Who are the top-five athletes on the 49ers?
This is an interesting question – people ask me all the time who is the Niners best athlete. My answer is a little subjective because we don’t have access to the data the team has. These are my sideline impressions from hours and hours watching the team. I base my rankings on speed, quickness, strength and endurance.
- Patrick Willis – One of the fastest players in the NFL, Willis ran a 4.37 at his Pro Day in 2007. He’s strong enough to knock big, tough, inside runners like Adrian Peterson and Marshawn Lynch on their backs, and he’s fast enough to beat speedsters like Darren Sproles to the sideline. He’s also fast and skilled enough to cover any tight end, probably even some wide receivers, too. Oh, and he’s an excellent blitzer. He’s elite at everything an inside linebacker could be elite at, and he’s only 27-years-old. He truly is the Willie Mays of linebackers.
- Vernon Davis – One of the strongest players on the team, Davis might be the best blocking tight end in the NFL. He also ran a 4.38 at the NFL combine in 2006, which makes him about as fast as Willis. I rank Davis behind Willis because Davis isn’t as quick – he’s more of a straight-line runner.
- Justin Smith – Off-the-charts strength and endurance. When the Niners signed Smith in 2008 he was a 275-pound defensive end. Now he’s a 295-pound defensive tackle-end hybrid, he played a higher percentage of snaps than any other defensive lineman in the NFL last season, he plugs the run, he hits the quarterback and he chases down much smaller players from behind. Defensive linemen have the most tiring job in football – hand-to-hand combat with 300-pound offensive linemen followed by a chase of whoever has the football. Justin Smith is the best at those things. He seems to get stronger and faster as the game goes on. The most famous example of this was when he chased down the Philadelphia Eagle’s wide receiver Jeremy Maclin from behind and stripped the ball out of his arms to seal the victory.
- NaVorro Bowman – As strong as Patrick Willis and almost as quick. Bowman might even be a better blitzer. He’s not quite as good in coverage because he doesn’t have the same top-end speed and he can’t jump as high – Willis almost has a 40-inch vertical, Bowman’s is closer to 30 inches.
- Ted Ginn Jr. – The undisputed fastest 49er. He ran a 4.38 40-yard dash at his Pro Day, but he had sprained his left foot a few months before and he wasn’t fully healthy. There are rumors that Ginn Jr. ran in the 4.2s at Ohio State spring practices. In high school he was the 110-meter hurdles national champion his junior and senior years. He’s one of the best punt and kick returners in the NFL.
If there’s anybody I left off the list, please don’t be offended. To be an NFL player is an incredible achievement and they’re all good athletes.
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True enough…it will be interesting to see LaMichael James play at the pro level and see if his game translates at this level. If so, his name could be on this list next year.
Good list Grant……
No honorable mentions? Id have to say Alex Smith, and Delanie Walker. Solid athletic skills on both guys
Nobody can roll right and throw out of bounds faster than Alex Smith can!! =P
lol. I remember those days. I think they are over now.
Carlos Rodgers pro day results was better than Darrelle Revis and his play on the nimble slot recievers shows hes a tremendous athlete also.
It’s cool. Frank Gore is not an athlete…
He’s a f’ing WARRIOR.
Not a solider tho… cause then he’d be Kellen Winslow. :D
WORD.
Joe Staley and Isaac Sopoaga. Their ability to run routes and catch passes shows they are both tremendous athletes.
I would go with Mangingham,that was one of the greatest catches I ever saw in the Superbowl game.Also along with being a great Athlete ,you got to add the clutch gene
Three Years of Drop Rates – Wide Receivers.
http://tinyurl.com/7eh2dnz
Rank Player Current Team Drops Catchable Drop Rate
1 Roy E. Williams FA 19 130 14.62%
2 James Jones GB 20 139 14.39%
3 Mike A. Williams TB 20 149 13.42%
4 DeSean Jackson PHI 25 193 12.95%
5 Brandon Gibson SL 18 141 12.77%
6 Terrell Owens FA 18 145 12.41%
7 Donald Driver GB 22 179 12.29%
8 Randy Moss SF 15 126 11.90%
9 Dwayne Bowe KC 26 225 11.56%
10 Brandon Marshall CHI 35 303 11.55%
11 Michael Crabtree SF 22 195 11.28%
12 Mario Manningham SF 19 174 10.92%
(Ginn is worse, but doesn’t qualify on the list.)
I’d go more luck than CLUTCH. Rice was clutch. Taylor was clutch. Clark was clutch. All those guys had hands among the best in the history of the NFL. What we have now is a group of stone-handed WRS, of which, only one has other merits that make up for his poor receiving (Moss).
The Pats cut Moss for a reason — he drops too many balls and that messes up Billicheck’s dink-and-dunk ball-control YAC offense.
And TEs:
6 Vernon Davis SF 224 24 10.7%
http://tinyurl.com/72j3nua
Like Moss, his explosiveness makes up for his poor hands. Don’t look for clutch plays, but look for big plays.
And RBs:
9 Frank Gore SF 152 128 115 13 10.2%
http://tinyurl.com/cz2ku75
He can’t catch because he has small hands, is stiff in the shoulders and arms and fights the ball when it comes to him. Something I’ve complained about for years. And, unlike Davis and Moss who can make explosive, game-changing plays in the passing game on their ability, thus more than offsetting their poor hands, Gore (like Crabtree) can’t.
Bottom line is we have the worst ‘clutch,’ or any time during a game, pass-catchers in the NFL. NO OTHER NFL TEAM has a set of starters with hands as mediocre as the 49ers.
If Jenkins doesn’t pan out and Williams doesn’t advance… It’s going to be another bad year, all of which will be blamed (as it always is) on Smith even though, as I’ve pointed out for years, the 49ers lead the NFL in drop percentage REGARDLESS OF QB.
@MosesZD:
Thanks for the buzzkill.
My hope is that Moss’ numbers are disproportionately affected by his disinterested 2010 performance and that a motivated Moss will be more reliable. Do you know where one could find info on his career numbers for drops?
Manningham actually had a off year last season, but the season before he was good. Then Nicks took his job last season.
@Neal:
Those drop rates are for the last three years combined, which means they take into account Manningham’s 2010 numbers. Obviously, the 2009 and 2011 numbers were sufficiently bad enough to overcome the 2010 good numbers. That would suggest that 201o, not 2011, was the outlier year.
That’s the same website that had Chilo Rachal as their breakout player of 2011. Oops!
A couple of these guys can make it into the Hall of Fame, Owens, Moss and maybe Driver.
Actually Driver won’t make it, if Andre Reed can’t make it, he won’t either. He is very good but not great
Aldon Smith is absolutely an Elite athlete in terms of power, strength, balance, speed, quickness, you name it. And he’s young! (and immature). Give him a few more years and he may even be better than Ware. Ware didn’t have 14 sacks in his rookie year (+2 in the playoffs). He obviously benefits from having Justin Smith taking double teams, but the same can be said for Bowman and Willis.
Aldon Smith is younger and has a higher ceiling than Bowman. And I believe he is more athletic already. Bowman has much better instincts against the run and in coverage, but if you only consider just athleticism, Aldon may be the most athletic on the team.
I appreciate you giving big ups to Willis. Dude is a beast and doesn’t get enough credit because he makes the extrordinary look ordinary. Watchout this year. I know I will.
PW does not get attention here because he is not a QB.
The impression of many here is the QB is everything. Can’t give props to somebody who is not a QB now, cause if we did, it would mean football is a team game. This would destroy their world view. And that QB’s work with others. They are not isolated players like a tennis player.
Grant
Decent list. But TG? An athletic type person at this level needs to have more than speed. He went to other teams and not a one signed him as a WR. He is fast. If he were athletic, he’d be a WR somewhere.
TG maybe the best return man around. But he is only fast and able to make moves on a return. Not worthy of top 5 in a sport that has so many. As does our team.
And I’d have Justin #1. Of course I’d have him #1 for everything. I am biased since he is my favorite player.
Why would anyone sign a Receiver who only hauls in MAYBE forty percent of the Passes thrown his way? Teddy Ginn needs to ask Davis how he got past his bout with stone hands if he’s intent on being on the field strictly as a Receiver. Then he needs to consult with the undisputed champ of Route running, Jerry Rice. Not necessarily in this order either. I’d probably flip this script and get Rice and Davis together to explain to him what the JUGS are for. ;P lol
I completely agree. TG has no business on a top 5 list of this 53 man roster for all of the above mentioned reasons.
Credibility here is falling like a rock.
I say you got the right top 5 in this story, Glad you was smart to leave Alex Smith off this list, People think one good year watch out, I’ll be watching this year and see, Let’s see if he know’s how to use his new toy’s.
Its athletes not position players. A Smith is a very good athlete. In fact I could see him on a top 10.
What about Isaac Sopoaga……hands down top-5 best ATHLETES on the 49er squad…….HANDSDOWN
I heard T.Brown was one of the best athletes.
…that int during the playoffs proves he his……..i will replace ted and insert brown
The fact that Isaac Sopoaga isn’t on this list is criminal. He ran a 4.97 40 and had a 30 inch vertical at 317 pounds. Then he put up a ridiculous 42 reps on the bench press at 225 pounds. To put that in perspective… since 2006, only 4 people total have had better performances in the bench press.
Ted Ginn over him? Really?
Can’t IS throw it over 60-70 yards? I thought I read a story where he can really toss that sucker.
Yeah, he can. Growing up in Samoa he played rugby and was able to throw that distance. He also is rumored to have been able to throw couple-pound rocks up in the air to knock down coconuts from the top of palm trees.
I put him on my list hahaha thats what Ive been trying to say……FREAK of an athlete…..JUICED list IMO…..No love for the island boy…..but we dont need recognition, we just do our job…..CHEE HU!!!! AURIGH!!!!!
Soap played fullback in high school at 285. He played safety on defense. His best sport is rugby. He set a national junior college record for sacks with 31. He walks around camp carrying 200 lb weights in each hand. He can dunk a basketall. He can throw a pass well over 70 yards. And…he’s immovable.
How many pull-ups can IS do?
A LONG time ago, I weighed nothing, and could manage a lot more pull-ups then than I can now. Even though I am much stronger now.
I wonder how NFL athletes fare pulling up their own massive muscular bodies. They are strong. But they do weigh a ton.
Not sure about how many pull ups Soap can do, but from my own experience, if you workout regularly – with weights and doing pull ups – then it doesn’t matter what your BMI is. I’m considered over weight by my doctor, but I can do 3 sets of 10+ pull ups each.
Good to hear nick.
I saw a video where an army guy did pull-ups like they were nothing, and John Cena (don’t come much bigger/stronger) couldn’t match it.
The army guy was in shape now. Not saying he wasn’t. But if you compared the two side by side, John Cena is Hercules and the army guy is like a 7th grader.
I just remember school. A few people who were skinny and weighed very little who were no where near as buff as some others could match/beat the guys who were clearly stronger lifting weights and visually, there was no comparison.
BMI is bullsh$%. According to BMI calculators, I’m obese. I am 6’5″ and I weigh 255 lbs. If I busted my butt I might be able to get to 245, but that is it. I would be pretty cut at that weight and I would still be considered 40+ lbs overweight according to BMI calculators. My cousin Martin is the same height and weighs around 200 lbs. He could stand sideways in the rain and not get wet. A guy like Soap is just country strong, as are many Somoan football players. I played with a Samoan guy in High School that literally had the build of a Ninja Turtle, 5’3″ and 200 lbs of solid muscle. The dude was just built differently than most people, as are many football players. Dontari Poe ran the 40 yard dash in 4.98 at 6’3″ and 346 lbs. I don’t know how good he will be, but that is incredible for a man of that size.
Also, have you seen the original “Ninja Warrior”?
The Japanese guys are strong, but nowhere near as massive as the Americans. Weight room competition, the Americans are way better.
But come the course, the mass of the Americans wears down on them during the obstacles where they are hanging supporting their whole weight with their arms, they are nowhere near as quick and fail a lot. The Americans who are way stronger/buffer/weigh more have difficulty where as the Japanese men don’t. The only physical advantage they have is their low mass. Less weight, their arms don’t tire so easily.
“I just remember school. A few people who were skinny and weighed very little who were no where near as buff as some others could match/beat the guys who were clearly stronger lifting weights and visually, there was no comparison.”
Lol, so true. Sounds like one of those P.E. tests where the little sinewy dude jumps up on the bar and cranks out pull ups like it’s nothing. I have always been very strong, but I have always been terrible at pull-ups.
Everybody needs to unleash their inner ninja once in a while.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/06/26/kamerion-wimbley-falls-just-short-on-american-ninja-warrior/
@ BigP
Thanks for sharing that link. It would have been interesting to see a big guy on the Ninja Warrior. To be honest, I’ve only watched one episode of that show. Those guys are strong and athletic.
@DS
I had a friend like that – skinny and super strong. Speaking of strong, check out this kid. Amazing what he does at his age.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2FB1CX7MMM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I hear Chris Culiver is a pretty darn good athlete…
Yeah I think this list is right. Of course there is always someone not mentioned that just misses the cut. I mean c’mon guys Kendall Hunter is a man child on the field. The man has speed, agility, can catch Passes out of the backfield and only Frank Gore is a better blocker in that unit during Passing downs. Hell I think Hunter is even faster than Frank though I’ve no idea what his 40 time is.
So yeah number 5 could be filled by about 6 guys currently on the roster. xD
IMHO, Hunter is almost carbon copy of Barry Sanders with the freakish way he makes his cuts. When I first saw that kid run for us? O_OmfnLORD he’s agile.
Hunter cuts like Sanders? Do you actually watch football games or just read stat lines?
Come’on Cead, I like Hunter, but he’s not Barry Sanders
@ceadderman
KH+VD+RM+Jacobs+take your pick will be very fast (RM/VD). Very quick (KH/Jacobs) and not many defenses can stop that time affter time.
Good times are a commin!
The fun part of this, is that your jaws are gonna’ drop when LaMichael James hits TC. I can’t remember how often I watched him hit into the line and reappear 3 yards away from anyone. IFM
@oregon
I meant James. Keep getting their names mixed up. Get 2 very fast RB’s to catch the ball out of the backfield after sending VD along with the LB’s/safety deep up the seam, along with RM taking the other S on deep routes, and there won’t be a lot of bodies left and a lot of green.
This will be the first time AS will have guys to throw it to who are open and can get YAC.
Got that right Oregon. That kid reminds me a lot of mjd in person. Fast as hell and is willing to run people over. I think he will be starting after this season. Kids a beast.
Good list
I think Issac. Carlos and Aldon need to be on the list some how.
I would also add Gore who is a great runner,blocker and a good receiver.
This is a hard list to do. So many of these guys are outstanding athletes. Guys like Sopo and Moss definitely could displace one of the top five.
Having Justin and Ginn on this list, more than anything I could say, demonstrates how much YMMV with superior athletes in pro football though. And a year ago, Taylor Mays probably would have made this list or been very close.
Intangibles like heart too often end up trumping all the measurables. And even with the physical things, little things like change of direction can end up more important than speed in a straight line.
Good point on Moss. Are we talking about now or as a person. Moss would certainly in the top 5 if we are talking career. He might even be #1.
1. P.Willis
2. Vernon Davis
3. Justin Smith
4. Isaac Sopoaga
5. Mike Iupati
Honorable mention:
N.Bowman
J.Staley
K.Hunter
B.Jacobs
K.Walker
Hilarious. Give me a top 10 in NFL history that doesn’t have Randy Moss on it. Yet he doesn’t make yours and it’s just out of 49ers. LOL. “Randy Freaking Moss” – Justin Smith
Good list.
The only guy I have a problem with is Ginn. Of your criteria (speed, quickness, strength and endurance), I see him with only speed and quickness. He is not particularly strong, and his endurance is not exactly superior to others’. I agree with whoever said Aldon is better, and I think you might put Goldson here. Certainly I see Staley as better, especially when you take into account size/speed ratio (like you do with Justin). And supposedly Kyle Williams was faster than everyone out there in the OTAs.
(P.S. I watched Ginn many times in college. He was never in the 4.2s. Chris Johnson was high 4.2s and faster. Deion was in the 4.2s–probably low ones at that–and TG is nowhere near that speed.)
I can verify that Ginn has 4.2 speed as I have seen him run those times in person when he was a Buckeye. That being said, straight line speed is his only asset. He isn’t a shifty guy that will make guys miss; he would rather run out of bounds or fall on the ground then try and juke somebody.
He is a terrible receiver in every phase of the position, but you can’t deny he has world class speed. That alone makes him a pretty incredible athlete.
I’m not a Raider fan, but I remember Bo Jackson (mid 4.2s). Tedd Ginn plays nowhere near that speed.
Nick, I agree. It seems like Ginn is a lot faster without the pads on. He doesn’t seem to run as fast when he’s on the football field. I guess I should have mentioned that.
Ginn is world class fast in a straight line, he just isn’t quick in confined space like a Devin Hester. If there is a crease there, he is gone and he rarely even has to get into third gear.
Grant, top 4 was on point. Ted Ginn?? No Chris Cully is a better athlete. Fast is about all Ginn is, he’s not going to make “athletic” catches (or catches in general). Ginn can’t get open, where as Cully was able to contain Megatron for an entire game during his rookie season. I’d bet Cully could shut Ginn down. Ginn doesn’t even have the stature that signifies a top notch athlete, whereas Cully was called a physical specimen when he was drafted.
Cully or Sopoaga over Ginn any day.
Good call
Ummm. Randy Moss is known as an absolute athletic freak and is considered one of the greatest athletes in NFL history.
It all comes down to whether the list is on general ability or on right at this moment. Right at this moment Randy might not be top 5.
I wish the 49ers would just release Ted Ginn Jr. He could of made some attempt at playing against the Giants for a chance at the Super-Bowl but instead chose to sit the sidelines. I just don’t think he is much of a competitor. Kyle Williams could be considered a better athlete than Ginn…I really think he can do whatever Ted Ginn Jr. can do and then some. It sounds like Kyle is on a mission this year to make amends for his mistakes against the Giants. I really think he was just trying to do to much….trying to break a long one and win the game instead of just laying down and playing safe like he should of. Kyle could of shrank and hid after the game but he proved he was a man – answering reporters questions for hours in the locker room. Kyle has tremendous abilities, speed, strength and talents that haven’t been realized yet. Just my opinion. I choose Kyle over Teddy (“I won’t even try to run a kick-off in the most important game of my life, rather I’ll sit this one out” ) Ginn Jr.
agree 100%
I’d like to see a race between Ted Ginn, Chris Owusu, and AJ Jenkins. It wouldn’t surprise me if Owusu won that race.
Ginn would roast those guys.
Remember, if athletic ability were the determining factor for football players Taylor Mays would be starting for the 49ers and on his way to many pro bowls :)
Well, I can’t speak for the rooks yet, but they may make the list later. The ranking gets a bit tedious, and in this case Grant weights strength heavily (it is football, so I get that). I won’t complain about those mentioned, but I have to say
+ Moss
+Soap
+Dobbs
+Aldon
+T.Brown
+Culliver
+Gore (especially if you’re favoring strength)
+C.K.
That’s it with NFL level; the big guys aren’t just big, they’re big, fast, and athletic. That’s the pre-requisite; then they make themselves fitter, stronger, and in a few cases even faster.
I’d put Crabtree in the top 5. Guy was all state in football and basketball and could have gone to College on full scholarship as a basketball player.
The poster who stated that Jerry Rice had all-time great hands, man you are clueless. He had good/average hands, and he had drops just about every game. Which was one of the remarkable things about him; the drops did not hurt much, as he was getting open on just about every pass play they ran.
Attempt at sarcasm?
This is classic blogosphere bull#*&^. If you just love being critical your characterization might fit JR’s rookie season. If you’re even suggesting your critique goes beyond that rookie year, then “average hands” is a preposterous statement.
“drops about every game”? You do know the difference between JR & TO, yes?
Connus,
As much as I love the great JR he did have the best hands.
I think Cris Carter of the Viks had better hands and (here’s a throwback) Raymond Berry could catch anything thrown his way.
Sorry, did *NOT have
AES
Sarcasm does not become you.
JR didn’t drop a ball for a decade. After his rookie year till his injury, the announcers never said “JR drops the ball!”.
When he finally started to drop the ball, the announcers always said, “You don’t see that very often.” Meaning he didn’t drop the ball before.
What about Collin Kaepernick, he does have the Throwing and Rushing records in the NCAA. He’s no slouch either. I would also say Bruce Miller because of the versatility to play special teams, block and play Defensive End in college.
Grant, I think you got some numbers wrong here. You said that Ted Ginn was “the undisputed faster 49er”. However you said that he ran a 4.38 at his pro-day, while earlier you said that Vernon Davis also ran a 4.38, and better yet you said that Patrick Willis ran a 4.37 (which is a better time). So does that mean that Ginn is NOT the faster 49er?
I also said Ginn was recovering from a foot injury at his Pro Day and he was not 100 percent. He’s faster than his Pro Day time.
Right. Cool.
I still don’t think he belongs in the top 5 :)
Keep up the good work!
I would have taken not only statistical information into account but things like: did they play multiple sports through high school and college? A true ‘athlete’ excels at most if not all sports. I suppose most players Wiki pages probably list if they played other sports as well but i’m not sure where else to get that kind of info.
But If I were splitting the line between VD and PW i’d look more into whether they are a one trick pony having played football their entire athletic career or maybe they’re a true athlete like a Tony Gonzalez who is almost as good at Basketball as he is at football. More so then a subjective guess of the ‘type’ of speed they possess.
Does the ability to recover quickly from an injury preclude one as being more athletic? Or, does being prone to injury make one less athletic? If two players are nearly equal should one get bumped up because he’s been injured less often?
1. Randy moss. 2. Randy moss. 3. Randy moss. 4. Randy moss. 5. Randy moss.
Thank you. Even at 35 all “other” beat reporters have reported he looks dominant in practices and like the best athlete on the field.
I’ll bet I’m more athletic than the writer. This is a silly subject anyhow. Isn’t this just a subjective discussion topic anyhow? How do you want to define athletic? Jerry was the best athlete ever because of how he trained his body and used it in competition with his MIND. He wasn’t the fastest strongest most athletic player on the field but he was always more conditioned and more focused than his opponent. If we are going to goof off instead of talk football, how about: which niner is the best with single chicks? Or which niner loves his mama the most? Or which niner deserves the most ice cream after practice.
Ginn is fast, but he is not a great athlete. Its why he has not been a good receiver in the NFL. His speed is why he dominated college but his lack of athleticism has been exposed in the NFL. Good athletes and great athletes would possess much better hands and fluidity when catching the ball. Its a little like Taylor Mays. He is not a fluid athlete, which is why he is not a great football player, but his height, weight, strength, and straight line speed are off the charts. But to be an “athlete” you need more.
DS94everXev says:
July 6, 2012 at 2:27 pm
AES
“Sarcasm does not become you.
JR didn’t drop a ball for a decade. After his rookie year till his injury, the announcers never said “JR drops the ball!”.
When he finally started to drop the ball, the announcers always said, “You don’t see that very often.” Meaning he didn’t drop the ball before.”
Actually DS, I can be pretty good at sarcasm (lol). But in this case, I was not being sarcastic. Truth be told, the great Jerry Rice had an issue when Steve Young took over at QB. He said that SY’ passes had an opposite spin because he was left-handed. Once he (JR) became acclimated to the opposite spin of the pass he was ‘lights out.’
But JR didn’t drop them in games at least. And since the SY-JR combo beat the previous #1 combo of JR-JM, I’d say JR handled the change in spin just fine.
I’ve always liked how JR never answers “Which QB did you prefer?” type questions. But, when you ask JM/SY who was the best WR, they both say JR.
They wouldn’t say that so easily if JR dropped passes.
I don’t know how you define “good hands”, but for me, it means 1 thing. Not dropping the ball. None compare. Not for the number of balls/years he did it.
It is a bit difficult to truly define ‘good hands.’ Some catches are the result of the WR getting completely open because of being a good route/pattern WR. Former 49er WR Ed McCaffery had his best years as a route/pattern WR after going to Denver.
Another WR can make catches even on errant throws because he has hands like vise-grips. Cris Carter of the Vikings had huge fish-nets as hands and almost caught everything thrown his way. He was not a speed-burner type, but he knew how to use his body and position for the catch.
Jerry Rice, had the ability to run precise routes and make the difficult catch because of good hands. He attributed this to catching bricks while helping his father during summer work. But one must be aware that he also had two HOF QB’ known for their pin-point accuracy who were passing the ball.
Now, we have a couple of guys in R.Moss and M.Manningham who could snag almost any pass and run great routes.
Should be an exciting year!
AES
Steve Young was a loser QB who Tampa (who was certainly not a QB rich franchise) traded away. You don’t trade franchise 1st ballot HOF QB’s who are not injury prone (JM was when the Niners traded him).
Had SY not come here to SF, he likely would have ended his career without anybody noticing. But, he came here, and he had a few things he didn’t (never would have had in Tampa):
1. A great HC (Bill Walsh)
2. A WR who looked to be the best in the NFL very early on, and who more than doubled the TD mark for a WR (Largent ended his career as #1 WR TD maker with 100). JR more than doubled that.
3. A team with a great defense that kept the offense in the game. Yes, that actually happened.
Without all 3, SY is not a HOF QB AES. Remember JR was a HOF WR before SY took command of the team. And he was still in the prime of his career. He is the best player ever as voted by the NFL. How many QB’s get to come in and have the best WR in the world to throw the ball to still in his prime, a great HC (BW then Seifert) a running game that can’t be ignored and the before mentioned defense which JM would not have done much himself had he not had that defense thru his career (1981 NFC Title game with Int to end the game, and the goal line stand come to mind).
Remember when we last conversed, I said JM says he was lucky? Well SY was just as lucky.
Look at it like this if you want AES. SY stank without JR. JR didn’t stink without SY (or for that matter JM or Jeff Garcia or Rich Gannon). JR did what he did regardless. If you were a QB and had JR, you were going to be better. A lot better than you would if you don’t have him. For that matter, SY never did a thing without JR. JR outlasted SY. SY for years never started a game without having JR. That helps boost up the confidence I’d say.
And if you don’t catch the ball, nothing else matters. At the time of his retirement, JR demolished all WR records. Now, the game is different, and favors the passing game more. Had JR come along now, can you say 30+TD’s/season? Not unthinkable considering JR did over 20 TD’s in a strike shortened year. 200 TD’s. That is 10 TD’s per year for 20 years! For comparisons sake, MC has what 12 TD’s in 3 years. And as you say he was our “leading WR”. Most players don’t last more than a few years if that. You’d have to last 20 years, producing what MC has produced his whole NFL career to be equal to JR.
Not sure where you got your info. I travelled with Niners in the 1990s, and Steve certainly played without Rice. In fact, he made Stokes look good in 1998, whereby the organization rewarded Stokes with a nice contract he didn’t deserve. JR was never really the same after he was injured, and T.O. took over. Steve was the only QB who could control Owens, too. But you just keep dreaming, DS.
La-LA LAND
Stokes never played without JR. Don’t you think that helped Stokes and SY? Or do you think the QB does everyghing?
DS,
Stokes played all but 3 quarters of the ’98 season without JR you idiot. Did you ever see a 49er game before 2005?
jack
Stop writing to me. Got that? A 2 year old can follow directions. You aren’t as smart as a 2 year old. Anybody who can’t follow simple 1 step directions is not going to have any power. Something you can’t handle.
Remember that SY didn’t throw to JR only. He had an up and coming WR in TO and used Brent Jones and Ricky Watters to garner some of those HOF votes.
Steve Young was a wild stallion who BW molded into a winner. But the talent and the heart were attributes that SY always possessed.
Damn straigt. Cant say I ever seen a qb in the history of the NFL with a bigger heart than Steve Young. Although he will always be second fiddle to JM, He is still a legend in SF AND the NFL. Watch the soundbites of him in the games. Thats what I want from Smith. When Smith knows he can and will win, he will be that true leader, and he WILL make the weapons around him very dangerous. Man I cant wait for this season.
MD,
Just to be fair, DS never said that SY did not have heart. That was something I added in my convo with DS regarding one of SY’ attributes.
AES/md
I have said in the past that I think SY was better, and my proof is how he willed the team to victory for the last half of his Niner career.
Please stop making stuff up.
PS AES I do appreciate you correcting md.
Never said that ds did say that SY didnt have heart. That was my take on Steve Young. So ds…. AES didnt correct anybody you Rat!
DS, here is one quick list that I found to validate that Steve Young found other Receivers aside from Jerry Rice to pad his HOF numbers. Obviously, Jerry Rice was his ‘ace’ WR.
The top five players catching touchdown passes from Steve Young were:
#5 – J.J. Stokes caught 13 touchdowns thrown to him by this the San Francisco 49ers number eight.
#4 – One of the quarterback’s favorite targets was tight end Brent Jones who took in 22 TD receptions from him.
#3 – Third on the list is longtime 49er John Taylor who caught 23 touchdown passes during his career from Steve Young.
#2 – Controversial receiver Terrell Owens caught the second most touchdown passes from Young with 24.
#1 – All time great Jerry Rice sits atop the list by far though, having caught an amazing 85 touchdown passes thrown to him by Young.
Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/3527975
WTF? Is that idiot talking about now? Ds you are a true dummy! Did you ever watch the 49ers before 05? This is where your computer 49ers “knowledge” bited you in th *ss. Let “it” have it AES
Grant
md is really improving the maturity level of your blog. The PD should consider putting him on the payroll for his well thought out rebutals done with remarkable witt and skill.
AES
I never said that SY didn’t have any others. Have no idea how you concluded that. But SY and all those guys did have JR demanding 2 – teams, which helped them all. What did we lack last year? A WR who demands 2-teams. What did we get? 3 new WR’s hoping one will demand 2- teams come playoff time.
And we lacked a qb that couldnt find open recievers. Wise up Dummy. Its not everyone elses fault all the time. Tell Grant that. You Rat
DS,
Although I never took your SY ‘take’ as a serious denigration, I do take umbrage with your comment “JR outlasted SY.” While you are correct in theory that JR outlasted SY, this remark comes over as completely unfair and disrespectful in your context.
Jerry Rice “outlasted” SY because if you recall, SY was sent to an early retirement after being blindsided by a vicious hit by Aeneas Williams that Lawrence Phillips failed to pick up (aaaaarggggg!). I’m still peeved to this day by that play…
AES
From NFL stats:
JR played in 303 games. SY played in 169 games (+134 games for JR. Or put another way, 80% more games than SY)
JR played for 21 seasons. SY played for 15 seasons (+6 seasons for JR)
JR started his NFL career in 1985. SY started his NFL career in 1985 (surprise for me as well). But, that was with the Bucs, so do those really count?
JR ended his NFL career in 2004. Steve Young ended his career in 1999.
So, in nearly every possible measurement, JR outlasted SY. He also outlasted JM. You don’t get over 200 TD’s if you don’t outlast just about everybody you played with.
PS. SY in his second year (the year before being traded to the Niners, played in 14 games. Threw for about 2200 yards and had 8TD/13 Int.) Then they traded him. So, did TB think they had a franchise guy in SY? We can definitively say “NO.”
Do you really think SY plays for another 134 games? That is 8.375 seasons with or without that hit or with/without any concussion issues?
Once again DS, you are correct in theory. But i’m sure that SY would have continued to play if not for the concussion suffered by the Aeneas Williams hit. That fact should be taken into account otherwise your comment comes over as brash and inconsequential.
DS94everXev says:
July 6, 2012 at 8:39 pm
AES
“I never said that SY didn’t have any others. Have no idea how you concluded that.”
Well DS, I kinda came to this conclusion with your “SY stank without JR” comment.
Would SY have had a HOF career without JR? Likely not.
But did he “stank” without JR? Absolutely not.
Hence my list of other receivers who contributed to SY’ HOF stats.
Also, SY garnered some HOF consideration on his ability to run as well.
DS, here is an excerpt from Wikipedia:
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
“Young signed with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1985 after being the first player selected in the 1984 NFL Supplemental Draft of USFL and CFL Players. However, the Buccaneers posted 2–14 records in each of Young’s two seasons with them, and Young’s record as starter was 3–16. In his 19 games, he threw for only 11 touchdowns with 21 interceptions while completing fewer than 55% of his passes. Although his time in Tampa Bay was miserable, San Francisco 49ers coach Bill Walsh was impressed by Young’s natural abilities and felt that his problems were due to the struggling Bucs organization.”
Pay special attention to the last few lines. Bill Walsh certainly did not think that SY “stank” when he brought him over t0 the 49ers.
AES
When SY came, JR was here. When he left, JR was here. JR nearly doubled SY’s games played! Ironman was termed to describe JR.
Of course BW saw something in SY. But SY needed BW. Without him, he isn’t going to the HOF without a ticket of admission. And he did nothing HOF worthy in TB.
It was a safe gamble for BW. If SY stank, it cost us near nothing. It was a 3rd round pick I believe we traded. JM was here, so we were fine QB wise. JR was great when SY signed. JR was great when SY signed here. At worst, he was good when SY left. When SY arrived, he was not great. Guess who I think helped elevate the other the most?
Read those last few lines yourself. Sounds like JH describing AS. With his failings being largely due to the fact the Niners have been like TB was then, the past decade till last year.
Just like I had faith in BW getting SY, I have faith in JH getting AS here. And just like what BW did for SY, JH can do for AS. You should as well. After last year, there is no reason to doubt.
PS Find a single time in sports history where a team brought in a player because they thought the guy “sucked”. You get nothing in return so it is a thank-less task. Of course you won’t find it. It never happened in history.
And nothing you quoted numbers wise suggests SY didn’t suck. 3-16 record and 11TD vs 21 Int (nearly 2:1 Int to TD ratio) is not great, good, average. Then the team dumped him off. Maybe you think there are various levels of suck, but everything but BW’s quote says “suck” to me. To compare, AS was better in his first 19 games. Stats and W-L wise. The truth hurts those who refuse it.
DS,
I certainly hope you’re right about the BW/SY to JH/AS comparision, but time will tell and the jury is still out on that.
Well ‘sucked’ could be another metaphor for ‘stank’ so you have to get yourself out of that one, since I never mentioned that SY ‘stank.’
In any case, SY is a HOF’r and how he got there should not fall totally on JR’ shoulders as your comment implies.
SY is the 2nd best QB this Org has had next to Joe Montana. No one can dispute JM’ stature as the Orgs best (and arguably the NFL) ever.
But could JM have run for a TD the way SY did against the Vikings?
Could JM had run without a helmet on a broken play the way SY did?
This in no way denigrates JM. I merely say this to build a case that SY had a tremendous amount of talent and heart that warranted his HOF entrance.
I ask you this; Does SY make it into the HOF solely on his 85 TD’ to JR?
I don’t think he would.
@AES
If SY threw 85 TD to JR, and became the #1 combo at the time, and somehow didn’t throw many more, that is “Twilight Zone” material. That stat alone tells me anyway that those 2 guys are pretty good together. And that SY is better than most.
But without that SuperBowl win, I bet you SY is not 1st ballot HOF. He is just 1/4 the equal to Jim Kelly if he loses it.
And my comment also imples (actually says) that SY got lucky. Also that he had BW. And that great D. And as you point out, JT/TO. You need alk those things to get where SY got. You’ve implied that SY was great before coming here. I merely stated he wasn’t. He worked hard and had a lot of luck coming here. How many HOF QB’s didn’t have great WR’s? My point is that SY didn’t make JR great. He already was. And most QB’s don’t take control of a new gig with a HOF WR in his prime. Those things helped SY. SY alwaysknew when he was in trouble, he had JR (and others) to fall back on. Quite an advantage over AS or just about anybody else (what I call luck).
It is interesting how JH and BW came from Stanford.
@AES
Your asking that clown about QB’s making the Hall of Fame, he has stated on here that Dan Marino and Dan Fouts are not elite QB’s because they have not won a Super Bowl. Both of these guys are in the Hall because the Football commitee knows a universe of more knowledge of football then DS .You can make the argument that both Fouts and Marino might be better then SY. I would take SY over them but I am a Niner fan.
Neal,
Me and DS have had some long debates over the years that have degenerated to name calling just a couple of times.
As long as we keep from the vicious name-calling we’re cool. I try my best to keep from hitting below the belt because it only escalates into something ugly which I don’t need.
@AES,
I could care less about the name calling and what your agenda is with her is today, my point is how can you ask her do you think SY belongs in the Hall if he didnot win a Super bowl, if he does not think Fouts and Marino don’t belong in their in her opinion, because according to her the answer is NO, so kind of a wrong person to ask that question, because any football person with some knowledge says both Marino and Fouts belong in the Hall.
DS,
I agree with most of your statement except for I never said that SY was great before coming here. I said that he was a talent and had heart. Obviously Bill Walsh knew that as well.
AES
That is true. You never said SY was great before coming here. But his numbers don’t suggest he was anything special. And average would be stretching it rather favorably in my opinion. And I never saw him play in Tampa, so I can’t refer to anything but stats.
What we have from BW is him saying that he thought he could work thru whatever made SY play to a point where TB was willing to trade him away and he might be something better than it appears to virtually the whole world minus a couple of people. Something about hard-working and heart.
Hmmm. Have I heard something similar from a local HC about a “less than average QB as perceived by many but a few” about this time last year?
And thanks for the reply to Neal. I didn’t read his post, but it was probably not something allowed on Sesame Street. And Neal is not going to admit it, but I was among the first (if not the first) to converse with him and it was quite civil back then.
Except, you say you and I have gotten into it for years. AES, I’ve been posting on this site for less than 1 year. Unless you are suggesting we had telepathically and unknowingly debated before I started posting. Which maybe happened; because you’re not the first to say I’ve been here for years.
:- )
Maybe it seems like years (lol). All good.
DS,
I have not read your polluted blowhole responses in weeks, matter of fact, I thought you were off the site for a couple of days, this place was alot better, the air was fresh and clean, not any longer.
Neal says:
July 7, 2012 at 3:23 pm
@AES,
“I could care less about the name calling and what your agenda is with her is today, my point is how can you ask her do you think SY belongs in the Hall if he didnot win a Super bowl.”
Neal, I don’t know how your CSI work uncovers an ‘agenda’ that I have with DS, but in any case, I don’t have any agendas with DS or anyone else here.
Perhaps i’m misreading your ‘above’ comment, but I don’t recall asking DS anything close to the question you posed. What the?
Never mind AES, you don’t want to respond to the question that is fine. I will move along.
Hey Neal,
Sorry for my harsh response. It’s just that the ‘agenda’ word has been used around here for all the wrong reasons.
But (not being sarcastic) I honestly don’t know what question you are asking me? Please help.
AES,I didnot find you harsh at all, but I am not the sensitive type on here. Never mind on the question.
No probs.
Pretty accurate as far as speed goes Teddy Ginn is hell on wheels, fastest player in redngold! The time I heard he ran at Ohio was 4.29 or so which wouldnt surprise all that much since the man has the most perfect running stride I have ever seen on a football field, belongs in an olympic stadium