49ers’ rookies made big impact in 2017

San Francisco 49ers defensive end Solomon Thomas (94) celebrates with defensive back Adrian Colbert (38) and cornerback Dontae Johnson (36) during the first half of an NFL football game against the Jacksonville Jaguars in Santa Clara, Calif., Sunday, Dec. 24, 2017. (AP Photo/Marcio Jose Sanchez)

SANTA CLARA — The main characters of the 49ers’ dramatic, historic turnaround were mostly rookies.

Twelve rookie draft picks, seven undrafted rookie free agents and one sort-of-kind-of rookie quarterback, Jimmy Garoppolo. Garoppolo isn’t an actual rookie — he has been in the NFL four seasons. But, he has started only seven games. He has less game experience than many of the real rookies on the 49ers.

“Obviously Jimmy came in and was fabulous,” 49ers general manager John Lynch said in the 49ers auditorium Tuesday afternoon. “He was great for us and he made people around him better. I think that’s the mark of a player who has an opportunity to be special — do you make people around you better? He did that.

“There was also a confluence of a bunch of young guys that were improving. Around that same time, a couple things happened. We got healthy after enduring a lot of tough injuries, and the experience level of some of these players and the confidence level started to kick in.”

By the end of the season, the 49ers were one of the hottest teams in the NFL — they won six of their final seven games. And they had 15 rookies on their 53-man roster, plus three more rookies on IR.

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  1. This is the best Niners rookie class in (three?) decades. Shanalynch will be very careful in adding FAs. This young team has bonded very well (‘they are tight’ as Shanny puts it), and I think that they will not want to upset the chemistry by adding potential divas/malcontents in FA, despite need.

  2. The performance of the rookies was definitely one of the most pleasing things of this season. Foster looked like he could be an elite level talent so long as he stays healthy, and there were a number of guys that looked like they will be solid starters and/ or key role players moving forward (Thomas, Witherspoon, Kittle, Taylor, Colbert, Breida). Plus a guy that looked like he could be a reliable backup QB in Beathard.

    What else was pleasing was seeing a number of the FA acquisitions play well too. Garcon and Goodwin both looked good. Williams was really good as the NCB, especially the back end of the year. Mitchell was decent as the 1T. Juice was a reliable blocker and came on as a receiver at the back end of the year. Dumervil wasn’t great but was still the team’s best edge rusher. Coyle was a decent backup LB capable of handling starting duties when needed. Day and Marsh were good waiver wire additions. And of course there was one very good trade pick up at QB. :-)

    If they can have another draft like that this year as well as adding a couple more good FAs then the rebuild may well and truly be accomplished much sooner than I thought it would be.

  3. The rookies played a lot and contributed on a bad team. However, I’m not going to get over excited about them as I’m not sure how many of them would play on a team with a decent roster.
    Ahkelo showed promise(and I believe he will develop into a decent db), but being the best cb on a team with terrible cb’s doesn’t mean he is good.
    So far this draft looks like it has several players that could be solid contributors but only Foster looks like a potential difference maker. And with his injury history he is a big if… he will make or break this class.

    1. > but only Foster looks like a potential difference maker.

      I am curious about your definition of the phrase “difference maker”. While Foster is a tremendous LB, that position, by definition, is not a “difference-making” position, IMO.

      In fact, even in the run game in 4-3 base, I’d say that the D line is more of a “difference maker”. Without superior DLine play, the LBs would be racking up large number of tackles, but 4-5 yards down from LoS.

      In pass D, the “difference makers” would be a Leo rusher (currently missing) and a “shutdown” corner who takes away half of a field. If Spoon continues to improve at the rate he has done in his rookie year (and his work ethic and athleticism shows great promise), he may one day become a difference maker like Lattimore is currently. Not a given.

      Foster, like Jimmy G, brings a great deal of positive exuberance on the field that elevates the play of his teammates. If he adds other leadership qualities, then he would transcend his position. For this past season, I’d say that Thomas (not by himself, but as a part of the run D package) was more of a “difference maker” although Foster may have made more splash plays. I also don’t think that Foster’s success “will make or break this class”. This class has shown tremendous potential even without Foster.

      1. Difference makers to me are pro-bowlers or borderline ones.
        Perhaps we feel a bit differently about linebackers. While I concede that I don’t think they are “as” important as some other positions, I believe that great players are difference makers regardless of position.
        For example, Bowman and Willis were absolute difference makers on our team. Their range and instincts made it much tougher on opponents as they had to march down the entire field earning every yard. Those 2 could save ends who lost contain, they closed holes in zone defenses very quickly and made secure tackles, keeping short catches to short gains.
        As to shutdown corners that take away the field… I agree but I have seen 2 in my lifetime. The term shutdown corner is completely overused. Their isn’t a corner in the NFL that will keep Atlanta from throwing to Julio Jones or Pittsburg from throwing to Brown. A top corner is still more valuable than a LB but we also need to understand that true shutdown corners are basically unicorns.

    2. I think you’re selling them short.

      Witherspoon, target per target, played as well as about every Rookie CB drafted in front of him. And that’s saying a lot because this past draft’s CB class has really performed at much higher level than usual. I can’t help but think that if Johnson wasn’t such a bad CB and getting targeted so much (yeah, he lead the team in tackles for a reason) Witherspoon would have had better stats because the targeting load would have been more equal instead so heavy to Johnson.

      Kittle was 9th in receptions (and receiving yards) of all rookies, regardless of position. After struggling early with drops and injuries, he showed just what he could do the last few games of the season. It was high-quality work and he ended up #17 in FO’s Defense-adjusted Value over Average (DVOA) ranking of all TEs.

      Taylor was 8th in receptions (10th in receiving yards) in the NFL of all rookies, regardless of position. He struggled early with the NFL game, like most rookies (especially those on offense) do, yet came on strong in the last third of the season where he caught 17/ 20 targets (85%) with no drops once he got a QB who could get the ball in his catch-radius. In the end, Taylor ranked 23rd in FO’s DVOA (defense-adjusted value over average) for WRs which was the highest on the team, exceeding both Goodwin and Garcon.

      Thomas was the top run defender on the team and until he got hurt and missed time and then played with only one really healthy leg, he was Top-10 in the NFL in TFLs while finishing tied for 41st by season’s end (TFLs regardless of position). As a pass-rusher, he was 7th in sacks for a rookie (regardless of position). In pressures, Thomas was average for his position and helped improve the the 49ers pass rush which, while poor in sacks, finished 16th in pressure (average) .

      Colbert was drafted as a CB and special teamer. He was a dedicated STer the first 5 weeks logging just 1 snap on defense. In Week 6 he got his first significant action as a nickle back. In week 9 he was fully converted into a starting safety and missed a game-and-a-half with a broken thumb. So in his 5.5 games, he had 5 PDs (two which were highly interceptable but for the cast on his hand), 2 FF and demonstrated side-line-to-side-line range and a solid feel for the FS position, far better than any FS we’ve had in a very long time.

      So I don’t see it your way. This defense has:

      Two quality D-Line: Buckner & Thomas
      One quality LB: Foster
      Three quality safeties: Reid, Tartt & Colbert
      One quality CB: Witherspoon.

      Four of whom are rookies.

      On offense, two of the four best performing (relative to position) skill position players of offense (Kittle, Celek, Goodwin & Taylor) were rookies. And they played well on the team and relative to the fully vested NFL counterparts.

      And, yes, Celek had a good year. While he remains a limited threat, he was a very good target in the middle of the field and come up money, more times than not, in critical situations (Celek time!). Goodwin, of course, needs no additional props from me.

      And with that said, think about where they’d be (statistically) if they didn’t have the dead-weight of Hoyer then a rookie QB who was, clearly, not ready for the NFL.

      1. Maybe, but the only one that appears special and jumped off the screen to me was Foster. The others all look like they might be ok starters but don’t look special either… but to be fair, the niners need those as well.
        At the moment I’m not jumping for joy saying this class is great because I remember how excited we were after the 2011 draft which landed Aldon Smith, Colin K, Chris Culliver, Kendall Hunter, Daniel Kilgore, Bruce Miller, and picked up Ian Williams.

        Thomas – He’s a good run defender who hasn’t shown up as a pass rusher.
        And while you can point to the fact that he was a 4 time pepsi of the week nominee…
        It must be noted that in those games, he saw the opponents starting LT for a grand total of 10 plays. SEA, AZ, and Wash all had their starting left tackle out. While Jacksonville had their starting LT for a total of 10 plays. Good players should actually have good games against starters.
        He has time to turn it around and I think he will be a slightly above average starter some day but right now he is a run defending DE. Those can be had after round 3.
        Foster – Arrows up, if he can stay healthy he could make this class a very good/great class.
        Witherspoon – Looks good, and I hope he can develop into a solid number 2 corner or better a number one this class becomes great. But he wasn’t targeted much due to how easy it was to throw it to the other side.
        Kittle – Could be good starter but he needs to hold onto the ball, I don’t see him being great but he could easily become a player that would start for half the teams in the league.
        Taylor – Solid contributor but slot receivers are fairly easy to find.
        Brieda – Looks like a very good change of pace back (see healthy Kendall Hunter),
        Colbert – He has nice instincts, looks good so far… I hope the defense suits him well.

        The class looks good overall, but for it to be a great class at least one of those players has to be perennial pro-bowler. Which players or players look like they can become that to you?

  4. Let me elaborate, or correct the subjective errors, on some of these:

    Solomon Thomas, defensive end, first-round pick. Started 12 games and recorded three sacks.

    Came in tied 41st (NFL) in TFLs and lead team in TFLs after being the Top-10 pre-injury and lost playing time. Nominated for Rookie of the Week 4x, winning it once. Finished 7th (3 way tie) in sacks for all rookie defensive players.

    Reuben Foster, linebacker, first-round pick. Started 10 games and recorded 72 tackles.

    Won defensive Rookie of the Month and was considered the best rookie linebacker in the NFL is obviously already playing at an elite level. PFF is already slobbering all over his knob and has him as the #3 linebacker in the NFL.

    Ahkello Witherspoon, cornerback, third-round pick. Started nine games and intercepted two passes.

    Is already considered an above average corner around the NFL. Had 7 PDs. By the end of the season he’d started to bait QBs into making bad passes a’ la’ Deion Sanders. All while having to deal with fact that the d-line didn’t generate much pressure. Despite playing so little, he finished 5th in INTs of all rookie corners with impressive advanced metrics.

    George Kittle, tight end, fifth-round pick. Appeared in 15 games, started seven games and caught 43 passes.

    Is the most productive 5th round or later Rookie TE in NFL History. No TE drafted as late as him has ever been as productive as a rookie. Finished as the #16 ranked TE (Football Outsiders) in advanced metrics despite his 7 starts and injury limited playtime and had a 68% catch rate (solid) despite the early season drops. Played most of the season hurt and was only really healthy the last two games where he caught 7 passes for 142 yards.

    Trent Taylor, wide receiver, fifth-round pick. Appeared in 15 games, started one game and caught 43 passes.

    Has developed into one of the NFL’s best 3rd down receivers. Was the 8th most productive rookie WR in the NFL. Was also an excellent punt returner, finishing 3rd among rookies, 8th in the NFL (yardage) and 10th in PR average.

    RB Matt Breida. (290, 162). He looked better and more motivated than fellow rookie runner Williams from the start. Breida finished with 105 carries for 465 yards and his 4.4-yard average was better than starter Carlos Hyde’s 3.9 yards per carry. Breida also showed he could catch the ball out of the backfield, something he wasn’t asked to do at Georgia Southern.

    lol. Bull**** on the receiving. He was TERRIBLE with a 58% catch rate. Hyde had a bad year at 67% after 82% last year (excellent) and 74% the prior two years (slightly above average). Brieda’s got a LONG way to go before we can say he can catch out of the backfield.

    Kamara, the best RB pass catcher this year was at 81%. That’s catching out of the backfield. 74% is rock solid. In the 60s and you’re not that great. But 58%? That’s an lol stat when it’s not your back. WHen it is, it’s a drive killer.

    Loved his running though.

    1. “Nominated for Rookie of the Week 4x, winning it once.”

      That’s nice and Thomas is a solid player, but when you draft a guy #3 you’d hope that he could make a big enough impact to be nominated for Rookie of the Year.

      1. That’s my only criticism of Thomas. The talent doesn’t fit the draft spot. He is a high character hard working player, but he’s not an elite pass rusher or impact player worthy of that draft slot. He’s the kind of player you hope to get on day two.

        1. Actually he was. Chris Long if you want someone who was virtually identical to Thomas – 6′ 4″, 275lbs. Drafted just has high (2nd actually) while Thomas is faster, stronger, more agile. Long took 3 years to become a good pass-rusher.

          I could go on. Case after case showing you that Thomas fits the profile of Top-5 draft choice. And that’s because I’ve been doing this stuff since late 1970s. Well before the draft was even televised in crappy studio with four dudes at ESPN sitting around a table talking about the draft picks during the middle of the week while you were working your day-job.

        2. The problem with your theory is that Long had far superior numbers and experience coming out of College. Thomas was not a sack artist at Stanford. He was a strong run player who got good push moving inside to the 3T on passing downs. Long was a true pass rushing DE who put up great numbers his final year. When you draft a player 3rd overall you are expecting instant impact and a high caliber talent that can affect games right out of the gate. Thomas was solid this year. Played the run well, made some tackles behind the line often when he wasn’t blocked, and held up health wise, but his production and impact was not commiserate with what you expect from that pick in the draft. If you are happy with it good for you, but I expect more and hope he can develop as a pass rusher or it will wind up being a really bad pick.

          1. Correct rocket. Long was an excellent pass rusher in college. Long’s pass rushing skillset was far more developed coming out of college than Thomas. In fact, Long recorded FOURTEEN sacks as a senior for Virginia (Thomas recorded 8, most of which came on the inside). Does Thomas have a higher ceiling though? Time will tell.

            I haven’t given up on the idea that Solomon can develop into a bonafide pass rushing DE. At the same time it’s a little hard to swallow the realization that the 49ers selected a developmental project (albeit, one with a high motor and great work ethic) with the 3rd overall pick. And you have to wonder if Thomas would have had any impact at all as a rookie, if Armstead and Carradine stay healthy.

            I like the kid, and think he’ll get better, I just thought he was drafted higher than he should have been.

      2. ” but when you draft a guy #3 you’d hope that he could make a big enough impact”
        Hope is one thing, but reality is another thing altogether. I’d be interested to know what fraction of #3 picks on D turn out to be perennial Pro Bowlers and 10-year starters historically.

          1. Granted there’s more opportunity for a D lineman to make the pro bowl than say a QB, but If he makes a single pro bowl he’ll be doing better than approx 50% of the 1s and 2s the last 30 years.

  5. Carson Palmer is retiring. That’s a shame because he’s gone completely to pieces.

    Bruce Arians is retiring. That’s a good thing because he’s a very good coach, I’ll miss his honesty though.

    The Bengals, for reasons nobody with a room-temperature or higher IQ can fathom, gave Marvin Lewis a 2-year extension. Despite the fact he’s 0-7 in playoff games during his tenure and the Bengals, thanks to these years of futility under his leadership have the 3rd lowest attendance in the NFL, beating only the Browns and Chargers. Better coaches have been fired for less.

    Dez Bryant has had his third straight average-at-best season. Lots of speculation he’ll be cut because his contract is astronomical and he’s not performing. The only category he was above average in was drops with 6. He had a miserable 52.3% catch rate. Should he be cut, we should pass as he’s no longer an explosive playmaker and without that, wouldn’t really add an awful lot to the 49ers since Goodwin broke out and Garcon is more reliable.

  6. how the f…. is roger craig not a hall of famer

    3× Super Bowl champion (XIX, XXIII, XXIV)
    NFL Offensive Player of the Year (1988)
    4× Pro Bowl (1985, 1987–1989)
    First-team All-Pro (1988)
    Second-team All-Pro (1985)
    NFC Player of the Year (1988)
    NFL 1980s All-Decade Team

    1. Indeed, one.
      …add to that “first player in NFL history to run and receive for at least a 1000 yards in a single season.”
      Craig seems to be a victim of changing perception. I wonder how much the 3-peat fumble contributes to his exclusion year after year…

    2. Roger Craig was the first player to have 1,000 yard rushing and 1,000 yard receiving in the NFL. He was a perfect fit in Bill Walsh’s offense. Definitely belongs in the HOF.

    3. Because his overall numbers aren’t HOF worthy. I love Craig but he was not a HOF talent. There are obviously players in the hall that shouldn’t be – Jerome Bettis comes immediately to mind – so Craig may get in eventually.

      1. I think this year is last year of eligibility on regular ballot. Beyond this year, it will be under senior considerations, which takes 1-2 players each year. I may be wrong.

      2. I still don’t understand how you think Bettis isn’t HOF worthy. Boggles my mind. He is no less worthy than Gore will be when he hangs them up. Both deserve to be in the HOF.

        1. Because he was a compiler and had a career YPC under 4. He had a YPC under 4 in 9 of his 13 years in the league. In contrast, Gore was over 4 ypc the first 10 years of his career.

          1. And yet Bettis was a big reason why the Steelers were successful on offense. As I have said before, Bettis’ average is impacted because he wasn’t a home run hitter. Very few big gains. But he was consistently getting his yards keeping the team in manageable situations. He was also the short yardage back which also impacts his average.

            You simply don’t have the career he had without being great. He just wasn’t flashy.

            1. He was part of a platoon for a lot of his career in Pittsburgh, and being a short yardage back is a great reason why he shouldn’t be in the HOF. The best RB’s in history were players who were explosive and consistently great. Bettis wasn’t that. He was a big guy who could get you 3 when you needed 3 and get you 3 when you needed 4. He is the only one in the top ten in rushing to not average 4 ypc for his career, and one of 2 in the top 20 (other is Riggins who was a similar back).

              Bettis was not exceptional at anything and his greatest testament was the fact he hung around for a long time. Good player, but doesn’t belong on the HOF.

              1. What? He was a platoon RB that averaged less than 4 ypc yet is 7th in leading career rushing yards? Bettis was a bell cow RB. He was often one of the leaders for rushes per game each season. The only “platoon” aspect of it was the Steelers often employed a receiving back as well as a 3rd down specialist.

                Not exceptional at anything? Good grief. He was exceptional and keeping the team ahead on down and distance. He was exceptional at getting the ball in the end zone on goal line runs. And yes, he was exceptional at being able to take the punishment he took for such a long time and still produce the goods.

                This is a classic case of style vs substance. You don’t think he deserves to be in the HOF because he didn’t make the big chunk plays. The highlight reel runs (actually he did, but they were usually short yardage runs where he ran over people).

                Here is a great article highlighting the type of back Bettis was.

                http://archive.advancedfootballanalytics.com/2009/08/comparing-running-performance.html

                Of all the RBs shown, and it shows some great ones, Bettis is the only one ahead of the curve on 0 yards to 5 yards, but unsurprisingly he had far fewer runs of 10 yards or more. He was a bruiser that churned out yards. That doesn’t make him any less a RB than a guy that can hit home runs though.

              2. He was in a platoon for the final 5 years of his career. He had more carries than the guy he was platooning with for most of those years, but he wasn’t a bell cow after the 2000 season, and even when he was a bell cow, he wasn’t all that impressive from a YPC standpoint. There are a lot of RB’s not in the HOF who could have done what Bettis did in short yardage. That is not exceptional talent. The HOF is for the greatest players in history. Bettis doesn’t fit that criteria. His greatest trait was being able to stick around. That is not worthy of going to the HOF.

              3. rocket….I see that you’re back…

                I disagree with you about Bettis ‘the Bus’…while it is true that his YPC is below 4…those yard were the tough ones inside the 5 yard line or to make 1st downs to continue scoring drives..t.he Steelers have several Lombardis that they wouldn’t have without him….IMHO…

              4. They only won one with him Oregon and I don’t dispute he got tough yards. My point is simply that the HOF should be for the truly elite players the league has seen and Bettis was not an elite player imo. He was a compiler who played a long time to get in the top ten on the yardage list. I don’t see that as HOF worthy. He’s certainly not the only player I think doesn’t belong in there either. I think Fred Taylor was a better player than Bettis and he hasn’t gotten a sniff from the HOF. It’s often a popularity contest with the voters which also explains why TO still isn’t in.

    4. If you’re looking at the HOF as a pure measure of excellence, and only excellence, the joke is on you. Because while it’s hyped that way, the truth is different.

      Great guys like Jerry Kramer don’t get it yet a slightly below-average Joe Namath, all media hype because of Super Bowl III, gets in. Terrell Davis doesn’t have nearly the resume of Roger Craig and, frankly, doesn’t even have a HOF resume, yet he’s in.

      Why? Press clippings and incessant circle-jerk of the media constantly reinforcing ‘who is great’ and who isn’t to each other.

      So not only is the vastly overrated Namath in and the vastly overrated Bradshaw to keep him company, there is the abomination of Ray Guy. He wasn’t as good as punter as Tommy Davis working in the conditions (Davis in SF, Guy in Oakland). Yet he’s in. Even worse, he was a kick-into-the-endzone punter and one of the worst directional punters in the NFL. I can’t remember how many times his inability to stick it inside the 5 hurt the Raiders in the playoffs, but was a ton of times.

      But Guy had a high leg kick. That’s it. He didn’t have the best hang-time. He didn’t directional kick. He didn’t even the best average in similar conditions as Tommy Davis who averaged 44.7 yards. And there were other guys whose career over-lapped his and were better — Bob Scranton, Jerrell Wilson, Don Chandler, Bobby Joe Green, Sam Baker, etc., etc., etc.

      It’s all about the press hype. Guys who capture the imagination of the press and get the press clippings get in. While guys just as good (Bryant Young v Warren Sapp for instance) as the HOFer, but didn’t get the press, don’t. And quiet guys, like Roger Craig, who put out on the field, but aren’t loud-mouths or media-hype sensations, don’t get in while others, like the mediocre Namath, do.

  7. I think it’s a sign of good coaching that the rookies developed in the way they did. It’s impossible to project the roster for next year but this nucleus of young guys plus a few veterans looks like a good start. The 49ers shed guys who may not be great in the locker room but could have contributed like Torrey Smith and Ahmad Brooks because I think they wanted to establish their own culture. I absolutely love like the direction of the team. I haven’t been this excited for an offseason in a very long time.

    1. This was a giant step forward…but also a note that we weren’t all that bad to begin with…we3 had a lot of raw talent at the beginning, and I believe that with clever manipulation of the IR and FA, Shannahan and J Lynch improved our lot immensly…other than ( IMHO ) the duplication drafting of Solomon Thomas at #3 overall. I wish him the very best in his career, but with another team. He has a active motor, but spins his wheels against bigger stronger Olinemen….A better player has to be on the bench to have Thomas on the field….Of course I could be wrong….

      1. Yeah, I’m not a Solomon Thomas guy yet. Need to see what he does next year after he has a full offseason to work and get better. He could be a guy like Manny Lawson who I really liked but he was never great. Lawson is a solid player but never great. Or Thomas might turn into a Whitney Merciless who started out very slow but turned into a very good player. You are hoping for a great player when you select a guy at #3.

      2. Problem is too many fans didn’t get what they wanted, so they take it out on Thomas with context-less criticisms. He’s doing fine. But you guys.. Well, let’s just say I find the average fan’s (and writers) standards to be founded in wishful thinking and a lack of comparative awareness.

        So here’s some comparative awareness for you. Maybe you’ll realize he’s actually performing very well for a rookie defensive linemen. All the rookie Round 1 DLs this year:

        Myles Garrett — 7 sacks, 31 tackles, 1 TFL, 1 FF. And he still won’t play the run hard and still takes plays off.
        Solomon Thomas — 3 sacks, 41 tackles, 10 TFL and is a monster in run defense.
        Derek Barnett — 5 sacks, 1 FF, 19 tackles, 5 TFLs, 1 FF.
        Jonathan Allen — 1 sack, 10 tackles, no TFLs in 5 games. Half the people here who wanted a d-lineman wanted him over Thomas. All that Alabama B.S. for a guy with a Round 4 ceiling.
        Takkarist McKinley — 5 sacks, 17 tackles, 3 TFLs, 2 FF.
        Taco Charlton — 3 sacks, 19 tackles, 1 TFL, 1 FF.

        In short Solomon Thomas generated more negative plays for his opponents than every other Round One defensive lineman taken in 2017. Yet, according to this board, he’s an unworth failure because, apparently stuffing the run while getting 3 sacks and generating average pass-rush pressure is a complete failure.

        Seriously?

        1. Lighten up Francis. Thomas was the #3 pick in the draft. Another guy who plays DE that was recently taken #3 in the draft was Joey Bosa. Why don’t you compare those guys rookie numbers? No one is saying Thomas is a bust. He was ok in some games and bad in others. I saw multiple teams successfully block him one on one with a TE. That should not happen to any DE let alone a top 10 pick. I also saw Thomas repeatedly run directly into the middle of the blocker and get totally swallowed up. He did that in the first game of the season and he did that in the last game of the season. The good news is that Thomas is apparently a hard worker and very coachable so I’m hopeful he can get better. Absolutely no one is saying Thomas is a “complete failure” so why don’t you unbunch your panties & back away from the over the top hyperbole and embrace reality which is that Thomas needs to get better.

          1. Another guy who plays DE that was recently taken #3 in the draft was Joey Bosa

            Yup, DROY last year. He’s a special case, in the last 20 years only 4 top 5 picks have made DROY. By your measuring stick, that sounds like a hell of a lot of top 5 busts over that time. It would have gone against the grain had Thomas been considered.

            1. How about Alcon Smith then at #7. Didn’t win the award, but was the runner up.

              Why do some folks have such a difficult time with opinions that aren’t unicorns and rainbows?

              Yes some are saying he’s a bust, but most are saying they would like more disruption from a pick that high.

              Regardless the guy has been solid but not spectacular.

              1. How about Alcon Smith then at #7. Didn’t win the award, but was the runner up.

                Aldon Smith, was a special talent, as was PWillis – picked at 11. But those are the very exceptions. To expect to hit a home run with every first round pick is ridiculous.

                Why do some people have trouble with opinions? Why shouldn’t we? Very few “opinions” take the long view. They are usually based on immediate seat of the pants observations that in the end turn out to be just stupid blather offered to justify existing biases. Like a certain coffee-drinking poster in the early season, week after week, slamming opponents as being mediocre through and through. The complete season results knocked his opinions in the matter out of the water.

                Regardless the guy has been solid but not spectacular

                Exactly, but if he’s not ROY material then dump on him. How about seeing if he gets beyond “solid” in season two.

              2. But those are the types you expect in the top 1/2 of the first round. That’s why the “bust” label is thrown around so often.

                As for the long view vs short view, it’s pretty easy to have both. It’d be boring to come on here week 3 and read, “oh well, let’s wait until week 16 before we make any type of judgment”

                Thoughts and opinions should be fluid not stagnant, yet some have a really difficult time accepting that. Not pointing to any one person as a prime example of this.

          2. Houston – Wow, you chastised me for saying that I thought the Niners with 6 first round picks should be a top ten defense, (and I still do, I have high expectations) and yet you are getting down on Thomas for not performing up to your expectations……..kind of makes my point of the defense being a disappointment with all the high draft choices and not performing up to draft status. And yes I understand scheme, quality of the opposition, and all the other variables that can define a defense.

            1. @undercenter

              I think your comparison is apples and oranges and also a matter of degrees. I’m talking about an individual players performance and you are talking about total defense. The 49ers were ranked #32 in total defense in 2016 in terms of yards and points. To say you expect the defense to jump from #32 to a top 10 defense in one year is not reasonable even with all the first round talent in my opinion. We definitely should expect them to improve with all the draft capital they’ve invested in defense but a top 10 defense in one year is too much hopeful thinking. In 2017, the 49ers finished #24 in yards and #25 in points. BUT, the big story was the improvement throughout the year. You could see the defense starting to gel toward the end of the year. I think moving up 8 spots from 2016 to 2017 in defensive ranking is a reasonable expectation. Next year, I would expect an even more dramatic improvement and hopefully the 49ers can have a top 10 defense. If I were to bet I’d put them at a league ranking of 10-14 in total defense next year. Hopefully, one of the reasons for the improvement will be due to improved play from Solomon Thomas.

              1. Houston – A team is a sum of its parts, if one is not performing it becomes a reflection of the entire unit. Thomas is not performing up to your nor mine expectations, the point being you are saying its too much to expect a dramatic change in the defense in such a short time, but you are expecting a better performance from one player in a short time. I personally don’t think the defense has improved in the last few games, its more that the offense improved and the defense is reaping the benefits of it. I like Saleh and his aggressive defense I just think its under performing. Maybe my expectations are too high in your opinion – okay no problem. Your point about Thomas can be applied to all the other first rounder’s on the defense at which none are pro bowlers. Hence my disappointment.

              2. Not really. Foster exceeded expectations. Buckner exceeded expectations. Reid was about as expected. Jimmy Ward was injured. Arik Armstead was injured. Solomon Thomas was below what was expected. I don’t expect a rookie to show dramatic improvement during his first year. I expect improvement from year 1 to year 2 though. My problem with Thomas was his starting point was alot lower than I expected. I expected more production out of a guy picked at #3. I expected a guy picked at #3 to be able to handle one v one blocking from a TE more easily than Thomas showed. I expected Thomas would know better than to get himself easily engulfed by much bigger o-lineman and not even try to push the edges. I understand the 49ers may have been playing Thomas out of his comfort zone on the edge and they figured it out later in the year so we saw some improvement from him. I’m not saying the guys a bust. I am saying he needs to get better.

          3. MosesZD

            WE DIDN”T NEED HIM…We had plenty of holes to fill…but Dline was not one of them. I (and more than a few others) would rather have seen Adams or a top flyte CB or Olineman taken with the #3 pick. It’s not that he’s another JaMarcus Russell, and not welcome to the niners….he should have been taken somewhere in rounds 3or4. It also put a lot of pressure on Solomon to perform beyond his capabilities…What..? You don’t think these guys read these blogs ? HORSEFEATHERS ! They know how they are seen by the fans….

    2. You can’t tell Grant that. Apparently our coach needs to be like Jim Harbaugh. You know, discipline, in your face, make you pay for jumping offsides kind of coach.

    1. I like Harbaugh, but I’m also a realist about him. If your team is in dire straits (or needs to get that new stadium built) and needs to turnaround quickly, then Harbaugh would be my first choice. But I know I would want to have an exit strategy in place after his first year and possibly sooner.

      1. Sorry Cubus but that theory is so overstated it’s become a punch line. This myth that Harbaugh has a shelf life has taken on a life of it’s own and it’s based on one job – the 49ers – that he left under less than stellar circumstances. He left both U of SD and Stanford under his own volition, choosing to take a better job and move up the ladder. No comments about shelf life were ever uttered until he left the Niners and it was based on rumors that players were tired of him, he had lost the locker room etc., none of which showed up on the field or in interviews with players not named Alex Boone. It’s a complete fabrication that has become an accepted truth for a lot of people. The fact is Harbaugh has left for a better job each time he’s moved on and it was the same when he left the Niners considering how bad the relationship with York had become.

        1. Well, I admit I haven’t researched this independently, but I thought it was well known that he left Stanford under similar circumstances. It was just a fortunate circumstance for Harbaugh that the Niners wanted him as their HC, so their was really no interest in playing up the “he wore out his welcome” at Stanford angle.

          1. Cubus,

            Stanford offered him a new deal with more money to stay.

            http://www.espn.com/college-football/news/story?id=5889922

            This what I’m talking about in regards to rumor/revisionist thinking becoming an accepted belief. There are always going to be people that like/dislike a Coach, but you’ll find that pretty much everywhere there is a team. There is no way Stanford was hoping Harbaugh would leave. He had taken them from the junk pile to a win in the Orange Bowl. He completely changed that program and left a disciple in place to keep it going.

            1. That’s because the sample size was small and they hadn’t found his level of skill because the Pac-12 is a Power 5 joke. Michigan hasn’t beaten a team with a winning record in two years. And at least half the coaches in the Big-10 are as good, or better, than him:

              Urban Meyer — One of the five best in all of college.
              Mark Dantonio — Michigan State. Six of last seven seasons — 10 wins or more.
              James Franklin — Penn State. The guy had a winning record at VANDERBILT, the SEC doormat. Has turned Penn State back into an Elite program.
              Paul Chryst — Wisconsin. Turned that doormat program around big time.
              Pat Fitzgerald — Northwestern. Has 3 of the 5 10-win seasons in the history of the program. 10 – 3 this year.

              At least his equal:

              Kirk Ferentz — Iowa. Does more with less and has 5 Top-10 finishes.
              PJ Fleck — Minnesota. He rebuilt Western Michigan from 1-10 to 13-1 and a MAC championship and the Cotton Bowl in 2016.

              Harbaugh’s also 4-10 against Ranked teams (28.5% winning percentage). That’s Butch Jones (Tennessee – fired) territory and places him just above the Bottom-10 of FBS coaches. David Shaw, his replacement, was 20-10 (67%) coming into 2017 and was ranked #2 in the nation. Urban Meyer is #1 at 71.4% coming into 2017. Nick Saben is third. Jimbo Fisher is 4th. Dabo Sweeney is moving up the list. Chris Peterson at Washington was Top-10 last I checked.

              But Jim Harbaugh? Captain mediocrity. He, pretty much, only beats the scrubs.

              So, the reality is that his lack of creativity and ability to deal with the better college coaches and programs has been entirely obvious. For those who’d look at his record past the BS media hype.

              1. The first season he was there Harbaugh improved Michigan by 5 games 5-7 to 10-3. In one season he did that with another guy’s players. In his second season his team destroyed Penn State, beat Wisconsin and lost by 3 on the road at Ohio State. In two years he closed the gap that much between Michigan and the top teams in the conference. If you want to focus on this past season as a reason to question his Coaching skills then you aren’t paying attention or just deliberately ignoring the fact that he had the fewest returning starters of any team in the FBS. He had 5 starters that came back. That was 4 less than the next team in the Big 10 – Michigan State who returned 9. By contrast Penn State returned 16 and Ohio State returned 15. To add to the lack of experience, Harbaugh lost his starting QB early in the season. There was no possible way they were going to seriously compete with the top of the conference this year and yet he still had a winning record.

                You constantly come on here and talk down to people like they are clueless when it is you who doesn’t have a clue or purposely decide to pick and choose details that support your confirmation bias. There is nothing to back up your claims against Harbaugh. The guy has been successful every where he’s gone and done so quickly.

              2. That’s why Moses just hides behind statistical data that doesn’t detail what happened on a game to game basis. It’s just add everything up, including a season that wasn’t going to be successful due to the massive loss of players, and focus on stats that are static like wins over ranked teams. Don’t include the fact that there were wins over teams that might not have been ranked at the time but were by the end of the season. That’s how Moses operates.

              3. “That’s why Moses just hides behind statistical data that doesn’t detail what happened on a game to game basis.”

                It is actually worse than that, rocket. Mr. Moses picks the data that supports his conclusions and ignores the rest, all while proclaiming his objectivity. He then ridicules others and tosses out the names of logical fallacies of which he has little true understanding, as is evident from his use of many of those fallacies in his own arguments. In essence, he is a higher functioning, more self-aware version of The Seb, only The Seb at least had the fortitude to stand by his confirmation bias riddled conclusions rather than clam up and move on to a new post when called on his nonsense, the way Mr. Moses does.

              4. A very astute observation by you Gadfly. At least Moses doesn’t post endlessly and play the victim. For that we can be thankful.

              5. Rocket

                Harbaugh followed his pattern from USD to Stanford (not so much) to the 49ers and on to Michigan…he picked the teams who had previously been non-contenders for anything, and replaced good recruiters and inherited the previous coaches (recruiters) players. His success at Michigan came at the expense/demise of Scott Hoch who is recognized as a top recruiter. As it played out, he lost quite a few of those recruits with his “my way or the hiway” attitude….

        2. What can’t be argued is he rubs some people the wrong way, more so than most. It is well documented that both ex-players and ex-colleagues can find him hard to deal with.

          As to whether that impacts on his coaching ability or ability to lead long term I will let others debate. I have my opinion, I have voiced it before. Lets just be happy we now have what appears to be a pretty good HC in the making.

          1. He does rub some people the wrong way, but what can be argued is the extent to which people believe that is the reason for moving on from a job. That was never an issue until the falling out with York and the rumors that circulated which were not quite accurate considering Alex Boone was the only guy who came out and criticized him. I know you believe it as you stated at the time, but I disagree. This was a case of an owner trying to rail road his Coach any way he could and the fact most of his players backed him up with the exception of one, pretty much confirms the rumors were BS.

            http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/156319/49ers-players-thankful-for-departing-jim-harbaugh

              1. You can post all the surveys you want. Until he wins a big game or is hired by another NFL team, his legacy is he can’t develop players, can’t win the big game and annoys people after a few years and no can work with him!

                He’s done nothing for MICH and if he’s so wanted, let’s see if he can get back into the NFL.

              2. Belicheck doesn’t tell the owner of his team to leave the lockerroom and that it’s only for men.
                Belicheck is short with the media and seems like a difficult guybut no former player has come out and said and anything disrespectful.
                Belicheck has developed players, won big games and doesn’t let his ego dictate his coaching decisions.
                Harbaugh is not a quarter of the coach Belicheck is.

              3. Prime, Belichik has rubbed plenty the wrong way for doing anything for a W. Including cheating. Guess telling your owner he doesn’t belong (when everyone knows he doesn’t) is way worse!

                If an owner of a nursing home got in the way of a patient coding, I’m sure the nurses, doctors and first responders would tell him to get out too.

              4. Andrew Luck?

                His dad was an NFL QB and he came to Stanford developed. Just like Peyton Manning came to Tennessee developed.

                Alex Smith?

                Not according to Alex Smith. Alex Smith said it happened when Singletary was HC. He said he just started to tune out the coaches and play the game his way after he got his starting job back.

              5. @Moses,

                Andrew Luck did not go to Stanford already developed. That is asinine. Luck went to Stafford High School in the Houston area. One of his high school coaches is a close family friend. When Luck was still at Stanford and doing very well my friend told me this story,,,
                Luck was a 2 or 3 star recruit out of Stafford. Stanford offered him but his dream was to go to University of Texas. Before signing with Stanford, Luck called Mack Brown and told him he wanted to go to UT but they hadn’t offered him and Stanford had offered him. Mack told him, Stanford is a great school and he would be very lucky to get an education from Stanford.

                It’s not like every school in the country was going after Andrew Luck in high school. He was talented but to suggest he was a “finished product” is simply wrong.

              6. Keep trying. There is not one significant player that Harbaugh/ Baalke drafted that Harbaugh and his staff developed. That team during his tenure was already made to win.

                You guys have put Harbaugh on this upper echelon of coaches because they went to the NFCCG and SB but fail to realize he could not get past the monkey on his back that’s been there his entire coaching career. He cant win the big game and he never did anything for the young players while in the NFL. And what about the whole developing his QB Kaepernick? How did he develop Kap? He didn’t! The QB whisperer? F me!

                He gets all this praise because he took McCloughins picks who were outstanding and won some games? That’s not a great coach. That’s exactly what Gruden had and did with the Bucs, only that he was able to win, and again, because he knew the Raiders inside and out.

                A great coach takes mediocre players and wins. A great coach takes exceptional players and wins. A great coach wins the big games. A great coach works well with others and does not let his ego get in the way.
                The only reason Harbaugh didn’t fire Greg Roman was because he thought he could make Kap functional in a gimmicky offense. Once the Ravens exposed that to the entire NFL, Harbaugh kept rolling out the same old same old. Never evolved, stubborn!

                I keep hearing how teams would line up to get Harbaugh and he has done so much for MICH. Well, lest see if he wants back in the NFL cause he sure as shinola is not getting it done at MICH.
                4th down, 3 minutes to go on your 25 yard line and you go for it with a rookie QB? The guy coaches through his ego and it cost them against an inferior opponent in SC. What a joke!

              7. God prime I haven’t seen so much BS in one entry since… Moses post about Harbaugh above.

                Looking at the drafts completed from the year before Harbaugh got there until he left we see the following players that were developed and played roles for him at one time or another:

                2010: Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati, Navorro Bowman, Anthony Dixon, Kyle Williams, Phillip Adams

                2011: Aldon Smith, Colin Kaepernick, Chris Culliver, Kendall Hunter, Daniel Kilgore, Bruce Miller.

                2012: Nobody because it was one of the worst drafts in the history of the NFL.

                2013: Eric Reid, Tank Carradine, Vance McDonald, Corey Lemonier, Quinton Patten, Quinton Dial, Nick Moody

                2014: Jimmy Ward, Carlos Hyde, Marcus Martin, Chris Borland, Dontae Johnson, Aaron Lynch, Kenneth Acker

                Every single one of these players got on the field at one time or another during Harbaugh’s tenure. The ones who had talent did develop and at the very least a lot of young players got to play.

                The team wasn’t ready made to win. That is a complete fabrication. They were a 6-10 team when he arrived. He made them winners along with a great Coaching staff. He had one of the best 3 year runs in NFL history to start a pro career. They went completely into the tank when he left. To say you are completely full of it is an understatement.

              8. Rocket, how am I full of it? Cause I’m right and obviously you hate the fact that I presented Harbaugh for what he has failed to do?
                2010: Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati, Navorro Bowman, Anthony Dixon, Kyle Williams, Phillip Adams
                2011: Aldon Smith, Colin Kaepernick, Chris Culliver, Kendall Hunter, Daniel Kilgore, Bruce Miller.
                2012: Nobody because it was one of the worst drafts in the history of the NFL.
                2013: Eric Reid, Tank Carradine, Vance McDonald, Corey Lemonier, Quinton Patten, Quinton Dial, Nick Moody
                2014: Jimmy Ward, Carlos Hyde, Marcus Martin, Chris Borland, Dontae Johnson, Aaron Lynch, Kenneth Acker.

                Of course all these guys played a role but over half of them are not even in the league? What does that tell you?

                Lets be completely honest here, your beef with me is because you called Kaaepernick a franchise QB and now he is out and you hate the fact I was right about him since day one. The conspiracy theory and black ball BS as to why he isn’t in the league is ridiculous.

                As for Harbaugh, when and if he gets back into the NFL, lets talk. And when he does something significant at MICH, lets talk. Until then stuff your what ifs and rumours where the sun don’t shine. I deal in facts, not speculations and rumors.

              9. “Of course all these guys played a role but over half of them are not even in the league? What does that tell you?”

                That there’s a reason the guy who drafted them is no longer a general manager or employed by an NFL franchise.

              10. Of course all these guys played a role but over half of them are not even in the league? What does that tell you?

                It tells me that Harbaugh’s record was even more impressive considering all the poor picks Baalke made. Harbaugh clearly developed and got a lot out of the players who were drafted and in some cases more than they showed after he was gone.

                Lets be completely honest here, your beef with me is because you called Kaaepernick a franchise QB and now he is out and you hate the fact I was right about him since day one. The conspiracy theory and black ball BS as to why he isn’t in the league is ridiculous.

                It has nothing to do with this discussion but you are incapable of being honest about this topic. We’ve argued about this over and over and you can’t accept the fact I said Kap was capable of becoming a Franchise QB if he made improvements as a pocket passer. If you can’t accept that there is no reason to continue. You didn’t like Kap mainly because he replaced Alex Smith; that is being honest. As for whether he’s being black balled or not, that is also never going to be settled between us because we differ in our opinions on the subject. Let’s just say there is no other QB who put up the kind of numbers Kap did who is unemployed and leave it at that.

                As for Harbaugh, when and if he gets back into the NFL, lets talk. And when he does something significant at MICH, lets talk. Until then stuff your what ifs and rumours where the sun don’t shine. I deal in facts, not speculations and rumors.

                Lol there are no facts in your argument. You made up your own scenario with zero factual info to back it up. It’s all personal bias with no regard for the truth. I’ve linked articles, stats, opinions from reporters. You’ve stated your opinion. There is no question what carries more credibility and value.

              11. Well at least you are making progress Rocket. You went from denying saying he was a franchise QB to ” I said Kap was capable of becoming a franchise QB. Funny how the truth comes out slowly.

                As for Alex Smith, you act like I have some personal tie to him. I always said Alex was the better QB. And he still is. He is still playing at a high level while the guy you endorsed is out.
                Spare me the black ball theory, he sucks, no one wants him and if he were any good, some desperate NFL team would have signed him.

                You conveniently find these conspiring theories to support your arguments. Facts Rocket, facts!
                Fact:
                Kaepernick was bypassed by 20 teams this year that had injuries to their QB position. Your telling me all 20 were afraid of your president? That is so pathetic!

                “Let’s just say there is no other QB who put up the kind of numbers Kap did who is unemployed and leave it at that”
                Yeah, flash in the pan as Ive stated. The league figured him out and now no one wants a one dimensional player. You want to credit Kap for doing what other one trick pony QB’s have done in a short time and cannot sustain a high performance? Congrats.
                You should track down Seb, he posted his name and you guys can have a tribute to him. That’s how pathetic this whole Kap thing is.

                “I’ve linked articles, stats, opinions from reporters”
                Fact:
                Has he won a big game, NO. The Orange Bowl? Please.

                Have players publicly said he wears on people? YES.

                Are NFL teams lining up to pay him to come back to the NFL? Lets see, then you can talk.

              12. Good grief Prime. I’ve said the same thing about Kap in every argument we’ve had and you’re just beginning to figure it out now? There is a big difference between saying a guy can become something as opposed to is something. Your problem is you don’t read so well, instead preferring to pass off your own messed up interpretation instead of what was actually said.

                If you don’t think Kap was worthy of a spot in the NFL that’s your prerogative, just like your belief that nobody wants Harbaugh, but both positions are ignorant and ignore facts in favor of confirmation bias.

          2. rocket….I see that you’re back…

            I disagree with you about Bettis ‘the Bus’…while it is true that his YPC is below 4…those yard were the tough ones inside the 5 yard line or to make 1st downs to continue scoring drives..t.he Steelers have several Lombardis that they wouldn’t have without him….IMHO…

      2. “But I know I would want to have an exit strategy in place after his first year and possibly sooner.”

        This is true regardless of Harbaugh’s attitude. As rocket mentioned, he turned down Stanford’s offer. He was offered an extension with us after the SB appearance and he turned that down too. The rumors that he may leave Michigan for the NFL started last year. The preception (right or wrong) is that he will never stay at one place for a long period of time.

  8. I will say this ,the rookies did a good job as a hole . They showed us a youth movement we have not seen in some time. (BW era ) . The ridicule that they worked through, from us as fans ,and the league as a hole , makes next year exciting .
    Did anyone compare them to how good they did , against other teams , didn’t see any other teams make as much use of as they did of there picks ,imo.
    Remember grant saying that he didn’t like this one or that one .

    Did anyone say here is your props.
    Did anyone say that , my hat is off to lynch and Shanny for reminding me , that football is a team sport. That they believed in each other.
    To all the critics that said shanny blew this or did this wrong , or lynch didn’t deserve to be a GM .

    You couldn’t be any more wrong ,
    A 1st year coach, on a complete rebuild ,both offense and defense., 1st time GM . And a rooster turnover like they had .

    Think some of us grant ,need to give out some , how could I be that far off , good job guys ,or something to that effect .
    And for the 1st time in a long time I am excited about the off-season. And another good draft .
    Go 49ers .

  9. I’m curious what people think of the practicality of the Rooney rule (the intent of the rule is clear). With all of the leaks that typically occur (Gruden to Oakland, for example), I’m not sure I would like to be the guy that is simply fulfilling the Rooney rule requirement, particularly if it was my only interview. Sure, the interviewing experience is important and valuable, but I’d certainly like to go into the situation knowing that I have a legitimate shot at getting the job.

    I’m curious what others think about this rule. Maybe I’m missing something.

    1. I should probably add that maybe the best way to handle this is to at least somehow stop the leaks, but that’s very hard to do in today’s social media world.

    2. If a minority candidate has a chance to interview he should imo. Turning it down because you feel it’s a waste of time achieves nothing for your career and might actually affect it in a negative way. Whether it’s experience or getting to know people around the league, there is always value in taking an interview. You could wind up being the next option the next time that team is looking for somebody.

      1. Rocket: I see something similar coming down the pike in the next few years for women. I don’t expect it to be high level coaching jobs, but internships and quality control assistants (Katie Sowers, for example).

      2. Agree Rocket. It’s networking (yuge) and also getting experience in interviews. Teams that liked the interview will give free advertising at the country club even if they went with a different guy. The practice is big too. In bidnez good interviewees get more jobs than good candidates too frequently. But they get their shot, and other guys have to reboot and reload.

        1. That’s a really good point Brotha. The ownership fraternity in the NFL is fairly small so any positive feedback from teams you interviewed with will likely get around pretty rapidly. There really is no downside to it which why it’s always worth doing.

  10. I’ve mentioned several times that Jimmy Ward’s salary next year will be $8.5 million. I’ve questioned paying this much money for a guy who seems to have a high rate of unavailability. However, I have a different question. I just learned that the $8+ million amount is for cornerbacks. So, I’m not sure I understand why he got this amount. Is it because they picked up the 5th year option at a time when he was playing CB for the team and not safety?

    1. Correct. Its based on the position he played most in year 3 (the year after which they need to decide whether to pick up the option).

  11. Interesting read looking at the offseason and actually taking into account long term salary cap planning.

    https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/1/1/16838790/cap-space-how-much-do-we-really-have-if-we-want-to-keep-the-band

    While I believe this guy is a bit too conservative WRT what can be done, it does highlight what I have been saying – despite the salary cap space that shouldn’t be viewed as a reason to sign every big name FA available. They still need to be smart about it. Personally I think they can afford to get two pretty high price FAs while still maintaining a nice kitty for future contracts.

    1. Yeah, I read that article this morning as well as the comments at the time. I think he created some controversy by naming players that would be let go after a few years (Kyke Juszczyk, Solomon Thomas, Trent Taylor, K’Waun Williams). But definitely an interesting read. The main jist for me is that one needs to keep perspective that dollars need to be spent to keep existing players as well as getting outside free agents. In the comments he replies to a poster “This is suggesting spending 69M/annually, which over 4 years is almost 280M in contracts. It’s spending 46M/yr to re-sign Garoppolo, Brown, Htde, and Tartt and then spending $23M/yr on external free agents. It also includes 6M for 1 year contracts.”

    2. A few of the players he has getting multi year deals are either unworthy of the money he has them making or being resigned at all.

      What I think Fooch and some others are missing is the fact the Niners have all this cap space for a reason. They drafted so poorly for so long they haven’t had many of their own worthy of re-signing. Signing outside FA’s coming off their rookie deals is how you can make up for that. Obviously they can’t sign a whole lot of them as the prices are higher on the open market traditionally, but there are few players on this roster worthy of high market deals in the near future. With the cap space the Niners have, they can absorb the bigger cap hits early on and have space freed up 2-3 years down the road when they may have their own big time players to sign. There is also the fact some of the guys earning big money right now like Staley and Garcon, may not be around 3 years from now or at least won’t be making the money they are currently at the very least.

      This is one of the least talented teams in the league because Baalke did such an extraordinarily poor job drafting. There is no viable reason they should not be looking to sign good young FA’s imo.

      1. “A few of the players he has getting multi year deals are either unworthy of the money he has them making or being resigned at all.”

        Don’t know if you read the comments, but a number of posters at NN mentioned this. The author says that the names mentioned are more placeholders than necessarily desirable players. They could be readily changed.

        For me it’s difficult to evaluate what you are saying versus the author without examples. I could imagine that your view might only increase the spend on outside FAs to $30 million vice the author’s $23 million, even though your narrative seems to suggest much more. For me, I would have to have the “model” available to play with in order to gain perspective on just how much difference in spending we are really talking about.

        1. I didn’t read the comments but I’m not surprised at those responses obviously. I’d have to do some research into comparable deals for FA’s signed at the positions I want the Niners to attack this offseason, but with the cap space they have and the lack of their own to resign, I’d view this as resigning players you would have if they were actually on the roster for their rookie deals. For example, if you look at the 2012 to 2015 drafts there is literally nobody other than maybe Reid who will command even a remotely large deal right now. That’s 4 draft classes in which we should have signed our own to lucrative long term deals but couldn’t because there was no one worthy of one. Looking ahead at current players who will have deals expiring, The only one who looks like he will command top dollar at the moment is Buckner and they have him for 3 more years without doing anything.

          I think the conservative route in FA is fine if you have drafted well and developed your own, but that simply isn’t the case here. They are trying to catch up on all the talent they failed to acquire over the years. That’s why signing some FA’s going into their second contracts is a must for this team imo.

        2. Yeah, the key thing is he is outlining how many big money contracts the 49ers can really afford to have on the books. JG and Buckner will both need very large contracts for their position in the near future. If they sign 3 top tier FAs this offseason that will be a lot of money tied up into a few players. And limits what they can do in the future.

          If the 49ers had drafted well they would likely have 3-4 guys over the next two years in line for big extensions, and some for smaller extensions. As it is they have two in line for big contracts, and they traded for one of those midseason. So the team should be thinking they can probably afford two big price FAs to compensate for what they missed out on through the draft.

          1. I don’t think 3 top tier FA’s limits what they can do in the future at all. As I mentioned, not only can they take a higher percentage of the deals on earlier, they also have contracts that will come off the cap 2 to 3 years down the road, not to mention the cap continues to climb each season. It also depends on what positions they sign in FA. Signing an OL or two won’t be as prohibitive as signing a skill position player.

            1. I’m on holidays with a lot of free time on my hands (not that you wouldn’t notice with all the posts I’ve made today), so for Cubus I looked up the numbers we could be looking at for FA’s and how much they would impact the cap. This is just an example using the two players Scooter suggested a few days ago – Jensen the Center from Baltimore and Johnson the Corner from the Rams – we are likely going to have to make them the highest paid at their position. The highest salary at C right now is 11 mill and CB is 20 mill. Say combined they command 12 mill and 21 mill per year, there is 33 million combined on average per season likely on 4-5 year deals. Combine that with Garoppolo on the FT and you have about 57 mill in new cap charges. The Niners are projected to have anywhere from 116 to 120 mill in cap room when the new league year starts, so that would leave them at least 60 mill under the cap predicting maximum numbers. That would still leave them 6th in overall cap room available. So no, I don’t think 2 top FA’s is all they can handle especially if they don’t have to FT JG and sign him long term instead.

              1. Sure, but then you also have the guys they re-sign and lower tier FAs, plus draft picks. That $60M turns into $35-$40M. Still a lot of money yes, but it comes down to whether you want to spend it all in one hit or commit to building the team over a few years. Keeping in mind there are only a handful of really good FAs available each year, chances are you are better off compiling over a few years rather than in any one year.

                Can they afford three big name FAs? Sure. Does it limit what they can do in the future. Yes, to some degree it will.

              2. C’mon Scooter. They could sign every single one of their FA’s and not approach that number. They aren’t spending 25 mill on their own and draft picks.

                How is signing good young FA’s hurting you for the future? You keep saying this and I have no idea why. They are building for the future now by signing players just entering their prime. They will have money in the future as older players like Staley, Dumervil and Garcon fall off the roster. There is 15 mill in dead money this coming season that won’t be there in 2019. You also have players like Ward who they have to figure out something with because I don’t see them keeping him on the roster at 8.5 mill. This is a team who hasn’t had to sign any of their own to big long term deals for quite a while. There is a lot of room to add some from other teams and not put them in any kind of jeopardy.

              3. It hurts you for the future because you are locked into those contracts. It only works if those guys truly are great and worth the money. But if they are so great, why are they FAs?

                For the most part these top tier FAs are either:
                – Guys with an inflated opinion of their value
                – Guys with limited history of production
                – Guys at the back end of their career
                – Guys with significant injury or discipline question marks.

                Signing top end FAs is not a problem, but signing lots of them all in one go rarely works out well. That’s because the pool is quite limited each year, so the chances of actually having guys that really fit what you are looking for at each position of need is pretty small.

                For example, you wanted Adams or Robinson. But both of those players fill a very similar role to the 49ers current #1 and highly paid WR. The potential improvement is quite small relative to the investment made. Probably better using that money elsewhere, whether it be now or in the future.

                Don’t get me wrong, I will be as excited as anyone if they sign 3 or 4 top tier FAs. But realistically they aren’t likely to get their money’s worth doing so. Better to focus on a couple of guys that really improve the roster and then some mid and lower tier guys that can be competent starters and complimentary pieces, and upgrade the middle and back end of the roster.

                For example, Alex Okafor would seem a nice addition to replace someone like Eli Harold.

                Then use the draft to fill the remaining big needs and future needs.

              4. Scooter,

                The way contracts are structured now you can usually get out of them within 2-3 years with minimal damage to the cap. It’s all about the guaranteed money and that is usually the first two years. I get what you’re saying, and normally I would agree that signing too many FA’s is not a recipe for long term cap success, but this is not a normal situation. They literally haven’t had any of their own to sign to long term lucrative deals in the past few years and won’t for at least another 2-3.

                As to the quality of the FA’s, there are some good players who hit FA because of different reasons but it’s not hard to see that a number of players would make this team much better quickly. You aren’t supposed to have over a 100 million in cap room. That is a clear indication of poor personnel decisions. They way they can salvage that is to sign some young guys that other teams can’t keep.

  12. What impresses me about the 2017 draft class is the lack of flops. The only question marks being Pita T. and Joe Williams.

    Solomon Thomas – Victimized by straw man arguments. Did not represent himself as an Edge Rusher, yet the media assumed he was and placed expectations similar to an edge player chosen three overall. That said, I would have liked to see more disruption when he rushed inside.

    What he really was… a Steady Eddie run defending DE in base that gives an inside presence in passing downs. (Saleh hinted he might be moving inside permanently). I’m optimistic about Thomas. I think he’ll improve, especially with a full training camp. He’ll be a brainy, quick twitch presence on the defenisve line.

    It was a weird first round. Daniel Jeremiah said only 6 of his top 20 players were free of injury of off field concerns. The “Clean Six.” (Five after Gareon Conley’s was accused of assault.) I saw it the same way, with Thomas being the best of the remaining Clean Four after Garret/Conley. I liked Malik Hooker, but he had injuries. Liked Grant’s favorite Marshon Lattimore, but was scared off by the “Fast But Fragile” label. He turned out to have a great season.

    Reuben Foster – More talented than I thought. Health will determine career.

    Ahkello Witherspoon – Thought he was a long term project player. Turned out to be a shorter project than I thought. Footwork and ball skills are impressive.

    C. J. Beathard – Tough, steady backup. Hard worker that will continue to grow in Shanahan’s system. Maybe some day he will sub for Garoppolo for a few games, do very well, get traded for high pick to QB desperate team.

    Joe Williams – IR stash. Injured washing the butter off his fingers. If his head is ever right, look out.

    George Kittle – Great pick. Loving the mental toughness of this draft class.

    Trent Taylor – See George Kittle. (With Garoppolo’s skill set I wouldn’t mind seeing two slot receivers on the field at the same time once in a while. )

    D. J. Jones – Showed promise. A nice quick twitch addition.

    Pita Taumoepenu – Will he gain strength to rush vs OTs?

    Adrian Colbert – Great pick. Maybe I’ll shut up about criticizing Lynch for trading pick 67 to the Saints for their 7th (Colbert) and a 2018 2nd.

    1. Colbert
      Field Fast.
      He’s a hunter, a stalker, a sniper. He’s like an owl. He recognizes patterns and anticipates. He’s a ‘Natch’ with that skill so young.
      He has to remember to self-scout next year

  13. The 49ers on Tuesday signed nine players to participate in the offseason program and compete for a roster spot in training camp as members of the 90-man roster.

    Those nine: receiver DeAndre Carter, fullback Malcolm Johnson, offensive lineman Andrew Lauderdale, linebacker Boseko Lokombo, quarterback Nick Mullens, tackle Pace Murphy, defensive back Trovon Reed, cornerback Channing Stribling and tight end Cole Wick.

    The 49ers are expected to begin the voluntary portion of the offseason program in March. Dates have not yet been announced.

  14. 49ers add pass rusher first in 4-round mock NFL draft

    Our friends at Draft Wire this week published their latest four-round mock NFL draft, predicting the first five picks for the 49ers.
    The 49ers rank 26th in the NFL with 30 sacks on the season. The 49ers need a dominant edge rusher to compliment their investments along the interior, making Landry a logical pick.

    Round 1 – Pick 9 : Harold Landry, EDGE, Boston College
    Draft Wire: After a five-game winning streak, the 49ers won’t mind a lower draft slot. In this scenario, they land the perfect LEO prospect for their defense in Landry, who has the explosiveness and versatility to make an immediate impact.
    58. San Francisco 49ers (from NO) | Dante Pettis | WR | Washington
    72. San Francisco 49ers (from CHI) | Mason Cole | OL | Michigan
    73. San Francisco 49ers | Quenton Meeks | CB | Stanford
    125. San Francisco 49ers (from PIT) | Mark Walton | RB | Miami (FL)

  15. CB1 is in the draft. Iowa’s Josh Jackson declares.

    If they are both there, who should we draft, Jackson or ND’s guard, Nelson ?

    1. Nelson. This years cb class is deep but none are elite prospects. Nelson is projected to be a pro-bowl level talent from day 1.

    2. TomD

      For my money, Nelson is the choice…even with him, there’s going to be some adjustment time…he REALLY moves people around !
      I don’t really remember which Bowl I saw, but I ended up being mesmerized by IOWA STATEs two WRs…They were both over 6’5″ and 230, both fast and with good hands….I wasn’t where I had note paper, and I don’t remember their names…but BOY! would they look good as Niners…!

      I respect your research abilities more than my own, so I ask…Have you any opinion on either or both of these guys…?

  16. I know Shanahan studied Walsh, and Walsh believed in building the defense 1st, so if Laundry is can’t miss you pick him.

    But I’ve been saying for a long time, WR, Courtland Sutton, is who I’d pair with Garoppolo as my 1st Rd pick. Today, a noted sports site agreed with TomD:

    San Francisco 49ers: 3 Draft targets in 2018 to make offense elite
    by Michael Johnson1 hour ago

    “As well as the 49ers have been playing, they have been doing so without a true game changer at wide receiver. If there’s one thing that Garoppolo has shown, it’s that he seems to be able to make weapons around him better. With a head coach who’s an offensive genius in Kyle Shannahan, Jimmy G needs another piece around him to help him and the offense reach elite status.

    I’ve already focused specifically on how special this guy is.

    At 6-4, 216 pounds, the Mustang junior is arguably the most talented receiver in all of college football. There’s not much not to like about Sutton; he’s big, fast with great athleticism and has a catch radius that would make Calvin Johnson jealous. Put him on the outside in a Shanahan system, and be ready to watch a Rookie of the Year candidate as Garoppolo makes a case for MVP.”

    https://nflspinzone.com/2018/01/03/san-francisco-49ers-2018-nfl-draft-targets-offense-elite/

  17. The problem with Sutton though, is that Boston’s, Harold Laundry could be the real deal, so you build defense 1st. If Sutton was Jerry Rice, of course you’d take him….He is not. So, that high in the draft err on the side of defense.

    Also, the 49ers plan seems to rely on Shanahan’s genius that surrounds the intial build with walk on free agents, saving the high draft picks for Robert Saleh.

    After the D is built, go for the star wide outs.

  18. Alex Smith 🏋was number🎖 1 NFL’s top deep passer🏈🏈🏈 this season………….eat that crow haters – @ninermd stuff ur nose, ears, mouth and @ wit some gud 💩💩💩

    If Alex does not win it all…(I still think the chiefs will win the SB)… ..he should move to Jacksonville or Denver

    1. Whatever you say Onelame. Or is it ChiefinNineringitup?
      Still sucking his nuts. He’s a joke and still hasn’t won squat.
      Garapolo is a real qb and a franchise qb at that. You can have Cpt safe and checkdown. Don’t care if he had more deep passes. One and only year and he misses the big ones needed anyways.
      Congrats on your chiefs and your crush.
      Now leave the niners site. You’ve always been a fraud anyways.

      1. ha ha ha….moron……pure example of a loof arguing the world is flat………you mad bro!!!!…..bet you mad Alex keeps getting better……..

        think about it – your life has been a mess since Alex moved to KC……better get on your knees and beg karma…..lol

  19. I will be pulling for Alex and the Chiefs, though I wouldn’t ever bet against NE and Brady. I thought he got the screw job in SF by JH. I think they would have won the SB with him at the helm. Big mistake by Harbaugh and the Niner organization. Now compare the careers of Alex vs Old Wind Up! What a joke. What could have been.
    I do think Harbaugh is a damn good football coach and leader of men. There are lots of those however. I think he falls short of being considered a “Great” coach. You have to have longevity, win SB’s in the pros and National Championships in college to reach that plateau in my view. He has fallen short of those goals. His coaching style, while it definitely has had success, also has a relatively short shelf life.

    1. Harbaugh (and at the time I bought the message) thought we were exchanging
      Milque-toast dink&dunk too-caustious mediocrity for a stone cold killer assassin in Kap. I was wrong. So was Jim and his dad. So go fortunes. Kap was JH’s Guy. He ultimately failed. They’re both ancient history now. Too bad, too sad.

    2. With Alex at the helm, we wouldn’t have made it past that 20 point deficit in Atlanta. I disagree with that assessment

      1. Totally agree. Alex reminiscers seem to always forget that Atlanta game. I’m not a big Kap fan, but JH lost the SB with stupid play calling trying to force it to Crabtree multiple times on that final set of downs.

  20. Hmmmmmmmmm!!!!
    This team had a lot of rookies too.

    1979 49ers 2-14
    1980 49ers 6-10
    1981 49ers 13-3 Super Bowl winners

    2016 49ers 2-14
    2017 49ers 6-10
    2018 49ers????

  21. Looking at the wide array of answers, responses, posts,etc. I’d like to compliment the posters, whether I agree or not. We e lost a disruptive, distracting element and can better address the diversity of opinions without the droning stupidity to dilute the overall mentality.

    1. There are a few new roaches in the Pit, but thankfully the bug spray (ignoring them) keeps them looking for food elsewhere most of the time …

  22. Good point Steele. Who knows because the circumstances of course would have been completely different. Maybe we would have been up by 20 with Alex and not had to play catch up. What I do think is if Alex had first and goal from the 7 yard line to win the Super Bowl, we would have been celebrating and the Niners would have been hoisting the Lombardi Trophy. That I do believe and have no doubt. But I know your a Kaep fan and I respect that. You’ve never wavered in your support for him and to that I say good for you. He had 2 good years playing on probably the best team in football. He was definitely a contributor to getting them to two CG’s and the SB, however, once that team was dismantled and became average, so did he. When the team continued it’s downward spiral and became lousy, so did he. That’s his history in a nutshell. That’s why he’s unemployed.
    I actually don’t blame him for the pitiful end of the SB though. I blame JH. He asked his QB to do something he wasn’t capable of doing. Not just once, but 3 times. Pass the ball accurately within a small compressed area. Unforgivable coaching mistake by JH. They had one of the greatest running backs in the history of the NFL and they never used him in those last 4 plays. Gore never touched the ball. Sad. Unbelievable really.

  23. Great rookie class and Kudos to John Lynch and Shanahan!

    I’m not sure if anyone here as read the book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. Gladwell basically says that with more reps, you become great. Lynch and Shanahan certainly seem to believe that and hence have made sure that rookies have as much exposure to live reps as possible.

    Grant – I remember you had graded C’s for most of the draft class in April. Will it be possible to do a grading of the 49ers’ 2017 draft stacked up against other good draft classes like Saints or Chicago?

  24. Yes, I am a kap fan, but I can honestly say I’m a big kap fan because of Alex Smith. To me, Alex left so much on the table. Take a sack, or throw out of bounds, when there are plays to be made. Heck he still does it. He has had a great year, but in the end, he will try to protect a lead, instead of going for the throat. I wanted someone who wasn’t scared to make the big play, scramble for the 1st instead of taking a sack, throw the ball down field more often instead of 1 second check downs. I got all of that in kap. But there was this hidden story behind man….. He actually couldn’t perform as a true QB. But mandid he light a fire under our butts for 2 years. Now it’s revisioned history. This time, we have Jimmy. Buttttttt, he is a real QB, and he does all the things kap did, but does them 100x better. To me, I’m looking at a QB that we haven’t had since Steve Young, a qb that every time he hits the field, you get that feeling in your soul, that we are going to win the game. Alex needs things around him to be perfect. This team isint perfect, and there is no way in hell we would have won the past 5 games with him at the helm. Case and point, we had 6 years of Alex with teams way more established. And he didn’t start to evolve until things got perfect with Harbaugh.

    1. Steelmatic

      I’m choking on coffee and your last statement…”6years of Alex with teams way more established” Ïf that were the case, (and it wasn’t) why did Alex have to endure 6 OCs in 6 consecutive years…? When Alex was drafted, the 49ers resembled more of a High school team than NFL. If you don’t believe that, check the Ws and Ls from 20005 to 2011. I used to read your stuff….

      1. Lol. I’ve shown many of those numbers as well as some others. If you disagree that the opponents were less formidable in the back half of the season despite looking at the facts that’s cool.

        1. If you disagree that the opponents were less formidable in the back half of the season despite looking at the facts

          No, but I’m not implying that was the reason for the Niners win streak like you are.

      2. I suppose the fact that Jimmy G had much less of an opportunity to learn the offense compared the other two QBs does not mitigate the effect of the perceived weakness of the opponents that Jimmy G faced?

        1. Blah. Too many variables at play in any team head-to-head match up. It only comes down to this team beat that team, everything else is either excuses or whining imo. SOS only figures in draft positioning.

          I’ve seen fans of teams make excuses because their team lost, this making excuses because their team won is a new thing on me. I’m not sure what, psychologically, is at play there.

          1. > I’m not sure what, psychologically, is at play there.
            My cursory diagnosis of his phenom is that two decades of being jerked around by Jed has left some fans burnt and suspicious, especially after the Harbaughcalypse. They do not trust their eyes and ears too far :) Their paranoia is a defense mechanism against future disappointments., IMO. These fans say: “The sample size is small…. The footwork is faulty and hence the lack of success of with deep throws.”. “Franchise tag his a$$ for a year or two while we fans dissect him under the microscope”, they insist.

            1. What was Parcell’s line? Something like: if you take the fans’ advice you’ll be sitting with them soon enough.

          2. I don’t think stating an observation that is statistically true ( the sos was weaker in the second half) is making excuses. It’s just adding info to the reasons why the 49ers finished so strong. It’s not the only reason and nobody has said that. Football isn’t a simple game to analyze. There is so much that goes into wins and losses in this league and it’s usually a number of factors that decide the outcome. That’s why a team can look bad one season and great the next or vice versa.

            As for why some fans don’t just jump on the bandwagon immediately and choose to take a more patient approach to how good the team can be, I can only speak for myself: Things in this game are rarely exactly as they appear at a given time. There are so many ebbs and flows based on so many possibilities I find it is always better to look at the team with a fresh set of eyes before every season and not to put too much credence into what happened the previous one. I’m optimistic and leave it at that for right now.

            1. The SOS was weaker in the second half is not a particularly compelling argument to me. ALL of those opposing teams were orders of magnitude better than the 1-10 Niners team that was scheduled to play them. Hell, even the Rams 2nd unit might have been competitive to a 1st half of the season Niners team. Outside of CHI I don’t think the Niners were, as a team, better than any of the teams they beat. It’s either a miracle they finished 5-0, or the team made incredible strides during that time, or JG really is Clark Kent/Superman’s younger brother. Maybe some combination of all of the above.

              1. As Harbaugh said, the opponent gets paid, too. The week after Niners beat the Bears, the latter thrashed the Bengals. The Niners beat the Jags convincingly — a team expected to go deep into the playoffs. So much for weak schedule. I don’t particularly care for parsing small data sets too finely, but Maiocco’s list is staggering in its consistency on on metrics. The Niners have risen to every challenge since Halloween. That’s a complete reversal of course of things.

              2. “The Niners beat the Jags convincingly — a team expected to go deep into the playoffs.”

                The Jaguars haven’t won a game on the west coast since 2005, were 1-3 vs the NFC West, and will be out of the playoffs either this weekend or next.

                If this seasons 49ers team had been in the AFC they probably would have finished with 8 or 9 wins.

          3. I’m with you on this Rib. SOS was weaker, yeah OK. But when we faced a decent Titans team, we won. When we faced a pretty good Jaguars team, we blew them out.

            Before those huge wins, people said sure we beat the Bears and Texans, but let’s wait until we play a good team like Tennessee or Jacksonville. After those huge wins, the opinions of Ten/Jax changed. All of the sudden Ten/Jax were overrated. Tennessee is garbage and Jacksonville beat themselves. The same Debbie downer’s applied their negative Nancy tactics to our opponents so they could diminish what we accomplished.

          1. Yeah, and that would leave out the OTAs and TC when the Shanny’s offensive concepts are taught and the base sets of plays installed and practised.

    1. “As it turns out, it seems that Belichick held on to Garoppolo as long as possible because he was a huge fan of his backup quarterback.”

      “Bill, beyond thinking this kid was a special football player, thought he was a special person,”

      This should be enough to debunk the conspiracy theory that Belichick didn’t want Garoppolo.

      Which is more likely?

      1. BB and the Pats were trying to sign JG to an extension. JG declined because he wanted to start. Then BB trades JG to the 49ers, doing his friend John a solid, and putting JG in a good situation.

      2. Or BB never wanted JG. But instead of trading JG to Cleveland for a 1st round pick and “fleecing” the team that fired him, he decided to take a 2nd round pick and “fleece” his friend.

      On behalf of almost every Niner fan, thanks for the franchise QB Mr. Belichick.

    2. “[Jimmy] just had command, he became a leader instantly,”
      Niners haven’t had a true leader on offense (the kind that a team can believe in and rally around) for a long time.
      Jimmy’s first loss may be revealing, but for now this has been a helluva fun ride.

    1. He needed to stay at USC for another year. Poor kid is looking like a possible bust unless he gets drafted by a team who has their QB position set already, at least for 2-3 years.

      1. You’re right MWD, but that’s the key to most quarterbacks coming out. Getting drafted by a team that has a good offensive structure in place, supported by a veteran quarterback. Darnold will make those “wow” throws, but he’s definitely a work in progress at this stage….

      2. While I agree he needs more development… If you’re considered a top 10 QB, you come out. The risks far outweigh the rewards of staying.

      1. Cleveland sports fans have nothing to complain about. They have pretty good basketball and baseball teams, 2 out of 3 aint bad, And as we all know, these things go in cycles.

    1. I don’t know #80, I have to applaud their sense of humor. What are they going to do? Sure beats raging on talk radio.

          1. There could be a 40-member street sweepers Drill Team. Also a Fan Platoon marching backwards to maintain a fine view of Last Place. A three-legged dog detail. A color guard with a Browns flag flying upside down. I’d expect participation from the Flat Earth Society and Climate Change Deniers as well.

  25. Is it possible that 5 quarterbacks go in the top ten?
    Darnold
    Rosen
    Mayfield
    Allen
    Rudolph

    The 49ers will be in the same position as the Bills were, with the possibility of another team becoming enamored with a quarterback like the Chiefs. The end result was another 1st and 3rd round pick….

      1. Browns, Giants, Broncos, and the Jets are all quarterback needy and drafting above the 49ers. Where it gets interesting is the Cardinals and Chargers also might be vying for that 5th quarterback, which could prompt them to make a move up to 9 or 10 if the 49ers are inclined to facilitate such a move….

          1. Yea, if we can recover another 2nd rounder, I’d be satisfied. That would mean we got Jimmy essentially free of charge.

  26. Off topic. Has there been a Kawakami sighting since he departed for The Athletic? Anyone here sign up for that service? Was that a career killer, or what?

    1. I for one always enjoyed reading Kawakami, I know some here do not like his style. I really cannot stand the over the top homer writers or for that matter radio stations (KNBR). On the other hand I have not signed up for the Athletic – yet.

  27. I actually joined and there is some really good writers with the athletic. Tim does a good job as well. I enjoy the articles at the athletic.

          1. “Sure, some will look at the Niners’ slate of opponents down the stretch and use that to discredit some of the steps forward that were taken. But again, the Niners were 1-10 and the type of team opponents were using to bolster their own rankings before Garoppolo took over.”

            STAT BEFORE JG (WEEKS 1-12) AFTER JG (WEEKS 13-17)
            Offensive yards/game 321.7 (21st in NFL) 410.0 (3rd in NFL)
            Points/game 17.0 (28th) 28.8 (5th)
            Yards/play 4.9 (24th) 6.1 (4th)
            Passing yards/game 221.8 (17th) 297 (3rd)
            Passing yards/att. 5.66 (29th) 8.44 (1st)
            Completion percentage 56.6 (31st) 67 (6th)
            Passer rating 72.6 (31st) 94.0 (11th)
            Total QBR 32.4 (28th) 80.0 (1st)
            Rushing yards/game 99.9 (23rd) 113.0 (16th)
            3rd-down conversion percentage 34.1 (26th) 50.0 (3rd)
            Offensive efficiency 20.88 (31st) 70.53 (4th)
            First downs/game 18.5 (T-22nd) 23.4 (2nd)
            Time of possession 27:36 (31st) 32:54 (3rd)
            Defensive yards allowed/game 374.2 (28th) 301.8 (7th)
            Defensive yards allowed/play 5.41 (18th) 4.96 (9th)
            Points allowed/game 25.82 (28th) 19.8 (T-9th)

            OK, so who was the tougher opponent b4 the CHI game?

            PHI- sure, better
            DAL- unfortunately, yes, better
            SEA 2nd game – yes, though you’ll need an * for the 1st SEA game with Hoyer, won’t you…
            ARI- no so fast…even match, certainly the 1st game,
            LAR- 1st game…even match
            NYG– no, the 5 JG games had tougher oppo’s, imagine what JG would’ve done to NY…
            IND– no, even match
            CAR- yes, better
            WAS – barely better than us at the time, CJ time, that is…

            1. That’s all subjective.

              Record of opponents games 1-8: 72-56

              Record of opponents games 9-16: 59-69

              Record of teams during 6-1 finish:
              51-61 ***11 wins from Rams who sat 17 starters***

              It’s not even really an argument that the schedule was weaker over the second half. Considerably.

    1. Yeah, does he make the vegan burger at Levis taste any better? If he does, I suggest that Paraag and Jed thrown in a li’l diner in Levis to Jimmy as part of the long term deal. Of course, it’d be named Jimmy G’s Spot…

    2. 49ers rushings yards/game prior to Jimmy G: 99.9

      49ers rushing yards/game after Jimmy G weeks 13-16: 96.5

      Against Rams B team in week 17: 172

      1. Jack who really cares? Seriously. You think these numbers matter? They don’t, all we care about is wins. I’m not sure if you are trying to look smart or what but your constant posting of number proves FA! Its about who won and who lost on Sunday.

        No one cares but the coaches and managers about the numbers and last time I looked, no one on a football blog works in those roles!

        1. Let’s see, the guy from ESPN, Maiocco, Barrows, and Branch all have written pieces about various stats since Sunday so there’s an audience for it.

          I bring them up because I find them interesting. If you don’t, tough. Don’t read them.

          1. Ball busting at its finest. In case you have not noticed, you are not Barrows, Maiacco or ESPN for that matter. Those outlets have substance, you don’t and this is a blog. Id like to see 10 people on here verify that they love your numbers that indiscreetly trash Shanny and Jimmy G which you don’t do so well.

            1. Don’t think I said I was anyone else, and quite frankly I don’t care. I’ll write whatever I feel like. Thanks for the concern though.

              1. That’s been proven impossible when reading the thread.
                You know me, I’m gonna call out the BS regardless.

          2. It always reminds me of the Samuel Clemens line. “Three kinds of lies: Lies, da**ed lies and statistics!”

            Oddly absent are RZ stats. I do have to admit that time of possession and 3rd down efficiency going up are huge. They help all the other categories.

          3. Read the piece. Seems we were gifted a quarterback due to the power dynamics in NE. It was a horrendously bad move by Kraft. It once again underscores why mighty men shouldn’t have people who don’t understand football in their midst.

            Also points out that Garoppolo had to learn on his own without TB help. The bit on TB12 and being shut out until staff intervened was telling.

            Another myth dispelled was the brilliance of the 49ers getting JG. He literally fell into our laps due to the discord in NE.

            It is clear that Belichick did not like the move and did it begrudgingly at the direction of Kraft.

            Also interesting that not all in NE think TB can play into his 40s and that he may unravel quick. The point on his getting the ball out early and laying out a teammate rather than take a hit was especially insightful as to some of the perception of TB among Belichick’s staff.

            It will be interesting how they address this bombshell. Reminds me a bit of the power struggle here during the JH era.

            *Oops this posted in the wrong spot and it is in relation to the ESPN article.

      2. 49ers rushings yards/game prior to Jimmy G: 99.9

        49ers rushing yards/game after Jimmy G weeks 13-16: 96.5

        Hammer weren’t you arguing in some other thread the team became a much more balanced attack after JG’s arrival?

            1. it certainly helped their cause, it being that run D in games 12 thru 16…
              wish we had a run game on offense to balance the O…

              1. retraction alert. last statement meant “our run D certainly helped our cause in games 12-16”.
                our run game, while having balance snaps-wise in the JG stretch, was never “yardage productive” at 3 pt. something, ypc.,
                purpose of those run snaps was to force tendencies from the oppo’s D…to set up next pass play…
                a chess game KS played…

              2. Of course. And he did it beautifully on that first series against Jacksonville. You could see it coming.

              3. hence along with other team improvements, KS & JG made each other better at their respective tasks…rather than a “chicken vs. egg” argument…

              4. It’s never been a chicken vs egg argument for me, because the change towards being balanced started following the second Arizona game which was before Garoppolo took over.

              5. yet the “balanced” run/pass approach didn’t actually pay dividends in the pass game till JG started…

              6. Nah, it paid dividens in the Giants game and helped give them the lead in the 2nd half the following week against Seattle.

              7. will need to remind you of a previous post about 2nd SEA game stats- not much run/pass balance in the last qtr. of 11/26 SEA game:

                three 4th qtr 9er possessions- CJ & JG combined:
                20 PA/14 completed (2 sacks in this #)
                1 run play (Hyde, stuffed)
                2 QB scrambles (sure, include these in run count)
                2 punts

              8. oh, and-
                in the 11/26 SEA game, 40 Pass snaps, 24 run snaps, and 3 sacks amongst pass snaps , not 2…
                don’t believe we ever had a lead in 11/26 SEA game…we had 6 pts. till JG got his 1st TD at end ‘o game…

  28. https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/1/4/16842156/jimmy-graham-free-agency-rumors-seahawks-49ers-red-zone

    I still think Graham makes sense if he can be had for the right price. He should be more successful with a pocket passer like Jimmy G (just like he was with Drew Brees), than with a sandlot player like Wilson (albeit an excellent sandlot player). And I very much think that our red zone problems would be substantially diminished. What kind of a deal – maybe 4 years at $8 million average with $13 million guaranteed. This locks us in for about two years (given that he is 31 years old).

    JG2JG for the TD.

    1. I’m totally guessing here but I think they are happy at the TE position especially after seeing what Kittle and Celek did in the passing game and what Hikutini did in the run game blocking.

      I think the red zone target becomes Courtland Sutton or another big bodied WR in the draft if Nelson is gone by pick #9/10.

      1. I’m starting to think they might go “edge rusher” with the first pick. Seems to be very hard to get those guys outside of the draft.

          1. Haven’t gotten that far yet. Just a general look at what the team needs and what isn’t realistically available in free agency is steering me towards thinking an edge rusher is the top need.

  29. This article by Bucky Brooks should get the Kirk Cousins is a top QB crowd riled up.

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000902822/article/why-redskins-should-let-kirk-cousins-walk-marvin-lewis-deal

    I completely agree with Brooks. Cousins is a good QB. But he needs a good team around him. Nothing wrong with that, most QBs do. But you don’t pay a QB like Cousins the same money (or more) than a guy like Rodgers unless you have the pieces around him or are happy to mire your franchise in mediocrity rather than risk some more down times while building a stronger overall roster and searching for the guy to lift the team.

    Cousins should go to a team that is only a QB away from being good. That isn’t the Redskins right now.

    1. I don’t disagree that Cousins isn’t worth 30 mill a year. He’s not, but that is the position the Skins put themselves in by the way they handled this. By refusing to commit to him earlier for whatever reason, they backed themselves into a corner and will likely have to let him walk. That is why I figured the Niners would have a good chance to sign him this offseason. He isn’t going to get 30 mill a year on the open market. He’ll likely get something in the range of what Carr and Stafford signed for.

      Bucky really blew up his argument in the first paragraph though:

      In a league where franchise quarterbacks, particularly those making $20 million-plus per year, are expected to carry their teams to the winner’s circle, I can understand why Jay Gruden and Co. are hitting Cousins with the old “HOP” (Hold on, playa!) label before cutting a check.

      That simply is nonsense. How many times in the last few years have Drew Brees or Phillip Rivers led their teams to the winners circle? How far did Stafford take the Lions this year? Eli Manning? This idea that QB’s making a certain amount of money are supposed to carry a team is a complete garbage. Every QB in this league has to have some level of talent around them to succeed and singling out Cousins as a guy who can’t get his team over the hump? Please. He played behind an Oline missing 4 starters at times this season, didn’t have his top receiving TE, lost the top two RB’s and was throwing to all new receivers. Still put up top ten numbers. He’s going to go to a place like Denver and kill it and then Brooks will be pretending he knew all along. It really is amazing how little respect a QB in the top ten for 3 straight seasons gets.

      1. The Broncos would be a perfect destination for him. Or the Bills. Or even the Dolphins, though that would be more about the coach than the team they would put around him. But the Broncos and Bills can provide the type of supporting cast he needs.

        Yes, every QB needs a decent supporting cast to be successful. The great ones can take a decent supporting cast to playoff wins, even SBs. Good QBs need a good supporting cast to be successful. That is Cousins, which places him ahead of most starting QBs.

      2. “I don’t disagree that Cousins isn’t………”
        Um……is that a triple negative….grammatical form?
        🤯

        1. Holy smokes you are right Brotha. That was a mess. That’s what happens when you are just typing with no regard for the language. I agree he is not worth 30 million would have sufficed.

    2. Scooter,

      A walk down memory lane for your early 2018 NFL Draft Day Primer….Keep in mind 6 of 10 Lynch/Shanny draftees are starters with one (TE Kittle) setting a modern day NFL record statistically.

      NFL draft: Five worst team classes of last five years
      Jim Reineking, USA TODAY Published 7:52 p.m. ET April 26, 2017 | Updated 8:08
      2. 2012 San Francisco 49ers
      Notable picks: WR A.J Jenkins (Round 1), RB LaMichael James (Round 2), G Joe Looney (Round 4)

      As much as the 49ers’ 2010 and 2011 draft classes helped the team reach Super Bowl XLVII, the 2012 draft class might be a big reason why the 49ers are picking second in this year’s draft. Jenkins has just 17 career receptions to his NFL ledger, but none of those came as a member of the 49ers. James has just 192 career yards rushing. Looney, meanwhile, is still in the league, but with the Cowboys.

      https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/04/26/nfl-draft-five-worst-team-classes-last-five-years/100589958/

      1. And, there’s always a competing point of view; this from ESPN:

        Stacking the worst classes in NFL draft history

        6. (tie) 2012 and 1977 San Francisco 49ers (5 AV)
        San Francisco’s recent woes can be traced back to its disastrous 2012 draft. First-round pick A.J. Jenkins appeared in only three games for the 49ers, dropping one pass and catching none before being traded away the following offseason. Running back LaMichael James was taken in the second round, but never developed into anything beyond a part-time returner and occasional backup to Frank Gore before being released one game into the 2014 season. Guard Joe Looney (fourth round) was the only other pick that year to catch on with the 49ers, starting four games in 2014 before moving on as a free agent.

        In 1977, the 49ers were only a few years from the start of a dynasty but first had to flush that year’s draft class out of their system. Without a first- or second-round pick thanks to the 1976 acquisition of Jim Plunkett from the Patriots, their top selection was third-round wide receiver Elmo Boyd, who started seven games for San Francisco before washing out in Green Bay. It’s always darkest before the dawn.

        http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/19092546/stacking-worst-classes-nfl-draft-history

  30. “Taking a look back on Elvis Dumervil’s impact as a pass-rusher within defensive coordinator Robert Saleh’s defense.

    John Lynch signed ex-teammate Elvis Dumervil, who stands at 6-0 and weighs 255 lbs., to a two-year deal worth $8 million (per OverTheCap.com), he expected him to contribute as a pass-rusher and be a mentor to the likes of DeForest Buckner, Arik Armstead, Solomon Thomas, and underachieving edge rusher Aaron Lynch.

    Pro Football Focus Grade: Dumervil as a situational (LEO) pass-rusher in Saleh’s scheme posted an overall grade of 76.1, pass rush grade of 79.0, run defense grade of 46.0, and a coverage grade of 60.4. Dumervil’s pass rush grade was the highest of any edge rusher on the team. Armstead was second at 76.3. In fact, the only other 49ers player that graded out higher than Dumervil was Buckner at 89.6.

    The bottom line on Dumervil

    Elvis was in the building when it came to providing a veteran presence in the locker room and mentoring his fellow teammates as aforementioned. And as far as production goes, the 33-year-old pass-rusher proved he can still not only be productive and effective, but he’s fully recovered from his Achilles heel injury. The question now is, does Dumervil have anything left in the tank for 2018?

    Here’s what he had to say about that:

    “From the top down, I think we all understand I have a lot in my tank,” Dumervil said, per the San Francisco Chronicle. “That’s not a question. I said this from the beginning: I didn’t come to San Francisco to just sail off into the sunset.”

    I wouldn’t bet against him making the team in ’18 and having a role similar to the one he had in 2017.
    http://www.49erswebzone.com/commentary/1773-looking-back-elvis-dumervils-impact-49ers-pass-rusher/

  31. Joshua Garnett discussed his changing body type for 2018
    By David Fucillo@davidfucillo Jan 4, 2018, 2:10pm PST

    The 49ers could end up adding Quenton Nelson or another guard via the draft, but they also can expect to get Joshua Garnett back also.

    Garnett’s injury did not need to be season-ending, but general manager John Lynch said the decision was to take a long-term approach in his rehab. Garnett is more of a power blocker, and the 49ers have moved to a zone-blocking scheme under Kyle Shanahan. The goal was to re-shape Garnett’s body, and get him ready to take full advantage of a starting opportunity in 2018….

    https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/1/4/16836476/joshua-garnett-body-type-49ers-offensive-line-depth-chart-2018

  32. http://www.49erswebzone.com/articles/113298-reuben-foster-makes-kipers-2017-nfl-all-rookie-team/

    “Foster played only 10 games, but he was a menace in the middle of the 49ers’ defense. He had seven tackles for loss and 72 total tackles. He was one of my favorite 2017 prospects and my top-ranked inside linebacker. He’s the reason the 49ers parted ways with longtime stalwart NaVorro Bowman earlier this season. Beckwith had a good year, but Foster played at an All-Pro level when he was on the field.”

    Yup, and with a bad ankle. He looked faster in the Carolina game.

    1. “Defensive end Solomon Thomas, who was selected with the third-overall pick…..failed to make the new list, which accounts for the whole season.”

      Wait. What? Just more proof that Kiper is an idiot. Doesn’t he see how good Thomas was all season?

    2. Foster 0.70 TFL/game — Everyone is on his knob. Fair enough, he’s damn good. Though there were a number of stupid rookie mistakes that got glossed over.

      Thomas 0.71TLF/game — Well, you know the story around here… Whipping boy because too many fans are too damn stupid and pissed off they didn’t get their draftee of choice to see how well he plays despite his rookie, correctable mistakes that have become their focus.

      It’s, literally, one of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen in 50-years of being a 49er fan.

  33. NFL mock draft 2018: Top players, projection for first round
    CBS Sports projection, 1 hour ago:

    1 Lamar Jackson Louisville QB
    2 Josh Rosen UCLA QB
    3 Courtland Sutton SMU WR
    4 Quenton Nelson Notre Dame G
    5 James Washington Oklahoma State WR
    6 Minkah Fitzpatrick Alabama CB
    7 Saquon Barkley Penn State RB
    8 Bradley Chubb NC State DE
    9 Sam Darnold USC QB
    10 Connor Williams Texas OT

  34. Prime, you are right once again. Take it from a long time coach. There is only one stat that matters. Wins and loses. Period. I’ll take a 1-0 win in softball where we were no hit, but we scored on run when one of my batters walked, was bunted to second, bunted to third, and scores on a wild pitch over a 10-8 loss where where we hit the ball all over the field but couldn’t get the other team out. The players stats in the win, for the most part, are gonna suck, and the stats for the loss, for the most part, are going to be good. Stats are deceiving, and can be misinterpreted easily. They usually are. Stats are just a tool, but certainly don’t tell the whole story, and certainly aren’t depended upon. JMHO ;>) You said it best. Who friggin cares???? I’ll give you a useless stat. Kaep had a 90 QBR last year, had 16 TD’s and only 4 INT’s. He was 1-10 and lost 9 games in a row. LOL!

    1. Yeah, Stats can mislead.

      I remember JG’s 92 game winning drive where folks around here used stats to say he wasn’t all that and a bag of chips.

      I stated the man just completed a 92 yard game winning drive, in hostile territory, with receivers he didn’t know, etc, etc,…what more do you want?

      Niners vs. Bears, JG’s 92 yard game winning drive:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQLNhkvs6-8

    2. Too many variables in football for stats to present a consistent argument or reasoning. Shanny has said this himself.

      These guys come on here thinking a stat is exact as a science. It’s not.

      It works in some sports, not football.

        1. Yeah if you cherry pick them to meet your agenda. But overall, it does not show definitive or consistent results. Again, too many variables involved in the game.

      1. Nobody who uses football stats thinks that. Only fools who want to criticize people who use football stats say that.

        We well understand statistical correlations. The best stats in football come in at 0.65 and lower. Many down at 0.40 and lower. With any that are 0.20 or lower being entirely worthless.

        All this criticism over stats is a product of anti-intellectual luddism of hide bound people who can’t get beyond 1935 stats. Has nothing to do with the people who use advanced stats.

      2. Stats don’t make the argument; they support it. They are used to fill information gaps between fact and fiction. Prime prefers fiction of his own making.

        1. This is very true rocket. There have been more times than I can count when I’ve not commented on something because I couldn’t find data to support it.

    1. That’s pretty cool Juan. I coached girls basketball one season, definitely helped me with communication. It’s a lot different dealing with girls than boys in football.

        1. It might be their undoing. As great as Montana was, the 49ers knew it could not last forever.
          Their mistake, our gain.

          1. Quite honestly, back in ’79 when Walsh drafted Joe is when I became a 49ers fan. When they traded him, it was like a kick in the gut. Like coming home to find your wife banging another man. It hurt really bad, and it pissed me off. Even though I understood it, it took a long time to get over it. To a lesser degree, I had the same emotions when Haley was traded, and when Eddie was forced out. So I completely understand the rock-n-hard place that Kraft found himself. No one ever said loyalty was logical, but it is commendable….

            1. You are right Razor. Very rare do we see loyalty in sports anymore.
              Brady is still playing at a high level but at the age of 40, it’s difficult to sustain it.

              I don’t think the Pats could have done anything else in the Brady/Jimmy G situation. The only other way would have been if they were losing and it was time to make a change.

      1. I can understand BB’s position.
        I can understand TB’s position.
        I can understand Kraft’s position. The buck stops somewhere, and to his credit, Kraft held something more dear than $$$. A not so small victory in contemporary culture in America; and useful for one Tom Brady. I suspect Kraft complimented B.B. for his instincts, but then over ruled.
        And then Lynch pulled the trigger, even though he had criticism here for not locking down a contract deal at the time. But for Lynch and JG, that might have been like the Eddie Haskell/Joe Isuzu car salesman who sez: Do you want to buy the car today? I gotta deal for you!

  35. http://www.49erswebzone.com/articles/113307-espn-details-massive-patriots-rift-jimmy-garoppolo-49ers/

    Belichick, who earlier passed on better deals than the one he got from the 49ers on October 30, didn’t want to trade Garoppolo, according to ESPN.

    “The Patriots repeatedly offered Garoppolo four-year contract extensions, in the $17-18 million range annually that would go higher if and when he succeeded Brady,” wrote Wickersham.

    A meeting in October between Belichick and Kraft to discuss the quarterback situation ended with a mandate to the head coach: Trade Garoppolo and find another potential replacement in the draft.

    “Belichick believed that Garoppolo would excel under Shanahan, and when he and Shanahan connected on the phone, Belichick offered the quarterback for a second-rounder.”

    1. #80 – Thanks for the link. Just got done reading direct piece, full of Garoppolo tidbits from Seth Wickersham – ESPN
      http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/page/hotread180105/beginning-end-new-england-patriots-robert-kraft-tom-brady-bill-belichick-internal-power-struggle

      “And complicating matters even more was that Belichick didn’t want to trade Garoppolo.”

      “”If we trade Jimmy, we’re the Cleveland Browns, with no succession plan,” one person inside the organization said earlier in the year. ”

      “The meeting ended with a clear mandate to Belichick: trade Garoppolo because he would not be in the team’s long-term plans, and then, once again, find the best quarterback in the draft and develop him. Belichick was furious and demoralized, according to friends. ”

      “Kyle, weeks into the 49ers job after being the offensive coordinator for the Falcons, met with Belichick for hours to learn from his team’s humiliating Super Bowl loss. ”

      “It (Garoppolo trade) was a steal, leaving Patriots staffers stunned and confused.”

      “He (Belichick ) has taken pride in Garoppolo’s 5-0 record in San Francisco — and in the fact that Kraft has confessed to people in the building that trading him might have been a mistake. “

      1. Thanks for that link Brodie. We were lucky to get JG. So many things had to line up perfectly. I get where Kraft and Brady are coming from, but you got to let Belichick make the call on the QB situation.

        Belichick being demoralized shows how highly he thinks of Garoppolo. It’s also good to read that Shanny was picking BB’s brain shortly after the SB. Kyle knows so much about the game, but he’s still looking to learn and get better.

        1. #80 – Absolutely. The best football minds (players, coaches) see things as an ongoing process. You hear Shanahan and Steve Young indicating that from time to time.

          I’ve been guardedly nervous about Garoppolo extending, but he has to be thrilled to be here. Gradually starting to feel more optimistic he’ll sign a new contract.

          I can understand Kevin Lynch wanting to see more long passes from Garoppolo before signing a new contract, but his college and Pats footage shows long passes. His arm is fine. I think its a matter of getting the timing down. I say sign Garoppolo as soon as he’s ready and willing.

          1. Yeah, it must be refreshing for Jimmy to get out of the toxic situation in NE. Brady’s trainer seems to be a snake oil salesman and perhaps a cult leader. Their locker room is divided. I bet Brady cringed every time his teammates cheered JG’s wins with us.

            1. 17 straight years of winning, 5 super bowls…. Yea very toxic. Our previous regime was the epitome of toxic. I’ll bet you trade one for the other. This all boils down to a penis wagging contest, 2 guys who will retire, and an owner who will be passing the ownership on to family in a couple of years. And just like our old ownership, the new group will come in and f it up by believing his way is better. Just like the York’s did. The dynamic is coming to an end, but because of old age, not because someone beat them out of it… Now, that’s a legacy…

              1. just wanted to say something real quick about the Pats and Brady and their coach. They have won a lot over the years (17) and won super bowls. Now i don’t know about other teams or how it was back in the day with teams but the Pats don’t deserve any credit because THEY GOT CAUGHT CHEATING NOT ONCE BUT TWICE. So who knows how long they were doing that for. Pete Rose is banned from baseball for gambling but nobody from the Pats is banned for cheating the game of football. The owner should of been removed not just fines/draft picks. Coach should of been banned it happen under his watch. The QB should of had a longer ban like 1 year or banned completely. look at the baseball players who used steroids and they are not in the hall of fame because they cheated but people say Brady is the GOAT and the coach is the best but nobody talks about how they cheated in football.

            2. I didn’t think this part of my comment would get so many responses.

              “Yeah, it must be refreshing for Jimmy to get out of the toxic situation in NE.”

              JG gets away from a diveded team and gets to start, it’s not a stretch to think he’s happy.

              Would I as a fan be happy with a toxic situation if it meant five rings? Of course, I never said otherwise.

              To those questioning how toxic the situation was, just reread the article. BB and Brady are having a power struggle, and the players are caught in the middle.

    2. I jsut read it this AM. It was a great read.

      Kraft ****ed up. What was written about Brady has, over the years, been talked about. He remembers exactly why he got the starting job (Bledsoe injury) and has never mentored a single one of his back-ups and would not release a single first-team rep with the offense during practice.

      He’s not the only great QB to do so. The article mentioned some of them. Us old guys knew that Montana stabbed Young in the back and lobbied for Bono to be his back-up instead. And, over the years, I’ve learned that Favre would have nothing to do with Rodgers.

      Anyway — 5 years, $125 milion at least $50 guaranteed with incentives for Pro Bowl and All-Pro.

      1. MosesZD – Good overall estimate.

        Two years franchise tag is over $50m (fully) guaranteed. I think it will take more guaranteed money (over $60m) to sign Garoppolo.

    3. So, “trouble in Camelot” really is a thing….

      Sounds like Belichick wanted Garoppolo to be successful not only for Jimmy’s sake, but also to help tighten the noose that Kraft had placed around his own neck…

    4. Yea but you are missing the part where it said that Jimmy turned down multiple offers to stay with that team… Jimmy wanted out, because he wanted to play. And i believe he didn’t care if Brady was gone, he wanted to go start his own legacy. I mean, follow Brady, or follow Alex,kap,hoyer, and CJ????

      1. again – you need to re-read the article……..it was a no-brainer Jimmy had to be out- but not only because he wanted to play………the money made more sense if he was out……

        “Garoppolo knew the time was coming when he would either be traded to a team that saw him as its starting quarterback, or that he’d hit free agency, where the only way the Patriots could keep him would be to franchise him at more than $23 million, fully guaranteed, for the 2018 season. Then in 2019 the process would repeat, only this time the franchise tag would be $28 million fully guaranteed. Why would Garoppolo take $18 million a year to remain Brady’s backup when he knew that the Patriots would have to pay him a lot more than that to keep him?”

        “Another important factor to consider in all this is that Yee represents both Garoppolo and Brady. Both of his clients are better off if they’re both starters than if they’re on the same team, where only one can start.”

        “Yee would have been doing a bad job representing both of his clients if he had urged Garoppolo to sign a team-friendly deal to stay in New England.”

        1. I did read the article, and that part about the money was the authors opinion. Not once did it say Jimmy turned down the offer because he wasn’t offered enough money… All that was author speak. Not once was Jimmy quoted as saying that

          1. you don’t need an author to tell you that……its freaking common sense

            Why would JimmG accept any offer lower than a franchise QB rate?…..when it was obvious he would get the opportunity to earn more……

    5. #80,

      Don’t believe everything you read. While I would guess there are some elements of truth in the story, the Patriots just completed a 13-3 season. We should all want that kind of turmoil. I guarantee they will now use this as motivation to go out and win #6 as if they needed any more of an edge.

      Where there is consistent success there are egos, and those egos will clash. That is just part of the deal, but the Pats have figured out a way to coexist and keep winning. The trade of JG was necessary simply because they weren’t going to be able to keep him. The choice was to move on from him, or cut ties with arguably the greatest QB in NFL history who is still playing at a high level. I’m not sure how Belichick really felt, but choosing Tom Brady is never a bad decision.

  36. My thoughts on the article above. Wow! Great work! Clearly had the ear of Garoppolo and Belichick. TB and Kraft both end up with egg on their faces after this bombshell.

  37. Stuff starting to make sense……Deep down JimmyG was playing well because he wanted to prove NE/Kraft/Brady they were wrong about him…..

    1. Ohhh, so the only reason he played well was to prove them wrong? Well that’s a relief to know, I would have thought he played well to make his teammates better, his team better, to make as much money as possible, oh and the big one, he played better to win games.

        1. “Jimmy g was playing well because he wanted to prove them wrong”. You didn’t say only, but it also wasn’t an open ended statement.

          1. making his teammates better was a result of him playing well…… its was easy to think the motivation for him playing well was because he wanted a new big contract or stay in SF……….but with this report ……its not far fetched to think the motivation could also be what happened in NE- trying to prove TB and Kraft missed out on his value….

  38. It’s only my opinion guys, but if Jimmy came out and performed like all of Brady’s other backups, this wouldn’t even be a story. The inner workings of that dynasty all came to a head because Jimmy was way better than anyone thought. I remember after the trade all the talking heads and even some of these know it all bloggers we’re saying, “he’s a patriot backup, None of those guys ever work out”. Well one finally worked out. The world finally has the ammunition to try and bring down that dynasty. Quiet as it’s kept, as much as the world hates on the pats, each and every fan would love to have 17 straight years of playoffs, 5 super bowls, and the continuous threat to become champion.

      1. Yea but Bill thought all his qb2’s we’re way better. And look how they performed. So it’s not like the league, or Kraft should have taken him at mouth value on one of his backup qb2’s

        1. where did you get BB thought that?…….this was the only backup that caused a conflict in the NE house……

          you need to re-read the article……

          1. My comment had nothing to do with the article, go back to every QB he either traded or was asked about when they signed with other teams. He said the same things to reporters and other teams when they asked his opinion. The only difference is Brady was still young so he wasn’t going to replace him, but they were all contingency plans in case he failed.

  39. I think it’s funny towards the end of the report, the author threw in, reports say Kraft felt he made a mistake by trading Jimmy… Hindsight, is a Mother….

  40. The head of the pats just denied the report. Of course they would. But I also think this story just gave them ultimate bulletin board material.. Pat’s will win the Chip this year.. my opinion

  41. Are you folks falling for the New England Soap Opera?
    The 45th Occupant called his three buddies and asked them to create a diversion to distract his fake media critics.

    1. So what is the bigger bombshell: The Pats have clashing egos or the book about Trump being released today that depicts him as a moron his aides are trying to babysit?

  42. just wanted to say something real quick about the Pats and Brady and their coach. They have won a lot over the years (17) and won super bowls. Now i don’t know about other teams or how it was back in the day with teams but the Pats don’t deserve any credit because THEY GOT CAUGHT CHEATING NOT ONCE BUT TWICE. So who knows how long they were doing that for. Pete Rose is banned from baseball for gambling but nobody from the Pats is banned for cheating the game of football. The owner should of been removed not just fines/draft picks. Coach should of been banned it happen under his watch. The QB should of had a longer ban like 1 year or banned completely. look at the baseball players who used steroids and they are not in the hall of fame because they cheated but people say Brady is the GOAT and the coach is the best but nobody talks about how they cheated in football.

  43. There wasn’t really anything in the ESPN article that hasn’t been covered for the better part of a month by a local guy who used to work for the Eagles, writes for the athletic and does a daily periscope show.

    I’d put $100 down in Vegas that Belichick walks after this season.

    1. I’ll agree with that. It’s also a good way to make sure Josh McDaniels takes over the rains, and doesn’t leave for another position.

    2. “I’d put $100 down in Vegas that Belichick walks after this season.”

      I was thinking the same thing, if the current story proves to be correct that is.

      1. now this is odd, for JH that is….from the article that “blows many holes in the arguments”

        “According to someone who knows him well, Harbaugh has “figured out how to not be liked and how to function. It’s been a strength his entire life. If he’s going against you, he hates you.”

        “That explains why Harbaugh, after taking over at Stanford, took dead aim at Pete Carroll and USC. But a few 49ers staffers think the absence of that hate may have played a part in why the 49ers lost the Super Bowl to the Ravens and his older brother, John, in 2013. The one moment when Harbaugh couldn’t hate his opponent coincided with the biggest game of his life. Before kickoff, the brothers chatted at midfield. As they shook hands to part ways, Jim pivoted away, his warrior instincts kicking in. But John, realizing the gravity of the moment, grabbed his younger brother’s wrist and literally pulled him in for a hug. “I love you,” John said. “Be good today.”
        “OK,” Jim said, giving a one-armed pat. He left and didn’t look back.
        Not a week passes in the 49ers facility without someone reliving the strange play calling in the fourth quarter of that game. Some on the team later wondered if Jim was thrown off his game because John had confronted his younger brother with something he had no defense for: an act of love.”

  44. lets talk about JG and 49ers. I really want to ask this question. if Kirk doesn’t get tagged, and JG signs his franchise tag before free agency opens which he probably will 24 million reasons too. JG played well and won games for us and against some good teams but would you turn down a trade of JG to any QB team in need for a first round pick this year (say in the top 10) and with other picks in the later rounds or next year and be able to sign Kirk to a deal? So you get another first round pick this year along with our current pick and still be able to sign a good QB. mind you that Kirk has played on bad teams and still produced and has been a top QB and has more games played the JG and knows the 49ers system and is better than Hoyer. of course a lot can happen and but why wouldn’t yo do this deal. You get a QB that you will pay probably the same for as JG, you will have 2 top ten picks get the CB/pass rusher/RB/WR/ best combo and along with cap space for free agency to sign players.

    1. Cousins will never be a 49er……..”forget about it”

      we deserve better than a mediocre QB……all stats and no wins

      we have our QB = JimmyG for years to come

    2. Kirk probably has played on bad overall teams, but he has had good offensive talent around him… No way Kirk comes here and wins those 5 games with this team. Only fans have been enamored with Kirk. Not the gm and hc. Of course he knows Kyle’s system, but would he do better than Jimmy, who really hasn’t even mastered it yet? My opinion, hell no… You don’t trade a piece of platinum on hope that u might pick up something better.. And you really don’t swap out platinum for Silver…

      1. Thats a good way of looking at it. Kirk had DJ and PC which is playing for the 49ers but was injured and Hyde is better than any RB redskins had. O-line could be about same maybe they had a better one. So the question would really come down to is in my Scenario for next year whoever they sign and draft but with and extra first round draft pick and may more picks in 18 draft who would win more games JG or Kirk on the same salary.

    3. Niner,

      If a team came offering a high first round pick and I knew I could sign Cousins for a similar amount, it would be a no brainer. I’d make the deal in a heartbeat, but that won’t happen. The Niners love JG and are solely focused on getting him signed long term. Either way we win because we have an answer at the QB position.

  45. So you think JG is better than Kirk because he has won only 7 games and Kirk has won more and played in more games than JG? I don’t think Kirk is elite and he pretty much is a middle of the road QB but what is JG then. Yes we deserve better but we are not getting Rogers or the next Elway in the draft any time soon. So why not get the same type of QB for almost the same pay but with more blue chip star talent on the team via the draft for next year.

    1. I don’t think Kirk is the same type of QB.. How many players has he made better? How many oline and dline guys on the skins clamoring for this dude? When was the last time you heard the coach and gm go to bat for Kirk? Actually mccloughan said it best, in order for Kirk to be good, he needs everything around him to be good. Nothing on the 49ers offense says perfect, and good. It’s an average offense that Jimmy helped make good. Kirk has hit his ceiling. That’s trading down, not on par…

      1. but if hes already reached his peek and needs everything around him to be good and he comes to SF with the right coach and hopefully better layers added why wouldn’t he be any good or better than JG? Like you said you already know what your getting with Kirk and he has already made lots of money but you don’t really know just yet with JG because of the number of games played and he hasn’t made that much money yet. Some QB start making money and also other players and they start to not play well.

        1. Because this man flourished in a losing environment, without any real elements. Put his team on his back, made them believe they were winners . He lifted an Organization in half a year. You don’t walk away from that. You keep the train moving. The only thing Kirk makes better is anything to do with Kirk. I don’t care if we were offered 2 1t rounders, it’s not worth it.

      2. Steelematic,

        That simply isn’t true. Cousins had a terrible situation to play through this year and still put up top ten numbers as he has for the past 3 years. As I said in an earlier post to Scooter, it amazes me at how little respect this guy gets when he has played at a top ten level since he became the full time starter. Saying he needs the perfect situation around him is lazy and inaccurate. He hasn’t been in a great situation in DC and has still performed. If people want to judge him on wins and losses then I give you Drew Brees the past few years before this one and Phillip Rivers for most of his career. QB’s can’t do it by themselves.

        I have no doubt Cousins would thrive in SF in Shanahan’s system because he’s already thrived in Washington in the same type of offense. In saying that, I’m also happy with Garoppolo and hope they can sign him long term because he appears to be a great fit for the system also.

        1. Rocket, the only terrible part of that situation is him and the fo disagreeing on a contract. That man had offensive weapons at the beginning of the year. It’s why they were picked either 1st or 2nd to win the east. How is it lazy and inaccurate when it came from Mccloughan. Not me. Mccloughan built 3 playoff teams and your calling him lazy and inaccurate

          1. What weapons? They lost his top two WR’s to FA and the top guy they signed to replace them was a complete washout. Look at the great situation he had this year:

            Lost both starters at WR from the previous year and didn’t have his #1 target at TE for most of the season.

            Played with backup RB’s when the top two on the depth chart went down with injury

            Played multiple games with 3-4 starters on the OL out due to injury

            Has had a bottom of the league defense supporting him his entire time as the starter

            I’d have to look up the exact quote from McCloughan you are referencing to get the context, but if he truly said Cousins needs everything around him to be good to succeed, then he’s already been proven wrong on that. QB’s can not do it alone. It’s been proven time and time again no matter who it is.

              1. A good QB who needs to be surrounded by equally good talent.. as u say he was not surrounded by equally good talent because of injuries, just like us. And the man failed. But Scott has been proven wrong?

              2. How did he fail? I just told you the situation he faced this season which was clearly not conducive to winning a lot of games and making the playoffs, yet he still finished top ten in the league. Stop basing everything on the amount of games the Skins won because it’s a bad argument.

            1. Look at the numbers for goodness sake. Cousins has been a top ten producer for the past 3 years. If you are solely going to rank him based on the amount of wins then you are fooling yourself because a lot of top QB’s haven’t won as much as he has over the past 3 years.

              1. I don’t think he’s saying what you think he’s saying either:

                His ceiling is where it’s at right now,” McCloughan told hosts Grant Paulsen and Danny Rouhier. “He’s a good player who has proven he can win a division and that’s hard to find — and a chance for two years in a row to go to the playoffs. That’s what you’re looking for.”

                He was referring to the team you can put around him if you pay him a massive amount of money and that is always a factor to keep in mind. However, this is on the Skins for not offering him a deal that was based on him being a top half of the league starter which he clearly is. They tried to low ball him and he called them on it. Now he could be an UFA able to choose where he wants to play for 25+ mill a year and the Skins have nothing behind him at the position.

              2. wtf……name these top QB’s who haven’t won ?

                Cousins sucks…..you can argue as much as you want……its been stated over and over – he has the stats but not the wins…..

                ..yes we know only about the numbers……….we are waiting for the numbers that count….the WINS

                Cousins will never be a top 10 QB in the NFL………..please stop with excuses

              3. This article is a couple of years old but the info is still relevant in detailing why rating a QB by won loss record is a bad idea.

                http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000562972/article/qb-index-why-winloss-record-is-overrated

                wtf……name these top QB’s who haven’t won ?

                Drew Brees and the Saints were 7-9 for the past 3 seasons before this one.

                Phillip Rivers and the Chargers won a total of 9 games the previous two seasons to this one and haven’t made the playoffs in years.

                Matt Stafford hasn’t made the playoffs the past two years winning a total of 16 games

                If you actually take the time to look you’ll see that Cousins has won at a similar rate to a lot of the so called best QB’s in the league. You just choose to ignore it in favor of your confirmation bias. That happens a lot on this board.

              4. “Look at the numbers for goodness sake”

                That’s your problem. You look at a stat line and think it’s definite.
                It’s not. It is about wins and losses and how well that QB elevates the play of others around him.
                There is no stat to show that. But what Jimmy G has done in 5 weeks in SF is what matters.
                You clearly don’t know the game very well. You are a box score guy.

              5. Prime I just provided clear information on why rating QB’s by wins and losses is stupid, and yet right after that you post this. Unbelievable…actually strike that it is very believable considering your inability to deal with facts instead of your erroneous beliefs.

        2. Rocket, it’s also like I said earlier, if he was traded here instead of Jimmy, then no way we win those 5 games. Jimmy came to the graveyard.. And look at the final product. I’m not saying Kirk is bad, I’m saying I wouldn’t take him over Jimmy, hell I wouldn’t take him over Drew and Phillip either. You say nobody does it alone, you are correct. But what Jimmy had to work with, Kirk couldn’t have done it with them either..

          1. I couldn’t disagree more because Cousins has won games with the same level of talent that Garoppolo did over the course of these 5 games. Jamison Crowder was the Redskins leading receiver this year. That’s all you need to know regarding the level of talent around Cousins this season.

        3. Thats sounds about right. Theirs really no issue with JG aside from not really playing much and hes better than what we have seen in the last few years but what if the niners were given that choice to get 2 close qbs maybe JG is better but they are close to each other for about the same price and also be able to get more talent in the process and still have a above average QB in kirk

  46. “. On the flip side, it also shows how good of a decision it was to pursue Kyle Shanahan, because had Kyle Shanahan not been with the team, this may not have happened”

    “A lot have speculated the Garoppolo steal was because of Belichick looking out for John Lynch, a former player. This may be on Shanahan for a “thank you” to his dad for looking out.”

    where are the Jed haters?

  47. Trading JG and then trying to sign KC makes no sense on so many levels.
    1. Jimmy appears to be better than Kirk;
    2. You trade JG, there is no guarantee you will sign KC;
    3. You sign KC before you trade JG and your trade leverage drops like a rock;
    4. The players love Jimmy’s play and play hard for him, why risk that?
    5. Fan base would go nuts;
    6. The purpose is to get a high draft choice or two; i.e. trade to Cleveland. Why do some many fans think draft choices are always better than the players they have or proven players? There is not one QB in the draft I would trade for JG. Why? Because we know he can play at a high level in the NFL while some believe a draft choice might be able to.

    1. Yes a lot would need to happen so JG signs gets traded then sign Kirk because Im sure he would know of whats going on in this Scenario. Jimmy appears to be better based on what 5 games no or he came from the Pats no. Players could love him but football is about business and winning. Their isn’t a QB i would draft either if my choice was JG or Kirk. i want other start players that could help right away. You can’t get caught up in hes won 5 games for us and people think hes going to be a hero. Need to think about the future. Also most of the players in the draft are better than the players we have on the team like CB, RB, WR, OL, pass rush we can use all of that for next year

      1. “the NFL is about business and winning” but your proposing a deal to get rid of the man who just helped them build up their NFL business. Oh and he did a little winning as well

        1. Jimmy has the quickest, most compact release since Marino, with the accuracy of Kosar. The windows he’s been throwing through can’t get any tighter. It’s indefensible. His leadership, charisma and moxie seem by all accounts to be at the highest level as well. Good luck finding another one like him. After suffering in quarterback hell for the last 20 years, why would you risk getting sent back? What is a true franchise quarterback worth to you? Do you think BB takes that call on a 26 year old Tom Brady?

          1. Brady had already won a SB at 26. Jimmy has won some games at the end of a loss season. I like Jimmy a lot and hope he signs long term, but some of you have gone completely off the rails here in your admiration and expectations.

            1. My admiration on a hell of a QB is ideal, but my expectations is nothing more than for him to come out and compete. Your saying our admiration is off the rails, but you would trade him for a 1sr rounder and Kirk cousins? Now who’s admiration is off the rails?

              1. Your expectations are well beyond him coming out and competing. You have already decided he is way better than a guy who has performed at a top ten level for 3 years. I’m sure a lot of people would trade Jimmy for a high first round pick and a top ten QB. You should probably rethink your view on that from an objective perspective.

              2. Rocket your the last guy who should be predicting NFL QB’s ceilings.
                Your track record speaks for itself!

              3. yes a lot of people would probably all 32 teams trade JG because they want to bulid a team for the future while still trying to win today, get first round this year and next year along with 3 and 4 this year and sign Kirk. Lets say Browns did it and gave both their first round picks this year. 49ers would have 3 top ten picks this year, and a top 10 QB, who wouldn’t make that trade. I would make that trade right away. plus you don’t know JG he could ask for 35 million a year and that could be from any team. I wonder if JG was traded to the Browns from the Pats would he have done the same with the browns with who have better WRS and O-line then we do.

              4. K. Cousins is not a top 10 QB…….its funny how those that claim he is never show us a list……please stop with the nonsense…….

              5. K. Cousins is not a top 10 QB…….its funny how those that claim he is never show us a list……please stop with the nonsense…….

                Kirk Cousins 2015 – 10th overall in yardage, 8th in YPA, Tied for 12th in TD passes, 5th overall in QB rating

                Kirk Cousins 2016 – 3rd in yardage, 3rd in YPA, 13th in TD passes, 7th in QB rating.

                Kirk Cousins 2017 – 7th in yardage, 9th in YPA, 8th in TD passes, 12th in QB rating.

                This isn’t hard to find. You are either lazy or just prefer to spout nonsense.

              1. No sh*t. It was a scenario raised just asking the question. He can be traded once the new league year starts, but as I said, it’s not going to happen.

            2. Yet the Rams gave up a first and two seconds in 2016 and a first and a third in 2017 for Goff. Last I heard, he hasn’t won one either.

              1. cmon….Goff 2yrs in the league…..and how many years for Cousins who was a backup

                that was a silly comparison…..

                and comparing upside……you really want to compare Goff with Cousins……smh…seriously dude

              2. Razor-Do you think BB takes that call on a 26 year old Tom Brady?
                Rocket-Brady had already won a SB at 26.
                Razor-The Rams gave up a first and two seconds in 2016 and a first and a third in 2017 for Goff, who hasn’t won a SB either. Garoppolo’s a much rarer talent than Goff and to me, worth more than three 1st round picks.

              3. On the Crazy Train? There’s still room in the caboose for you, Rocket. Like I said, his release is like Marino, and accuracy is like Kosar. You call it hype, I call it an endangered species….

              4. I like JG. I think they should try and sign him to a long term deal. I’m just not at the point where I’m going to compare him to historically great QB’s after 7 starts. He’s obviously a very good talent who could be a special player, but there have been a lot of QB’s who fit that description that haven’t panned out once they played for awhile. So far so good and I’m definitely optimistic but I always let things play out before drawing conclusions.

    1. Same here razor. You just don’t trade a guy you think is your franchise QB when you don’t have a replacement.

  48. after the show we’ve seen since the end of the last SEA game thru till the lambs game, I’d say the SS Cousins has well and truly sailed– assuming JL, Yee, and JG reach a deal…
    Kyle’s already schemed up his offense that’s adjusted to JG’s strengths, the team’s weaknesses, and done so pretty amazingly

    1. Interested to see his coaching staff. He’s been free these last few weeks to contact Asst Coaches and co-ordinators to gauge their interest. It’s not tampering because he’s not in the league, until Tuesday.

        1. Ten years, Jack? For a guy who hasn’t coached an NFL team in almost ten years? Good thing we didn’t give Chip Kelly that kind of a deal when the team was at the bottom; because it seems like it’s desperate teams that give out these kinds of deals for new head coaches.

          1. The Raiders ARE desperate. I doubt that anyone there expects Gruden to be a Raider in 2028.

            It’s a $100mil deal. The talk was Gruden would get an ownership stake. They realized the owners wouldn’t approve that so they jacked up the money, and this allows Davis the ability to spread the payments out a bit.

            1. since Al D. and Bruce Allen are out of the picture, and Reggie’s no fool, he may very well do good.
              will be worth watching how Carr & Gru navigate around one another- and how Derek’s bro will weigh in…

    2. It’s quite a commitment but with the vault of cash awaiting them in Vegas they can afford it. This is pretty much a lifetime contract that is given to somebody who the owner wants to be with the organization forever. Mark Davis apparently has tried to get Gruden to come back to the Raiders since Al passed away and finally got his wish. Now it is about whether Gruden truly wants to Coach or just got an offer he couldn’t refuse. If he’s really committed to Coaching, it could be successful given he’s spent years with different offensive minds and picking their brains. It also appears he’s putting together a pretty good staff. If this is a case of not being able to turn down the money however, it could go sideways pretty quickly because the expectations for this team just increased dramatically and if Chucky doesn’t have his heart completely in it, it could get ugly.

  49. On Rotoworld:

    “Kirk Cousins said he would sign his tender if the Redskins assign him the franchise tag in 2018.

    “I need to work, I need to get better,” said Cousins. “I’m okay with the one-year deal. It doesn’t scare me a lot.” Cousins has played under the franchise tag each of the last two seasons and seems content to keep going year-to-year with his contract. If the Redskins were to slap the franchise tag on Cousins for a third time, the quarterback would earn a whopping $34.47 million in 2018. Even if the Redskins had the cap space, it’s unlikely they’d sink that much money into a quarterback turning 30 who has never even won a playoff game. As he has the last two offseasons, Cousins will again be the talk of free agency.”

  50. The numbers …..

    K Cousins – stats that matter

    6 years in the league

    G – 62
    GS – 57
    W-L – 26-30-1
    Comp – 1372
    Att – 2096
    Comp% – 65.5

    f…kin mediocre……..65.5% what a joke….

    1. If that is how you are going to rank QB’s then a lot of great QB’s suck according to you.

      As the fulltime starter Cousins is 24-23-1 making the playoffs once the past 3 years which is better than a lot of QB’s you think are superior.

      1. Oneniner values his opinion of the player over that of Full Shanny. Forgive me if I defer to their assessments. To be clear, I would take Jimmy over Captain Kirk everyday and twice on Sundays….

        1. if Shanny liked him that much – no reason he couldn’t wait and sign him in the offseason and still keep our 2nd rd pick……

          you really don’t expect Kyle to be as honest as i am when it comes to cousins……

          1. He couldn’t be sure if Cousins would be available. It’s not that hard to figure out. He had a chance to secure a QB he liked and he did it.

            1. Talent level between Cousins and Garoppolo to me is big, and then you factor in age. It’s a no brainer. Shanny to Kirk, nothing personal, just business.

              1. You are entitled to your opinion Razor. The info we have to go on don’t back that up however. There is a 3 year age difference and Cousins has spent those 3 years playing. You and I both know Shanny was interested in Cousins. He also like Garoppolo and had a chance to get him. I didn’t like the trade at the time but it looks good now.

            2. We already have evidence that JG’s intangible and tangible qualities led to victories for our subpar team (as we all know, the team is undefeated with him). Obviously that evidence does not exist for Cousins. Bird in the hand…..

      2. @Rocket – show me the list

        show me the top 10 QB list…….show me the list of QB’s Cousins is better than…..

        I just find it funny when it comes to Cousins…..lots of hot air no backup…….

        and I know you have the knowledge or how to…..I have seen your posts…….”show me the data”….

        what are you selling?….:)

        1. I just did above and the only hot air on here is from you and Prime and your refusal to accept facts over your preconceived opinion based on nothing. Here it is again seeing as you’re too lazy or are just too afraid to accept you are wrong:

          Kirk Cousins 2015 – 10th overall in yardage, 8th in YPA, Tied for 12th in TD passes, 5th overall in QB rating

          Kirk Cousins 2016 – 3rd in yardage, 3rd in YPA, 13th in TD passes, 7th in QB rating.

          Kirk Cousins 2017 – 7th in yardage, 9th in YPA, 8th in TD passes, 12th in QB rating.

          1. those are not bad numbers. Im not sure why lots of hate on Kirk he ain’t the best but hes not the worse and not his fault that the redskins tagged him twice and paid him lots of money and are probably going to again, that’s just the NFL and QBS. What about if the new GM of the colts called you up and said you can have Andrew Luck, give up JG and we give you our first and you send back your second round pick this year. So Luck and first round this year from colts for JG and second round pick? or not for JG just picks, that 49ers would have especially if they trade JG

          2. its about wins bro…….WE all know about the stats…..that’s why we call him a statistician

            you keep repeating it, as if we don’t know…….lets focus on the games he has won……

            1. No it isn’t about wins. Wins are a team stat which you don’t seem to be able to comprehend. I also just provided you with clear evidence that Cousins has been a top ten QB when you were spouting off that nobody has provided that. You need to focus on your knowledge or lack there of regarding the game of Football.

              1. yea…I fell for that b.s when the we won the popular vote….but it still comes down to the electorate ………same thing here

                Cousins gets the popular vote….but the one that matters he keeps losing/

            2. Also remember this when the trade happen for JG I forget how long after it was said from our GM Lynch that this move was a situation to where they could use JG as bait for the off season. of course he took those words back because hes a rookie GM but he must of been thinking the same-thing about trading JG to get more value. maybe now that could be different because he has won 5 games but we will soon fine out.

          3. ha ha….is that your list….lol

            cmon rockkkeeet……

            let me give you a list you don’t want to see

            Brady
            Brees
            Newton
            Wilson
            Rivers
            Stafford
            Ryan
            Rodgers
            Roethlisberger
            Keenum

            Manning
            Alex
            Wentz
            Goff
            Carr
            Mariota
            Flacco
            Winston
            Prescott
            Watson

            now you can start talking about your cousin……

              1. Geezus I provided you with his numbers the past 3 years that are superior to more than half of the players on that list and you still can’t accept it. Most of the QB’s on that list haven’t won anymore than Cousins has the past 3 years What are you basing this on other than your non factual opinion?

  51. Rocket my man, I’ll just finish like this, you can have Kirk, I’ll take Jimmy, any day of the year. Even using a roulette wheel.. You gave some stout numbers, but that’s like saying you would take Alex Smith over Jimmy and Kirk. Because his numbers have been top 10 the past 3 years. But like I said, Jimmy all the way!!!

    1. No problem Steel, but it’s not the same. Alex has traditionally been in the bottom third of the league in most categories before this season, but his team won so you think he’s actually been better than he has. That’s the problem with rating QB’s based on wins alone. It’s the ultimate team sport and it’s the team that wins or loses, not just the QB.

      1. lol……what a bunch of horse sh@t……The only two people in the NFL who gets judged on W and L are the QB and Coaches…….pretending this is news to you is appalling…..

        They put the W and L on their resumes……

        So let me guess when the Roger, Manning, Brady wants to get paid – they says hmm….let the team decide what i should be paid……not my W or L……..lol

  52. lol……what a bunch of horse sh@t

    That sums up most of what you have said here today. If you rate a QB on wins and losses alone then you are saying Drew Brees was a lousy QB the 3 seasons prior to this one and many others were bad simply based on the fact the teams they played for sucked. It’s just a moronic view point that has nothing to do with how wins and losses occur in a team sport.

    1. cmon rocket…..you know exactly what i mean……….there is a reason keenum is the starting QB……..he won and kept his job…….

      its all about winning……..if it wasn’t Hoyer will still be the 49er QB

      1. Your point makes no sense. Phillip Rivers hasn’t won regularly in a long time so how does he keep his job? Matt Stafford has been to the playoffs once and lost, how does he keep his job never mind sign for 25 mill a year. Keenum has played well after floating around the league for a decade. He’s kept his job, but that team is winning because of a great defense along with an offense that is protecting the football. If Cousins had a defense like Minny’s we wouldn’t be having this discussion because the Skins would be in the playoffs.

        1. You can give all the excuses you want……the doubt in him is real

          When you pay a QB $30M a year and still expected to spend big money on a big chunk of the team then there is a problem….

          My point is the amount of praise you heap on Cousins should be directed to a QB that can win with a mediocre team……cousins does not deserve that kind of praise or $$$…..he lacks the IT to take an average team and make them champions…..

          The redskins would be dumb to invest much cash on the one position that requires no doubt…….after 6 yrs on the same team there is doubt……i didn’t make that up ….its a fact…..

          I base all I know from the games I have watched…..he can play….he his ok……but he is not going to be the MVP on any team

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