This is the final quintile of the Niners 25 best players. To read the previous quintile, click here.
21. Bruce Miller, FB – a Pro Bowl alternate in 2011, his rookie season. A very good blocker and a surprisingly good receiver for a fullback.
22. C.J. Spillman, ST – Led the team with 19 special teams tackles in 2011 (tied for fourth most in the NFL). Perhaps the best gunner on punt coverage in the NFL. Very fast and very good at tackling in the open field, Spillman makes it nearly impossible for Andy Lee to outkick his coverage.
23. Jonathan Goodwin, C – A Pro Bowl alternate last season, his first season as a Niner. Really struggled in pass protection the first half of the year. Stepped up down the stretch and in the playoffs once he’d gotten more comfortable in the offense.
24. Alex Smith, QB – Posted the best interception percentage in the NFL last season – 1.1. Played a brilliant game against the Saints in the playoffs. Finished about seventh in line for an NFC Pro Bowl appearance behind Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Eli Manning, Cam Newton, Tony Romo and Matt Ryan. Threw for just 17 touchdown passes. Could jump a few quintiles next season if he throws more than 25 TDs and maintains a low interception percentage, or wins the Super Bowl.
25. Michael Crabtree, WR – The Niners leading receiver in the 2011 regular season, Crabtree caught just five passes for 28 yards in the playoffs. Bothered by an injured foot his first three seasons, he seems bothered no more. He looked faster than ever in minicamp. Poised to distinguish himself next season as more than just a middle-of-the-road receiver.
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Your rankings are a joke. The fact that Smith and Crabtree are ranked 24 and 25 is beyond ridiculous.
Totally agree, I will now be deleting the bookmark for this site and never visiting again. I have had enough of your immature observations that lack any kind of logic or reasoning. Goodbye everyone else, I will now be focusing on the Matt’s for my insights. Niners Forever
WOW! I misread the earlier article, I thought you had Alex around 15, 16, but to put him that low; it truly does come across as a “hater”. I hate that term but I have a hard time believing you put him that low. It seems safe to say you do this to instigate confrontation, which you do at will, but if this is truly how you believe these rankings are then it’s quite disturbing. I have my issues with our QB like the next guy but I’d back him up because he’s our leader, granted, he has his downside but to trash him like a benchwarmer, that’s unacceptable. You’ll continue to write and the same 6 people will blog but as a Niners fan it’s hard to swallow your line of antagonistic pessimism. I know I’m a single reader and my opinion means little but you seem talented, I’d love to see it with some depth and objectiveness. Still wish to follow your articles but your making it difficult at best.
These rankings are grants opinions. You’re free to create your own rankings. Just because his assessment doesn’t match yours doesn’t make it ridiculous.
Oops, I forgot. You are a Smither. Never mind.
….and just because your a hater, does not mean we need your peanut gallery commentary.
@Onenine / FDM
Nice try. Which one are you today? OneNiner or FDM. Just pick one name and stick with it. What a loser.
These rankings are about right, maybe AS should of been 27th would of been more accurate. Alex one hit wonder Smith, played 1/2 of a great game against the Saints but was horrific against the Giants. Not all of his fault but he can’t make nothing out of something, the stars need to be aligned perfectly. Sorry AS lovers, that your man love was almost a goner during free agency. He was planned B. PM was planned A.
Later CdnNiner. One less Alex apologist around.
Amen Neal!! Preach it!! The truth shall set you free!!
I agree! Considering Crabs, once healthy for the final 11 weeks, put up numbers with the best in the NFL, this is ludicrous. And thats just simply hating on Alex! You’ll be changing your tune shortly after this season starts. I gaurentee it!
@ Grant
Given the previous rankings and the explanation you’ve given I understand these ranks, but I’m not really on board. Alex & Crabs have been debated/vilified ad nauseum, so I’m just not going there again. I will say that I think #24 & #25 are too low for AS & MC respectively; jmo.
Moving on, there’s plenty of Dead Zone time between now and TC. Maybe the next thing is for those Niner players/staff who do check in on this blog & comments will want to rate US. Do it anonymously, guys, under goofy Blog names like ours.
Grant will be like Alex, predictably a lightning rod. There’s already a body of opinion out there. Some of the rest of us maybe better fasten our seat belts! : >)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know; most responses will likely be double-posting posers, (sigh), but whatchyagonnado?
You have Brian Jennings and cj spillman and Bruce miller ahead of Alex smith and Crabtree?! Did u even watch them play last year. Jennings is only a long snapper!! He plays around 10 plays a game and u rank him higher than our starting QB. You shouldnt be allowed to blog about the niners anymore.
I agree with you. I worked at a top 5 company for many years and was responsible for ranking all of my direct reports and coordinating the rankings of all of their teams. In a good ranking exercise you weight contribution heavily in determining performance. Smith touches the ball on every offensive play. Jennings gets very few touches. That alone puts Smith over Jennings last year IMO. I think Grant is simply looking at performance in their position compared to peers on other teams instead of ranking contribution within the team. I personally don’t think that’s a useful exercise but it’s fun to discuss.
Having said that, I don’t think 9er fans know what we have in Jennings. One of my very good friends was a long snapper in the league for 15 years. Jennings has been considered the best at his craft even among NFL players for a decade. He is very, very good. All long snappers know they are the guy no one knows unless something goes wrong. Who would remember Trey Junkin if it weren’t for the bad snap against the 9ers in the playoffs?
Grant Cohn your like Skip Bayless. COMPLETE IDIOTIC. Bruce Miller & Goodwin ahead of Crabtree? Gore as #13? When he is the heart & soul of this team? How do you even have a job? Who lets you write this garbage? Keep your garbage opinions to yourself or go write for Yahoo sports. Horrible posts.
grant is obviously trying to get a reaction. he does’nt truely believe in what he is writing and thats okay thats what blog writers do. please do’nt mistake his hyberbole with the hate mongering that skip bayless does. grant is getting exactly the response he is looking for but theres no vitirol in his writing
Uh, he did see Alex smiths terrible play last year. That’s why he ranked him #24. Personally I think he ranked him to high!!
I’ve a list of Top 5 49ers Most Valuable Gear:
1. JH’s play sheet
2. Fangio’s chair
3. Alex’s helmet mike
4. Akers’s kicking shoe
5. Gatorade kegs
Honorable mention: JH’s attires
The fact the Ginn is rated highter than Crabtree says it all, the post is utter rubbish
Hard to see Grants reasoning… his last few weeks of blogs have been good just to see it all come back around to Haterade. Ginn is the 5th or 6th WR and will only make the team if no one can replace him as a returner and Grant has him ahead of Crabtree.
Grant… please try an explain without being a spoiled brat little ass how Alex.. the QB of this team… is ranked at 26 behind a 2nd yr FB, ST stand out, ect? Just when you score some points you post trash. I’d love to have this discussion with you in person over a beer so you couldn’t hide behind this blog which you never earned in the 1st place.
You must have started the FB page “Bench Alex Smith” what a joke
Nepotism!
My word, it’s almost like rather than giving your actual opinions you’ve designed the article purely to generate hits, never mind that 70% of those hits will be people telling you what an idiot you are, a hit is a hit is a hit.
Either that or your name is actually Neal Jordan.
Seriously though, i’d love to hear a more in depth explanation of how you come to live in a world where C.J Spillman is a better football player than Alex Smith? A 3rd string safety?? he may be a great special teams player, but there is a reason he plays on special teams!! He’s not good enough to start!!! To voice this opinion can only mean that you believe Alex should be cut immediately, I mean if he is worse than a player who doesn’t start and in fact played only 1 snap on defence last year then why the hell is he on the team at all?
Spillman might be the best special teams gunner in the NFL. He’s much more excellent at his job than Alex Smith is at playing quarterback.
I’m not taking anything away from Smith, just pointing out how many Niners have Pro-Bowl or near-Pro-Bowl resumes.
So to clarify you are basically putting each player up against his peers around the NFL, and grading out your list from that impression?
Comparing the responsibilities of a special teams gunner to a quarterback? Wow. I’m speechless.
I didn’t compare their responsibilities. This isn’t a value-to-the-team ranking. It’s an excellence ranking.
Joe Montana was a more valuable player than Jerry Rice was, but Rice was a more excellent player than Montana was.
Don’t even bother Grant. These Smither are ultra senstive types. They’re pissed that you didn’t rank AS in the top 10. In their minds, that’s blasphemy.
Nick Row might be the best elephant crap shoveler the carnival industry has ever seen. Does that put him on par with Bill Gates on a list of the 20 best employees in the country?
CJ Spillman’s job is to play safety, in order to make the team as a safety he took on additional responsibilities in special teams and excelled.
Alex Smith’s job is to play QB, in order to make the team as a QB he has to take on the additional responsibility of handing off the football and learning the playbook.
Based on your own criteria, please revise your article and re-evaluate Smith based on his hand off skills, as well as Andy lee’s snap catching skills for field goals, Sopoaga’s skills as a blocker and Staley’s skills as a receiver.
Spillman is a special teams ace. That’s why he’s on the Niners and why he’ll be in the league for a good while.
@LSX
All that crap has to go somewhere. So open your mouth wide and say aahhhh. Thanks for volunteering.
I would say that Jerry Rice was a more excellent player then Steve Young, but Joe Montana greatest football player ever.
Somebody needs mouth wash.
Nick, why would Big M not enjoy the same anonymity as you enjoy when posting as a fan?
Maybe it would be more fun to figure out who he is than to just have him give you his name and the paper he writes for?
“He’s much more excellent at his job than Alex Smith is at playing quarterback.”
Well which job is harder to learn? Which job takes more athleticism? Which one takes more film study? Which one takes more skill? If I’m the waterboy on this team and I’m the best damn waterboy in the country, do I rank higher than Alex cuz I’m a better waterboy than he is a QB? Ya get my drift? It’s silly!!! It’s comparing apples to oranges.
>>He’s much more excellent at his job than Alex Smith is at playing quarterback.
Didn’t I read some comment from you on an earlier page that a player was ranked lower because he only had one job to do?
So what is it, GC? A maniac on SP gets ranked higher than the player playing the complex position of QB? Sheesh… hating can’t be any more obvious.
Grant
No doubt that the Niners ST was the one area where they had a huge advantage against their opponents last year. Much more so than on offense or even the defense. ST was the key to the Niners being as good as they were. As an aside, it just sucks that the ST stank in the Title game and ended up being the area most responsible for the loss.
I have no problem putting 4 ST’s guys on the top 10 or 15. They are:
1. Spillman
2. Akers
3 Lee
4. Jennings
But come on now. AS not in the top 10 on the team? Seriously? 6 Comeback wins aren’t enough for you? The NO Saint game throwing for 3 TD/Rushing for 1 TD and throwing no Int’s, something few QB’s have ever done in a game that matters (playoff) should get some kind of bonus. No average player does that. Think of all the great QB’s in the NFL and their playoff games, and for AS to do that in his first playoff game is AWESOME. As for the Title game, AS played better in that game than Brady did in the Super Bowl. How bad could he have been?
Whether you want to admit it or not, the QB is the leader on an NFL team. AS is the QB. To have so many comebacks requires great leadership. Again, that falls on AS more so than any other player. That means top 10. Easily.
This article is another example of why Grant is working as a blogger, a position his dad helped him get, and not making any decisions that can actually affect a football game. From someone who’s coached high school/college football and written for a local paper, Grant would rank pretty much dead last in a national ranking of “professional” journalists who cover an NFL team.
@ Big M
If what you say is true – that you’ve written for a local paper – then don’t hind behind a screen name and tell us about your credentials – like your real name and which paper you wrote for.
oops, hide .. not hind
Big m!! Why are u being so insulting? Cause he sees it different than u? Opinions don’t count but yours there hitler? Don’t be such an A hole!! personally I think he ranked Alex too high! But I guarantee grant knows a hell of a lot more about football then you do! Your like a student insulting the teacher for being dumb! Your the definition of an oxy moron!!
I agree with most all above… placing a smith below your long snapper and fullback is a total joke. It’s just mean-spirited and proves Cohn any cannot be counted on for any credible opinions… Here’s something a little more reasonable, based on their skills and contributions to the team, and projections for this year:
1. p willis…the best linebacker in the nfl, and best player on the niners.
2. J Smith, one of top 3 d lineman in nfl, and 2nd best player on 9ers.
3. Vn Davis, a top 3 te in the nfl…and besides gore, only offensive weapon
4. Fr Gore, 4th best rb in nfc, and one of only two weapons of 9er o.
5. N Bowman, any lb who leads teams in tackles, with p willis on same team is a stud.
6. Aldon Smith, should have been nfl def rookie of the yr.
7. C Rogers, you can’t argue with pro bowl numbrs, vs opp’s top wrs.
8. Alex Smith, has done more, with less than many qbs, and with good coach, good wrs, and decent o-line, he’ll prove his worth this year.
9. R Moss, if he’s 90% of his former self…
10. J Staley, best o-lineman, on good running team.
11. Mk Iupati, best run blking o-lineman on good running team.
12. Ry McDonald, stud d-lneman and run stuffer.
13. A Brooks, 2nd best pass rusher, on great defense.
14 Ds Goldson, there’s a reason 9ers franchice this guy.
15. I Soopoaga, another grt run stuffer.
16. tedd ginn, may have won 2 games for niners, and we lost big one w/o him.
17.Whitner, grt tackler, and gets on here for all-time grt hit vs saints,
18. M Crabtree, stuggled in playoffs, but was main wr all yr, and may be a very good no. 2 wr, w/ speed at the other side.
19 C Culliver. Very valuable, and will only get better.
20. Jn Goodwin, savvy vet makes it all work.
Guys who can break into top 10….L James, who can be very special, and if anything happens to Gore, this guy has d sproles-like ability and potential.
… despite contributions, I wouldn’t rank kickers in top 20 on any team.
…they’re barely football players, and I don’t rank a guy who comes in 3-5 times a game… to do their little specialty kicking thing.
A blog written by a child for childern.
I guess we are all children? Not sure thats a bad thing though :).
If you’d used the word “juvenile” I think it might have had better effect.
“childern” Lmao…….irony at it’s finest.
I get a feeling Anthony Davis might rank #54 on the team, after the water boy
The waterboy is really good at his job though! Maybe the best waterboy in the league! How is he not in Grant’s top 5???
LIKE!
It’s an opinion ladies and Gentlemen. If you disagree tell him why. Saying he’s and idiot and that you are taking your ball and going home is infantile. If you disagree then post the reasoning behind it.
As I read it, Grant is rating each player based on how well they play their particular position; not comparing how important each player is to the team.
Grant, you ar the worst when it comes down to protraying personal bias against players. How in all honesty can you rank a guy that had 19 tackles in special teams is more important than a guy that’s under center for nearl every single snap, won games, had 5 come from behind wins, won under very high profile conditions and lets not forget played when he had a friggin bounty on his head.
Seriously, you are a joke and continue to be a joke. When Josh J was picked up, didn’t you predic suggest that he was being brought in to compete and unseat Smith?
Though I have to say, please do keep up our personal bias. In the end the 9ers will refuse to deal with you and you will get shut out. I’m looking forward to day!
Exactly! Grant’s already pretty much burned the bridge with the team. I can’t imagine any other writer (assuming their pops didn’t have some pull around the office) would still be employed. I kind’ve felt for the PD when they lost Maiocco, but not after they’ve stuck with this guy for this long.
Big M……. Does the M stand for
Moron by any chance?
Well, when a fan has to resort to name-calling instead of using argument to refute a comment, his credibilty suddenly takes a giant leap toward trolling.
Spillman had 13 stops out of 15 tackles, not 19. These rankings were nothing more than an attempt to create controversy, thus generating more website hits. I could create my own list, publish it on bleacherreport, throw Smith and Crabtree below a long snapper and CJ Spillman, and sit back and watch the vultures flock. No wonder journalism is a dying breed, it so called writers like you that defecate all over the profession. If this blog is solely based on your opinion then how is any of it”Inside the 49ers.” How are your opinions providing insightful information and analysis about the team. You haven’t even clearly defined the criteria on what these rankings are. The only clearly stated criteria was players currently under contract. You should change the title of the blog to “How I Currently feel about the 49ers “. Ain’t nothing here but a child who thinks he knows something about football just because his dad covered the sport.
No, Spillman had 19: http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/CJ-Spillman-Eyes-Bigger-Role/2be671b1-fde1-4293-b501-f9bcf5bf8fce
Yes, I did define the criteria: http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/2012/06/inside-the-49ers/why-alex-smith-doesnt-make-the-niners-top-15/
Incredibly amateurish.
@jdillia, you obviously don’t
Know dilia squat! Hahahahaha!
>>GC: Yes, I did define the criteria.
And how many times are you going to define and redefine it?
>>GC: Andy Lee does one thing very well. Carlos Rogers, Ahmad Brooks and Ray McDonald are more versatile. They each play two positions at a high level.
One set of rules for some players. Another set for others. Wow, Grant… I hate to agree with the nitpickers, but terribly amateurish.
http://footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2012/2011-special-teams-tackles
Yes I already read your explanation of value versus best. Using your own comparison of alex smith and his back ups, CJ Spillman’s backup, if you want to call it that, is blake costanzo agreed? I see very little fall off between the two players yet here we are.
I’m going with the 49ers stats in this case, not football outsiders, but either way Spillman ranks as one of the best special teamers in the NFL.
@JDilla
Who cares what the stats are? Point is Spillman was awesome. Nobody was better at his position than Spillman was with the Niners. Constanzo is not in Spillman’s league. If he were, the Niners would have resigned him, like they did Spillman.
The D’s success largely stemmed from Lee’s great punts. And those punts don’t mean a thing if the returner gets a nice return. The field position game is won/lost on tackling the returner. The gunner is the one guy who can consistently get down the field and tackle the returner after a minimal gain (less than 5 yards). That means a lot if the punt is 50+. And Spillman made sure that returner didn’t get anything. pinning the opposing offense back, allowing the D to shut down the offense, and with our great returner, set up the next Niner possession a good 10-20 yards closer to the endzone. Making it easier for them to get into scoring range.
Like I said in my previous comment, it’s debatable and subjective.
Of all of the players on the team, the QBs success is contingent upon so many others executing their specific roles and responsibilities. That is why the QB is the most important and valued position on the field. Who was affected *more* by the hirings of MNolan, MSing, and JH, JSmith or AS? Who has *more* team responsibility, AS or PW? If the team lacks offensive playmakers, who is affected *more*, FGore or AS?
It’s apples and oranges!
Defining “best” works better when describing a tennis player or golfer whose success depends solely on them . When trying to determine the ranking of the best team player, it seems frivolous, even though it does generate some discussion albeit thin on facts.
All arrows up and all in!!!
You can say that about every position, not just the QB.
Jack look at the very first line he said – debatable and subjective, he took the words right out of my mouth.
Justin Smith – the most valuable/best player on the team. For many reasons.
Patrick Willis – is second, for many reasons
After that you all can make up any list you want in any order and it doesnt matter because the parameters are not set and if the parameters dont encompass the difficulty of the position then it merely beomes mostly popularity thing.
Undercenter,
Totally disagree that this is a popularity thing in any way.
As for my comment to Hofer, you missed my point which is that every position is dependant on others to succeed.
Every poll is subjective/debatable and based on opinion.
Popularity no? Alex Smith 25th and you think the list is spot on. Come on. If you guys truly believe that and if its true we go 8-8 at best.
And no I didnt miss your point with Hof. I fully understand each position is dependent on others, In fact Alex is dependent on all 10 remaining players to do his job.
Without paramerters validity of the article becomes questionable. List of parameters in no particular order.
1. How well does the player do his job?
2. The difficulty of the job.
3. Does the player make others around him better?
4. How much respect does the player command from the opposition.
Those things come to mind there could be others. You establish a scale from 1- 10 for each. Then you can make at least an educated guess on where one goes on the best list.
undercenter,
Yeah, I think it is spot on. Brian Jennings was a Pro Bowl long snapper and Alex Smith was, well Alex Smith.
It’s ok, I agree with it and you don’t. No biggie. Like Neal said below who gives a fart.
undercenter,
Alex Smith is more valuable to the team than Brian Jennings. I don’t think that is the point of this though. I think the ranking is based on how each player performs his job. In this case Jennings is a probowl Long snapper while Alex Smith is a middle of the pack QB.
If the ranking is based on how important each player is, then Smith is top 5 because the QB is that important, but as I said, I don’t think that is the point Grant is going for in this blog post.
This series of posts has been spot on Grant. It is unfortunate that some don’t realize that there’s a difference between value and best.
Keep up the good work.
Yeah, people have a tough time with simple reading comprehension around here.
Why anyone takes this place so seriously is beyond me. Who really gives a fart where the never great AS lands. lol
Neal,
Have you noticed how the die hard Smithers like DS, Oneniner, Primetime, etc. are nowhere to be found? I may have jinxed it, but this blog sure is better without the clutter and nonesense from those three.
Yes Nick Row,
I have noticed that they were not posting, it seems like we just got a few more new AS hater’s on here. What a shame.
I can imagine Grant making a list called “MLB’s Greatest Players” and having Lenny Harris and Tyler Cippard in the top 20 because they are the “best at their jobs.”
I hate to break it to you folks with the man-0crush on Alex, but he SHOULD have been #53.
He is the worst player in the NFL. Maybe in NFL history.
Oh look, the cat molester is back. The Jerry Sandusky of animal shelters. You should be in prison you sick piece of garbage.
Nobody else knows who you are, but if they did they would be as disgusted as I am. Do the world a favor and suck start a shotgun.
Pure troll hoping to get a good count on his responses! Only two? Need to get to work on the trolling because there are a lot better than you out there! LOL
grant i believe ur ranking of AS was about 12 or 13 to low but ur poin ts re: him are certainly arguable. i believe if he improves under harbaughs tutelage this yr as much as last you will be moving up to # 5 or 6
If Smith makes the Pro Bowl and wins the Super Bowl next season, he’ll have to be #5 or #6 at worst.
i think one or the other should get him there. if he earns both i think he becomes #1
Perhaps. The current top-five is off-the-charts excellent. They’ll be tough to unseat.
Justin Smith is arguably the best player in the NFL, not just on the Niners. Patrick Willis is in that conversation as well. And Aldon Smith may force his way into that conversation with another season like last season. Same with NaVarro Bowman. And if Vernon Davis can build off of his playoff performance, he really may go down as the greatest tight end of all time. We’ll see how things shake out.
I like Smith and am glad he is the QB, but there is 0.000000 chance he ever makes a pro bowl. Unless 4-5 players elect to sit out. Pro bowls are a stats/fan fav contest and Smith doesn;t compare to the top guys in either.
If he throws 28 touchdowns and 8 interceptions and wins 12 games, he’ll probably make the Pro Bowl.
Wins have never really factored into a QB making the pro bowl. Pro bowl is stat based and 28 TD’s wouldnt be enough. Rodgers and Brees are Guaranteed in it, assuming no injury, leaving one spot. So Alex Smith must basically statistically outplay Eli, Stafford, Newton, Romo, and Ryan. Fat chance. He does not get near the attempts to out perform them. If winnig factored in he would stand a chance. But he will need over 4000 30TDs and 1-2 QB’s sit out of the game.
The single-digit interception figure will work in his favor if he throws 25+ TDs.
“If he throws 28 touchdowns and 8 interceptions and wins 12 games, he’ll probably make the Pro Bowl.”
I can see that. Those numbers would reflect a huge leap for him and would get him the attention and respect necessary to get the votes.
If smith makes the super bowl and
Pro Bowl, than randy moss will have to unseat jerry rice as the greatest receiver of all time. Cause that, and miraculous divine intervention will be the only way Alex smith wins the super bowl and plays in the pro bowl. The niners went 13-3 and should’ve won the bowl last year, yet he couldn’t buy tix from a high priced scalper to the pro bowl, let alone play in it. That tells ya everything you need to know! And his only good stat was minimal picks? of course he didn’t throw picks. U gotta throw the ball to throw picks.
@Adam707
AS won’t make the Pro Bowl. Who cares.
AS will make the Super Bowl. Much more exclusive than the Pro Bowl is anyways.
Oldcoach, did you even go to school?
the keyboard on my computer is screwed up is that what you’re commenting on
No way MC and AS are not in top 20.
HERES THE RIGHT ONE 1. Patrick Willis 2 Vernon Davis 3. Navarro Bowman 4. Justin Smith 5. Carlos Rodgers 6. Frank Gore 7. Aldon Smith 8. Alex Smith 9. Andy Lee 10. Micheal Crabtree 11. Mike Iupati 12. Dashon Gholdston 13. Joe Staley 14. R. Mcdonald 15. Ahmad Brooks 16. D. Whitner 17. Sope 18.Akers 19. Ted Ginn 20.kendall hunter 20. Brown 21. Culliver The rest Miller, Brock, Jennings, davis, Ricky, Goodwin,
I won’t comment on the placement of all of the players here, but one stands out. Why is Michael Crabtree ahead of Ahmad Brooks, Dashon Gholdston, Joe Staley and Mike Iupati?
Off topic but somehow Haloti Ngata is rated higher than both JS and PW on the top 100. Thats hilarious
And higher than Suggs (vote happened before Suggs got hurt).
Suggs, Justin and Willis are all better than Ngata in my opinion.
Watching Willis’ intro video made me feel better.
You try really hard to be controversial, but you just come off as an idiot. The LS better than the starting QB and #1 WR? Give us a break…………
:s
I try SOOOO hard to stay away from this blog. Matt Maiocco made this place my favorite source of 9er info and Grant has taken advantage of that loyal base to incite web hits and drama. However, I drop in once in a while to see what the enemy is saying about our beloved team.
This blog has me literally laughing out loud. The title is “Ranking the Niner’s best Players”. If you want to know who our good players are, listen to our coaches. But there is 1 absurdity that is not being pointed out in this ranking list. To be one of our best players is not to be good at what you do. Case in point…. we may have a player that is UNREAL at practice squad participation. THE BEST EVER!!!! that is what he does and we like having him on our team cause he is good at it. But that is not what makes him our best player. Our best players are the ones who help us the very most to win games. And if you take that into account based on last years performances, then this list is a JOKE!!!!! Bryan Jennings is one of our best players cause he didn’t mess up a snap 10 times a game???? Because he doesnt mess up? He is the LONG SNAPPER FOR A REASON! He isn’t a football player. He isn’t capable of most of what makes a football player great. Yes he is very good at what he does. But Dixon makes an awesome water boy and cheerleader and we don’t have him on the list for that.
When you look at the people that produce and contribute to wins, this list changes dramatically. Just my 2 cents… (I can’t even believe I am posting… lol. It is late here in Berlin and I have already read everything on every other blog)
Exactly. Well said.
Grant, I am a little puzzled here. Is this a list of players who are the best for those at their position in the league (as in how good is PW v. other MLBs) or how good is a player at his position v. other players on the team at their positions. For instance, PW as MLB v. Chris Culliver as a corner? If you are doing it according to the former, for instance, then Brian Jennings should easily be top 5. He is the best LS in the league. So I am not sure how Brian Jennings is ahead of Alex unless it is according to the former criteria.
Dear Grant, I just read the post here where you say that your criteria, and in some ways I therefore disagree with your assessments more. For instance, if you are looking at players simply compared to their peers, then Andy Lee would have to be top 5. I love Vernon. I love Aldon. But Andy Lee is THE best P in the league. Aldon is not–right now–the best pass rushing OLB. Akers was a better kicker last year than Brooks was a rush linebacker. So it seems to me you are playing both sides against the middle when you say you aren’t looking at responsibilities. Certainly Ray Mac has more responsibilities than Akers, but goodness knows he was in no way a better DE than Akers was a kicker.
And hey, don’t worry about people of disagree with these things. Our responses are supposed to be to each other as well as you. So let’s have fun.
I’m having a problem with special teams niche players being ranked over starters. In most cases, if your best 22 players aren’t starting there is an issue (better depth at certain positions may affect that, e.g. Larry Grant may be better than whoever ends up at RG).
I get that the special teams was a huge part of the 49ers success in 2011 but even so these guys were not starting for the most part because they simply aren’t the best players. A ST guy needs to have a phenomenal year – like Akers or Lee – to be ranked ahead of starters.
Ginn had a great year as a return man, Jennings was a rock at LS and Spillman was great as a gunner but at the end of the day they all had great years as backups. I wouldn’t rank any of the three ahead of Alex or Crabtree.
They’re starters on special teams.
But the better players are starters on offense and defense in most cases. An average quarterback is a better player than a great gunner in my opinion (unless that gunner is also a great position player. Not because of value but simply playing ability.
The best players also tend to get removed from special teams to avoid injury.
Brian Jennings is a better starting long snapper than Smith or Crabtree are as starting QB and WR. Same thing with Ginn as the starting returner, and Spillman as a starting gunner. If you break their pay down to a per play basis, I bet it would be safe to say it is relatively similar as well.
Absolutely true Jack. Jennings was far better as a long snapper than Alex was as a QB. Ginn was better as a returner than Crabtree was at WR. I simply think it takes more talent to play QB or WR than it does to be a long snapper or return man. More talent = better player.
“Brian Jennings is a better starting long snapper than Smith or Crabtree are as starting QB and WR.”
Does this silliness ever end? A long snapper has minimal responsibility and the WR and especially the QB has many degrees of responsibility way above the role a long snapper performs. Apples and oranges!
Hofe- I was thinking the exact same thing. Wow, Grant really over-hypes special teams. A starter on special teams is still not a starter, give me a break.
Grant should’ve took my suggestion two weeks ago, to break down each projected starting player (offense & defense only) one day at a time rather than this ranking crap.
22 players in 22 days would’ve been better.
Of course the responsibilities are different between a long snapped and QB/WR. That doesn’t mean that Jennings/Ginn/Already/Lee were not better at their jobs than Alex Smith and Crabtree.
**snapper**
*Grant should’ve took my suggestion two weeks ago, to break down each projected starting player (offense & defense only) one day at a time rather than this ranking crap.”
Crab, that would have been an awesome idea and read. Not sure why GC didn’t take your suggestion – he’s usually pretty open to good articles/ideas.
Wow. I’m an Alex skeptic, but… wow.
Grant just didn’t jump the shark, he had carnal knowledge of it, and had it’s love child.
Mid teens, okay… 24? You might need to adjust the tin foil hat. Or declare which bridge you prefer to live under. :)
Remember, “best versus valuable” that is the differentiator and the validation point. LMAO!!!
It Looks like the smith fans really don’t know what kind of team we had last season. Potential pro bowlers all over this roster. I really have to question their fanhood. I see some putting down others play for the sake of Alex smith. A qb that led a bottom 5 offense in passing. The others mentioned help lead a top ranked defense and ST. THE main reason smith and the offense had a shot in the playoffs. It’s cool to back your team, but to discredit other players for one is a joke. It’s a onelame move. And even a ds move. Alex smith wasnt anything special last season, he was just a lot better than years past. THAT’S how bad he was before. Transformed into a mediocre/decent qb. When are you smith fans going to realize that although last season was an improvement, it’s still not good enough. There are 4 qb’s on the roster and manning if he chose the 49ers would be the starter right now. Smith hitting FA and getting NO attention in this league proves that he wasn’t the leader of the success last season and that backup QB’s wanting more money that they’re worth aren’t needed. Big FA qb last season besides Manning????? Matt fn Flynn a backup qb. Get real Smithers. You are truly the only ones who place him that high. Go Niners and GO Smith!
“Alex smith wasnt anything special last season, he was just a lot better than years past. THAT’S how bad he was before.”
That is true and his numbers show that. TD’s were one better than his career high, yards per pass .2 better than previous career high. He excelled at playing cautious and not turning the ball over. The major difference was the play of the defense and huge special teams improvement (remember the days when they couldn’t even field a punt), all led by a winning coaching staff.
MD, you are missing the point. It’s not about the AS ranking. It’s about ranking players in different positions to each other by using the “best” mantra – apples and oranges scenario. There are different levels of responsibility and some are more dependent on others to perform to ensure their performance is being achieved.
If you compare “best” with like positions (same team or other teams) then there is a distinction and all attributes can be measured. Otherwise, it is frivolous. Have you ever seen an article building an argument regarding who is best on a team (beyond the #1 or #2 players)?
An example is ABrooks ranking at #7 “best” player. Does everyone here believe that 7 sacks elevates AB to the #7 “best” player on the whole 9er team? Really?
Hof I get it. It’s the same tho g the top 100 is doing, it’s for fun and it’s lame that some can’t handle someone else’s opinion. I agree with grant. Position by position I can’t see smith playing better than the others mentioned on this list. Nor do I think Andre ware is the best lb in the game. But it is what it is.
MD,
That’s a fair assessment although I think you are still undervaluing the role the offense played in the teams success last year.
There is no question the best unit on this team was the defense, followed by ST’s. Where I differ is in that they carried the team and the offense came along for the ride. That is not what I saw happen and it really ignores the great Coaching job done by Harbaugh and Co. last year.
Whether you approved or hated it, the offensive philosophy was to not make mistakes, take advantage of every opportunity to score, win the field position battle, and keep the clock moving with a lead. It worked for the most part and the times they had to rely on the offense to lead a comeback, they usually came through. It’s all the phases working together that led to the success this team had.
Rocket our defense was a one and a million defense last season. It wasn’t just good it was historically good. That is the reason why I say last season the offense rode the back of the defense to get to the NFC title game. We will not see that kind of defense again. Look what happened when we needed the offense in that game. This is where I want to see an offense that we don’t have to worry about, one that we know will show up and do its part, one that if the defense gives it 5 TO in a game, Game over!!!! Sorry bro but without the play of the defense last season and historic mind you… There is no NFC championship game. Yeah the offense rode the back, and include Akers in that also.
MD,
I loved the way our defense played last year, but you are overrating it big time. They were good; not historically good. They weren’t even the top rated defense in the league. This is what I’m talking about when I say you are giving way too much credit to one side of the ball.
Just for fun let’s break down the losses the team had last season and see what the determining factors were.
First loss of the season came against Dallas. The Niners had a 10 point lead with 11 mins to go. A historically great defense closes that out; ours didn’t and gave up a huge play to lose the game in OT to boot.
2nd Loss came to the Ravens. In this one the offense was a mess from the Oline, to Smith, to penalties that took away a big play. The defense played well enough to win but still gave up a couple of long drives that resulted in Ravens points.
3rd loss came against the Cards on the road. Not a good offensive game, but the Niners take a 19-6 lead early in the second half. A historically good defense will not let this slip away to a below average football team. So what happened? On the next Cardinal possession, the Niners give up a 6 play 80 yard TD drive that gets the crowd back in it and they ultimately give up the winning TD in the 4th quarter.
Final loss of the season comes in the NFC Championship game to the Giants. Niners have a 14-10 lead early in the 4th quarter. Kyle Williams has a punt glance off his foot, Giants recover, wind up scoring a TD on a 3rd and 15 play to take a 17-14 lead. Niners next possession they get good field possession at their 45, move it down to the 7 and the drive stalls, but they tie the game immediately after giving up the lead. Game stays that way, goes to OT, where after one possession by the Niners and two by the Giants, Kyle Williams fumbles the punt, the Giants get it deep in Niner territory, move into easy FG position and win the game.
So if we look at these losses here’s what I come up with:
One loss clearly on the defense, one loss clearly on the offense, one loss on both, and one loss on the ST’s. So after all of that, I have to say not only was the defense not a one man show, but they weren’t historically good either, quite a ways off actually.
They were good, at times great, but also at times they were poor and couldn’t put games away. If you really look at the season honestly and put the hyperbole away, you see a season where all 3 phases did their part and fit together well. You had a defense that was good at getting TO’s, an offense that didn’t turn the ball over and ST’s that gave both the offense and defense good starting field position most of the time.
It wasn’t one or the other. It was all three. The defense was our best performing unit, but they had a lot of help and there is no way this team wins 14 games without big time contributions from the offense.
rocket,
The defense was historically good in that they set an all time record for consecutive games without allowing a rushing TD.
As for the breakdowns of the losses they are right on the money. As for the Az game, I see your point in that although the offense failed to put the game away due to their inability to put the ball in the endzone, the defense should have won it for them. It also might have helped them if the offense had managed a single first down during the half.
Good point Jack. I view historically good in comparison to defenses like the 85 Bears, Steelers and Cowboys of the 70′s and even the Ravens of 2000 though. Not allowing a rushing TD is a great feat, but it doesn’t make you a historically great defense.
The AZ blame falls on both sides for those very reasons. The offense dried up in the second half, but the defense had hardly been on the field when they took a 19-6 lead. That’s when a great defense closes it out. Not only didn’t they close it out, they gave up a TD on the next drive. That’s not great defense in any way shape or form.
Jack said it perfectly. A consecutive No rushing td’s record and are in the record books for the fewest in a season with two. Are they the 85 bears? No, but they are damn close and were on the field longer. Ravens and bears had monster running games and better qb play those seasons. See where I am getting at? Even a 10th ranked passing attack would solidify a super bowl. I don’t know what team or defense you were watching, but I’m those early games I have to pull the old “continuity” card the smith fans love to use.
And 1 last thing about the Dallas game. If harbaugh trusted his qb then he wouldn’t have negated a first down penalty and we win that game and your question
About the defense is moot. Another reason I say smith and the offense rode the back of the defense.
Jack said it perfectly. A consecutive No rushing td’s record and are in the record books for the fewest in a season with two.
It’s very impressive no doubt about it, but that is not what you were referring to in your post. You referred to the defense as historically good and 1 in a million which was over the top and not even remotely correct. They were excellent against the run, average against the pass. They were nowhere near being one of the best defenses in history; they weren’t even the top ranked defense this season and that’s with the benefit of an offense that was among the league leaders in TOP and not turning the ball over.
Are they the 85 bears? No, but they are damn close and were on the field longer.
No they aren’t damn close and the Niners ranked 5th in the league in TOP, so your theory is wrong. The offense held the ball and didn’t turn it over which is about as much as an offense can help a defense stay off the field and not have to defend a short one.
Ravens and bears had monster running games and better qb play those seasons. See where I am getting at?
I don’t what you are getting at because the Niners had a comparable running game to the Ravens and Alex Smith was better than McMahon and Dilfer in their SB years.
In the Bears SB season, Jim MacMahon threw 15 TD’s, 11 Ints, and completed 57% of his passes.
In the Ravens SB year, Dilfer threw 12 TDs, 11 Ints, and completed 59% of his passes
Even a 10th ranked passing attack would solidify a super bowl.
It would help, but scoring efficiency is far more important. We’ve already debunked the myth of passing yards equalling success. It’s about yards per attempt and scoring. If the Niners can improve on 3rd down and in the redzone, they can play the same style they did last year and probably win the SB.
I don’t know what team or defense you were watching, but I’m those early games I have to pull the old “continuity” card the smith fans love to use.
Sure the defense needed time to gel as well, but you have to be fair to both sides, and the defense had it’s share of problems the second half of the season and in the playoffs too. I’m not saying the defense didn’t do it’s part. I’m saying the people who are giving all the credit for last season to the D and ST’s are delusional. It simply isn’t true.
And 1 last thing about the Dallas game. If harbaugh trusted his qb then he wouldn’t have negated a first down penalty and we win that game and your question About the defense is moot. Another reason I say smith and the offense rode the back of the defense.
This is complete Bullsh*t MD. Smith had thrown two TD’s and was completing 67% of his passes in that game. How you can try to pass off this crap with what we saw over the course of the season is beyond me.
Harbaugh did what he continued to do the rest of the season. He took the two score lead, had the offense move to a 4 minute offense to keep the clock moving and relied on his defense to hold the lead. They couldn’t do it. End of story.
Rocket rocket rocket……….Two records are historical. FACT! I said they werent the 85 Bears, but as far as shutting down the run, and giving up under 2 td’s avg a game, Yeah they were damn good, and HISTORICALLY GOOD!
Now. Care to throw out the rest of the stats between Smith and Dilfer and McMhahon? And please include their 3rd down% and Redzone %. In those playoffs. Thaaanks!
The 2000 Ravens had a 2000 yard runner, how in the world was our running game comaparable to theirs?
And the Dallas game. Name the last time a coach decides to NOT take a penalty that puts them in the redzone with a new set of downs. Get real. Harbaugh didnt trust our qb, and why should he? He was the worst redzone qb last season. Thats why I blame Harbaugh for that loss, ATLEAST they run more time off the clock. I HIGHLY DOUBT NE, NO, GB, DAL, or ANY TEAM doesnt take that penalty. Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Everyone like to give credit to the offense for the Eagles game. They deserve some, but it was the offense and defense that were asleep in the first half, and BOTH came alive in the second. Now I give credit to J Smith for causing the game ending fumble. Now which is Phillys strongsuit? The Offense, and our defense shut them down in the second half. And sealed the victory. I can name 1 other game where the Offense MATCHED the defense step for step. The TB game. Thats it. Rocket the fact is our defense and special teams were top ranked. Our passing attack was bottom 5 in the league. There is NO dispute that the defense and ST “Akers,and lee’ Were the biggest reason we got that far.
What kind of playoff caliber Offense gets 13 points out of 5 TO? What kind of playoff Offense has aweful 3rd down conversions and redzone conversions? NOT Dilfer and the RAVENS, And NOT McMhahon and the Bears! LAST TIME I SAY THIS…….27TH RANKED PASSING ATTACK!!!! Thats all that needs to be said! PERIOD, POINT MADE, THEEEE END!
@rocket “They were excellent against the run, average against the pass.”
I’m curious why you call the 49ers average against the pass. The only measure by which they were average was in total yards (16th) – the same stat you mock in regards to Smith’s 29th ranking in the league.
In opposing passer rating, comp %, YPA, TD/Int ratio, total TDs allowed they were in the top 10.
I’m cool with you calling the 49ers’ passing D average based on total yards if you wish. You should apply the same standard to Alex in that case.
MD,
Answering your comments in order:
You said they were damn close to the 85 Bears and they weren’t. They were excellent against the run, but they were not a historically good defense overall. I hate that I have to argue negatively against our defense, I loved the way they played, but the truth is the truth.
I don’t know what the redzone and 3rd down stats were for McMahon and Dilfer, but it’s irrelevant. Those are offensive stats not QB stats. When looking at the QB’s themselves, Smith was better than both of them.
The Ravens ran for about 150 yards more than the Niners did this past year. That is comparable, in fact pretty damn close to borrow your venacular regarding the defense to the 85 Bears.
Many Coaches keep the points on the board in that situation MD. It gives you a two score lead in the 4th quarter and the defense had been playing well. Harbaugh played the percentages and lost, but it’s a decision I’ve seen many HC’s make. No matter how it turned out however, it had absolutely nothing to do with his confidence in Smith. That is a fabrication made up by people looking for a reason to slam the QB and nothing more. It was complete nonsense when it was suggested at the time and even moreso now when we saw the strategy deployed throughout the season.
In the Philly game Justin Smith made a game saving play as the Philly offense was rolling yet again. That was not a good game for the defense at all. They gave up over 500 yards of offense MD. Credit them for making a play at the end, but that was a poor game by our defense and they were bailed out by the offense in the second half along with holding Philly to a FG in the second half which was the difference. All phases working together MD. That’s what wins ball games.
I’ll quote your last reference before responding:
Thats it. Rocket the fact is our defense and special teams were top ranked. Our passing attack was bottom 5 in the league. There is NO dispute that the defense and ST “Akers,and lee’ Were the biggest reason we got that far.
What kind of playoff caliber Offense gets 13 points out of 5 TO? What kind of playoff Offense has aweful 3rd down conversions and redzone conversions? NOT Dilfer and the RAVENS, And NOT McMhahon and the Bears! LAST TIME I SAY THIS…….27TH RANKED PASSING ATTACK!!!! Thats all that needs to be said! PERIOD, POINT MADE, THEEEE END!
As much as I’m getting tired of saying this I’ll say it again: the passing game was not ranked 27th, 26th, 29th or whatever other number you choose to pull out of your ass. That was their ranking for passing yards which are dependant on attempts, which we were also ranked near the bottom in. The offense was ranked in the middle of the pack in yards per attempt and 11th in points scored. You need to get over this obsessive view of passing yards and see some reality.
The 13 points the offense got off the 5 TO’s was not as much as we’d like, but it’s understandable when looking at the way this team played throughout the season. Two of the TO’s also came in their own zone, one inside their ten so to blame them for not scoring on those is ridiculous. As it was the offense moved the ball to midfield on the first TO, which led to Lee pinning the Saints deep and the offense scoring a TD on their next drive. Another example of the different phases complimenting each other.
I also can’t understand why some choose to focus on that part of the game when our offense scored two TD’s in the last 4 minutes to win the game. Do you honestly think Rodgers, Brady etc. score after every TO? Or never get caught in a close game? I seriously question whether some of you actually watch other games or just look at stats or even not pay attention to them whatsoever.
Lastly, posting your point in capitals does not make it any more legit MD. Your points are flawed because you don’t have the proper info to draw from. You are taking a myopic view of the offense while giving undue credit to the other two area’s. Our defense was the best unit on this team; no question about it. But you don’t win that many games without the offense playing a big role and they did in a number of games.
msc,
I’m curious why you call the 49ers average against the pass. The only measure by which they were average was in total yards (16th) – the same stat you mock in regards to Smith’s 29th ranking in the league.In opposing passer rating, comp %, YPA, TD/Int ratio, total TDs allowed they were in the top 10.
I looked at them the exact same way I looked at Smith which was yards per attempt. In that category they were middle of the pack with teams like the Saints and Raiders for example.
I’m cool with you calling the 49ers’ passing D average based on total yards if you wish. You should apply the same standard to Alex in that case.
That is exactly what I did.
They were tied for 10th in yards per attempt/avg, not middle of the pack.
Besides cutting down on the interceptions, what did Alex Smith do differently or better in 2011 than he did in 2009 or 2010? The answer is nothing. Other than the reduction of int’s, which can’t be discounted, he was the same player.
This team reached the level they did because they had a +28 TO margin, kept opponents out of the end zone, played great on special teams, and pulled off some comebacks that they weren’t able to in years past because they were too far behind when the rally started.
Jack,
They were tied for 10th in yards per attempt/avg, not middle of the pack.
They were a tenth of a yard better than the Saints at #14. I look at the averages and see who stands out Jack. The Niners pass defense didn’t, just like Alex Smith is in a field of about 4-5 other QB’s in the middle of the pack.
Besides cutting down on the interceptions, what did Alex Smith do differently or better in 2011 than he did in 2009 or 2010? The answer is nothing. Other than the reduction of int’s, which can’t be discounted, he was the same player.
Wrong again Jack. He improved in completion percentage, TD to Int. ratio, Yards per attempt, Rushing yards and overall QB rating. The biggest difference however was that he stayed healthy and started every game which he hadn’t done since his second season. That made a huge difference.
This team reached the level they did because they had a +28 TO margin, kept opponents out of the end zone, played great on special teams, and pulled off some comebacks that they weren’t able to in years past because they were too far behind when the rally started.
Very true, but the point is the offense played a key role in what you just listed. The whole crux of this discussion is the offenses value to the teams success last year, and this just provides more evidence that they played a very big role in it. It wasn’t just the defense and ST’s. It was all 3.
Rocket, “He improved in completion percentage, TD to Int. ratio, Yards per attempt, Rushing yards and overall QB rating”
Correct, I should have said significant improvement. The completion percent improved by less than 2%, I already said the TD to Int ratio was significant, yards per attempt was only 2 tenths better, rushing yards per attempt only 1 tenth better, and the overall QB Rating increase has a direct correlation to the TD to Int ratio that I already mentioned.
The point is, that other than the reduction in Int’s/TD to Int ratio there was no significant changes in Smith’s play, not which side of the ball was most important.
Nice points rocket.
But gotta disagree with you on your stance that the D was the best unit on the team. As you pointed out, the D was near the top, but not the top in several categories.
Our ST on the other hand were the best. We were (top 2 now) best Punter (Lee), kicker (Akers), Punt Returner (Ginn). No team came remotely close to ours in terms of our ST. Other teams were closer to our team defensively. Thus the ST were the best unit.
Come on Rocket, while you are correct that Smith improved in other categories besides his turnovers, those improvements were so slight that they are not worth mentioning as improvements. Basically he was the same player that he was the last six games from last year.
He’s made it a priority to not turn the ball over. Now he has to improve his production, third down conversions and his scoring. I have news for you, it isn’t his mechanics that is holding him back. It’s what’s between his ears that is doing it…..
@md
What if we make graphs of each unit(O, D, ST) from Week 1 to the end of the season, on unit strength/health, you would see the O’s goes from maximum in WK 1 to near bottom in season end. Even the max value of the O was not a true max because one main piece, Braylon Edwards, was nowhere near expectations.
In this sense, I even give the O more credit for operated in a depleted state, while the D’s depth sustained their high level of play. ST was obviously weaken with Ginn out. That’s another story. NO one was riding on coattails in my book. I am not going to overlook everyone’s hard work, including the offense.
And I’m not gonna go around in circle w/ the free agency thing. Just ask his teammates if AS is a leader.
Really Claude? You are going to use a 2012 fantasy guide to support your ranking? You can do better than that I think.
Besides, if he is able to take advantage of the new weapons he will be ranked much higher in 2013.
Albert our fg kicker set a record and the passing attack was ranked 27th. Defense ranked 1 in points allowed. Yeah riding those coat tails heavily! It’s all good. They had success doing it and that’s ok for a first year team with no offseason. That can’t and won’t happen this season.
Albert,
Have you ever had a moment when you said WTF? Well, that’s how I felt after reading your comments.
@NR
A dozen cookies was awarded.
6 awarded to the D, 3 to ST, 3 to O.
The O wants to give one more cookies to the D.
“You guys kept us in games, you deserve one more.”
But D said..
“NO, the O has done more than enough to win games, especially with all the injuries, keep it.”
Does this help? LOL
AlbertS says:
June 28, 2012 at 1:52 pm
@NR
A dozen cookies was awarded.
6 awarded to the D, 3 to ST, 3 to O.
The O wants to give one more cookies to the D.
“You guys kept us in games, you deserve one more.”
But D said..
“NO, the O has done more than enough to win games, especially with all the injuries, keep it.”
Does this help? LOL
Sounds like excuses to me. Did they win a Superbowl with this Offense that “just does enough to win games?” NOPE! This is why Harbaugh wanted Manning, this is why they put all of these weapons around Smith, this is why they got SPEED! Because they KNOW the Offense last season Isnt and wasnt good enough to win a Superbowl. Blame KW but I was there and saw Smith miss that same KW wide open down field and not even look at DW running wide open. You know who I saw do those things? Manning, the 3 shots he had HE TOOK! Thats how you beat a great defense. Smith couldnt, EVEN THOUGH HE HAD SHOTS! Like I told Rocket……TOP RANKED DEFENSE AND ST…….27TH RANKED PASSING ATTACK. Now if you can search for some lame stats like Fraudballs tried to do to debunk this fact. Im done with this convo. Its elementry to argue facts. Facts dont lie, and neither does our team trying to upgrade the QB postition. =-) Dont worry though. Like HARBAUGH and the rest of the team believes,I do too…….. Alex Smith will FINALLY show everyone what a passing attack is suppose to look like. SUPERBOWL CHAMPIONSHIP!!!! Bank on that!
MD, AlbertS is correct. In this case, excuses equal facts. The team was decimated and depleted in the WR position. I believe if JMorgan was healthy the whole year, the 9ers win the SB. You can’t put the onus on the players on offense when the talent isn’t at a high level. Both MC and AS were affected by lack of talented support throughout the offense in 2011 due to injuries.
Now this year, it’s a different story. Too many weapons on offense for even the top defenses to cover. It’s going to be a great year!!
Really?
You are truly the only ones who place him that high.
Really?
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/68861/four-fantasy-nuggets-from-fitz-to-lynch
KC Joyner is very indepth with the numbers. That is a no no on this board. Many prefer their own view with no factual data to back it up.
Lmao!!!! Claude. Are you a yoga instructor? You are stretching my friend. Fantasy geeks like you who break down this garbage and draft a player are a joke. 27th rank in passing. That’s all I need to know. Round of applause for claude everybody!!!! He is the smither of the day. Oh and btw I missed where smith was ranked in this top 100. If Claude sees his elite stature, then his peers must see the same.
Do you have an actual counter argument to his post MD? I didn’t see anything in your response that refuted what was said.
@Claude
Thanks for sharing that link. Bad decision rates (BDRs), as the article refers to them, for Alex Smith are higher for medium range (11-19 yards) passes than for deep passes (20-29 yards) or bombs (30+ yards). That’s something I wasn’t expecting.
Perhaps, one explanation, is that deep passes and bombs are – for the most part – primary reads and don’t require improvisation. But, when a play breaks down and chaos ensues, then the rate of bad decisions go up.
@Schwetty,
Bad Decision Rates is nothing more than dividing total int’s by total passes. This silly link is just a lot of fluff telling us what we already know….Alex Smith was careful with the football had led the league with the fewest of all starters.
Bravo Schwetty, Bravo.
Nick,
The explanation for a higher # of int’s in the 11-19 range is because that is the are that he threw the most passes into. That chart is a joke. Anyone who can look up stats and divide can put it together.
Bad Decision Rates is just a fancy name.
Hey Rocket……..What part of 27th ranked passing attack did you not get? Thats all I need and to trust what I see. Fantasy Stats are a joke. No need in me arguing them. Because they still add up to…………………………27th ranked Passing attack. Thats all!
md,
Schwetty and Co like to point out how that 27th best passing team is off because Smith threw the fewest passes in the NFL, which is true.
What they don’t like to mention is that his 7.1 yards per attempt was still only 17th best, in other words, average.
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_AVERAGE_YARDS&tabSeq=0&season=2011&Submit=Go&experience=null&archive=false&statisticCategory=PASSING&conference=null&qualified=true
@ninermd:
What makes me laugh is that you don’t realize how internally inconsistent your own comments are.
You try to slam me for allegedly being a fantasy geek, but you are the one who keeps insisting that the 49ers’ passing attack ranked 27th. It didn’t. Alex Smith’s QB rating was the 9th best in the league. According to Football Outsider’s DYAR and DVOA rankings, he finished 13th and 14th, respectively. The only way you can say that the 49ers passing attack ranked 27th is if you are obsessed with passing yards (even then, I think you have the ranking wrong). Obsession with passing yards is the mark of a fantasy football junkie.
You really ought to let someone else read your comments before you post them. It would help you avoid embarrassing yourself so often.
@Jack:
I linked the article in response to ninermd’s comment.
That said, just because certain facts don’t support your opinion of Smith doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
The fact is that the NFL’s QB rating stat is the official stat for ranking QBs and has been for years. Alex Smith ranked 9th in that stat for 2011.
You will notice that the system’s ranking of QBs correlates strongly with the success of the QBs’ respective teams. Nine of the ten highest rated QBs played for playoff teams. Similarly, seven of the QBs rated in the bottom ten played for teams with top ten draft picks.
And I am sure that it is just coincidence that the three highest rated QBs are Brees, Rodgers, and Brady.
Finally, I want to note that your pretend objectivity is showing holes.
@NickRow:
I haven’t given the issue much thought, but your explanation seems logical.
I’d like to see the numbers for other QBs for comparison purposes, but I’m too cheap to pay for ESPN Insider. As I mentioned to Jack, I cited that article merely to respond to an inane comment from ninermd. I haven’t spent much time reviewing Joyner’s numbers or his system for evaluating QBs, so I don’t want to mislead anyone into thinking that I vouch for them.
@Schwetty,
The link was worthless in that all it did was come up with a fancy name for interception to pass ratio. There were no facts in there that discredit anything I have ever said about Smith.
I am quite aware that Smith’s overall QB rating was 9th, that is the direct result of his low interception total, which was his only real area of significant improvement over the previous 2 seasons and a direct result of the Harbaugh way. Without him doing that the team would have struggled to win those close games due to their lackluster performance on 3rd down and in the red zone.
All that being said, if they don’t improve in those two areas it will be difficult to reach the success they had last season because +28 is very unlikely to happen again. The table has been set with the additions in the offseason, now it is time for them to put up or shut up, and with Harbaugh in charge I have little doubt they will.
@ninermd:
I don’t play fantasy football and have little use for it. I also never said that Smith was elite.
Instead of refuting the actual arguments I make or the actual facts I cite, you repeatedly invent arguments I never made just so you have something to say in response.
Why is that?
Claude nobody invited you into the conversation. Fine that you want to get in it. But stick to the argument. That being said, if you can ever admit that the passing game was the weak link to the team last season we would be fine. It’s a fact Claude. Qbr is a media made up stat, that doesn’t show the whole story. In game situations do. Qbr doesn’t show how smith is ok between the 20′s scoring td’s is what counts. How did smith fair in that category. See Claude the convo was about how great the defense and st were, compared to the passing attack. If you want to dig up stats to debunk this FACT go ahead. You look foolish. I’m sorry I can admit that our qb was average last season. You say he’s not elite, and that’s true. So what’s your beef with my stance then? I’m saying the same thing. And as you should know. It’s very rare teams win superbowls with pretty much defense only. Bears bucs and ravens… One and done. Let’s make it simple Claude. If the passing game was good enough then why go
After manning? Why upgrade the wr? Why let smith test FA? You should know my stance by now claude. I will not call a Ferrari a Ferrari when it’s a practical mini van, but I think smith will turn into that sports car we always wanted to see. You may like the mini van, but in this nfl you need the sports car.
And Albert and Hoff…. Smith looked the same with JM nothing changed due to injuries. The whole team was relatively healthy the whole year. In fact P Willis was the biggest injury and the defense pretty much stayed its course. The injury excuse doesn’t work for last season.
And Albert. It seems you are new here. So let me tell you my stance. I never cared for smith before. And had every reason not to. Last season harbaugh showed he can revitalize this kids career. I thought smith showed some balls last season for once. That alone is worth my faith in him. I also bet a friend that he would crack top 7 this season overall. I fully believe smith will. But I can’t say he was a top 3 reason we made it that far last season. Kicking more fg than td’s isn’t what an offense is suppose to look like. Not a Super Bowl caliber one at least. I don’t care about being right in this loooong smith debate. Like some morons named oneniner. I just want my team to win superbowls, and I want another great qb to do so. It’s an offensive driven league. And like I said before defensive teams are always one and done. Last season was our 1. Time to put up some td’s and win number 6. And I believe it will be done. So putting up my fanhood and maybe having to sport a crappy bears jersey should tell you I have a lot of faith in mr smith this season.
@ninermd:
Qbr is a media made up stat, that doesn’t show the whole story.
Man, the ignorance never stops with you, does it?
The NFL’s passer rating statistic is not a “media made up stat,” but rather the NFL’s official measurement of passing performance. And although it does not measure everything a QB does, the NFL’s passer rating statistic is concisely comprehensive, taking into account a QB’s completion percentage, yards/attempt, TDs/attempt and interceptions/attempt.
But don’t take my word for it. Read this article from the NFL Hall of Fame website and learn something:
http://www.profootballhof.com/history/release.aspx?release_id=1303
Claude,
The QBR md is referring to is a stat that ESPN made up, and the QBR you are referring to is the official NFL quarterback rating. This is just an instance where the abbreviations made things unclear.
You’ve got to admit though that Bad Decision Ratio link from yesterday was pretty worthless, and there was nothing in that piece to debunk anything that md had said leading up to that point.
@Jack:
I don’t think so. I previously cited Smith’s 9th place ranking in the NFL’s passer rating stat (I called it QB rating) in comments to both ninermd and you. I believe that ninermd was responding to that. I never cited to ESPN’s QBR stat, so he would not have had any reason to dismiss that stat.
I cited Mike Sando’s article referencing KC Joyner to counter ninermd’s assertion that no one outside of the “Smith Lovers” values Smith highly. Joyner clearly does.
And although you may not agree with Joyner’s analysis/conclusions, your dismissal of his numbers are worthless is not well-taken. You haven’t read his entire guide, only blurbs reprinted by Sando, so you don’t have full knowledge of his methodology. Without that knowledge, I don’t see how you can credibly pass judgment on his methodology or his numbers. Sando, for whom I have a lot of respect, has access to the complete guide, discussed it with Joyner, and thought that Joyner’s numbers/conclusions were worthy of consideration.
*your dismissal of his numbers as worthless is not well-taken.
Claude,
The best you could do was a fantasy football guy? That’s funny ; )
As for Joyner’s analysis, the reason Sando cites it is because it relieves him of having to take the time to go onto his own companies website and look them up himself. All he is doing is breaking down the splits information to give you a ratio and coming up with a fancy name for each, ie Bad Decision Ratio. Grant gave you the same thing in the AS breakdown above without the fancy name.
@md
I’m gonna go on this injury “circle” once more, then I’ll stop. Feel free to have the last say.
What I saw when Morgan was in the games, he got opened and caught passes.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/teams/sfo/stats
15 receptions,12 1st downs.
I think as the season went further, like Vernon, JMorgan would improve even more, and targeted more since BEdwards was not up to par due to various factors.
Then you have KW, getting in rhythm in a few games, then took at cheap shot concussion, and IMO, was never the same.
No. The receiving corp was not healthy for the most part of the season. especially toward the end and lead into the playoff. Bad timing.
Willis was replaced by LGrant admirably and as I said, the D had the depth, but the O didn’t.
I can keep writing, but here you go. FWIW
@Jack:
I tried to help you, but you insist on leveling ignorant criticisms. Although KC Joyner writes an annual fantasy football guide, he is not merely “a fantasy football guy.” He’s a well-respected metrics guy who regularly provides statistical analysis on a wide variety of football topics. Here’s a link to his website, but you may want to do a quick Google search to educate yourself: http://www.thefootballscientist.com/kcjoyner/
The fact you would compare what Joyner does to Grant’s one paragraph blurb is further evidence that you don’t really understand Joyner’s work.
Jack,
Here’s how Joyner describes the BDR:
“It is by definition a subjective metric,” Joyner writes. “But this subjectivity is held in place by a set of objective rules that limit the amount of sway the subjective side has in ruling a play as a bad decision.”
In other words, it’s not an exact science, but it’s more concise than people on here coming in with their uneducated views on the matter, and I include myself in this category as well. This guy does the research and comes up with numeric trends that are usually spot on. I’ve been reading this guy for years and he isn’t just some Fantasy junky, he’s a math geek who comes up with compelling arguments.
MD,
Until you can figure out how off base you are when you refer to the passing game as 27th in the league, there’s nothing more for us to discuss on the subject. Arguing over something you have misunderstood from the start is a waste of time.
Claude/Rocket,
All Joyner is doing is breaking down the splits info that anyone can pull up if they had the time. Sorry if I’m not impressed.
Jack,
But that’s the point. He is doing something that takes a lot of time that others don’t have the time or patience to do. He is putting some numerical evidence behind the viewpoints instead of just throwing out opinionated statements like we all do on here. You don’t have to be impressed, but it’s hard to argue with someone who has put the time in to do the research when you haven’t.
@Jack:
I won’t/can’t defend or even define Joyner’s methodology because I don’t have his guide and don’t know everything that goes into any of his metrics. Even if I did, I doubt that I have sufficient training in statistics to make an informed evaluation.
The point is, however, that you are similarly uninformed. Yet, you somehow feel qualified to dismiss Joyner’s overall analysis and conclusions because you believe you see a flaw in a single metric (even though you are not fully informed as to what goes into the metric) that forms only a part of that analysis and contributes only partially to those conclusions.
Specifically, with regards to his BDR, Joyner did not merely pull up splits info, do some simple math on the interception and pass attempt numbers and come up with a ratio. He watched the game tapes and assigned values to each play. It’s a deeper and more involved analysis than you are portraying it to be.
The first rule of holes is that you should stop digging when you find yourself in one.
“Specifically, with regards to his BDR, Joyner did not merely pull up splits info, do some simple math on the interception and pass attempt numbers and come up with a ratio. He watched the game tapes and assigned values to each play. It’s a deeper and more involved analysis than you are portraying it to be.”
Sorry Claude, but that’s crap. Based on Joyner’s description of Smith, he says that Smith only made 5 bad decisions, guess how many int’s Smith threw last year. Do you really expect me to believe that the only passes Smith threw that were as he says, intercepted/almost intercepted were the 5 that were? That’s bogus and anyone who watched games last year knows it.
I don’t discredit his numbers because they are accurate, only the assumption that there is some great process involved. I just spent 5 minutes and put the same grid together for Aaron Rodgers just to show how simple it is. I will put it up in a minute.
Jack,
Do you really expect me to believe that the only passes Smith threw that were as he says, intercepted/almost intercepted were the 5 that were?
Not every interception will be classed as a bad decision Jack. Just off the top of my head, the pass he threw to Ginn that bounced off his hands right to a DB would not be classed as a bad decision. As Claude said, he doesn’t just look at stats; he watches the throws on film. Whatever you put up on Rodgers will be based on stats you dig up, not what you’ve watched. That’s the difference here.
Rocket,
I generally respect your comments, but this one is weak.
Here is the same breakdown on Rodgers that Joyner did for Smith. If you want to prove me wrong please waste your money on the guide and show me up.
Att YPA Comp Bad Dec BDA% % of Att
Short 219 6.8 74 4 1.8 44
Medium 128 11.2 57.8 1 0.7 25
Deep 37 17.9 51.4 1 2.7 8
Bomb 20 28 55 0 0 4
Other 93 5.7 81.8 0 0 19
Vert 185 12.9 56.8 2 1 37
Stretch 57 17 52.6 1 1.7 11
@Jack:
You assume, but have no evidence, that the five bad decisions identified by Joyner were Smith’s interceptions. If you consider that the interception in the regular season Giant’s game was not a bad decision, but rather a well-thrown pass to a wide open Ted Ginn, who let the pass bounce off of his hands, it is highly doubtful that the pass was included in Joyner’s list of bad decisions.
Your attempt to discredit Joyner is based upon one uninformed assumption after another. Even though you don’t know what goes into the metric, you are absolutely certain it is wrong. You are criticizing something you don’t know about (hat tip to Steve Martin) and in the end, the only person you have discredited is yourself.
As I said Claude, spend the money on the guide and then come back and prove me wrong. Until you or someone else on here does that nothing that I am asserting can be discredited.
Everything on that list comes straight from crunching split numbers, which would take a considerable amount of time by itself to do for the entire league.
You just don’t like the that someone actually took the time to disagree with your silly link and is backing it up with fact.
Jack,
I respect your opinions most of the time as well, but I think on this you are being short sighted.
How can you do an exact measurement like this without watching every throw? The answer is you can’t, because you don’t know everything that went into the play without watching it.
How many times did Rodgers throw a ball that was nearly picked off but wasn’t? How many times did he put one up for grabs that bounced the right way for him? Stats cannot tell you how a play unfolded, or how it could have turned out had a defensive player not dropped an int., or had it bounce up in the air and caught by a receiver etc. That is why Joyner has a book and is on the ESPN payroll. He puts the time in to study every possibility. It’s not this quick crunching of stats that you are making it out to be.
@all
Not taking any side. I googled “kc joyner bdr”
and after looking at a few link, saw this in a site.
Tony Romo’s BDR.
http://img287.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=086152191_ESPNArticle_TonyRomoisatop_5NFLQB_122_147lo.jpg
I haven’t look at the numbers. Too much on a Fri, LOL, but maybe another reference for your discussion.
@all
Ooops. My bad.
After I look at it. not the BDR chart.
Sorry.
@Jack:
Just about everything you have written on this topic has been discredited because you do not know what you are talking about. You have attacked a metric about which you have incomplete information. You have a displayed a fundamental misunderstanding of how the metric was compiled. You also have tried to pass off unwarranted assumptions as facts.
Given Joyner’s credentials and his body of work, the onus is not on me to “buy his guide and prove [your uninformed criticisms] wrong.” The onus is on you to inform yourself before attacking his metrics.
In light of the foregoing, your attempt to demean me by referring to the article I linked as “silly” is, well, silly.
Claude,
Take a look at the link Albert posted above. In the article Joyner states that Romo’s BDR for the 2011 season was 1.8%. If you take his int total and divide by his attempts total you get 1.9%, so it is off by 1 tenth of 1 percent. You can break it down and twist the numbers any way you would like but those are pretty much the same thing.
Another thing I found interesting in looking up some of the information following AlbertS’ post is that Joyner is on the ESPN payroll. There’s your link as to why Sando chooses to read him.
I go back to my original point though which was, you went looking for someone to discredit md on Smith being a Pro Bowl player in 2011, and this is the only thing you could come up with? A statistics analyst? Can you find one football guy, besides Jim Harbaugh who agrees with Joyner?
I think it’s nice that there is finally one analyst that appreciates Smith.
Even if he is primarily a fantasy football guy. He at least tossed the poor guy a lifeline.
I also think it’s funny how Joyner is considered a genius by the Smither crowd while Cosell, Jaws, Dilfer, Football Outsiders, PFF and, well, most other analysts are idiots.
@msclemons:
So many mischaracterizations (it’s a pattern with you), so little time to refute them all. But I will try.
Joyner isn’t primarily a fantasy football guy. He’s primarily a metrics guy. That his metrics have application to fantasy football doesn’t change that fact, except perhaps for those prone to facile arguments.
From what I have read, no one has called Joyner a genius. Correcting uninformed criticisms of his work is not the same thing as labeling him a genius. I am not surprised that you cannot tell the difference, however. You also mistakenly think that correcting uninformed criticisms of Alex Smith is the same thing as arguing that Smith is elite.
As for your selectively-chosen list of analysts and their evaluations of Smith, I note the following.
Cosell: He’s not impressed. I disagree with much of what he says, but I acknowledge that he is not a fan.
Dilfer: I couldn’t find any recent quotes/analysis from Dilfer. I do remember that he had Smith in a grouping of 7 QBs in the 14-20 range. I can’t say that I know what his opinion of Smith is.
As for the others:
Jaworski:
Ranks Smith as 16th best QB in NFL and wrote the following:
He throws with excellent touch and consistent accuracy.
I was really impressed with Smith in the playoff win against the Saints. He read the blitz, he was decisive and accurate. He pulled the trigger on the tight-window throws.
He’s not the most physically gifted and talented thrower in the league, but he played at a very high level in 2011, and I expect the same in 2012.
PFF:
Ranked Smith in the Top Ten of NFL QBs, but I could not find his precise number within the top ten. Wrote the following:
Last season (2010), Smith was our 32nd-ranked starter with a PFF passing grade of -10.2, but this season (2011) he has actually climbed his way into the Top 10, with a grade of +14.2.
[In2011, ]Smith earned the third-highest regular season Accuracy Percentage at 75.1%.
Football Outsiders:
Ranked Smith 13th in DYAR and 14th in DVOA.
With the exception of Cosell, I’d say those evaluations are much closer to my stated opinions of Alex Smith than they are to yours. I also note that Smith ranked 9th in the NFL’s official passer rating, which you conveniently ignore/dismiss.
The oft-repeated assertion that many commenters on this blog are overrating Alex Smith is a canard. More commenters give him too little credit for the team’s 2011 success than give him too much.
Claude,
Do you agree with Jaworski’s assessment of Smith?
@Claude, none of those analysts put Smith at a pro bowl level which was the entire point of this thread. This started with someone (MD? Jack? It’s a big ass thread) stating that no one thinks Alex is a top 10 QB other than the Smithers. You managed to find the one guy who does.
1) Joyner writes most of his articles on ESPN about fantasy football. That’s his gig there – if he does metrics on the side more power to him.
2) Jaws ranking him at 16 is dead on in my opinion and you are correct that Dilfer had him in the same range. FO has Alex in the same “average” category.
3) PFF did NOT have Smith in the top 10 – that is either an outright lie or you can’t read. His final grade for the season was +11.2, not +14.7. In fact, PFF argued rather emphatically that Miami should stick with Moore (Matt Moore!) over Smith: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/03/19/matt-moore-worth-sticking-with/ “I can’t quite believe the Dolphins think that Alex Smith represents an upgrade.”
Perhaps you selected a certain week?
Point being – Joyner says Alex should be in the pro bowl and you and Rocket start raving about great his analysis is. By nearly every analysis except Joyner’s Alex is the Mendoza line for NFL QBs (QBs above him are good, QBs below him are bad). That is not a pro bowl QB. That’s just adequate.
@Jack:
I’m not big on ranking players because it seems artificial to line them up linearly. I tend to place the QBs in groups and not try to spend too much time trying to figure out rankings within each group, e.g., which guys is 11th, which guy is 12th, etc. That said, I probably rate Smith higher than Jaws.
Off the top of my head, I would break down NFL QBs in the following groups:
Elite, in no particular order:
Rodgers
Brees
Brady
E. Manning
P. Manning (if healthy)
Second Tier, in no particular order after Big Ben:
Roethlisberger
Romo (but his playoff choking and seeming inconsistency make me uneasy about ranking him in this group, but he does some impressive things)
Rivers (but I have the impression that he comes up smaller in big games; don’t know if my impression is justified)
Stafford (I probably should wait for him to prove it on a sustained basis, but when healthy, he seems to be really good)
Third Tier, in no particular order:
Alex Smith
Michael Vick
Jay Cutler
Matt Ryan
Cam Newton
Josh Freeman
Carson Palmer
Joe Flacco
Matt Schaub
Andy Dalton
I have Smith somewhere between 10 and 19. I think those QBs have different strengths, weaknesses, and questions such that it is difficult for me to say with certainty that one is much better than any other.
Claude,
Thanks for the rating stuff, I agree. I guess my question was unclear, do you agree with the take on Alex from Jaworski that you put in the comment?
@msclemons:
I don’t lie, and I can read:
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/12/why-the-49ers-can%E2%80%99t-win-on-saturday/
Perhaps the writers/editors at PFF should call a meeting to get on the same page.
Three other corrections:
1. This thread is not about whether Smith is a Pro Bowl QB. It’s a continuation of of a discussion about whether Smith and the offense deserve any credit for last year’s success. In the course of arguing that Smith deserved no real credit, ninermd said that no one other than the “Smithers” values Smith very high. I read ninermd’s challenge minutes after reading the Sando article to which I cited. The timing was too perfect to ignore.
2. Joyner may write a lot of fantasy football pieces for ESPN because that is what meat heads like to read, but his main gig is watching game tape and developing football metrics. He has published two books on the subject, neither of which focuses on fantasy football. It’s by no means his “side” gig.
3. No one raved about Joyner’s work. We merely responded to Jack’s uninformed raving against it. That seems pretty clear from the comments we posted. Why do you insist on mischaracterizing what other people write?
@Jack:
Most of it, but without knowing what he means by “not the most physically gifted and talented thrower in the league,” I can’t be sure.
I also think Smith’s second year in Harbaugh’s offense and a complete offseason will smooth out a lot of wrinkles in Smith’s game.
Oops. Sorry Claude, you weren’t lying about PFFs grade – you were looking at a different spot than I was. Alex’ overall grade was 11.2 and out of the top 10 (14th) but his “weighted” grade was 14.7 and #8 overall.
Mea culpa.
It’s interesting that in PFF’s grading scale the three games Smithers cling to the most – Lions, Eagles Saints – they grade average (.5) for the Saints and below average for the Lions and Eagles (-1.7, -1.2). In the NFCCG they grade him as horrific (-4.6).
In contrast – Alex’ highest grade (5.1) is for a game that looked rather average when I watched – the 2nd meeting with the Seahawks (19-17 win).
How does the Saints game rate an average while the Seahawks game gets a season’s best grade?
This is sort of fun – it’s $.99 for a week. Some other notables in league rankings (by position):
Crabtree 17th
Gore 47th
Staley 32nd
Anthony Davis 57th
Iupati 11th
C.J. Spillman (Special Teams) 51st, sorry Grant
Justin Smith #1 (PFF is awesome)
Aldon Smith 2nd
Willis 3rd
Bowman #1 (!!!)
Rogers 11th (screw you PFF)
Whitner 6th
Goldson 69th (that is not a typo)
Akers #1
Andy Lee #2 (screw you again PFF)
Ted Ginn (and his family, at KR) 5th
Claude,
Your Jaworski take is interesting considering you don’t like Cosell and he worked closely with Jaws in putting those together.
As for my “uninformed rave” against Joyner it might help if you actually looked at the numbers. I am not “raving” against their validity, only that all he is doing regarding with these QB breakdowns is crunching split stats, check out the vert and stretch numbers he is coming up with. It is quite simple really, they are just totals for separate intervals being grouped together and given a cool name to make the discussion easier.
As for the Bad Decision Ratio, it sure seems like a complete waste of time to watch every throw and make a subjective assessment to only have a 1 tenth of 1 percent difference from just dividing the totals but whatever.
You can do the exercise as I have stated and come up with the same Top 5 in BDR for 2011 hat he states in the article here:
http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2012/05/15/kc-joyner-says-tony-romo-is-a-top-5-quarterback/
Funny Claude, because I knew its been arounf for decades. I say media made up, because the average dummy looks at it and measures the skills of a QB. Which it provides NO details of how good they really are in situational and game time decisions. If that “stat” told everything. Smith wouldnt of been coming back from Miami or leaving SF. Do you get it now Claude. Like I said dispute the FACT that Smith was bad at 3rd% and Redzone% and led a below average passing attack. 27TH Claude. QBR means squat. Is Romo a superbowl winner? Sh***** he cant win a playoff game. And yet he’s always up there with the old QBR. That stat is a JOKE! Funny that Claude!
@md
I was saying the injuries had a down effect on the offense. And because most of the injuries were of pass catchers’, it affected lots of the offensive stats too. Don’t say injuries are excuses.
AS was Plan A, and AS was in Plan B w/ Manning, if he signed.
Baalke was not all in w/ Manning with good reasons. That’s all I’m gonna write about it.
I’m not saying AS doesn’t deserve some blames. Just look a bit deeper to find other factors too. 27th ranked passing is all YOU need to see? Alex/ Offense rode coattails? I disagree.
Give Alex a chance to prove himself and excited about the coming season? Double Somersault. LOL
Even if Smith was the worst starting QB in the league. You cant rank a long snapper as a better football player. The simple fact that a guy plays QB in the NFL makes him a better football player than a long snapper. That is the point. If we are talking about best at their position, (aka gunners and long snappers) then why aren’t we talking about the best bench warmers? I know that what I am saying now sounds ridiculous, but it is simply evidence of how pathetic this blog post was.
In Fact…. If you are going to use the logic on this thread, then Jennings should be number 2 or 3 on our team. He is the best in the NFL at his position and only Willis and (Justin) Smith can enter that argument.
This whole thread is a bit creepy and what is a cat molester???
There is no dispute that Jennings is good/great at his job. No one is saying Alex or Crabs are great but this type of ranking has zero creedence and only Grants homies pay it any creedence. I like most of what Grant writes about. But sometimes he goes over the deep end. This is one that sunk.
I’m so mad that Alex is ranked behind Bruce miller. I’m never talking to anyone ever again. Oh wait I don’t care. Good article. Thanks for helping to pass the long offseason.
:)
This entire article comes over as a slant against AS.
To have Jennings and Miller ranked higher than Alex is seems askewed.
Grant, for a measure of fair play why not post the players with most value to the teams success in 2012. This would give us a clearer picture of the players worth.
Smith simply isn’t as good at this point as some of you guys try to make him out to be. He isn’t the reason the team went 13-3, the defense and special teams are. The offense simply wasn’t very good, especially on third downs and in the red zone. If he improves this year as I expect him to, then this team should win the Super Bowl. If he doesn’t improve, they will probably be “evaluating” FA QB’s again next year. I believe Harbaugh could get similiar results from quite a few QB’s. Smith needs to show that he can make the players around him better. That is what great players do, that is what makes them so valuable. I’m hoping that Smith can take that step this year.
Big P,
My contention throughout the ranking has been that had AS been injured last season, I don’t feel that we would have finished with a 14-4 record.
I’m not one the fans that give AS almost all the credit for last years success. I will be, and have been an ardent promoter that it was the D and ST’ that deserve most of the credit.
But AS did exactly what Harbaugh needed him to do. Play mistake-free football, and control the offense in a way that the defense is not put in precarious situations.
With all due respect, CK and Tolz weren’t ready for that responsibility.
That is why I feel that this ‘best player ranking’ comes over as a slant against AS.
I would like to see a ‘most valuable player ranking’ to the teams 2012 success. This will give us a better picture of the players ranking.
Smith simply isn’t as good at this point as some of you guys try to make him out to be.
Depends on who “some of you guys” are. One thing I know for certain is that he is much better at this point than you try to make him out to be.
He isn’t the reason the team went 13-3, the defense and special teams are.
So you are saying that Smith played no part in the team’s success last year? That’s absurd.
AES,
It’s a best player ranking, Grant already said he would rate Smith much higher in a value to the team ranking. I think Smith should be higher on the list, but I don’t see it as a slap at him. Like you said, “But AS did exactly what Harbaugh needed him to do. Play mistake-free football, and control the offense in a way that the defense is not put in precarious situations.” I agree with that, but at the end of the day the coaching staff thought that was the best way to manage Smith as well. I know Smith is valuable, he is our QB. It’s the most important position on the field. If he can make the leap that the team needs of him (2nd year in system, more talent) this year he will be ranked much higher in the most valuable to team and best player rankings next year. I believe he can do it, I want to see it.
I see it as AlbertS states above, the offense was depleted most of the year (BEdwards, DWalker, JMorgan, FGore, TGinn, etc). Obviously JH saw it the same way which is the reason he made the offense a priority by upgrading both the WR and RB positions via FA and the draft this offseason. The defense and ST didn’t have any major injuries in 2011 but many neglect that fact. Call it managing or working with what you have on the field on offense, which was very limited, especially in the NYG Championship game.
But of course, the AS blamers don’t always use facts as a basis of their dislike. lol
*Excuse me, regarding ST injuries…TGinn played on ST and KW covered his duties during the playoff games obviously*
But much later in the year than the others I mentioned above.
“But of course, the AS blamers don’t always use facts as a basis of their dislike. lol”
When Smith makes a good play, I say so. When he makes a bad play, I say so. When Smith makes a good play, you babble on for ten minutes. When he makes a bad play, you say nothing. When I said I expected Smith to be back and play better, but that Harbaugh would upgrade the position if the opportunity presented itself, you agreed with me. When the opportunity presented itself, you said you would rather have Kaepernick than Manning. Lmao.
“When the opportunity presented itself, you said you would rather have Kaepernick than Manning. Lmao.”
BigP, you always leave off the reason why I stated that comment regarding PM in the first place. I don’t want to have to rebuild after two years of a previously injured PM running the team. In all of that winning for Indy, he’s won *only* one Superbowl – there are no guarantees regardless of what some here think. If JH starts AS or CK, there will be continuity and winning for 10+ years. PM would have been a short term fix at best. BTW, did you see the poll of Broncos fans recently? Most wanted the team to keep TTebow based on his playoff appearance and upside.
Additionally, you took my comment as pointed specifically at you – it wasn’t. I was speaking to all of the blamers. And yes, I agree with you, AS will be better with the talent upgrades added this offseason.
Who are the blamers Hofer?
It would not have been rebuilding, they would have passed the baton. The more important thing regarding Kapernick over Manning is the fact that C.K. obviously isn’t ready to start at this point in his career. He needs more development, why would you rush that? Just because he’s home grown? That makes no sense and is magnified by the fact that Smith was put on the field way too soon in his career. We have a Super Bowl roster now.
Jack, I’ll answer that one when you finally answer my question from over a month ago regarding your definition and who the “Smithers” are here on the blog. I can’t believe you have the guts to ask me that question when you wouldn’t answer my question but so be it. You are a mainstay here and I do like *some* of your comments. lol
Not guts Hofer : )
oneniner
DS
Prime Time
FDM
undercenter (self proclaimed : ))
Hofer, and probably a few others if I really had to think about it.
LOL
I’ll answer in about a month…
The idea that the offense was ranked so low because of Smith alone doesn’t hold water with me.
At the start of the season we had an unproven O-Line, unproven Wide Receivers, a rookie Full Back who was a DE in college, and of course a much maligned QB, these are ALL reasons that Harbaugh was so conservative, and why the O ranked in the bottom half of the league, Add the lack of an off season and you complete the picture.
Was the D the driving force behind last years success? Yes without doubt, but to use that as a detriment to the O is unfair, the offense was NEVER going to be given the opportunity to be the driving force, All the pieces were in place for the D to be dominant, Aldon came along and provided the impact play that lifted them to another level, and Navorro was a massively pleasant surprise too. Smartly Harbaugh realised that he could ride the Defense to a win on many occasions, but lo and behold there were times that the D needed bailing out, (Detroit, Philadelphia, New Orleans for example) and the O did just that, not just Alex either, many players did their jobs and pulled out the win when the D wasn’t dominating.
Bottom line, to say that there is one over-riding reason for the 49ers success last year is short sighted and just plain provocative! Deliberately? probably.
@ Jack
Hofer said I’ll answer that one when you finally answer my question and then backed off.
He must be a politician :)
LOL. You won’t answer Hofer. You answering would be completely against your nature : )
Nick,
Welcher67 has a nice ring to it, LOL!
Nick, you missed the point. The great Jack took over a month to answer my question, so in turn I’ll answer his question in a month.
Jack, good try – I’m not biting!! Keep trying though, more substance than most of your comments. lol
Hofer, err Welcher67
I never said i would do something and then backed out. Nice try.
How I miss Eric Branch, whose style, intelligence and discretion should have been a standard for Grant. I suppose its pointless to continue to point out what others pointed out–the arbitrariness and illogic of the rating system (as someone pointed out, Lee is the best or near best punter in the NFL, so shouldn’t he be 3rd? Neither Aldon Smith or Brooks are on the same level vis a vis their peers, so why isn’t Lee ranked ahead,etc.) No doubt Grant’s supporters are willing to hold their nose at his wretched postings simply because he supports their Smith hatred. If this lazy and childish journalist were one day to switch to a more pro-AS stance, most of them would find him just intolerable as his critics.
You don’t have to miss EB he’s over at the Chron. GC has written his fair share of good articles here but this isn’t one of them. MM, EB, and GC have different styles each bringing their “best” quality to the Inside blog so we can continue to discuss, debate, wholeheartedly agree, or disagree. All good!!
Aldon Smith set the record for sacks per snap played last season. Andy Lee is about as good as Shane Lechler. I stand by my rankings, thank you very much.
Shane Lechler is a Raider and therefore doesn’t count.
Andy Lee is better anyway.
The way I see things, Alex Smith is capable of leading the 49ers to a Super Bowl – and not simply because the team was maybe a series away from being there in 2011. While it may seem downright unfair, I believe in Alex Smith because of how Jim Harbaugh has been able to mold him. I trust in Smith because I trust in Harbaugh and that alone says a lot about how much Smith has to prove this season
Hofer, I know Eric is at the Chron. but I thought the more open nature of this site was a better fit.
As for Grant, you are generous to him. Honestly, the average quality of his articles is pretty low. For every one that is passable (his reports on the last Niner practices), there are three are four that are thoughtless and controversy mongering. I like coming here to read the comments, but ideally you want the head blogger to be someone who either writes in an incisive and lively fashion and/or whose wisdom and knowledge your respect. Does Grant have any of these qualities? Honestly, I have never read a blog where the comments of readers are more interesting and convincing than those of the guy who runs it. I supposed if annoyance was my preferred stimulant, I might return to this site, but it’s now at the bottom of my list.
Player rankings are silly lets talk about a real football topic:
Which is a bigger accomplishment; Winning a SuperBowl or becoming a member of the HoF. LT says HoF and Bruschi says SuperBowl. I guess that might have something to do with Bruschi having won a SB and LT is a first ballot HoF’r /shrug. But anyway the questions still stands?
I say becoming a member of the HoF is a bigger accomplishment simply based on the numbers. Add up the number of players of the years that have earned a SB ring versus the numer that have bronze busts and you’ll see that just about anyone can earn a SB victory but only the best of the best get their heads put in Canton.
Hell even the third string QB that never suited up for a single game gets a ring if he’s on the team and that’s supposed to be equal to being put into the hall of fame? I dont think so.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/28/for-bruschi-choice-between-super-bowl-ring-and-hof-is-a-no-brainer/
Ross Tucker was talking about this on the Football Today podcast. By his own admission he was a very average NFL player. He basically said there were hundreds of guys with S.B. rings that he was better then, while only the truly great players are in the H.O.F. He said the experience of winning a S.B. would have been great, but that the H.O.F. would speak more to your ability as a player.
I agree. I believe winning the SB is a matter of the stars aligning for one season, where as the HOF is about rising above your peers on the standard of your entire career. It is the culmination of many years training, sacrificing, and battling to accomplish.
Games are sometimes decided by the bounce of a ball, the error of a referee, or a gust of wind that takes a kick wide right. The HOF corrects all of those acts of fate and rewards true domination on the field. By far, the HOF is a higher accomplishment. -the waterboy gets a superbowl ring…
I hope Bruschi gets backlash for trying to turn it into players that want to be in the HoF are selfish and only thinking of themselves rather then the team. Total meat head suggestion especially coming from someone who’s won a SB and isn’t going to be in the HoF.
You don’t see players trying to ebay their HoF bust when times get tough ;)
Lol, “What do you mean I can’t take it with me?”
“Umm, excuse me but I have an ebay receipt for that guys head, can one of the guards help me get it into my hatchback?”
“Tell security to keep an eye on Lawrence Taylor, he looks like he’s going in for one last sack.”
I think winning the SB should be the ultimate goal not the HOF. Both are hard to achieve, but the HOF is a singular achievement; the SB is a team one. LT is trying to justify not winning a SB by saying he achieved something better with being a slam dunk HOFer. I disagree. I’ve heard numerous players say they’d give up all the individual honors for a SB ring. That is the pinnacle of the sport. It’s why you play. Everything else is secondary.
The only players that take the SB over the HoF are ones that know they never have a chance to be elected. The players that have won both or are only in the hall never talk about trading it for a SB ring. Ring means you were better then only the players in that season but being in the hall means you were better then all of them through all seasons, cant compare the two.
I’ve never heard a player say he would give up a SB ring for personal glory Hank. I have heard many players say they’d give up personal accomplishments for a SB ring though.
Big P,
I know that Grant has set this up as a ‘best player ranking’ but to say that players like Jennings and B.Miller rank ahead of AS loses total credibility.
Are they better at their positions? Yes. But are they better players than AS? Absolutely not.
This type of ranking only works to leave an obscure view of the players true value to the team.
That is why I’m asking Grant to set up a ‘players with the most value’ ranking because I believe this gives us a better perspective of the players importance and worth to the teams immediate success.
This type of ranking may not necessarily give AS a higher rating, but at least we will see his true value which is a more fair and balanced view IMO.
AES, you have been fair and balanced in your reads regarding all of the team players (especially MC and AS) very similar to Adam and Rocket. I agree with your assessment.
I did say that I thought he should have been ranked higher in the player rankings, I’m not denying that. The QB is the most important position on the field. His value to the team ranking would be very high, if not #1. That goes for most teams with established starters at QB. His level of play is not elite though, and this team has a lot of talent at other positions that are elite or on the cusp of becoming elite. Hopefully Smith can join that group, I’ll be happy if he does.
I totally agree with your assessment Big P. Until Jennings and B.Miller get a higher rating then AS.
As I said yesterday, I’m not an AS apologist. I don’t make excuses for him or blame other areas of the team for his shortcomings.
But having these two players rank ahead of AS is ludicrous. Even as an unofficial ranking just to present blog fodder before training camp, these two being placed ahead of AS comes over as a clear ‘dig’ at AS.
Do I love AS? No. Was I excited about the PM possibility? Yes.
Nonetheless, he deserves much better than this.
The thing I like about Grant is that he’ll respond to comments. No matter if you agree or disagree with him, you have to give him that much credit. Barrows will, too, but it is a rare occurance to see Lynch or Branch interact with posters. Thumbs up for Grant’s availability to us.
Hey Grant,
Some of these are just idiots. Team rankings are subjective at best. You do not not have to defend your oppinion.
I do not agree with you allot, but I do enjoy reading your articles.
God Bless
Larry says:
June 28, 2012 at 2:28 pm
Hey Grant,
“Some of these are just idiots. Team rankings are subjective at best. You do not not have to defend your oppinion.
I do not agree with you allot, but I do enjoy reading your articles.
God Bless”
Larry,
Calling people ‘idiots’ and using a ‘God Bless’ in the same context seems like an oxymoron, but I get your gist (lol).
But keep in mind that Grant is not presenting a ‘team ranking’ but rather ‘player ranking.’ Every NFL sports and media analyst will provide team rankings both now and throughout the season. But this is completely different for a number of reasons.
1. It pits a player with a particular skill at one position against a player who plays a different one. i.e. Jennings better then AS.
2. It devalues a players overall importance to the team.
3. Tied to points 1 and 2. The best players should make the biggest contributions. Not having AS in the top 10, is saying that he made a small contribution to the teams 2011 success.
Bulletin Board Material:
Teddy Brusci just picked the Seattle Seahawks to win the NFC West on NFL32.
There goes Brusci’s credibility
Tuna – There’s no valid logic behind Bruschi’s lame prediction. He’s pals with Pete Carroll and he doesn’t like Jim Harbaugh’s brother John.
That snake Pete Carroll helped get Bruschi more get more playing time during his early years with the Patriots and Bruschi is still upset with John Harbaugh’s spygate comments.
John Harbaugh said “no matter whether those things (spygate) had any impact on whether they won their championships or not, they got asterisks now.”
What’s really interesting to me, is Carroll is doing the same thing he did in previous stints as a HC in the NFL. He was always an 7-9 win Coach and that’s exactly what he’s done in Seattle. Carroll has another year, maybe two to get it going or he’s going back to College.
I have the Cards in second , Hawks in third, Carrol is the fourth best coach in the divinson.