SANTA CLARA – After practice, three of the 49ers quarterbacks – Alex Smith, Josh Johnson and Scott Tolzien – had a long discussion in the weight-lifting tent adjacent to the practice field as they did bicep curls. Occasionally Smith would set down his weights, face the other quarterbacks and elucidate a point with his hands – pantomiming what looked like routes. When Smith did this, Tolzien and Johnson sat, listened and asked questions.
When they finished up, Tolzien walked over to reporters and answered questions about his discussions with the other Niner quarterbacks and the improvements he’s made to his game this offseason.
He also gave a great Aldon Smith story which you can read at the end of the interview. It’s about his first impression of Smith from his preseason game against the Niners last season when Tolzien played for the San Diego Chargers.
Q: I noticed you were having a discussion with Josh and Alex a few minutes ago while you guys were lifting. Could you share what you guys were talking about?
TOLZIEN: A lot of times we’re discussing plays from the practice: “What was your thought on this play, or what was the look we were getting?” We’re all professionals and we’re all ultimately trying to learn from each other, because some rep that Alex had, shoot, I may have that same rep tomorrow, so I want to learn from what he saw so I can maximize my rep.
Q: The Niners signed Josh Johnson, and now the team has four quarterbacks. How do you feel about your position with the team and where you career is going?
TOLZIEN: You always think of the team first, and shoot, it’s a good thing to have four capable quarterbacks. These are the guys you’re competing against, but at the same time you’re still trying to learn from their reps even if they’re not your reps, or just from them – the way that they’re reading stuff. We’re all in this together and we all want the same thing – to move our way up the depth chart – but at the same time I think we can all get better from learning from one another.
Q: Have you thought about how the preseason reps will be split up between four quarterbacks?
TOLZIEN: Harbaugh always says, “Work and don’t worry.” That’s the way I’m trying to approach it. That’s the best way to approach it. I was in the same position in college, and it doesn’t do you any good to measure yourself against the other guys on a day-to-day basis. You’ve got to be your own toughest critic, and really it’s on your shoulders for you to be accountable, control what you can control and truthfully trying to get better everyday – not just saying it, doing it.
Q: What was the situation in Wisconsin?
TOLZIEN: I redshirted my first year. Going into my fourth year I was slated as the No. 3 on the depth chart going into fall camp. I ended up working my way up to the starting position and starting for two years.
Q: Who was ahead of you at the time?
TOLZIEN: A couple guys. There was Dustin Sherer, Curt Phillips, those were the two guys who were ahead of me, and then we had some young talent that was below me as well.
Q: What do you think is the best attribute you bring to this team?
TOLZIEN: Trying to bring it every day. As a team, that’s when all the pieces come together, if everyone collaboratively is pushing each other, from a positional standpoint, to the offense pushing the defense, to everything in between. I need to know my part and to control what I can control. At the end of the day you don’t want to have any regrets.
Q: Do you feel like you’ve progressed the way you wanted to in this offseason program?
TOLZIEN: I think there are a lot of days where, gosh, I wish I could have had this or that – The Shoulda-Coulda-Woulda Game – but I think in some ways that’s good to be critical on yourself because at the end of the OTAs when I’m looking back I can say, “Although I had these mistakes here and there and whatnot, overall I think it was a pretty good effort.”
Q: When you played that preseason game against the Niners last year, do you remember Aldon Smith?
TOLZIEN: Yeah, he was just wreaking havoc. That’s one of the things that sticks out about that game to me. I mean shoot, it showed during the season, too. Luckily he’s on my side now and I don’t have to worry about that. I just remember him ripping through. I remember midway through the game everyone on our sideline going, “Who is this guy? This No. 99 is pretty talented.” It turns out he is.
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Nice report Grant.
CK was missing in your report. Is he doing alright?
AES, did you see on MSando’s blog that CK’s brother responded to his blog. Interesting…
No Hofe, I did not. Do have a link?
Thanks
AES, here it is:
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/67079/video-challenging-assumptions-on-qbs
Great articles Grant. To everybody here, GO NINERS!!!
He has to be one of my underdog favorites. He lived in the training area last year, they said he was always studying the playbook, and was first and last in the gym. He doesn’t sound proud or above himself. I will be sad if we cut him and he shows a great season with another team, but I think he’s gonna be a good to great QB someday.
Hey Grant, first, my bad, nice article. I got excited just reading it. It’s safe to say that worst comes to worst, Tolzein goes to the practice squad or is he cut for good?
Getting to watch Scott for two years in Madison was a pleasure. Great kid with a pretty good skill set. I think he will be in the league for 10 years because he is steady.
I met a 9er fan from Wisconsin at a 9er training camp in 98 when it was at Union Pacific. We had a great time!
Oh ya, great article Grant, nice read. I dont see you chatting on here much tho! Must be busy.
GC, has been on his game. Much better seeing great reads, but do miss your presence here. Hope you are enjoying some good wine tonight!
Shoot that was a great article :)
How’s Tolzien’s legs? I bet he’d be good in the run and shoot.
@ribico
See my June 7, 2012 at 9:06 am post below.
From what I understand of the run and shoot, Tolzein would not be my first choice of QB’s to run the “run and shoot” offense.
Well shoot, DS. What a waste of interjections coming from that young QB.
Well shoot, DS. What a waste of interjections coming from that young QB. ;)
@DS
That was a joke from Ribico.
Something about this kids quest to be best. He’ll never make Practice sq.
My bet is his work will pay off, someone else gets cut.
Thanks for the great read Grant! I can’t wait to root for this gut now. Love everything he had to say.
Fun to hear about the impression Aldon made on the Chargers’ sideline.
Tolzien is a great guy. ESPN did a piece on him during his senior season at Wisonsin about his befriending a 6 year old boy with cancer. Here is a link to the printed version of the story.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/badgers/64304972.html?ipad=y
Jack
You are correct I am a fan of these kind of stories. To me its part of the makeup that one incorporates into the mold of leadership. I call it “manning up,” and for me its the first criteria I look for in leadership. Now some people are superficial about doing this kind of stuff and I resent that. Others like Tolz its genuine and it makes a difference in peoples live. One can never be bigger then the moment.
Tolzien over Johnson. Mark my words.
Very interesting article. Nice job.
Good interview. Funny how he says “shoot” a lot. Best of luck to Scott.
So happy with our QB depth, hell the whole team is just plain deep!
I’m sure Alex is going to progress considerably this year, but if he doesn’t I’m happy that the next man up will come in and perform well!
I think most of all I’m exited about the things I’m hearing about Kyle Williams, sounds to me like he’s making it nigh on impossible for the team to think about cutting him! Love it! nothing better than a redemption story in my book! Here’s hoping the winning touchdown pass in next seasons NFC championship game goes from Alex to Kyle, that my friends would be beyond awesome!!!
Sweet Redemption!
If we want a QB to come into a game after AS gets injured, I want a smart safe QB to be that guy. From what I gather Tolzein is that guy.
CK seems too eratic and dangerous to me. We won games last year by being the team that won’t beat themselves. AKA no TO’s. Smart calm guys do that better than gunslinger types which I think CK is.
@DS
I tend to agree with you on both points concerning CK and Tolzien.
I am having my doubts about CK being a WCO QB. I think he is more suited for a Norv Turner type offense. In no way am I saying CK is a bad QB. Now Tolzien I am with you on that. He just might be the best fit QB of all four QBs. This is pure speculation at this point as I havnt seen enough of CK or Tolzien to really make any conclusions. From the little I have seen of Tolz, he seems to have that touch that is so important for the WCO. I really hope we hang on to this guy. Practice squad probably but that may be risky.
@undercenter
I see Tolzein as the less athletic/weaker arm version of AS. On the plus side, he will have never gone thru the garbage AS has, so his career path won’t be littered with bear traps every inch apart.
Tolzein won’t take advantage of the vertical speed due to his arm, but if our players are horizontally fast as well, then the coaches can adapt game plans to fit him.
I wrote yesterday I see Tolzein as a Gannon. Not so much in style (Gannon was mobile) but in how I saw Gannon go from team to team being pushed aside for the bigger/stronger/faster guy. At the end, Gannon was better than any of these guys who were picked ahead of him when he finally got a chance in Oakland. If we didn’t have Steve, I wanted Gannon during this period.
undercenter,
This offense is not a prototypical wco. It is very similar to the Norv Turner offense with the play action, etc with some wco mixed in.
That being said, I really think the QB battle is between Tolzien and Johnson for the 3rd spot. It is going to be a good one too. This roster is so deep with talent that some very tough decisions will have to be made and good players will be cut. What a difference a year makes.
Jack
I am really looking forward to the pre season games to watch CK, JJ, and Tolz do their thing. This is one year I am glad to see four pre season games. Like I said I havn t concluded anything as of yet and my thoughts are purly speculation at this point. The depth of this team is amazing not just at QB but most other positions as well.
All good undercenter. I know you are a fan of good stories about the players/coaches. Did you check out the Tolzien story I linked above? Good stuff…
I was simply relaying what Kevin said on the radio. Nothing – or + from me in doing that.
How you get double negative from no negative is a hater skill I lack.
So are you saying that CK and JJ are not smart? Also, when it come AS, you pull the ‘I agree with JH’ card. Why not do the same with other players on the team?
Lets see how things shake out.
This comment was directed at DS94
Nick
That is what people like you do. Where did I say anything about CK/JJ not being smart?
There are very few dumb QB’s. But there is a range of “smartness” and both AS and Tolzein have that more than CK/JJ.
Just like it is accurate to say CK is the strongest arm QB. Doesn’t mean the other QB’s are weak armed. Just compared to CK, they are not as strong.
You like to jump to conclusions a lot. How about you learn to just ask the question before you conclude stuff?
Nick,
Apparently he either watched all of the SD preseason games, or has access to practice. Other than that, none of us has seen enough of Tolzien to make any educated observation of his play.
Wow,
read BS’s statement here. I now realize I don’t need to do a thing to discredit BS, it does it all by itself.
And to boot, now BS has a crystal ball because it is going off assumptions in terms of comparing our QB’s and their intelligence. Based on what?
And where the hell is Claude ( I’ll call you out for posting BS ) Balls? Oh wait, Claude is a Smither and does not call out other Smithers…..
Bay, bay go away. Please come back never.
: – )
That is what people like you do. Where did I say anything about CK/JJ not being smart?
There are very few dumb QB’s. But there is a range of “smartness” and both AS and Tolzein have that more than CK/JJ……. Ds
Lol I’m sorry but I have to post about this one too. So I can prove my point. 1st of all it’s seems the color of their skin means they’re smarter, because I can’t think of how in the world ds would know about “smartness” in qb’ing. This is the same point I made earlier. Ds is a computer football fan. How are they “smartness” ds? Because they scored higher on a test? You have NO clue about AWARENESS!!! That’s what measures qb’s “smartness”. And right now smith is lacking in that department very much so. It’s funny because bay brought up where’s claude and the other “Smithers” to back you up…. They left you on an island, because when the obvious truth is there about smith they vanish. Where’s your little chihuahua onelame today? He’s dumb enough to avoid the questions and repost something else to get off the subject. Watch your ankles everybody. I smell a chihuahua coming soon. Oooo
@Jack
I have a similar take on AS. He needs to improve multiple areas in his game. To his credit, he did seek out professional assistance for throwing mechanics, foot works, and psycho analysis. It remains to be seen whether AS can develop a better pocket presence, better field vision, and transform from game manager to game commander. The 1st two may or may not be coachable traits. They fall in that gray zone – nature vs. nurture. The third – psycho analysis – may actually benefit AS in developing a ‘take no prisoner’ mentallity. This is what Steve Young has talked about regarding AS – that he needs to develop that ‘winning at all cost’ mind set. It remains to be seen how much AS can improve in these areas. We’ll find out soon.
@Bay / MD
You guys make a good point. The Smither posse is not touching this one :)
@ Nick
You make an interesting point on the ‘psych’ aspect. I’ll quibble with the term psycho analysis in this context; I’d offer psycho-self-programming as an alternative. Sigmund Freud not needed.
But your basic premise is right. Solo athletes like Boxers, Wrestlers, Tennis Players, etc need a big dose of this too.
An analogy that might fit for Alex, to build on yours’ and SY’s point, is the difference between Olympic Boxing and Pro. The amateurs need only flick out their punches and touch their opponent with the white leading edge of the glove to score points. A Pro has to throw that punch with speed, precision and malice; and it has to land and sting to score. For Alex, don’t just recognize a chance, instead throw it with attitude and intent to do damage; “Take that!”
Long winded way of agreeing.
md
Why are so obsessed about others when conversing with me? I can hold my own. And have, quite frequently. I don’t go run and hide behind others. You have.
Sigh.
Bay, there is b/s and then there is b/s. I have neither the time nor the inclination to call out every b/s statement I read on this blog. Do you realize how much of my time that would take, especially with all of the crap that Neal posts? I try to limit myself to the most egregious b/s comments, regardless of who makes them, and in my opinion, much more egregious b/s has been posted by the anti-Smith commenters, than by the pro-Smith commenters. So, please, unbunch your panties.
That said …
DS, I am not saying you are incorrect (I do not have enough data to make an informed comparison) but do you have a basis for the assertion that Smith and Tolzien are smarter than Kaepernick and Johnson? Wonderlich scores, scouting reports, anything? That’s not the type of claim one should make in a conclusory fashion without factual support.
Claude
It has been said many times of Tolzein that he is very smart. As it has been of AS. In every blog subject of Grant’s where he brings up Tolzein, he says how smart he is.
The same has not been said of JJ or CK. The posts from Grant among others is focused on how athletic they are. Does that mean that AS and Tolzein are not? No. Certianly not for AS. Just as NO about how fast AS can run. Or the Giants. AS had a number of nice runs in that game as well. Would CK have likely ran for more yards on those same plays? Yes.
Does not mean that they are not smart? Just means that among the 4 of them, AS and Tolzein stand out from the other two. It is like this for any job/career. You have those are just smarter/better than others who are alos there. Does not mean that the others suck or are not smart.
Don’t fall for their trap. Look for a post here where I call JJ or CK stupid or imply it. I’m willing to bet that if I put you in a room with a living Einstein and Newton along with myself (the 4 of us) that we would not be as smart as those other 2. Does not mean that we are stupid or anything like that. Same thing applies here.
@DS:
I know you didn’t directly or implicitly say that Kaepernick and Johnson weren’t smart. Nor did I question the assertions that Smith and Tolzien are smart.
My question is, do you have a factual basis for concluding that they are smarter than Kaepernick and Johnson? Just because writers/columnists haven’t focused on Kaepernick’s and Johnson’s intellects doesn’t mean that they aren’t as smart as Smith and Tolzien.
With regard to your analogy, you don’t know me. Einstein and Newton are simpletons compared to me.
Seriously, if the two people in the room with Einstein and Newton are you and me, then yes, we are not as smart as them. On the other hand, if Hawking and Gallileo are in the room instead of us, you cannot say that they aren’t as smart as Einstein and Newton. Since you don’t know whether Kaepernick/Johnson are DS/Claude or Hawking/Gallileo, you don’t have any basis for concluding they aren’t as smart as Smith and Tolzien.
Claude one of the flaws in Josh Johnson game has been that he has had a hard time over the years with reading defenses and anticipating coverages. Whether that’s lack of experience or intelligence, it seems to labelled to many young QB’s and career backups.
The thinking part of the game as you know is so key to any NFL QB as defenses become more and more complex. Maybe thats the reference when we discuss if a QB is smart or not?
@FDM:
That seems reasonable and because it is tied to performance on the field, it also is relevant. I doubt we have enough data on the 4 in that area, however, to compare them.
Nice Claude! You are consistent and what you said was fair and objective……
claude
If I brought up Galileo or Hawking individually, you would say “smart” within the first 5 seconds.
If we had all 4 in a room, we can solve every problem mankind has/does/will have.
As long as the Wonderlic test is used, that is how QB’s are measured as being “smart”. And both AS and Tolzein scored very well. If what you say about the writers (not saying your not correct) is true, then maybe Grant will read this and take note of it, and tell his colleagues that “Hey, we do tend to always talk about how smart Tolzein is all the time and not say the same ting about CK. And vice versa about athletic ability/arm strength. We need to stop doing that because we are giving the fans the wrong impression on all of them.”
@Bay:
Thanks for making that assessment public.
I suspect, however, that it won’t prevent you from labeling me a “Smither” the next time I call you out for one of your comments.
@Claude
Are you an attorney?
@NickRow:
Sorry, but I don’t see any advantage in revealing too many details about myself on this blog. That kind of information inevitably will become the subject of some sort of personal attack.
I will acknowledge, however, that I have a penis.
But I won’t tell you whose.
@Claude
Translation = YES
Also that comment about your anatomy is just creepy
@NickRow:
Draw whatever conclusions you want to.
Creepy? I thought it was a brilliant spoof on the whole “Is DS a man or woman?” drama that consumed the blog for months.
And it worked on multiple levels.
Nick,
very observant of you. I asked Claude “the defender” Ball if he was an attorney about a year ago. I believe he was. Litigation my guess.
Don’t worry Claude, my personal attacks on your will never touch on your career.
As for you having a penis, so what. At one point so did Lorena Bobbit : )
@claude
Sorry I misunderstood. I thought you were associating attorneys and pricks :)
Claude
If you are looking for more specifics, I can give you the general source of several of them.
1. KNBR – Just before OTA’s Kevin Lynch said that the Niners FO was not happy with the lack of progress CK had made in learning the playbook. Whatever that means.
2. A blog I read several months back on sfgate I believe (which is like 500 blog subjects ago, so I won’t waste my time trying to find it) was about Tolzein. In it, it details how well Tolzein can just pick up a playbook and “get it”. He has virtually no learning curve. I don’t know what you call smart, but that falls under at least one of my definitions. I’m not going to waste time looking back.
And we have heard for 8 years how smart AS is. No need to discuss the source of that with you I hope.
Claude,
are you going to let DS get away with that very vague explanation? That was weak at best.
Claude, approach the bench. I’m going to award you a 30 minute recess so that you and your client can go over his “lack of evidence”. We can reconvene after lunch to go over your findings. Cool?
My suggestion is that your have your client “DS” take an insanity plea. It’s really it’s only option.
bay
My June 7, 2012 at 9:29 am post still applies.
Have you treated everybody in your life like you have here to the point nobody wants to be near you, so you come here and follow those that you don’t like and don’t like you around?
@DS
Niners FO was not happy with the lack of progress CK had made
Do you realize what your double negative statement really means?
@Bay
LOL. insanity plea :)
Lol. Harbaugh apparently likes them. You are funny ds. I would like to know how you got ST has lesser of an arm and won’t be able to go vertical on deep routes with 1 pre season game. If you even watched. Saying you want a safe qb if smith goes down, of course because that’s what smith was last season. That equaled not good. Now your our new coach and onelame can be the GM. Thank god that’s not reality.
Everybody knows Tolzein has the weakest arm. At least those who follow the team and can read.
Im with you MD, I think Alex has the weakest arm of the other three QB’s. Its getting better but after 2 surgeries, you can tell its not a cannon like CK.
It’s called the internet md
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/scott-tolzien?id=2495425
From the NFL combine on the NFL website. Trust it or not. Your choice.
“Overview
Tolzien possesses the football IQ, toughness and enough ability to find a home in the NFL as a backup but likely does not have the physical tools to develop into a starter. Does a good job moving through his progressions, beating pressure by hitting his outlets and moving the chains with short passes. However, he’s less accurate down the field, lacks velocity on deep balls and doesn’t possess a clean release to compensate for arm deficiencies. Displays good drop mechanics, but pocket mobility is only adequate, and he isn’t a threat to tuck and run. Tolzien should be selected on Day 3.
Analysis
Strengths
Takes care of the football. Checks down and throws the ball away. Displays the ability to move to his second and third options. Accurate in the short passing game. Gets rid of the ball on time on three-step drops. Flashes the ability to climb the pocket. Outstanding intangibles and leadership skills.
Weaknesses
Below average size measureables. Lacks the arm strength to drive the ball downfield into tight spots. Deep-ball accuracy is below average. Has a hitch in his delivery at times on intermediate-to-deep pass attempts. Doesn’t possess the athleticism to consistently avoid rushers or pick up yards with his feet.”
It is called the Internet ds. Which explains your “knowledge” or lack there of about football. Your a nerd. You crunch numbers and have no idea what winning or football is about. This is why you are a joke on this blog.
Fdm smith doesn’t have the arm of newton or elway, my point with ds is just because you read it on the Internet doesn’t make it true. Especially a 2nd year player that hasn’t played. If that were the case Brady would be doing something else with his life. Smith is healthy now so I would imagine he would have more strength in his throws, plus using his legs and hips now should put a little more mustard on those balls.
md
#1 comedian!
Gosh. Reading is a problem for you, isn’t it? See the part about arm strength? About intelligence?
You do tend to retort to name calling when actual known facts are brought to your attention. It is a pattern of yours.
Right ds there is no reason to read your trash. You made your point awhile ago.
Yes I’m the #1 comedian. And your my go to joke.
Where is your chihuahua at today? Your buddies left your dumb*** on an island. Not even they can get your back on this beauty. Wheeew! Got to get back to my JOB… Your welcome for the free money. Must be nice ds. Try some sit ups today.
md
Why is it whenever you post, it is an ok time to post?
CK reminds me of a young Randal Cunningham. Randle, best I recall, was very raw and needed more than a year to refine his QB skills, but it worked out; he was worth the wait.
We haven’t seen that much of CK, so I don’t think we have much to go on yet. Let’s re-evaluate at the end of Camp. Oh, and then it STILL won’t matter what One Niner thinks, or Jordo thinks, or I think. Its what JH thinks.
That’s exactly what he reminds me of. Randall C.
Do any of you think PM would be talking, giving tips to JJ/Tolzein? If so he stays in Indy to mentor Luck.
Yes, I do.
DS,
That’s faulty logic. There’s no 1st overall pick QB on our roster that could have threatened Manning for the starting job, so there goes your argument. Luck was such a threat, but AS, CK, JJ, and Tolzien are not.
Faulty logic is your conclusion. Why did Denver ship out Tebow? The only guy fans can scream to be put back in if PM falls flat early on in Denver. Interesting.
By the way PM would be competing for a job against a #1 pick coming off a season leading his team to the Title game.
AS isn’t scared of competition. PM ran from it. Never has competed for a job in the NFL. If ever.
The Colts cut Manning so that point is moot.
Yes houston.
The Colts cut PM. The Niners resigned AS.
Not sure what the 9ers resigning Smith has to do with your initial comment. You made an inference that if Manning were a mentor, like Smith, then he would have stayed in Indi to mentor Luck. You are incorrect in your inference since the Colts cut Manning. He did not have the choice to stay and mentor Luck.
@houston
You don’t think the Colts would want PM there to mentor Luck? Ok. Fine with me.
You think PM wants to earn his starting QB job and not have to compete? He sure found a way not to do it by going to Denver. He could have come here and competed with AS. He could have stayed in Indy and competed with Luck. He did neither.
You keep wanting to inference something about JH not really trusting in AS. Well, you should really wonder why PM didn’t want to compete for a job as he would have had to do in Indy and SF.
I have grown to expect illogical, irrational, unhinged statements from you and the other Smithers but I have to say your comment that Manning chose Denver because he’s afraid to compete with Smith takes the cake. Manning is a 1st ballot hall of famer and Smith is,,,, well, he’s not a hall of famer.
Let me ask you. If you conducted an anonymous poll of all 32 NFL GM’s and asked them the following question:
If both men agreed to play the 2012 season for the league minimum but you could only sign one of them, would you rather have Alex Smith or Peyton Manning?
How do you think the vote would turn out?
Just blaming me. No answers for my real life questions about what actually happened.
Besides, like you said. PM isn’t here. So why defend him for? Are you a Niners fan or a PM fan? Defend your own QB for a change. Might see things a little better.
The only question you asked was about the Colts desire to keep Manning to mentor Luck. Obviously, they didn’t want to keep him or they wouldn’t have cut him. Now answer my question. 32 Teams. How many pick Smith? How many pick Manning?
There is one little fault in your question Houston, for Manning it was all about money. The Niners were interetsed in Manning but again they were not willing to part with the depth they have built and strap themselves cap wise with the money it would have taken to get Peyton.
Remember, the NFL is a business, its not a poll to see who would want or like this or that guy. It comes down to health , dollars, and cents.
FDM, of course you are correct. Just proving a point with DS. The idea that Manning chose the Bronco’s because he was afraid to compete with Smith is asinine. I think people throughout football consider Manning as the far superior QB to Smith. I think Manning believes he is a superior QB and therefore is not afraid to compete with Alex Smith.
Asinine it is then.
The business of football. Not the fact that PM went to Denver and before his plane landed, the only competition for him was immediately being offered to be shipped out.
Your right to an extent HOU, but this is not the same Manning. Surgeries and age have made a lot of teams reluctant towards Manning and I am sure the Broncos are still concerned of how well or if he will hold up for the entire season.
I am sure Manning wanted to go to an organization where he knew it was his job, flat out. Were talking about a guy who is one of the best and he knows this. But with that said, do you think that he has some doubt about his health and whether his body will repsond to the first crunching hit? He has not played in over a year and at age 36, coming off 4 surgeries in 19 months, there has to be a fraction of doubt in his mind until he actually goes thru it.
This is why DEN shipped Tebow out, they didnt want Manning looking over his shoulder. What if he were to get nicked up in camp, the pressure then is all on Manning to get healthy asap and make a return soon. Now they can take their time with him, he does not have to prove anything, maybe he does not have to practice on 2 a days. Its a more comfortbable environment for him knowing he is there guy. Heck, who is DEN backup?
“Obviously, they didn’t want to keep him or they wouldn’t have cut him.”
No. Not true. PM was due a huge paycheck if he were left on the roster by a certain date. I think it was April 1st. Something like $15 million.
I am sure the Colts wanted to negotiate with PM to keep him on the team with less money and to compete/tutor Luck. . PM didn’t want to take less $. He didn’t want to compete with Luck. He didn’t want to mentor Luck. So he said no. Thus he was cut.
@FDM
Denver QB’s on the roster right now:
Adam Weber 1 year $390,000
Brock Osweiler (unknown contract). Maybe it is volunteer work
Peyton Manning 5 years $96 million
Yeah. Top of the line competition in Denver alright.
It was a 28 million dollar roster bonus that owner Jim Irsay did not want to pay. So they let Manning walk.
FDM, I am sure Manning has doubts after his surgeries. If I’m a betting man I say he doesn’t make it through the season. That doesn’t change the fact that a QB of Manning’s caliber is in now way afraid to compete with the likes of Alex Smith.
On your Tebow point, I don’t think Tebow was shipped out to make Manning comfortable. Tebow was shipped out because he’s a subpar QB that Elway and Fox strongly disliked as a player. Elway took the first chance he could get to get rid of him without having to put up with a huge public outcry at his trading.
$28 million!
He would be kicked out no matter what if he thought he was ever going to get all of that money. If he did, PM’s intelligence rating just went down a ton.
Huston
So, who else did Denver bring in to compete with PM? If what you say is true, why not bring in some new competition to replace the competition Tebow would have given PM? Any of those 2 guys I found a challenge for him? Yes or no?
@ DS
re: Denver’s roster: But is it fear? Or just focus?
Denver(Elway) wanted a more classic qb
Denver did not want the Tebow distraction
Peyton has been winning every qb comp since 5th grade, so even coming off injury I don’t believe he was afraid to compete. IMO in his mind he could beat out anybody once his body let him; only a matter of time of recovery.
I very much think he was trying to interview teams and that how much influence over the offense he would have counted as much as the money. BTW, he didn’t need the money, its a pride thing among his peers and to show Indy he’s still The Man.
I think Manning would take any competition be it from Tebow or Smith as an insult and probably would have hindered any preliminary negotiations. When you and DS discuss was there a fear of competition on Manning’s part. I dont think he was afraid, but probably took it as an insult with everything he has accomplished as an NFL QB.
To your point about Elway and Fox strongly disliking Tebow as a player. That cant be true. He was and is the consummate teammate and helped them get to the playoffs and win a game. Having Tebow and Manning on the same team would have created a media circus and Manning would be looking over his shoulder as Sanchez is so yeah I do think it was to make Manning more comfortable. Same reason why the Jets brought in Tebow, to create competiton and have Mark look over his shoulder to keep him sharp which he hasnt been the last 2 years really in NY.
Then why not even try to stay in Indy and compete with Luck? Why not have faith that you can beat AS in a real competition?
I’ve heard and know what you are talking about. I’m just bringing up a fact that PM has never competed for an NFL job. When JH told him he would compete here, he chose not to come here. And PM should have known the Niners were in the middle of resigning all their own players and would not have the room to sign PM to anywhere near $20 mil a year. How are we remotely a finalist? So why bother with the Niners at all if is just about the money?
PM is a control freak who does not want to have to worry about anybody coming on in to take his place. He left his place in Indy knowing Luck would come. He refused to compete here. He refused the Titans very likely because they have a young QB of their own who may threaten PM.
PM went to the only team in the league who were so obsessed about getting rid of their starting QB and had the money to pay him and let him run the whole show.
Everybody thinks every team minus maybe 6 wanted PM. No. PM is like a high performance sports car. Sure, virtually everybody will take a look at it. Maybe even drive (evaluate) it. But hardly anybody is remotely interested in really buying it when it comes down to paying for it. There was no other team in the running. PM just used SF and Ten as chips on his side to get the Broncos to pay whatever PM wanted. If there were no other teams, PM has no negotiating power. Of the 3 “finalists” only Denver was desperate to get rid of their starter. They didn’t even see that they were the ones getting played.
We were never going to get PM. Neither were the Titans. Only Denver was going to cave into PM’s demands. So the control freak went there. He got
1. the money
2. the power to run his offense
3. nobody remotely looking to replace him anytime soon there.
Not true for any of the 3 points on the Niners. And very likely the Titans as well. Only Denver.
Bing Cherries on sale at Oliver’s Market. lol
Go to your local farmers market hof.
They will last twice as long. And if you get to know the vendors, over time, they will give you deals. Also helps to go later just before closing. If the product is still around, you can get an extra deal.
@ Hofe
Cherries!?!?
Hahahaha; off-the-wall in the extreme! You & I are competing with Stan now! Oliver’s, eh? Say, are you the guy selling flowers out on East Cotati Ave for the last 40 years? LOL
Just giving a shout out to the local businesses that advertise here. Freeman Toyota!
Tuna, not that old Bro! lol
So DS let me get thris straight. You believe that Peyton Manning and his 11 Pro Bowls, his Super Bowl win, his Super Bowl MVP, his 2 league MVPs, and his SI Player of the Decade Award picked the Broncos because he was afraid to compete with Alex Smith. In your estimation Peyton Manning chose the Broncos because he was afraid to compete with a QB who wasn’t even signed with the team and was negotiating with another team.
That’s what you’re saying????
Nonsense! Manning chose Denver because he likes Rocky Mountain Oysters & Coors better than he likes Drake’s Bay Oysters and Anchor Steam.
That was classic Brotha
Plus he has an affinity for the GM, another QB that flopped in the playoffs for the first decade-plus until he finally won his first championship ;)
“Nonsense! Manning chose Denver because he likes Rocky Mountain Oysters & Coors better than he likes Drake’s Bay Oysters and Anchor Steam.”
Tuna is in a zone…NICE!!
+1
I’m saying very little. The facts are known. Has PM ever competed for starting gig in the NFL? Yes or no?
Would PM have had to compete for a starting role in SF? If you believe in the team philosophy and JH, the answer must be yes. If it is no, then the whole team knows in the back of their minds now that JH is full of crap. Not a worthwhile risk to me. Maybe to you it is.
Would PM have had to compete with Luck for a starting job in Indy? I strongly think the answer is “yes.”
What does PM’s pro-bowls have anything to do with what he can do this year? He didn’t play at all in 2011, and in 2010, he really didn’t do very well. The only thing that saved the Colts was the annual mid-season/late collapse of the Texans.
PM lost4 straight games in 2010. I saw him flinch, not standing strong in the pocket in one particular game. Was this PM going to get us over the playoff hump when the old PM stank so bad in the playoffs? NO.
Would this PM have been worth the investment price to have him come in and compete for a starters role if he wanted to take a huge pay-cut and sign a Randy Moss/Deion Sanders (Niners) like contract? Maybe. So that is exactly what happened. The Niners “evaluated PM”. They didn’t try to sign him. Usually when big name stars are offered contracts by teams who nearly went to the Super Bowl the prior year, reports would come out about the offer. No such reports were made. Put 1 and 1 together.
DS, I’m afraid you’re beyond saving. Just to be clear, Peyton Manning did not chose the Bronco’s over the 49ers because he was afraid of competing with Alex Smith. That idea is – and I’m doing my best to be nice here – absurd.
Let me ask you another thing…. Let’s look at the timeline –
49ers offer Smith contract which he doesn’t sign
49ers “evaluate” Manning
Smith begins negotiating with Dolphins after her learns of 49ers interest in Manning
Manning picks Dolphins
Smith finally signs with 49ers
Under this timeline, it looks like Smith is the one scared to compete (if there was ever really going to be a competition). He set himself up to sign with another team if the 9ers signed Manning. Did he fly to Miami and begin negotiations with the Dolphins because he was afraid to compete with Manning?
I’ve been saved by JH. JH believes in AS. If you don’t, you’re the one falling. Not me.
Answer the question. Why do you think Smith negotiated with the Dolphins? Was it because he was afraid to compete with Manning?
You first need to answer mine about PM. Is PM the Pro-Bowl guy? Because as you love to point out, TB and JH did see him. Why didn’t they put up big money for him on the spot after the evaluation if he is the Pro Bowl QB? Are they stupid? (Keep in mind that it was known the Niners had a nice fat contract in 2011 for NA to come here from the Raiders. So, they evaluated and offered a contract to him).
By the way, I have written my answer for yours before. So I am getting tired of repeating myself.
“Manning picks Dolphins”
I fond the problem with us here.
In your timeline, things really are completely different. No wonder why you don’t get it.
>>negotiated with the Dolphins?
Houston, other than “one unamed source” from the Denver Post (and there’s local insider info for you) , where do you get information that anything between Alex and Dolphins got to the “negotiation” stage?
One meeting does not equal negotiations. But I guess a Niners workout of PM also indicates they were hell-bent on signing him as well, right?
Time will tell if PM is back to his Pro Bowl form. The fact is the 9ers evaluated him and they were interested in signing him. They did not fly across the country and immediately pull out of the Manning sweepstakes. They flew across country and then sent doctors to examine him the next day. They did not tell Condon they weren’t interested even know they knew the starting point for the contract. They told Condon they wanted to sign him or Manning would not have called Harbaugh to turn him down. As Maiocco pointed out, the 9ers knew the contract perameters and they were interested. They did not pull out of the hunt for Manning even though they risked losing Smith. From Maiocco’s blog:
“At the time, a well-placed source said Manning’s agent had not talked contract specifics with either of the three teams remaining in the picture. But each team knew the “starting point” for negotiations was around five years, $90 million.”
And none of this even slightly supports your theory that Manning picked the Bronco’s because he was afraid of competition. So now I think I’ve thoroughly answered your question.
DS, typo. big deal. let’s not get down to pointing out grammatical errors or I can have a field day with your posts.
@Jack
It’s pointless to argue with DS regarding Alex Smith. He/she will do/say anything to support AS even when evidence is provided to the contrary.
Oops, I meant Houston, not Jack
Well, your refusal to acknowledge the known facts (no contract ever offered, only evaluated, etc) does seem to indicate to me that you might not really know. So, your Dolphin thing makes sense from that perspective.
I know Nick. I guess I’m just in disbelief that anyone could infer that Peyton Manning is afraid to compete with Alex Smith. That notion is beyond the realm of sanity. That would be like saying Albert Pujols didn’t sign with the Giants because he was afraid of competing with Aubrey Huff. It defies logic.
HOU, one question for you? If you were coming off 4 surgeries to the neck in less than 19 months, didnt play an entire year of football because of health, would you want the added pressure of competition to win your job?
houston
You need a new analogy. I don’t follow the Giants.
I dont think any QB or any other player in professional sports is afraid to compete with any of their peers. Competition is what they thrieve on. PM isnt afraid to compete and neither is AS. Its in their blood thats what makes them tick. If any player was afraid to compete then I dont want them on my team.
@FDM,
I’m going to give you my honest answer. I’m really not trying to be facetious. If I’m Peyton Manning and I’m considering the 49ers I would think the following:
Ok. 49ers want me and they say they are also going to sign Smith. How do I stack up to him..
Career QBR- PM 94.9 — AS 76.4
Career TD’s – PM 399 — AS 68
Playoff TD’s – PM 27 — AS 5
Passing Yards PM 55k — AS 12.5k
Championships PM 1 — AS 0
SuperBowls PM 2 — AS 0
SuperBowl MVPs PM 1 — AS 0
League MVPs PM 4 — AS 0
Pro Bowls PM 11 — AS 0
I may never be the same player I was 3 years ago but I think I can be 85-90% of what I was. With that, I’m still twice the player as Alex Smith. This is no competition. I believe in myself and this cat can’t hold a candle to me.
So FDM, I don’t think Manning worries about competition with Tim Tebow, Alex Smith, Jake Locker, or Matt Hassellback. I think Manning might pause if he were to compete with Brady, Rodgers, or Brees but then again those teams would never consider Manning because they don’t have a need at the QB position. That is my honest answer.
What about every other team? Why didn’t they throw contracts on the table for PM then? How come the other 20+ teams just sat there and did nothing? They don’t have elite QB’s. Were they all strapped with the salary cap?
Because there are a lot fewer teams interested in getting him for real.
If CK wins the backup quarterback competition coming out of training camp, do we keep JJ as the developmental QB? Or do we keep ST?
We let JH decide.
But I have seen and read a lot of great things about Tolzein. So, I pick him.
I just think that JJ’s contract is a little steep for a 3rd string QB. Usually the 3rd QB is someone you hope to develop.
@txtree
I disagree.
Which former #3 QB has ever made it big? How many compared to former #2′s? Or guys who just were given the job as #1′s?
There are a couple of roles for the #3 guy:
1. #3 QB is the emergency guy. The guy you never want to see in the game. If he can take a snap and not fumble it or the hand-off to the RB, he’s good.
2. Or the #3 is the guy who is the vet mentor who understands his role to teach the other QB or two how to be an NFL QB. He gets the added bonus of getting paid like a player (hundreds of thousands of $) instead of as an assistant (well under $100k).
If I recall, JJ got a salary just above the minimum the Niners could pay him. So, they can’t go cheaper to keep him around if he is the #3.
Brett Favre was a #3. Mark Brunell was a #3.
Where did you get that information houston?
Walsh kept a Bullpen when he could. Remember Montana-Young-Bono? Bono worked his way up and into a decent FA contract; didn’t set the world on fire, but he was a known mechanic. My loosey-goosey memory is in agreement with Houston on Brunell and Favre. I think Cunningham may have been a #3 QB and emergency punter as a rookie.
Brunell was #3 in GB behind Favre and Detmer. Can’t remember who 1 and 2 were ahead of Favre in Atlanta.
But GB traded Brunnel away. So he was not “groomed” to become the starter in Jacksonville. He was a player traded to become the eventual starter.
Not the same thing in my book. Same thing with Bono. When txtree is talking, I read it as “He is groomed on this team as the starter for this team.” Not for him to learn here for awhile, get traded/FA signed to a new team and become a decent QB there.
Matt Cassell
Tony Romo
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Are were all 3rd String QB
I am not knocking JJ, I am stating from the front office perspective, it may make more sense to keep ST
on which teams txtree?
Tony Romo –Dallas
Matt Cassell — New England
Ryan Fitzpatrick — St Louis
Thanks txtree
1/3 then were groomed by the team which had them 3rd string and they climbed the ladder to the starting position.
Note: Jerry Jones is also the GM and decides who stays and who goes. Romo may not have remained a starter for long after several of his playoff games.
You are forget that all three started at some point for all 3 of their orignal teams, Cassell for almost the entire season that Brady was injuried. My point is that team usually carry the 3rd QB as someone they feel they can devolp into either a solid backup QB or Future Starter. Not the Emergency QB.
“2005 season
Cassel began the 2005 season third on the Patriots’ depth chart behind Tom Brady and Doug Flutie, after beating out two more veteran quarterbacks, Chris Redman and Rohan Davey.[17] He saw his first regular season action in the closing minutes of the Patriots’ 41–17 loss to the San Diego Chargers on October 2, 2005, going 2-for-4 for 15 yards and throwing an interception.”
Seems to me that this happened in 2005. By 2005, nobody was going to unseat Tom Brady. And Matt did not. He was traded to another team (again, he didn’t rise from the #3 to the #1 on the same team), and was/maybe still is on the hot-seat as we speak as concerns about his skill are creeping in after last years disastrous performance by the Chiefs team.
DS
You were wrong about Matt
In the 2008 season opener against the Kansas City Chiefs, Cassel came under center when Brady suffered a torn ACL and MCL in the first quarter from a hit by Chiefs safety Bernard Pollard. Cassel led the Patriots to a 17–10 victory, completing 13 of 18 passes for 152 yards and one touchdown; Cassel’s drives accounted for all of New England’s points.
The day after the game, the Patriots confirmed that Brady’s serious injuries would sideline him for the rest of the season. Although the Patriots did bring veteran quarterbacks Chris Simms and Tim Rattay to Foxborough,[19] they signed neither, and kept Cassel as the starter.
They then franchised him at the end of the year
Cassel, in the last year of his four-year rookie contract, was scheduled to be an unrestricted free agent in 2009. Given the quality of his performance, and the uncertainty over Brady’s recovery, NFL analysts and reporters raised the question of whether the Patriots should, or would, franchise Cassel,[28][29] less than three months after some of those same reporters predicted Cassel would be cut from the team.[30]
On January 4, 2009, ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported that the Patriots would franchise Cassel.[31] The Patriots made it official on February 5, 2009, the first day of the 2009 franchise period,[32] and Cassel agreed to the tender two days later.[33]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Cassel#2008_season
What am I wrong about?
1. Cassel was franchised because the Pats knew that he WOULD NOT be/stay in NE. They knew some desperate team would pay up 2 1st round picks. The Chiefs did.
They traded a player who would never become the #1 to get 2 #1′s. Seems like a smart move to me.
2. Rattay as the competition? Not proving anything to me with that about Matt’s skills.
3. The only way you think Matt will be better than TB is by having a sports job where you talk about it all the time. No way do you keep Matt over TB. They overthink it a lot.
4. Matt got the starting job only due to injury. That isn’t climbing the ladder. That’s skipping rungs.
If it means anything, I knew TB was staying and Matt was going the moment the season ended without a Super Bowl.
What we were discussing….3rd string QB…you said that NE did not keep and develop Matt…Wrong…
@txtree
“What we were discussing….3rd string QB…you said that NE did not keep and develop Matt…Wrong…”
They didn’t keep and develop Matt. They traded him. He did not become the #1 QB. He was there for a year.
My criteria was a 3rd string QB who was developed and became the real starter (not via injury which can happen anytime) for a team. They got rid of Matt before TB ever threw a meaningful pass after his injury.
Matt does not qualify as that player. If he had unseated Tom Brady (like a real competition) then he would satisfy the requirement. That is not what happened. Therefore he does not.
*he was starter for a year*
You keep changing the discussion.
1st it was name a #3 that made it big. We named several.
2nd that the team did not keep them after they devoleped them.
Now it is that they did not unseat the incumbent?
They got a 1st round draft pick for him, I would say that was a great return on devoloping him, after drafting him in the 7th rd.
@txtree
See my June 7, 2012 at 10:13 am post
I describe what I think with the following:
“When txtree is talking, I read it as “He is groomed on this team as the starter for this team.” Not for him to learn here for awhile, get traded/FA signed to a new team and become a decent QB there.”
I hope this clears it up.
Wow, looks like someone needs to take their own advice about admitting when they’re wrong. As the saying goes, “those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.”
Now you putting words in my mouth. Why can you not admit being wrong? Just because he did not replace the QB, does not mean he was not being groomed to replace him? They avoided a QB controversy and got a 2nd round draft pick. So they devoloped a 3rd string QB into a solid starter, and traded him. Does that make hanging on to him a failure?
TxTree, you will not get him to admit he is wrong. He is a walking filibuster.
You are right, and anyone who see’s the thread will know it.
I said what I was looking for. And if Matt was going to being groomed, he sure didn’t stay after showing off his stuff now did he?
How has he done since leaving? How much better is the new “grooming QB”?
Is anybody in NE sitting around now wishing they still had Matt over Tom? The Pats always are penny pinchers. If they really thought Matt was going to replace Tom, they pay him a lot of money as well as Tom with the promise to Matt that you will inherit a great team.
What words am I putting in your mouth? The quote was mine. Not yours.
Whatever.
txtree
Matt is not a solid starter! If he was he wouldn’t be on the hot seat right now. The Chiefs gave him a huge contract and they are stuck with him. Just like the Cards are with Kolb. Both did the same thing. Played well with great talent around them, went to teams that lack such talent, and now show to not be as good as many thought.
Whatever… Awesome response…
BTW
He signed the franchise offer sheet, so New England did commit to paying him. Check you facts….
Again
I said 3rd stringer stays on the same team to become the actual starter (not due to injury). Matt does not qualify. Woulda coulda shoulda don’t count.
And I’m not a Pats fan. Don’t care about them. Have you checked the facts about Matt’s popularity in KC right now? That matters a lot more since you think he is”starter quality”.
What are the chances of him remaining there when the Chiefs miss the playoffs this coming season now that PM will play in a weak division? Maybe he can go back to the Pats and get groomed again.
Grow up…
I asked about keeping the 3rd QB as a development QB. You asked to name any that made it, I did.
You then change to having groomed to be the starter, I give you an example, you then state they would not pay him, I then show that they actually did sign up to pay him.
So I ask again, who would you keep as your 3rd string QB? Someone you think you can develop or an emergency QB?
@txtree
See my post @See my June 7, 2012 at 10:13 am post
Things went south starting with:
June 7, 2012 at 6:00 pm
What we were discussing….3rd string QB…you said that NE did not keep and develop Matt…Wrong…”
To which I replied:
DS94everXev says:
June 7, 2012 at 6:33 pm
@txtree
They didn’t keep and develop Matt. They traded him. He did not become the #1 QB. He was there for a year.
My criteria was a 3rd string QB who was developed and became the real starter (not via injury which can happen anytime) for a team. They got rid of Matt before TB ever threw a meaningful pass after his injury.
Matt does not qualify as that player. If he had unseated Tom Brady (like a real competition) then he would satisfy the requirement. That is not what happened. Therefore he does not.”
After that, you got mad at me. Please look at the whole history next time and read my replies. I explained what I was looking for quite clearly.That way in the future, any “drama” won’t happen.
To anwer your question
I would by default choose the vet. Unless you have JM or something, the vet can pass down all sorts of little knowledge to the other two QB’s such as how to look at game film, how long to study film, etc.
In the Niners case, ,I would not choose the default option. I said earlier that I think Tolzein is a lot like Rich Gannon in how teams just kept passing him by for the guy who is taller/stronger/faster. Look at all the guys who teams ended up going with rather than Rich Gannon, and then look at Rich Gannon once he got a real chanc with the Raiders and tell me which is better. I say Rich Gannon.
In conclusion, my default choice is the old mentoring vet. But for the Niners this year at the present it is for Tolzein (the young promising QB).
Satisfied?
Tx
AS is the starter, CK is the backup, if its a close between JJ and Tolz I think the third spot goes to JJ. The reason being is Tolz is still elgible for the practice squad. Its an interesting dilema that will soon work itself out.
See above…
Do not necessarily disagree with your assesment.
I happen to like both JJ and Tolz, I dont think money is an issue at this point. I can see both of them being developed and both of them progressing up the ladder. Neither of these guys impact the salary cap very much.
Knocken em dead! This comedian has the best joke that never gets tiresome. Wheeew. Have a fabulous day Faithful. Weekend is almost here. Back on the grind. Wheeew!
Ds I have a try out for the A’s will you be my batter, because you are striking out left and right. <———- punch line. Wheeew!
“The defense gives up late leads because they were not large enough.”
Classic!
Where he is as far as his health, learning a new play book while actually having to compete with AS who already has a firm grasp of the play book and took the team to 13-3 reg. season record and comeback win against the NO Saints (Brees broke NFL single season passing record) in the NFC conference championship game in his first ever playoff game, not being able to freelance as much and having to adjust to a more balanced game plan because everything wouldn’t be about him, Peyton Manning chose Denver!
If he were anywhere near being the PM everyone is used to seeing then it would’ve only been about the money! But he’s NOT!
With all those things against him at this point in his career, he wasn’t willing to come SF and compete for the starting job. In Denver he only has to compete with the playbook! Even if they had kept TT, he wouldn’t have been any type of threat to start over PM anyway, whether he’s 100% 65% TT STILL wouldnt’ve started barring injury!
@Mike D
PM would not be leaning a new playbook. He would be the one bringing his offense on over here. I am pretty sure that is what is happening in Denver. JH would take a 2nd seat to PM. We would run his offense.
That way, just like in Indy, when PM gets hurt, there isn’t anybody around who can help the offense out/coach them.
DS, you are beginning to be a polarizing blogger around here. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, just that your posts seem to stand out.
Your latest assertion that PM has never had to compete does have merit.
But you fail to specify why that is the case. Aside from a very small number of QB’ currently playing, there is NO competition.
Houston49er, put up the numbers that support PM as arguably the best QB on the planet.
Hence, PM having to compete with almost any QB for a Starting position is tantamount to Mt. Everest competing with another mountain for height bragging rights.
So yes DS, PM has not had to compete, but he certainly hasn’t attained that status by accident.
Now, we will probably never know the full story behind PM choosing the Broncos over us. But one assumption that should immediately be dismissed, is that he signed with the Broncos because he did not want to compete with AS.
Let’s be clear on one thing DS, had PM come here, your assertion of PM never having to compete would have still have been true!
Go back to when I first posted AES. Bay and 23J were organizing a group to get rid of me. If that is not what you call polarizing, what is?
I don’t remotely care. Nothing good was ever easy. If you plan on spending your life worrying about being polarizing, you know what you’ll do? Nothing.
Did you look at PM’s numbers in 2010 at all? Did you see him actually play in 2010? Did you see PM flinch and pretend that a defender was going to hit just before he let go of a pass to a wide open WR in the endzone for an easy TD which he missed badly because he imagined the defender. I did. So did a lot of GM’s. Now imagine PM behind our always ranked low OL. How long until he starts flinching like he did in 2010? A month? For $20 million. That had best be some month of stats which mean nothing as he collapses in the playoffs assuming he even makes it.
If PM is the best QB on the planet, how come only 1 team put up the money PM wanted then? Seems to me the chance to get the best QB on the planet would entice a lot more than 1 real suitor.
Are you telling me that only 1 team could use the bet QB ever? That sounds a lot more ridiculous to me than me saying that PM didn’t want to compete.
PM didn’t want to compete against AS. He didn’t want to compete against the NFC West defenses. He didn’t want to compete against his brother in his conference. He didn’t want to compete against Luck. If he had, he would either have remained a Colt, or he would have come here. Because there is no way he really thinks the Broncos are a better team than we are.
If it was really about the money, he knew the moment the Niners were “evaluating” him, that they could not realistically afford him. The Niners started the FA period with about $28 million or so. They had signed CR and AB already I believe. That pretty much made it to about $23 million or so after adding in Spillman and several smaller signings. Plus you need to leave some space for the drafted players ($3-5 million?). And more FA’s after the first wave is complete and such.
If PM is as smart as he tells others, he knew the Niners didn’t have the money. And if money was so crucial an issue, why involve the Niners at all. To gain leverage over the Broncos of course. PM was never going to come here. He would never give up control of the offense to JH or have to master a new system.
PM was a dream for people who have not come to grips with reality that AS is the QB.
Good points DS. But your points can certainly be refuted. How do you know if PM made himself available to every team? I would venture to say that PM had the resume’ to be selective in choosing which teams he would play for.
If the majority of those teams you refer to had the resources and the ability to be an immediate contender PM may have widened his scope.
DS:
“PM was a dream for people who have not come to grips with reality that AS is the QB.”
Maybe it’s these type of statements that make you polarizing. The ‘reality’ is that AS was not our QB while the Org was out “evaluating” PM. AS was a F/A and had yet to sign.
Not sure what ‘dream’ you are refering to here.
But the absolute now is that AS IS our QB. Hopefully the PM ‘evaluation’ incident and talk of PM not wanting to compete w/AS fades from this blog sooner than later.
AES
Guess I didn’t do a good job of explaining it.
The things that I imagine would matter to a FA are (no particular order here):
1. Getting what I am worth financially.
2. Going to as good a team as I can. I want to win the Super Bowl.
3. Going into a system which lets me show my strengths and hide my weaknesses.
4. Nice place to live.
He called up Houston first (that’s right, he contacted them, just like he contacted the Niners) and they said “No.” Interesting isn’t it? Houston knows PM better than any other team. They have been beaten by him so many times. PM isthe reason why the Texans never won a division title until last year (when PM didn’t play!). Why didn’t the team that knows the best QB ever not want him when their own QB is going to be coming off of an injury of his own and is not the greatest ever? Between the two, logic tells me to go with the best guy ever over the other guy. They didn’t even think about it. Just “Nope.” You can still find a way to try to keep your current starter, though I wouldn’t. I’d let the new QB come from a competition while PM took control of the reigns for a year or two.
“Maybe it’s these type of statements that make you polarizing.”
Well, I won’t stop these statements. If anybody keeps reading my stuff and stays shocked that I say stuff like this, the problem is theirs. Why don’t they stop reading material that is polarizing? You know what you’re getting.
“The ‘reality’ is that AS was not our QB while the Org was out “evaluating” PM. AS was a F/A and had yet to sign.”
Neither were any other Niner FA’s. Makes the whole point meaningless when you look at it like that. Add to that the consistent message from JH about “AS is our QB.” from the start of the season to today having never wavered.
Check out the link below for how “a solid QB” does not get the same consistent remarks made about him. One month it is “Their stance is a departure from Crennel’s unqualified support for Cassel at his introductory press conference three weeks ago. “Who that [competition] is, I don’t know,” said Pioli.” to “Newly signed Brady Quinn will get a long look, but he’s not going to be on equal footing with Cassel entering training camp.” to “We like Matt Cassel and we think Matt Cassel is a good quarterback.”
Note: A bit about PM: “…said the Chiefs would be “crazy” not to pursue Peyton Manning” Yeah. Because Matt is so much better than the greatest ever.
JH never said anything remotely so contradictory. Though some want to think he did. I will l be very polarizing when dealing with these people. I suggest you skip any conversations I may have with them to not see my ‘polarizing’ nature.
“Hopefully the PM ‘evaluation’ incident and talk of PM not wanting to compete w/AS fades from this blog sooner than later.:
I would like people to acknowledge that they jumped the gun without any real substantial facts first before we bury it away forever.
Link to the Matt Cassel stuff I quoted. Talk about flip-flopping, check this out.
http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/nfl/3237/matt-cassel
“The ‘reality’ is that AS was not our QB while the Org was out “evaluating” PM. AS was a F/A and had yet to sign.”
DS:
“Neither were any other Niner FA’s. Makes the whole point meaningless when you look at it like that. Add to that the consistent message from JH about “AS is our QB.” from the start of the season to today having never wavered.”
No DS, what makes the point meaningless is that the convo involved PM and AS, not the other F/A.’ Nice try at a little ‘shake n bake’ to elude me (lol).
Perhaps Harbaugh had a strong intuition (?) that AS would be back as a 49er when all the dust settled. Seems like the Org had enough confidence that AS could shop his talents around the league and still come back. Sadly, and maybe unfortunate for AS, there weren’t many takers.
@AES
Why didn’t Houston want PM then (whether you think PM contacted them or not, why wouldn’t they go after the guy)?
A playoff team in his own division, who is just a QB away from a Super Bowl? Why did they take themselves out of the running so quickly if PM is as good as you think? Is it because of their starting #1 QB? Doubt it. Houston seemed to do better without him. I mean, that loser lost to the Raiders at home last year! Missing an easy TD pass when the Raiders only had 10 men on the field. Does it get any easier than that? And didn’t Houston win a playoff game without their starting QB anyway? Imagine what PM could do.
I said it before. JH sees himself in AS. TB does not. JH wants AS. He wants him to win. And the only reason why there were not many takers is because the other 31 teams knew they would only be played as leverage if they did try to go after him. And nobody wants to be used like that. Had Denver not been so obsessed with dumping Tebow, PM would have found himself without a suitor willing to pony up $20 million for him, and he becomes the DG of 2012.
I heard it said during FA by many experts that the reason why the only reason why AS is not being contacted by other teams is because of the notion of being used. If AS had entered FA with the same footing as Flynn, he would have gotten a lot more attention than Flynn did. But because it was made perfectly clear to other teams by both AS and JH that AS was coming back, why waste time going after AS? Maybe it worked to AS’s detriment financially. I don’t think he really cares. He is a smart guy with an economics degree, so I figure he would know better than I would about how to handle his personal fiances than any of us here. After all, AS had his big contract already when he was drafted. He does not have a ring. He wants the ring more.
Houston wasn’t interested in Peyton because they have a franchise quarterback. The 6 teams that did have an interest – Miami, Seattle, Arizona, Denver, San Francisco, Tennessee – do not have franchise quarterbacks.
Now name me the 6 teams that had an interest in the Precious.
“I heard it said during FA by many experts that the reason why the only reason why AS is not being contacted by other teams is because of the notion of being used.”
Name one of these experts because I don’t remember hearing that.
The 49ers were geniuses in letting it be known publicly that an $8 million/yr offer was on the table. They knew no other team would be willing to match that. And they were right – no other team was willing to match that for Elite Alex, not even the QB starved Dolphins.
If Smith didn’t care about money, he would have signed the deal that had been on the table for months. Give me a break. He didn’t sign it because he wanted more money and a stronger commitment from the team. He ended up signing basically the same deal, with the same out clauses in it. He could have signed a one year deal, kicked butt and signed a big deal next year. I’m sure the team would have been happy with that. It’s all about leverage, and Smith found out the hard way that he had none. It was a fascinating story about “Ol’ Milky Blues” though, his legend grows with every DS post.
msc
Who?
That franchise QB who never got his team to the playoffs?
That franchise QB who has the best WR outside of AZ to make him better than he is?
That franchise QB who has had an ok D with one of if not the best pass rushers in the game yet still failed to win the division against an ever weakening Indy team?
That franchise QB who, upon getting injured, the team actually improved?
The franchise QB who was on the sidelines as the sub of the sub led his team to victory in the playoffs?
The franchise QB who just couldn’t get past the Colts? Or PM?
Yeah. Definition of franchise QB is certainly not what it once was then.
I heard from one of the guys from ESPN. The network with the reliable reporters. I heard it in the local news. KNBR. SFGATE. PD. Anywhere that followed FA, knew AS is coming back to SF.
Can you please tell me a GM who knew AS would resign and wanted to be used as leverage. Unless that team is in the same division, that GM won’t be a GM any longer. He’d be unemployed. And the Miami owner is a loser. Thus he fell for it.
When the HC and player both say that I want to come back, that means he’s coming back.
msc
Who?
That franchise QB who never got his team to the playoffs?
That franchise QB who has the best WR outside of AZ to make him better than he is?
That franchise QB who has had an ok D with one of if not the best pass rushers in the game yet still failed to win the division against an ever weakening Indy team?
That franchise QB who, upon getting injured, the team actually improved?
The franchise QB who was on the sidelines as the sub of the sub led his team to victory in the playoffs?
The franchise QB who just couldn’t get past the Colts? Or PM?
And, because I can’t point it out enough times, the franchise QB who LOST to the Raiders IN HOUSTON! Against 10 defenders missing an easy TD pass for the win. What a complete loser! If you lose to the Raiders at your home on a play with only 10 defenders and an open WR to win it, you are NOT franchise material.
Yeah. Definition of franchise QB is certainly not what it once was then.
I heard from one of the guys from ESPN. The network with the reliable reporters. I heard it in the local news. KNBR. SFGATE. PD. Anywhere that followed FA, knew AS was coming back to SF.
Can you please tell me a GM who knew AS would resign and wanted to be used as leverage msc? Unless that team is in the same division, that GM won’t be a GM any longer. He’d be unemployed. And the Miami owner is a loser. Thus he fell for it. AS came away with a bit more after visiting Miami.
When the HC and player both say that I want to come back, that means he’s coming back.
@DS
The franchise QB who’s team hasn’t tried to replace him the last 4 years in a row.
I don’t know how Stephen Ross fell for anything considering he wasn’t even willing to pay Smith what the Niners were offering. I don’t know why Smith would visit the Dolphins if he was fully aware that the team was “evaluating” Manning. I mean, if you are looking forward to competing with Manning why are you visiting another team?
@msc
The question/discussion is
“Why didn’t Houston go after PM, the QB and leader of the team that has haunted the Texans for over a decade if PM is really as good as many here think he still is?”
Nothing to do with AS or the Niners.
Thanks.
DS:
“I heard it said during FA by many experts that the reason why the only reason why AS is not being contacted by other teams is because of the notion of being used.”
This is an interesting statement DS. Of the MANY EXPERTS you refer to, can you name just one?
You know that everyone on this blog get’s call out when a seemingly outlandish remark is made.
Also, do you have an idea who was USING AS?
I can only speculate (we all can) why the Texans withdrew their interest. Aside from an ideal of PM’ financial demands, no one outside the FO inner-circle really knows what went down. But I would speculate that like the 49ers, the resources and demands were not attractive for both parties.
We may never have the full story on what unfolded between the 49ers and PM as well. But I still have an issue with the rumor that PM contacted the 49ers. And even if PM did make the initial contact, if the 49ers were not interested they could have told him so over the phone. Flying to NC with G.R. and a team physician certainly does not imply a disinterested party. And PM not coming to the 49ers because he did not want to compete with AS is off the chart preposterous, just to put it as mildly as I can.
And as a FA, AS did have the same ‘footing’ as M.Flynn. The difference is that only one team really showed interest in him. Now, I’m glad we re-signed AS because frankly, CK and Tolz are not ready at this point in their careers to put the team over the top. And you may be right in your assertion that Harbaugh sees himself in AS. I think I could say without any reservation that Harbaugh could work with AS much better than he could have worked with PM had he signed.
Sure they might be interested to get PM. But not without competing against AS and for a whole lot less than PM wanted. Like I said with the high performance car. Everybody takes a look. Not everybody seriously tries to buy it.
Look at the numbers AES. To get PM, this team can’t resign anybody. The public statement the Niner FO said was “We will first try and sign our players.” They did exactly that.
Had they not, the players could never believe TB/JH again. This team would suck if we paid $20 million for PM. We don’t resign the best ST tackler Spillman, or the best punter in the NFL (new contract). We lose our 1/3 advantage in ST.
Catch you later AES.
Good-night!
From Peter King’s MMQB:
“But here are the facts: The 49ers wanted Manning. Harbaugh is parsing words. “Erroneous” that the Niners “were flirting with Peyton Manning?” Come now, coach. Harbaugh and offensive coordinator Greg Roman flew from San Francisco to North Carolina and, in disguise (hoodies covering their heads to avoid a prying iPhoner from photographing them), watched Manning go through a throwing session. The 49ers thoroughly investigated Manning in many other ways, I’m told, and would have been thrilled if he’d called them that Monday in March and said, “I want to come play for you.”
The financial details — pshaw. They would have been worked out. If San Francisco wanted to spread the contract over a couple of extra phony years, GM Trent Baalke could have. And if they’d lost Alex Smith in the process, so be it. Harbaugh is a terrific quarterback coach, and he could have molded a good heir to Manning if Smith had chosen to go elsewhere.”
Your right DS. Signing PM would have limited our resources for signing our own FA.’ But this is the unspoken and certainly the unproven issue that gnaws at me about the PM incident. My intuition tells me (certainly just my own opinion here) that Harbaugh and Co. tried to sell PM with the strong prospect of giving him the best chance at a SB win playing with the 49ers.
I believe the Org put all their eggs in one basket (w/prospect of SB win) hopeing that PM would settle for that, thinking that PM would lower his contract demands, thus allowing the team to still sign some of their FA.’
PM did not budge, and the rest is history.