Let’s rank the Niners best players. Since we’re killing time before training camp, this is the kind of mind doodling we do.
I already wrote a blog on the top five Niners. I ranked them like this: 1. Justin Smith 2. Patrick Willis 3. Aldon Smith 4. Vernon Davis 5. NaVorro Bowman.
In a way the next five are more interesting than the top five because they’re less obvious. You don’t have to be a genius to say that Patrick Willis, Justin Smith and Vernon Davis are three of the best players on the team. Those players are great. It’s the next five that are a little less clear. Who are they?
Let’s play the game.
These are who I think they are and why. I’d love to read what you think
6. Carlos Rogers, CB – Pro Bowler and Associated Press Second-Team All Pro in 2011. Six interceptions. Ninth best “success rate” (explained here) of all NFL cornerbacks. Covered slot receivers man-to-man with no safety help in sub-packages (about half of his snaps) – the toughest job in the Niners secondary. The most valuable and versatile defensive back on the team.
7. Ahmad Brooks, OLB – Played more than 90 percent of the defensive snaps last season. Excelled at rushing the quarterback and stuffing the run. Recorded 50 tackles, seven sacks, 15 QB hits and 46 QB pressures (third best on the team). A key cog on the Niners top-notch defensive front seven.
8. Ray McDonald, DL – Another key member of the Niners front seven, and a big reason the defense ranked No. 1 against the run by almost 20 yards per game (San Francisco allowed 75.4 rushing yards per game, No. 2 Houston allowed 94.4). McDonald was also a good pass rusher, notching 5.5 sacks in the regular season, and 2.5 in the NFC Championship Game against the New York Giants.
9. David Akers, K – Set the NFL record for field goals in a season with 44 in 2011. Set the franchise record for total points scored with 166. Earned his sixth Pro Bowl appearance and second AP First-Team All Pro selection. Was one of the biggest reasons the Niners had the No. 9 scoring offense in the NFL, considering they ranked 18th in offensive touchdowns scored (2.1 per game).
10. Andy Lee, P – Set a single-season NFL record in 2011 with a 44.0 net yards punting average. Earned his third Pro Bowl appearance and second AP First-Team All Pro selection. Won the Pro Football Writers of America Golden Toe Award for the best kicker or punter in the NFL. Saved the Niners from having to defend short fields by consistently pinning the other team deep in their own territory with booming, accurate punts.
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Kinda hard to justify a top 10 with only 1 player from the offense. On the other hand the parity between our offense and defense somewhat lends to it. I am torn.
Staley needs to be there. Ray and Brooks seem a bit high. 7 sacks is no more impressive than over 1,000 yards rushing. If you are looking simply at how good someone is at his position, then Lee should be about 6.
Kind of hard not to laugh at a top ten that does not include Frank Gore.
Ridiculous.
if you’re talking about alex smith hes not on there so you’re an idiot and learn to read
You should take your own advice and not point fingers at anyone until you have a firm grasp on the English language.
“…far enough to be able to produce a list that I would be happy submitting.”
Gotta love when Trolls ironically Troll themselves. ROTMFFLMMFAO! xD
This was for bayallday by the way. Sheer genius pointing out that Alex Smith wasn’t on the list. ;P
dude ur and idiot because he lead our team to the super bowl if it wasnt for back to back fumbles so quit hatin and jump on the gravey train homie#WEGETTIN6
the parity between our offense and defense?
Are you freakin’ nuts? The Niners had a top 5 Defense and a 26th ranked Offense.
However, I agree with you on the exclusion of Gore from the top 10.
One more point, McDonald is slightly overrated and Soap is way underrated.
Incorrect Nick. The Niners had the 11th ranked scoring offense. This mythical number in the 20′s you guys keep pulling out is hilarious. Passing yards are not a gauge on how effective the offense was. The Niner offense was effective when it needed to be most of the time and also played very conservatively early in games when they had a lead. You can keep saying it however many times you like and you will continue to be wrong because you are putting way too much emphasis on passing yards.
Offense is about scoring and controlling the ball to keep your defense off the field. The Niners were 11th in scoring and 5th in time of possession. You don’t win 14 games if your offense sucks like you want to pass off. The truth is, the offense complimented the defense and ST’s by playing a ball control, run oriented system that didn’t put the defense in bad position and kept the clock moving. When they had to they could go to a passing oriented system but that wasn’t the preferred method of offense last year because the team was best when getting a lead and protecting it.
Now if you want to talk about the lack of effectiveness in the Redzone, 3rd down and turning more FG’s into TD’s, then I’m right there with you. These are areas that need to improve in a big way. However you are categorically wrong in believing this was the 26th best offense in the league.
Look who’s throwing the ball in our offense. Put a real QB in there and watch players on our O show up on this list.
Thanks for the Stooge-level analysis
Really… who? Crabtree (hands of stone, bad attitude), Williams, Ginn, Hastings? Perhaps you were referring to Swain or Dixon? More likely Walker, but, that’s right, he was out much of the year. Go away…
..and yet who’s been getting the ball to VD so he could turn into a premier TE… and as much as Vernon has improved his catching abilities, we all know he doesn’t possess the ‘hands’ of a WR. Looks to me like the guy throwing the ball can do a decent job when the receivers do theirs. …… Liked Shemp the least out of the 5 too.
Uhh, where is Frank Gore brah?
Frank gore isn’t a top ten player. He is constantly caught from behind. He’s washed up.
Lol, he’s washed up after a 1200 yard season? Uhh, right. He never had top end speed since his injuries in college. C’mon guy.
He’s been getting caught from behind his whole career. He’s never had great breakaway speed. I couldn’t possibly put Ahmad Brooks and Ray McDonald ahead of Frank.
I’d much rather have a running back that gets caught from behind, than a running back that can’t even get past the opponents front line to begin with. Frank is a great back.
Key Word is ‘from behind’ in this situation. Most other backs get caught ‘from behind’ the line of scrimage.
Agree…. this list is bogus without him. And seriously, Aldon Smith ahead of Vernon Davis.
Jr. has gone too far this time. lol
like
oh you should rank you top 10 favorite colors too. lame
Cohn can just state an opion that usually comes out of left field instead of giving good observational reports like any of the other 49er beat writers that are alot better. Cohn, your not your father so quit trying to write like he does!!!!
enjoyable read… Love to see kicking specialists in the top ten. They were a HUGE part of the niners success last season.
They really were tho… We had the ST unit in the league! Top 5 in Starting Team and Opponent field position.
Really? Where is Frank Gore is right.
Andy Lee should be higher. Number six at least. Field position wins games. Andy Lee was good for flipping two or three “L”s to “W”s last year.
McDonald is better than Brooks and Rogers IMHO. It’s just that Justin Smith’s Supernova glare obscures how well he played last year. I fully concur that Justin was one of the top 3 players in the NFL last year.
As for Gore, he might only be in the 11-15 range at this point. Partly he has slipped a little, partly the rest of the roster is just terrifically stronger than it used to be. Never a bad problem to have.
Willis is easily our best player. What world are you living in? Our kickers are great kickers, but before gore and staley? C’mon…
Dude, relax….. your talking about a guy who rates Andy Lee higher than Frank Gore.
ROFL
11-20: Gore, Sopoaga, T. Brown, Whitner, Staley, Alex Smith, Bruce Miller, Iupati, Goldson, A. Davis.
Iupati could move up quickly. So could Davis if he builds on his late season progress. Goldson has top ten flash and sizzle, but goes for too many kill shots and forgets his fundamentals.
Bruce Miller in the top 20 is a bold move. Not sure I agree with that one even though I like him a lot.
Well, he did get picked as a Pro Bowl alternate as a rookie. So someone other than me must be impressed with him. :)
I disagree with the “Where’s Frank Gore on this list?” cries. This list is spot-on. If we were talking top 12 best 49ers, Gore would be 11 or 12. Don’t get me wrong, love the guy, but too many dropped passes this season and long stretches of ineffectiveness (play-calling or physical wear-down, who knows?). It’s just a shame that the 49ers return to relevance wasn’t better aligned with Gore’s prime years. Here’s hoping he’s got a couple good ones left.
Frank Gore won’t be back after this season. It was a mistake not to trade him last season when he still had some worth…He wasn’t a game changer last season and really wouldn’t have been missed. We could have used another 1st round selection in this year’s draft.
You would not get a first round pick for Gore and # 2 we didnot have a back that would take his placelast year, I believe he will have a good season this year, playing less he will be more effective. Gore three year deal was perfect for the niners, also he had some great games last year as well.
Dude your eyes must be washed up. Frank Gore was one of the top backs in the league last year. Had 5 straight games with 100 plus yards. You knock him for his speed and say he’s washed up because he gets caught from behind. He never had homerun speed. I guess he must have been washed up since entering the league. -__-
I guess he wasn’t an elite back by your own admission since he wasn’t worth a number one pick. I remember the days of Barry Sanders who had much the same team that Frank Gore played on. There weren’t any standouts who could take the pressure of Barry.
The same is true of Frank Gore. The difference being their production. Frank Gore’s numbers are a reflection of a powerful defense who kept the opponents on the field. If you think last season was the first year the 49ers had a premier D, you missed a lot more than the quit in Gore.
The D has been in tact since 2002. The problem being that they play the equivalent of 3 seasons in one because the offense has never been able to move the ball or keep them off the field.
Frank Gore is not a top ten back. He isn’t a bottom ten back either. He has talent and I am not taking that from him. I am merely saying that he is not top 10 elite on a team stacked with talent.
He falls around 17th in the middle of the pack. He is better than Watters ever was, but he isn’t James, Folk, LT, Barry, Emmit, or any othe rback who actually WON games for his team on his own. The 49ers simply aren’t built that way and frankly don’t play that way. Gore is a success because of the style of football the 49ers play. He is not a success because of his speed, ability, or the ability to make people miss. He has none of those on an elite level.
Wow. It’s sort of interesting to see such hate for Gore. Now I know how Smithers feel whenever they read any NFL news.
Frank Gore’s peers rank him as one of the best players in the league. National football writers rank Gore as one of the best players in the game. The local writers rank Gore as one of the best running backs in the league.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a credible football source claim Gore was anything other than a top back in the league. Did Gore fail to sign an autograph for you Jason? Did his success offend you? You seem bitter.
Gore is the best blocking rb in the league. Watch how many times he saves the qb from getting smashed. He’s a thousand yard rusher and he catches lots of passes. Give his old legs a rest with James and Hunter and he will perform at a high level but the stats won’t be there. It’s not fantasy football it’s a team sport. In the end only W’s count
If Akers and Lee are #’s 9 & 10 Brian Jennings is obviously number 11 : )
Without Andy Lee last year, we would have finished 10-6.
Randy Moss has the talent to immediately push into the top five, if he wants to. Crabs probably has top ten talent but his results have been thoroughly mediocre, and needs to show something this year. Both are question marks of a sort – we have not even seen Moss in pads yet – so I left them out.
DAMN IT!!!!!!!! I DEMAND TO KNOW WHERE ALEX SMITH IS!!!!!!!!
Bad day in Smitherville. AS is 35, Kap 34 and JJ 33.
md,
He’s down in Peru making sure Harbaugh’s nail gun is full….
lol
Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
Help yourself to a nice scotch Jack.
Stop it dude! Just leave well enough alone (lol).
I would agree with most of your ranking orders, but you left off the most valuable player you could not lose to injury before an important game and that would be Alex Smith. Everyone else on your list could be replaced by a 49er substitute and likely the Niners would go on to play to their potential and win the game.
If you lose Alex Smith in the first few minutes against say the Packers this coming season…Do the 49ers still have a good chance of winning the game? I would say NO. I don’t think the Niners can afford to lose Alex to injury this season during an important game and Colin Kaepernick replaces him and leads us to victory. I think there is a significant drop-off between the two. I would almost feel more confident to win the game with Josh Smith as Alex’s back-up than I would Colin. Because of this argument I think you would have to include Alex Smith in the top 5 players on your list.. We could lose Patrick Willis to an early injury against the Packers but with his replacement I am confident we would still have a good chance to win.
Put Colin in for Alex and I’m sorry but the 49ers chances sink like a rock. Thats why I would put Alex as maybe not the 49ers best player but he would be our most valuable player. Plus including a kicker and punter in your top 10 best players was pretty asinine. Also, if you included them in the top ten because of their particular value as players to the 49ers is because their skill-sets leads to the 49ers winning the game then for the same reasons you would have to include Alex as well.
That kicker scored most of our points. And the punter helped out top notch defense. Smith didnt hurt us, thats it. Next year He’ll be on there. Truth, take it or leave it.
Its like this MD, the book entittled “The Criteria and Support of the Ethical Standards of the 21 Century 49er Fan” states in Chapter one that any fan wearing any symbol (JERSYS, hats, t-shirts, etc) of any NFL team other then the 49ers is subjected to severe ridicule, and possible banishment of the right to call himself/herself a 49er fan for one month.
Oh wow in reading further, it said if items were of the Rams and Cowboys symbols, complete discredit and the complete abolisment of the violater from being a Niner fan till death of said violater.
Guess nothing more needs to be said.
The questions is best player, not biggest drop off between starter and back up. Alex Smith is not even remotely close to breaking the top ten.
exactly!!
Who is Josh Smith?
He’s the niners small forward
Haha
He is the fictional ramblings of a Smither.
Lol, the list is for their best players, period. Any team would be in trouble if they lost their starting QB right before an important game, especially the teams that build their offense around their QB. It’s also a very valid point to include both Lee and Akers because they are two of the best in the game. Lee sets up great field position and Akers scores points. Credit doesn’t go to the QB by default, which seams to be your argument.
Credit doesn’t go to the QB by default
Nor does blame, but that doesn’t stop some people from trying.
So sad.
@BigP:
I don’t know that I would say it’s sad that some people mindlessly blame Smith for the team’s failures and refuse to give him any credit for its successes, but I will say that it is a weak-minded analysis.
Claude,
I don’t care what “other/some” people say, maybe you should take it up with them.
I respond to the comments as I read them.
Good, then go argue with the other people that you speak of.
I agree with your list and would add that Mr. Brooks is built thickly and when he hits someone they go down. He was the #1 priority signing IMO.
I believe Anthony Davis will be an All Pro RT this year.
I would not ignore Mr. Whitner and what he added the to the defensive backfield. The hit on the goaline was worth the price of admission.
only someone who agrees with this list believes Anthony Davis will be all pro this year.
hahaha
Where’s your list Timbo? Or are you just a troll? Play the game. Put your name on the line.
I don’t need a list to know that Aldon Smith is not a better player than Vernon Davis at this point in his career.
My list.
1. Patrick Willis (No Brainer)
2. Justin Smith
3. FRANK GORE , has been our best offensive player hands down every season since he’s been drafted. And responsible for more wins than any one else on the roster.
4. Vernon Davis , probably the best blocking TE in the league and know one knows but the guys he’s blocking. Just hope he becomes best friends with the juggs machine this offseason.
5. Aldon Smith , luv this guy.
6. Joe Staley, super athletic LT, how many catches did he have last year?
7. Carlos Rodgers , keep catching those balls.
8. NaVorrow Bowman , luv this guy also.
9. Mike Iupati , a monster!
10. Donte Whitner, example: Pierre Thomas
Honorable Mention, Jim Harbaugh… I guess no coaches on the list.
Now which ten would you rather have.
P.S. kickers don’t count.
reality check here. Frank Gore wasn’t solely responsible for one win in 2011. Our offensive numbers were bad. He was a main part of the lack of production. Ten years ago, being caught from behind would have kicked Frank out of the league. He was talked 75% of last season by being caught from behind. He is about the 17th best player on a team of no names. On this team though he isn’t a top 20. 2012 will prove that point.
*tackled not talked
Those kickers were responsible for half the 49ers wins last year.
Joe Staley…
…
Amen Rappin I agree with you except as much as I like Justin Smith I think he,s a 3 or 4 on the list.
Justin Smith is arguably the best defensive lineman in the league.
Justin is arguably the best defensive PLAYER at any position, and was ranked as such – and #2 behind only Rodgers for ALL NFL players – by Pro Football Focus recently. That’s ahead of all the other standouts – Willis and Ray Lewis and Ed Reed and Mario Williams and Jared Allen and everyone else.
If he is not the best Free Agent acquisition of the post-cap Era, he’s certainly in the conversation.
Jason, did you watch any games? And your math sucks buddy, 75%? Frank Gore played pretty much the whole season, while hurt for some of it. He had 15+ carries in at least 12 games. Lack of production??? Maybe just to Gore… He had over 1200 yards and 8 tds.
And even after all that he still made it to #28 on the players top 100. So I guess they don’t know football either.
Jason you sound like a raider fan.
the top 100? That is a joke. The top 100 ranked Eli Manning 31. He has won 2 superbowls in 5 years. I hate the Giants, but even I am smart enough to know that Eli Manning earned a higher spot than that.
Your argument lies along the same path as the Tony Romo supporters. Stats are skewed to playing style.
You talk like someone who’s career ended at High School. I have played high school, college, and semi pro here locally for the North Bay Rattlers. I can tell you from experience on a higher level that Frank Gore is not elite.
Ohh no, north bay rappers, rattlers, what ever hahahahahahaaa now that’s a joke.
No after school I got a real job.
You’re absolutely correct Jason. NFL players know nothing about playing in the NFL.
@ Jason
So what are you doing since you left the North Bay Rattlers? Skating for the Santa Rosa Homewreckers in the Roller Derby League? Clemons had it right, you’re so far gone you think your opinion is more relevant than the NFL players’. Its OK, you can start the Gore Haters Club.
Pretty soon we’ll have Justin Haters and Patrick Haters on here too I guess. JFC!
Jason does have a point though. The top 100 list voted on by the players has some laugh out loud selections. Players don’t always vote by who they believe is the best player. As we see every year in probowl voting, respect is usually the highest determining factor in who makes it and who doesn’t.
Jason,
I played football for four years in High School and two years of J.C. and that is the stupidest comment I have ever heard. “I can tell you from experience on a higher level that Frank Gore is not elite.” I have friends that played Semi Pro ball, it’s a joke. The jump from J.C. to D-1 is big, and the jump from D-1 to the NFL is astronomical. I have been fortunate to stand on the sidelines during an NFL game and it is eye opening to have an NFL receiver and cornerback run past the sidelines at full speed. They play on another level, pure and simple.
Funny how you tell us what semi-pro team you played for but not the college you played for. If I were going to use my football experience as a means to tell other fans how much more knowledgable I am, I would definately bring up my alma mater and say something like: Go Tigers! I am guessing you came from a small football program not worth mentioning.
Jason that’s just plain stupid- I’ve been a niner fan since John Brodie, Gene Washington, Cedric Hardman and Tommy Hart. I think rappin may have exaggerated a little, and I do emphazie little about the 75% but he was the major part of the offense for years. Yeah those who ranked Gore at 28 don’t know football. You idiot that’s like saying the Pittsburg Squeelers Superbowl teams were better than the 89 49ers. Boy you better check yourself before you wreck yourself. Where is your niner loyalty the St. Louis Hams , the Seattle Sea Squacks or the Arizona Ice Tea Cradles or the Oakland Traders?
I’m thinking Iupati has gotta be above McDonald
great conversation starter…but I’d never take 10 of our current players without taking Gore. His heart alone puts him in the top ten.
Until 2011 Gore was the lone bright spot in a sea of futility. He was indeed the heart of the team. Unfortunately Father Time hates running backs. I don’t think Gore is still a top 10 player on the team at this time.
He’ll always be one of my favorite 49ers though. Without him the last 6 years would have been unwatchable.
I agree msc. He is still a good player, but he is not the Frank Gore of even a couple of years ago. He’s lost a step and can’t stay on the field as much as he did in the past. I still think he can be effective, but his carries will continue to go down.
2011 was Gore’s 2nd best year statisically since his best in 2006. He was injured in 2010 but yet was able to come back and have the third best season in his career maybe his second best depending on which numbers you go buy so you’ll have to excuse me if I say that the numbers just don’t suggest that Frank Gore has slipped even a little.
Hank,
He was middle of the pack in yards per carry at 4.3 and tailed off dramatically in the second half of the season. That leads me to believe he is slowing down. He did have a great game going against the Giants in the NFC Championship though and we should have given him the ball more.
I’m not saying he’s done Hank. Just saying he’s starting to near the finish line.
Akers broke the NFL’s single season scoring record last year. Jerry Rice had it prior. Fix your list.
Ray is high. I like Frank, but his numbers are skewed. He used to be good for a legit 4.5 pc, but now he has a couple long runs and then a bunch of stuffs (on 3rd down often). Staley needs to be there.
Someone mentioned Alex because he is more valuable. That’s a different list. This one is on best players, not most valuable, and imo he is not one of our 10 best.
I don’t think they were serious. :)
Gore should of definitely been on that list. Also, I still can’t believe that Dashon “The Hawk” Goldson hardly gets any recognition after a stellar year. He too should be on the list.
Technically, he is not on the team.
Goldson is sort of boom or bust. He makes big plays but he also gives up big plays. I can’t see him in the top 10.
When he stops playing selfishly on the field and starts wrapping up on tackles. The poor angles he sometimes takes must stop as well.
Kickers only make a list for kickers. Akers winning any record don’t mean squat, 15 or more kickers in the league could have done the same given they took his spot on the Niners.
I agree that Gore needs to be in the top 10.
Many times players are measured by their effectiveness in the second half of the season, or playoff performance. FG did not excel in the second half granted, but a football season is made of 16 games. FG should be judged by the totality of the season, and that should definitely warrant a top 10 placement.
You mention that “You don’t have to be a genius to say that Patrick Willis, Justin Smith and Vernon Davis are three of the best players on the team.”
Yet you don’t have Vernon Davis as one of your top 3, i mean i knew the articles were bad, but to contradict yourself within your own article? DAMN SON
Duke, you can’t read. Go back to school. Being three of the best doesn’t imply top three. What if the pool was ten players? Then these guys could be 4, 5, and 6 or any other combination outside of the top ten.
I like that Andy Lee is on this list, as his contributions are huge. (If we’re talking field position, where does Ted Ginn fit?) However, I have a hard time putting David Akers ahead of guys like T. Brown, C. Culliver, D. Whitner, J. Staley, M. Iupati, Alex Smith, and Frank Gore.
Didn’t even mention Crabtree, Moss, Manningham, Walker, or many other guys.
Well put, PFF
There are a lot of players ahead of our kickers/punters who are in at the most 25% of the time.
Stewjack
The reason Gore has gone lower in YPC is the same as it is for QB pct….8-9 in the box. When defenses see Moss, Manningham, Crabtree, and VD or LaM James…Frank will benefit, and his YPC will go up markedly. Gore is going to be great for the next 2-3 years.
Not up front they won’t. They will still single cover outside wide receivers until AS proves that he can make a defense pay.
Defenses will even single cover Moss until AS makes them pay.
It’s not that Smith can’t make that throw, defenses just know that with a little pressure, Smith gives up on that route early.
@ Bay
What you said has been the conventional wisdom on here, but I dunno. How many times did Moss cruise into the end zone against the Packers over the years? Are you telling me they’re going to single Randy on Opening Day? Really? Dom Capers is going to do that? Only when they try stunts/blitzes.
Why would Capers make it easy on Alex by singling Moss?
What about me? lol
Giants fans say I am their best player ..
Can’t even stay on point through one article. This is the last article of yours l read. Your not ready for this job. Perhaps you would be better off blogging for az or seattle the teams nobody care about.
You people who ranked Justin Smith ahead of Patrick Willis are out of your mind. Patrick Willis was an all pro from rookie on to now and were is Frank Gore or Michael Crabtree in the ranking? You guys aren’t being racially bias are you?
We won 13 games with one of the most unproductive passing games in the NFL. Gore put up 1200 yards 4.5 yards per carry, 4 straight games with 125 yards and a touchdown and 5 straight games with 100 in a run first offense where defenses knew what they had to do to stop us from scoring playoffs. He adds 5.6 yards per carry in the post season and for some reason it seems the majority of 49er fans want to call Gore washed up. Find me one analyst, one football person, anyone with a hint of credibility to look at Frank Gores tape from 2011 that has said or written that he’s washed up. You won’t be able to find one.
Sidebar question; Grant, did you see Mark Cuban and Skip Bayless? Something to think about…
I may get killed for saying this but Alex smith should be recognized for consideration.
You are insane.
My list goes like this:
1) Willis
2) J. Smith
3) Moss *(Where would a true fan of the GAME put this guy? If you remove him from this list, and bump everyone else up a slot, I would put Bowman at 10.)
4) Davis
5) Gore
6) Lee
7) Goldson
8) Alex
9) Rodgers
10) Aldon
Bowman was second in the NFL in unassisted tackles and had 3 fumble recoveries last year. Having Moss, Lee, or Goldson above him indicates how little you know about football.
Yeah and having Alex ranked ahead of Aldon is an indication of a “crush” similar to the one “oneniner” has.
Says the guy who posts about nothing but Alex Smith.
Grant I hope nobody’s dumb enough to pay you.
Wow. You had a rookie backup OLB, a kicker, a punter, and at least 7 other players ahead of the QB as most valuable to the team – and most people thought that was about right. It’s nothing short of amazing that Harbaugh was able to get this team to the NFC Championship Game. This is a QB driven league and if you have a QB who isn’t even one of the top 10 best players on your own team then IMHO it’s impossible to sustain success in the NFL.
Its not a QB driven league anymore, its who ever gets hot in late December/January.
Brady couldnt carry the team through the playoffs, neither could Rodgers or Brees (all “elite level QB’s).
Its the ultimate team game as the Giants have shown.
QB driven yet two of the final 4 teams last year were run and defense oriented teams. You can win in many different ways.
Yet the 2 teams in the Super Bowl were QB driven.
Right because one had two game killing fumbles, and the other had the winning TD dropped in the Endzone. Your turn.
And your point? Neither actually won the game. The last time I checked close was only good in horse shoes and hand grenades.
You are right, you can win in many ways. It just so happens that the two teams that DID WIN had the better QB.
My point is that those two QB driven teams didn’t win because of those QB’s. They won because their opponent made the mistakes that cost them the game. Two fumbles and one dropped TD pass were the difference between the Niners and Ravens meeting in the SB instead of the Pats and Giants. QB driven had nothing to do with it; Brady had a 53 ranking against the Ravens yet still won. Eli had a worse QB ranking than Smith did, only averaged 5.4 yards a pass but still won because the Niners gave them 10 points on TO’s.
So many people want to analyze things in a vacuum in this sport and you can’t. Trends change all the time in the NFL. Right now the belief is you need a Probowl QB to win a Championship, before it was you need a strong running game to set up the pass, Defense wins Championships etc.
The truth is, there is no one formula for winning a football game. More often than not it is who makes the fewest mistakes that wins the game. The QB driven angle is just another short sighted take on the current game and the fact two defensive minded, run oriented teams were in the final four backs it up. It’s great to have a probowl QB; I’d love to have Brady or Rodgers, but they are at the mercy of the people around them which is why you see different teams winning different ways.
rocket, you are making too much sense in this blog. Stop it right now.
I dont think your watching the games too closely Jack, maybe too fantasy/stat orientated.
Brady couldnt get it done against a ferocious Giants dline and Manning made one throw and Mannigham had one spectacular catch to put the Giants primed for victory.
Back up to Rodgers against the Giants and basically all those drops by the pack WR’s and you have the best QB in the league not being able to overcome those errors. Again, its the ultimate TEAM game and without a supporting cast that can make plays consistently, no QB can carry a team like it once did in the 80′s.
Its a new NFL game where peaking in late DEC/early JAN really matters. Its about having everything go right at that time. Just because you have an elite QB, wont make winning any easier as teams and coaches know how to take that one advantage away real fast in the playoffs. Ask Brees how he felt getting knocked down and confused against the Niners dline and secondary, or Brady who got pushed around by the Giants front four? Those are two HOF QB’s who looked pretty ordinary to me. Back in the day, Brady would have overcome that pass rush, now, everyone is an athlete and can get after it and the coaching is so much better. No one position in the NFL is superior to another. TEAM, TEAM, TEAM!
Good take Rocket.
Of course it takes a great team to win the SB. Of course there are multiple ways to win games. Of course it is critical that your team gets hot in the playoffs.
It’s still a qb driven league. You can win games without a great QB. You can win playoff games without a great QB. The odds are stacked very heavily against you in sustaining success or winning a Superbowl without a great QB. Here’s a list of the last 5 Super Bowl starting QB’s:
Brady vs Eli Manning
Rodgers vs Roethlisberger
Brees vs Peyton Manning
Roethlisberger vs Kurt Warner
Eli Manning vs Brady
I don’t see too many average QB’s in there. There’s a reason several of those guys are on that list multiple times. This is a QB driven league. The proof is that every QB to start in the Super Bowl in the last 5 years is on a Hall of Fame track. I would also venture to say that the starting QB on those teams was in the top 10 best players on their team. Which was the last team to appear in the Super Bowl where the QB was not one of the top 10 best players on their team? In the last 20 years, I can think of maybe 2 teams that won the SB where the QB was not playing as one of the 10 best on his team – Grossman and Dilfer. Other than that, every team had a QB playing at a high level.
Didn’t mean win the superbowl as Grossman didn’t win. Meant get to the Superbowl.
Nah FDM. I completely hate fantasy football.
I agree with both you and Rocket that football is the ultimate TEAM game. That’s why I don’t pin that NFCCG loss solely on Williams. A couple of 3rd down conversions here, a couple less personal foul penalties on VD there and that game might never have made it into overtime to begin with.
The perfect case to prove your point that a QB alone doesn’t win championships is Dan Marino. Great QB, great stats/records but no defense.
I agree with ribico and Jack. rocket nailed it with his 11:08 comment.
So Houston are you saying that without an elite QB the odds are stacked against teams that don’t have one in order to win a SB?
Based on that analogy your basically saying only 5 teams have a legitimate shot to win a championship in a league where parity is so prevalent.
You also would be dismissing the notion like FDM said that peaking late in the season is not that important as having an elite QB that makes winning easier? Since when is winning easier anyways?
Also, where are these odds that are stacked up against teams that don’t have a elite QB? I like to see these odds/ stats because based on Vegas odds, the 49ers are the #1 favorites to win it all and we don’t have an elite QB.
Lastly I’m sure you have heard the notion on any given Sunday, that means most talented, elite QB never guarantees anything. Sports is based on competition and in football, any one team can beat another regardless of who has more talent behind centre or any other position for that matter.
@Prime,
I don’t discount anything in winning the SB. Getting hot at the right time is very important. Again, let’s look at the last 5 Superbowls. Here is the QBR ranking compared to the rest of the league of the QB’s starting those games:
#3 – #7
#3 – #5
#1 – #6
#3 – #24
#1 – #5
The getting hot at the right time comes into play when maybe the 7th best QB in the regular season has the best postseason. Eli was the 7th ranked qb in terms of season numbers but had the best postseason with the most yards and the most TD’s and a high QBR.
Now let’s look at the defenses of those same teams in terms of yards per game:
#27 – #31
#25 – #18
#1 – #19
#4 – #7
Some of these defenses got hot in the playoffs but they certainly weren’t the best defenses in the league that year.
If these numbers say anything it’s that you better have a top 10 QB and a defense peaking at the right time. Having an elite QB adds a huge amount of value in winning.
Houston,
As I said, it doesn’t hurt to have a great QB by any means but quite often it isn’t the difference between winning and losing. Rothlisberger is a great example. His first SB he was a caretaker, didn’t play well and won because of his defense and some questionable officiating. The Second SB season he threw for… wait for it….17 TD’s and 15 Ints. He completed less than 50% of his passes in the AFC Championship game against the Ravens yet still won. Those are clearly not QB driven victories, yet Rothlisberger is thought of as having led the team to a SB victory.
In the Steelers run to the SB two years ago, Rothlisberger had nearly identical stats to the ones Smith had this season. Granted he missed the first 4 games due to suspension, but it shows you how being smart and efficient with the football is much more meaningful than racking up passing yards. The Steelers got to the SB with that kind of QB production and the Niners almost did it last year.
It’s perception that leads to statements like I listed above, when the reality is, Football is won by the team that makes the fewest mistakes more often than not. Is it a bonus to have a Probowl QB? Absolutely. Is it a necessity? No.
Check it out, the article says “Ranking the Niners BEST players”
not “Ranking the most valuable Niners”
@FDM,
I COMPLETELY disagree with you. Obviously football is a team game, but you’re opinion is simply wrong. You said:
“Just because you have an elite QB, wont make winning any easier as teams and coaches know how to take that one advantage away real fast in the playoffs.”
Having an elite QB makes a huge difference in winning and losing. Tom Brady making so many superbowls isn’t an accident. Eli Manning making multiple Superbowls isn’t an accident. Ben Roethlisberger making multiple Superbowls isn’t an accident.
In the 80′s, NFL teams averaged passing 31.7 times per game. That average went up in the 90′s and continued rising all the way through 2011 when NFL teams averaged an all time high of over 34.3 passes per game. QB’s are becoming more important as the number of passes thrown continues to increase. Having an Elite QB who can efficiently execute that portion of your offense is the difference between winning and losing for many teams.
HOU says: Having an elite QB makes a huge difference in winning and losing. Tom Brady making so many superbowls isn’t an accident. Eli Manning making multiple Superbowls isn’t an accident. Ben Roethlisberger making multiple Superbowls isn’t an accident.
What about the great defenses and coaches on all those teams, thats not an accident either. You take out those elements and the fact each of those teams got hot late in the season and you have what my opinion states, that in order to win in the NFL, you need everything to go right. An elite QB cannot and will not win a championship on his own, nor does it make winning any easier. No matter how many yards they pass for or how many TD’s they throw during their careers, winning in toodays NFL requires the ultimate team concep/approach.
The Ginats dont win any of their superbowls without thier defense AND Eli playing well. The Steelers dont win if whats his name does not make a specatacular toe/sideline catch against AZ, and Brady getting to all those superbowls winning was due in large part to his play and the genius coaching of Belicheck and a pretty good supporting cast.
Passing teams in the playoffs dont fair all that well either. Its still the philosophy of running the ball and playing good defense that wins in the playoffs so your stats are accuracet about passing in the regular season but as we have seen, the regular season style does not work in the playoffs.
Last year the Giants and Patriots had the 27th & 31st ranked defenses in the league in terms of yards per game. Last year the Giants and Patriots had the 15th and 25th ranked defenses in the league in terms of points allowed per game.
So FDM look at the list I provided of the starting QB’s in the last 5 Superbowls and tell me which QB is not elite. Tell me which team had a qb that was not one of the 10 best players on his team that year.
@Houston:
While the number of passes thrown/game has risen over the years, so has the total number of offensive plays/game. For the past 20 years, teams have dropped back to pass 54-58% of the time. The percentage last year (57.1%) was high, but no higher than the percentage in 1999 and lower than the percentage in 1995 (57.4%)
Mike Sando covered this a few weeks ago:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/67112/increasingly-pass-happy-nfl-might-not-be
Note: I am not saying that having an elite QB isn’t an advantage. I just want to suggest that the commonly accepted belief that the NFL is increasingly a passing league is not supported by the numbers. Not yet, anyway.
@Claude, more passes = more plays because the clock stops on incompletions. The NFL is more of a passing league today than ever in it’s history.
Houston,
Having an elite QB makes a huge difference in winning and losing. Tom Brady making so many superbowls isn’t an accident. Eli Manning making multiple Superbowls isn’t an accident. Ben Roethlisberger making multiple Superbowls isn’t an accident.
You are picking and choosing elements here Houston. Brady had the best HC in the biz leading his team. Eli Manning got to a SB this past year with his team going 9-7. Eli had a great year, but they didn’t start rolling until the defense picked it up which they did in the playoffs. I posted how deceiving Rothlisbergers Championship seasons were.
I’ll never say the QB position isn’t the most important on the field, but that doesn’t change the fact you aren’t winning unless you have all the elements in place and are on a roll come playoff time.
@Houston:
I don’t think you understand how percentages work. Your grasp of cause and effect also seems shaky.
Having a great QB is paramount to success. In the last 11 years in the NFL there have been 352 starting QBs. We all know there have been many more starters but I’m just going with 32 teams over 11 years. In that time 35 separate QB’s have made the Pro Bowl. So roughly 10% of QB’s play at a Pro Bowl level. Over the last 11 years there have been 13 QB’s to start in the Super Bowl. Of those 13 QB’s only one, Rex Grossman, has never made a Pro Bowl. So around 93% of SB starting QB’s have played at a Pro Bowl level. In 5 of the last 11 Super Bowls, both starting QB’s made the Pro Bowl in the year of the SB. In 10 of the last 11 SB’s at least one of the starting QB’s was a Pro Bowl QB. 70% of the starting SB QB’s made the Pro Bowl in the year they played in the SB.
So 10% of the QB’s in the league play at a Pro Bowl Level but over 93% of the SB QB’s are Pro Bowl QB’s. I may be a simpleton and not understand cause and effect but I sure see a significant correlation between QB’s playing great and teams making the Super Bowl. Are there anomolies? Sure. Doesn’t change the fact that having a QB playing great is critical to success.
Without a great QB your chances of reaching the SB are somewhere between slim and none.
@Houston:
When I said you do not understand percentages and cause & effect, I was referring to your “more passes = more plays” comment and to your stubborn insistence that “the NFL is more of a passing league today than ever in its history” when the numbers show that not to be the case.
As I said before, I am not arguing against the proposition that having a great QB gives a team an advantage in getting to and wining the Super Bowl.
And that’s where we differ Claude. You say having a great QB is an advantage. I say you only have a 7% chance of even making the SB if you don’t have a QB who is capable of playing at a Pro Bowl level. Having a great QB is not just an advantage. It’s a necessity if you want to win the SuperBowl.
Last year in the NFL there were 745 passing TD’s. Compare that to the 400 rushing TD’s. Let that sink in – There were 345 more passing TD’s than rushing TD’s last year. There are many teams who have scored more TD’s passing than rushing for over 10 years in a row. You can call it stubborn insistence all you want but I call it common sense. The NFL is a passing league. I’m not sure how you can look at those TD numbers and come to any other conclusion.
@Houston:
I never wrote that the NFL wasn’t a passing league. If you can find a comment in which I did, please identify it.
I wrote that it isn’t any more of a passing league now than it has been for the past 20 years, and the numbers show that to be true. I don’t think I can make it any clearer than that.
As for your statistical “analysis,” your sample size is too small to be statistically significant. Moreover, 2 of the final 4 QBs in last year’s playoffs were not Pro Bowl players. Given that their respective teams lost for reasons other than QB inferiority, I’d say having an elite QB is not a necessity for getting to the Super Bowl.
It’s obvious that you have reached a conclusion and that nothing will sway you from it, so let’s just agree to disagree before the discussion deteriorates into a name-calling borefest.
@ Claude,
You said, “I just want to suggest that the commonly accepted belief that the NFL is increasingly a passing league is not supported by the numbers. Not yet, anyway.” To me that was saying you don’t think the NFL is a passing league. Perhaps you were saying the NFL is the same as it was 20 years ago in terms of being a passing league but I still disagree with that. The NFL is increasingly a passing league.
Year Pass TD Rush Td Total %Passing TD
1970 427 293 720 59.31%
1980 606 431 1037 58.44%
1990 575 377 952 60.40%
2000 634 412 1046 60.61%
2010 751 399 1150 65.30%
2011 745 400 1145 65.07%
And to your point that 2 of the final 4 QB’s were not Pro Bowl QB’s – well who made the SuperBowl? The guys who were in the Pro Bowl. You’re point actually supports my argument. The teams that did not have a Pro Bowl QB did not make the SB. Having an elite QB was a necessity in reaching the Superbowl in 2011 as it was over the past decade.
Over the last 20 years there has been a passing explosion at the youth, high school, and college levels. 7 on 7 passing leagues are common for even kids down to 10 years old. Spread offenses are common in college, high school, and even some youth teams. All these kids that grew up passing the ball have been dominating the NFL for at least 10 years.
I’ve supported my argument that having a Pro Bowl level QB is a necessity in the NFL with numerous stats and facts. You haven’t provided anything to support you’re opinion. So as far as I’m concerned I led you to water and you stubbornly refused to drink. I’m done with this argument as well.
HOU if you really believe winning the SB is all dependent on having a probowl/elite QB, then just watch Alex get it done this year or continue to believe that he wont and have fun enjoying the games from a negative perspective.
Your a fan of the 49ers, why are you coming up with a multitude of stats to say it cant be done. Do you enjoy coming up with arguements against players on the team you follow?
@FDM,
What in the world are you talking about? This argument has NOTHING to do with Alex. If the 49ers reach the Super Bowl it will be partially due to Alex having a Pro Bowl type year and no one will be happier about that than me. If Alex doesn’t have a Pro Bowl type year then it will be extremely difficult to even reach the SB. I’m not making any argument against Alex whatsoever. If the 9ers make the SB, Alex’s contribution will probably be greater than any other player on the field. That is a fact supported by all the stats.
HOU for two days now you have come up with stats and opinions saying that in order to win it all, sorry, a better chance to win it all, teams need an elite level QB/probowler. In the past you have clearly stated that Alex is none of those things.
So now what, your saying the 49ers can win it all with Alex or not?
Oh how nice would it be to be a hater. You can always play the what have you done lately card or even better, let’s see what Alex can do this game, then the next game, then a playoff game, then it will be, can he win a superbowl.
How convenient for you dumbass haters to always look at the negative. Your lives must be all about your entitlement, show me, I deserve better, thats not good enough, gimme a break!
Sports is about an escape from reality, a time to rejoice and appreciate the game. Insted we have “fans” comin up with arguments as to why this guy can’t it done, Like any of you have a clue as to what it takes or what Alex can or can’t do. I dont either so just watch the games and shut the hell up!
@FDM,
Over the past 2 days I have posted numerous stats showing that NFL teams have a very slim chance of reaching or winning a SuperBowl without a QB playing at an elite level. I have posted numerous stats showing that the NFL is a passing league. Those arguments had nothing to do with Alex specifically, and were related to league trends.
To answer you’re question, yes I think the 9ers can win a SB with Alex Smith. I truely believe in the coaching of Harbaugh. I believe he can maximize every ounce of talent from Smith. There is some precedence for this too. Brad Johnson and Jake Delhomme were average QB’s who played at a Pro Bowl level for just long enough to take their teams to SuperBowls. IMHO, Alex is an average QB who has played at below average levels for most of his career. Obviously, there are many circumstances that led to his subpar performances but with the things he could control such as decision making and accuracy he was still subpar. Even last year, where he had his best year he did not play well consistently. In year 2 of Harbaugh’s tutelage I expect to see significant improvement. I don’t think a SB appearance is out of the question.
FDM,
Houston never brought up Alex through this entire thread, you did, and he already answered your question. He said that if Smith plays at a Pro Bowl level he can lead the team to a Super Bowl.
Try paying attention to the entire thread…
Jack get serious, we all know that HOU was talking about Alex, your not that clueless are you? And what if Alex does not have a probowl year, does that mean the 49ers wont win the SB? Pay attentuion to the questions not what you want to hear or comment about.
First off the PB is a joke and in no way determines whether a team or player played at a winning level. Its a popularity contest and most times, players get in cause their veteran status and or their peers voted them in.
See you haters have the blinders on 24/7, its impossible to have a football conversation with you because you dont know enough the game or its history. Its all about stats with you guys and you know what they say about stats……..
@ Prime,
Get Stuffed you brown eyed mullet
@ FDM,
You have such a bug up your backside about Alex that you can’t even have a football conversation. This entire thread was about NFL trends of the most successful teams. You can’t dispute the facts so you resort to foolish generalizations and name calling. Why don’t you take a little break and let you’re Mommy fix you a nice bologna sandwich and a glass of milk and let the adults have some grown up time.
FDM and Prime,
This thread was a conversation about the NFL being a QB driven league and you two just made it about AS and haters.
Get your heads out of Alex’s @ss for 2 seconds and realize that you are the ones unable to carry on a football conversation. The only time you two show up is when you want to defend The Precious. Now scurry off back to your holes.
@ Houston
Another marathon thread…….
One question and one observation:
In saying Alex would need to have a ProBowl-type year for SF to make the Big Dance, are you saying he has to finish in the Top 4? Top 6? And to rate a QB, what you’re talking about is Passer Rating, right?
My thought is the 29th Pass Offense (and the 16th rated QB by Jaws; subjective) got within a couple of TOs and penalties of the SB. I don’t think he is a Top 5 QB right now; but I do think SF can make the SB.
Observation:
To me its beyond debate that NFL is a passing league. Harbaugh leveraged that by feeding defenses diets they weren’t used to. He’ll need to do more this year; everybody’s studied us. My thought is that in discussing QBs/Passing leading to success many point to Eli. The other half of the equation is teams having the ability to disrupt the other passer. G-men had that going for them. They got good pressure and Eli made plays under duress. Can he make as many plays this year? We’ll see; he needed them all last year.
Do you haters have a general meeting every couple months and discuss what your responses will be to real fans cause it seems like its always the same thing.
We real fans are either really angry at life, we need to stop the obsession with Alex when in reality, none of us bring it up, were not ones trying to conjure up arguements against him, and, we all need to grow up.
HOU, you keep thinking the worst and enjoy your lets see what happens approach but I dont think it will happen perspective. I will be cheering with enthusiasm and relishing in every victory while you and your hates club continue to find reasons why it had nothing to do with Alex and it was all special teams and defense (what a joke that argument is)
Sure thing Houston you crusty old fart.
Jack, if were talking about a QB driven league and the moron that you are does not recognize that Alex is indirectly being discussed like all you haters do, then you need polish up your get with the program thinking cap on.
Of course any real 49er fan is going to come out an defend Alex, thats what real fans do. Insted you make up arguements that he can’t and won’t. Oh but thats just you stating your opinion. Jack, news flash buddy, no one cares about your small ignorant opinion on anything football related because it’s weak!
Well Brotha, I don’t think you can look at QBR alone. I used that stat to prove a point but it’s only one element of a successful QB. I think Alex needs to take a few more risks and make passes he wouldn’t have made last year. To me, for Alex to take the next step he needs to maintain his current QBR while throwing for more yards and more TD’s. An improved passing attack will lead to improved 3rd down and red zone efficiency. I don’t think it’s horrible if Alex throws a few more interceptions if it means he creates more opportunities for the offense. I’d like to see him move from ultra-conservative to just conservative.
@ FDM,
I said I thought the 9ers have a legitimate shot at making the Superbowl. I said I thought Alex would enjoy significant improvement under Harbaugh.
How is that expecting the worst? You’re grasp on reality seems to be slipping.
Thanks Houston-
I seem to be in almost complete agreement with your response to me. Only one point to quibble about:
A few more Ints……. Yeah, there are times to take a few chances. I’m thinking of Harbaugh though and his Field Position ethos. It became ever more clear as Fangio talked about the three phases all working together for Field Position and Ball Control; he’s drinking Harb’s Kool-Aid. Its a core theme, so like the Chairman of The Fed wanting to hold down inflation, JH won’t buy in to too many hiccups, imo.
Prime Time,
You may be right. Thank you for taking the time to read my comments and respond.
If Alex can throw for more yards and more TD’s and still only throw 5 Int’s then that would be fantastic. However, I don’t think it’s fair to Alex to say we want you to be a little more aggressive and not expect that he will throw a few more Int’s. Aaron Rodgers threw 3 times more TD’s than Alex did last year but only 1 more Int. I’m not looking for that type of production from Alex because Harbaugh’s offense would never produce those numbers. I think it’s not too much to expect Alex to go 25 TD’s and 7/8 Int’s. With those numbers he really could be approaching Pro Bowl performance.
Houston,
If Harbaugh can get Smith to the point where he plays the entire game with that “cold blooded” mentality that he shows at the end of games in come backs things will get interesting.
Smith has the ability, it just needs to be more consistent.
So which is it HOU, can Alex win or not? First you state all these comments:
“Having an elite QB makes a huge difference in winning and losing.”
“Having an Elite QB who can efficiently execute that portion of your offense is the difference between winning and losing for many teams”
“Without a great QB your chances of reaching the SB are somewhere between slim and non”.
I say you only have a 7% chance of even making the SB if you don’t have a QB who is capable of playing at a Pro Bowl level.
Then you say, “Alex is an average QB who has played at below average levels for most of his career.
So if you need an elite level QB to win but Alex is an average QB his entire career, and you think JH and the Ninerrs can win with him, whats the deal HOU, can he or cant he win cause based on your comments over two days, you totally contradict yourself. First you need an ELITE QB, then you say he is average, and now you think they can still win please explain?
Both times Big Ben went to the super bowl he threw 17 touchdown passes. Just saying…… Alex can lead the niners to and win the super bowl. The anti Smith crowd just cant let it go. As far as Brady goes, same as Montana right coach with right QB. You dont need an elite QB but you need one that is very good.
Roethlisberger also converted about half of his third downs in those games.
@FDM,
Trying to converse with you is very taxing. Everything I wrote is linear and not too hard to follow but I’ll break it down for you one last time.
Having an elite QB is paramount to appearing in the Superbowl. The fact that 93% of the QB’s who have appeared in the Superbowl over the last 11 years are also Pro Bowl QB’s is strong proof that having an elite QB is a necessity.
Alex Smith has been an average to below average QB his entire NFL career. It’s not surprising the 49ers have not been to the SuperBowl in Smith’s career as he has not been a Superbowl level QB. Obviously, that’s not all his fault but the fact remains that he hasn’t been a great QB.
The 49ers can make the Superbowl if Harbaugh can coach Smith up and run an offense that maximizes Smith’s ability. If Smith can raise his level of play to an elite level then the 9ers have a great shot at making and winning the SB. If Smith falters and turns in an average performance the 49ers chances of making the Superbowl are slim.
Now I tire of explaining the simple facts to you. My original thoughts on this subject had to do with the overall NFL and were not specifically related to Smith. You brought him into this and I’ve responded. It’s time for you to move on
The only think I find taxing HOU is your contradictions. You contradict yourself so many times you have no clue what your actually debating.
You want a SB but believe that it can only happen with an elite QB/prowbowler, but on the other hand you think the Niners can do it with Smith who’s an average QB (your words, not mine).
Confused, yeah you should be because it came out of your head which I think is overloaded with wanting something and trying to understand how winning a championship actaully works. Its a team game, no one player or postion is bigger or more important than the sum of its entiriety. Regardless if its a passing league or what style works in the playoffs.
Keep watching son, you’ll eventually figure it out along with all the other ignorant haters!
Houston,
You say you’ve posted numbers and proof, but all I’m reading are mixing and matching of points to make your view seem valid.
It starts with you looking at the last 11 SB’s. Why that number? Also you completely ignored the info I posted about Rothlisberger. You have not accounted for the times these QB’s really didn’t play that well yet their team still won.
What you’ve done here is exactly what I pointed out in a post above. You are looking at this in a vacuum. Including some facts while completely ignoring others.
Having a probowl QB is great, but it doesn’t guarantee success. The reason you can look at the last 11 years and make the conclusion you have is because a number of those teams have appeared in more than 1 SB. What you aren’t including is the fact Rothlisberger, Eli Manning and even Brady in the first two SB appearances he made, did not put up crazy numbers or have dominating games in the playoffs. They won as much with defense as they did with offense and in a lot of cases more.
You can try to put a stamp on this league, but it doesn’t work. As Claude has astutely pointed out, it’s been a passing league for more than two decades. That’s nothing new. What is new is the way they are doing it with more spread formations and screens as opposed to 7 step drops and bombs away. What hasn’t changed is you still have to run the ball and play defense and the teams that win can do that. Teams with a great QB and nothing else rarely win Championships.
@ Rocket,
Well, Genius I’m not looking at this in a vacuum. I’ve given you 40 years of passing stats. I showed you defensive stats that prove teams with average defenses win SB’s more than teams with average QB’s win SB’s. I’ve compared QB’s over a decade to show that teams with the best QB’s in the league are the ones who get to and win the Superbowl. I picked a decade because that goes back to 2000. I could compare another decade and it would be the same thing because the same teams get to the SB multiple times in every decade. All you guys can come up with is “uhhhh, uhhhh, uhhhh, you’re not right, uhhhh, uhhhh, uhhh, Ben Roethlisberger.” Of course teams have to run and play defense to win championships. DUH! No crap. Having a QB that teams must respect and teams know can hurt them creates huge opportunities for the running game. It all goes hand in hand and it starts with having a great QB.
Houston,
A frustrated response like this is a waste of time. We’ve given you reasons why the stats are the way they are to show you it isn’t as simple as you are making it out to be. Having a Probowl QB is great, but it takes more than that to get to a SB and win it.
The problem is, you just ignore what doesn’t mesh with your point such as the fact The Giants defense and an amazing catch was the main reason they won a SB over an undefeated Pats team. The game they won over the Packers to get there turned on an Int of Favre in his own end. The Steelers won with a running game and defense with Roethlisberger playing a role similar to what Smith did this year. The Pats won with defense earlier in Bradys career.
The difference between what we are saying is you are putting way too much emphasis on the Probowl QB being responsible for the SB appearances, when the facts don’t back it up. Stop looking at the probowl designation and look at what the QB’s did in the games. You’ll see they had as many average games as they did good ones and quite often won because of defense or mistakes by the other team. That’s football. You are taking a way too simplistic look at this.
@ Rocket,
What is a waste of time is people who take a myopic view of a broad discussion and twist it down to a single game or a single play. What’s a waste of time is trying to educate the Smithers who try to argue any fact that doesn’t fit in with the Smith narrative they want to project even when the topic isn’t about Smith specifically. What’s a waste of time is conversing with people who are intellectually dishonest. Of course football is a team game. Of course every aspect is important. The most important component to achieving the ultimate success is having a great QB. This is why QB’s automatically receive a 15% pay premium over every other player. Here’s a good article that expresses my thoughts on QBs. A quote is below:
“Virtually the entire league agrees: in order to compete for a Super Bowl, you have to have a star quarterback.”
http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/23/n-f-l-evolution-good-isnt-good-enough-for-quarterbacks/
No Houston, the problem is you want to ignore facts that don’t support your argument. I’ve agreed with you that having a Probowl QB is a good thing, and certainly doesn’t hurt your chances of being good, but you are trying to say it’s the only way you get to the SB and you are wrong.
There are many instances of the QB’s not playing well and winning anyway. There’s the fact Roethlisberger went to two SB’s with stats similar to Alex Smith. You are just looking at the names in the SB and making a judgement that is incorrect.
My God rocket, you are obtuse. Like I’ve said over, and over, and over again it’s not about a single game. It’s not about whether a QB played poorly and the team still won. An elite level QB significantly impacts a game even when he doesn’t play well. A great QB impacts how the opponent calls their defenses. A great QB even impacts how the opponent plays offense. You obviously want to live in your little cocoon and won’t be convinced of the obvious. Good luck to you.
My God rocket, you are obtuse
On the contrary, you’ve resorted to insults and name calling so it’s pretty obvious you are intellectually overmatched here. You’ve also referred to me as a genius and obtuse in your last two posts. Those are contradictary terms. Find your dictionary and learn something.
Like I’ve said over, and over, and over again it’s not about a single game. It’s not about whether a QB played poorly and the team still won.
I’m going to keep this as an example of how off track somebody can get when they post while frustrated. This is easily one of the dumbest things ever posted here. Congrats.
An elite level QB significantly impacts a game even when he doesn’t play well. A great QB impacts how the opponent calls their defenses. A great QB even impacts how the opponent plays offense.
Complete nonsense. Football is a game of adjustments. If a QB is struggling or can’t adapt to what the defense is doing, that is what affects what they call. Not his rep or what he did a previous week.
You obviously want to live in your little cocoon and won’t be convinced of the obvious. Good luck to you.
Well Houston let’s just say I’m not swayed by rhetoric or slanted stat points. I look at the whole picture, not just the part that works for me. Coming from a guy who thought we would have gone 14-4 with David Carr, I’ll take your anger and frustration with my responses as a compliment.
Well, I’m comforted by the fact that every GM in the NFL agrees with me. You have a group of 3 or 4 Smithers who couldn’t find their butt with both hands. Speaking of intellectually overmatched…
They would agree with the fact that having a Probowl QB is a good thing, as do I. They wouldn’t however agree with your perverse interpretation of facts.
You have a group of 3 or 4 Smithers who couldn’t find their butt with both hands. Speaking of intellectually overmatched…
I’m guessing this completes your latest melt down. Try to act like a grown up once in awhile.
A very difficult list to establish. Everyone has their opinion
How in the hell does Frank Gore not make the list? Did you even see Top 100 and where he’s ranked there?
There is a reason he “disappeared” toward the end. With no Receivers to make the Defense put every hat on a hat that left guys free to fill the box where Frank does his best work. Not gonna be that way this year if Moss Manningham and Jenkins fill their roles. Frank imho is top 5. Love what All Day brings to this Defense but it could be a 1 year deal so being that he’s a Rookie he takes a back seat to a Veteran who set the Franchise mark for Yards from scrimmage, having the most yardage of ANY 49er Running Back in less time than most of players before him. We’re talking John Henry Johnson, Hugh McElhaney, Joe Perry Roger Craig, Ricky Watters, Garrison Hearst and lots of others. If that doesn’t warrant top 5 then nothing does an I’ll eat one of the Ridell shells the players currently wear.
Frank gore is 100000% a top ten player if not top 5. show some respect Grant. its unbelieveable how you have 1 player from the O. 55 is not better than Frank.
1. # 52
2. # 94
3. #85
4. #21
5 # 53
6. #99
7. #38
8. #22
9. #31
10. # 55
forgetting guys like…
#74
#91
#90
#2
#4
Isaac Sopoaga is the most underrated player on the team. The defense became elite when he took over the NT position from Franklin. Nobody runs up the middle on us. He played the FB position and his lead blocking was instrumental in what there was of a short yardage running game and he even caught an 18 yards pass on an important play. Ice even played some on special teams. Give the guy his due.
+1
For sure Icebox definitely deserves consideration for top 10. I’ve always liked the guy and he’s coming into his own as a player. It’s mind boggling how much players improved with a change Coaching at the Head Coach position. :/
If you’re going to go that high on special teams you could make an argument for Ted Ginn, who was probably the best combination of kick returner and punt returner in the league. No punt returner (w/ > 25 returns) other than Hester averaged more yards per return, and Ginn was well above Hester in average kick return yardage. Then again, saying Ginn is better than Gore doesn’t pass the smell test, which highlights how off your 6-10 are. But, it was an interesting read.
Interesting thing about this whole thread is that we can have an argument of sorts.
Was not so long ago, that naming five or ten solid (or better) 49er starters was damned difficult. Now there are about 20, so we can legitimately bicker about which are in the best ten.
It’s an indication of how far this team has come in the last couple of years, and a good problem to have.
I think number 6 should be Frank Gore. Rogers had a career year but he does not measure up to what Gore had contributed last season. Gore is one of the most versatile backs in the game. I’ll bet Gore has a better season than Rogers this year…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xVFkSrT5dQ
Gore has produced more than Vernon Davis has and is our best offensive player, otherwise other teams would game plan more for Vernon. This list blows and is the last time I visit this pointless blog
Lemme flog this dead equine for a moment.
You simply can’t list two special teamers and a veteran who finally had a decent year in the league above your number one running back. If not for the games missed last year Frank would have 6 consecutive years of 1000+ yards a team record that he already holds by the way with 4. He’s played 100 out of 112 possible games in his 7 year career and that is on two surgically repaired knees. His all purpose yards consistently rank him as one of the best RB’s in the league each year and his blocking and blitz pick up is almost unmatched.
Frank Gore isn’t just one of the ten best players on this team he’s one of the ten best at his position in the entire league and that is worth being placed higher then a place kicker, punter and one hit wonder corner back.
I’m willing to bet that if you put up a national poll and asked the rest of the NFL fans to list the 49ers best players that PW would be #1 and FG would be #2 at worst #3 behind VD. I say that simply to point out just how ridiculous it is to make a list of the 49ers best players and none of the names in the top ten are Frank Gore.
You would probably win your bet, but only becuse non 49ers fans would probably struggle to name the players outside of the skill positions and all pro’s.
Off the top of your head could you name the O-line of the Bills or Bengals for example.
@Hank:
Although I sympathize with your general premise, I think you completely miss the mark with your assessment of Carlos Rogers. The man is one of the better cover corners in the league and is far from a one hit wonder.
Why would a national poll of “the rest of the NFL fans” provide a more reliable identification of the 49ers’ best players? By that logic, you and I are more qualified to identify the Buffalo Bills’ top 10 players than are the local beat writers who cover the team year round.
I think Andy Lee should be higher. He is the best punter in the NFL. The only reason he is at #10 is that the writer of this list doesn’t value punters. If you are to rate players by how they stack up against their counterparts in the league then Andy Lee should be higher. It is easier to argue that Andy Lee is the best punter in the NFL than it is to argue that Justin Smith is the best defensive lineman. Brooks ahead of Andy Lee? Does anyone think that Brooks is a better OLB than Lee is a punter? Some positions just don’t get the respect they deserve……
Andy Lee does one thing very well. Carlos Rogers, Ahmad Brooks and Ray McDonald are more versatile. They each play two positions at a high level.
About time you got in on this Grant,,,,
Seems that the impression given by ranking Andy Lee so high is that it’s a slight on the other players, I see it as recognition that Lee is one of the best punters of his generation, possibly ever.
If we go on pure production LAST YEAR, Willis would go down the list a lot, Brooks (2nd best year of any 3-4 SAM LB) & Akers & Lee would be higher. And Alex would replace McDonald at least (he’s a QB…he has ten times the responsibility of a 3-4 DE) and he excelled in the playoffs and had the same numbers at Eli Manning in that epic defensive battle in the NFCCG
I think people are mixing up what should be three seperate lists,
1) The Best players
2) The most important players
3) Favourite players
For example Alex Smith would be in my top ten in lists 2 and 3, but not in list one. When considering best players I’d have to compare each player to his peers across the league at that players particular position, as well as stats and the general impression given when watching that player play. Then you’d need to specify whether the list pertains to the players whole career or just the last seasons sample size. And honestly I doubt that my knowledge goes far enough to be able to produce a list that I would be happy submitting.
So balls to it i’ll let fly with list 3
1) Justin Smith
2) Kyle Williams
3) Alex Smith
4) Alex Boone
5) Patrick Willis
6) Frank Gore
7) Mike Iupati
8) Bruce Miller
9) Chris Culliver
10) Andy Lee
@DClark
Good points, well stated.
Gore HAS to be on the Most Valuable to Niners list, but I understand the debate on Best Player list. I think you have it right that they have to be compared to their peers around the league at their position. I still have FG rated higher than many here, but even Matt M. said within the last couple of days that Frank has lost a bit of explosiveness. He’s got enough other skills that I think he’ll be terrific again this year. He’ll catch the ball better this season than last.
Some of these Nay-sayers are going to be having Crow instead of Turkey on Thanksgiving.
Hey Grant I got another list,
Top Ten Niners to get rid of…
1. Kyle Williams
2. Kyle Williams
3. Kyle Williams
Etc, etc, ….
10. Kyle Williams
And he did cost us the game, just him.
And Grant, your list sucks but it sure did fire up some fans.
Jesus let it go already!, I bet your still looking for the paperboy who knocked over your favourite plantpot 10 years ago so you can punch him in the face.
MIKE IUPATI!!! I guess line get no love. He is a bull dozer!!!
No Gore in top 5 or 10 at least, are you kidding me? Swap Aldon Smith with A Lee, where did McDonald come from and Brooks is too inconsistant. I’d put Goldsten, Ginn as a KR, J Staley before those two!
OMG the more articles I read from this Grant dude the less I come to this blog. Bro, do you honestly think about what you write about before you write it? 8 times out of 10 your posts come from left field.
Oh and just posts your pops links like you do to bail yourself out, at least he knows what he’s writing about.