Strategy decisions may have cost 49ers chance for win at Arizona

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SANTA CLARA — Game management could be an ongoing issue for the 49ers’ inexperienced coaching staff this season, although head coach Kyle Shanahan did not question his game management at his Monday news conference.

On Sunday, two questionable coaching decisions may have cost the 49ers a win, or at least a tie, against the Cardinals. The 49ers lost 18-15. The first questionable decision came from rookie defensive coordinator Robert Saleh.

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This article has 158 Comments

  1. The zone coverage at the end of the game was frustrating, but something a lot of teams do. It may be a misconception, but to me it seems it doesn’t work more often than it does so I don’t know why so many teams do it.

    I definitely would have preferred taking the sack than the penalty in that situation. I was really surprised when Shanahan accepted the penalty. But on that Ward PI, it may just be the replays weren’t very good, but I really couldn’t see what exactly Ward did to draw the PI flag? Did anyone see something I missed?

    1. Scooter,
      I agree with everything you said there…
      In all honesty I thought the PI was kind of a makeup call for the non-touchdown call just before that.

      All in all I would say we got more breaks than AZ did in this game. We just couldn’t capitalize on offense.

      1. and both offenses played sloppy…both D’s were looking competent…no doubt helped by offensive dysfunction from both teams…

  2. Well, at least this time you didn’t “grace” us all with how you would have made better coaching decisions and saved the day. I do find it somewhat ironic though, that you call out an assistant for his age and lack of coaching experience, and yet you more often than not carry on as if you are the 2nd coming of Bill Walsh. Just out of curiosity and to call a spade a spade, when did you graduate, what was your degree in, and how much coaching experience do you have?

  3. One day we may look back fondly on “the Tomsula era”, though short and sweet as it may have been, as the high point of 49ers AH (after Harbaugh) … Yes, my grandson, there was a season way back in the olden days where we actually won FIVE games …we had a tall fella named Kaep at qb … It was indeed a heady time in Santa Clara back then …

    1. One day we may look back fondly on “the Meyer era”, though short and sweet as it may have been, as the high point of 49ers AMC (after Monte Clark) … Yes, my grandson, there was a season way back in the olden days where we actually won FIVE games …And now this Walsh character – 2 wins?

      Fixed that for you.

    2. you need to revise who was QB during that Tomsula 5 win juggernaut from 2015– Gabby was responsible for 4 of those wins…

  4. Nope…what cost them the game was a holding penalty when Hoyer threw a TD pass. That and a number of other penalties that helped kill drives. The defense did their part…the offense didn’t, it’s as simple as that. Don’t try to over-analyze, Grant. Mistakes have cost the Niners a real chance to post wins in the last 3 games. Too many penalties, too many dropped passes, too many passes missed, etc.

    1. Yeah, I find these ‘it was THIS PLAY’ that cost us the game kinds of analyses to be completely missing the point.

      Hoyer’s INT lead to 3 points.
      Taylor’s PI (and it was correct) cost us 4 points (TD – FG).
      Multiple bad routes and dropped passes ended drives.
      Multiple stupid penalties ended 49er drives or extended them for the Falcons.

      And, of course, we have the Saleh bashing. What Grant doesn’t seem to know is that we’re #6 in the NFL in yards-surrendered-per-play. #6! With a defense lacking an edge rusher and having question marks at multiple other positions.

      And it’s even tougher on the defense than just ‘lacking parts.’ They have to deal with the fact the offense has been so marginal with Hoyer at QB that the 49ers are 31st in TOP. In fact, TOP has been so bad, so far, that Kelly’s 49ers had more TOP than Shanahan’s 49ers.

      Which means they’re facing a lot of drives. More than they should. And yet they’re keeping us in games despite the offense.

      So while their yards and points aren’t elite, it’s definitely been a massive improvement considering the 49ers, essentially, haven’t really done that much with upgrading the defense. They added Mitchell at NT, but he only replaced Dorsey and isn’t any better. They added Thomas at big end. Foster has been out almost all season. The rest of the players were here.

      But, apparently, people can’t recognize Saleh is doing a **** good job under the circumstances and have to whine like children who only got 95% of what they wanted for Christmas.

        1. I have decided I am holding out on second guessing the coaching until the 49ers get a viable QB. Shanahan does deserve some criticism for handing the keys to Brian Hoyer, who seems completely overwhelmed, and wildly inconsistent. Nobody expect big numbers, and there were questions about Hoyer’s durability …….. but this?

          The easiest way can I put this is that if Kirk Cousins was leading the offense, the 49ers are 3-1, and sitting pretty. I seriously can’t get a whole lot deeper into the 49ers problems when I can’t get past looking at the QB position. Give me CJB? – maybe, or Matt Schaub, or Jacoby Brissett, or Ryan Fitzpatrick, or Chase Daniel, or Brett Hundley, or Joe Webb?, somebody else, almost anybody else.

            1. So… Palmer took significantly more hits and still produced a win. Not buying it. Hoyer is horrible. He doesn’t pull the trigger when his guys are open and misfires on a large percentage of this throws. Drops aside, he still has to accept blame for the Offenses lack of production.

              1. Palmer threw one TD and one INT. Hoyer did the same, except his TD didn’t count because Trent Taylor committed a pass interference penalty.

              2. ” Palmer threw one TD and one INT. Hoyer did the same, except his TD didn’t count because Trent Taylor committed a pass interference penalty. ”

                Your original comment indicated that if Hoyer had a better line, he’d be a more effective QB. Palmer spent way more time on the ground Sunday and yet he produced a solid passing game, moved the chains on a regular basis, converted a hell of a lot better 3rd down % and his one TD came with the game on the line and….. he won the game. He simply came through when it counted. Had Hoyer done the same when he had the exact same opportunity in the red zone at the beginning of OT, we would be talking about the win and not another loss. He simply couldn’t get it done and he had plenty of time in the pocket on that drive. That’s the difference between a good QB and a sub-par QB.

        2. Saleh doing a good job the other 98 percent of the time is irrelevant if he does a bad job in close games late.
          That’s what separates the champion coaches from the “almost” but never wins the big one.
          Harbaugh and his staff in the Super Bowl had the same issues.
          How you can gameplan in real time when it’s on the line is the measure of a great coach.
          Let’s hope they all improve, but between the last SB and a couple of his early tests, Shanahan isn’t there. What worries me is he’s a bit arrogant. Hopefully he can check his ego a bit and progress. If not I predict he’ll fail.

          1. “whine like children who only got 95% of what they wanted for Xmas” not wins, not yards, the reference comparing spoilt brats to the people b***hing about Saleh…get it? Stay with the narrative or go home…

      1. Hooooly Crap. I had no idea the TOP of possession was so bad.

        Avg TOP
        2016 – 26:47
        2017 so far – 26:08

        That’s amazing.

        1. Still bad though and Chip was highly criticized for this.

          Shanahan is a genius! Look, Shanahan is young and learning. He may be a great coach or he may be Norv Turner.

          I don’t know yet as the sample size is small, but the comparisons to BW rebuild and the idea that this team is devoid of talent (considering 60% of roster is brand new – offense 4/11 starters are from last season – only one a skill player and he is the best player on the field – defense has way more players from last year and it is the better performing unit to date) is just specious.

          What this team may be is young and inexperienced and lacking some key players in key areas, but then I would point to draft and FA moves. A lot of it is wait and see but the markers along the road are somewhat troubling to some of us.

          1. Shanahan’s offenses generally have had respectable time of possession numbers while Chip Kelly’s offenses always had dreadful time of possession stats. Thats why you see the disparity in criticism. The Chip Kelly offense low TOP is a direct result of the offensive scheme whereas the 2017 Kyle Shanahan TOP is a direct result of poor QB play coupled with a lot of drops.

            0-4 is certainly troubling but there are definite signs of life. The offensive production under Chip Kelly was much better than it’s been under Kyle Shanahan. Blaine Gabbert was a much better QB than Brian Hoyer. Every QB on the 49er roster last year is better than Brian Hoyer. Through 4 games last year the 49ers lowest point total was 17 points. Under Shanahan, In 3 of the 4 games they’ve played the 49ers scored fewer than 17 points. In 3 of the 4 games under Shanahan the offense has failed to score a TD. Thats really pathetic offense but quite honestly its exactly what I expected from Brian Hoyer. So where is the optimism? If you take out the first game of the past 2 years, the Shanahan 49ers have lost 3 games by a total of 8 points. Under Chip Kelly the 49ers lost 3 games by 45 points. The 49ers defense is much better this year than it was last year. The offensive scheme is a really good scheme that will be successful once the pieces are in place. Brian Hoyer will have a game or 2 where he looks competent followed by a few games where he throws passes to Kyle Shanahan on the sideline instead of hitting a wide open receiver streaking down the field. That’s just who he is and no amount of wishing will change that fact. Hoyer should absolutely be replaced by Beathard on or before the 8th game so the kid can get some experience. If he’s not the answer then the 49ers should use their very high draft pick on a QB if they can’t get one in FA. Until then the first 4 games are an indication of how this entire year will go.

            1. Fair point on CP.

              Remember though…Brian Hoyer was hand picked by Shanahan. If this is who he thought was good enough, does it not at least make you wonder about his decision, especially given the track record?

              To be fair to Hoyer, he was hit on that throw to KS. When he starts hitting trainers….

              Also agree somewhat with Grant that other QBs would struggle with this team. I agree. Still think Hoyer is subpar, but it is a point in his favor. And to be fair Hoyer has played better in the most recent past so what has changed?

              Regarding point differences. Still early in the season. We shall see how it all shakes out. I’m not giving Hoyer a free pass anymore than Kelly or Tomsula.

    2. Have to agree on this one. While I like a lot of Grant’s analytics, in this case there were a lot more errors and penalties committed by players than errors of bad decisions by coaches. A rebuilding team that leads the league in penalties isn’t going to win many games.

      1. I didn’t but I’ve been seeing comments about him. I’d still have taken Adams but can you imagine Lattimore and Peters at the corners? Who needs a great pass rush when nobody is ever open the nose tackle could be your best pass rusher and he’d lead the league in sacks. :)

        If Baalke wasn’t a loser and had taken Peters, how does that shake up the 2016 draft with the two CB’s taken in round 3? Let’s say he passes on Redmond but still takes Robinson. Who do they take at #68?

          1. Way too good of a pick for Baalke, he would have probably taken Kessler if he went QB. But you know I love them taking Prescott. Hard to pass up on Dak but he ended up in the right situation for him and he would have been ruined last year with us.

            I think I would go with Joe Thuney. A player we seriously need right now.

            1. Sorry I completely left off the part about how that opens up not having to trade up for Garnett. In addition to #37 Garnett cost us #105 in the 4th. There was an exchange of a 6th and a 7th so I’ve just ignored those but going with Thuney at #68 returns #37 and #105 to use. At #37 I go with Michael Thomas and at #105 I’d take hmmm maybe this is where we should have taken Dak. Still would have been ruined last year but maybe Shanny could have salvaged him.

              1. C4C

                Dak is yet to be proven…he’s made it on one year because of his Oline and Defense…sorta’ reminds you of Kaep… yeah ?

              2. Billings had a meniscus tear and only started playing this season. He sounds raw and inexperienced with talent and potential.
                .
                At 105, the Niners could have drafted Hasson Ridgeway DT.
                Maybe Miles Killebrew SS, who has 19 tackles, 5 PDef, 1 int.
                Tyler Higbee TE or Pharoh Cooper WR were also available.
                .
                I mocked Nick Kwaitkowski ILB, many times, but Baalke said he did not need to draft an ILB last season.

              3. Dak is yet to be proven…he’s made it on one year because of his Oline and Defense…sorta’ reminds you of Kaep… yeah ?
                —————–
                No, not really. Prescott’s composure in the pocket alone makes him a superior QB but the fact that he’s also already a far more accomplished passer then Kaepernick is/was nails home that there’s really no comparison between the two players just because they were on teams that sort of had similar characteristics.

          2. Players chosen directly after Redmond.-
            Yannick Ngakoue DE
            Bronson Kaufusi DE.
            Darian Thompson S.
            Jonathan Bullard DT.
            Kenyan Drake RB.
            Keivarae Russell CB.
            Shilique Calhoun DE.
            Shon Coleman OT.
            Daryl Worley CB.
            Joe Thuney OG.
            Additional players – Kendall Fuller CB, Braxton Miller WR, Nick Vigil ILB, and Jacoby Brissett QB.

      1. Sure, i’ve told you guys who the best QB prospect was the past two drafts so you’re welcome for that. When Armstead is traded you can thank me for letting you in on that one too. Spoke out against drafting AA in 2015 and had Peters as one of my top corners. I’ve got great forward looking vision, you just have to start paying attention.

        Remind of us all of your amazing prognostications.

        1. Very true C4C. You were 1 of about 4 who said AA was a mistake, myself not included.
          As for Peters you were right again. It appears Baalke was interested in compensating for previous performances by hitting a homerun with an ACL tear in Redmond.
          He simply kept doubling down until he was shown the door.

        2. Remind of us all of your amazing prognostications.

          Alex Smith would get the job done. 13 years later, he’s proven me right. ;)

          Other than some “predictions” of “trades” they may or may not happen in the near or not so near future, what are your amazing prognostications again? Should have picked Dak? Ooooh. Who isn’t saying that these days?

            1. Then apologies are in order to CFC, I genuflect in the general direction of his scouting acumen.

              Too bad the braintrust in 2016 had been reading Seb’s posts and were certain they had all the quarterbacking they’d need for the near future.

        3. You’ve done a pretty good job on your predictions, but you also have some stinkers (assuming I recall correctly). Weren’t you also touting Mettenberger and, for god’s sake, Hackenberg out of Penn State (which I never understood because he is god awful and you usually are in the ball park on a prediction). I too voiced my displeasure vociferously when Armstead was picked but was shouted down on the blog by those who were in ecstasy over the pick.

          BTW: I’m just pointing out your few failures so that you don’t get too big a head :) . Very good call on Prescott, though, which I think few saw because of his off-the-field problems at the time.

              1. Was Hyde cut or traded? Hyde has been the starter from the beginning of camp to right now, even when Williams was healthy.

        4. It’s too soon to declare victory on Mahomes and Prescott.

          Mahomes hasn’t played yet and Watson is looking decent. We’ll see about Trubisky.

          Dak was certainly the best last year, but that’s only one year.
          2017 stats.
          Jared Goff – 78/117 (66.7%), 1,072 YDs, 7 TDs, 1 INT, 9.2 Y/A, 112.2 rating.

          Dak Prescott – 87/143 (60.8%), 941 YDs, 8 TDs, 3 INTs, 6.6 Y/A, 90.1 rating.

          Carson Wentz – 89/147 (60.5%), 1,058 YDs, 6 TDs, 2 INTs, 7.2 Y/A, 90.5 rating.

          The jury is still out.

          1. Any of those guys are doing better than Hoyer; but, would they do better than Hoyer if they had to run Shanahan’s system? I’m thinking back to Ryan and how awful he was the first year he had to run Shanahan’s system.

  5. Game management could be an ongoing issue for the 49ers’ inexperienced coaching staff this season, although head coach Kyle Shanahan did not question his game management at his Monday news conference.

    Not sold on Shanahan and sorry john and jed dorks but hes no Harbaugh. There was no excuse losing to NE in the last minutes of the super bowl and stubborn Shanahan did not back down for the good of the team. I was afraid of this, now happening in SF. Listen to what Atlanta QB Ryan said later about the end of the game. Interview with Pete Prisco

    So what happened?

    Shanahan got greedy, probably caught up in his battle with Bill Belichick, the greatest coach of all time. Quinn didn’t veto the calls — something he said he will learn from — and Ryan had no chance to change the plays.

    Ryans quote
    “Kyle’s play calls — he would take time to get stuff in,” Ryan said. “As I was getting it, you’re looking at the clock and you’re talking 16 seconds before it cuts out. You don’t have a lot of time to say, ‘There’s 16 seconds, no, no, no, we’re not going to do that. Hey, guys, we’re going to line up and run this.’ You’re talking about breaking the huddle at seven seconds if you do something along the lines.

    “With the way Kyle’s system was set up, he took more time to call plays and we shift and motion a lot more than we did with (former coordinator) Dirk (Koetter). You couldn’t get out of stuff like that. We talk about being the most aggressive team in football. And I’m all for it. But there’s also winning time. You’re not being aggressive not running it there.”

    What did Dan Quinn say about the SB ending..? Learning experience.

    A Tigers stripes don’t change from Tiger to Zebra.. sorry..

  6. KS wants to reduce the unforced errors.
    .
    How does one accomplish that goal? By being prepared. By instilling discipline. By getting the players to play under control, not play wild.
    .
    Maybe hiring an OC might be a good first step.

    1. I agree.
      He should demote his assistant head coach/RB coach to OC/RB coach.
      Then tell him that he (KS) will still be calling the plays.
      It’s very important to look like your doing to the fans.

      1. Jon Embree is the only one listed as the Assistant Head Coach.
        .
        Robert Turner Jr. is the RB coach.
        .
        They should promote Bobby Turner to be the OC, and hire back Tom Rathman as the RB coach.
        .
        The Niners should let BT call plays from the booth, and relay them down to KS, who can change or amend the play.
        .
        ‘It is very important to look like you’re doing (it) to the fans’.
        .
        Maybe- It is very important to look like you are doing it FOR the fans. That would show that you are trying hard to win, and it might help reduce some of the unforced errors.
        .
        KS is 0-4, and needs all the help he can get. He is proving that he cannot do it all.He would be delegating authority, as any good HC should do, and they may prove to be wise decisions.

    1. Yeah, playing the best ball of his career. He’s a free agent after this season. Hmmmmm?

      ETA: So weird seeing him and Vernon Davis making big plays. On opposite sides of the field.

          1. I think his contract is up…….definitely playing at the highest level

            They did say he needed 3-4 years to be comfortable in a system…..

  7. Funny how these things work out:

    While Tennessee WR Corey Davis and Cincinnati WR John Ross (both first-rounders) were inactive and second-round WR Zay Jones continues to struggle despite having a bunch of early opportunities in Buffalo, three rookies are starting to stand out.

    It goes on, then it rounds up other significant rookie receivers:

    Trent Taylor, San Francisco (YTD stats: 11 rec., 93 yards, 1 TD, 19 targets, 93 routes): While Kupp has had the best season, Taylor is emerging as a player in San Francisco. He was targeted a rookie-high 10 times this week against Arizona, catching five passes for 47 yards.

    Of all rookie pass-catchers (WRs, TEs & RBs) Taylor ranks 11th in the NFL with 93 yards on 11 receptions. Of all rookie WRs (just WRs) he ranks #4. So while I think it’s undeniable that he’s got a ways to go, the early returns are at least positive.

    Kittle, BTW, comes in #14. He’d probably do better if he had a QB who wasn’t afraid of the middle of the field.

    1. wish TT did better than 5 for 10 sunday….and the QB being able to see the middle of field might help, when his interior line is doin’ the “hey lookout” block technique..otherwise known as the “parting seas” pocket collapse…

  8. The offense and Hoyer lost the game.

    After Hoyer got hurt and was taken out of the game for 1 play, he never recovered. His passes were off target and he seems to rush things. At that point, Shanahan should have benched him. Hoyer’s ineffectiveness cost the 49ers the game.

  9. Since we are doing a lot of what if scenarios, looks like the Niners had their future QB in last years draft and passed on him.

    Some people are saying Deshaun Watson has only a small sample size so far in the NFL. I completely disagree.

    First off he had a 38 game sample size at Clemson. Nick Saban said he was the toughest player to defend against. Even with all the game planning the “defensive genius” Saban still couldn’t contain Watson (and Alabama’s defense consisted of high draft pick pros, including our own Rueben Foster). Alabama and the NCAA had no answer in stopping Watson. His own coach said if you don’t pick Watson you will be missing out on Michael Jordan.

    Yes, sometimes you have to believe your own eyes when you watch the tape on Watson.

    The NFL season is already 25% over and Watson has improved in every game. He even leads all NFL QB’s in rushing.
    Deshaun Watson reminds me of Steve Young. A great leader, high character, a winner at every level he has been at.
    These traits have to be considered when drafting a QB.

    I have no idea why 11 teams, including the Niner’s, passed on Watson.

    Grant, let’s set up a poll right now. Who would you rather have on the Niners roster as of today:
    A.) Brian Hoyer
    B.) Solomon Thomas
    C.) Deshaun Watson

    1. I really like Watson. Everything he’s shown so far leads me to believe he will be a very good pro. BUT i’m not ready to anoint the kid just yet. He has real issues in his mechanics and accuracy that scared teams off in the draft. He must improve these areas for consistent success in the NFL. He tends to get off balance and make throws he shouldn’t make which lead to interceptions. Even when his mechanics and footwork are good he will have several easy throws a game which are off the mark. There is certainly a lot to love about Deshaun Watson but there’s also a lot of improvement needed. Good news for the Texans is that Watson seems to be the kind of high character kid who will put in the necessary work to improve. Doesn’t seem like the kind of kid who will be shooting videos for Beats or living the life in Miami all offseason.

    2. Two weeks ago everyone was talking up Kizer while Watson, with his sub-70 QB rating was being ignored. Kizer flopped miserably since then and has a worse QB rating than Hoyer.

      Watson has had one good game (Patriots, with the absolute worst pass defense in the NFL) had one spectacular game against the Titans (who are almost as bad as the Patriots) which pumped his rating to mid-pack. But if you think he’s going to continue to hit 75% of his passes when he plays good defenses… I have this bridge and for the low-low price of Eleventy-Million dollars, it could be yours!

      They’re going against Kansas City this week. The Chiefs have a pretty good defense (#6 passing) even though they lost Eric Berry. Let’s see how he does against them, and the other quality pass defenses he’ll be facing (with more and more tape on him) before we make grandiose predictions of future success and anoint him a future HOFer.

      As for me, I’d rather have Thomas. With 5 TFLs he’s tied for 8th in the NFL in that stat while leading the 49ers in TFL with Ray Ray coming in a distant second with 2. He’s also shown a great motor, great pursuit and when they rushed him inside, he did a good job. Sure, he still needs work, but all rookies do. And he’s already the best run defender on the team even though, on occasion, he’ll get fooled.

      And if I got my ‘perfect’ draft I’d have rater been able to trade down and take Trubisky at #8, but the Bears made that pipe dream a lark then take TJ Watt at the top of Round 2. Trubisky will be starting this weekend. Watt has 13 tackles (2 TFL), 2 sacks, 3 PDs and an INT (in 3 games as ESPN hasn’t updated their stats for this weekend) for the Steelers and has outplayed every linebacker we have with only Foster being in his league.

      As for Watson, he’s got a Shaun Hill arm, but I’m sure he’ll be fine completing all those dink-and-dunks. And he’ll run around on those skinny legs, like RGIII, until someone blows out his knee. But I’m just not convinced he has what it takes to be more than a flash-in-the-pan run-around-guy like RGIII, Kaepernick, Brooks, Blake, etc.

    3. D.) Colin Kaepernick.
      .
      Watson is looking good because he is such an upgrade from Hoyer, who flamed out in his only playoff game with the Texans, and Savage, who has a cool name but timid play.
      .
      Watson is benefiting from a stout O line, good RBs, fast receivers and a stout defense. Kinda like Dak last season. Watson’s mobility is helpful, but his leadership is impressive. He looks like the QB who played in 2 national college championships, with heightened play for big games.
      .
      I want Kaep, because I want the Niners to win a damn game.

      1. Seb sez :

        “I want Kaep, because I want the Niners to win a damn game.”

        A wise man once said …..

        ” …. Wish in one hand …..”

        (and you should know the rest !)

      2. 1-10 as he played ‘poor man’s Alex Smith’ for 11 games last year. So I guess we’d get ONE win out of him for the year.

        I’d like more than 1 win.

        1. Some want the Niners to tank, just to get the number one pick. If KS sticks with Hoyer, I think that they are content to lose.
          .
          Do not worry, with the improved defense, the Niners are at least competitive, and with more competent QB play, they can go from competitive to winning. Lynch did sign battle hardened and battle tested FAs, and their number 3 overall draft choice just got a sack. With improved support, Kaep could become a dual threat that stresses the defense.
          .
          Last season, Baalke signed Beadles, as his only FA acquisition. This season, Lynch signed 30. Even with all the penalties and unforced errors, the coaching staff is vastly improved.
          .
          The whole team and organization has improved just because Baalke is gone. This team is poised to win more than one game.
          .
          If only they improve the QB position. Defend Hoyer all you want. I feel sorry for the guy. Bouncing around from team to team, who always finds a superior QB. Hoyer is a great person. Sounds like a real family guy, and is an asset to the community. He does have talent, and is perfect in practice, but on the field during the game, something is slightly out of kilter.
          .
          Posters should go back with the magic of replay, and watch the end of this play. Taylor has 2 steps behind TM, and Hoyer throws the ball to KS. The disgusted look on his face as he spikes the ball, could spell out a whole chapter, and is worth a thousand words.

          1. Comments like this send show you have good football knowledge, for the life of me I just do not understand how you do not see kaps limitations and short comings, I am sure his parents appreciate it,I believe map would do terrible in this system, but that’s me.

        2. Put Hoyer on last year’s team and he’d have a hard time winning 1 game. Kaepernick performance last year was heavily influenced (negatively) by the lack of talent and coaching incompetence.

    1. so what we’ve seen during the 1 qtr of season might lead one to think of the changes for 2018….

      — Garnett traded for player/picks, likewise with AA- possibly…
      — Kilgore as depth,
      — Fusco+Beadles gone, or depth at most
      — much $$ and trade stock spent to buy new free agent starting C + OG’s
      — draft capital spent on: OL talent — C/G – these rooks, along with Williams, are the 2020 guys- depending how the camp battles go when Staley hangs it up and how the vet free agents do against them
      — more draft cap spent on WR/ILB/S/CB- free agent capital spent on ILB or CB
      — Beathard starting, having had valuable live rounds training in 2017– after Hoyer’s pulled in near future
      — new interior OL give Hyde (if he’s ambulatory) and the speedsters a chance to start gashing D’s
      — play action becomes valid for CJ
      — Kittle and Garcon get to be CJ’s top targets (Duh)- gotta make sure we stay south of Garcon’s expiration date
      — some luck with WR’s not named Goodwin or Robinson- maybe Bolden jr? 2018 rooks?

      (2020 9ers O : CJ, Hyde/Breida/Washington/Mostert, Kittle, Juzc…, Hikutini??, Bolden Jr.??, Garcon still upright? )

      1. I would add that Juice will be more involved in the passing game if the OL is better, so he wouldn’t have to pass block as much.

        1. only if the 1st 4 items go smoothly, successful one season OL rebuild needed for putting FB into more pass routes vs. protect snaps

  10. 49ers come in at #10 with PFF.

    PFF Elite pass blocking efficiency: 80.5

    The play of RT Trent Brown in particular has been a revelation for the 49ers so far this season. As a unit this line has surrendered four sacks and 41 total pressures pass blocking for 163 snaps, but Brown is the league’s fourth-ranked tackle with an overall PFF grade of 85.7.

    Doesn’t hurt that Hoyer can anticipate most blitzes, properly move in the pocket and gets rid of the ball when he smells trouble. It’s funny how a QB change can make such a difference, because (in reality) this interior group is, at best, only a marginal upgrade from last year’s interior group.

    This is why I’ve so strongly criticized PFFs system. They just don’t account for the pocket skills and flaws of the QBs. Kaepernick and Gabbert were ball holders with bad pocket skills. Hence, a lot of unnecessary sacks and finger pointing at the line.

    OTOH, Hoyer is making the line, the interior at least, look better. Which, in turn, elevates the score.

    1. Worse, they even see it. Yet don’t adjust for it:

      30. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS
      PFF Elite pass blocking efficiency: 69.7

      At times there is no worse line in the league than Seattle’s, but they come in at No. 30 so far in pass blocking efficiency, having surrendered 65 total pressures, the third-most in the league. Russell Wilson has sped up his average time to throw, but still ranks the fifth-slowest in the league, putting added pressure on this unit.

      The Seahawk line is better than their ranking. But Wilson is a ball-holder. Makes his line look worse than it is. But PFF only points the finger at the line when it comes to ratings.

    2. This seems off.
      Hoyer has been getting rid of the ball very quickly which leads to far fewer pressures. Im guessing this is used in the grading system.
      In the first game Hoyer got rid of the ball in 2.2 seconds normally, every time he didnt he was sacked. That’s pathetic, considering you expect the line to give you at least 3 seconds to throw.

      1. It’s not though. That’s the problem. All through 2014/2015 when people were pointing the finger at the line, the fact was that at every time-split kept by PFF the 49ers line was no worse than average in surrendering pressure or sacks.

        Kaepernick was sacked 20% of the time he held the ball for 3.5 seconds (NFL average is just over 21% with a low of 17% (Green Bay & Rogers who is very smart about it) and a high of 25% (Jaguars & Bortles)). So was Peyton Manning. The difference is Kapernick held the ball for 3.5 seconds on 40% of his passes. Manning did at less than 10%.

        The Bronco’s got accolades and pro-bowlers like Beadles (we know how that turned out for the Jags and Niners) and the 49ers got ripped in the press and by the fans. And, of course, we have Brady who makes his scrub linemen into pro-bowlers. Linemen that later go to other teams and (mostly) fail as high priced FAs and most everybody wonders why…

        To evaluate properly, you need to use time-splits and compare the units at sacks/pressures vs a standard (NFL averages) for the time split. They just count their numbers and move on without adjusting for what the QB has contributed to the sack totals.

        1. Maybe Kaep held onto the ball so long because his receivers were not open. With the worst ranked WRs in the league, that may be a salient factor.

    1. It’s worth recapping the 49er 2017 draft for fans that are frustrated with the offense.

      Remember the 1st 3 players drafted with their top picks were on the defensive side of the ball.

      2018 will be an offensive draft.

      1. and the reason the 2017 had such a strong defensive emphasis in the early rounds was because the free agency signings were so heavy on offense, bringing in players at each position who had experience in Shanahan’s system. had to balance out the additions and look to the defense in the draft.

  11. I can’t believe people are wishing for Kaep. He would be terrible in this offense. He demonstrated no accuracy, no ability to read defenses, and he had no experience in a real pro offense. So maybe by being a running back he could have gotten us a win somewhere along the way. What a colossal bore that would be. If I want to see improvised football, I’ll watch the vastly superior Russel Wilson. This team needs to run this offense with someone who understands it. Hoyer does, but he’s bad. So what. This year is not for winning, and Kaep, though I admire his politics, would have held the offense back.

    1. ‘Hoyer does, but he is bad. So what.’ So you are content to lose.
      .
      Kaep did run a real pro offense when he ran JH’s offense right into the SB. Kaep has proven he can take a team to the Super Bowl. Hoyer threw the ball like the defenders were the intended receivers, for 4 picks and a fumble in his only playoff loss. Hoyer is pulling a Gabbert, and is holding the offense back.
      .
      Imho, Kaep gives them the best chance to win, and even if I am wrong, posters will be happy the Niners lost because of a better draft position.

      1. ok Seb…KS’ offensive staff does read your posts, at the beginning of every O staff meet after each game…the howling must annoy the defense staff mtgs. — very disruptive…

        1. Hopefully they have better things to do, like figuring out ways to stop committing penalties. Has there yet been a game without a false start penalty?

      2. No he didn’t. He ran a simplified read-option offense coupled with his street-ball BS. In short, college crap. In 2014 they tried to transition him to running a real Pro Offense . From mid-season 2014 till the end his QB rating in the pocket-offense was 76.9.

        In 2015 they tried to run a simplified pro-offense with more zero/one-read plays. It didn’t work and he got benched after posting a 78.5 QB rating.

        In 2016 he went back to a college-crap offense and really didn’t beat Gabbert. Rather Gabbert literally failed his way out of the starting job. But Kaepernick showed all the same flaws and only Kelly’s extreme low-risk, not terribly effective college offense pumped his rating back up to 90.7, But before you act that was some some kind of quality QB resurgence:

        2013: Nike Foles — 119.2
        2014: Mark Sanchez — 88.4

        Kelly’s offense, by it’s design, is incredibly risk-adverse and designed to generate a high completion rate at short distances to move the chains. And in that offense Kaepernick posted an INT rate at about half of his career INT rate. Which was the real driver of his ‘success’ as all the rest of his numbers were in-line with the 2014/2015 garbage he threw.

        There’s a reason why scrubs like Sanchez and Foles had career years, statistically, under Kelly while remaining actual scrubs. Kaepernick was no different. And the NFL knows it even though people like pretend otherwise.

  12. Niners should poach an O lineman from a playoff bound team’s practice squad.
    .
    At 0-4, they should be desperate enough to do that.
    .
    Maybe they should target another team who has a guard that is talented, but struggling, and swap players. Maybe both will benefit from a new beginning.

  13. In the words of Bill Bilechick; “We are focusing on our next opponent” when questioned about a recent loss.
    Grant, get over it dude. We can’t cry over spilled milk. I’m sure that Shanahan and his brain-trust is focusing on the Colts.

  14. The country is going through what we went through with Kap.

    He starts with a bang…….but does not know how to close out.

    Started big for the niners…….then lost the team
    Started big for the injustice cause………now the movement has no direction

  15. Ok I’m dropping resistance. Let’s officially declare the 9ers a full-blown $hitshow, and bring on the Kaep-meister! In your far ring, the tigers. In your middle ring Kaep. Up in the booth we have the clown in the Owners suite. It’s Barnum & Bailey the minute Kaep enters the tent.

    Who doesn’t like the Circus. C’mon man its the Circus!

    1. to be fully honest in an appraisal one must evaluate when these pressures, hits, sacks, etc. occur. for example, how many occur on 3rd downs when the Niners are facing a must convert play to extend a drive? to be honest, most of the pressures occur when the defense knows you are in a must pass situation. if the run game is effective on 1st down and 2nd and medium to short, you are going to have fewer pressures and hits on those downs because the defense is thinking run first. therefore, an overall statement as made by this ESPN analysis still is faulty, although they consider it to be an expert analysis. give me a down and distance analysis as well as game score and quarter and clock time remaining if you want to know the real story!!!!!

  16. Moses and Oneniner, you are both correct. As a long time baseball/softball coach, the one thing that you learn immediately is that statistics are deceiving. They are only a limited tool. The ONLY statistic that really matters in any sport is wins and loses. Also important is what the athlete can do NOW, not what they did in s short period, four or five years ago. This is the essence of Seb’s argument for Kaep. He only references his play in 2012-13 and completely disregards his horrific play in the years that followed, especially the last two, where in 19 starts he’s won 3 times, two of which were against the then lowly Rams. He’s not very good for all the obvious reasons that have been discussed by just about every analyst, GM, and coach. He’s unemployed because he is not very good, period. They would still be 0-4 with him at QB, only the games would have been much more lopsided, not in the Niners favor. Hoyer, although also limited, is way better than Kaep and has kept the games close. KS made the right decision in passing on Kaep. The rest of the league has followed.

    Of course, if you tell the truth about Kaep, your a hater. Meh……….

    1. Juan, you are not looking at the whole picture. This league has demonstrated that with the proper support, even mediocre QBs can win games. With absolutely no support, No QB would succeed.
      .
      Debate the relative strengths and weaknesses of Kaep, but if you look at how Baalke dismantled a SB team, then sat on his hands and did nothing to improve it, the losses fall mainly in Baalke’s lap. Thank goodness he was kicked into the gutter.
      .
      The truth? That must be a foreign concept to you. You are so blinded with hate, you blame Kaep for not preventing third string RBs from galloping for 200 yards. Get real.

      1. This league has demonstrated that with the proper support, even mediocre QBs can win games. With absolutely no support, No QB would succeed.

        And that is why Kap had some success. He’s mediocre.

        1. Kaep stormed into the SB with good support. A mediocre QB would not have done that. A mediocre QB could win some games, but probably flame out in the first round of the playoffs. Like Dalton.

    2. put me in the category of “haters” who can’t stand mediocre or terrible QB’s (Hoyer, Kap, shaun hill, …etc)……..

  17. Kaepernick is completely done in the NFL. Thought as starters went down he’d have a chance to play again this season but the Titans, whom would have been the perfect team for him, deciding to go with Weeden is the final nail in the coffin so to speak. Weeden is dreadful, Kaepernick as bad as he is is still a thousand times better of a choice then Weeden. Clearly a consensus among the owners was reached that he’s not getting back into the league.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULkuwxJTGtY

    1. If Mariota’s hamstring injury were season-ending, I think the Titans would sign Kaepernick. But Mariota is day to day.

            1. when it comes to signing Kap, the only teams that might possibly withstand the political backlash of Kap getting back into NFL are the west coast teams…and maybe N.O.

              the league owners are doing the CYA thing due to their bottom $ line, not any implied rejection of a political stance– tho’ some owners might feel that way– BUT they’d NEVER let that get in the way of maximizing the $$ potential of the businesses…EVEN IF signing Kap would actually help the team’s win % …can’t mess with the NFL shield cash cow, no matter how poorly the team you own is doing this season.

            1. Like I said, with the way things shook out in Vegas, the biggest loser in this will be Kaepernick for not signing with a team earlier (even if Canada).

      1. Jed seems to cling to his emo tantrums, and will not grow up, so the possibility of Kaep returning is not likely.
        .
        Looking at the league, the most probable place for Kaep to go may be the Jaguars. They are not happy about Bortles, and with better QB play, they could win their division.
        Making the playoffs seems remote with Bortles, and I think enough players are sick of losing, they may over ride the objections of the coaches and Coughlin.
        .
        Another team who might want a QB upgrade since their starter went down are the Raiders. Manuel may not be the answer, and maybe it might turn out to be another Jim Plunkett situation. Former Niner QB goes across the bay and leads the Raiders to a SB win. Still detest the Raiders, but that scenario would be poetic justice, and a kick in the teeth to Jed.
        .
        2 other teams who may have struggling rookie QBs, are the Bears and Browns. Do not know if Kaep would want to go to another team with little talent.
        .
        Finally, my longshot team is Denver. Siemian is not lighting up the league, and John Elway wants to win another SB. Kaep may be an upgrade at QB, and he would have the proper support. Good RB, fast receivers and stout defense.

        1. Do not know if Kaep would want to go to another team with little talent.

          LOL. Kaep is not the one calling the shots here, Seb. Bears and Browns have infinitely more talent than what he’s playing with now – unlikely that they do, but if they call he’d jump.

          1. No, Kaep is being patient, and waiting for the right opportunity. He will not want to go to the Browns because Haslam is a worse owner than Jed.
            .
            Kaep probably could have gone to several teams if he wanted to be a backup and play for the league minimum. However, Kaep wants to start, and receive a starter’s salary.

    2. How about the Raiders? They always go against owners consensus. He could keep them afloat until Carr returns to health. But leading them to the SB? Seb, quit dreaming.

      1. With KC and Denver ahead of them, the Raiders may be struggling to get a wild card.
        .
        They would have little chance with Kaep. and NO chance without Carr.

    1. Not sure if he will want to coach. But he definitely should have some position in the front office as a personnel/talent evaluator.

      Speaking if players’ career after playing days are over, I had heard someone mention on the air (maybe Tim Ryan) a year ago that Peyton Manning would be a GM in 5 years or so. Now it appears that it will happen earlier.

  18. Who will Alex Smith be playing for next season?

    MIA
    JAX
    ARI
    KC – If they win the SuperBowl
    BUF
    MIN
    LAC – they need a fresh face at QB

    I could definitely see Alex ending up on one of the Florida teams. Arizona is a real possibility as well. If the Chiefs win the SuperBowl they’ll keep him around for his final year on his contract.

      1. KC doesn’t have to win the SB for Alex to be a free agent suitor magnet..even if he just did well in AFC champ. and KC lost in a close match, Alex’ll have quite a few offers:

        — he’s “offensive system flexible” due to lot’s of OC’s & systems over the years, but has been grounded in a stable WCO variant for a few seasons now, and has done OK to good,
        — he can probably be an upgrade for over a dozen teams currently, working in their systems,
        — and he knows IF KC gets to champ., or even SB, KC’ll want him one more season, which would be the season he hands the keys to Mahomes– he may not want to see that placeholder movie again,

        I could see MIN wanting him as insurance for Teddy, since the Bradford policy is expiring,
        also Jerry Jones could throw decent$$ at him for Dak insurance,
        how about the big $$ offer from the J-E-T-S?
        and…of course if Palmer hangs it up.

  19. Kaep sits at home because of his pig socks, not lack of talent. Someone brought up Sanchez and Foles, but if I’m not mistaken they had Maclin at Wr and Shady at Rb. Kaep posted more than decent numbers last year with no weapons, oline, or rb. Also was in his 3rd off scheme in 3 years…….as referenced above with Alex Smith, takes a couple years at least to grasp a system. Kaep is 28, and finally fully healthy…….if KS couldn’t teach his system to Kaep, is he really the off genius that’s been portrayed?

  20. We lost that game due to the penalties , at very inopportune times . Not the coaching , thought he called a good game. Hoyer did alot of dink a dunk , is afraid to throw ball over the middle , and not to good at long ball either . Offensive line ( even though better than first 2 games) needs major improvement’s ( lg , c ,rg ) don’t think there is anyone that is football knowledgeable would argue .

    Defense has improved from last year , even to date .

    Special teams is doing well . Promising return’s , that unit played well every game , IMO.

    Coaching , new offense , let’s some it up in only one word .

    Penalties . I see this 2 ways , points lost , points taken. Think how many TDS, we should really have by now , drops , penalties , combined . An easy five , . An easy assessment , How many games would of changed the outcome . Hint ( we lost by an avg of what 3 points ) in 4 games . IMHO ,that’s an improvement from last year, but how come our corners are stinking up the place .

    Look who made the penalties ?
    Thinking you have to see ,who wants the ball .

    Could very well be ,3 and 1

    Grant disagree with you on this one 2 , penalties is my final thoughts .

  21. Kaep put up decent numbers last year? The only number that Kaep put up last year that matters is 2-14. Period. He stinks. Lol! What a joke!

  22. Last 19 starts. 3-16. Yea, those are decent numbers. It’s such a head scratcher why he hasn’t been signed! Jeesh!

  23. Its normal for me to forget things,…….. I can’t even recall how much Rattay sucked,…..but I can NEVER forget how #7 aka Kap sucked so badly……

    1. He sucked so badly, he led the Niners to their first SB in 18 years, and was one pass from returning.
      .
      Everyone else sucked, including Hoyer.

  24. KS is a good offensive strategist and someday may prove to be great. He’s also smart enough to know and adhere to the old saying, “You can put lipstick on a pig, but it’s still a pig”. He is quite aware that Kaep does not have near the talent to run his offense. That’s not being lazy, that’s being smart. Too bad JH didn’t have those same smarts. His laziness cost the Niners a SB. Alex would have hoisted the SB trophy, no doubt.

    1. No doubt? If only he could get to a SB, but Alex has never done that.
      .
      JH is so lazy, he got to 3 NFCC games in a row, something all the other non lazy HC’s have never done.

    2. KS is so lazy, he does not want to even bother to coach a player with a different skillset than Hoyer. Considering Hoyer’s skillsets are inferior to Kaep’s maybe KS is not only lazy, but afraid to try.

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