While we’re waiting for next week’s Mini-Camp to arrive, let’s play a game.
Who are the top-five running backs in the NFL? I’ll play the game first, and then you go.
- Arian Foster – Houston Texans: Led the NFL in yards from scrimmage the last two seasons with 4,072. Foster also seemed unstoppable in last season’s playoffs. He rushed for 153 yards and two touchdowns in the Wild Card game against the Cincinnati Bengals’ 10th ranked run defense. Then he rushed for 132 yards and one touchdown the next week in Baltimore against the Ravens 2nd ranked run D. He did all this while rookie T.J. Yates was the Texans quarterback and defenses were primarily focused on shutting down the Texans’ running attack.
- Maurice Jones-Drew – Jacksonville Jaguars: Led the NFL in rushing yards last season with 1,606 despite playing for a very bad team. Jones-Drew has gained 9,327 yards from scrimmage since 2006 – 44 more than Frank Gore has gained over that same period of time. Jones-Drew turned 27-years-old in March. His best season could be next season.
- Darren McFadden – Oakland Raiders: Averaged 5.4 yards per carry in 2011 before a fluky Lisfranc foot injury ended his 2011 season. He’s the most talented running back in the NFL – no one has his combination of size, speed and youth (still just 24-years-old) – but he’s never completed a 16-game season. If he plays every game next season, there’s a good chance he’ll become the No. 1 RB on this list.
- Adrian Peterson – Minnesota Vikings: The best running back in the NFL since he was drafted in 2007, but Peterson tore his ACL, MCL, and meniscus Week 16 last season at Washington. He’ll probably return from this injury, but will he ever be the same?
- Ray Rice – Baltimore Ravens: Led the NFL in yards from scrimmage last season (2,068). He’s the most valuable player on the Ravens offense by far, but he disappointed in the playoffs, averaging just 3.02 yards per carry in two games against the Texans and the Patriots.
BONUS LIST: Three running backs who I admire but may not rank in the top five anymore. This list is in no particular order.
- Steven Jackson – St. Louis Rams: Perhaps the best running back of his generation, Jackson has gained 12,096 yards from scrimmage and scored 60 TDs so far in his eight-season career. I’ve never seen a running back play as consistently vicious as Jackson does. He runs every carry like his life depends on it, blasting through the hole like a missile. And he does this for bad teams – he hasn’t played in a playoff game since January 2005. He’ll be 29-years-old next season. His best playing days may already be behind him.
- Darren Sproles – New Orleans Saints: The toughest little runner I’ve ever seen. Sproles is 5-6, 190 pounds but he never shies away from contact.
- Frank Gore – San Francisco 49ers: The Joe Frazier of running backs. Gore is one of the toughest athletes I’ve ever seen. He’s not the biggest or the fastest running back, but he’s consistently one of the best. Gore turned 29-years-old last month, and the Niners added two running backs – LaMichael James and Brandon Jacobs – this offseason to help Gore carry the load. But don’t expect Gore to fade away. Like Frazier, Gore would never throw in the towel. He would compete to the death.
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If Frank Gore is the Joe Frazier of boxing, then Foster is Ali and Drew must be Floyd Mayweather. Gore didnot have much in the tank second half of the season, not sure he would be in the top 8. I think he realizes in in order to play more he needs to play less.
I wouldn’t rank Gore in the top eight, either, but I’d put him in the top three of running backs I admire.
I’d say FG is top 10 and even say he is #8. Yes he ran of gas but he is a workhorse and the dings plus his hip slowed him down after week 9.
BTW, right now and based on last years work, I’d put LMcCoy 4th. DMcF has to prove he can stay healthy – shouldn’t be on the list.
Gore is still effective but has lost a step. He had a couple of breakaways last season where he got caught from behind that in years past he would have finished off.
Did any of you see how badly he performed on 3rd down last year?
He had 20 rushes on 3rd & 5 or shorter. He gained 27 yards on the 20 rushes (1.4 ypc). Thirteen of those yards came on one play. Giving us 14 yards for the other 19 rushes or a big, giant, whopping 0.7 YPC. When he was a good back, he was up there with the other good NFL backs around 3.5 to 4.5 YPC on 3rd & 5 or less.
Now he’s one of the worst. It’s time for some of you to face facts, it’s just not 2006 anymore. And no matter how much some of you want to believe Frank Gore is still 2006 Gore, it is an IRON LAW OF FOOTBALL that players go down hill, especially injury-prone, over-used backs.
It’s been like this for a couple of years. He runs great on OUR side of the field on first and second downs when defenses are spread out and playing looser. But as soon as we pass midfield, Gore becomes progressively more ineffective. As soon as we get in the redzone, Gore becomes ineffective. As soon as we get in 3rd down, Gore becomes ineffective.
And look at his average as he gets carries over the time of the game:
1 – 10: 5.1 YPC
11-20: 3.5 YPC
21+ : 2.4 YPC
Fans, writers and some coaches are, as a population, bizarre in their inability to leave the past, good or bad, behind and see how a player is changing over the years. I saw this with so many backs, HOF backs — Eric Dickerson, Earl Campbell, Marshall Faulk, Emmit Smith…
And Gore is doing what they did at the end of their careers — cruising on fumes — and getting undeserved accolades based on what he accomplished in the distant past, not what he’s doing now. Fans (and writers and coaches) who still kid themselves that Gore can play in the NFL at a high level simply haven’t been paying enough attention.
It’s like Walsh never told everyone: Better a Year Too Soon Than a Year Too Late.
@MosesZD:
To be fair, the o-line hasn’t done Gore any favors recently. According to the Football Outsiders’ analysis of offensive line effectiveness, the line has ranked 32nd, 13th, and 21st in adjusted line yards the past three seasons. (The numbers are listed in the order of 2009, 2010, 2011).
I also think that the acquisitions of Hunter, Jacobs and James reflect an intent to rely less on Gore going forward.
Claude
I’d place more blame on the play-calling than the OL. Only 1 OL in recent history could block the defenders consistently when the D was ready for it.
The play-calling also got very conservative as the Niners neared the goal line. Further out it was less predictable.
Claude,
I agree with you on the RB situation. I really think we will see a much larger role and number of touches for Hunter. The speed at which he hits the line is noticeably quicker than Gore.
@Jack:
You may be right, but the drafting of LaMichael James in the second round suggests that Harbaugh has significant plans for him. I am looking forward to seeing what he can do.
Claude, “… the drafting of LaMichael James in the second round suggests that Harbaugh has significant plans for him.”
The only problem with that is that James has not been able to participate in the offseason program, and will be behind come training camp. I think his role will be limited a bit early on and expand as the season goes on. I am anxious to see how they utilize him.
1) Darren McFadden
2) Maurice Jones-Drew
3) Ray Rice
4) Arian Foster
5) Matt Forte
Why do you rank Foster fourth?
I have Foster fourth due to McFadden averaging a yard per carry more, Jones-Drew leading the league in rushing, and Rice leading the league in yards from scrimmage.
Fair enough. Foster led the league in rushing yards and total yards from scrimmage in 2010 and Rice has really struggled in his last four playoff games, for what it’s worth.
I was basing my ranking off 2011 play.
Grant,
Can you do me a favor and look into why comments are not available on the mobile site of Pd.com. also this article doesn’t show up on there either. Thank you! #iliveinmyphone
Actually gore has a history of being caught from behind I do not believe he has lost a step rather people just look for it once your injured he is still a stud and I wouldn’t replace him
I wouldn’t replace him either Ray. Don’t think I ever said or inferred that, but if I somehow did that would be incorrect.
If they can lighten his work load a little by spreading out the carries it could really help late in the year.
If you mean which RB is announced each game as the starter Gore is not being replaced. But, in terms of him carrying the load as the bellcow RB, he has been replaced by a RB by committee approach. I think that should be clear by the additions of Hunter, Jacobs and James. And I think that he has very clearly lost a step … or two.
Hammer,
Frank is notorious for getting stronger rather than weaker with more carries. I say run him more than last year until a playoff spot is secured. Then shut him down till playoffs start.
Frank is comming off what I think.is his second
best season ever, look for another 1200 yards rushing, 6TDs nd 300-350 receiving
“Frank is notorious for getting stronger rather than weaker with more carries.”
T, while that may have been true in years past it wasn’t this past season. His yards per carry decreased the more he touched the ball
Carries 1-10 – 153 atts, 779 yds, 5.1ypc, 7 TD, lg 55yd
Carries 11-20 – 108 atts, 324 yds, 3.5ypc, 1 TD, lg 27yd
Carries 21-30 – 20 atts, 49 yds, 2.5ypc, 0 TD, lg 8 yd
Hammer,
Good stats. I cannot argue with those.
Good Day.
mcfadden never played a whole season of football, yet hes the 3rd best rb in the league out of everyone that has. youv gotta be joking
exactly!
1. Foster
2. Jones-Drew
3. Rice
4. McCoy
5. Peterson
I agree with that rotation, I would not include McFadden either, he has missed way too many games to be in the top 5. I think LaMichael is going to be a huge weapon for the Niners, maybe not top 5 , because he is too small to take the pounding but he is going to be great in certain situations and even a decoy.
1. Arian Foster
2. MJD
3. Adrian Peterson
4. Ray Rice
5. Marshawn Lynch
Hopefully see LaMichael on this list in a few years.
What about lesean McCoy? He looks really good. List in 3 years: LaMichael James, foster, Trent Richardson, McCoy, Peterson. James will be a stud a la Barry sanders. He has a similar build (needs to add a few more lbs) and tonnes of moves – kid will be a stud!!!
McCoy
Peterson
Drew
Foster
Rice
I agree with razoreater. That’s my top five, although in no particular order. I’m not ready to put McFadden up there yet.
I’m interested to see how Peterson rebounds from his injury, and how Chris Johnson rebounds from a very average season.
1.)MJD – led the league in rushing all while playing for a horrible team..also led the league in rushing while every defense knew he was going to get the ball..doesnt get any better than that
2.)arian foster
3.)ray rice
4.)McCoy
5.)Forte
all these guys could be number 1
Adrian Peterson
Chris Johnson
MJD
Ray Rice
LeSean McCoy
S. Jackson
M. Lynch
F. Gore
I think Marshawn Lynch is overrated solely because of that spectacular run against the Saints. No way is he a top 5 halfback. I think Buffalo was smart to keep Fred Jackson over him. Jackson is a better player.
T. Richardson, Mark Ingram, Shane Vereen, and K. Hunter could have monster years.
Pac-12 RBs that could have a solid year:
S. Jackson (Oregon)
M. Lynch (Cal)
Shane Vereen (Cal)
La Michael James (Oregon)
Reggie Bush, and MJD, 2 more Pac 12 backs.
Good call HighPriest, I somehow overlooked those two. I’ll include Javid Best in that list as well.
Nick
Vereen wont get enough carries to be a real impact back. If NE decides to run they will most likely give it to s ridley and vereen is more of a 3rd down back. if he was on a different team maybe cuz the talent is there he just might not get the opportunity.
Also did u leave off Forte because u think he is
a not that good
b done after the injury
c a little of a and b
Peterson
Foster
Johnson
Rice
Forte
Probably the best list I’ve seen so far.
I’m a fan of RBs that are also good receivers out of the backfield. For mine, Arian Foster, Ray Rice and LeSean McCoy get the top 3 spots as they are not just excellent runners but also a great outlet for the QB in the passing game. Of those, I’d probably take Ray Rice #1. Foster benefits from a good RB tandem (and when healthy, possibly the best WR in football and a decent QB) and McCoy benefits from playing in an offense that opens up the field with speed and a bunch of skillful players. Rice has very little going for him – he’s the main man on offense for the Ravens and by some way. Matt Forte for mine is the next best runner/ receiver after these 3.
For RBs that are primarily runners first and foremost but not much of a threat as receivers, MJD is the best – he’s a beast (I’m possibly being harsh on MJD as a receiver too, he’s not bad in this department). If Peterson comes back anywhere near his best he’ll be back near the top of the list again. Mike Turner is also pretty good.
MJD – 100/g is the ultimate benchmark for a RB. 8td’s and a 4.7 avg simply cements why he’s #1.
Arian Foster 94.2/g with 10TD’s and a 4.4 avg is why he’s #2 but 1224 total rushing yards doesn’t get you #1 on this list.
Fred Jackson – 93.4 yards per game is amazing, but when you consider he earned that behind Buffalo’s offensive line it simply deifies logic. Add in a 5.5 avg and 6 TD’s and it makes up for the scant 934 total rushing yards.
Michael Turner – 1340 rushing yards 83.8/g with 11 TD’s and 4.5 per touch on a team that has been struggling to find consistency on offense and has an aging OL.
LeSean McCoy 87.3/g and 17 TD’s on a team that known for passing the ball is impressive. If Vick gets back to 2010 form and forces teams to respect the pass McCoy could have his best year.
The numbers are simply 2011 based. Ranking is part stats, part current situation and part what I could dig out of my heiny.
I’ve got the only legit list here. I’ll bet a nickle to anyone that my RB’s finish higher then anyone elses top 5 in this years season.
You’re on Hank. I am so confident I say we raise it to a dime!
hank
You realize that the stamp to mail that nickel will cost you more than the bet.
lol
I’ll email my paypal info after I win.
Hammer-time,
I vacillated quite a bit about whether or not to include Forte, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if you’re right about that one.
Kings, Heat, PAC man….. Winners for sat.
Until DMC can play more than 12 games he is not a top 5. He is top 5 potential, but has never been able to stay healthy. He’s my top 10.
1. Foster
2. Peterson
3. MJD
4. Lesean Mccoy
5. Ray Rice
6. Jamal Charles
7. Frank Gore
8. Mcfadden
9. Lynch
10. Jackson
Check that. Put Forte at 7 and move everyone else one spot down. Its a top 11 list. Haha
Looks good except for McF. He’s been injured too often to include with that list (to date).
Peterson is still the best until proven otherwise…
2. Foster
3. MJD
4. McCoy
5. Rice
Are we going to do top 5 QB’s. here are mine.
Eli Manning
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Tom Brady
Big Ben
1. ARodgers
2. TBrady
3. DBrees
4. EManning
5. ASmith
I assume you are just pulling my chain that AS is number 5, if Harbaugh or Baulke thought that, why would they go after Peyton and not picking Big Ben who has won two Super Bowls. Also every GM in the league including Baulke, would take Big Ben over Smith who is probably about 22, so I guess that is why you are a Smither.
No I did that for MD. I stated that AS would be top 10 with the new talent and he wanted me to up the anti since he said top 7. All good – all in!
Gotcha !! I’m thinking about Al Michaels.
Do you believe in Miracles!!
As soon as I saw Smith at 5, I knew it had “3rd person” md all over it. LOL
When Hofer picked Smith number 5, thought he needed a MD, the one that evaulates your head.
Neal, MD picks his top 7 – you do the math – he thinks he will be 7, 6, 5, 4, etc. Your thoughts?
*picks AS his top 7*
Need some more shuffleboard, Neal. Get some of the crank out of those old bones.
@ Adam,
Headed to the gym now, maybe some shuffelboard and bingo when I visit my parents in South Fla this summer. I am also Peter Pan, I never grow old, although reading about your high school and college career, you probably are way more banged up then me. Although I tore my knee cap ( pattella ) playing competive softball a couple of years ago. I now have officially retired from team sports.
@ Hoffer,
I will go with AS at number 22 right now, that is where Trent Dilfer put him and if he can get it the top 15 that would be nice improvement . I don’t need to to say this but as you know AS had zero interest in the free agent markek and thank goodness the Niners didnot over pay for him.
Wow, Pacquiao lost eventhough he landed more punches and with more power. I guess – in Vegas – anything is possible.
The judges that called the fight for Bradley had to be the same guys who called Bradshaw down for forward progress.
/chuckle
Jim Lampley said it was the worst scored fight he has ever seen.
Tell that to the Niners’ D. They’ve had a problem with him ever since he came to Seattle. If you think his run against the Saints was the only jaw-dropping display of speed and power in his career, you have simply not been watching him.
Of course not. He played his college ball at Cal, but nobody around here has watched him; good call.
If you’re going to include McFadden and Peterson after being injured then you need to have Jamaal Charles. He averaged over 6 yards a carry in 2010 and he will be back in 2012. I personally wouldn’t put McFadden or Peterson on this list since they are coming off injuries. You have no idea if they will return to form next year. I think my list would look more like:
1. Arian Foster
2. Ray Rice
3. Marshawn Lynch
4. Lesean McCoy
5. Maurice Jones-Drew
I really like Jones-Drew but I’m looking for huge years from Lynch and McCoy. They are in offenses that will use their skill sets much better than Jags will be able to use Jones-Drew next year. So although he is exceptionally talented I don’t think his production will match the guys above him.
Marshawn Lynch should be nowhere near that list. Gore out played him and it seemed Gore was rarely out there much after week 9. Lynch only had TD’s over Gore. Gore had more 20+yd carries and Gore had the 1 game against the Giants with just 6 carries for 0 yards or he would’ve smoked Lynch. Considering he had about 5 yds a carry against the G-men in the post season.
1. Ray Rice
2. MJD
3. McCoy
4. Foster
5. CJ2K – Last year wont happen again. Poor o-line and easy to stack the box with Britt out.
AD, Charles and Gore would be in the discussion without the injuries
I can buy the arguements on 10-11 guys worth discussing for the top 5. I’ve got to have S. Jackson in that mix. One guy who didn’t get enough love from this blog is Forte; IMO he’s even better than Lynch. McCoy is way up there, but if we’re quibbling, maybe he’s not quite as complete as some other backs.
Frank Gore is in my top 8; and that’s without accounting for some of the little recognition and leadership qualities he brings to our team. We here would have trouble measuring some of the other guys because we don’t know them as well. Certainly Drew and Jackson are known for that too. Frank is more important to our team ( as currently constructed) than McCoy would be, but Philly’s system utilizes McCoy brilliantly.
1. Chris Johnson
2. LeSean McCoy
3. Frank Gore
4. Adrian Peterson
5. Matt Forte
@ Latino Heat
CJ’s money year was fabulous and ranked him 1/2 for 2010, but wtf with 2011? Charles, Peterson, McFadden got hurt, so we understand their 2011 numbers falling, but CJ? Enough questions he doesn’t make my top 5; yet. He could prove me wrong in ’12.
I take Frank first. Considering his blocking, pass catching, and straight heart to compete. He has never had the speed to get away, but man does he find a sliver of an opening.
“never had the speed to get away”… see: 49ers v Seattle circa 2009
I don’t see a lot of Lynch (Sea) and Jackson (Rams) here.
Very shocking considering our own PW has those 2 as #1 for RB’s.
Grant, you are over-valuing stats again and not looking at true skill enough. If PW says these 2 are the best, hardest guys to take down and they are not even top 5, your criteria for the list is not the best.
That Texan boy does not deserve such praise. What great D’s does he face within his own division? Indy? He may have had 1 good playoffs, but the NFC West RB’s face tougher run defenses. And the best LB alive and playing has those 2 on top.
PW has alot of experience playing Jackson and Lynch. He has played Foster MJD Forte Rice what one time each (if that) in his career. If that. Foster is without a doubt a top 2 RB in the league. The dude is a stud, regardless of what division he plays in. If you are going to discredit him then you must discredit MJD as well.
@Adam707
But PW is still PW. Such high praise from the best needs to account for something more than stats.
Stats don’t cover everything else. Remember, the Texans have had a true #1 WR thruout Fosters career. One who if you don’t 2-cover, you’re stupid. Can’t get that many guys in the box if you have to 2-cover a WR too often.
I believe he was injured last year, but the Texans didn’t play all that hard a schedule neither. A lot of soft D’s compared to Jackson/Gore/Lynch. So he wasn’t as banged up come playoff time as FG was.
What reason have teams had not to stack the box against Jackson/Lynch compared to Foster? Better calculate that in as well as the opinion of the best LB alive playing today into your evaluation. How good of a blocker (blitz) is Foster? Because Jackson is 2nd only to FG.
I get a feeling PW knows more about Foster than any of us do as well. Call it a hunch. But the best LB studies like mad, so he watches everything.
PS. That TJ Yates kid did what Matt S. could not. Win critical games late in the year (Matt lost to the Raiders…in Houston!). So it wasn’t like he stank and Foster still did his thing. D’s still had to respect the passing game minus their starting QB and 2nd best WR in the NFL.
Adam707,
Good comment. I was about to sau the same thing but you beat me to it : )
Foster had 7 100 yard rushing games, which is impressive considering he only really played 12 games, 4 of which were against NON divisional opponents (Pit 155, Cle 124, Atl 111, Car 109). That kinda foils your little theory DS.
Didn’t FG put up similar stats? Didn’t he have something like 4 100 yard games, playing in less than 16 games?
Pitt run D last year stank. Carolina D..has Beason on it. Enough said. Falcons, don’t know much about them. Cleveland, they just aren’t very good on offense at all. You can wear down the D if they are any good.
What point were you making again Adam707?
DS,
The Steelers run defense stunk last year? They were in the top 8 against the run. Same thing with Atlanta.
You claimed he only had such great stats because his division sucked, implying he only did good vs his division. I proved to you that he played well outside of his division as well. You cant discredit the guy because he played “weak” run defenses. He did what he was suppose to against them. In his 2 years as a full time starter he has had 1600 rushing/600 receiving 18 TD’s and 1225 rushing 600 receiving 12 TD’s (In basically 12 games, one game he only saw about 15 snaps). Say what you want but this dude is without a doubt the best RB in the league. Only comparison is AP. I dont care what PW says about Jackson or Lynch, they aren’t the same caliber as this guy. Jackson 5 years ago was, but not anymore.
Plus he helped get his team to the second round of the playoffs in a season where they were without their #1 WR and their QB.
@Adam707
“That Texan boy does not deserve such praise. What great D’s does he face within his own division?”
That is what I said. Where did I say he only did good against his division? Fact is, you play 6 divisional games each year. So, you play each divisional team twice. If your division has 2 really good run stopping defenses (or D’s in general), you are playing guaranteed 4 very tough games in which it is hard to run the ball. Such is the case in the NFC West.
“Say what you want but this dude is without a doubt the best RB in the league. ”
Kinda mutes the whole purpose of a discussion, then. Doesn’t it?
Where did you factor in the how good the rest of the offense is in your evaluation? I still don’t see it. How can you fairly evaluate a RB who is always facing 8-9 man fronts vs. a RB who is typically only seeing the normal 7? If all you want to do is put up stats, there is no discussion at all.
Think about it this way. What would FG/Lynch/Jackson have done on that Houston Texans team with Jonhson as a WR forcing teams to risk bringing down that 8th man? And what would Foster have done here/Seattle/St. Louis where he is always the focal point of the D and everybody is bringing down 8-9 guys because your WR’s don’t scare anybody? Is he as “studly” then? Are Lynch/FG/Jackson better?
By the way, FG in his 2nd year had about 1,700 yards or so all in 1 season. So, you’re stats for 2 seasons really don’t stand up to that. Do your games totals if you like. It isn’t even close.
I know Adam707. I mention TJ Yates in my post at 10:13.
How do you measure how good an RB is? By how he performs on the field. The whole 7, 8, 9 man box argument is irrelevent. You cant discredit Foster’s performance because he faces 7 man boxes, its not his fault the D coordinators dont defend him correctly. He does what he is suppose to game in and game out. Your arguments make no sense.
“By the way, FG in his 2nd year had about 1,700 yards or so all in 1 season. So, you’re stats for 2 seasons really don’t stand up to that. Do your games totals if you like. It isn’t even close.”
Not quite sure what you meant by this quote because Foster had 2400 total yards 18TD’s in his 2nd season and 1800 total 12 TD’s in his 3rd. Who in your opinion are the top 5 RB’s in the league right now?
Which is it Adam? In your previous post (10:13) you said he:
Had 1600 yards rushing in 2 seasons. Typo on your part?
And I don’t know who is top 5. I do know that in every game PW has ever played, the only time I as a fan hold my breath to see if PW will make the tackle just before impact is Jackson. Not Johnson. Not Peterson. Not Sproles. Not Forte. Not McCoy. Not anybody…but Jackson. And that was before I heard PW give his opinion. So obviously we are seeing something there you aren’t.
And that has to mean more than stats.
“In his 2 years as a full time starter he has had 1600 rushing/600 receiving 18 TD’s and 1225 rushing 600 receiving 12 TD’s (In basically 12 games, one game he only saw about 15 snaps).” This is what i said. Don’t know where your confusion was. 2 seperate seasons one with 1600 and one with 1200. I think you just misread. PW will praise RB’s he plays twice a year for that exact reason, he plays them twice a year. He’s not gonna go out of his way to say something about a player he does not play. No player does. Our DB’s dont comment on Tom Brady, does that mean he is not top notch? No, we simply DONT play them.
Thanks for the explaination.
I’m sure if you asked who the best QB’s in the NFL are, they won’t mention Kevin Kolb, Bradford, what’s his name in Seattle before they mention TB. I bet you’ll get the typical list.
Grant, can you ask the DB’s about best QB’s in the NFL and test this out for us?
Off subject for a bit. But last nights fight was the biggest slap in the face to sports fans I’ve ever seen. It was a take your medicine/Wat are you going to do about it moment in sports, by a sport that has a long history of corruption. If I was manny I would throw up my middle finger and tell boxing I’m done and after screwing me you will never see me fight mayweather now. WOW!!! I’m glad I didn’t pay for that mugging.
Anyone who pays for a professional fight gets what they deserve as far as i’m concerned. Fixed fights is so nothing new that when I hear people get surprised or upset by it my only reaction is “where have you been?”
When a fight is atleast a little close to call I understand, but this was a fight that was so one sided you would think the judges or whoever fixes these fights couldnt fix it if they wanted to, that was the worst by faaaar Ive ever seen. Im sure theyre mad at Bradley for putting them in that spot. lol
Ninermd,
I’m with you brother. I’m sure there have been more dubious decisions in the history of boxing but I can’t think of a worse decision that I’ve personally witnessed. Something is definitely rotten in Denmark on this one. At best, you could say Bradley won 3 rounds. The fight wasn’t remotely close. If I’m Manny, I say I’ll do a rematch but it must be anywhere but the US. If I were Bradley I wouldn’t ever get in the ring with Pacquiao again. If he does, Manny will remove any doubt by knocking him out in convincing fashion. Pacquiao is a much, much more talented boxer than Bradley.
A running back is only as good as the season he’s in. Using prior season stats and examples to list your list of the ‘current’ top 5 best running backs is irelevent. How can Peterson possibly be a top 5 running back when he wont even be starting the season healthy not to mention that he’s coming back from an injury that few if any professional players fully recover from. Listing what he’s done in the past is great for reflection but that doesn’t make him in the current crop of to 5 running backs since he wont even be playing a full season coming up and when he does play he’ll almost certainly not be the same person. Benefit of the doubt doesn’t come into play if you want a legitimate TOP 5 list.
Try a list of running backs that will be the top of the current upcoming season and you might have something of some relevance.
Hammerin Hank,
I agree. That’s how I put mine together, and the reason it is the most accurate : )
Peterson was the top RB before he got injured. Until proven otherwise he still is. I suspect he wont be after this year.
How so undercenter?
In Favre’s first year as QB, Peterson was the main culprit for that NFC title game loss. Didn’t he have multiple fumbles near the endzone in that game? If even one of those fumbles did not happen, and the Vikings settle for 3, they win that game. If he does not fumble at all, that game is over with and NO does not go on. People focus on Favre’s cross-body pass (well it was really numb-skull of him) but those fumbles made it possible for Favre to be a numb-skull in the first place.
See all. FG’s are not the worst thing that happens in the redzone.
“How can Peterson possibly be a top 5 running back when he wont even be starting the season healthy”
For the same reason PManning was in the 2012 top 100…RESPECT. When he is healthy, he is arguably the best RB in the game – can do it all. Some of the other guys mentioned above need to either stay healthy or consistently be a top RB in rushing yds year over year. An example is McF. He hasn’t stayed healthy or had year over year results, but some here think he deserves to be top 5. Heck of a talent but needs to string 2 -3 good years in a row to be in the conversation.
How did that ranking of Manning end up working out?
About 96 million nickels worth hank. That’s how well.
About 80 million nickels too much in my opinion.
380,000,000 million nickels.
Stupid number keypad.
Cannot agree with the decision to rank McFadden that high because there is a significant concern with durability. He has missed too much play the past 1 1/2 seasons, and, although extremely talented and gifted as a runner, you have to be on the field to be of any value to your club. I would place McCoy in the top 5 and/or Forte to go with Foster, Peterson, Jones-Drew, Rice. It will be interesting to see how Peterson bounces back after surgery. It usually takes a full season of play before even the great ones truthfully regain their old form after such a complicated surgery.
http://nfl.si.com/2012/06/08/huddle-up-49ers-must-be-wary-of-overprotecting-frank-gore/?sct=nfl_wr_a1
I disagree. Jacobs/James/Hunter will have their roles. Mr. Gore will be the feature back, but I think his workload is cut to around 50%. Hunter/Jacobs spell Gore while James is the 3rd down specialist and wildcard.
The NFL still has running backs? Seriously, the rules have been tweaked far too much to favor passing. Routine spread and shotgun formations on first down make the game boring.
I liked the older pre-1980s rules. DBs could bump WRs past the 5 yard line as long as the ball is not in the air. DBs and WRs had equal rights to a ball in flight, including running lanes. Those were the days.
QBs and receivers are football players. Rules of contact should be about the same as any other offensive player with the ball.
The more the league pampers QBs, the more long developing pass plays teams install. If teams want an instant 20% reduction in QB-WR injuries, throw 20% few passes per game. Run more.
This is not to say all new rules are bad. Deliberate blows to the head are seriously dangerous. Accidentally grazing the head during a QB during a sack attempt should not be flagged.
Well said, I agree with your take on rules changes
“I think they should make them (QBs) wear skirts.” – Jack Lambert
Exactly!
Im sorry guys, Adrian Peterson is a leg injury away from still being the best in the leauge. If Mjd gas only 44 more yards from scrimmage than my man Gore n Gore lost significant time to injury? Hmmm, yhat tells me if gore was healthy he would blow this list up.
And Gore hasnt lost a step he has always gotten caught from behind. I would still put Gore behind Peterson and Foster. Until he cant get through a whole like he does then hes still the man. If we limit his carries to much they will missuse him. hes a workhorse he still needs 20 to 25 touches a game
Not only has Gore lost a step, looks like he’ll lose playing time as well. With less carries, his numbers will certainly drop this year.
Yeah, probably; but his efficiency (ypc) could improve.
I remember a few years ago Gore would have long breakaway TDs. Not last year.
Lost step or not, his ability to run outside the tackles and change direction has really suffered.
Gore had a 37 yard TD run against the Cards in their 2nd game. He looked pretty fast on that one.
I am not a Frank Gore fan in terms of his running game. I do however have respect for what he goes out and does. In terms of ypg/ypc Frank Gore isn’t a top 15 back. He is consistantly caught from behind.
He was a highlight on a team that had nothing else on it and he perhaps would have been a first ballot HOF back had he played for a team (in his prime) that could actually create holes.
I think this year will be the last we see Frank Gore on the field in pads.
How is McCoy not even on the list?
McCoy
Ray Rice
Fred Jackson!
Arian Foster
Adrain Peterson
Grant, how come you no McCoy on your list? He’s my slam dunk #1. And….Fred Jackson is an underrated beast! He got hurt last year, but was on his way to a monster season. I watch a lot of Bills games up here, and he’s the total package.
Going way off topic (apologies in advance), but if you want to take a break from sports/Niners, check out this video. Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz says that the ‘American Dream’ is a myth:
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/american-dream-myth-joseph-stiglitz-price-inequality-124338674.html
Stiglitz is a hard core lefty and views everything through the prism of “social justice.” If that is your cup of tea you will probably like the book but, you don’t really need it because you already agree with his conclusions.. If you are not of that bent the book will be a waste of time and money for you. It will not change anyone’s mind one way or the other.
You are correct Big Sky. This guy is part of the Columbia cocoon where economics are used to support a political platform. Brilliant guy to be sure but he fits his research to fit his conclusion in support of politicians. Not very admirable.
Upward social mobility (ie. the american dream) is much harder to attain in the U.S. than more egalitarian societies of Europe, particularly in Scandinavia. Those are well established facts, which anyone who professes to know about political economy should be familiar with. Houston9er, if any country in the world can be used as an example, economics in the U.S. has ceased to become an area of rigorous intellectual study, simply because it has become a politicized tool used by the neo-liberal crowd. At its core, economics is largely a socio-political issue. 50 years ago, most universities in the US studied “political economy”. You can’t find that on most curriculums in the US these days. To argue against the neo-liberal economic model in the US is akin to arguing in the 18th century that the world is over 4500 years old (acutally…..some US politicians today would probably take issue with that one…hah)
@Angus, Houston:
I absolutely don’t want to get into a political debate on this blog, and this will be my only comment, but:
(a) It’s not like other economists haven’t fit their research/conclusions to support conservative politicians. I’m looking at you, Arthur Laffer.
<b) As for the idea that "neo-liberals" (not sure to whom you are referring) are solely responsible for dumbing down the study of economics in the U.S., I simply note that it isn't the liberals who have attempted to demonize Keynesian economic theory.
J.T. ‘uh’ O’Sullivan is hoping to make a CFL team: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/10/paymah-hopes-to-pay-his-bills-with-canadian-dollars/
We should hold a support group for all of the former Dorsey, Rattay, O’Sullivan and N. Davis supporters who thought their ‘guy’ should be our starting QB. As soon as Hill is out of the league we can add his name to the group. Even though Smith cost more then any of them and would have been an easier cut to make he’s somehow according to the ‘experts’ on this blog found a way to consistently fool professionally trained coaches into thinking he’s worth keeping around. Either Alex Smith is better then you think he is or he’s histories greatest con artist, which is more likely?
Yeesh, poor Frank Gore gets no love from 49ers fans I guess. Despite playing on a bad team, with bad coaches, a bad O-Line and a different OC every year he has consistently been in the top 10 in YPC and YPG during his career.
Folks say he is injured all the time and yet he has only missed more than 2 games one time. He has never missed a full season.
“He isn’t explosive” or “he’s lost a step” is another common refrain and yet he had TD’s of 38 and 55 yards in 2011.
Too bad poor Frank doesn’t have blue eyes. Fans would be falling all over themselves to make excuses for the guy.
Well this ended up in the wrong spot.
This blog is goofy sometimes.
At any rate Hank, I don’t recall anyone ever liking O’Sullivan and Shaun Hill still has a far better winning percentage as a 49er than Alex Smith. Or perhaps I should say non-losing percentage seeing as Smith hasn’t crossed the .500 mark yet.
By the end of 2010, after 6 years of suck, I don’t blame people for wanting “anyone but Smith.” There was a good reason Candlestick chanted “We Want Carr” and there was a reason Alex was benched 3 times for Troy Smith.
He sucked.
MS: For your conclusion to hold water, you have to maintain that Singletary knew what he was doing. While Alex Smith may have underperformed prior to 2011, he was clearly better than Troy Smith.
Perhaps it is valid to say Alex was appropriately benched the first 2 times for Troy — the first time to give Troy a look and the second to see if Troy could approach the production of his first game. However, by the final benching, Alex was clearly the better choice and Singletary pretty much threw away our chance at the playoffs by choosing Troy.
Additionally, there is a reason that two QB’s in the discussion are out of the league and the other is now a career backup. AS will have a great year with the upgraded offense.
There was a good reason Candlestick chanted “We Want Carr”
Yes, there was. Those people didn’t know jack about football.
… and there was a reason Alex was benched 3 times for Troy Smith.
Yes, Mike Singletary was a horrible coach who had no clue about offense generally or how to manage QBs specifically.
It amazes me that the 49ers fired Singletary, kept Alex Smith, immediately went from 6-10 to 13-3 and the NFC Championship game, and yet some people still cling to the idea that Alex Smith was the reason for the team’s failures prior to 2011.
Claude, absolutely correct. AS had his issues and they were the growing pains of a young QB that were accentuated by poor coaching.
A professional football coach with multiple Super Bowls and multiple #1 Offenses picked J.T. O’Sullivan to start over Alex Smith. Just sayin.
@msclemons:
I agree that neither the offensive line nor Mike Singletary did Frank Gore any favors.
Let me modify that statement slightly by saying that the offensive line has been inconsistent. According to Football Outsiders, the 49ers’ offensive line’s run-blocking has been up and down during Gore’s tenure with the team. Here’s how it ranked each year:
2005 – 29th
2006 – 6th
2007 – 12th
2008 – 7th
2009 – 32nd
2010 – 13th
2011 – 21st
And because this is an Alex Smith centric blog, here’s how the offensive line ranked in terms of pass protection during that same time:
2005 – 29th
2006 – 18th
2007 – 32nd
2008 – 31st
2009 – 26th
2010 – 30th
2011 – 25th
Source: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
Use the drop down window at the top of the page to view rankings from years prior to 2011.
Hopefully, with a full offseason, a non-truncated training camp and a year’s experience in the current system, Harbaugh’s coaching staff can do something to improve the line.
@Houston:
A professional football coach with multiple Super Bowls and multiple #1 Offenses picked J.T. O’Sullivan to start over Alex Smith, who had to go on the IR prior to the start of the season because he had a wire (left over from surgery the prior year) sawing through his shoulder bone. Just sayin.
There, I fixed it for you.
…houston you just dont get it…..
A professional football coach with multiple Super Bowls and multiple #1 Offenses picked J.T. O’Sullivan to start over Alex Smith after a QB competition in training camp where O’Sullivan dominated the underperforming Smith. After O’Sullivan was selected as the clear winner of the starting position, Smith conveniently went on IR due to an injury in practice prior to the start of the season. The injury allowed Smith and Mike Nolan to save their reputations as an NFL player and NFL talent evaluator respectively. The embarrassment of having a journeyman QB who was barely hanging on to an NFL career decisively beat out a #1 draft pick at the all important QB position could have sunk both their careers. Just sayin.
There, I fixed it again. Thx for having me clarify.
@claude
It amazes me that the 49ers fired Singletary, kept Alex Smith, immediately went from 6-10 to 13-3 and the NFC Championship game
and you give all credit to Alex? I guess JH, his coaching staff, and system had nothing to do with the turnaround. Amazing!
@Houston:
Now, you’re just being stubborn.
Yes, it sure was “convenient” for Alex Smith to have a wire sawing through his shoulder bone during training camp. Or do you think that his shoulder just broke on its own from the force of Smith’s throws?
I am sorry that the facts don’t fit your narrative.
@NickRow:
Are you intentionally misreading what I wrote?
Did you read the entire sentence from which you quoted only half? Here, let me repeat the rest of the sentence:
… and yet some people still cling to the idea that Alex Smith was the reason for the team’s failures prior to 2011.
The sentence wasn’t about assigning or apportioning responsibility for 2011′s success. It was about assigning responsibility for the 49ers’ failure in 2010 and earlier seasons. That seems obvious, so why would you twist it into a claim that Smith was solely responsible for 2011, particularly when I have never made such a claim?
@ Houston
Your arguement presumes that Martz made the right choice in selecting JTO as the starter. The advantage of hindsight shows that not to be the case. That year Hill, whom Martz dissed, was more productive and protected the ball better than JTO; i.e. he ran Martz’ system better. How much success has Martz had since he left St. Louis?
Detroit? SF? Chicago? Pfffffft.
I’m just tweaking you a bit claude. You made the statement that all the fans at Candlestick chanting for Carr were idiots and that Smith’s coaches who benched him in favor of other QB’s were bad coaches. It’s always everyone else’s fault. When is Smith responsible for his poor/medocre play?
If you look it up David Carr, has better career numbers than Smith even though Carr’s been on terrible teams with poor coaching. I don’t think Carr is more talented than Smith but their on-field performance has been comparable with the edge going to Carr.
Brotha,
Martz had a lot of success over the last few years. He helped get the 49ers to .500 for the first time in almost a decade even though Nolan/Singletary were the HC’s, then 2 years ago he had Chicago in the NFC Championship Game, and this year had the Bears at 7-3 before Cutler got hurt trying to make a tackle.
@ Houston
Do you think Martz, who hasn’t been a HC or a very successful OC since the Ram job, just might have known Nolan and “Staff” were on a very short leash when he became OC. Now which one, and only one, of the 3 choices, (O’Sullivan, Hill or Smith) was already familiar with his offense. You do the math. He knew the Niner’s needed to get off to a fast start with very little time for much of a learning curve or it was see ya later coaching staff. Self preservation!
@ Jack
I think Mike M is a mixed bag. There was lots of consternation in Chicago and he’s gone now, right? He held stubbornly to a scheme that made it harder on the inferior talent on his OL and the QB took a beating. Many times Martz’ QBs get pummeled.
An upper echelon QB is coming back, acquired FA WR for the offense, making adjustments on OL, but didn’t bring back MM. Hmmmmmmm.
Martz had little success here when he worked with AS; Harbaugh has success. Martz is kind of the antithesis to Harbaugh in his approach to field position and time of possession and coordinating all 3 phases and handling players. I prefer JH’s approach. I haven’t forgotten the ‘show-on-turf’, it was disgustingly effective, but that was a long time ago.
@Niner61,
Martz has been successful and I think Mr. Hammer did a nice job of detailing that success in the previous post.
I think you’ve already done the math for me. Martz, knowing his job was on the line and he had to win right away, thought journeyman JT O’Sullivan gave him a better chance of winning over former #1 Pick Alex Smith. In a decision that determined his coaching survival he was able to cut through all the crap about starting the #1 pick and go with the guy he thought could help win games.
I actually agree with Brotha Tuna on this one. I think it may have been a mistake to start JTO over even Hill who was a better QB IMHO. At the end of the day, we all know Smith is clearly better than Hill or JTO. My original post was only to point out to Claude that all the fans are not “idiots” as he called them. Not all football coaches, announcers, and analysts who point out Smith’s poor/mediocre play are idiots. You can make every excuse you want for any player. Doesn’t make them a better player.
Brotha,
You implied Martz was not successful after leaving St Louis and I just gave you 3 examples showing he was.
Lovie Smith was on the hot seat due to the poor finish after the Cutler injury, and what better way to save your job than fire assistants. You see it all over the league at the end of the year, no different in this case.
And Martz didn’t have success with AS because he was injured. He had his success in SF by making some changes to the offense and bringing in Shaun Hill, and going 5-2 over the last 7 games of that ’08 season.
@Houston:
Regarding the tweaking: Fair enough.
Regarding David Carr vs. Alex Smith: David Carr is the one QB I can think of who played behind a worse offensive line (in Houston, anyway) than Alex Smith. It’s unfortunate that he never was able to overcome the start of his career, and I am always willing to cut him some slack.
While I see some parallels between the two, you’d have to show me how his career numbers are better than Smith’s. Plus, Smith numbers generally have improved each year. Carr, who never had a year as good as Smith’s 2011, stopped improving or even regressed at some point. At the time the fans chanted for Carr in 2010, Carr was clearly on his way out of the league. The chanting was not the expression of informed football wisdom.
Anyway, to the meat of your comment, “[w]hen is Smith responsible for his poor/mediocre play?”
Certainly in 2011, depending upon what you mean by “poor/medicore play.” If you are judging him by the lack of big fantasy football numbers last year, I think it’s ignorant to blame him for the deliberately conservative offense that Harbaugh ran last year.
If, however, you are talking about poor play within the offense dictated by the coaches – low rate of third down conversions, red zone inefficiencies, missed opportunities – I certainly think he has to take his share of responsibility. How much is his fault, as opposed to the o-line, the receivers, the play-calling, etc., I cannot say because there are far too many relevant facts that we do not know. As QB, however, he certainly has to take some of the blame. I also will acknowledge that he is not yet at the place where he can overcome others’ mistakes.
I guess my point is and has been that coaching matters, particularly with regard to QBs. To think that Smith’s performance under Nolan and Singletary is meaningfully predictive of what he can do under Harbaugh is to dismiss the importance of coaching in a QB’s development and performance. If we are going to judge him reasonably, let’s judge what he does in a stable system led by a coach who understands offense generally and quarterbacking specifically.
I think that 2011 supports my thesis. Notwithstanding some serious obstacles (in particular, the lack of an off-season to learn yet another new offense, which is his particular kryptonite), Alex Smith had his best season ever, and in places, showed something special. I don’t think he ever played before like he did against New Orleans.
The team also enjoyed tremendous success in 2011, not solely, or even primarily, due to Smith, but he was part of it and he contributed not insignificantly to the success. Moreover, I think 49ers fans have reason to think that 2011 was not a fluke (although the turnover differential almost certainly will come down) and to be encouraged for 2012 and beyond.
As unexpectedly successful and enjoyable as 2011 was, with the role that he played in that success, I cannot understand why any 49ers fan would walk away from the season bitching about Alex Smith or refusing to give him any credit for what the team accomplished last year. It has to be about something other than his performance.
Although I think that 2011 supports my position, I recognize that it does not establish it conclusively. I’d like to see what Smith can do in his second year with Harbaugh, with a full off-season and training camp, and with the new talent added by Baalke.
I still worry about the offensive line, but it can’t be worse than last year, can it?
Sorry for the overly long comment, but you asked a legitimate question, and I wanted to give you a legitimate/respectful response.
@ Jack
I guess you and I are defining success differently. If its just putting up some yardage stats, then sure, he’s produced improved stats. But if someone’s successful, do they have a series of one & done jobs? Yes, agree, Lovie was on hot seat, so was Nolan when he brought in Martz, but if you’re getting it done, you get asked back.
Respectfully, it looks like we’re going to disagree on this one, and plenty of folks will agree with your points over mine.
In the end, I don’t consider Martz’ time here successful. I don’t blame him for all the losing we went through then, but I can second-guess him plenty.
I’m enjoying the different perspectives here. Houston makes a good point about MM having the Huevos to go with his gut call on O’Sullivan (wasn’t he leaning that way when AS was hurting?) even though it might have been wrong. And there definitely were plenty of politics around all decisions; so I’ll give him some slack there. Martz faced some of the same challenges in Chicago, but those are the offers he’s getting….
@Claude
No, I was not trying to take your comment out of context. Your logic confused me. As we say in physics, Alex Smith was an insignificant variable.
In 2010, he was not the main reason for the teams failures and in 2011, he was not the main reason for the teams success. Therefore, he was an insignificant variable. That could change this year, it remains to be seen.
@Nickrow:
Thanks for responding and clarifying. I will try to make my points with more clarity in the future.
If “insignificant variable” = “not the main reason for,” then I suppose you can say that Smith was an insignificant variable last year, but I do not think his role in the team’s success was insignificant in the the traditional sense of the word.
I’m not complaining about Smith. Just showing my disagreement that fans calling for Carr were not idiots.
Carr and Smith have had a similar career trajectory. They have similar career numbers with the edge going to Carr in several categories. Carr is not on his way out of the league as you suggest and in fact earned a Super Bowl ring as the backup QB with the Giants last year. He’s also signed with the Giants for the upcoming year. I do think Smith has talent and would also make some team a damn fine backup QB some day.
“Smith conveniently went on IR due to an injury in practice prior to the start of the season.”
“Conveniently.” Biggest load of baloney so far.
Haha. Jesus. You wonder why some of you are labeled “haters.” Shark jumping competition starts at Noon.
I suppose Dr. James Andrews conveniently confirmed the broken bone? (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3579991)
@Houston:
I didn’t say they were idiots. I said they didn’t know anything about football.
David Carr took 13 snaps in 2010. He took 0 snaps last year. Saying he is on his way out may have been a slight overstatement on my part, but barely.
Ahhhh poor Adam. Couldn’t you dig up some stats to show Smith really outperformed JTO in the preseason but the “hater” coaches decided to award the job to JTO because of some unknown bias. Perhaps Smith really was more accurate and threw better passes but the line didn’t block or the receivers didn’t catch or the coach didn’t call the right plays. I’m sure you can dig up some stats to prove those points.
I didn’t say Smith’s injury was faked. If you remember the timeline correctly, the 9ers chose JTO the starter after the last preseason game. From the article you linked:
“Smith lost his starting job to journeyman J.T. O’Sullivan in training camp.”
Smith was injured AFTER JTO beat him out but before the season opener. The injury was convenient in that Smith didn’t suffer the humiliation of wearing a uniform on the sideline watching a journeyman, who beat him out, lead the team for which Smith was selected as the #! overall pick. The scouting dept and the coaches were spared the humiliation of having the drafts overall #1 pick appear on the sideline as the perfect example of a huge draft bust for the camera’s to focus on as the target for the reason of the 49ers failures that year Therefore, that injury was convenient for Smith and the 49ers.
Capiche?
@Houston:
Your timeline reads as if Smith’s shoulder was healthy during training camp. It wasn’t.
Once again, overlooking a key fact serves the point you are trying to make. Do you do it on purpose?
@ Claude,
In an interview on the Thursday before his injury, Smith said his shoulder was feeling fine. I suspect the shoulder was causing him problems but I’m only going on what Smith said at the time.
None of that changes the fact that putting Smith on IR saved him from the humiliation of sitting on the sidelines watching JTO lead the team. Convenient. As I said.
@Houston:
Alex Smith had a wire sawing through his shoulder to the point that the bone snapped. The same injury that put him on IR also prevented him from competing for the starting position. It didn’t save him from anything.
Tell me again how it was the unrealistic, factually ignorant perception of Alex Smith from his supporters that drove you to leave the blog?
Houston,
Congrats on posting numerous thoughts with only certain details to slant things your way. I see so many things that are inaccurate with your points on this I don’t know where to start.
Lets start with this idea that O’Sullivan beat out Smith. He did, but it might be worthwhile to include a few facts that led to that result:
1) Alex Smith was coming off shoulder surgery and didn’t start throwing until late april. Meanwhile Hill and O’Sullivan were practicing and learning a very complex offense. One in fact that O’Sullivan was already well versed in.
He won the job because he was the one who had the best grasp of the offense. Smith never had a chance between the rehab, non familiarity of the offense and the subsequent reinjury of the same shoulder.
2) Mike Martz himself stated in an interview awhile back, that Smith never looked comfortable and that he felt his shoulder was hindering him. He was not completely healthy and the fact he had a bone cut in half should pretty much tell most people the problem was pretty serious. Whether you were tweaking Claude or not, your throwaway comments on this issue are ignorant to the extreme.
3) The fans chanting for Carr were idiots. They are fans that just want somebody else for the sake of making a change. It’s a simpleton view of football which is backed up by the fact they chanted this during one of the best statistical games Smith had ever played. They chanted that because they were frustrated Smith fumbled, meanwhile he had a 300 yard game, threw 3 TD’s and completed 65% of his passes. That’s called moronic fan frustration.
Carr had a couple of moderately good seasons in Houston, but never could deal with pressure and threw too many picks. There is a reason he hasn’t started a game in 5 years.
The Troy Smith era was a joke. He had one good game against the Rams and Singletary kept him in thre longer than he should have. Teams discovered pretty quickly that the guy was useless if you kept him in the pocket. Singletary was the last one to figure it out and it probably cost us a shot at the playoffs, which as it turns out was the best thing that could’ve happened.
@ Claude,
Arguments like these are fine. I have no problem with anything you’ve said. The arguments that say Alex is as accurate as Brady or a better QB than Manning are what I find ignorant and just plain silly.
The injury did not prevent Alex from competing for the job. He was in the competition for the entirety of training camp. You are making the assumption that highly skilled, highly respected doctors performed a surgery on an NFL QB and left a wire poking into his shoulder to the point that the bone snapped. That may be possible but I find it much more plausible that the injury is as the 49ers stated at the time. Smith injured the shoulder in the Friday practice before the 1st game.
@rocket
How many Alexcuses can you think of? You guys are very creative in that regard. Alex Smith lost the starting job to JTO. That’s a fact. There’s no need to come up with excuses as to why.
@ Rocket,
So to summarize your post:
Yes, JTO, beat out Smith in training camp BUT…. there were circumstances beyond Smith’s control.
Yes, fans did chant for Carr BUT… they were idiots.
Yes, Coaches chose to play other QB’s over Smith But… they were idiots.
These are the posts that I find “ignorant in the extreme.” Fans are not idiots – with the exception of a few on this blog (You know who you are). They can see when the QB is struggling. Previous coaching staff’s weren’t idiots. They know more about football than you and I combined.
Houston,
If you want to live in your state of perpetual Smith blame, that is your prerogative. Just don’t expect me to take your views seriously when you state opinions that don’t take everything into account.
Yes, JTO, beat out Smith in training camp BUT…. there were circumstances beyond Smith’s control.
Right Houston, and tell me what part of my response you don’t agree with. The part where Smith wasn’t right and wound up with another major shoulder injury? Is that not true? The part where O’Sullivan knew the offense and Smith and Hill didn’t? Is that true? Where am I wrong?
Yes, fans did chant for Carr BUT… they were idiots.
Yes they were idiots. Anyone who would chant for David Carr is delusional. Singletary was pissed about the fumble but still didn’t resort to that. Singletary was a terrible HC and even he knew playing Carr was a bad idea. Fans are ruled by emotion often times, and that was a clear case of it. The team was 0-5, Smith had just fumbled and had it returned for a TD and the crowds frustration boiled over. It was an emotional knee jerk reaction that was ridiculous. Smith almost brought them back but the defense couldn’t hold Philly when they needed to. Actually the defense couldn’t hold in the Saints and Falcon games before that either, but it’s easier to just blame Smith for it all.
Yes, Coaches chose to play other QB’s over Smith But… they were idiots.
So you believe it was a good idea to go with Troy Smith? Sing wasn’t fired because he was a great HC Houston. Think about what you are saying.
These are the posts that I find “ignorant in the extreme.” Fans are not idiots – with the exception of a few on this blog (You know who you are). They can see when the QB is struggling. Previous coaching staff’s weren’t idiots. They know more about football than you and I combined.
So the fans were right and Smith was struggling? Yet he put up the majestic 300 yard game some people attribute to success, brought his team back to within 3 with a couple of TD passes and may have won it had the defense held? Yep the fans were right on top of that.
You are giving credit to the Coaches who played Troy Smith and JT O’Sullivan, yet both Coaches were fired and both of these QB’s are no longer in the league. The great thing about biased opinions is they are easy to shoot holes through because they aren’t based on credible information.
And I guess we’re even because posts like the ones you put up today annoy the hell out of me. Opinions based on partial facts, ignoring the ones that don’t jive with your view and then acting like the people calling you on it are ignorant and drove you from the blog with their biased opinions.
Just once, see if you can post something that takes all the facts into account and make a point based on everything involved. In otherwards try being objective.
@rocket
How many Alexcuses can you think of? You guys are very creative in that regard. Alex Smith lost the starting job to JTO. That’s a fact. There’s no need to come up with excuses as to why.
Hey Nick, how about instead of accusing me of making up excuses, you point out where I’m wrong? I don’t make excuses. I make arguments based on facts. If you don’t agree, come back with something factual to counter it.
@ Rocket,
Here’s an objective opinion for you. David Carr and Alex Smith are basically interchangeable. If David Carr were the 9ers QB last year the 49ers would still have gone 13-3 and made the NFC Championship game. Here are some career stats for you:
Comp % – Carr: 59.7% Smith: 58%
Avg Yds/Att – Carr: 6.4 Smith: 6.4
QBR – Carr: 74.9 Smith: 76.4
Carr put up his numbers on MUCH worse teams than Smith. Carr played behind quite possibly the worst o-line of all time. Fans who were calling for Carr when Smith was having a bad day are not idiots. Carr is as good or quite possibly better than Smith. I’m sure that’s an uncomfortable truth for you since Carr is widely considered a huge bust. Around the league, Smith is comparable to David Carr, Tarvaris Jackson, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Rex Grossman. These aren’t terrible QB’s but they aren’t any more than average. So when you’ve got a guy who you believe will peak at average, I don’t blame a coaching staff for starting a guy like Troy Smith to see if he can give your team a spark. It didn’t work out but then again would Alex Smith really outperform those guys at that time?
….the conclusion = Houston 9er is an idiot
Thx 19er for the well reasoned, logical response. Your contributions to this, and most discussions, will be remembered for what they are worth. Unfortunatley, their worth only lasts a few seconds just before the toilet is flushed.
“If David Carr were the 9ers QB last year the 49ers would still have gone 13-3 and made the NFC Championship game”
And this is your well reasoned, logical response…lol…dude you are and will always be a joke….
Houston,
David Carr? Really? Maybe 5 years ago, but not now. There is a reason he hasn’t started in a long time. As bad as you might think AS is, Carr is worse. Do you not remember how he played in the 2nd half in that Carolina game?
A lot of times as we debate back & forth we’re talking about two sides of the same issue; not really that far apart. But one idea presented here, that SF could’ve gone 13-3 with D. Carr at QB trips me up. I don’t believe that.
The David Carr I’ve seen (Houston 9er probably watched him more than me, but maybe not lately more than me) wouldn’t have protected the ball as well. We only saw DC in a few Preseason moments, but he not only looked bad, he looked progressively worse on each outing. I’d expected him to push Alex hard, and that isn’t what I saw. I need to see him do something, anything, before I’d let that statement go unchallenged.
I will admit that if JH could mold Alex into a competent game manager (I’m comfortable with that label for AS in ’11), then maybe he could’ve with Carr too; but that would be a different and as yet unseen D. Carr in my experience.
If David Carr were the 9ers QB last year the 49ers would still have gone 13-3 and made the NFC Championship game.
… and that’s where stubbornly refusing to admit you are wrong leads you.
I have largely been ignoring this thread, which is the longest one on this blog…and can you guess the subject matter?
But, didn’t houston return from his long slumber saying he tired of the extreme comments that were being posted here? If I’m wrong, I apolgoize in advance. But this is ridiculous. The only QB who was actually on the roster at the time JH became QB was Carr. And both TB and JH said that he wouldn’t be here come TC/season opening.
To compare AS to Carr, is as houston calls it “asinine”. If you respect JH at all, you can’t remotely make that claim. JH dumped Carr who was on the team. He convinced AS and TB for AS to come back here. Seems clear to me that the HC of the year most definitely does not see the two as equals to me.
And these two (AS and Carr) are comparable how?
Here’s an objective opinion for you. David Carr and Alex Smith are basically interchangeable. If David Carr were the 9ers QB last year the 49ers would still have gone 13-3 and made the NFC Championship game.
Do you honestly believe this, or are you now just reaching for anything to disparage Smith? David Carr hasn’t started a game in 5 years. He was awful in the limited time he played with the 9ers which is why Sing went with Troy Smith when Alex got injured. It’s also why Harbaugh wanted nothing to do with him when he got the job.
Comp % – Carr: 59.7% Smith: 58%
Avg Yds/Att – Carr: 6.4 Smith: 6.4
QBR – Carr: 74.9 Smith: 76.4
Carr put up his numbers on MUCH worse teams than Smith. Carr played behind quite possibly the worst o-line of all time.
No he didn’t. The Niners didn’t have an Andre Johnson on their roster to throw too. The Olines were both horrible. Carr failed because he lost his nerve after taking so many sacks. Smith has persevered through a far worse situation.
Fans who were calling for Carr when Smith was having a bad day are not idiots.
Carr is as good or quite possibly better than Smith.
I’m sure that’s an uncomfortable truth for you since Carr is widely considered a huge bust.
You’ve lost it Houston. You’ve let personal feelings cloud your judgement to the point you’ve just made one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve seen on this or any other forum. I’m not usually one for insulting other people but this is over the top. Carr is barely hanging on to a job in the league, hasn’t started a game in 5 years and hasn’t been good in the limited times he’s been called on, but in your view he’s as good or better than a starting QB who was 9th in QB rating and took his team to the NFC Championship? Wow. Just wow.
Around the league, Smith is comparable to David Carr, Tarvaris Jackson, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Rex Grossman. These aren’t terrible QB’s but they aren’t any more than average. So when you’ve got a guy who you believe will peak at average, I don’t blame a coaching staff for starting a guy like Troy Smith to see if he can give your team a spark. It didn’t work out but then again would Alex Smith really outperform those guys at that time?
I’ll agree with the comparison to Fitzpatrick, but the other guys you listed don’t belong in the discussion. Two of them are on borrowed time and one will probably be a backup in Seattle.
Smith would have outperformed Troy Smith because he did outperform Troy Smith. T Smith had one good game and then proceeded to complete less than half his passes and play some of the worse football I’ve ever seen. Sing’s mistake was putting too much stock into that one game and hoping T Smith could duplicate it. If he goes with Alex, there is a good chance they win the game against the Rams and make the playoffs, but I’m glad he didn’t. I’ll take that loss to get Harbaugh.
I know it seems like a stretch for many to say Carr is as good as Smith. I realize that statement seems like heresy to many Smithers but Why is that idea even controversial since they’re stats are so similar. Is it because the perception is that Carr is a bust but Smith is not? People don’t want to admit Carr and Smith are so similar.
Someone wanted objective and I gave them indisputable facts about their career stats which show they are very similar QBs. I think you can also make the argument that Carr has been on worse teams with perhaps even worse coaching and yet his numbers are close to or better than Smith’s in certain areas. The SuperBowl Champ NY Giants think enough of Carr to make him the Vice QB. He’s one breath away from being the Giants starting QB and they are happy with that as they just re-elected him. With Harbaugh’s coaching who says Carr couldn’t reproduce the season Smith just enjoyed which finally moved him from the category of bust and put him in the category of competent game manager.
We’ve had this argument ad nauseum over several years about whether or not Smith is any good. Let’s find some comparable QB’s and get a real appraisal. I found 1 comparable in David Carr. Who else is comparable?
@ Rocket,
You are wrong. Carr played behind much worse lines than Alex Smith has ever seen. One of the starters, Steve McKinney, said it was the worst line he had ever seen on a football field. He said that line was worse than the line he was on in college.
Houston,
You are wrong. Carr played behind much worse lines than Alex Smith has ever seen. One of the starters, Steve McKinney, said it was the worst line he had ever seen on a football field. He said that line was worse than the line he was on in college.
Did you see the rankings for the 9er Olines posted here? I disagree not with the fact the Houston Oline was bad, but that you think it was much worse than the 9ers. The numbers don’t back it up.
Come on guys
We actually had a decent blog about the subject matter (RB’s) here without it becoming another AS blog.
Yeah, I guess the drama comments at the end of last week is a much better subject matter?!! lol
As you like hof. Just my advice. See ya later
Every blog is about Smith. You know that.
@Adam
But for a bit over 100 posts, it wasn’t. And I gave hof a hard time because he recently told one that he always brings up AS, but one kept it to RB here.
Kinda nice to discuss offense and not AS. Should have been here for that Adam.
DS, good for you. I wasn’t the first to bring it up here today and I’ve posted/commented multiple times regarding RBs, FG, McCoy being top 5, etc, etc. My point is not *always* AS. So good try…
Not trying. Simply reporting.
Never said you didn’t discuss non-AS. But I’ve read this blog almost as long as you and one have been here. One has discussed non-AS. Thing is, hardly anybody replies to those posts of his. Only his AS posts. So, if he is to have any real conversations, he can’t do it if people don’t reply to those non-AS posts. People only deal with his AS posts, so that is where his focus is. Why don’t you ask him non-AS stuff? See what happens.
Different perspective hof.
Arguing your choice of words (convenient), Meat. Not participating in your straw man setup.
And by the way, a wire left in after the first surgery (before JTO ever got there) that sawed through and caused a break doesn’t constitute an injury AFTER JTO was selected. Obviously a condition that existed well before that but whatever.
JTO was chosen to start (for the most part) because he was familiar with Martz’s offense in Detroit. I’m sure Smith performed about as well as you could in camp with a broken bone in his shoulder. How’d that 2008 season turn out by the way? 7-9. Brilliant. Got any JTOscuses?
“The injury was convenient in that Smith didn’t suffer the humiliation of wearing a uniform on the sideline watching a journeyman, who beat him out, lead the team for which Smith was selected as the #! overall pick. The scouting dept and the coaches were spared the humiliation of having the drafts overall #1 pick appear on the sideline as the perfect example of a huge draft bust for the camera’s to focus on as the target for the reason of the 49ers failures that year Therefore, that injury was convenient for Smith and the 49ers. ”
Wow. Can’t help ya there. More shark jumping. Whacked.
Blog magic.
This was supposed to be in response to an asinine comment above but somehow ended up here!
Poof!
Adam
Come on, I thought you were objective and neutral regarding Alex Smith. You’re last response implies that you are a full blooded Smither. Are you Alex Smith himself or a near relative of his? You seem personally offended by what Houston said.
Neutral as in neutralizing the generalizations and assumptions passed off as fact?
My position on Smith has always been the same. As long as he’s here, he’s the guy. And facts are facts. Simple.
The negativity sucks. Tired of these nabobs (I’ll call them the “Ten Percenters” – in honor of Lynch’s poll question today). I want me some football! :)
@NickRow:
I won’t speak for Adam, but you don’t have to be a Smither to be offended by willful ignorance.
And let’s face it, do you really think anyone who disagrees with you about Alex Smith is objective or neutral?
Nick,
That paragraph that Adam reposted has nothing to do with being a Smither. It’s complete fiction being used in an argument against a player.
I stand up for Smith when it is warranted and in this case it is. When people go over the top the other direction (Smith is better than Manning for example) I’ll argue the other side, but this statement by Houston was biased unsubstantiated nonsense. Insinuating that a serious injury was convenient because it spared the player and team humilation goes beyond the usual partisan views on this blog, and that is tough to do.
PD should give me a job. My blog posts get just as many responses as Grant’s do. ;)
Haha!
To be fair, the “Alex Smith = Hits” axiom has been true since 2007. Skinny Post briefly interrupted the trend with his “angry bird” posts in August 2010.
Here’s all that needs to be said guys:
“Either Alex Smith is better then you think he is or he’s football’s greatest con artist, which is more likely?”
Cause I cant think of any other explanation how someone that so many people are convinced sucks continues to be the a starting QB in the NFL. How many starting QB’s for the NFL are there in the entire world? But Smith has found a way to fool the ‘actual’ experts into thinking he’s somehow better then he is??? yes, that’s very likely…. by the way anyone who says that Alex Smith sucks is blatantly saying even if they are too simple to realize it that they are smarter and have more football knowledge about the quarterback position then Jim Harbaugh. Is that what you truly believe, you know more about NFL QB’s then Jim Haraugh…really? Really really??
You do realize Rex Grossman had a starting job last year, yes? Not to mention Kevin Kolb, Tavaris Jackson, Blaine Gabbert, Chad Henne, Curtis Painter, Mark Sanchez and the corpse of Donovan McNabb.
Lots of crappy quarterbacks keep getting chances because they had a good game once, or they were a high draft pick or simply because there aren’t very many good QBs out there.
There are only at the most 16 starting QB’s in the NFL during a week of regular season play. Alex Smith is one of those 16 and has been far more then anyone you wasted your time listing except McFlabb. My point isn’t that there ahve been undeserving starting QB’s my point is that Alex has been consistently named that started for practically the past 7 seasons now, so if he sucks then he’s been fooling a hell of a lot of people. Trying to compare that to someone who has maybe a dozen starts in their career only says you missed the point.
I know it might look like I said 16 QB’s but that is an error on your screen. It actually says 32
In between benchings and injuries Alex only has 66 career starts. Grossman has 47 (and a SB appearance), Sanchez has 64 (2 championship games), Henne has 34 in only 3 years.
The point remains the same – lots of lousy QBs keep getting chances. Even Kyle Boller and Matt Leinart got chances last year. Alex is unique in that he keeps getting chances on the same team thanks to a massive pay cut and top tier QBs turning down the 49ers year after year.
“Cause I cant think of any other explanation how someone that so many people are convinced sucks continues to be the a starting QB in the NFL.”
I believe the term is: vocal minority. That’s the 10% in that poll over on the Chronicle’s blog.
Just because they’re the loudest and most obnoxious doesn’t mean they’re right or that what they’re saying is the prevailing wisdom. If you’re here long enough you’ll see that the “sky-is-falling” folks are almost always wrong.
Take the two ends of the bell curve with a pinch (or twenty) of salt. Nuts are nuts regardless of the issue.
Hey Houston, maybe that professional football coach with multiple Super Bowls can re-unite with J.T. now. Oh, they are both out of league? How sad. Or now that he is at liberty, maybe the current Niners team can resign J.T. so he can once again battle for the job he “won” over the incumbent.
Why are we even having this idiotic discussion, other than haters to continue expressing their hate in ever more novel and irrelevent ways?
…Frank Gore is the undisputed number 1 RB ….
Are you serious? As Niner fans we all love Frank but, there has never been a point in his career when any objective, rational observer would have called him the undisputed number 1 back. He’s been a very good player for a long time but, best in the league? Are you kidding? If you are serious, you win the preseason award as the number 1 homer.
@bigsky
This is a Niners blog. Where fans participate. If you are looking for un-biased opinions, why come here? Go read articles by journalists (or only Grants opening) who are supposed to be unbiased. Fans, by their definition are biased. We say we will win all the time. After a decade of torture, we actually have a team which can win.
And what is so wrong with bringing up FG? He is the franchise leader in rushing on a team that has sported some decent RB’s. That means something.
If you can’t get support at home (homer in a Niners blog), where can you? And why knock somebody who is supporting, you know, players on the team we claim to like/love?
What is your criteria for RB’s? Because I bet FG will have more of them than not.
Ds…. Just shut your trap. You can’t support someone’s opinion on the bad in smith. Hypocrites get no respect. And I don’t want to hear about your rose colored world. I’m still betting you would love to have chilo on that O-Line…
Big Sky,
oneniner does not rank his top players by performance. Rather by how much he would like posters of them in speedos hanging on his wall.
BTW Alex is a top player according to oneniner too.
+1
…yes i am serious…Frank Gore is the number 1 RB in the league……its not even a debate!!!!
Top five needs to be based on a combination of performance, versatility and the ability to hang on to the ball.
Rice
Jones Drew
Lynch
Foster
McCoy
Forte
Mendenhall
Johnson
Now you have a second tier group that are still elite but either cannot catch the ball, fumble too much or just cannot stay on the field because of consistent injuries.
McFadden
Charles
Peterson
Now for you HOMERS, Frank Gore can drop into the 12-15th in the league category. Frank dropped too many balls this last year. Lacks the speed to get outside. Has too many negative yard runs to be considered top 12 IMO. He gets his average up by ripping off a long run every game. That masks his carry by carry inefficiencies. My biggest problem with Frank being ranked higher though is simple, the other elite backs can take it to the house when they hit open field. Frank quite frankly has not been able to do that for the last couple of years. Love Frank, but lets be real.
To even bring up AS as a top ten QB is incredibly Homerish. Dead last in too many categories. Most important ones are scoring and moving the chains. Glad the king of Alexcuses “hofer” listed him top five. Makes his agenda shine through crystal clear.
Gore and S.Jackson don’t crack your top 11? Mendenhall better? Wow, OK, Bay. I have a different take on that. What I hear and read from the players doesn’t support that.
As to Mr. A.Smith, I think we’re all pretty clear on your opinions already. : > )
“Frank dropped too many balls this last year. Lacks the speed to get outside. Has too many negative yard runs to be considered top 12 IMO.”
Bay you and I agreed during the year in 2011 that FG has lost a step. I also believe part of his performance the 2nd half of the year had to do with his hip. Now, fully recovered, I believe he is top 8. Yes he did drop passes, but nobody runs better than him between the tackles. With better RG play (ABoone) and more competition, FG will have an outstanding year. Additionally, I agree with Jack, MLynch is rated too high on your list. But again, these are all opinions. Go 9ers!
Dead last in too many categories.
Again with the exaggerations. Name them.
Really Claude,
how about yards per game for a full time starter? How about scoring for a full time starter? How about 3rd down conversions for a full time starter.
I can’t believe you asked that question.
Claude,
you don’t get a pass here. You made it seem like I exaggerated. I told you the areas in which Smith ranked at the bottom.
Just shows you have jumped onto the other side with both feet and are in super defend mode at all costs now.
Excuses will follow shortly I guess right? Those are usually what come next.
@Bay:
You just qualified your statements.
Bay, everyone on both sides (supporters and other) have stated AS needs to throw the deep ball better, run more often than take sacks (the one you and I discussed the most and you forget), take chances throwing the WRs open, etc. I’ve even heard the most ardent AS fan here state that as well. I don’t see the issue here. I just stated what you did. The major disagreement (tell me if I’m wrong) is the upside some see versus others. JH must see it or he could/would have made changes (even other than PM). Finally, with upgraded talent around him and great teaching coaches, he gets the chance to succeed even more so. If not, JH will go to plan B. Go 9ers.
@Bay:
Sorry, I was responding to multiple comments at the same time and did not see your follow up before I posted my response.
Yes, you have identified areas in which Smith finished last, but you have now qualified your assertion by limiting the population. You also haven’t supported the claim by showing or linking to the actual stats. Assuming that you aren’t going to do so, I will note the following.
Although I haven’t had time to look up the actual stats, my memory is that while Smith and the 49ers ranked near the bottom on 3rd down conversions, they weren’t last. I don’t know where Smith ranks in terms of conversion percentage on 3rd down passing attempts, but I’ll bet you don’t either.
As for yardage and scoring, I assume you mean passing yards and passing TDs. Because of my disdain for fantasy football, I wasn’t even thinking of those numbers. I tend to think in terms of yards/attempt and TDs/attempt when evaluating QB effectiveness. We are just going to have to disagree about the value of and need for volume passing numbers and about whether you will ever see such numbers from a Harbaugh offense.
Again, I haven’t looked at the stats, but if you are correct that Smith’s numbers in those categories trail all other “full time starters,” then I withdraw my claim that you exaggerated.
That said, wouldn’t the more meaningful stat be yards/pass attempt and TDs/pass attempt? Otherwise, you run the risk of punishing Smith for the fact that Harbaugh runs a conservative offense.
Claude,
Here are a broader range of stats with a link. It’s a mixed bag, but at least it makes it a little easier to decipher the info. I put the similiar passing/rushing stats next to each other to make comparisons easier.
Alex Stats:
#31 in passing attempts, #4 in rushing attempts per game
#29 in passing completions
#2 in passing incompletions
#14 in passing completion %
#27 in passing yards per game, #7 in rushing yards per game
#16 in yards per pass attempt, #13 in rushing yards per attempt
#21 in yards per completion
#17 in passing TD’s per game, #12 in rushing TD’s per game
#19 in passing TD %, #9 in rushing TD %
#30 in passing 1st downs per game, #10 in rushing 1st downs per game
#29 in passing 1st down % (conversions), #7 in rushing 1st down % (conversions)
#30 in passing play %, #3 in rushing play % (*The Niners had an almost 50/50 split)
#19 in passing TD %, #9 in rushing TD %
Team stats:
#19 in team TD’s per game
#14 in red zone scoring attempts
#23 in red zone TD’s per game
#30 in red zone TD %
#7 in Special teams points per game
#1 in Field goal attempts per game
#1 in Field goals made per game
http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stats/
@BigP:
Thanks?
Do I assume you think the stats you selected support Bay’s position?
Or are you making a different point?
Claude,
I posted them because you both made points regarding the offense and the stats are easy to find on the link I provided. You can take what you want from them, they don’t really show me anything I didn’t already know. I’m sure you could both find points in the stats that would validate your arguments. I tried to arrange the stats in a manner that you could easily view the information side by side. Like I said, you can take what you want from it. I thought you would like the stats and link because it addressed some of the concerns you had about selectively choosing stats to aid your argument.
Pretty middle-of-the-road:
16th in net passing yards
16th in pass completions
17th in pass attempts
14th in gross passing yards
16th in net passing yards
12th in passing touchdowns
15th in comp rate
17th in yards per pass
And then there’s the bad:
1st in sacks taken
1st in sacks for loss
24th in net yards per pass play
Good:
8th in QB ranking
5th in 2 pt conv.
7th in completions against Top 10
6th in passing TDs against Top 10
7th in net passing yards against Top 10
4th in completions in the last 4 weeks of the season
Bunch more of these things to list.
Take-away? Some good, some bad, some average. Looking at the splits though, Smith should play top-tier talent every week. He seems to thrive now in the big games against better opponents.
@BigP:
And you leaving out QB rating, interception % and other stats wasn’t a case of selectively choosing stats?
#31 in passing attempts (conservative offense)
#29 in passing completions (conservative offense)
#27 in passing yards per game (conservative offense and bad play)
#17 in passing TD’s per game (conservative offense and bad play)
#29 in passing 1st down % (conversions) (bad play)
#14 in passing completion % (middle of the road)
#16 in yards per pass attempt (middle of the road)
I see conservative game planning combined with a less than stellar passing game. The 1st down passing conversion % is the big red flag. If you are going to use adjusted stats, you should present the other side of the coin with the sacks. Many of the sacks were due to Smith holding onto the ball too long in addition to poor line play at times.
BigP,
Claude has a link that shows the number of sacks based on time from snap that somewhat disproves the holding onto the ball theory.
I think some of that falls on him either not recognizing a blitz pre snap, or not getting out of the pocket fast enough. My issue with the sacks is that they have made it so easy for the QB to throw it away that seeing all of the sacks and lost yardage is frustrating.
Claude,
My exact words were “I thought you would like the stats and link because it addressed some of the concerns you had about selectively choosing stats to aid your argument.” Did you not have an issue with Bay regarding which stats he was using to make his point? These are your own words: “Yes, you have identified areas in which Smith finished last, but you have now qualified your assertion by limiting the population. You also haven’t supported the claim by showing or linking to the actual stats.” I gave you all of the stats (let you form your own opinion), a link and your trying to get into a pissing match with me because you didn’t read my comment correctly. Lol, whatever dude.
Jack Hammer,
There is a link for everything that absolves Smith of any wrong doing. The bottom line is he did not get rid of the football in time fairly often last season, whether it was pre-snap reads or audibles or not recognizing pressure.
“Alex Smith had his best season in the league last year, but ranked just 22nd in QBR. Why? Well, Smith did his best work because he was so risk averse. He limited INTs, but often at the cost of holding onto the ball, taking a number of needless sacks. The jury is still out on him — with the added weapons, if he’s not better, San Fran must look for more, with Colin Kaepernick waiting in the wings.
– Trent Dilfer (who is an Alex supporter and former NFL QB)
At the risk of being labled a Smither I have to say that after watching a number of games again on NFL Rewind, there was an inordinate amount of pressure up the middle given up by the Oline last year. Quite often there was little time to stand in the pocket because of it. That’s not to say Smith didn’t cause some of the sacks, he did, but when pressure comes up the middle there is not a lot a QB can do.
I’m hoping Boone becomes the solution at RG and in a hurry. This Oline can be elite if we get better play from that spot and the cohesion is solid with a second year of playing together.
The o-line obviously deserves a lot of the blame for the sacks, but so does Smith. He struggled through his progressions and reads at times, but his pre-snap recognition of the defense was horrible at times. I do believe that will be one of the biggest improvements in his game this year and it will help cut back on the sacks.
Here are just a few examples (if you have NFL Rewind, I suggest you go watch it) of sacks created by Alex Smith. There were numerous others through out the season. If I ever find the time, I’ll go back and note all of them:
Vs. Cinci
1st and 10, 1st QRT, score 3-0 Cinci, AS drops back, VD open, AS doesn’t even look at VD who was open ~8 yards right in front of him, Smith gets sacked for a 5 yard loss, sets up 2nd and long, and kills the drive
3rd and 14, 2nd QRT, score 3-0 Cinci, AS drops back, both FG and DW are open in the flat, instead AS holds the ball too long and gets sacked, 4th down.
BigP,
I agree. There were a number of times Alex didn’t make the right read and it resulted in him taking sacks. Hopefully with a full offseason, and the answers that are built into the offense, that improves this year.
@BigP:
I gave you all of the stats (let you form your own opinion), a link and your trying to get into a pissing match with me because you didn’t read my comment correctly.
But you didn’t give me all of the stats. Not so surprisingly, the stats that you left out are ones in which Smith ranked near the top of the league.
I didn’t misread your comment, and I understood exactly what you were doing.
@rocket, BigP:
I am curious to know how, without knowing the 49ers playbook, you are able to determine with any certainty that a QB “struggled through his progressions and reads”?
I also am curious to know how one determines that a QB’s “pre-snap recognition of the defense was horrible.”
@BigP:
There is a link for everything that absolves Smith of any wrong doing.
No, there is available data that one can study before forming an opinion as to responsibility for the disturbingly high number of sacks given up by the 49ers last year.
Your assertion that Smith takes too many sacks because he holds on to the ball too long simply is not supported by the available data. In 2011, the 49ers gave up long sacks (> 3 seconds after the snap) at the league average rate. By contrast, they gave up short sacks (<2.5 seconds after snap) at a rate almost twice the league average.
This is not to say that Smith never took a sack because he holds onto the ball for too long. The examples cited by NickRow may well two such instances. But you know that limited anecdotal evidence doesn't trump statistical evidence. The fact that your grandfather smoked all his life and didn't get cancer doesn't disprove the statistical correlation between smoking and cancer. Similarly, the few instances in which Smith as sacked because he held onto the ball too long doesn't change the fact that the primary reason for the large number of sacks in 2011 was the offensive line.
@claude
I’m certainly not saying that the O-line was stout and weren’t responsible for most of the sacks. However, re-watching some of last year’s games indicates the Smith did contribute to some of the sacks – by either holding the ball too long or the offense being in 3rd and long.
@NickRow:
I have no doubt that Smith is responsible for some of the sacks he took last year.
I also did not mean to suggest that you were blaming all/most of the 44 sacks on him. My comment was directed to BigP, and I probably should not have brought you into the discussion by mentioning your name.
I am curious to know how, without knowing the 49ers playbook, you are able to determine with any certainty that a QB “struggled through his progressions and reads”?
I don’t profess to knowing the playbook Claude. The observations are my opinion only. I’m not talking about progressions. The problems I noticed were when Smith didn’t pick up where the blitz was coming from and wound up taking a sack. We know he largely had two plays to choose from and then would decide which to go with at the line. I noticed a few instances where it appeared he made the wrong decision, but I admit I could be wrong. Without knowing how much control Alex truly had, all I can do is base my opinion on what I saw before the play and how it unfolded. It appeared at times that Alex was slow or unable to diagnose the weak point in the blocking scheme and rectify it.
As I stated above, the biggest problems I’ve noticed in rewatching some of the games is that there was too much pressure allowed up the middle. QB’s can deal with outside pressure by stepping up in the pocket, but if you can’t step up, you are dead in the water. The pocket protection has to improve this season.
@rocket:
Thanks for the response. My comment was directed primarily at BigP, but I included you because you addressed the issue.
It seems to me like you are concluding that Smith didn’t properly adjust to the defense simply because the offensive line subsequently was overwhelmed and he was sacked. I don’t know how one distinguishes between Smith’s failure to adjust the blocking properly and other players’ failure to execute the adjustment without first knowing what adjustment Smith called for.
Moreover, identifying and rectifying the weak spot (singular) in the blocking scheme last year may have been difficult because it wasn’t like there was only one weakness. In addition to the regular pressure allowed up the middle, Davis often was like a turnstile. To be fair, he did seem to improve as the season went along, so there is some hope for this year. Still, there were far too many times in 2011 when he was soundly beaten.
And it wasn’t like opposing teams needed to blitz for the protection to break down. The Ravens overwhelmed the offensive line all game, and they rarely brought more than 4-5 guys. Then again, Chilo Rachal had to play a lot of snaps in that game, and he was of little more use than a traffic cone.
Claude,
To clarify, I think there were times when he needed to call a hot read or go with a run and didn’t which led directly to a sack. I’m guessing this will improve with more offseason time to work on the offense. It’s tough to have everybody reading the same thing with no time to practice.
You are correct that quite often opposing defenses didn’t need to blitz to get pressure and in those cases there isn’t much the QB can do.
Claude,
I gave you the link to the stats. You got butt hurt because you took it as a shot at Smith and it wasn’t. As far as pre-snap recognition, when you see seven or eight guys at the line of scrimmage, ready to blitz, your responsibility as a QB is to audible or get rid of the ball quickly.
“As for yardage and scoring, I assume you mean passing yards and passing TDs. Because of my disdain for fantasy football, I wasn’t even thinking of those numbers.”
Followed by:
“I tend to think in terms of yards/attempt and TDs/attempt when evaluating QB effectiveness.”
It’s like a dog chasing it’s tale.
A Rodgers 11.15
D Brees 14.28
T Brady 15.66
T Romo 16.83
M Stafford 16.17
E Manning 20.31
M Ryan 19.51
P Rivers 21.55
C Newton 24.61
R Fitzpatrick 23.70
M Sanchez 20.88
A Smith 26.17
The Niners also were #16 in yards per attempt. I hope you feel better now, lol.
And what’s wrong with being homerish on a 49ers’ blog?
I’ll take a homer over a guy who hates on the team’s players anytime.
claude balls says:
June 11, 2012 at 8:05 am
And what’s wrong with being homerish on a 49ers’ blog?
I’ll take a homer over a guy who hates on the team’s players anytime.
Hates? Or tells the truth? Because someone says smith needs improvement. They’re a hater. Get lost. You can’t handle the truth. As far as fans calling him Alice or anything besides his name I agree, but I’ve personally seen you attack someone for stating facts about smiths play. Not the character. Another hypocrite with his head up one players a**. Get real fraud!
@ninermd:
No, I meant “hates.”
I understand that you and oneniner have a history, and that it obviously colors your perception of the Alex Smith “debates” on this blog. But let’s be clear. With the possible exception of oneniner (and I don’t recall him ever doing that), no one on this blog has ever referred to anyone else as a hater merely for suggesting that Smith needs to improve. That’s simply not remotely close to an accurate description of what has gone on in this blog. And it’s certainly not true that I have called anyone a hater merely for saying that Smith needs improvement.
I’ve personally seen you attack someone for stating facts about smiths play.
Links or GTFO. I have no idea to what you are referring. I may have “attacked” someone for making up facts or misquoting statistics, but I have never attacked someone merely for stating a fact about Smith’s play. Show me where I did or admit you made that up.
I don’t know what got your panties in a bunch this morning, but you are off the rails again.
Claude, “no one on this blog has ever referred to anyone else as a hater merely for suggesting that Smith needs to improve.”
You are joking right? That happened to me on more than 1 occasion last week alone.
Jack, I’ve been around a lot longer than you and I haven’t seen that example of “hater” used here. More often it’s starts off being a debate and then escalates into what transpired late last week. You were a participant. I’ve learned to stay out of that nonsense.
Jack:
Show me, and I will admit I overstated my point, but I suspect you did more than merely suggest that Smith needs improvement.
You certainly have gone much further than that in the past.
Moreover, the commenters who tend to get labeled as “haters” are commenters like 23welcher, Bay, Neal, msclemons, and others who go far beyond merely suggesting that Smith needs improvement.
Thank Claude for the mentioned, the Smithers or I call them lovers of AS are a very sensitive group and if you don’t join the support that AS is a great QB, we are haters, I don’t hate Smith, he is a nice guy, actually I don’t hate anyone on here. I feel sorry for a few.
Claude/Hofer,
It was after a response to Grant’s post last week about the Top 5 play calls. I gave him another play that was a good call and got the response below. Funny thing is that Hofer decided to join in too, hmmmmm.
Prime Time says:
June 4, 2012 at 6:38 pm
There it is, a hater who just couldn’t resist to find a positive, well written article for only this dumb a$$ to bring up another slant on Alex.
Jack you need better hobbies or a labotomy, something to keep your mind off hating on Alex.
Now some other hater out there tell me who starts this garbage? Not even 20 comments in and this moron starts to turn the thread sour already, classic!
Claude, so you don’t have to go back and look it up here is the comment which generated that response.
“For #3 you should substitute the first play in the Baltimore game. Walker lines up wide right and motions in toward the line and runs a deep corner route. He is wide open after the play fake, but Smith checks down for a 4 yard gain to Davis instead.
This is a perfect example of where Smith needs to take his game for the offense to improve in 2012.”
Claude you are the paste and copy guy. Big one again and look at your own history. I didn’t know who you were not did I care until you jumped and picked a side and involved my name or butted in to a post I was in.
@Jack:
I don’t think PrimteTie is calling you a hater merely because of your innocuous “needs improvement” comment. As I read it, he appears to suggest that your comment is not innocuous because your pre-existing status as a hater taints the comment. In other words, his comment presupposes that you are a hater. Has he called you a hater before?
As I re-read the foregoing, I realize that this entire discussion is quickly becoming absurd. Ninermd’s half-baked comment does not deserve this much followup.
Your comment was innocuous and not that of a hater.
I’ll revise my comment to ninermd:
With limited exceptions, people on this blog do not label other commenters as “haters” merely for suggesting that Smith needs improvement.
*PrimeTime
@ninermd:
That’s what I thought. You made it up. That’s weak.
I didn’t know who you were not did I care until you jumped and picked a side and involved my name or butted in to a post I was in.
Is this relevant to anything we are discussing?
Claude,
When did I ever say I hate Smith?
@Jack:
I didn’t say you did. The reference to your “pre-existing status as a hater” was my interpretation of what PrimeTime wrote, not my personal opinion.
Bay,
Are those top 8 in any particular order? I can’t see Lynch as #2, or Top 5 for that matter. He played well in a contract year, but will fade back this year.
@ Adam,
Polls are just Polls. Until their is actual election or actual season, none of it really manners. We can state our view and you can state yours. I hope I am wrong and Smith can take us to the promise land. We are so good and deep in most positions, you hope he just can come through and be serviceable. I just think with Green Bay, Giants and New Orleans that have Hall of Fame QB’s and we don’t even have a top 15 QB or you can argue a top 20 QB, it won’t shoot us in the foot.
No idea what you’re talking about. Who’s being elected to… what-what?
If you’re talking about the Lynch poll, it’s about as accurate as it gets with these things. Can’t vote twice, etc. Are you saying it doesn’t matter because it doesn’t support your prejudice?
Hmmm… maybe the haters aren’t intelligent enough to log in and read the Chron? (Oh wait, that’s my prejudice.)
On the other thing: I hope you’re wrong too. The most vocal Negative Nancys were proven wrong the whole 2011 season. I look forward to that again. The heavy-duty big mouths getting shut up is almost as fun as watching the actual beat down on the field. You probably missed that part – Lowell’s blog still worked then.
Here’s a philosophical question for you. Why not skip all that ego stuff, admit that you don’t know (none of us know a damned thing, so don’t feel bad,) and be a “49er Faithful” to start with? Hope for the best? Root for the guy to succeed? Why not? Doesn’t hurt anything. If he wins, your team wins, right?
All the negative, standard pap that the haters like to spew is mostly inaccurate “feelings” in any case and is probably just designed to get under people’s skin. There’s always a Johnny Raincloud somewhere around who is more than happy to stir the pot (or smoke the pot in probably a case or two.)
Don’t be that guy. :P
“Glad the king of Alexcuses “hofer” listed him top five.
Bay you know exactly why I stated that and it’s in the string of comments as a f/up. MD picked AS to be top 7 – that means 7, 6, 5, etc. MD wanted me to up the ante and ranked AS top 5 for his benefit. Relax and chill a bit. You are way to serious.
BTW, I’ll be a King of Alexcuses or whatever if the 9ers win the SB!!
All in baby!! Whheeeeww!! lol
The “Haters” need to hurry on up, they’re losing badly in the Chron’s poll: http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2012/06/11/poll-can-alex-smith-lead-the-49ers-to-a-title/
Probably has something to do with reading comprehension, not visiting news sites, and not actually understanding much about anything but meh… whatever. :P
@Adam:
Clearly, Kevin Lynch’s readers are not real fans.
Yeah, nearly 90% must be out of touch. :P
Tired of the chattering nabobs. Ready for some football!! :D
Of course the 49ers can get to the Super Bowl with Alex Smith. The Ravens did it with Dilfer, the Bucs with Johnson and the Bears with Grossman. It’s just a lot easier with a great quarterback.
The 49ers have a great shot at making it to the SB this year. The defense is special, the special teams and running game are solid and the passing game… well it can’t get much worse than 29th, right?
All arrows are up for the passing game because there simply isn’t much down left.
@msclemons:
You forgot to include Eli Manning, “the lucky game manager” in your list.
Haha. Lucky Game Manager!
Like it. I don’t care for Eli, he’s overrated in my opinion.
@Adam:
“[L]ucky game manager” is msclemons’ non-ironic description of Eli Manning’a playoff performance. You and he may share the same opinion of Eli. He thinks that Eli contributed virtually nothing to the Giants’ two Super Bowls, having performed “wretchedly” and “poorly” in those games, and that he performed dismally in the playoffs both years.
I disagree. I think Eli Manning performs better in the clutch than just about anyone, and his playoff performances in each of the Giants’ Super Bowl runs was a major factor in the team’s success. I am surprised to see that you think he is overrated. I think that, until recently, he has been underrated.
Sorry Claude, I’m with Clemons on this one. Eli gets a lot of lucky breaks, and isn’t all that special, in my opinion. That Green Bay playoff game was a perfectly incredible example – just throw the ball up in the end zone and bank on someone catching it… I could do that in high school! :P
I think he’s fairly average with a good team around him and his fair share of lucky breaks.
His brother is the best QB in the family (although I’m really stretching my memory cells to remember much at all about Archie and the Aints.)
Just my opinion of course. :P
It’s all perception on how you view Eli. I can see how some view him as lucky but I am with Claude on this one. Eli is unflappable and it’s a rare quality to see in a QB on a big stage. The special ones have it and Eli has it. He will make mistakes, but it doesn’t phase him and that’s what sets him apart.
JTO, really? I’m not finding that string to be a compelling arguement. JTO didn’t succeed anywhere; he looked even worse at Cinci after he left here; lack of discipline. So who’s the dope? The OC in that case, IMO. The single competitive advantage he had was familiarity with the system.
Fair criticisms of AS can be made, but not by invoking Martz & JTO. Alex’s body of work is what it is, but bad coaching decisions along the way have certainly contributed. Martz’ track record is mixed despite his dazzling offensive successes.
Damn! Bad taste in my mouth just remembering that era. Phooey!
Tuna, agree. JTO isn’t in the league and MMartz never could find his groove again after inheriting a loaded Rams team in 2000. Yes he appeared in some playoffs but lost the big game. Like I said, it helps to inherit a loaded team.
JTO’s not even in the league anymore is he? I don’t think he’s been around for several years now.
claude balls says:
June 11, 2012 at 6:30 am
There was a good reason Candlestick chanted “We Want Carr”
Yes, there was. Those people didn’t know jack about football.
Lmao!!! Yeah thousands of fans are idiots, except you and 7 nerds on here Claude. You know it all. You know more than onelame who thinks our GM is going to turn chicken salad into
Chicken s***! You are another example of being a legend in your own mind.
There you go again, confusing me with oneniner. Just because he and I disagree with those who hate on Smith ignorantly, it does not mean we do so for the same reasons or that we share all opinions. It’s not that complicated a concept; why do you have so much trouble understanding it?
Anyone who honestly believed at any time in 2010 that the 49ers would be better with Carr as QB instead of Smith without a doubt didn’t know jack about football. Don’t confuse mob mentality with actual wisdom, particularly when the mob includes lots of guys who have been drinking for hours.
How many said they hate Smith? Lets some some proof. Where is it written?
Does it have to be specifically, “I hate Smith?”
Or do the Alice comments count? How about all the made up stuff? Or both?
Exaggerations? Generalizations? Do those count?
Hey at least we don’t have that little crack smoker, All! around anymore. Hihihihihihihi. He was a treat.
@ninermd:
I didn’t make any reference to anyone saying/writing “I hate Smith.”
@Adam:
I could be wrong, but I think ninermd believes his challenge is cleverly analogous to the challenges many of us have issued to him/Bay and others to identify the commenters whom they allege have asserted that Alex Smith is elite.
Can we put to rest the use of “Hater” and “Smither”?
No one hates Alex. They may dislike his level of play but they don’t hate him.
“Can we put to rest the use of “Hater” and “Smither”?”
Homer Simpson had the best line ever: “Marge, you’re living in a world of make-believe.”
:P
Adam, I thought you were going to say, “Doh!” : ).
Oh well, let’s see how long I can follow my own request before bothering others with it right.
Makes sense to me Jack. I’ve never understood why people are referred to as Smithers. If you support the QB of your team unconditionally, then you are a homer or I guess in this case a Smither, but I have not seen much evidence of that from the people who support Smith.
Usually their posts are in response to somebody posting some opinion piece slamming Smith. Without actually calculating the percentages, I’d say the reason most blog posts turn into Alex Smith arguments is because somebody posts an opinion or article that disparages Smith, which then leads to people sticking up for him, being called Smithers and then Neal comes in with his lame smack to put the blog out of it’s misery.
Add new blog entry and repeat.
There’s some weirdness on both sides of the argument for sure. It’s hard not to call people out. I personally have a harder time with the haters because we (the fans) should be a bit more optimistic (the 49er Faithful and all that.)
Nothing worse than a fairweather fan that bashes all year long and then jumps on the bandwagon at the end. Meh…
Does thinking a player is marginal not make you a fan or make you fair weather?
Can the AS lovers at least admit that he is the weakest link on the chain and this season is do or die?
Nothing wrong with wanting a guy that is better than average. Or wanting a better performance out of the guy you have. But… to dismiss the fact that Smith made some progress last year? What does that say?
The irritating stuff is the Jordasm like stuff we get around here like: “I guarantee that blah blah blah puff puff. Smith is done, put it in the bank [enter standard pap, talking points and more spew here],” etc.
What it is is that some people have a deep emotional need to be right, so they invest in that heavily. Pick a position and build a bunker, right? It’s dumb. It happens on the pro side too. There are a couple guys here that will argue until they’re blue in the face. They HAVE to be right.
The reality is that no one knows what’s next. Smith could blow the doors off or he could flop. Or… here’s a wacky scenario: CK is traded, JJ comes in and throws 12 INTs and is replaced by Tolzien who becomes an instant Bay Area hero. Nobody knows. JJ could be the savior at QB. All four could get struck by lightning while eating at Fog City Diner and Trent Dilfer comes out of retirement. Who knows. Hell, maybe CK grows a touch pass. Sounds like his short game isn’t very good.
Disagree on the weakest link. The weakest link last season was the receiving corps (mainly due to injuries,) in my opinion. We won’t know what’s what this season until we see some exhibition football – or at the very least some reportage out of regular camp.
It could very well be the QB group (in general) is a weak link but we don’t know yet.
Anyway, that’s my take on things. I’m not an expert, I don’t know everything and I’m OK with “wait and see.” Doesn’t bother me in the slightest – that’s why I watch the games!
JH,
There is voicing an opinion that a player is marginal and then there is a constant barrage of insults and attacks on the player, with slanted facts and fabricated information.
If you believe a player is at his peak or just not good enough, and want him replaced with a better alternative, there is nothing wrong with that in my book, provided you have a viable argument as to who that guy can be. What I take offense to is people that would rather be right about an opinion they have than acknowledge that they could be wrong. That is being stubborn and wanting to be right more than being a fan. I didn’t think Alex Smith was going to be an NFL starter anymore a few years ago either, but he proved me wrong. If you are a true fan, you’d rather be proven wrong on an opinion that a player for your team is lousy, than continue to look for any possible speck of proof that will support your argument imo.
Geez Adam how did you get into my head? Or did I crawl into yours? Either way we almost said the same thing. Creepy.
Let’s go Claude, you call them
Haters, where’s the hate? And Adam. Who are you ds? Make up your mind. Your done with the smith talk or not. Which is it?
Adam now.
You know the list of bloggers who I am not, is signifantly smaller than the list of those who I am.
md
You have discussed more AS on this entry than either myself or oneniner. That is just a fact. Who is obsessed with him? I’d wager you are.
Prove it ds……Again you’re in a rush to defend someone but dont know the facts. Adam has stated more than once he’s tired of the Smith fighting and that he would stay out of it. He hasnt. And because YOU state it’s a fact, doesnt make it one. Nobody is on here more than you, and Im guessing 90% of it has to do with Smith. Research the facts and then call them that. Ds you are on fumes. Give up, you can’t win with me. Do what you say you always do and ignore my comments. HA HA HAAAA We all know you cant.
What it is is that some people have a deep emotional need to be right, so they invest in that heavily. Pick a position and build a bunker, right? It’s dumb. It happens on the pro side too. There are a couple guys here that will argue until they’re blue in the face. They HAVE to be right……..adam
Duh……And the leader of “they have to be right” is Onelame. Still after 8 years saying eat crow. How about leaving fans alone that have their opinion on our qb. Its not like he has been lights out but not as good as Joe or Steve. How about just good ol Keeping it Real, Calling it like you see it. Of course Smith improved last season, and he needs to improve more parts of his game. There are two —— that refuse to admitt this. Smith was OK last season and will be very good this season. There arguement over. lol
You are right md. I can’t win with you.
After your reply to my women soccer post, you proved it. No hope for you. Lost cause. Time to move on. If you call that a win, then…sad.
FYI
Jack posts more than I do. So you need to get some facts straight yourself. And I can read. So I know exactly what Adam said.
“Does thinking a player is marginal not make you a fan or make you fair weather?
Jack, I see it both ways. The blamers want the supporters to be more critical. I’ve been critical of AS and I’ve mentioned his weaknesses. Now on the other side of this issue, the main blamers (especially in the last several weeks) haven’t posted anything positive. Projections, prognostications, etc. As a fan you can be critical, but at least see the (upgrades on offense) improvements and trust the HC/staff to know what is best for the team. After all, the HC wasn’t voted Coach of the Year for not knowing his job. All in. Go 9ers!
I don’t understand what there is to stay out of. The whole argument is silly. Nobody knows anything, so that’s not much of a basis for an argument either way.
Smith is neither Elite nor a Bust. What he is…? Still to be determined. Could he ultimately go either way? Sure. He could also just maybe stay about the same. Journeyman QB with flashes of brilliance every once in a while.
My hope is he continues to make progress. Even small steps from here on out means we win, right?
Obviously someone believes in the guy, he’s been here quite a while so they either think he has potential or this is the greatest con in all sports history. I mean look, the Niners could have let him walk this year and rolled the dice with CK and still picked up JJ if that’s what they wanted to do. If he’s THAT bad, why not cut bait and be done with it, right?
I don’t know, I don’t make the decisions. I played the game some in the old days and I can recognize some things that are both good and bad with him and some things around him that were out of his control that he gets nailed for. It’s not rocket science. Not a hard thing to recognize, just have to see them and understand the game and the position.
Whatever. Doesn’t matter that much to me other than the agenda to get rid of the guy (by a small minority of fans) smells as rotten as the worst kind of political stupidity.
I’ll support whoever they stick back there, always have. Any of the four, let’s just get to the season, all this back and forth bickering is classic insanity. No one will change his/her mind yet the band rolls on.
Dumb. Let’s move on.
At the time of the “We Want Carr” chant the 49ers were 0-5 and Alex was playing abysmally. At that point he had 4 TDs and 9 INTs on the season. He had also fumbled 4 times including the one the Eagles had just returned for a TD. He was simply horrible on a Derek Anderson level.
“We Want The Water Boy” would have been appropriate at that point. “We want anyone but this bum” was the feeling of the fans and calling them idiots is as silly as saying Smith would “compete” with Manning.
He did bounce back and have a nice 2nd half against a prevent defense but the 49ers were in too deep a hole for it to matter by that point.
msc,
You used to be somewhat objective even though you didn’t like Smith very much. Now you’ve jumped on the Jordan wagon.
The Niners could have won two of their first four games had the defense held at key moments. The Clements fumble on a play that would have iced a win in Atlanta comes to mind along with the defense caving in and giving up a game winning drive to the Saints in a little over a minute, but they get a pass right? Philly went prevent with most of the 4th quarter remaining? The 9ers were in too big of a hole? A 3 point deficit with 3 mins remaining is too deep a hole?
I’ve never seen so many people have such an aversion to giving a guy a bit of credit for anything.
I don’t know, I think Clemons was pretty fair there. It was a bad start to the season.
The only thing I can say is that the whole season to me looked like a comedy of errors. We’d get up early in some games and then try to ride it out or we’d shoot ourselves in the foot with a ton of penalties or turnovers.
I think, due to the apparent coaching incompetence, the only thing we can do is judge this team from 2011 forward. Aside from some dull offense at times by Roman, this thing looks pretty solid now. Actually pretty remarkable that the team came together last season with the lockout and all that.
The 2012 season is probably the indicator.
@Adam
I remember hearing MS say after a game which the Niners scored on their opening posession, then went ultra-conservative after and lost the game, MS told the press that since the Niners scored on their opening posession, and a lead he planned on holding that for theremaining 50+ minutes.
Singletary = great player and maybe a good position coach (no idea) but a terrible, terrible head coach. He was way too green.
I wonder if Sing has hit his ceiling. Nolan too, for that matter. Nolan doesn’t seem to keep his DC jobs very long.
The old Peter Principle: You rise to the level of your incompetence.
Sooooo glad those days are over.
Adam
Just to screw with your mind further about MS:
He was fired as positions coach after 1 year from the Vikings.
BUT he remains the Assistant HC of the team. At least according to the forum I found and didn’t delve into deeper after a 3 second search informed me.
So, we all thought he would be a good/great LB coach. Turns out he was just fired from that job. We all thought MS ended up being a horrible HC. Turns out the Vikings don’t think so. Maybe there is a reason why their team has collapsed since the Title game AP fumbled away and BF for good measure, threw across his body for no good reason to lose the game. “Wide Spread organizational stupidity.”
http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=131936
I would love Alex Smith to be my neighbor, but not my QB. The problem is that he will never be JM or SY, but can he just be in the top 10 of football, very unlikely. He will mislead you, just like the Saints game, he has his Warhol 15 minutes of fame, the next week, same old Alex from the last 7 long sucky years.
You just get dumber with every thought put into a comment.
And you got that from one game, Neal? What about the rest of the season?
He tied Montana for most comebacks in the season for Christ sake.
Any accolades at all or it’s all crap with you?
Come on Adam, get with the program. Don’t you know those comebacks were only because the Smith and the offense couldn’t build up an insurmountable lead?
@Adam
That from the mouth of the guy who is on here all the time telling us how often he is at the games and how he can see things that the coaches with their film can’t.
So, it’s as reliable as reliable gets.
@ribico
The truly sad part is that the guy who said that about comebacks actually meant it. It wasn’t some mis-interpretation, or typo. He’s actually been defending it, writing those who disagree with him on it are the fools and lack cred (whatever that means on a blog).
Adam,
There is no disputing the bad start to the season. Where I don’t see objectivity from msc is in how he projects the blame for it. He refers to abysmal QB play and not much else. Meanwhile there were a number of other reasons for the poor start. The defense was not good at times and couldn’t close out a couple of games that could have been wins. There were dumb TO’s that gave away key points and turned games. There was the fact a new OC was given the playcalling duties after 3 games. I don’t like simplistic takes on complex issues.
I’m tired of reading posts that just put the blame all on one guy. I’m not an apologist for Alex Smith. I would have been quite happy to have Peyton Manning here, and I’ll be just fine if one of the guys currently on the roster beats him out, but I have to respond when I see one sided viewpoints tossed out with no regard for everything that transpired.
I see what you’re saying.
The thing I remember most are all the penalties. False starts and everything else killed us.
I do remember one crazy wild throw from Smith to Crabs across the middle of the field that must have been 5 yards over Crab’s head. Not good. :P
@Rocket of course there were other problems on the team. The topic at hand was the “We Want Carr” chant. I was describing the frustration of a fanbase with a terrible quarterback.
It’s interesting that you mention the Clements’ fumble. It was indeed a horrible play and caused the 49ers to lose 16-14.
Take a second look at that score and tell me what was wrong with the team. And then tell me who the leader of the offense is.
msc,
It was a game in Atlanta against one of the better teams in the NFC. What exactly did you expect? They were in position to win the game if Clements doesn’t fumble. That is the point. Smith didn’t lose that game. He didn’t play great either, but this is where that tendency to point fingers solely at the QB doesn’t fly with me. Even in the Philly game, the offense played well enough to win and contrary to your belief they weren’t playing prevent the entire 4th quarter, but the defense couldn’t hold Kevin Kolb in key moments which played a huge part in the loss. This is what I’m talking about. Blame the QB for his part, but don’t place the sole focus on him. There are many reasons why teams lose games and this case was no different. Fans lash out at the easy target, which is the QB. All the other stuff is ignored and it’s ridiculous. The fans chanting for Carr that night were idiots, morons or whatever other term of dumbness you’d like to use. It was misguided fan frustration and nothing more.
So, how about FG? Is he the best NINER RB, or does that title belong to Roger Craig/Joe Perry/somebody else?
It’s unfortunate that FG had to play on poor teams. Just imagine if he were in his prime right now (age 25).?!! That’s the main difference with RCraig, etc. As I stated above, I see FG having another banner year fully healthy. Go 9ers!
True that Hofe. But CH has been the commensurate warrior and long after he’s gone he will always be one of favorites. But your point about playing on better team will likely be eventually handed over to K.Hunt and L.James.
I’d give Craig the edge because he was so good in every phase like Gore but was a better receiver imo. I know some will disagree, but I also thought Ricky Watters was a vastly underrated part of this team. He was easily one of the best receiving RB’s I’ve ever seen. He may have been the most talented back the Niners have ever had.
I agree. Loved that guy and it was a huge mistake to let him go.
Imagine if Watters had Craig’s work ethic and heart…
Yeah, Waters was very talented, and the season he and SY and all went to the Super Bowl; wow, he was on fire that year, best of his career. But in that oddity of football and life, he never equalled that season. He helped the Eagles, and to a lesser degree the ‘hawks, but he wasn’t the force ever again. It looked like he got complacent in Philly after getting his Big Money; I don’t know if that’s right, just how it looked to me.
McIlhenney (sp?) deserves to be remembered, and Watters and Hearst had some excellent years, and Gore has to be considered with Roger Craig. OK, ok, I gotta pick one? Roger,
Will FG start the season as the starting RB? Will the Niners be so talented at RB, they normally have 2 RB’s?
What combination of RB’s do you see? Will FG be in, in situations where JH thinks the blitz is coming? Or will the Niners not care and go with what they will regardless of if they think a blitz is coming? Meaning more or less they trust the blitz pick-up ability of all RB’s equally, even if FG is the best.
Of course Frank will be the starter. I think that James and Hunter will see a lot of opportunities in the red zone (both running and receiving) with Jacobs being the goal line guy. I’m still not convinced that Jacobs is going to fill that role very well, he has not ran with the brute force like he did earlier in his career for several years. I’m hoping Boobie gets his sh$% together and runs with anger in training camp, he would be the perfect goal line back if he stopped dancing around.
I’m expecting to see lots of KH this year.
Anybody hear anything about KH’s blitz pick-up skills improving or not from last season?
Grant, anything about this from JH or your other writer friends?
*Frank Gore
Marshall Lynch is a beast ! Tough tough runner to bring down..got good motors.
Is Adam Schefter a Jerry Jones puppet now? Schefter says Cowboys could go to Super Bowl this year. Be adraid of Dallas……lol!
http://dallas.sbnation.com/dallas-cowboys/2012/6/11/3079152/adam-schefter-says-dallas-cowboys-could-go-to-super-bowl
I’ll hate on Jerry Jones. Very little respect for that dime bag.
..houston 9er should love this read by Adam Schefter……
Actually, I love it.
Let’s get everybody hyped about the Pokes and Tebow and RG3 and Eli & Peyton. Our guys will be out here in the Forgotten West working towards dominating, one game at a time. The national press hasn’t much noticed that our sad sack division has become a pretty rough neighborhood. With decent qb play, both Seattle and Az are going to surprise some teams. The Rams will need not only Bradford to lay well, but their depth……?
As to Dallas, yeah, they’re competitive, but they might not be the best team in Texas.
uh, *play well*, lol
@brotha
Both Texan teams are led by guys who blow it when the pressure is on. Texas won their first playoff game without that starting QB of theirs. And, the Texans normal collapse at the end of the season didn’t happen (shockingly) when Schaub (sp?) was out.
As for Romo, he is freaky. Great one game, sucks the next. And other than 1 playoff game, he always stinks it up when the pressure is on. The Giants should not have been in the playoffs last year. Dallas blew it. And I really wanted to play the Cowboys again after we lost in week 2 to them.
So, best Texan team carries very little weight.
How Peyton Hillis isn’t in the Top 5 list is beyond me?!? haha
Missed this one the other day.
http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2012/06/08/besides-protection-lt-staley-offers-free-rent/
Nice. Joe Show is a decent human being.
Yeah,but I’m glad that Amos and Andy commercial he did for the eye doctor was edited down.
I don’t live in the Bay Area so I didn’t see that. Bad?
I’ve read a few posts of late -some good natured kidding and some not- that they wish I would have to eat crow on my predictions. That I haven’t says something.
SO,here’s yur chance..I don’t think Mc Fadden will ever be much..he’s too anxious- too willing, to sit it out if anything hurts. And he plays football. Things will always hurt.
Since this blog is old and stale, I thought some old and funny would be ok.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eBrb00pdGw
It went exactly as I said blogs go awhile back. Stay on topic for 100 posts, then the topic of AS crops in. At about 300 or so, it is nearly all AS.
This one from a buddy over at StripeHype made me chuckle:
“The 49ers acquire and pay Maurice Jones-Drew, who breaks the all-time rushing record, then retires. Jim Harbaugh then gives the job back to Frank Gore, claiming they were never interested in Jones-Drew.”
msclemons67,
Way to poke the bee hive, Harbaugh’s word is good as gold. :0
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/10/harbaughs-comments-on-manning-now-a-running-joke-in-league-circles/
Unfortunately Harbaugh’s weird statement is going to be like Schwartz’ reaction to the Handshake or the Lions’ multiple arrests. We’re going to hear jokes about it all year.
We may as well laugh at them because they aren’t going away.
Week 2 will be hyped as “The Handshake Part 2″
http://media.photobucket.com/image/jim%20schwartz%20angry/jimrat204/Picture3-10.png
Not a surprise to anyone that saw it unfold. We have to remember though that Harbaugh is still a young NFL coach. Whatever his strategy was with his comments, it failed.
I’m getting antsy for the season to begin. Just a couple of months away : )
…actually Bay….his strategy with his comments was a success…..cuz you are still whinning about them…
@Bay:
Whatever his strategy was with his comments, it failed.
How can you say his strategy was a failure if you don’t know what his strategy was?
Or he didn’t have a strategy and he’s just fumbling around trying to find the right words.
Claude,
regardless of strategy it was dishonest. And because Alex shares an agent with Manning he knows to a degree it was dishonest as well.
Truly the only successful way for Harbaugh to sell it to Smith is to tell him that ownership and the front office pushed the move, not him.
Bay,
The thing is, Smith backed Harbaugh up on it, so he’s either playing the good soldier or there is some truth in there somewhere. I really have a hard time believing Harbaugh would come out and lie unprovoked, and do so when the guy involved is still his QB. I suppose it could be like that, but it’s a stretch for me to accept it.
@Bay, rocket:
What was dishonest?
As I read the transcript Grant provided, Harbaugh:
1. Acknowledged that the 49ers looked at Manning. He quibbled with the words, “pursued” and ‘flirted,” but that’s just semantics. He acknowledged that the 49ers had interest in Manning.
2. Said that the 49ers would not have paid Manning $20 million per year (approximately equal to 1/6 of the salary cap) or let multiple players go in order to sign Manning. Obvious candidates are Rogers, Brooks and Goldson.
3. Said that the 49ers intended to bring Smith back regardless of what happened with Manning and that they informed both Smith and Manning of that intention.
4. Acknowledged that Manning called the 49ers to tell them he had selected Denver.
I think that’s an accurate summary of Harbaugh’s statement. Which part strikes you as dishonest?
@rocket:
Sorry, that comment originally was addressed to both you and Bay because it was going to cover a broader issue. It evolved as I wrote it, however, and, by the time I was done, it no longer addressed anything you had written. I should have removed your name from it.
If you’re going to make a list like this, make sure you know football. Your list is way off.
1. Ray Rice
2. Lesean McCoy
3. Arian Foster
4. Matt Forte
5. Maurice Jones Drew
…this is really disturbing…….
49ers ….”offensive line ranked in terms of pass protection during that same time:
2005 – 29th
2006 – 18th
2007 – 32nd
2008 – 31st
2009 – 26th
2010 – 30th
2011 – 25th
Source: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
Use the drop down window at the top of the page to view rankings from years prior to 2011.”……
…has any pro-bowl QB had a line with worse stats?
…with similar O-line stats?
Uhhhh…. Who knows? Maybe you should look that up. I do know that the QB playing behind the o-line with those stats has never been a Pro Bowler.
Justin Smith wasn’t a Pro Bowler for a loooonggg time. So, somehow the best DL in the NFL last year only i the last few years in a long career got recognized as a Pro-Bowler.
Does that mean Justin Smith stank until he got into the Pro-Bowl?
Hint: Answer is “No.”
…….and you will argue Alex shld have played better knowing the O-line could not protect him…
@ Houston
I’d like to compliment you on your defense of your opinions. You haven’t sold me on agreeing with you, but you’ve presented a coherent argument with some supporting statistical evidence. I appreciate that.
So why am I resisting your points? I dunno, Man, something about the eyeball test, I guess. I haven’t seen it. It just doesn’t resonate as correct. And that defense of my opinion isn’t as good as yours was.
Truth be told, I’m just having a little fun today. There’s no way on God’s Green Earth David Carr is as good as Alex Smith right now. However, if you look at their best playing days Carr and Smith are very similar. People don’t like that because they see Carr as a bust and they don’t want to see Smith in the same light. I’m a big believer in the eyeball test. Stats are fun and do tell part of the story but what is the opinion when you watch the guy play. Smith was below average for many years with 1 year where he was adequate and had one great playoff game. You get these guys on here who ignore the 15 stats that put Smith in the bottom 5 of the league and concentrate on 4 cuts of stats that put Smith in the top 10 in the league if only he were playing top 10 defenses every week. If those guys can ignore the eyeball test and focus on the few good stats and ignore all the bad stats then I can post all my silly crap as well.
…Smith was below average for many years with 1 year where he was adequate and had one great playoff game. ….
…dude…..back up your opinion
what is below average?…..show us the below average stats…….
fyi – rookie year, injury year and offensive coordinators who can’t find jobs in the NFL are not Alexecuses
Yes they are oneniner.
The fact that the only 2 QB’s to have ever won 4 Super Bows (JM/TB) have both strongly supported AS and understood his dilemna is….well…..I’ll get back to you on that one.
:- )
I’ve backed up my opinion with facts and links to other articles and other expert opinions supporting mine hundreds of times over the years. You’re so great at going through the archives and pulling up old posts. Do yourself a favor and pull up some old info and educate yourself.
The eyeball test, has worked for me for years. Stats are ok but rarely tell the whole story. For example interceptions: The QB gets nailed for these, but doesnt tell us if he got hit as he threw the ball, if the receiver ran the right route, or if the ball bounces of the receiver hands.
“…and concentrate on 4 cuts of stats that put Smith in the top 10 in the league if only he were playing top 10 defenses every week.”
Imagine that. He plays better when he faces better teams.
Nobody is ignoring anything. The splits you mention were added because they were omitted earlier in the thread. Anything to make the guy look bad, right?
By the way splits are the context in order for the stats to make any sense at all. Otherwise any Yahoo can just make stuff up, not that that would ever happen here.
@ Houston
I hear you
@ OneNiner
Whoa dude! We going to go around that wheel again?
Hahaha, maybe it’s a perpetual motion machine on an infinity loop!
@undercenter
SY made a comment I really liked about Int’s.
He went thru all those possible outcomes/causes. But said at the end of the day, the last player on my team to posess the ball was me. A million different things can hapen resulting in an Int, but no matter what it was, I was the last person to control/posess the ball.
Now, this means nothing if the WR doesn’t have a similar motto (I get a finger on it, or it touches any part of my body, I need to catch it). Or the OL (allowing your QB to get hit/swipe/etc. in the middle of a throw).
@DS
Thats what a leader does, assumes the responsibility for the results. It doesnt mean that it was his fault, which in fact it may be, but we know that when a pass hits the receiver in the hands it bounces off and intercepted is in no way the fault of the QB. Yet the QB gets the bad stat.
…Bro tuna….lol…..its fun…..i never get tired it….
@houston….nobody trusts your stats…
http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/8416/alex-smith
the only year he was below 50% (48.7%)…..was in 2007 he played 7 games……
so again please show us the stats that prove he has been below average……
Alex QB rating……
2005 – 40.8
2006 – 74.8
2007 – 57.2
2009 – 81.5
2010 – 82.1
2011 – 90.7
Again the stats show he has not been below average as you claim….actually he has improved every year since the shoulder injury……..
Under the eyeball test is the ONLY test that counts, Houston why bother with these two morons? They will never admit Smith sucked for years. Good luck.
And look the wittle chihuahua is back. And he brought stats, the qbr stats. Where are the %, Ints, 3rd down%, game ending int’s, fumbles, missed wr’s, td’s, times benched for other qb’s? QBR What a joke! Onepuppy will always skate around the obvious. What a *ussy. Crying over another man. Pathetic.
The eye ball test is relevant only if your Harbaugh, Baalke and York. To make the eye ball test valid, I would think you have to be working professionally in pro football for a long time. Otherwise fans like us, the eye ball test is useless.
Not true Prime,,, And I wont get into the “why were they looking elsewhere crap” but the eye ball test works for anyone who will actually use them, Example: The 0-16 Lions were aweful. Everyones eyeballs saw that. Mmmhmm
Houston,
This isn’t what you’ve been arguing. Up above you said nothing about comparing their best playing days. You posted career stats for both and said the Niners would have had the same success with David Carr last year. I understand why you are now backtracking but don’t pretend that this is what you’ve been talking about all along.
Carr was released by the Texans because he had hit a wall. He wasn’t getting any better, was owed a lot of money and they weren’t winning. Since then the Texans have been proven correct and Carr’s career has become backup for hire.
That’s not the case with Smith. He missed most of two seasons with serious shoulder injuries. Once he came back, he has steadily improved each season. That’s the difference between Smith and Carr. One hit a wall, the other came back from adversity and is on an upward climb. We don’t know how long that will continue or how far it will go, but right now he’s continuing to ascend while Carr has fallen on the heap of backup mediocrity.
Rocket
Thats sound reasoning concerning Smith/Carr.
@ 19er, you can’t possibly be that obtuse. Let’s look at how Alex compared to other QBs from the site in your link using the QBR stat you posted. In some cases I had to use the All Players because Alex didn’t qualify based on # of attempts.
Alex QB rating……
2005 – 40.8 NFL Rank – 81 (Below Average)
2006 – 74.8 NFL Rank – 48 (Below Average)
2007 – 57.2 NFL Rank – 80 (Below Average)
2009 – 81.5 NFL Rank – 19 (Below Average)
2010 – 82.1 NFL Rank – 21 (Below Average)
2011 – 90.7 NFL Rank – 9 (Above Average)
So back to my original post. Alex has been below average for most of his career using the stats you posted.
@ Rocket,
Stop stalking me. I wasn’t addressing you. JK.
Actually, you brought up another parallel between Carr and Smith. Both players were basically at the end of their ropes. Both players were former #1 picks who had hit a wall and were on the path to bustville. Smith had the luxury of being signed and coached by Harbaugh. Carr didn’t have that luxury. If Carr had been in the same position perhaps he would have managed games as well as Smith did last year under Harbaugh. As I documented earlier, they are very similar QB’s.
…..80 QB rating is not playing the game below average……
So at lunch I saw the 1980s Niners woop the 1960s Packers. I guess NFL Net (or ESPN?) made these things in the late 90s. Had no idea these existed – teams of the century or whatever they call it.
What a trip!! Montana vs. Bronko Nagurski and Bart Starr vs. Ronnie Lott.
Theismann, Jaws and Howard Cosell was an interesting broadcast team, too.
So yeah, we won! Interesting and very creative.
Sweet, now I’m watching fake made-up games. Come on football season, hurry up!
I remember that series of virtual matchups. Hard to take seriously, but sounds like a fun outcome to watch.
I remember those. They had the Dynasty’ against each other in a playoff. Didnt the crappy Steelers win it all? Please, the Steel curtain wouldnt have stood a chance against the 89, 84, or 94 teams.
Informative interview with Greg Roman:
http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2012/06/12/roman-praises-boone-moss-discusses-smiths-mechanics/
He covered a lot of topics and gave some good insight into the process of installing and teaching the offense.
C-Balls -Thanks for the link, outstanding read!
I love what I’m hearing from Roman about Alex Boone, “Just loves football, loves getting dirty in the trenches,” Roman said.
Boone could be the Justin Smith of our offense. I hope Boone earns the starting guard spot.
Nice to hear Roman is “fired up” about watching tapes of Bill Walsh installing the West Coast offense.
DeMarcus Dobbs is playing some offense now (tight end), wow! Roman is considering all options.
Roman also said some good stuff about AS working hard too.
This coaching staff puts the Singletary/Nolan staffs to shame!!
….i agree
My old Pop warner football coaches put Sing/nolan coaching to shame. Wheeew. Those were some dark years. Our O-line jelled nicely as the season went on, Smith and the o-line will dominate defenses this season. Bet on that
“Smith and the o-line will dominate defenses this season.”
If thats true we go 19-0. I tend to agree with you.
Under – If we go 19-0 I will buy an Alex Smith fathead, make that two fatheads (one for 23J)! :-)
Crabs…..Im buying an Alex Smith jersey THIS season. What chu know about that? lol
MD – Ha too funny man. BTW MD, my old Pop Warner coach was pretty intense. I remember one kid on our team was about to piss his pants during practice and he asked if he could go to the pisser. Our coach said “learn to spit”…..you don’t forget that stuff MD.
Crabs……Those were the good ol days, 2 a days and you earned water breaks, and you earned your playing time. Breeding winners back then. Cant say that for the kids now….and the two a days were HS if the street lights rule wasnt in effect, Id have been playing till i dropped, Baseball, Hoops, and Foozball Bobby! lol
MD
I am with you, play till you drop, football, baseball, hoops, and chasing the ladies, I had zero room for anything else.
MD – Good stuff. I hear ya, it’s not the same with kids now.
When I was a kid we’d go to the park & play ball all day in the Summer heat and nobody brought water. We might go to a drinking fountain at the end of the day or wait until we got home.
Now, kids (including my own) can’t leave the house without water or sports drink bottles for practice.
I get tired of hearing “I need a drink.”
Jaws ranks qb’s. I like Jaws’ take on QB’s
so far
30 Tebow
29 Gabbert
Roman speaking on Moss
“He has really been as good as you can possibly ask for in terms of being totally engrossed in football,” said Roman. “He’s a throwback. … He’s got his family and football and his faith, and that’s what he’s all about. And he’s about football and he knows the game. And it’s been great watching the players interact, the quarterbacks interact, the receivers interact with him. And we’ll all be better because of it. And just truly impressed with everything Randy Moss represents.”
I was not in favor or acquiring Moss for the knowen reason but I am quickly becoming a Moss fan.