What do you think Greg Roman’s motivation is for featuring Michael Crabtree over Vernon Davis and Mario Manningham in the 49ers pass game?
Is it:
- Roman believes Crabtree is the best receiver on the team and one of the best receivers in the NFL.
- People in the organization are invested in Crabtree’s success. They drafted him in the first round in 2009. The people who drafted Vernon Davis in 2006 are no longer in the organization, but the people who drafted Crabtree are. If Crabtree can finally live up to the expectations of being a top draft pick, a lot of members of the 49ers front office will look smart and their stock will go up.
- Crabtree really is the best receiver on the team and one of the best receivers in the NFL.
I think it’s a combination of 1 and 2. What do you think?
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Its number 1. And i agree with roman.
isn’t that #3 then?
I just think those whole Davis/Crabtree thing has gotten blown way out of proportion on this blog. I think the Niners want to have multiple people involved each game – Gore, V. Davis, Crabtree, Manningham, and others. Does it always work out that way? Obviously not, but I don’t think there is anything sinister at play which is what Grant seems to be repeatedly suggesting. This coaching staff is all about winning as are the players. That’s a big part of why they are such a good team right now. Some guys are going to have a big game one week and then it will be someone different the following week. It makes them tough to prepare for and tough to defend. As long as it’s working (they’re winning), I don’t see any reason to raise the alarm.
There isn’t any Davis/MC thing at all except in the minds of a very select few. And none of whom determine anything when it comes down to the actual football part of it.
+1000
+2000
Its the first option, and if Mr. Crabs continues to improve, VD will get less double teams.
The first half of 1 and 3. Crabtree is much better than many are giving him credit for.
I thought you said a few weeks ago that Davis was the best receiver on the team?
I don’t remember saying that…I have been overly vocal in my disagreement on this topic.
Davis is definitely a talent, his abilities as a blocker and receiver make him very difficult to prepare for, but best receiver? I don’t think so.
So you’re saying defenses should double team Crabtree instead of Davis?
It’s #4, Grant, and you know it, I think. It’s all about setting the team up for success by setting the league up to expect both. Must establish Crabtree to achieve that goal.
If he keeps it up they will eventually do something. The 49ers have shown in their last 6 quarters the ability to beat the defense every way possible.
Basically they are saying, you want to focus on Davis, here is Crabtree, Manningham, Walker, Moss, Gore, and Hunter, and so on.
Because Crabs is giving Roman kick-back money every time he gets thrown to; plus Crabs buys him a cheeseburger now and then.
I think Crabtree has proved he is a very good WR in the NFL. His hands have been great this year and he and Alex have great chemistry. Part of the reason i believe Roman targets MC so much is that defenses dont scheme against him like they do to Vernon, or Randy. He does get the #1 Corner but not over the top help.
Maybe it’s because the scouting report on the Niners last year was make the QB and WRs beat you. They want to combat perceptions by showing they can be productive outside and force other teams to defend that. Or maybe they’re just taking what the defense is giving. The running game sucks up the linebackers, Moss and Davis occupy safeties and Crabtree is open underneath.
Oh yeah Crabtree is also really good, but they haven’t always taken advantage of all his skills.
And if they run the offense faster there will be more opportunities for everyone.
Greg Roman and Jim Harbaugh have no vested interest in making Crabtree look good. They weren’t here when the 49ers drafted him. Roman clearly considers Crabtree to be the team’s number 1 WR and most dangerous receiver after the catch (thus he gets a lot of quick passes where he is asked to make something happen after the catch).
I think he is right on both accounts. VD is a great receiver, but not the most elusive player, which is why Crabtree is probably better off getting those short routes in traffic and trying to make something happen. VD with his speed and size is better if you can get him in lots of space or for deep targets.
Easily 1 and 3. Your second choice doesn’t apply Grant. Defenses have been taking Davis out of the game most of the season, so Crabtree will get more throws his way. Plus he’s healthy now, so no reason not to try out the Camaro (Crabtree) when you know what the Ferrari (Davis) can do. Don’t worry, they’ll use both vehicles in the playoffs along with the two wrecking balls in the backfield.
“and one of the best receivers in the NFL.”
eh? you should omit this part… there are 2nd and 3rd tier receivers who have played with QBs of Alex’s caliber or worse and put up 1000 yard seasons with similar amounts of targeted passes.
Crabtree is the most versatile receiver the 9ers have, but either Manningham (best hands/most separation – but seems to shy from the middle of the field) or Kyle Williams (who Greg Cosell proclaimed to be the 9ers’ best route runner) is the best receiver.
I think that versatility is why they feature him. He’s kind of a Dunleavy Jr type player – jack of all trades, master of none.
My concern is that they are missing opportunities. Vernon seems to be getting less stuff designed for him. For all that Roman has tried to do to feature Crabtree – especially in the slot, he is on pace to have similar #’s to last season. I wonder if they would not be more successful designing stuff for Williams in the slot since he is closer to the Welker, Cruz, Harvin, Cobb, Amendola build that has been so successful there. They could get Hunter, Dixon/Miller more involved – The game has changed a lot (especially the exotic blitzes — hell, I don’t even think the zone blitz was around until late in Steve Young’s career), but Craig and Rathman were integral parts of the passing game.
In the AZ game, several times FG had nobody near him when he caught the ball 7 yards downfield because the defesne was 20 yards downfield freaking out about VD. We picked up easy yards and first downs while AZ did that.
That is the BW offense. Clearing zones, then make a 5 yard pass (much higher completion %) with nobody near the receiver offering the opportunity to get lots of YAC if the guy is evasive, rather than throw it 10 yards downfield where the defender is right there to make a tackle preventing any YAC.
Grant those are silly choices. What about 4) Its part of their strategy this year to involve the WRs in the game to a) get practice to build confidence in that phase of the game and b) to make D coordinators have to defend the WRs so they dont’ exclusively focus on stopping the run and doubling VD. Not rocket science or conspiracy theories.
as others have said here, DEFENSES ARE TAKING AWAY DAVIS. I don’t know why you don’t believe that to be true. You seem to think that they can “design plays to get Davis open” to some extent yes if the defense is honestly defending Crabtree…which they aren’t. This isn’t that hard of a concept. What’s the first thing you would do to design a defense to shut down the Niners? 1st take away Gore (to the best of your abilities against the Niner’s exotic personnel groups and formations). 2nd take away their only consistent big play threat Davis! Make Smith throw to his receivers; particularly outside the numbers. Roman knows this so he designs his offense with the intent of taking what the Defense gives him which is Crabtree and sometimes Walker. This goes against Alex Smith’s strengths as a QB so he doesn’t have explosive games.
Maybe because he is healthy for the first time, has real good hands, is getting open and Roman and Alex trust him more.
Yes, it is evident in the way Crab runs that he feels healthier.
I have determined that Crabtree is our No. 1 receiver! (lol).
Nah, not really. But a strong argument can certainly be made to that end now that VD seems to be more of an option rather than the primary WR.
As I said last week, we will need to find a way to get more passes to VD and Manningham for our passing offense to be taken more seriously.
How about D)?
They lost to the Giants in the NFCC even when Vernon went off so they knew that they needed to spend this season developing another weapon so they won’t be so easily defended next time. I believe that they are trying to achieve better balance and unpredictability and that goes beyond Vernon vs Crabtree – they are trying to develop everyone.
This is what’s been being said for 2 or 3 weeks now in one way or another! For some reason, Grant isn’t getting it and won’t let it go!
Vernon had five targets in the NFC Championship game, same as Crabtree.
I’m saying Roman has to develop Vernon because he’s the best receiver on the team.
Grant, it seems to me that they are trying to build chemistry and synergy between MC and AS. They know they have it with VD and AS, but if they are going far into the playoffs, they’ll need MC to participate in a big way. I believe they will start utilizing all of their playmakers on offense in the last half of the season.
To me, it’s not a question of chemistry.
Roman doesn’t do enough with Vernon. Vernon said it himself, “teams are taking away my explosive plays.” That should be impossible. That means Roman only calls a few explosive plays for Vernon and teams are prepared for them. Roman needs to design more plays for Vernon – that’s the adjustment. Not more throws to Crabtree.
The offense would be better if Davis was lining up all over the formation, running all the routes and getting targeted at least 7 times a game.
You can’t be afraid to feed your stud.
Why force feed your stud?
Grant, I agree but now is the time to get the WRs involved before the playoffs. The unfortunate thing is this isn’t BW running this offense. We know what he would do in this situation. I believe that GR does get VD more involved over the next 8 games and into the playoffs.
Grant
We don’t need to develop VD. He and AS are already developed. Have you read your fellow writers pieces about how teams are obsessed with taking VD out of the passing game? That has really opened up things for MC the last few games.
@Grant
“To me, it’s not a question of chemistry”
Well, I don’t know what you wish to call it, but a few weeks back, VD was being interveiwed and was asked how he and AS just seem to have “it”. And he was asked why that was.
His answer didn’t involve any football talk at all. Zip. Zero. Nada. His entire answer was how he and AS have a great relationship with one another. They hang out together. They went to the Obama thing together, they’ve kind of grown up together on the team. Besides FG (who was drafted in the 2nd round after AS in 2005 and knows EVERYTHING about AS and his coaches), VD is the longest tenured playmaker on the Niners.
So, I don’t know if you say relationship=chemistry, but AS and VD have it. And a big concern I have with AS to MC is that I don’t hear of those two building any kind of relationship off the field. So that chemistry AS has with VD, likely won’t happen with MC until that relationship is forged off the field first.
Grant,
Roman is dialing up plays for Davis, but Smith is not pulling the trigger to him. You have NFL Rewind so you can see the following examples.
49ers 2nd possession in AZ. They call a shot play with Moss running a deep post, Davis running a deep corner and Gore leaking into the flat. Moss is doubled by a safety and the corner. Davis only has Wilson in his area, but there is about 5 yards between them and no one over Wilson, to help. If Smith throws deep to Davis it could be an explosive play. Smith looks, stares at it, but then goes to Gore for the sure completion and 11 yard gain keeping the chains moving.
Now go to Rams vs Miami. 2nd Rams possession. They run a similar shot play. On the film the corner and Givens are separated almost exactly like Wilson and Davis. The difference is, Bradford takes the shot, throwing it deep to the numbers just like I described on the play above. The result is a 65 yard completion.
This problem you have with the use of Davis should be directed toward Smith, not Roman. Smith is risk averse.
Thanks for looking that up. That play sounds like the one he dropped in the preseason and one of the four shot plays Roman has called for Davis.
Yes, Smith needs to pull the trigger. Roman needs to expand the playbook for Vernon, as well.
And there it is, Hack Jammer shows his true agenda. I knew you were always a hater. You did your best to mask it but looks like GC got it out of you. Ha!
Where did I say I have a problem with it Prime? The throw to Gore was a sure thing, got them a first down, and eventually a TD. The point is, Roman called a play that could have gone to Davis, Smith chose to go elsewhere. This thing about Roman needing to develop plays for Davis is somewhat nonsensical.
Yeah whatever Jack. You point all inefficiencies in the playcalling, the losses, the scheme of choice all Alex’s Smith’s way. It’s the hater way, blame Smith for everything. You do it indirectly, but you do it.
Dont pretend anymore.
Prime, We already had this discussion with Grant and Hofer back when you were welching on your bet with Bay and posting as Axel Foley.
Denial. Another trait of the haters. Next will be you know what the coaches are thinking inside their minds and after that, predictions that never come true. Just watch.
You got it Prime.
http://ninerchatter.blogspot.com/2012/10/alex-smiths-game-for-ages.html
I told you I do not do amateur hour. Your act is weak and all your comments on here prove it. The Viking loss, who did you blame? Yeah, it’s called talking out of both sides of your mouth. Like I said, just watch.
The Viking loss was due to the defense allowing 24 points, Smith missing a couple of opportunities for 7 instead of 3 in the Red Zone and a blocked FG.
Settling for FG’s cost them 8 points, and the blocked FG was another 3. They lost by 11.
Smith didn’t play horrible in that game, but having to settle for 3 on those red zone opportunities came back to haunt them in the end.
Oh but this morning it was that Smith’s missed opportunities changed the complexion of the game. Now tonight it’s the defense? GTF outta here!
You got me Prime. I’m a jive turkey gobble gobble and you are the baster right?
Prime Slime Axel Foley Midget Welcher. Your just like the man crush you love, you are both limited and have alot of flaws and love to get sacked by big men.
BINGO Jack!
There you have it folks. Prime Time is the self proclaimed MASTER BASTER of the blog.
Poor Primate is having Thanksgiving alone once again.. No Smither invites.
I think he could stand to move Vernon around the formation more too, but you are overstating the importance of it. The number 1 most important thing for this offense is to not abandon the running game. That’s the area where they are most improved under Roman and where they are now best in the league. That’s where they need to hang their hats. Obsessing over getting any particular person involved in the passing game should be secondary. When you continually harp on getting Vernon the ball you are distracting people from the best way for this offense to be successful, not pointing it out. If you want to criticize Roman for something, criticize him for abandoning the run game in the meeting room before both games we lost.
Neal,
Like I mentioned to Hofer earlier, can’t we just stay away from this childish blamer/hater/Smither stuff?
Jack
Whether you meant to, this morning the thing you pointed out in that Viking loss was AS first. When I among others brought up the D being responsible, your first reply was to tell me the thread wasn’t about the D, but AS and Roman. Then you replied saying the D only gave up 24 and the offense had won last year when the D did that, as if to point out giving up 24+ wasn’t a big deal.
You don’t bring up how the D dominated Philly (last years game) in the 2nd half though. In the Vikings game, they gave up a LONG time consuming 80 yard drive after our 3rd quarter TD. That stopped our gained momentum in the 3rd quarter. Which matters a great deal more than it being stopped in the 2nd quarter. You spent a great deal of energy telling me it wasn’t the D earlier today, then to say it was the D just 15 hours or so later.
Jack, you tend to write posts where you defend a player/coach/etc., then go out of your way to discredit your prior posts points where you appear to be agreeing with those who you disagreed with earlier without actually saying you do.
I personally think you like watching everybody going off on you as you sit there laughing in front of your computer, but that’s just a guess of mine.
Jack
Wheather you meant to, this morning the thing you pointed out in that Viking loss was AS first. When I among others brought up the D being responsible, your first reply was to tell me the thread wasn’t about the D, but AS and Roman. Then you replied saying the D only gave up 24 and the offense had won last year when the D did that, as if to point out giving up 24+ wasn’t a big deal.
You don’t bring up how the D dominated Philly (last years game) in the 2nd half though. In the Vikings game, they gave up a LONG time consuming 80 yard drive after our 3rd quarter TD. That stopped our gained momentum in the 3rd quarter. Which matters a great deal more than it being stopped in the 2nd quarter. You spent a great deal of energy telling me it wasn’t the D earlier today, then to say it was the D just 15 hours or so later.
Jack, you tend to write posts where you defend a player/coach/etc., then go out of your way to discredit your prior posts points where you appear to be agreeing with those who you disagreed with earlier without actually saying you do.
I personally think you like watching everybody going off on you as you sit there laughing in front of your computer, but that’s just a guess of mine.
DS,
Here is what I typed about the Minnesota game earlier this morning. It is almost the same thing I said tonight when questioned.
Jack Hammer says:
November 8, 2012 at 8:35 am
Under,
For the most part I agree with you. Smith did not play his worst game against the Vikes, he just missed on a couple of key plays that change the complexion of the game.
And yes the defense struggled, giving up long drives. But at the end of the day they still held them to 24 points. One major difference in that game was when Minnesota had the ball in the Red Zone they came away with 7. When the 49ers had the ball in the Red Zone they came away with 3.
As Steve Young used to say, “settling for FG’s is setting yourself up to lose” or something close to that : )
And DS, if they had put the ball in the endzone on those two trips and Akers made that FG, they would have been up 24-17 before the defense gave up that LONG time consuming drive you mentioned.
As they say, “If if’s and but’s were candy and nuts, we’d all have a Merry Christmas.”
Why is gr getting all of the blame? AS is the qb, and AS makes the decisions on where to pass. Since this talk has come up I watched VD specifically against Seattle. He was not draped the whole game and was open for good chunk yards if Smith had pulled the trigger. I think AS found a hot hand in MC early and stuck with it. 1 play that you ca actually see on the TV was the sideline throw to FG. VD had his man beat and the help over the top wasn’t in range to make a play if AS had thrown the ball to VD. He even looked his way and decided to check down to fg. With NO pressure. VD’s shots have been there. It’s on AS to take them. They aren’t many, but there are some there and they will make great chunk yard plays if not td’s. quit putting all of the blame on the OC.
And what is this crap about VD and AS having a wonderful relationship off the field? Wtf is this about? What MAN or 49er fan would put that much stock into two men’s friendly ways off the field. Bs this isn’t life and style magazine. All that should matter to a man at least is their chemistry on the field. Get out of here with that bromance crap. That doesn’t win superbowls. Really though. Who thinks or cares about that crap?
Jack
Your last 2 posts are exactly what I’m talking about. You end the first 1 saying some subtle thing about Halloween with candy and ‘if’s’ (no mention of the holiday, but your mention of candy…that is your fault :-), then immediately say “if…” then, the Niners win. Of course if the D had Int the ball for a pick 6 (Whitner actually dropped it once) and our D just done that evey posession (like the Niners scorein thhe redzone every time), we’d win.
Yes Jack. They would have won if they had scored TD’s every time they are in the red-zone. Of course expecting a team to score TD’s in the redzone 100% of the time is asking for a bit much. Not even JM did that.
And yes. If AS did score TD’s every time we would be the greatest offense of all time. We would win evey game. You’re putting quite a large piece of candy (score TD’s every time) in that wish bag of yours if that is what you really want/think is possible.
DS,
It was Christmas : )
This offense is based on a power-running game and the passing game complements that. The team gets a lot of single-high looks because D’s are loading the box and Vernon’s best play in the passing game is the seam against 2-high coverage. Vernon is better at blocking than running routes. Roman is just taking advantage of what defenses give him. There’s no hidden agenda. The goal is to win games.
Well, it’s certainly not #2.
The men calling the plays call the plays they think will give them the best chance to win. They’re not going to do anything otherwise in an effort to make the scouts or brass look good, but hurt the team.
The current management’s stock will go up if the 49ers are successful. The only path to success is to do what it takes to win.
I honestly don’t know why you can’t accept that fact that the additional coverage VD sees makes other offensive options the preferred choice. This is basic stuff. Am I missing something???
Amen!
Sorry Grant but this is not an issue for 49ers! GR simply targets Crabtree to build his chemistry with Alex to make the offense more productive! GR understands Davis can connect with Alex and without involving other offensive weapons we can not win the big game! In addition, defenses are focusing more on VD so crabs productivity will payoff eventually.
It isn’t about picking favorites in the offense, you have to have multiple tools in your shed. Let a team prepare for Vernon all week so we’ll come at them with Crabtree and Mario and if they take away the receivers then we’ll throw Gore at them and when they try and take away Gore we’ll start hitting Davis. Why in the world do you feel a need to turn our offense into a one trick pony when we have one of the most balanced offenses in the league.
If you spend all week creating a plan to involve Davis and the defense still ends up taking him away, now what do you do. You have to start running plays you haven’t run in a couple weeks and your success rate drops significantly. Why would a smart offensive coordinator hand cuff himself like that?
The reason that the crabtree is getting the ball more than Davis is very simple. Defenses are game planning to stop Davis not Crabtree. Defensive coordinators believe that Davis can beat them and Crabtree is not yet able to do that. Another game like the ariz game and it might switch.
I can put a game plan together to take an individual receiver out of a game its not difficult. Whats more difficult is taking an individual receiver out of a game but not getting beat elsewhere. Forcing the ball to a receiver when another one is open would be silly. Thats why Roman and Smith are’nt throwing the ball to Davis.
It was impossible to take Terrell Owens out of a game when he was 27 and 28 years old. The same should apply to Vernon Davis.
TO’s QB would stick it in tiny windows to get him the ball. Therein lies the difference.
And Greg Knapp wasn’t afraid to call his number 10 times a game.
Or 20+ as the Bears found out. BTW, Davis is no where near the receiver that Owens was during his time here.
Davis is bigger, faster and he has better hands.
Better hands? No.
Davis has tremendous straight line speed, but he does not have a short area burst like Owens did. You will never see Davis catch a ball on a curl, then restart and beat the defender, like Owens could. All of Davis’ explosive plays come with him running at full speed already and making the catch.
Definitely better hands. Owens dropped a ton of passes.
I concede the short area burst to Owens, but Davis is better in every other conceivable way.
^ This is why I’ve been saying that Davis isn’t the best receiver on the team. He’s a sprinter that can sometimes haul in a pass but he’s not anywhere near the caliber of real NFL wide receiver when it comes to the ability to catch a pass.
That’s baloney. He’s the best athlete on the offense, one of the best in the NFL. Imagine what Dirk Koetter and Matt Ryan could do with VD.
There is no comparison between Vernon and any true X receiver (Moss, Owens, Calvin Johnson etc..) Vernon Davis couldn’t hold those guys jocks when it comes to who is a better wide receiver.
Vernon Davis is not an X receiver and has no business being compared to one.
Vernon could easily play the X at a Pro Bowl level.
No, imagine what Ryan could do with Crabtree, Manningham, Moss AND Davis.
Do you think Drew Brees would only throw passes to Davis if he was on the team? Good QB’s spread the ball around as do good OC’s.
Ryan and Koetter would feature Davis, no question. They’re not afraid to feed the stud. Crabtree is a role player. A Jack. Vernon is an Ace, but Roman uses him as a Joker.
No he couldn’t. He doesn’t have the skill set. He doesn’t run polished routes, he doesn’t have the hands nor does he have the ability to read the defense and run the proper route for what is being given to him. A great QB would quickly become frustrated with VD.
None of that is true.
That lack of short area burst is what limits the routes on which Davis can make those explosive plays you want. Davis will catch that 6 yard hitch over the middle, and it is a 6 yard gain. Crabtree can catch that same route and now you have a 15 yard completion because he has a better burst.
Crabtree does not have a better burst than Davis. Crabtree is the master of getting tackled as soon as he catches the ball. He has one good game against the Cardinals and all of a sudden he’s Victor Cruz.
BTW, Greg Knapp was/is a terrible OC I cant believe you would use him as an example.
Who in the NFL has praised Roman’s pass scheme?
Nobody because they are two busy praising him for using the run game to win games.
If the pass scheme was praise-worthy, they would have praised him for it. Coaches are over-the-top with their praise before games.
Crabtree has more YAC than Cruz and has played 1 less game. He is having a better all around season as well.
Crabtree is who he is, and he isn’t Cruz. He’s a Jack.
Crabtree has had three good games. 1. Against the Packers when he was covered in the slot by Nick Perry 2. Against the Bills who quit 3. Against Patrick Peterson, who is overrated.
Crabtree can be shut down 1-on-1 by bad cornerbacks like Corey Webster.
Everything I said was true. The reason I know it is because if he could he’d be an X receiver. Why would you use him at all as a Y if he is a legit X? If Owens could block like a guard would they have lined him up as a TE?
Because Davis is one of the best blocking tight ends and Roman doesn’t think outside the box with Vernon.
but Davis is better in every other conceivable way.
I really like Vernon Davis and would like to see the 49ers find a way to get him the ball more, but that’s just a silly statement.
Cruz has been targeted 100 times, Crabtree 55. That is the only reason Cruz has better numbers…
Yeah, that and skill and athletic ability.
Look you seem to forget that Harbaugh is an offensive minded coach. If he didn’t like what was going on he’d tell Roman to do it differently but he isn’t and why is that? Why is it that Harbaugh doesn’t seem to mind that Vernon Davis isn’t being more involved?
They’re more invested in Crabtree’s success. That’s why Harbaugh said that ridiculous statement about his hands before the season.
Jack go and ask your friend who he thinks is better suited to play the X, VD or TO? OK, ok that might be a tainted question given those two past relationship but maybe Jeff can still give an objective answer.
@ Grant:
When did Dirk Koetter become your God? The man’s had a very good half-season of football as an NFL offensive coordinator, and you hold him up as if he were Bill Walsh reincarnated.
By the way, Koetter’s Falcons produce exactly 7.6 more yards of offense per game than do Roman’s 49ers.
7.6. Yards. Per game.
7.6
Michael Turner is terrible.
HA!! Who has the most drops among Wide Receivers in the league?
Every single GM would take Cruz and Davis over Crabtree, but you’d take Crabtree. I respect your unique opinion.
It’s hard to not see you as just a blind hater at this point Grant. I love the opinions and your strong stance on them and it makes for fun horse racing as you like to say but at some point you have to regain some composure of objectivity. Calling out Roman as incompetent and Harbaugh as willing to look the other way when the team is 6-2 sounds like a nutty conspiracy theory and certainly isn’t doing much for the credibility of a still green sports journalist.
And yes I acknowledge that if the record was reversed to 2-6 that suddenly your “nutty theory” suddenly holds water but that isn’t the case or the situation we’re in.
Roman is a very good with the run game, but he has a lot of room for improvement in the pass game. And the team is still being carried by the defense.
“He has a lot of work to do in featuring the TE in his pass game.”
Fixed it for ya.
No need to be hostile and call me a hater and green and annotate my comments. We’re having a philosophical discussion about how to use a unique matchup problem like Vernon Davis. I respect opposing view points on the matter. Everyone articulates their points well and I enjoy philosophical football discussions.
Jack, I like MC but he isn’t close to VCruz. He isn’t close to RWayne. Did you see him turning the CBs around last night? ALuck didn’t have to throw it into tight windows because RWayne ran outstanding routes. My gut still tells me they are trying to get MC ready down the stretch for the playoffs. They don’t want another disaster like the Championship game when the receivers disappeared.
You didn’t answer my question about the leader in drops.
Cruz would be snatched up by teams like Washington or Dallas. Those that do their due diligence would see that Crabtree is the more complete player.
Wow. Way to come out and say it. I respect that. Don’t agree, but respect it.
Here’s my follow up question: In your estimation, is Crabtree the best receiver in the NFL or just the second best?
Was either of our two losses because we didn’t feature VD more? In both of our losses the universal complaint was that we didn’t establish our run game, I don’t remember hearing anyone say that either loss came because we didn’t feature Davis more in the passing game.
When we have a game that we’ve established our run game and the defense is taking away our receivers and Roman doesn’t start using plays to get Davis open THEN you can start asking endless questions about why. Until that point actually occurs you cant simply assume that Roman has forgotten how to use the TE in the passing game.
It’s about setting yourself up for success in the playoffs. I think the 49ers offense would be best served if Vernon Davis were developed as an Ace in the pass game before the playoffs, so they can use him as an Ace when it counts. Instead, he’s a Joker, just like Delanie Walker. We’ll see how it works out.
Hofer,
You like Crabtree in much the same way Houston likes Alex Smith.
@ Grant:
I respect opposing view points on the matter.
Not when you write things like “Vernon Davis is a better receiver than Terrell Owens was in every conceivable way (other than short area burst)”.*
————
* Not an exact quote, but it captures the content of what your wrote.
I’m getting hungry. Is it almost time for lunch ; )
Wasn’t being hostile at all Grant, possibly frustrated but certainly not hostile. The annotated comments was supposed to be taken light heartedly.
As far as calling you a hater I think isn’t too far fetched given how fervently you’ve been arguing your point and to the extent at which you constantly bring it up. You’ve all but called Roman incompetent so to consider you to be a bit of a hater on Roman isn’t completely outrageous at this point in the conversation.
Calling you green wasn’t an insult. Anyone new or relatively new to a profession is green. I intentionally chose the word to not be insulting.
I’m not calling him incompetent. He’s very good at scheming the run game. He has areas where he can improve, like everyone.
And if I’m green, so is Greg Roman. He’s had 26 games as an offensive coordinator.
Jack, you’ve lost credibility with this string of comments! LOL
I’m not seeking credibility from you or anyone else Hofer.
You see VD not being targeted more as a failing and I disagree. He’s opened up the offense so that defense don’t know what to prepare for each week. If we were losing then he’d have to change it up and probably feature VD a little more but we’re not so he can continue to do what he’s doing which is making it harder and harder for defenses to know where to focus other then trying to stop our run game. If a team is successful in doing that now we’re not handicapped at only throwing the ball to VD which a defense can also take away.
If anything Roman has made our offense significantly better by making it harder to prepare for.
We’ll see how the offense performs in the playoffs. That’s all that matters. If Roman doesn’t develop Davis into an Ace in the regular season, he won’t be an Ace in the playoffs.
Coffee,
I’ve been here a long time and have followed MM, EB, and now GC. Everyone has a different style. My take isn’t that GC is saying GR is incompetent because clearly he is an expert in the run game, but sometimes his game plans, as it pertains to game by game matchups in the passing game, seem light. GC has pointed out, and I agree, that the offense needs to be at an optimal level with both the run and pass moving towards the playoffs. Top playoff teams are not one dimensional.
So again, I don’t see that GC has minimized GR completely.
Thanks, Hofer. That’s exactly what I’m saying.
You’re picking up on a single word that I used and creating an entire defense around it but it’s hardly my main point.
Coffee,
What is your main point? While Hofer agrees with Grant’s argument, I agree with yours. Give us your main point, it may have been lost in the back and forth.
Jack, I am on lunch! So…I have to chime in.
Crabtree is very good, stifled in a relatively conservative, run-heavy offence. He’s a very good blocker, a trait receivers never get credit for. However, in pretty much every other aspect, Cruz is better (hands, maybe Crabtree….) Cruz is one of the premiere receivers in the league, IMO.
Vernon is a good receiving TE. His hands aren’t terrible, but they’re certianly not hall of fame worthy, his body control when catching is once in a while awkward (over the shoulder seam catches are about as tricky as they come though…), and his ability to make people miss in space is probably his weakest suit. All that said, we’re judging him by very high standards. He’s a ProBowl talent receiving TE, and an All-Pro blocker – best in the league of those that regularly go into pass patterns.
After the loss to the Giants last year all anyone talked about was how we needed better targets in the passing game. They all pointed to how VD was the only one catching passes in the game and that IF we had somehow gotten Crabtree more involved that we might have had better success on offense. Roman knows how to use VD, he did it all last year. The team didn’t need to spend time this year on using VD more they needed to figure out how to get the other receivers more involved. We all beat the team up for not having a better more rounded passing game and now that they do we’ll start complaining that they need to use VD more to prove that they can? I don’t think they need to prove anything or give teams any more film then they already have on how to stop VD. When the time comes he’ll be there and if he’s needed I cant see any reason to assume we wont know how to use him.
Crabtree was targeted on 25 percent of the passes last season. Davis was targeted on 21 percent and he played more games than Crabtree. It’s highly debatable whether Roman has ever fully taken advantage of Vernon. In the NFC Championship, both Crabtree and Vernon were targeted five times. That was a mistake.
Well said Coffee. I was one of those beating them up about needing receivers. The second half of last year the passing stats after a game pretty much were just Crabtree and Davis. Now you have Crabtree, Davis, Manningham, Moss, Walker, Williams, Gore, Hunter all involved. They don’t need Davis to catch 5 passes right now to win.
The 49ers are now able to stretch teams out both horizontally and vertically. The passing game is very diverse, but due to their balance and success running, it doesn’t get the praise that it deserves.
Barring some unforeseen craziness, this team is going to be in the playoffs, and that is where they will ultimately be judged. Everything we see now is preparation for those 3-4 games.
I completely agree with your last paragraph, and that’s why I feel Roman should develop Davis as an Ace even though they can win right now without him.
Targeting % is only part of it though Grant because Roman isn’t the QB throwing the ball. You can’t possibly know on how many pass plays called last year or this for that matter that Roman might have preferred or intended to the ball to go to a certain receiver and it went somewhere else instead.
Jack said: “They don’t need Davis to catch 5 passes right now to win.”
That was one of my earliest points/questions to Grant when he started this conversation. Do the 49ers need VD to catch more then 3 or 5 passes a game to win anymore.
I pointed out that in the past when VD had a big games we often lost those matches so there is no historical correlation between Davis having a big day and the 49ers winning.
How about the playoffs 10 months ago.
Going against my own belief and suggestion I’ll point out the possibility that maybe VD is already an ACE and the team doesn’t feel a need to give teams any more tape of him until the playoffs. Is there reason to believe that the offense doesn’t feel comfortable with VD in the passing game?
There are only a few explosive plays Roman calls for VD. VD said it and Cosell said it. They worked in the playoffs last year because Roman didn’t call them in the regular season for VD. They’re not working now because defenses have adjusted. It’s time for Roman to draw up and coach up a few more. Defenses are ready for the wheel route.
The Y-Stick Nod is a good option. I don’t know why Roman doesn’t call it.
Grant said:”How about the playoffs 10 months ago.”
Are you pointing to a single game as an example? And are you talking about last year when we had a limited passing game unlike this year?
If they are stashing him on the shelf then they are only going to call a few “shot” plays for him. There is a whole idea of not giving teams film on him and that appears to be what they are doing. When Roman starts calling plays for Davis, that they’ve been practicing in the closed practices that you dont get to see, that other teams haven’t seen on film all year in the playoffs we’ll go “ahhh, that’s why.”
Grant said: “They worked in the playoffs last year because Roman didn’t call them in the regular season for VD”
!!!!!!! Why don’t you think that is what’s happening right now.
I don’t think that trick won’t work two years in a row. I think it’s time for new VD plays. We’ll see how it turns out.
If you ever get a chance to see or hear the names of other plays I’d love to read them. That’s fun stuff.
Vernon would be deadly on a Texas route from the backfield.
Angus,
I appreciate your opinion on Cruz/Crabtree. Cruz is averaging fewer yards per reception than Crabtree on passes thrown 1-10 yards (8.14 to 10.9), and 11-20 (13.6 to 16). Cruz has only 2 receptions more than Crabtree on passes thrown 31-40, which makes sense considering Manning has thrown 14 passes of that distance compared to only 6 by Smith.
Besides hands, which you say maybe Crabtree, Crabtree has Cruz beat in YAC, is only 1 yard behind in avg, due to Cruz’s 3 deep catches, and MC is a better blocker.
Other than public perception due to highlights, where is Cruz premier and Crabtree is not?
In football the ends justify the means.
If we make it to and eventually win the Super Bowl and during that stretch of playoff and SB games Davis averages 3 catches for 50 yards a game and only two TD’s the whole stretch are you going to criticize Roman after winning the Super Bowl for not utilizing VD more? At what point can you just accept that winning is good enough.
No, of course I wouldn’t in that scenario.
Vernon out of the backfield only works if you put him in the backfield occasionally on run downs, which they don’t.
It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t try it.
Roman should line up Davis outside Crabtree more often. Run a Red Right Y Outside formation. That’s classic West Coast offense. It gives Smith a nice defined pre-snap read, too. If the corner covers Davis, it’s man coverage. If the safety covers Davis, it’s zone.
Grant said: “They worked in the playoffs last year because Roman didn’t call them in the regular season for VD”
!!!!!!! Why don’t you think that is what’s happening right now.
===========================
Agreed.
And Grant, when one runs the Y Stick Nod play, what button do you press to pass it to VD?
For me its the X button on PS3.
My favorite TE play that I haven’t seen run in a long while is where the TE sets up to block but then falls down to a knee like he’s hurt or stumbled and then pops up after a second and sneaks out into a gap. Great red zone TD play.
I used to do that in middle school when I played touch football.
“flip right double-X jet 36 counter naked waggle seven X quarter”
love it!
“I used to do that in middle school when I played touch football.”
That’s why I love to see it in the pro’s!
Doing that creates a simple key for the defense.
How so?
Davis doesn’t line up in the backfield on run plays. Presnap the defense now knows it is pass and can adjust accordingly.
It would work better from a formation or motion that they use often. Much better disguise.
I thought you were referring to Y Outside
No. I actually agree with you on that one.
Cheers to that.
Jack,
RE: Crabtree-Cruz,
I’d say (and this is only own, untrained eye-ball test), the route running separates them. Cruz is like a jitterbug injected with caffeine in the slot. His “short area burst” jumps out at me. I’ve always thought Crabs looks slower on tv than he actually plays, if that makes any sense.
All that been said, I’m probably influenced by the stats that Cruz puts up in a passing offense. I really like Crabtree, I think he’s tremendously underrated by the public.
Interesting to see what goes on when his contract is up, after next year I think?
Good stuff Angus. Let’s hope MC makes that decision tough on them.
The difference between Owens and Davis is TO was a WR and Davis is a TE. its much easier to take a TE out of a game then it is a WR. Now i know the next arguement is then split Davis out and you could do that intermittenly but by doing that you are taking the best blocking TE in football out of your running game or just telling the other team hey we’re passing this down and we know how well tipping your plays worked for singletary.
Walker can block. So can Celek. Make the defense adjust to Davis all over the formation.
What you’re saying is make him a WR who can play a little TE. I do not believe his skills transfer to the WR spot anymore than crabtree’s skills transfer to that of a TE. If Crabtree continues to have success and Moss is targeted a little more. I think defenses will have to adjust and once again we will see Davis having huge games.
I’m saying use him everywhere – at tight end, in the slot, out wide, even out of the backfield. He’s a stud athlete. The 49ers need to discover the limit of his abilities.
Ace players get double-teamed. You can’t concede your Ace. The Texans don’t stop throwing to Andre Johnson because defenses focus on him.
Also Walker and Celek can block but they are’nt ANYWHERE near Davis’s league