offering you two million less in guarantees. You don’t like it, go holdout all year long and re-enter the draft the following year with now more evidence that your client is a diva. Good luck with that. We aren’t going to get much out of Michael this year anyway (now that you’ve held out for several weeks into the season and missed all of training camp). In addition, we might get compensation picks for your holdout, and we won’t have to deal with you as an agent again. Go fish.”
Instead they folded up camp and gave in…. and now Crabtree is making 6 million a year when other guys like Maclin and Dez Bryant, who are producing the same amount, are making 1/3 that amount each year.
@spitblood
You really, really need to take a look at this website.
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/michael-crabtree/
I’m well aware of that website… and the numbers are consistent with my argument.
@Spitblood:
Wow, so many things wrong with that comment, and so little time to correct them. Let’s just take the first two.
We know who Alex Smith is
After only one year with Harbaugh to overcome the six years of Nolan/Singletary? No, we don’t.
We know that Crabtree is overpaid because Eugene Parker took McCloughan and Paraag (sp) out back behind the woodshed and taught them both a lesson
You really don’t know what you are talking about, do you? The contract Crabtree signed in October 2009 was basically the same contract that the 49ers offered in July. The 49ers did not budge, and Crabtree’s holdout gained him nothing. In fact, the holdout cost him because the 49ers inserted diva clauses into the contract that require him to meet certain offseason participation benchmarks in order to get the full benefit of the contract. Without the holdout, he wouldn’t need to meet those benchmarks to get his money. Plus, I don’t believe he was paid for the games he missed.
By the way, Crabtree’s contract pays him according to where he was drafted, not according to where he thought he should have been drafted. Parker swung and missed in the Crabtree negotiations.
If Crabtree is overpaid, it’s because his performance hasn’t matched that of a No. 10 draft pick.
Another commenter made these exact same misstatements of fact a few months ago. What name were you using then?
Claude,
Yeah, yeah. I know. You want to try and sell us that Alex is going to have a “BREAK OUT YEAR,” in 2012. LMAO. I think I’ve heard that before. Let me guess, Smith is going to be a Pro Bowler next year, or he’ll really be elite next year. Whatever. Stop trying to sell me that Smith will improve next year. We know exactly who he is… and he’s a stinker. He’s a very, very limited game manager who nobody wanted when he hit the open free agent market. If it wasn’t for the 49ers, Alex Smith would be a backup in the NFL, and guess what? He’ll probably be a backup with the 49ers in 2012.
Regarding Crabtree…. take a look at the comparables. Go find me three WRs who had comparable stats last year to Crabtree, then lookup how much they got paid, and make an argument that Crabtree’s contract was a good one for the 49ers. Good luck.
Regarding Crabtree…. take a look at the comparables. Go find me three WRs who had comparable stats last year to Crabtree, then lookup how much they got paid, and make an argument that Crabtree’s contract was a good one for the 49ers. Good luck.
They had to pay him commiserate with a #10 overall pick. The year he was drafted there was no rookie cap. He was paid based on what the 10th pick made the year before with a nominal increase which happened every year. He was going to get that money no matter what. The point of contention, was the fact Crabs and Parker felt he was better than DHB, should have been drafted higher, and therefore deserved more money than the 10th pick would normally be entitled too.
Not only did he not get more than the 10th pick should, he wound up averaging less because he had to sign a 6 year deal as opposed to 5.
Rocket,
You’re missing my point. Parker was smart to evenly disperse guaranteed money from the start of the contract to the end, and McCloughan and Paraag should never have agreed to that. Why? Because the 49ers are stuck paying Crabtree 6 million per year when he’s only worth 2. It has nothing to do with the slots. It has everything do to with the when the guaranteed money was scheduled to be paid. Ginn was restructured. Why couldn’t Crabtree have been restructured as well?
@Spitblood:
Now, you just don’t make any sense.
First, given that you consistently demonstrate an ignorance of basic facts, I am skeptical that you know how Crabtree’s contract is structured. How much of his guaranteed money is truly guaranteed and how much is guaranteed only for injury? How much of the guaranteed money is due each year?
Second, it is to the player’s advantage to get as much of his guaranteed money paid up front. It is to the team’s advantage to delay or spread out those payments. If the Crabtree’s contract spreads out the payment of the guaranteed money, it is because the 49ers wanted to do that.
Read my response regarding the context surrounding the Crabtree negotiations above…
Read my response regarding the context surrounding the Crabtree negotiations above…
I did. It doesn’t help your argument.
I doubt you remember the context around the negotiations. Would you have held out if you were Crabtree?
@spit
No. Not even close.
The Niners were chosen by the experts to win their division that year. MC had the best opportunity of any Niner WR since TO. A chance to learn how to be a pro HOF type player from Issac Bruce.
The fact he held out prevented him from learning how a HOF WR does his stuff. If you were a physicist and your boss was Albert Einstein, would you hold out? NO. NO. NO.
Same situation with MC. Except MC held out. YES. YES. YES. The first of a series of really bad decisions he’s made since he was drafted.
Spit,
We’re heading in a completely different direction now. Your initial point was that the Niners got taken to the woodshed by Parker, which isn’t true. The Niners got the deal they wanted with Crabtree all along which was a contract slotted between the 9th and 10th spot in the draft.
You are now questioning the way they slotted the guaranteed money and it makes no difference. Guaranteed money is guaranteed money. It means Crabs is collecting it no matter what. It doesn’t matter how it’s dispersed. If he were cut tomorrow, the Niners would be charged 8.5 mill against the cap. They are paying that money no matter how it’s dispersed.
As to Ginn being restructured and Crabtree not? Well Ginn had two years left on his deal and most of the upfront money had already been paid to him by Miami. It was either get cut and try to find a job, or take less money and have his contract shortened by a year. It was a prove it year for Ginn that he gambled on and lost.
Crabtree is going into year 4 of a 6 year deal. He’s not going to restructure and the Niners aren’t going to cut him when he was their leading receiver last year. If he doesn’t break out a little more this season, then they may give him an ultimatum to restructure or get released next year.
*11th* not 10th.
DS9,
The really big issue was not that he held out a few weeks into the season, but whether or not he would holdout and then re-enter the draft. Crabtree and Parker made a huge mistake taking the negotiations that far, but it still worked out for them because McCloughan and Paraag were soft. If Eugene had tried that with AJ Smith in San Diego, the Chargers would have handed Eugene and Crabtree their lunch. Paraag, McCloughan and Jed York just couldn’t say no. And when you’re in a negotiation, if you can’t say no, you’re done. But the bigger issue was that Eugene knew Jed York couldn’t handle the PR backlash of losing out on a number one pick. Eugene played it perfectly and right now the 49ers are still payin’ for it.
@Claude Balls
Do you have anything original to add to this blog or do you troll around cutting and pasting crap every time someone is critical of Alex Smith?
Don’t worry, Nick. I’ve been crushing Claude and his merry band of Smith followers for a few days now. I’ve got Claude close to certifiably insane.
@Spitblood:
Holdouts happen. Teams rarely, if ever, play the we-will-reduce-our-offer-for-every-day-you-hold-out card. They just don’t. I cannot think of any team doing it recently. Do you have any examples?
I am not sure why you bring up AJ Smith and the Chargers. When have they ever used that tactic? When have they ever paid a rookie outside of his slot?
The 49ers held firm to their July offer, and Crabtree and Parker caved. I have no idea why you are trying to claim that the opposite happened, but it didn’t. The fact is that the holdout cost Crabtree. He will hit free agency (and thus his next big contract, if he gets one) later than those drafted around him, and he has to meet the diva incentives in order to get his money. If anyone got played, it was Crabtree.
Would I have held out if I were Crabtree? No. The 49ers offered a contract appropriate for the No. 10 pick. There was no reason to believe that the 49ers would break the slotting formula, and they didn’t.
@NickRow: Funny, I thought this debate was about Crabtree’s holdout and subsequent contract. Why are you obsessing on Alex Smith again?
@Spitblood: The only thing you have crushed is our hopes that you had intelligent and informed opinions to offer. So far, you are 0-for-everything.
@Spit
I am not a MC lover. Ask around if you doubt that.
But the Niner FO did what was necessary to get their #1 Draft pick who was the best WR in college history onto the field, all while not giving MC what he wanted.
It isn’t the FO fault that MC has failed to live up to even being a starting WR on any of the other playoff teams in lat years playoffs. That falls on him.
Spit,
So clever of you to pretend not to understand the time value of money. What a hoot, you rascal! You almost got me again. Anyone with half a brain realizes that money is more valuable the sooner you receive it, and less value when you receive it in the future. So, when you said how smart it was of Parker to spread out the money over the life of the contract, instead of getting as much as possible up front, I knew for sure you just pretending to be completely ignorant of the facts. So sly and smart, Spit.
@exgolfer:
He’s ignorant and stubborn. It’s a winning combination.
ExGolfer – I do understand the time value of money. As a player you want your guaranteed money evenly dispersed throughout the entire contract. If you don’t have that guaranteed money evenly dispersed throughout the entire contract, in a relatively proportionate way, the team can just cut you. It’s in the team’s best interest to front-load guaranteed money. It’s in the players’ best interest to have it even dispersed.
So Spit.
You would say “No.” to somebody who offered you $20 million all at once. But “Yes” to somebody who offered you $20 million over a 6 year period instead? Given the choice between the two.
Why not take the $20 million upfront, then go to another team/resign in another few years and get yourself another $20 million? That way, you have $40 million in the same time it would take you to get the $20 million paid out over time.
I hope you don’t do anything at your job which requires numbers or money.
@Spitblood:
You’re just desperate for attention, right? That’s why you keep posting these utterly ridiculous comments, isn’t it?
Did you really write
I do understand the time value of money
and
It’s in the team’s best interest to front-load guaranteed money. It’s in the players’ best interest to have it even dispersed
in the same comment?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Stop, you’re killing me.
just had to jump in here…. Spitblood suggesting that he’s “crushing Claude and his merry band of Smith followers”
No. Not quite. It was painful, but I read the posts. Spitblood has demonstrated his complete ignorance on salary contracts and how they relate to draft position.
Several posts earlier he demonstrated his complete ignorance on restricted free agency (see him put his foot in his mouth above re. Larry Grant’s signing).
With insight like that, I’m not entirely shocked that he’s also predicted Josh Johnson will be the next great 49er QB. What’d we get him for, a bag of used hammers? If Spitblood’s right, 31 other teams are going to be kicking themselves for COMPLETELY IGNORING HIM FOR 3 YEARS. If he’s wrong, it just goes on the pile with the rest of his statements.
Spit,
If a player gets a big signing bonus, it doesn’t make them any easier to cut later in the contract. For cap purposes, the bonus is averaged over the years of the contract, and, should a player get cut before the end of the contract, the portion of the bonus money assigned to the remaining years on the contract is applied to the current year’s cap. Which is the same thing that happens when the money is “spread out”, as you put it.
The only difference is the team gets to hold on to the money longer.
Claude,
To be fair, Spit put those points in two different sentences.
@ex
claude quoted properly. He didn’t pull a BigP and put periods where none existed completely changing the meaning of the sentence/points.
And when I read it at least, I interpreted it as you said, and claude implied. 2 separate sentences.
Damn… I feel like Jason and the Argonauts. You cut one head off the hydra and seventeen more Smith lovers show up.
WHOOOOOOOOOOO Sucks worse than Alex Smith?????
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-BOODDDDYYYY!!!!
Claude,
Plenty of self esteem, too.
It might help your point Spit if you were as heroic and noble as Jason was.
You’re not though. So the analogy is falling without merit.
P.S. Jason was trying to save somebody. You are trying to destroy somebody. Not the same thing at all.
Ex Golfer? Are you a Smith lover?
DS9 – Again not true. I’m trying to save my liver. His name is Pete, and he has rights.
Don’t blame your alcoholism on AS. There are a lot of people who don’t drink alcohol for a variety of reasons. Maybe you should try and follow their lead some day. Maybe the AS dislike would go away with it, and your liver will be healthy again as AS wins the Super Bowl.
If you are a fan, you want that to happen. And if it does happen, don’t just dismiss him as “going along for the ride.”
If I have to wait for Alex Smith to win a Super Bowl, my liver will be anything but healthy.
>>I’ve been crushing Claude and his merry band of Smith followers for a few days now
Even just from this thread, the complete opposite is absolutely obvious.
You were the guy who was banned under previous management here, right? That is becoming obvious as well.
>>WHOOOOOOOOOOO Sucks worse than Alex Smith????? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-BOODDDDYYYY!!!!
Pretty sad when that is all you have left. He was somewhat fun while he lasted, what with that JJ mancrush, but stick a fork in spit, he’s done.
@Spitblood
Don’t sweat it. The Smithers can’t argue the fact that Smith sucks so, instead they jump on your take on Crabtree.
Bottomline on Crabtree, York couldn’t afford to lose Crabtree to a holdout and then see Crabtree re-enter the draft – suffering further PR damage, and Eugene knew it. If Crabtree had re-entered the draft the following year, Crabtree would have lost 10 million dollars. Crabtree never would have re-entered the draft. Eugene bluffed and won. A good GM would have called that bluff and lowered the guaranteed money each game Crabtree missed. If you’re in a negotiation and you can’t say no, you’re screwed.
A good GM would have called that bluff and lowered the guaranteed money each game Crabtree missed.
And your examples of NFL teams that have successfully used that strategy are …?
How about ones that have even attempted it?
AJ Smith during the Vincent Jackson negotiations.
NickRow,
Spit only got pounded because he was completely wrong about Crabtree’s contract. Very weak to use the Smith arguement for cover, very weak.
Ex Golfer, Claude is the one getting his ass handed to him. You’re siding with Claude because you’re a Smith fan. Nice try.
Hey, yeah… Scot McCloughan…. Paraag? You guys mind coming over here, behind the woodshed to sign this Micheal Crabtree contract worth six million per year when Crabtree is five weeks into the season and there’s no way he’s going to holdout and re-enter the draft? I have the contract right over here…. yeah, behind the woodshed.
Spit,
How was it productive for AJ Smith to handle the negotiations with Vincent Jackson the way he did?
The Chargers barely had VJ on the field two years ago, had him one more year then lost him for no compensation [with VJ getting a huge contract]. Wow, AJ really showed him.
Vincent Jackson has said he learned from this experience and he would do things differently if he could do it over again. That’s great, but how does that help the Chargers?
Spit,
You’re wrong on both counts. Rocket and Claude are killing you on this one.
As for me being a Smith fan, I am to the extent that he’s the 49ers starting QB. If JH feels that CK, JJ or ST give the 49ers a better chance to win, I’ll be totally on board with the change.
I feel Smith improved last year and is much more likely to improve further this year, than he is to regress or level off. To me the question is, how much will he improve. Clearly, you feel otherwise. That’s fine, the only thing that’s certain, is we’re going to find out in a couple of months.
@Spitblood:
You call that success?
@ex
And if I had a time machine or was a seer, I wouldn’t sign any of them. MC or V Jackson. That Raider game showed me everything I needed to know about VJ.
“Oh. There is the game winning ball in the air. It is coming at me. I’ll just stand here and let some defender who is a foot shorter than me just jump in front of me and catch it for the Int. I won’t try to jump or knock the ball out or anything.”
What a loser. Not worth the money for a coach seat on an airplane to bring him in.
Spit,
The only concession the 49ers gave Parker / Crabtree is they fluffed the contract up so they could save face.
ExGolfer – The beauty is that Crabtree could be somebody if he didn’t have one of the worst incumbent starting qbs in the league throwing him the football. Did you know that Alex Smith has the 19th worst stats in the NFL, AND that Alex Smith is paid accordingly by Harbaalke? I mean, really, how is Crabtree going to live up to expectations with Smith throwing him the football? Think Eugene Parker knew that? I do.
Claude Balls – Vincent wasn’t a success or failure with AJ, but more of a lesson in what you do with a tough negotiation. The cutoff for a year in the NFL is week ten (active player status). Vincent took it to week ten, then had to report or it would have cost him, like Crabtree, millions…. AJ Smith knew it and called Vincent’s bluff. Vincent was saying all along… “I’m holding out all year, I’ve invested well.” But even millionaires don’t walk away from more millions, Vincent reported week 10. AJ won. If the 49ers had called Eugene’s bluff, it would have started to cost Crabtree millions, and Crabtree would have signed a lesser contract… and the contract would be more in line today with the production Crabtree is seeing.
Call it what you want spit.
But the team you claim to love has signed AS 4 times. If somebody you love has had that many chances to get rid of somebody, and didn’t, what does that say about them? And the strength of your love of the team to constantly doubt them?
If you love something, you support them. If you find yourself not supporting them a lot, then you don’t love them. Time to move on to something/somebody else for you then.
“If you love something, you support it.” You mean like how Jim Harbaugh went after Matt Hasselbeck then Peyton Manning? Hey dude, I’m only doin’ what Jim did.
Trollin’, trollin’, trollin’ on the website
Trollin’, trollin’, trollin’ on the website
Arguments keep on foldin’
But Spitblood keeps on trollin’
Trollin’, trollin’, trollin’ on the website
That’s all you got? You get your ass handed to you, then you resort to calling me a troll? Well duh. Look at my picture. Who let smart in?
And none of them signed.
Are you an unemployed fantasy writer? Fact is fact. You and others can’t handle them. So, you make up a bunch of new ones/ignore them/whatever.
What difference does it make if they signed? Harbaugh tipped his hand he wants someone else… both off seasons.
@Spitblood:
AJ Smith lowered the tender in the summer, and Vincent Jackson didn’t report until Week 10, which is when he would have reported had Smith not lowered the tender. AJ Smith’s brilliant negotiating tactic didn’t accomplish anything other than to poison the well between Jackson and the team. The team received virtually no production from Jackson in 2010 and wasn’t able to him to a long term deal. Jackson is now in Tampa Bay counting his millions, and the Chargers have nothing to show for Smith’s tactics.
That’s what one does in a tough negotiation? Achieve a result that doesn’t benefit the team?
Maybe if you worried more about research and coherent thought and less about putting your hands on people’s asses, you might do better at this.
I guess it boils down to two different philosophies. You’d hope for “some kind of productivity,” where as I wouldn’t overpay for a player. It’s that simple. I would have let Crabtree walk, where you would cave in a negotiation and hoped for “some kind of productivity.”
It’s two different philosophies. But I will say one thing – right now Crabtree is overpaid, and it’s because Eugene took McCloughan and Paraag out behind the woodshed. Heard that before?
@Spitblood:
I wouldn’t overpay for a player.
And the 49ers didn’t. They paid Crabtree an amount commensurate with his draft position.
I would have let Crabtree walk.
Given that you don’t understand rookie contract slotting, the time value of money or the basics of contract negotiations, it does not surprise me to read that you would do so.
I understand all of it better than you do. Because of Erickson, Nolan and Singletary, Jed York couldn’t say no, risking a fire storm of criticism. Crabtree goes back into the draft and that just weakens Jed and ticket sales… which were already at an all time low. Not to mention that Eugene Parker knew that Alex Smith sucked and he wasn’t going to make his client any better. That spells no contract incentives except the ones Crabtree could control – like working out. In the end, and like I’ve been writing all along, Eugene Parker had Jed York over a barrel, and Eugene knew it. That’s good representation. I honestly don’t know why more people don’t have Parker as their agent. Maybe it’s because he pisses teams off…. because he always wins.
Spit,
The Niners signed the contract with Crabs that was supposed to be signed all along. Criticizing them for not getting into a pissing match and forcing him to take less or go back into the draft is ridiculous.
No team has ever paid a player less than his draft slot determined he should. We have numerous critics pop off every year and say a team should take a stand, but they never do. The Niners in this case didn’t and shouldn’t have.
Think about it for a moment. If they took your stance and forced Crabtree to sit out the season or sign a below market deal, what is the benefit? If he caves and signs it, you have an angry player, not to mention an agent that represents a lot of players who now views you as a disingenuos negotiating partner. Pretty soon players around the league have a view of the Niners as cheap SOB’s that value saving a few bucks over the player.
The other scenario is, Crabs and his agent walk away and sit out the season and re-enter the draft. Not a great alternative, but if you push somebody into a corner that is how they react sometimes. In that case the Niners have just wasted a first round pick and gotten nothing in return.
So what I’m telling you is, the situation worked out the way the Niners wanted it to. They wanted Crabtree, but were not willing to break the slotting system to get him in on time. Ultimately he signed the deal the TEAM wanted – not what he was holding out for – and got an extra year tacked on at the end along with behavior incentives that protected them if he pulled a stunt like this again.
Your view that somehow Parker and Crabs got the better of this is shared by no one in the industry. At that time there was universal praise for the Niners from all corners for holding their ground and not letting a player dictate their business practices. The fact Crabs hasn’t lived up to the contract is moot. When you draft a player you are obligated to pay a certain amount sight unseen. It’s the price of doing business. What you don’t want to do is allow yourself to be bullied into paying more than the market dictates, and in this case the Niners didn’t and wound up getting what they wanted all along.
blackmon will have sam bradford throwing him the ball
I don’t think much of Bradford, either. Big XII offensive players are a trap most of the time.
Grant I dont know whats wrong with you or me today but I agree with you on most of your coments.
I have to agree with spit on this one. I think Bradford is very talented and will be pretty good if they let him grow in one offense. Last year was a disaster due to all the injuries Bradford and his Oline suffered.
Bradford is a stud. He had a very good rookie year and their team fell apart last season with injuries. If they surround him with talent I believe he will flourish.
BigP, Bradford was not a stud in 2010. His stats were very similar to what Smith would have put up had he played 16 games. His performance was overrated because he was a rookie.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13197/sam-bradford
Jack Hammer,
He performed very well considering he was a rookie and had very little talent around him. I believe he will be very good with talent around him. As far as comparing him to Smith, I don’t get it. As a rookie Bradford threw for more yards and TD’s then Smith ever has, and that was with Danny Amendola as his go to guy. That doesn’t mean he is a Pro-Bowler, but I don’t get the comparison. I’m assuming your talking about Smith’s rookie year when talking about playing all 16 games. If that is the case, you should go back and look at SMith’s rookie year stats.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/8416/alex-smith
Bradford completed a ton of short, easy passes his rookie year. His yards per attempt was a puny 5.95 – 30th in the league.
He did dink and dunk because that’s what they could do, but he also attempted 590 passes and had a 60% completion rate. I think he can be a very good QB in the NFL. He needs to be surrounded by some play makers.
Neither have had fantastic NFL careers but from what I’ve seen I would take Bradford over Smith any day. Opinions?
Yeah, I’d take Bradford over Smith.
Seeing Bradford play as a frosh at OU I thought he was going to be a NFL player. He’s a natural.
No. I would not grimey.
Bradford didn’t lead the Niners to the Title game last year. Why would I replace him with an injured QB who hasn’t won any playoff games at all and has started his career a lot like AS did?
You go with the one who brought you to the dance. Bradford didn’t even make it pat the front door.
So far Bradford is going the same route as Alex Smith, 3 coordinators in 3 years. If I had to pick between Bradford and Smith to win 1 game I would go with Smith.
Bradford is not an upgrade.
Big P,
Bradford had 18 TD’s, against 15 INT’s [just over 6 yds per pass], his first year and stunk last year. He had a workhorse RB in S. Jackson, too.
I realize he’s had a different OC each of his two years, and was hurt some last year, but I just don’t know how you can say he’s a stud with such cetainty. I would think the chances of him being a very good NFL QB is higher than him being a bust, but his success seems far from guaranteed.
Oh man, did I read that right? Did Grant say he’d rather have Smith than Bradford? Jesus. Bradford is accurate, Smith isn’t. Accuracy, accuracy, accuracy…. the number one most important quality of a qb. Accuracy. Smith isn’t accurate… Bradford is. Grant, you should really, really stop throwing these insane statements out there. Jesus.
No spit.
The #1 quality all QB’s need to have to be any good is good decision making. Translation – Don’t do something stupid with the ball. When AS had a good OC (only once in 6 years with Turner) he was showing this. Even with a HC who is likely out of his LB job (?) in Minnesota (yes a HC who sucks at his new job as a position coach. That is really bad) and an OC whose best times were, well, never, AS still improved.
With an actual good HC, AS took us to the title game his first year.
Wrong. When Harbaugh was asked that same question in his first press conference as the 49ers’ new head coach he said, “Accuracy, accuracy, accuracy.”
So, JH never said anything about not turning the ball over? Every HC slams this point more than any other. Don’t turn the ball over. Get turnovers on defense. You win the game. And that is not a story. It is fact. 8 of the top 10 teams in TO margin, made the playoffs. 3 of the top 4 TO margin teams got the bye week.
You can be as accurate as you want to be. If you throw 3 Int’s every game, you will likely lose every game. If you only hit on 50% of your passes (AS actually hit over 60%) that in no way prevents you from losing games. It doesn’t help to win games, but it won’t lose games for you.
Turnovers lost result in losing. Not In-completions. Chances are the other guy will make the stupid mistake, and you will win the game. AS under a ton of pressure, didn’t make those stupid mistakes. And, the Niners won.
Don’t muddy the water. We’re talking number most important attribute. Accuracy.
How do turnovers (also knows as decision making) muddy any water?
And the conversation started on Bradford. Not QB accuracy. So if you pull that card, we are both wrong.
And Turnovers lose/win games. If that is “muddying” your position, then your position is on muddy ground and you should consider moving it to sturdier ground. Like decision making is/has/will forever more be the most important attribute for a QB.
@DS:
When Spitblood says. “Don’t muddy the water,” he means don’t bring up facts that destroy my argument.
Anyway, I have figured him out. He’s just a troll. He posts ridiculous comments over and over trying to stir up fights and get attention.
Would you believe he’s been kicked off of other blogs? Surprising.
No Claude, what I mean is don’t try to change the subject. The subject was the single most important factor in qb play. I said accuracy. Harbaugh agrees. That’s a fact. Nice try, Claude.
@claude
I remember spitblood on this blog. He used to post here a lot. Like he is once again. I know his angle.
But if he really thinks turnovers muddy water, then he really doesn’t know anything about anything about football. I think he is just trying to get a rise out of people. Don’t fall for his trap. Just keep throwing facts down his throat until he chokes on them. Then he will either have to accept it, or get upset to the point of getting kicked off this blog again. Or just turn into another 23J.
1 of those 3 options would be a good outcome. 1 would be a non-good/non-bad outcome. The last would be a bad outcome.
I’ll let you figure out which is which.
Hey Spit
It was me who was talking with you about QB accuracy vs. decision making.
If you want to call out claude for something, feel free. I don’t think he is scared. But, at least get it straight as for whom you are arguing what.
And I can find a lot more quotes of JH talking about TO’s than you can find of accuracy.
DS9 – Our debate is simple: What’s the most important aspect of QB play? I say accuracy, you say decision making. I say Harbaugh sides with me and did so in his first press conference when asked this exact same question. Everyone can youtube the press conference and see I’m right. There’s nothing more the debate…
And then in every single post game conference what did JH emphasize. Turnovers. Not truning the ball over (ie decision making and protecting the ball) and getting Turnovers.
So, you have your 1 little itty bitty quote. I have a whole seasons worth of “Turnovers”. And, if you go to any other of the 31 HC, they say the same exact thing. Turnovers. Heck, it is tiring to hear it all the time.
Your 1 quote vs. all the season “TO’s” and the other 31 HC’s. You like Vegas and gambling I betcha. Play those odds.
Yeah, mid-season…. when he’s selling and supporting Smith. In the off season and when negotiating with Smith, that’s when Harbaugh tips his hand about how he really feels. Smith sucks. He isn’t accurate. Bradford is. Now go find me some stats. Lol.
TB has power over personnel.
Stats are for those who don’t understand the game, and want to look smart to cover up the fact they aren’t in the sport.
Stats don’t win games.
13-3 Tied 2nd best record in the NFL.
6TD/O TO in the playoffs. Only 1 QB was better. And if DG learns who is on his team, that QB does not win his 2nd Super Bowl while throwing 2 Int’s in the Title game.
Total of 6 Comeback wins out of 14 wins. No player can have a huge impact in a lobsided game/bad team/etc. But a good player can get you those tough close games to win them more than not. And thus, comeback wins are important to prove that the player (QB more than any other) can make that difference. AS did. 6 times.
6 comeback wins is not “luck”.
6 come from behind wins? Philly? Nope. Gore won that game because the D coordinator was using wide splits. Go watch. Smith made two plays – he hit Kendal Hunter on a roll out to the right, where Hunter did most of the work, and Smith hit Josh Morgan on a busted secondary play. Not a Smith come from behind win. That’s a Gore win. What about Detroit? Smith was god awful in that game. Frank Gore won that game as well… with Delanie Walker’s wham blocks. Oh, you’re referring to the slant pattern? I could have thrown that ball. Where were the other come from behind wins? And only one qb better? Well, actually there were two better, but that’s just last year. Next year there will be a lot more better qbs, considering Smith will be on the bench around week 6. And there he’ll stay for good…
Logical.
Very good point.
And JM didn’t beat Dallas in the 81 Title game. Nope. That was all DC, and the defense. After all, JM threw 3 Int’s in that game and was the reason the Niners were behind to begin with. And The Catch required DC to actually try to exert some personnel effort to catch it. Something which is unthinkable more than not with MC. How was that an accurate pass and AS’s were not?
You don’t mind what drabble comes out do you?
If you can make that throw, why aren’t you? Likely because you can’t. That throw had to be absolutely perfect. Both of them. The KH and DW one. Not to mention the VD one. If those 3 passes were not perfect, the Niners lose three more games. That is what “clutch” means. And are 11-6 instead of 14-4. They don’t even make the Title game. And you would have been happy with that outcome. Just more reason to dump AS. And that is what you care most about. Not winning, but dumping the QB who DID have 6 comeback wins in 14 victories. And before you go all “AS sucked in the Title game, why no comeback win then?” Keep in mind JM never had 2 comeback wins in the same playoffs as a Niner. Can’t expect it to happen if the Great one himself never did it.
And FG could only do what he did in the 4th quartter in Philly because of what AS did in the 3rd. Without that 3rd quarter, FG does not see the football more than 4 times in any meaningful way in the 4th quarter. Football is a team game. Please get your mind onto that fact before saying the biggest Niner comeback victory since like forever (Philly) didn’t involve AS playing a large role.
Also, take some memory pills. The whole idea of the WCO is to throw short passs to get high accuracy completed passes while the receiver picks up the yardage (ie KH on that pass). JM survived of his receivers actually having to play well, and didn’t block or catch his own passes.
@Spitblood:
Our debate is simple: What’s the most important aspect of QB play? I say accuracy, you say decision making. I say Harbaugh sides with me and did so in his first press conference …
I don’t know what Harbaugh said in his first press conference, but since you didn’t provide a link, I am inclined to believe that you are wrong about what he said just like you were wrong about nearly everything else yesterday.
In any case, here is a video of a QB coaching clinic that Harbaugh gave when he was at San Diego:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7-9kQJ1_sI
Guess what Harbaugh says is the most important thing in playing the QB position? I’ll give you a hint: it’s protecting the ball. He says it at 16:05 and again at 24:00. And at 24:45, Harbaugh says that turnover margin “is the number 1 statistic that dictates wins and losses.”
For those keeping score at home, that’s DS 1, Spitblood 0.
There’s nothing more [to] debate…
Well, at least you were right about one thing yesterday. Don’t you get tired of being so wrong so often about so many things? It’s like we can safely conclude that the correct position to take on any issue is the opposite of what you write.
It’s like you are the George Costanza of this blog.
Spit, DS, Claude,
You are both right. The two most important characteristics a QB can have are accuracy, and decision making (low turnovers). Harbaugh stated both at various times last year.
If a guy is incredibly accurate but throws a ton of interceptions that’s no bueno, and the same can be said for the guy who can’t hit the broad side of a barn and throws no interceptions.
As someone else already mentioned, Bill Walsh emphasized accuracy, because the more accurately the pass is the more likely the receiver is to get yac. This is one area that Smith can improve on in 2012. He hit Davis for some nice catch and runs, and Crabtree, and Morgan as well, but he needs to be a little more consistent with it.
Scorecard:
Spit 0 DS 0 (draw)
@Jack
JM said that BW told him that when you throw the ball, there are 3 possibilities, and two of them are bad. Hence, the Niners never, even with the best ever WR and QB, throw the ball 40 times a game on average.
It had nothing to do with “not trusting” JM. It had to do with the fact that passing the ball is inherently more risky than running it.
And, you can be inaccurate and still keep your team in the game. You can’t throw a lot of Int’s and expect the same thing. Turnovers have and always will determine the outcome of games. More so than QB rating, Average per rush/pass/completion, yards, etc.
What was most amazing about the Detroit game win was not the AS pass at the end. It was the fact the Niners lost the TO battle and won the game.
You can be inaccurate and as long as you don’t turn the ball over, and still be in the game at the end. Then, if you happen to be accurate then (“clutch”), you have a really good chance of winning it. Didn’t matter if you were inaccurate for most of the game. Look at a lot of JM’s comebacks. Most were games where he was not the most accurate QB one can believe. But, when it mattered most, he was. Hence my 4th quarter discussion with you earlier.
If a QB is accurate on the one pass he needs to be, that is all that matters. If a QB throws an Int when the pressure is on, that eliminates any accuracy bonus he might have had in that game.
By the way, AS was plenty accurate this past season. He was not bottom tier and the Niners didn’t lose the Title game because of AS being inaccurate. So any attempt to connect inaccuracy with AS is a farce. I saw all those other QB’s the Giants played miss on just as many, if not more passes which could have won the games for those teams.
And the debate was what did JH think is most important. And JH clearly thinks not turning the ball over is. Spit does not.
Re-evaluate your score card.
@Jack:
Hey, don’t mess with my scoreboard!
You understand, I hope, that you have credibility, so your assertion that Harbaugh lauded accuracy as one of the two most important characteristics a QB can have will be readily accepted as accurate. Spitblood, on the other hand, has no such credibility. Moreover, he went so far as to say that Harbaugh named accuracy as the single most important QB characteristic and thus that Harbaugh disagreed with DS.
That was the point of posting the link and of scoring the round for DS.
DS, That only works if your defense can stand on its head week in week out like the 49er D did almost all year. The reduction of turnovers by AS was a key component in the success of 2011, as was the ability of the D to create them.
As for which one Harbaugh sees as more important, he stated both at various times last year so, like I said, you are both right….
My apologies Sir Genius, as you were. Good call on the Costanza reference. Spit probably has a wallet the size of a phonebook too….
@Jack
Well, I can just as easily and just as correctly turn that around on you.
The defense isn’t as good as they were if the Niners and AS turn the ball over a lot more than they did last year. After all, the proof you are seeking is in the Title game. When the Giants had short fields off of TO’s (not AS fault), they scored 10 points. That is half of their points. So even with our great defense, they still succumbed to the TO. And if not for the TO, the Niners win that game handily. With or without AS and the Niners offense going 1 for 13 on 3rd down.
See Jack. It is a team game. If the offense (and thus AS) does not turn the ball over, the defense can be put in positions where they are in good shape (partly due to ST as well) and not put in bad situations. Then, it is up to the defense to get the ball back. And they did. All year long. And it worked. All year long. Until the title game. When the ST let them down by putting the defense in bad situations. Then it didn’t work. Great defense or not. TO’s win/lose games. Always and forever will be true.
DS, why are you arguing with me? I already agreed with you regarding how the TEAM benefited from both reducing and creating turnovers.
Regarding the defense having to stand on its head, if the QB is not accurate he probably isn’t getting many first downs, thus they aren’t scoring and the defense has to keep the team in the game so that hopefully the QB can finally get it together. And yes, reducing turnovers helps the defense by allowing them to not have to defend the short field.
I know there is another side of the coin where even if the QB is lighting it up, he still needs the defense to back him up and hold the lead, but last year there were many more examples of the former than the latter.
Wouldn’t it be great to have both in 2012? With the additional weopons they have given the offense hopefully that will be the result…
I’m not arguing with you Jack. I am asking you to use the same point of view to see my point as well. Besides, wasn’t AS in/near the top 10 in QB accuracy?
Drops play calling, and new scheme have as much if not larger roles in the Niners not taking advantage of the TO’ as much as anybody/anything (QB accuracy) else did.
And, yes. I am very hopeful about next year. I see no reason why our defense will suddenly suck. And I see our offense at the minimum, not getting worse. And where did that take us last year? To the Title game in the closest loss you can have (OT). If the offense is just a smidge better, Super Bowl is not an impossible goal.
And I expect the offense to get that smidge better with or without any added weapons. Just from reps alone. If the Niners did improve their weapons as many think, then this team will be nearly unstoppable. VD himself said he didn’t feel comfortable until near the end of last year. You could tell the difference. VD in regular season vs. VD in playoffs. Comfort level means everything. And reps get you comfortable.
But only as long as they don’t turn the ball over and get turnovers. If they turn the ball over, all those extra weapons mean diddly squat. Don’t turn the ball over. Throw the incompletion/take a sack instead. Because chances are our defense will force the other team to cave in, and then take advantage. It worked to the tune of 13-3 last year. If we have extra weapons, then great.
DS, AS was near the top 10, actually #11 in completion percentage.
http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=2011&type=Passing&range=NFL&rank=033
But that does not tell the whole story when it comes to how accurate the QB is because sometimes the receiver will make a great catch on an inaccurate pass. There is no stat that shows this breakdown.
The closest would be yards after catch, which is something that has been discussed a lot on this board and a big portion of that, not all of it of course, comes from the accuracy of the pass and the QB giving the receiver the ability to catch the ball in full stride and then go make a play. In that category the 49ers ranked #16, middle of the pack.
@jack
Please show me the Niner great catch highlight reel. If there was one, I didn’t see much of it. I remember one great MC catch. A couple of nice ones, and the the rest were “you’d better catch it” ones. Which he and the others didn’t quite often.
If you are talking about not covering the whole story, then you need to account for drops as well. Not just MC or the WR, but everybody. And I remember at least 2 drops in every game by our “playmakers” per game. Whether they be FG,. KH, VD, MC, BE, KW, etc. And since the Niners rarely passed more than 30 times last year, 2 -3 drops comes out to about 10% of all passes attempted (10% of 20 passes is 2). So, add that up to your accuracy numbers as well. For your own record, AS attempted 28 passes per game.
In addition to drops, AS had at least 3-5 throwaways per game. Ones which were clearly thrown out of bounds to avoid a sack because the receivers were not open. Add those 3-5 passes to the 2-3 drops per game. What does that come out to? Then subtract that number from the attempts made (maybe , and compare that number to the completed passing number. How inaccurate was AS then? I bet not much greater than any of the other top 10 QB’s in accuracy.
By my count I would subtract 2 -3 (drops) and 3-5 throwaways for a total of 23-20 actual passes. Then subtract your “great catches” from that if you like. AS by the way averaged about 17 passes which were caught all year long.
Then look at the numbers. Is 17 out of 20, or 17 out of 23 bad or inaccurate to you? Because to me, that is pretty freaking good. That would make about 3-6 passes a game where AS flat out missed. Of course we are not counting the times where a receiver didn’t run the correct route in that number as well. There is no way of knowing when that happens, but we know it does. So consider that. To be fair, I’d say 1 attempt per game as a reasonable number. Then AS accuracy becomes 17-19 or 17-22.
And for reference, JM’s receivers didn’t drop balls. And they made great catches on a routine basis. If you don’t agree, ask Joe yourself.
I remember watching just about any other NFL game, and seeing their receivers making catches that our receivers just don’t. That title game for one. Cruz, or Nicks or whomever had that one great catch I believe on the drive towards the end of the first half when the Giants scored. That was on 3rd down if I recall. If that was not caught, the Giants likely don’t score at all.
Please recall the number of times a Niners receiver made such a catch. Then compare it to the number of times other teams receivers made such a catch. QB matters not in the equation. Great catches are receiver dependent. Making the QB better than he is is receiver dependent. How many times Jack?
Another way of looking at it Jack is how many teams would pay the salary of our WR’s to get them over on their team? The Redskins vastly over paid for Morgan. How many teams would pay MC’s salary for MC of last year? How many teams wold pay AS’s salary tor AS of last year? Compare those two numbers.
Watch the GB/NO WR’s for a change. Or the Raiders for that matter. They save their QB far more than the Niners QB was saved by his WR’s. They may drop balls as well. But they also make an equally amount of great “make the QB look better than he is” balls as well. Note: I don’t accept that as acceptable. The ball is there, you catch it. Standards in SF are very high because of JR.
Or we could just call it like it is. AS was in the top 1/3 of QB’s in accuracy, and that is pretty good.
P.S. Here is a thought. Maybe Hasselbeck and Manning didn’t come here because of how bad the WR’s are. Plus how poorly the OL protected for much of last year (getting better at the exact same time AS did) had an effect on them wanting to sign elsewhere.
Another Alex Smith debate….great.
If you guys want a clear answer to the protecting the ball vs accuracy debate, just look at the Championship game against the Giants. Smith didn’t have a great day for accuracy 12-26, but didn’t turn the ball over and the Niners were in position to win the game because of it.
What ultimately cost them the game? TO’s. Every HC in this league preaches winning the TO battle. It is the #1 reason why a team wins or loses in a given week.
Harbaugh preaches it and so does every other HC in the league.
DS, Your dissertations are truly priceless. In doing further research on YAC, I found it interesting that many of those at the top of the league in this category are either a) RB’s or b) TE’s. Check it out yourself:
http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=2011&type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=231
If Roman can find a way to utilize Hunter more in the passing game that would help these numbers.
Look, I understand that there are drops and throwaways that every QB has to deal with, not just Smith. And as for him dealing with a drop rate of around 10% as you suggest, that is a very similar number to Eli Manning who just won the Super Bowl. Stop using that as an excuse, all QB’s deal with drops.
The offense, Smith included needs to pick up their game this year to come close to matching last years results. When the schedule comes out at 4pm today that much will be clear.
@rocket
1. What else did you expect on this blog?
2. I did point that out earlier today in a post to spitblood. Look at the Title game for reference.
@Jack
You are placing way too much emphasis on YAC. YAC is only one variable. And like everything else in football, you can’t isolate one variable from another (the lone exception being TO’s) and come to any sort of real conclusion. Hence, me not using stats. Except to prove that people shouldn’t.
I did mention the RB/TE in my post. FG had a horrible year as a receiver. He may have had the most drops out of anybody in the regular season. And I agree with you on Hunter. But I also remember Hunter dropping passes (very easy ones) which had he caught, he would be running forever. That would have added lots of YAC.
But your insistence on YAC hides the fact that 100 yards of YAC with nobody near you is the same YAC as 100 yards where you break multiple tackles/outrun defenders, etc. is what I have a problem with. And the stats don’t reveal that.
If you want to judge a player on YAC, you can’t really look at yards. Yards are but a small part of the equation. You MUST look at how often they made defenders miss tackles. How many yards after first contact did they get, as opposed to the defender falling down on his own accord and not having to do with any special move the receiver put on.
To me, 100 yards of YAC when the CB slipped on an all out blitz making the way to end zone easy is not the same as 100 yards of YAC when the receiver breaks 5 tackles, makes moves to avoid other would be tacklers and outruns the rest. So, the stats may say they are equal. But they are not. Not even remotely close in my book.
That is why I write words Jack. Words evaluate players. Numbers are for mathematicians. And I can assure you, nobody here including the writer of the blog is a mathematician. So, just stick to using words.
Thank you.
P.S. I don’t why you think that somebody spending 5 minutes to look at numbers in a link (what you did) is any more or less of a dissertations than having to spend those same 5 minutes reading words in a post. Please explain your view of time at the next local physicist convention in the Central Valley. They would be very interested to hear it.
@Jack
“Stop using that as an excuse, all QB’s deal with drops. ”
No. I won’t. In the dynasty days, it was an event if any receiver (RB/TE/WR) dropped a ball as a Niner. It simply didn’t happen.
Today, players are faster and stronger, and they can’t hold onto the damn thing. Maybe too many muscle cells between the skin and nerves. Whatever it is, receivers of today don’t come close to the catching ability of the Niners receivers in the dynasty years.
If you can’t block/catch, you were not playing. That was a rule Bill Walsh had. If JH had the same rule, there would be nobody to throw the ball too. Literally. The same goes for the rest of the NFL. Just because the quality of catching receivers has diminished does not mean my expectations should/have/will.
I like Bradford. Had a good first year with Shurmur, never got on the same page with McDaniels in year two. Spags for some unknown reason last year dumped both Robinson and Avery. Where were Bradford’s weapons last year? Kid played well his first year. His second year was a waste because of poor coaching and poor personnel decisions.
I’d trade Alex Smith for Sam Bradford in a heart beat.
I’d give ‘em Patrick Willis, too. LMAO.
Trading Patrick……..don’t even got there.
Alex Smith didn’t have any come from behind wins. It was a way to sell Smith, and you ate it up. Smith didn’t win one game…. but he sure as hell lost some big ones – namely the NFC Championship game. Kyle Williams? My ass. Smith threw for 6 yards to his receivers against the 27th ranked defense at home when he was sacked and pressured half as much as Eli Manning (a real qb). To win Super Bowls, you have to play great for three or four games in a row. Smith can’t do that. He held his own in the Saints game even though the Saints turned the ball over five times and Gregg Williams went man coverage when the world was calling for zone in the last drive. How admirable. Alex Smith never wins a Super Bowl as a starter in the NFL. Never. And don’t point to Dilfer or Brad Johnson. They’re better than Smith, and the day of the game manager winning Super Bowls is deader than Elvis because of the rule changes.
opps, meant for above.
@spit
“Smith threw for 6 yards to his receivers against the 27th ranked defense at home… ”
Well good for you for learning how to look at numbers. Here are some more for you.
VD had 4 TD’s in the playoffs. MC had 1, and none in the last 7 quarters. MC had almost as many drops (4) in the playoffs as he had catches (5). The RB’s all looked good when AS threw to them. The TE’s all looked good with AS throwing it to them. Only the WR’s looked crappy. And your conclusion is that the QB sucks? Huhhh. Interesting. Because all the other positions looked good with the same QB passing to them.
In that game that AS sucked in, he had 2 TD’s and 0 Int’s. The exact same as EM (and if not for DG, EM would have 2 Int’s and would have lost that game). And look at the other QB’s the Giants faced in the playoffs. Matt Ryan couldn’t even score a FG, much less a TD. AR stank so bad the refs tried to give him another chance, and another and another. But still, he stank. Then Tom Brady took “suckage” to new heights with his Super Bowl performance. TB completely chocked in that game. He stank all game long, then threw that stupid pass in the 4th quarter which the Giants intercepted. That is what we call a bad decision. And that is what lost them the game.
Among all the playoff QB’s who played the Giants, AS had by far the best day against that same Giants defense. And I bet you would want MR/AR/TB over AS right now. Face it, AS stepped it up in the playoffs like no other QB whom the Giants faced did. Not once did he succumb to the pressure like MR/AR/TB. Not once did he put his defense in a bad spot by throwing the stupid TB 4th quarter “What are you thinking?” pass. And AR missed on more than one big play opportunity with an inaccurate pass (see I thought of you as well) to a wide open WR (no defender on the screen for one of them) for an easy TD. As for Matt Ryan…Hahahahahaha.
But you won’t look at any of that. Why? Because it would force you to come to a different conclusion than the one you have convinced yourself of long before the Title game even started. And, that is what is really sad.
AS lead 6 comeback wins. Like or not. It is what happened.
Grant, Thanks again for some of your thoughts. I have to say, though, I’m hoping you’ll step up your game and become a legitimate writer, as your articles are no more incisive or in-depth as any of the comments written by fans and followers of blogs all over the internet. It’s nothing personal (as it seems to be with some people in these comments sections!), and I actually enjoy reading your clearly biased 49ers articles, as I’m a diehard 49ers fan. But it seems someone needs to tell you that off all the 49er beat writers, bloggers, and journalists in the Bay Area, your work is undeniably of the lowest quality. I know you can do better. I’m sure your dad’s position wasn’t the only reason you were hired. Do us all, including yourself, some good, and prove it! Le’t shave some real research and writing, not just some basic stats to support your daily mental whim. I’m sure you have some writing skill. You owe it to us fans to make use of it!
“…someone needs to tell you that off all the 49er beat writers….”
You spelled “of” wrong. Wow.
And, out of curiosity, what are your credentials to give such a blunt critique and expect it to hold any water here? Who would you like Grants’ articles try and live up to, exactly?
Wow, a misspelled word on a comment. I’ll go beat myself now. My credentials for distinguishing good writing from crap is that I read. You should try it. After a bit of reading, you start to realize true thought and effort from easy-to-write crap. I was also a history major at UC Berkeley as an undergrad, so I have experience with writing based on thorough research. Try out some other writers covering the team and you might see the difference. Or maybe not. It depends on your experience and credentials, which seem to based in emotional over-reaction.
I re-read my original post and decided I owe an apology to Grant for being too harsh. Also to AK49erfan. Other than being able to spell “of”, AngusinCanada is an idiot.
PFF,
This is a blog. A blog that is meant to stimulate conversation to be more succinct. Grant is not writing columns for the paper when he posts something here. He is providing a topic and inviting conversation on it. Learn the difference before you rant from the perch on your soap box.
@ PFF: Wow…. MY statement was an emotional over-reaction? Are you for real? Did you even read, let alone read AND comprehend, my comment? Because your response seems to be exactly what you so inaccurately described mine of being, an emotional over-reaction. My comment for you was a perfectly rational question that came from your (rudely put) statement about Grants writing (Grant not a legitimate writer? His writing is of the lowest quality?… all Your opinion) and I honestly expected a rational answer, maybe even leading into a civil discussion, in return. My mistake for expecting too much from you, “professor”.
“My credentials for distinguishing good writing from crap is that I read. You should try it.”
A great argument for your points, and so well stated!! How stupid you made me look with that “zinger”!! So right! Hopefully I will read more one day, if I can ever finally get past “See Spot Run”, right? Classy.
I wasn’t rudely claiming you don’t read at all, simply asked what credentials you had to make such “harsh” (your description of your words) criticisms of Grants’ article(s), and which 49ers writer you think he should aspire to be more like? What I didn’t do is come out and attack your intelligence… which is exactly what you tried to do (and honestly look all the more foolish for it) in your response to me.
Classy.
I was simply asking you to back up your opinion and, honestly, if you can’t do that calmly and rationally than even if you had all the education in the world it would simply have been all wasted on you.
You do understand there’s more than one degree in existence?? Here’s a thought, realize that you’re not the only “educated” person that reads and responds to Grants’ and other 49ers articles and plan on having an “educated” civilized adult conversation, rather than just post your opinions, that are sometimes (in my opinion) in a tone that comes off quite rudely, and as pretty much your idea of the simple facts… and then insult those who ask, quite rationally and calmly, what gives you cause to feel and think the way you do. You sound VERY arrogant and ignorant in your reply, and just so you don’t continue living life thinking you’re a genius, you’re all but assuredly not even the most educated person in OUR conversation. Go design and build nuclear power plants from the ground up and then come talk to me about being educated.
Those who can’t do teach.
Please get yourself off that high sparkly pedestal from which you look down and judge others. With a head that size, you’re destined to fall hard.
The bright side of us conversing like this is that I realize (fast learner) that your thoughts and comments are undeniable emotional ramblings that aren’t worth the 5 seconds it takes to read and discard them as the uninformative drivel they are.
Might as well change your name to “Skip”
@AK49erfan
“Those who can’t do teach.”
You had some good points till this one.
If not for teachers, you don’t have any “doers”.
Ha! Caught me on that one. Seems I had the unstoppable urge to try and twist the knife a little… guess my emotions did come out in a line. The rest is calm and rational though… mostly :)
Grant – I’m surprised we could not get a tweet or blog post out of you with the word “Shabazz” contained in it. That kid is going to tear up Pauley this year.
Mike in SF – I watched Shabazz dominate the McDonald’s All-American Game (MVP) a couple weeks ago. UCLA is back.
Damn, 10 more long days until NFL Draft.
Yep. As an Alum I’m pretty happy about it. I also really wanted Mora to replace Mooch when he got fired back in 2003. I’m glad to see him now coaching my “other” team. In the near term, Shabazz will be fun to watch even if he is one and done.
I’ve been talking about UCLA basketball nonstop with my buddies, but I didn’t think anyone cared over here. Kyle Anderson is going to tear it up, too.
Yes sir Grant! Niner/Bruin fan here.
Very few people care about UCLA basketball in Golden Bear / Cardinal country.
Not true Nick!
We enjoy laughing at UCLA and USC.
Well said MSClemons
OK, just completed JW’s youtube. Fast. Nice variety of routes. Crisp. Alters route on long passes with ease (many never learn this). Quick change of direction. Natural pass catcher. Explodes up field immediately after catch (did someone mention Victor Cruz?).
Few minuses. Seems to go down easy. His QB is certainly better then Hill’s.
I like him. JW seems like a slightly lighter Crabtree with a much better vertical attack. Could be immediate replacement for Williams… and eventually Crabtree if he never clicks down the road.
Fleener in the first, JW the second works for me.
Fleener, Wright, Vernon, Moss, Manningham, Crabtree, Hunter, Gore…. and the inevitable Alex Smith head explosion when all of them are out in patterns…. wait…. 8 plus Smith equals two guys blocking. … head explosion from all the options and no ability to process, or being crushed due to lack of protection. That’s a win / win. Maybe Diane Feinstein will put together some legislation requiring Harbaugh to only use two offensive linemen on passing downs. Call your senator. Actually, email her – I just did. https://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/e-mail-me
She’s a Smith hater, and she has my vote.
GO AWAY SPITBLOOD.
I just did but the new place has free WIFI. Who knew?
If you care about our future this is who you should actually vote for in the upcoming primary regardless of which party you’re registered in. Way better than Republicrat Feinstein.
http://www.feinlandforsenate.org/
Equal time Grant!
Can she draft legislation to remove Alex Smith? If she can, I’m all in.
I seriously doubt she would waste taxpayer money on anything sports/entertainment related. No ridiculous congressional hearings on “bountygate” type stuff.
But what if it’s for the good of humanity?
I figured you to be a liberal and to hide behind a womans skirt to boot. Your disertations have become boring. You have “sign it before you read it Pelosi” and you are in the Boxer era of life – syndrome, go figure, doesnt surprise me.
ummm…. well….. lol…… uh…… first off all…. you’re insane….. lol. And secondly, I don’t know where you got all of that. My reference to Feinstein was because she threatened a while ago to create legislation to keep the 49ers in SF. I don’t know if you remember that or not? I don’t know much about her politics, the other two ladies, but if they piss you off, I’m all for it. LMAO! Smith lover… lol.
I may be insane but I might be considered sane in this insane world. You brought up politics in this forum. It was a bad choice on your part I know your trying to piss people off but leave the f***ing politicans out of all this joking or not. Yes I do remember Feinstein trying to legislate her crap. Main reason for my post was that.
Perhaps one can gauge the players a team is targeting by looking at who they invite for a visit. Here is the list of some those who’ve visited so far (according to Matt Maiocco):
Wide receivers
Kendall Wright, Baylor, visit
Stephen Hill, Georgia Tech, visit
Rueben Randle, LSU, visit
A.J. Jenkins, Illinois, visit
Running backs
David Wilson, Virginia Tech, visit
Isaiah Pead, Cincinnati, visit
Robert Turbin, Utah State, visit
Travaris Cadet, Appalachian State, interview
Cornerbacks
Jeremy Lane, Northwestern State, visit
Jeremy Jones, Wayne State, private workout
http://www.csnbayarea.com/football-san-francisco-niners/niners-talk/49ers-2012-pre-draft-visit-tracker?blockID=688630&feedID=5936
By the way, the 49ers are also scheduled to hold a local pro day on Wednesday, April 18, in Santa Clara. This is open to prospects from local colleges.
Wayne State sounds like a prison.
http://fastandfuriousfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/prooffense2/85_Bill_Walsh_QB_Manual.pdf
Mr. Walsh believed that throwing a catchable football was key.
Hey, Alex throws catchable footballs.
Catchable by gophers or giraffes, anyway.
@Razoreater
I was looking for this video of Bill Walsh putting Phil Simms through a pre-draft workout, couldn’t find it. Maybe someone out there can. In the workout Coach stressed lightness on one’s feet and accuracy. He wasn’t concerned with the rocket arm. After a few snaps of Coach Walsh’s tutelage Simms bore an uncanny resemblance to Joe in his setup.
Agreed Razoreater.
Walsh was awed by Montana’ amazing footwork during early workouts leading up to the draft. Montana had the ability to move quickly in the pocket and had the accuracy when throwing on the run. Walsh envisioned a QB with these qualities to run his west coast.
No other QB ran the west coast as well as Montana. He was an artist at work. Steve Young did a great job, but he ran the west coast with sheer athleticism and determination.
It wouldn’t surprise me if JJ unseats CK for the backup QB position because his footwork is more refined and has the ability to throw on the run. We’ll see in TC if he can throw in the pocket and on the run with a level of accuracy.
Andrew from R… – Is this what you’re looking for? Simms comes on at 1:18 mark in video & discusses his two Walsh workouts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e33saSJlFY8
Thanks Crab, there is video of the workout itself.
I know Steve Smith has been very productive as a shorter receiver, but both Wrights make me nervous at 5’10″. Hill looks like a gamble to me…certainly gifted athlete, but a gamble. I like Randle…he just looks the part and has the production in a very competitive conference. I like Fleener too! Although the 49ers already have good TEs, Fleener just looks like he will be on the field for the first snap of the season.
brian quick is the guy niners should target for the wide receiver pick
Spit:
I have been saying for years that there must be pictures of Jed in a compromising situation,lol.
But you are wrong about the Crabtree holdout. The team stuck to their guns and the agent caved in. Crabs accepted the same contract he was offered in July .I dont blame Crabs,he was just following the advice of the expert he hired to get him a contract.
And yes, I agree with JH,accuracy is the most important thing .Whoever our long term QB is he better be an accurate QB or he can never really be a top QB.JH agrees and I think he will upgrade when he can. (Tried with Manning).
GO NINERS !
…And just for the record, I like Kaep and Tolzien and I like the idea of JJ.(they all need to prove themselves and so does Alex). But if JH starts Alex then I will believe none of those three have surpassed Alex quite yet and I will be fine with Alex starting.
I am a 49ers fan and want every player on the team to play great !!! So, Spit, get off the Alex hate !We all know he is nothing special, so you can stop ripping him in every post and wait until he does something good or bad on the field to comment on that new info.
Tim,
Just for the record… I don’t just rip on Alex. I rip on you, Grant, Grant’s picks, McCloughan, Claude Balls and Smith lovers with their endless Alexcuses. Oh, and Sarah Palin. I’m not sure who’s more devilish – Palin or Alex Smith. Both have brought extreme suffering to intellects everywhere.
@spit
If Tim is telling you to layoff the AS stuff, that should tell you something.
Grant, thanks for the youtube link on J.Wright. I was impressed with his skills. I do love the fact that he has been a consisitent producer throughout his college career. But having said that, his stature makes him a 3-4 rnd pick. His own teammate Joe Adams seems to be a carbon copy of JW but with the ability to be a dangerous Return Specialist. If I had to chose between the two, I would go with J.Adams because he gives me more options.
I still believe that our concept of separation is somewhat askewed. Because we think that separation only comes by means of speed. Not necessarily, T.O. was not the fastest of receivers but he used his physical strength to cause separation at the point of attack.
Receivers like Jeffery’, Sanu, and Dwight Jones have the same playing style as T.O. They will cause separation not so much with speed but their their physical presence. these guys could be available in the 2-4 rnds.
@AES
“I still believe that our concept of separation is somewhat askewed. ”
Who is ‘our concept’? Certainly don’t include me under ‘our’.
“Because we think that separation only comes by means of speed.” No ‘we’ don’t. I could care less how a WR gets open. Just do it. None of ours could last year. For those who watched JR play, it was a disgrace to see the Niner WR’s not getting separation (what we old timers call getting open) because that is what they are supposed to do. Add to that the drops they had, and it is doubly painful.
There’s a huge part to separation, and that’s the qb throwing receivers open. Bill Walsh used to always say he needed better players on defense because the offense knows where the ball is going. The qb and receiver should know where the ball is going, and just because a receiver and a db are even don’t mean that receiver can’t be leavin’ if the qb can place a ball where the receiver should be. Get some air under it. This also has a second effect – it reduces the number of sacks because a high arching ball in the air buys time. There were plenty of times last year when Crabtree or Morgan or Ginn were open or even… and the qb just didn’t anticipate the route, or pull the trigger. Steve Young said that was a problem with Alex Smith a few years ago, and despite the Harbaugh coaching connection, that just doesn’t look to be a skill Smith will ever acquire. I don’t buy that Smith is going to improve next year. If anything, he regresses. Smith not throwing receivers open, and Smith’s inability to throw on the run are my two biggest problems with Smith. A qb who can scramble, then run laterally to the line of scrimmage, gives his receivers more time to separate. Sure, if everything, all the time, is 2 step, 5 step, 7 step drop then either throw or tuck it and run (or throw the ball out of bounds), then sure, the receivers won’t be able to separate. The qb needs to create separation with either his feet or by putting some air underneath the pass, anticipating the route. This is why when it comes draft time, separation is always a huge term on 49er blogs. But guess what again? Ted Ginn and Vernon Davis are fast. So separation isn’t necessarily the issue. I don’t know if Josh Johnson can throw receivers open, but I’m damn certain he buy time with this feet and throw accurately on the run. That, alone, will give JJ the advantage over Smith at some point in the season. Can you imagine the chemistry JJ and Moss could have with a little coaching and patience? Moss setting up a db to get open deep, JJ creating time with his feet? Manningham also looks to be the perfect receiver to create space when JJ is on the run – but this time underneath. Forget all the Smith bashing, I’m honestly excited to see Josh Johnson in a 49er uniform. I think that kid will score some points. He has to look at the season like this is his best opportunity that he’s ever going to get in the NFL – and it is. Hope he’s working hard this off season.
@spitblood
Learn to use paragraphs.
And nice work how you switched he topic from it being completely WR to QB. You didn’t recall the times when JR said MC needs to get separation. And I consider JR an expert on WR. Not QB.
For QB, I consider JM/Troy Aikman/Rich Gannon/Terry Bradshaw experts. Know what all those guys have said? AS has something really good going on. Give him a few years with this system, and then judge him. Because 13-3 and that NO game comeback, that tells you a lot more than the previous 6 years under retard HC MS and Nolan.
With an average Defense and Special Teams, Alex Smith would struggle to post a .500 record. He is the beneficiary of an improved team, not it’s cause. He does not suck monkey balls as much as he did in 2005, but he is no more than a thoroughly mediocre guy and a placeholder until Harbaugh finds someone better. The Great Peyton Hunt was merely one demonstration of that fact. Whether it happens sometime this year, or next year, the lack of guaranteed money in his contract after the upcoming season clearly indicates that the 49ers’ long range plans lie elsewhere.
Ds9 – I do know how to use paragraphs effectively. Look at how much sh$%$#t I packed into that one. E–fficient. And to the rest of your response, I don’t know what to say because I don’t read hullabaloo (which explains my typos).
Monkey Balls…. he does still suck them. He likes them on a train. He likes them in a plane. He likes them while partaking in sweet mary jane. Monkey balls. Or, for the more classy, monkey testies.
@Grumpy
You name suits you.
“With an average Defense and Special Teams, Alex Smith would struggle to post a .500 record.”
Well, yeah. Most QB’s would struggle as well. Of course JM never once had a bad defense. And it was in the years that the defense was really great that he won Super Bowls. Think that means something?
Tell you something else. No QB with the WR’s we had last year, especially in the playoffs would look very good either. Yet AS still managed 6 TD’s, 0 Int’s with them. Just imagine if he had some decent WR who required 2-teaming. Go on. I know. It’s hard knowing you are completely wrong. But since you’re grumpy, you’ve been in this position more than once.
@spitblood
It’s called English. AES’s post was all about WR’s. As was mine. Yours turned it around on the QB. If you don’t know that, I can’t help you. But a good community college class in ESL likely can.
@spit
That ESL class comment is ringing more true now than it did just a minute ago when I wrote it.
For one thing, there is no “monkey balls”. There is a claude balls.
Secondly, claude didn’t post on this thread at all.
Maybe ESL class in addition to a basic reading class in whatever language you do speak. DS9 is not claude.
P.S. That insult has been done before. Come up with something new.
@DS:
I believe that Spitblood was referring to the monkey balls comment made by Grumpy Guy.
Either way claude, it is just wrong/in bad taste/whatever.
Monkey Balls taste bad? If you say so…
Reading comprehension. A problem you have spit.
Monkey brains is a delicacy in some regions.
Ds9 better not vacation there…
Going back the the separation thing, AES is absolutely right that there are a number of factors that contribute to creating separation. Straight line speed isn’t a good indicator. Strength plays its part for bigger bodied WRs, though strength alone isn’t usually enough either in the NFL.
What I like to see is the ability to get the DB flat or wrong footed (usually as a result of good route running and head/ body fakes), and to quickly throttle down/ up into and out of breaks. In my opinion this is what generally separates the good big bodied WRs from the also rans.
Other than separation, I look for the ability to track the ball through the air and high point passes (this is something that is hard to teach and is an indicator that they intuitively understand the physics of motion and trajectory – very important in my opinion), decent leaping ability, body control (smooth athletes that can contort/ twist their bodies yet stay under control), aggression (i.e., attack the ball in the air) and the strong hands to catch in a wide radius. Obviously not all WRs will have these attributes, but that is what I look for as it appears to correlate to what is successful for NFL WRs.
Alshon Jeffery has the second attribute, not the first.
Spitblood, agreed. That is another side to separation.
The great QB’ will often throw their WR’ open. Montana did this, Elway, Marino, SY, Dan Fouts, Drew Brees and the Manning brothers also fit this mould.
Young QB’ who seem to have a penchant today are Big Ben, C.Newton, and Andy Dalton. If Alex could add this important area to his repertoire he could be a perennial all-star.
But yes, separation should be viewed on a bigger spectrum.
But Smith lovers will never recognize this because Smith can do no wrong. Ask DS9.
Thinking of me all the time now.
Gee. Don’t know how to take that. After all, you think about Jed York and being naked and sheep. In whichever order. I am not sure.
can we all just shut up about AS at least untill the first exhibition game when he throws his first incompletion and the haters start calling for his job or his first TD pass and the lovers start calling for his enshrinement. you all repeat the same arguements over and over again and dont blame the “other guys” cause they started it. lets try no alex comments for 5 days. let the sane fans of this blog enjoy an alex vacation. thank you for letting me vent
I agree. Let’s talk about Michael Crabtree’s contract. LMAO!!!
@old coach
You are asking for too much. I’d settle for a thread that is not about AS to not bring up AS if others were so inclined.
Grant has milked the AS thing to death. No matter though. AS is always going to be the main topic of any blog subject after 1 day.
Okay – here’s a list of interesting topics that won’t require Alex Smith conversation – just for the old coach.
1.) Who’s the first coach from Harbaugh’s staff to leave?
2.) Is it a bad move to package up ALL picks for one player when the 49ers are this deep?
3.) Why does ds9 know what monkey balls taste like?
4.) If Grant keeps making comments like, “Fleener is the next Gonzo, or Bradford is better than Smith,” will Grant be able to keep his job much longer?
5.) What is the origin of Claude Balls’ name?
6.) What was Micheal Silver like when he was with the Press Dem? Grumpy? Congenial? Cocky?
7.) Is there one player on the 49ers we can’t see go down to injury in 2012? Basically, who’s the most important?
8.) Where are the Raiders headed? LA, the cellar? LA and the cellar?
9.) Who’s the first player on the team to be apart of a big scandal under Harbaugh?
10.) Will the Cowboys finish 3rd or 4th in their division?
Here are my answers:
1.) Vic Fangio leaves to work in porn.
2.) Absolutely not if you’re going after a franchise qb.
3.) He works at the zoo.
4.) Nope… not if he wants any kind of credibility later. Advertising dollars require credibility.
5.) Honestly, that’s a stumper. Go fish.
6.) Cocky.
7.) Konrad Rueland. Kid’s Johnny on the Spot with a water bottle.
8.) Mark Davis loses the team in Vegas playing heads up Texas Hold ‘Em with the poker brat, and Phil H moves the team to Vegas. Luxury boxes take on a whole. new. meaning.
9.) Aldon Smith
10.) 4th. The Cowboys are DS9′s main competition for monkey testy affection.
Spit
You are a disgusting individual.
@AES
Just a little while ago, I posted something not too dis-similar from old coach’s post and you said you love the AS talk. Now you seem to be inclining that you don’t.
Also, there is a trust factor that goes into throwing the WR open. Has MC or any other WR done anything to make you trust him? Keep in mind that VD has. And AS makes that throw to VD at the end of the NO game because of that trust. AS gives VD the chance to make plays for him because he has proven that he will. No WR on the Niners last year did. Please keep that in mind while going thru your evaluation of “Does AS really suck at throwing open receivers?” The fact that AS throws open VD quite often is not something to be ignored.
oldcoach,
I believe the overall consenses here would love NOT having Alex’ name come up. But when topics involve the importance of a WR who could separate, how could the QB (whether Alex or any other QB in the fold) not be included in the conversation? Don’t these two skill positions work off each other?
Many here could attempt to insulate Alex is much as possible, but throwing WR’ open has not been one of his strengths. Do you agree or disagree that this is another facet of separation?
QB’s and WR’s are like love and marriage, they go together like a horse and carriage, it is elementary.
Try, try, try to separate them, it’s an illusion, try, try, try and you will only come to this conclusion….
A divorce is coming.
unfortunately over 50% of marriages end in divorce in this country already so I guess it is inevitable that this one will too…
@jack
More to your point, most people (or a very good minority) don’t get married now either. They just live together and have kids. And don’t marry. So, if they split, there is no need for a divorce at all.
Please consider that in your stats of marriage/divorces in modern times.
Old Coach:
I posted the same thing several times over the last couple of weeks about at least waiting for Alex to get back on the football field and do something new before posting opinions about his play. I think everyone knows both sides of the arguement,since we have seen it over and over again in almost every thread,no matter what the topic is.
I believe the VAST majority of fans and so called experts agree with me on the Alex subject. Since my side is almost all anyone hears in the media it is a sure thing that fans on the other side of the arguement have heard my opinion quite often ,more often than they want as a matter of fact. I have heard the other side quite often from some fans ,who are admirably sticking by their guy through thick and thin ,so I don’t need to hear that over and over again either.
I like Alex and hope the best for him and hope that when he steps on the field again that I can watch him play and then will be able to come on these sites and praise him. HOPE is not always reality but I will TRY to wait until Alex actually does something new to comment on before I comment and then as usual I will TRY to be fair.
The QB is one of 53. He is a VERY important one indeed and having a good one sometimes makes all the difference. But although a popular topic in good times and especially in bad times,it is not the ONLY topic !
Ironic you posted the same thing. No other word for it. And then such detail moves the case from irony to absurd. No offense…
I don’t quite understand why it is ironic that many fans on these sites are tired of rehashing the same old details about Alex’s failures.
And no offense taken ,since you wrote nothing offensive. (for a change).
What’s ironic is that in the same comment in which you profess not to like the endless Alex Smith debate, you take provocative shots at Alex Smith and those who disagree with you. And then you do it again in the very next comment. Do you think that your passive-aggressive b/s is fooling anyone?
I’d tell you to go peddle your nonsense on Cam Inman’s blog, but I see that they don’t want you there either.
Take the hint, man. Take the f’ing hint.
@claude
Yes. It is interesting. Why the people who hate AS so much can’t get onto a topic and not discuss him.
I am speaking of Spit here. I do remember Tim writing something to that effect awhile ago, so I’ll defend him on this one. He is tired of it. As am I.
Undercenter also wrote a post where he listed a bunch of us who are tired of it as well. So there is more than 1. A LOT more than 1 person who is tiring of the AS debate.
This presents me with a real quandary. I must consult the Blogger’s Geneous, a”How to” Handbook (written by yours truly of course). Ah, here it is – chapter 3, article two, paragraph 4- “when confronted with an argument between to of your current foes, you have two choices – A. side with the stronger one, potentially forever vanquishing the weaker, or B.) side with the weaker and in an attempt to bring the stronger down, making yourself superior to all member who read your nonsense.” In this particular case, I like option B, and Tim appears to be the weaker one, without a grasp of literary terms and how they can be used against you. So I’m going to take down Claude Balls. Lol. Claude, Tim is a nice person. He is passionate about the 49ers. Who the heck are you…. crap, it’s lost on me. Tim blows. Lol. Get dictionary, punk!
And the irony continues… you get “a” dictionary, and I’ll get an editor. Copy?
You guys are funny ! I love my Niners and I appreciate most of the posters here and I learn from others opinions,so I will put up with some of the nonsense from the silly few. And the ones who go on the attack against fellow fans ,I will try to ignore them because it makes me feel rather superior to them anyway when they act the fool,like they do when on the attack..
Draft Juron Criner in either the 2nd or trade up in the 3rd. He will be 2nd or 3rd best receiver out of this draft behind Blackmon and maybe Floyd. Yes i believe he will be better than Jeffery, Wright (both of them), Randle, and Jones.
@Adam707:
The following link contains a description of a retired secondary player/coach’s take on Criner. If it wasn’t already the basis for your comment, you will like what he has to say:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1620389/juron-criner
Thanks for the link. I’ve done alot of research on Criner. His problem is that he lacks the top end speed and “seperation”. But at 6’4″ with a 39″ vert he’ll be a killer jump ball threat. He originally went to AZ to play both football and basketball, for those that dont know AZ has a great bball program so that explains the athleticism this guy has. He may be slow but he more than makes up for that in his catching and leaping ability. Plus i’ve read a few article about him having freakishly large hands, which is great for plucking the ball out of the air.
@Adam707:
What’s with the neurological scare mentioned in the “Intangibles” section? Did anything ever come of it?
@Claude
The neurological tests were attributed to “personal issues” by his coach. Criner may be slow, but has a good ability to track the ball in the air, is very athletic (like Adam mentioned), and he played well against top level competition at the Senior Bowl.
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=82337&draftyear=2012&genpos=wr
. He has the physical ability, but 49 catches in his College career? I’m not gambling a first round pick on such a huge question mark if I’m an NFL GM.
My prediction is that there will be a GM that takes him. But that GM will not be Baalke. I’m a fan, not an expert, so my opinion is just that, a fan’s opinion. What I want in drafting a WR is, in this order,
1) hands — they have to have to be able to catch the dang thing. Catch. The. Ball.
2) route running smarts — great route runners can make up for speed issues
3) heart — impossible to underrate. Work ethic, desire to win — these show up on each pass receiving opportunity, in traffic, in the EZ, across the middle — on Sunday. Heart and smarts can make up for speed and size issues.
4) volume of work, college experience, level of competition (stats) — what was the quality of competition they faced? Did they put up great numbers against stiff competition? Did they dominate inferior competition? If they did not play against quality competition but they have 1,2 and 3 above, then I’d consider them. Even if they played in “gimmick” offenses — if they have heart, physical skills (catch, catch, catch the ball), I’d consider them
5) size/speed — I put this last not because it is unimportant, but without 1,2,3 above it really kind of is. Sure some players can learn on the job in the NFL, but that is where late round picks or UDFA come in. If a player is gifted in 1,2 and 3 above, provided they have a QB that can get them the ball, they should do well.
In Hill’s case, it is a gamble that I would personally not make. Not enough body of work. I’m also leery of counting on much from Moss. If he does not perform well we have MM and MC and neither is a go-up-and-get-it-fighter. I want that in who they draft. My prediction is that they get an early rounder that fits that mold (bigger bodied with good hands) and a mid to later rounder that has the smaller speedier slot receiver mold.
you just described Alshon Jeffrey.
Jeffrey has been knocked for his desire and lack of work ethic. Didn’t he pretty much quit in their bowl game this year?
I guess you were talking about M. Sanu
Nick – You’ve been posting some good stuff… Respect.
I have no problem with a kid in college with some issues. That’s what college is for. Most first and second rounders shape up when they get to the pros… because of the opportunity. There’s no doubt in my mind… none, that Alshon Jeffrey would put forth 110% his entire career. Jim Harbaugh? Come on… Motivation with Jeffrey, for me, is a non issue. Now his initial burst off the line, that’s an issue. But it’s one I can deal with at 30. You aren’t going to find a first ballot HOFer at 30 without some issues he has to overcome.
@Spit
It’s hard to know, but his behavior in college may could raise a red flag for some teams.
Excellent post barleyfreak.
i understand the relevancy of AS when discussing WR’s its the constant repeating of the same opinions the same criticism the same love and hate it becomes redundant redundancy. regardless of who throws them the ball you have to create space the great QB’s can throw a reciever open but the good/great recievers can get open on their own. we will see if alex improves next season, next season untill then its all meaningless gibberish
I have yet to see someone do something relevant or meaningful on a blog. Honestly. Nobody that I’ve ever witnessed has solved a problem, cured something, created something or made any money – that’s I’ve seen. My point? It’s all gibberish. This is entertainment. To what depth of gibberishness you decide to go, that’s your choice. Me, personally, I’ve never seen a low road that wasn’t faster or more enticing. The high road is always a steep climb, requires exercise and gets me there winded and behind everyone else (or so I imagine – haven’t tried it). I just don’t understand why people go that way. They should call it, “The slow road and the fast road,” duh. But yeah, Smith is tired, and it’s draft season.
agreed just dont continually repeat yourself
Don’t tell me what to do…..
Alex Smith is one of the worst qbs to ever play the game. He can’t run. He can’t jump. He can’t throw. He’s left handed and blind. He was terrible in the NFC Championship game and there will a qb controversy with JJ this summer.
Alex Smith is one of the worst qbs to ever play the game. He can’t run. He can’t jump. He can’t throw. He’s left handed and blind. He was terrible in the NFC Championship game and there will a qb controversy with JJ this summer.
The 49ers’ MVP – the guy they can least afford to lose – is Smith.
Justin Smith. Of course. Best D-lineman in the NFL last year.
the dates for the 9ers schedule come out today how many thur/sun/mon night games are going to be on the schedule? any predictions
I think the NFL sells the snot outta Jim Harbaugh…. we’re goin’ prime time boys, and DS9.
@old coach: 4
@New Orleans (Bounty Wars, Revenge of Crabtree’s ACL!)
vs. Detroit (The Handshake Part II)
@ New York Jets (Tebow vs. the Godless Homo Lovers, or NY + SF = Ratings)
vs. Arizona (Ehh, it’s a Thursday Night Tradition?)
Or that last one could be:
vs. Seattle (What’s Your Deal or No Deal? Weekend Edition)
I’m guessing they get at minimum 4 prime time games and maybe even 5. That seems to be the going rate for teams that get to a Conference Championship the season before. Not to mention the Niners play some real heavyweights this season that will generate a lot of interest nationally.
Old Coach,
I would say 5 games. 3 on MNF, and 2 on Sunday/Thursday night.
Old Coach, What do I win?
Here’s a name that isn’t on anybody’s list but should be; Thomas Mayo.
Small school kid that isn’t getting any press but should be. Could be a true late round diamond IMO.
I dont normally like this website but they’ve got the best write up on him that I can find: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1102684-2012-nfl-draft-university-of-california-at-pennsylvania-wr-thomas-mayo
@AES
“Just a little while ago, I posted something not too dis-similar from old coach’s post and you said you love the AS talk. Now you seem to be inclining that you don’t.”
No contradiction here DS. I do enjoy a good Alex convo until it get’s nasty and out of control. Alex is a polarizing figure. There’s no getting around that fact. There are no numbers or stats that bear that out, but it’s a fact nonetheless.. Well, I take that back, the numbers are provided by this very blog-site.
My reply was to old coach regarding keeping our mouths shut about Alex. I never disparaged Alex, I merely stated that you can not really have a lenthy convo regarding the WR position before bringing up the QB because they are intertwened.
Thanks for clearing that up AES.
*intertwined*
@spitblood no offense i wasnt telling you what to do i was speaking in general
I’m just messin’ around. Never any offense taken.
yeah i’m a dumb ass i did’nt read your entire post
Pull it together, dude. This ain’t the minor leagues.
Chris Owusu (WR, Stanford) is getting overlooked because of injuries and durability concerns. But I think this guy can be very effective under JH and Roman. He’s fast and his speed translate well onto the field, is explosive, runs sharp routes, and has good hands. On top of this, he plays special teams (we need a backup for Ginn) and is familiar with the JH offense.
Here’s a scouting report on Owusu:
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=83915&draftyear=2012&genpos=WR
Probably could get him as F/A immediately after draft.
@Razoreater
He may get draft in the mid to late rounds. The Niners could get good value if they get him in such a scenario.
I could see taking him late 5th Round but due to concussion conerns I do not think he goes higher than that.
Anyone with ESPN Insider should check out KC Joyner’s article today. I don’t think I’m allowed to post Insider content from another site here so I’ll just post a few blurbs in my own words:
Fleener will be the top value pick in the draft if he goes at the end of the first round as has been speculated. Based on his size and production he should be an early first round selection.
Randle is second on this list and grades out high in all categories of WR production and athleticism.
Hill is #4 based on size speed ratio and success when targeted on deep throws.
Jarius Wright is #7 for a lot of the reasons Grant stated.
@Rocket
Thanks for sharing that info. Out of curiosity, where do they rank Sanu (WR, Rutgers), Steeter (WR, Miami), and Criner (WR, AZ)?
He only did a top 5 value picks, with another 4 given honorable mention Nick. The other guys on it were: LaMichael James, Brandon Boykin, Brandon Weeden, and two names I haven’t heard much of that he singles out for the honorable mention list.
Tauren Poole RB Tennessee
Markelle Martin S Oklahoma State
Martin arguably was the best FS in the draft, but with a reputation for not always playing smart. He was projected to go in the 2nd or 3rd round. Unfortunately, he hurt his knee prior to the combine and had to have surgery. It sounds like the knee injury is serious, which makes me think he won’t be able to play this year. There is not a lot of good information on his medical status.
Depending upon how he checks out medically, it might not be a horrible idea to spend a 4th or 5th on him, put him on IR, and let him rehab for a year as possible insurance in case 49ers cannot sign Goldson to a long-term deal. Or, if the 49ers sign Goldson long-term, maybe they could move him to SS in 2013 or 2014, and let Martin take over at FS?
Wow, barely informed speculation is fun.
… and of course, I was wrong.
Martin recovered from surgery for a torn meniscus in time to hold his own personal pro day today:
http://newsok.com/nfl-draft-osus-markelle-martin-shows-off-at-his-pro-day/article/3667228
It’s just stupid to say that ted Ginn Jr. doesn’t have good hands, hell I’ll even say he has great hands because in order to do what he does best ONE has to have good hands! The problem with Ted Ginn Jr. is that he doesn’t like CONTACT! He doesn’t really like to get hit!
I’m sure thankful he came back home to where he belongs. We need him and I think he improved as a receiver last year.
He’s just a slight framed dude. But I agree with you. Ted Ginn is underrated and under appreciated.
Ginn does, however, do a mighty fine Stevie Wonder imitation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXH4sOKsyAA
Where’s my ball, Dude?….
On this special day of days, I will not bring the fire at you for dumping on my boy, Ted Ginn. I’m gonna let you get away with that one… for now. Now tomorrow, don’t try. Me ‘n Teddy are tight. And if you watch that game, that ball, while certainly catchable, was a duck. Has the man who’s name shall not be spoken ever, ever thrown a spiral? They all wobble out of his hand. Maybe Teddy just assumed with that much friction the ball could never travel fifty yards.
I think we are going to see another whole level of WR play this year. Problem is, that does not guarantee the ball will be where it needs to be and when. I will say this: if it isn’t, Randy Moss will go feral and rabid by week six. That gets filed under “Damned Ugly but Morbidly Entertaining”.
I think that’s why Harbaugh will have a quick hook. JJ and Kaep on the sidelines, ready. I agree – our receivers are going to be good this year. The “Damn Ugly but Morbidly Entertaining” file left with Singletary. If you “check the tape,” you’ll see him walk out of the building with it week 16….
On NFL.Com go and check out Lombardis article on the draft philosphy of the Master; Bill Walsh. One of the best coaches and executives in the history of the NFL and he was ours.
Walsh’s approach was very different than many NFL and draft types; probably because he was smarter than most of them. He focused on if the player could improve the team and not the round he was going to go in. He also did not like one year wonders much. He liked to see the player have a body of work rather than “project” how he could play.
If Janoris Jenkins is still on the board I would suggest the 49ers take him over Coby Fleener.
To replace Tarell Brown?
I hope not. From everything I’ve read about him it doesn’t sound like he’s got the right mental attitude to dedicate himself to the NFL. He just wants to smoke weed. Dope is to Jenkins as fishing is to Rashaun Woods.
Its a passing league and the kid has top 15 talent. Competition is good. After Rogers, Brown, Culliver we have nobody better than Jenkins. Too good a value/need to pass on for Fleener. I think with the strength of the 49er lockeroom his “mental attitude” would not be an issue.
Great argument. Still, you’d have a first round pick who probably wouldn’t play much in 2012.
He’s got the talent, but does he have the will? Talent alone won’t cut it in the NFL. I’d rather have 53 guys that have good talent and love the game than 53 guys with great talent but no heart or dedication to their craft. I reckon 9 times out of 10 (if not more), good talent + will beats great talent + no dedication.
Just watched this thing on ESPN on Fleener, ok Grant I now agree with you, do what you got to do to get this guy. I always liked him but I didnt agree with you on what you wanted to do to get him. I now say after watching this, the Niners or whoever drafts him are going to have the best receiver in the draft.
Week 1 @ Green Bay, Week 6 home vs NYG… Better have our big boy underwear on, tough early schedule….
I betcha, provided we don’t have injuries heading into week one, that we kick the sh#%&t outta Green Bay. I bet we go into Green Bay, with both teams pissed they lost to the Giants in the playoffs, and the 49ers hand them their keesters, delivering something that hurts that organization deep, deep down… in their bones. Making players and coaches, even fans, question if their Lombardi Trophy was really earned, or now just a fluke – handed out to primadonnas and girly men who buy the hype and not think putting in the necessary work to create the toughness is important anymore. I bet Willis, Aldon, Ray, Justin and Ahmad Brooks bring fear into the heart of Aaron Rogers the likes of which he hasn’t yet known. Not from Tuck and Pierre Paul, even. One good hit early – like in the Saints’ game. Greg Jennings. POP! Jordy Nelson. WHAM!!!! Jermicheal Finley. Don’t get up. I bet the 49ers go into Lambeau and do exactly what they did to the Saints – smash ‘em early and take the fight outta them. The Saints have warriors in Sproles and Graham. I don’t think the Packer have warriors. I think they’re happy catchin’ touchdowns and doin’ the Lambeau Leap, but when it comes to doing the tough stuff… the gut checks or the tough yards? I think they’re a soft team, and I don’t see a leader like Patrick Willis or Justin Smith on that team to toughen them up. I think the 49ers punish the Packers week one.
From your mouth to God’s ears.
No, that’s not quite right. How about:
From your PC to God’s inbox.
I love how I’ve turned you into pithy miscreant in two days.
Stick that in your inbox.
My comments have always been pithy, and my miscreant tendencies have nothing to do with you. You shouldn’t claim credit for accomplishments that are not yours.
That said, I am letting it go in deference to your obvious disdain for TIM. Not all enemies of my enemies are my friends, but anyone who recognizes TIM’s wretchedness cannot be all bad.
Again spit.
You need to learn about paragraph spacing. It is hard to read what dribble you are writing and all you out correctly on it.
Need spaces spit. Need spaces. Have you ever tried to read your posts at all?
Why the hell would I read that nonsense?
I actually don’t read it spit. If I do anything, I just notice little bits and pieces and comment on those.
My higher brain functions would decrease if I actually sat down and read every word you wrote. Can’t afford to do that at my age.
Claude.. you lost me at enemies with friends of your brother’s uncle… but the good news is I picked you back up again at “Tim’s wretchedness.” So yeah, about that. He’s genuinely a nice guy. And that, in the interest of personal growth, is where I’ll leave this….
Oh, and erections don’t count as personal growth, just FYI.
Ds9 – then why all the complaints?
You can afford to complain but not read me?
Then complain about my form without reading content?
You just wrote, “Have you tried to read your own writing?” Implying you do and it’s maddening.
Something’s rotten in Denmark.
I think you anxiously await every morsel of geneous I bless you with.
Why all the references to naked guys and erections? This is a football blog. Not a porn/biology blog spit.
If naked guys are your thing, that is fine. But no need to talk about it on a Niner blog.
Hey we have paragraphs!
Like I said, I don’t really read the whole thing. But words like “erection” kind of get some attention.
I am the master of skipping posts here. I have no problem doing it to you. I just ask you do the same.
Claude:
To say you have enemies on a football blog is truely pathetic. Just because you don’t agree with my opinions on some issues you are at war ??? How sad for you !
…The sad thing is that Spit knows he is over the top and he loves the fact that he is ruffling feathers of a few fans who don’t get the humor. Claude is just hateful and would rather rant about how he is lost in his hate for other fans instead of talk football like an adult. Sad !
I agree with every other poster on this site at times and dissagree with everyone at times,but I hate nobody. (except maybe the Cowpies,as an organization,lol).
Claude, why waste your time with this clown?
Tim, there is no rhyme or reason with you comments. Sometimes you’re tolerable. But you are a true 9er fan so I respect you for that.
I hope you are not talking about me Hof. I have always had respect for you and DS etc. Although we differ on a few topics I don’t lose respect for anyone because they disagree with me on a few topics,that would be childish.
Tim, not you this time. lol
@TIM:
The part about “enemies of my enemies” was a reference to “The enemy of my enemy is my friend,” which is an old Arabic (and Chinese) proverb that suggests that two people/tribes/nations who otherwise have nothing in common can work cooperatively to defeat a third party whom they both oppose.
In other words, because Spitblood and I both think you are a tool, we can put aside any differences we may have to focus on the common goal of ridding the blog of the scourge that is you.
The part about you being wretched is pretty self-explanatory.
Just because you don’t agree with my opinions on some issues you are at war ???
See, TIM, that’s the problem. I have explained repeatedly that my problem with you has nothing to do with the content of your opinions and everything to do with the phony, cowardly way in which you present them:
“Golly-gee, I really want Alex Smith to succeed because I really really like him, but, as every expert agrees, he’s just not that good, so what am I gonna do? Shucks.”
But, instead of acknowledging those unambiguous, easy-to-understand explanations, you ignore them and keep pretending that it is all about a mere difference of opinion.
That is why I have no respect for you.
Claude:
I know the saying very well. But to even have enemies on a football site like this is rather pathetic. And to keep calling childish names and calling other human being ‘wretched”when you don’t know them at all is also childish. How about you just post an opossing opinion if you have a valid opinion and leave the name calling and hate to the political sites. This is supposed to be a fun place to come and talk about OUR team,not a place to take out your built up hatred towards other human beings without needing to face the people you are slandering. I hope you have a good evening Claude and look in the mirror and reconsider how silly you sound when you display your inner hatred on a sports site.Get a good nights sleep and maybe you will feel better in the morning.
…And Claude:
I know it is hard for a hatefull person like you to understand BUT I really do like alex and hope the best for him and as I have written many time,I hope he goes to the Pro Bowl every year for the next 10 years and is the MVP of the SB every year too !
If that kind of thinking is foreign to you then maybe,just maybe you should reconsider your value system and try to understand those of us who are not consumed in hate for others. ?
Tim , why is Claude hateful? Just because he supports the 9ers starting QB??! You need to be more balanced Tim. Tell me how great the WRs were last year especially the practice squad guys that started the championship gam. Tim, you are so biased!
…but of course IF Alex doesn’t get better and get to the level I hope for him (as I suspect he never will,but who knows),then I will post my opinion on his play and if it was not very good then you will call me some more childish names and hate on me some more. for posting my opinion,just because it doesn’t line up with yours. I guess you hate just about every commentator in America then,since they almost to a man agree with almost everything I write about Alex ? Do you write all of them too to call them childish names and to revile them ? LOL
” every commentator in America then,since they almost to a man agree with almost everything I write about Alex”
Easily said than done Tim. Name them or link who said it. NOW! I’m tired of you stating such things and then running off to your next blog! Who said it??! Link or name the person! Who???!!
…and Hof:
It is hard for a hateful person to understand when a non-hateful person has a critism of someone. The hateful person thinks that everyone else is hateful like him and can’t understand how someone could possibly critisize a player without hating that player.
I try to be fair and if Alex or any player does well I say so,if they stick consistently I say so(of course just MHO). I am not hating on that player,I am just talking about the play on the field. A liar thinks everyone is telling lies all the time,a theif thinks everybody steals and sopmeone with hate in their hearts for his fellow man thinks everyone is like them too. Thank God it’s not true ! But Claude seems to think it is true . He projects his feeling onto others(me) .
I am not a shrink,I just play one on the internet,lol.
Have a good night fellow fans ,God Bless you !
Tim, then call the receiving crew as they were last year…mediocre and not all on the QB. The WR group was the issue with the offense and that is why it was the focus in FA and will be the focus by draft CF in a couple of weeks. Right Tim??!
@TIM:
Thanks for proving my point.
Hof:
Claude is very hateful because he doesn’t want to have a conversation,which I am more then willing to do. He just wants to attack and call names and pretend that because he doesn’t like me for some childish reason he can go on the attack with no consequences. He has been warned by Grant but he never learns. I hope he doesn’t get banned for attacking vothers instead of talking football,since I read and respect his FOOTBALL opinions. If he would just lay ofgf the childish remarks about others and stick to writing football opinions . ( I am also guilty of making this personal because of the need to defend myself BUT I wish we could stick to football and if he or anyone else doesn’t like another fan for any reason,KEEP IT TO YOURSELF and just talk football in an adult manor !).
Tim, I wouldn’t say Claude is different than the extreme factions on the other side. Claude usually backs his comments by fact and not hyperbole like most AS bashers. You are biased Tim. You need to understand that AS didn’t have good receivers and that is why WRs (receivers) were the focus in FA and will be the focus in the draft with hopefully CF. We’ll know shortly. Get it Tim? AS wasn’t the main issue last year it was the WRs!
He has been warned by Grant but he never learns.
When did Grant ever issue a warning to me? Proof or GTFO.
Looking like a week one match up at Green Bay. This will be a great test to see where our team will be heading into the 2012 season
That’s one thing that Bay Area writers aren’t writing about – This 49er team now has leaders on like it used to. Patrick, Dashon, Justin, Donte, Carlos are legit leaders. Bowman, Ray and Terrell are leaders in training.
On the offensive side of the ball, Moss will be a leader, bringing instant credibility. I’ve never looked at Frank as much of a leader or Joe Staley, but Vernon now has some chops behind his talk, finally. I’ve been critical of Vernon, but I’d follow him …. now.
Leadership – it’s a big part of why the 49ers were great in the 80′s and 90′s, and it’s back in SF once again.
Bobby Wagner out of Utah State OLB is an intriguing prospect in Round 2.
I believe he’s been in for a visit, along with Bruce Irvin. Wagner is an intersting one as pass rush isn’t his strong suit. He’s on the short/ small side for a 3-4 OLB. He’s a tackling machine that is also decent in coverage. He may actually project more as an ILB in a 3-4.
So far the players they’ve had in that are generally believed to be 2nd rounders have been RBs and LBs… smoke screens or an indicator of what Baalke is thinking?
@Razor
Good call. Wagner could be a steal in the 2nd and we need depth at OLB. Wagner played very well at the Senior Bowl (seven tackles, including one for a loss, and an interception) and an impressive pro day workout. Voted a team captain in 2010-11, this guy is a leader and a solid LB.
Here are some notable unsigned free agents that could help the team:
OL Kareem McKenzie – can play either right tackle or right guard.
RB Cedric Benson – posted his third straight 1,000-yard rushing season last year.
DE Andre Carter – had 10 sacks in 14 games last year before being injured.
I think Andre Carter’s career will most likely be done. Coming off a season ending from a torn Quad.
You are right Scooter, they have both been in. Irvin is a Aldon Smith clone, but he played on the other side. He is a good athletes and should transitions well to OLB…
I’ve been high on Bruce Irvin, but his stock has been hurt due to some character concerns (high school drop out and recent arrest). Nonetheless, he was very productive in W. Virginia and posted impressive numbers at the combine.
49ers schedule is here:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d82861816/article/san-francisco-49ers-2012-nfl-schedule-analysis
Thanks.
I kind of liked how they had the schedule last year instead. Play the divisional games in the last half of the year. That way, it ensures that no division is really won or lost very early on. And it keeps the suspense up thru the whole season.
4 Prime Time games this year. Week 2 sunday night vs DET. Week 7 Thursday night vs SEA. Week 11 Monday vs CHI. And week 15 sunday @ NE
Check that 5 prime time games. Week 8 monday @ Arizona too
The 49ers will go into the 2012 season with a huge chip on their shoulders thanks to the painful loss against the Giants. Woe, to each team that has to face them this season.
The 49ers to a man know that they should have beat the Giants and crushed the Patriots in the Superbowl. Even if we are slightly better with our redzone and 3rd effeciency than last year, will we give defenses nightmares.
For the first time in about 10 years we have a ready-built team with all the pieces to make a strong run at the Superbowl. A couple of pieces in the draft next week could give us the nucleus to contend for the next 5 years.
Wow, is it September Yet?!!
AES, this schedule is only difficult to the opponents the 9ers face. Looking forward to an awesome year!
Mock 3.0
Rd 1 – Coby Fleener – TE Stanford
Rd 2 – Bruce Irvin – OLB West Virginia
Rd 3 – Jared Crick – DE Nebraska
Rd 4 – Joe Adams – WR Arkansas
Rd 5 – Akiem Hicks – DT Regina
Rd 6 – Trade for 2013 draft pick
Rd 7 – Sean Richardson – S Vanderbilt