Does Graham’s deal affect Davis’ holdout?

The Saints signed tight end Jimmy Graham Tuesday morning to a four-year, $40 million contract, $21 million guaranteed.

What effect, if any, do you expect Graham’s deal to have on Vernon Davis’ holdout?

  1. Why are we still calling Davis’s situation a “hold out?” When he said it wasn’t the end of the world if something didn’t get done(subsequently relinquishing the albeit small amount of leverage he had in the situation) that was the end of whatever “hold out” he was a part of.

    1. Why are we still calling Davis’s situation a “hold out?

      It will probably be still called a holdout until he reports to the team Coffee.

        1. Davis is a team distraction and the last thing the 9ers need!! At 30 Y/O, his best days are behind him, add to that the 9ers finally have the receivers you would expect on a contender for a Super Bowl team!! It adds up to
          him being less productive and based on his production,
          over paid!! “IF” the 9ers cut him (not saying they will,
          just IF), would he be forced to take a cut in pay, to be
          signed by another team?

          1. IF” the 9ers cut him (not saying they will,
            just IF), would he be forced to take a cut in pay, to be
            signed by another team?

            Uh, no he wouldn’t.

            1. @ MWD: “uh, no it wouldn’t.” is a little short on
              evidence!! Why do you think he’s worth more
              than the 9ers are already ((OVERPAYING)) him?

            2. I won’t try to speak for Mid, but Davis would get more from another team simply because they would pay him more than he’ll make in base salary this year and next from the Niners. The Niners have paid him a lot of money upfront; a new team is starting from scratch with him.

              1. Correct, plus there would be a plethora of teams willing to sign Davis if he was cut: teams such as the Dolphins, Jets, Texans, Chiefs, Raiders, Redskins, Giants, Packers, Vikings, Falcons, Cardinals, Rams, and even the Seahawks if they really want to stick it to the 49ers. It would be an all-out bidding war in order to get Davis.

              2. @ Rocket: Agreed, you make a valid point!
                his $4.7 M base this year would make him
                attractive! However, if he holds out, he will be
                an unwanted distraction and the 9ers could
                use that money to resign both Crabs and Iupati.
                Both valuable players to the 9ers long term
                success!

              3. However, if he holds out, he will be
                an unwanted distraction and the 9ers could
                use that money to resign both Crabs and Iupati.

                How will you get Crabtree or Iupati to take less than what they will most likely get as unrestricted free agents after this season?

      1. I hear you Grant but in a negotiation when one party suddenly says “I don’t really expect to get anything I’m asking for” that pretty much neuters his position on the subject. How can he possibly justify missing any time when he’s already accepted that he probably wont get a new deal? And justification to the public is only the cosmetic part, he still has absolutely no leverage now with the other party in the negotiation. Knowing that he’s already accepted his fate isn’t going to make the team cave if he dumbfoundingly decides to sit out a game or two.

      2. Grant: How many teams have the cap space to sign
        Davis’s $ 4.7 M base salary, let alone get into a bidding
        war trying to match Graham new salary? Just curious

        1. That’s not the only thing that needs to be taken into consideration G9er. How many teams are willing to free up some cap space in order sign Davis, and how many may actually be willing to go over the cap just to get a Pro Bowl TE?

  2. I’m not sure exactly what it does for his holdout in reality. it technically improves his case somewhat. On the other hand Davis is older and has a couple years left on his contract. At the end of the day he obviously wants a raise but I think the bigger thing for him is an extension before his skills decline. Retiring as a niner is important for him (personally and for his brand). Can’t believe I just said his brand. Oh well.

  3. Elliot Harrison of NFL network puts out a yearly NFL head coach power ratings and this years ratings came out this morn.
    #1 Belicheck
    #2 Payton
    #3 Jim Harbaugh
    #7 Pete the cheat Carroll

      1. I disagree. He won it with an incredible home field advantage no other team has, and with a dominating defensive performance against the Broncos in the SB. He’s a very good HC, but he’s got some serious advantages in his favor.

        1. As a coach which is a stronger asset to have; the stronger team or the stronger home crowd? Which is more likely to get you to the SB? Which would you rather have? I’m not discounting the effect of crowd noise or home field advantage but those are both mental aspects to the game, if Harbaugh was the greater coach he would have his team ready for those elements.

          The defensive performance in the SB had nothing to do with the coaching and game plan?

          1. The homefield advantage cannot be understated. It’s a game changer and Harbaugh came very close to winning there in the playoffs.

            The rosters are comparable in talent and Harbaugh has the better record head to head. That’s why I would give him the nod.

            The defensive performance was definitely good Coaching, but as is the case with many SB winning teams, Seattle was on a roll defensively and over matched the Broncos greatly in that game. If the Niners defense had been even close to that level in the previous SB we would be talking about going for 7 right now.

            1. “If the Niners defense had been even close to that level in the previous SB we would be talking about going for 7 right now.”

              Well said, Rocket.

              1. If Harbaugh had motivated his defense as well as Carroll we wouldn’t be having this conversation right now.

            2. Motivation had nothing to do with it. The defense had been on a downward spiral since Justin Smith had gotten injured and couldn’t get back to where they were even when he returned.

        2. Rocket, let’s not forget how much the referees were willing to help him either. Seattle got a lot of help from the officials in the NFCCG and the entire season previous to that game, and likely wouldn’t have made it to the SB without that assistance.

    1. Why is Payton #2 over Harbuagh. Payton’s teams have been great but actually disappointed for a few years in a row. Harbaugh should be over Payton.

        1. Just like the difference between the 49ers without Harbaugh on the sidelines (2010) and with Harbaugh on the sidelines (2011)

          1. I don’t think that those situations were the same Claude. There is a before, during, and after scenario in regards to Payton while there is only a before and after with Harbaugh.

      1. Not to mention Payton was suspended a full season by the NFL for being in charge of a football team that was purposely trying to injure other team’s players. He should’ve been banned from the NFL forever, not #2 on this list.

    2. He won because his team was great at cheating, holding, tripping, drugging and cheating. Cheating. How the hell the got away with it game after game is beyond me. Plus it is impossible — or nearly so — for a visiting team to play in that hole of a stadium…

  4. It doesn’t help him at all because Graham is three years younger and was in the final year of his contract. It does however drop Davis down to the fourth slot in term pay for NFL TEs. Oh the horror!

      1. He’s a better blocker; Graham is a better receiver. Graham is also in his prime and a FA. Davis is 30 and has two years left on a contract. Davis is not entering his prime at 30. He may still be in the midst of it, but entry took place a long time ago.

      2. Grant: Davis is entering his prime? At 30 Y/0, he’s past his prime. How many TE’s have better stats when > 30 y/o, than < 30 y/o? And the 9ers could use the money
        they're paying Davis, to resign Iupati and Crabs.

          1. @ MWD: The 2014 cap numbers from over the cap:
            Crabs: Base $3.5M, prorated bonus $770,443 and
            roster bonus of $ 500K = $ 4,770,443 total
            Iupati: Base $ 2,970,500, prorated bonus $1,327,500
            and roster bonus of $327,863 = $4,625,863 total
            Split Davis’s base salary of $4.7 Mil. add the $2.35 mil to Crabs and Iupai’s salary and I think the 9ers could resign both players

            1. The key is whether or not Iupati or Crabtree would be willing to accept those deals, especially considering the fact that both are expected to get huge contracts if they choose to hit the market. Both have been approached by the with terms for a contract extension, and both have rejected those extensions as being too low. I just don’t see any time of deal from the 49ers that will make either one happy.

  5. I’m sure Davis and his agent believe it has an effect, but it really shouldn’t. Two very different situations. Graham as has been noted, was a FA; Davis is not. Graham got a big deal in his 20′s; Davis is 30 and already got a top market contract in his 20′s. Graham was the leading receiver on his team; Davis was not.

    Davis is, and has been, paid fairly. He has nothing to complain about, and this is all an attempt to increase his stock value most likely. The reality is, Davis is now entering the downside of his career, and while he is still a very good player, that could change by the time his current deal runs it’s course. The team is reluctant to rip up a deal with two years left on it and that is understandable, especially when the player will be approaching 33 years of age when it’s done.

    1. I agree with your take about whether it should impact negotiations – it shouldn’t for the reasons you outlined, but Davis and his agent will try to use it. But I still can’t help thinking an extension for Davis is something that gets done this offseason. A 2-year extension would make sense for all parties, so long as it keeps the cap hits around the same the next two years.

      1. There is only one thing the 49er front office has to decide and that is do they need Vernon Davis on that team next year to win. . . I think they do. He’s a veteran and still in his prime; he made the pro-bowl last year and offers stability in that locker room.

        Principals are great, but if the 49ers let him go I’m sure many teams will welcome him with open arms.

    1. A great article as usual from PFF. Thanks for posting it Mid.

      What this seems to indicate is that the biggest weakness in Kap’s game right now is getting the ball off quickly and accurately in the short range area. No surprise that he is ranked near the bottom in terms of passes to RB’s, but I was a little surprised that he ranked so highly on 3rd down with the exception of 3rd and 10+ which is not conducive to success anyway.

      He also throws the hardest routes more often than most. Throws outside the numbers and deep downfield. They really need to work with him and give him more opportunities for easy completions. If he can improve his short area accuracy and start taking the checkdown more often, he’ll improve his performance greatly.

      1. The frustrating thing is he can throw the short pass, even the screen to the rb. I’ve seen film of him throwing the touch pass. I don’t think it’s in roman’s playbook. Their offense seems predicted on chunk plays. Just think of of Luck at Stanford. How many short passes did you see there?

        1. >> I don’t think it’s in roman’s playbook.

          I saw about 3 or 4 on that last drive to win the Saints playoff game back in 2012. Gore was a monster catching those dumpoffs out of the backfield.

      1. “Threw screens on only 6.3% of drop-backs including only 1.3% to running backs, second-lowest in the league.”

        Grant I know Roman avoids talking “scheme” with you but I would love if you could somehow get him to address these numbers.

        1. i’ve heard numerous fans comment about the need to use screens.

          the problem is that it’s hard to throw screens when you’re facing press coverage and a stacked box (more defenders near the line of scrimmage that can nail the screen receiver). opponents typically expect the Niners to run on plays that could go either way run or pass.

          and when the Niners face off coverage, it’s usually because they’re in an obvious passing down like 3rd and 8 where a 5 yard pass to a back isn’t worth it. So the Niners use a check and release system to keep the back in to help block if there are blitzers and give the receivers more time to get downfield. if there is no blitz, then the back will go out into a pass pattern.

      2. all those roll outs should come as no surprise. those roll outs help out the O-line (who are not great pass blockers), give Kaepernick more time to “see” receivers get open and simplifies the reads.

    2. Everything that is listed under “tendencies” is what DC’s and DB’s memorize and study the week before playing the 49ers. Statistics like this one; Led the league with 32.7% of passes going outside the numbers to the right and threw the league’s highest percentage of passes outside the numbers at 58.7% is the kind of information that turn into INT’s against good defenses that did their homework.

      1. part of that is Kaep’s tendencies. part of that scheme design (man beating routes on the left, zone beaters right). some of that is because Vernon Davis draws the coverage inside.

        and some of that is the opponent’s defensive scheme with Cover 3 and Cover 1 where the simple QB read is mofo/mofc (middle of the field open/closed). The simple read is that with a single high safety (Covers 1 and 3) you go outside (middle of the field closed) with your pass reads. The Niners face a lot of Cover 1 and 3 because those shells bring an extra defender (a safety) down in the box which can help defend the run.

    3. This one is very interesting; 56.2% of drop-backs came against base defenses, highest percentage in the league.

      What creates this? Passing more on early downs? Passing in running situations?

      1. What Jack and Grimey said along with the fact they throw out of running formations quite often, and teams are looking to play the run first with this team most of the time.

      2. Game plan is where I was going with it. Formations being one of the tools used by a good game plan. As long as you have two above average WR’s and a decent TE you can get away with it, oh hey look at that just what we got. The use of formations has given the offense an advantage in the passing game. Maybe, just maybe Roman isn’t a big dummy after all.

        1. I found this on Football Outsiders a while ago and there is special mention about the 49ers:

          “The 49ers are really in their own world as far as personnel groups are concerned. They were the only offense to use 11 personnel less than 30 percent of the time. Add in 12 personnel, which they used on 15 percent of plays, and for the second straight season they were the only offense to have four different personnel groups that were used on at least 15 percent of all plays. The 49ers were also the only team to use seven offensive linemen on a regular basis, with 721 personnel on 3.4 percent of plays.”

          http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/2013-offensive-personnel-analysis

  6. Yawn….. Lets talk about the tight ends we have in camp. Speaking of Tight Ends I hope Vance really picks it up. And hope with his size he learns to finish. Don’t know how many of you remember but during the NFC Championship game VMac lined up left side, ran an under neath drag to the right. He caught the ball in the short flat for about a ten to fifteen yard play. I’d like to see that play more often. He can lead block or receive out of that formation. But gosh darnit, use your size and finish against those DB’s.

    Also noticed in that game that VMac didn’t use his size against Sherman when blocking against him. Hope he got better in this area too.

    1. The good news is that he has a full season under his belt, so he should get better at using his size. The bad news is that his TE coach is Eric Mangini.

        1. I believe that’s the play that bay mentioned. Too bad McDonald didn’t use his size against Seattle’s DBs on that play.

          1. Love that play… But it’s not the one I mentioned. Both examples of poor blocking downfield on Sherman were on Kaepernick runs…..

            1. It is the pass play you mentioned, right before you admonished McDonald to use his size against those DBs.

              1. That’s a different play. The one Bay was referring to took place in the Championship game. The one you posted took place in week 2, hence the NBC logo in the upper right corner.

  7. Yes.
    .
    I say he gets a 2-year extension with a small signing bonus, but his next two years stay the same.
    .
    .
    .
    *ALOHA*

  8. None.

    While I agree that Davis is a better all-around TE than Graham they are used differently which played a role in the money the Saints gave him (basically the midpoint between the TE and WR franchise $).

  9. Teams with the estimated salary cap space to take on Vernon Davis:

    Buffalo Bills: $7,789,293
    Miami Dolphins: $15,041,488
    New York Jets: $22,947,500
    Houston Texans: $7,741,313
    Tennessee Titans: $19,311,233
    Kansas City Chiefs: $10,096,575
    Oakland Raiders: $9,226,023
    New York Giants: $6,893,922
    Green Bay Packers: $13,644,119
    Minnesota Vikings: $7,720,258
    Atlanta Falcons: $9,161,024
    Arizona Cardinals: $8,486,757
    Seattle Seahawks: $7,932,706

    I have only listed the teams that have the cap space and that it would make sense for them to go after Davis if he ‘was’ released. The Rams and Redskins currently do not have the cap space to do so, but I can see them making some moves or just going over the cap in order to acquire him.

  10. I don’t think Davis will get any extra money from the Niners. He will report to training camp
    My bigger concern is Alex Boone and lack of proven players in the secondary

  11. Grant,

    Vernon Davis may be a better TE than Vernon Davis, but Jimmy Graham is a better receiver…and that’s why he got paid. Vernon Davis is a great TE with but he is only an okay receiver. He’s never asked to make truly difficult receptions like Graham. Davis is like the best pure TE in the league, but he has to expect to get paid like that and not like a receiver. He hasn’t even cracked the 1k yard mark in his career (came close twice).

    Most importantly, Baalke doesn’t look at what other teams do, he sticks 49ers’ business.

    1. @ninersRoc

      Of course I have to stir up some dust here, but I don’t think that I’ve seen anyone advocate for VD….so I will. Jimmy Graham has had only one QB in all his years in the league, and he happens to be Drew Brees who throws one of the best accurate and catchable pass. Kaep misses on both counts at least half of the time. I think that it was ’10 against the cardinals, when VD on a go, took a lick from Adrian Wilson that I felt right through the TV. He held on to the TD pass from Alex somehow….Jimmy Graham would never have held onto that pass.

      1. @Oregon,

        Sure Graham makes tough catches. But he’s is capable of going up and getting the ball (whereas Vernon needs it put right on him, because he’s solid muscle) and therefore gives Brees a greater window to throw to. Receiver’s take big hits sometimes, that’s part of the job, but the last few times Vernon’s taken a big hit, he’s left the game missed the next one.

        I guess what I was getting at in my original post was that, as much potential as Vernon has, his greatest value with 49ers is closer to a traditional TE and not as a receiver (like Jimmy Graham). If that weren’t the case, and the coaches actually thought that he was “#1 receiver” player, they would structure the passing game that way…they don’t. JH said “guys just aren’t getting open” and we all assumed that he meant the WR’s, but clearly Vernon was included in that same comment. That’s why they keep going after a “deep threat” in the offseason. They don’t think that Vernon can actually consistently get open (particularly down field), because he can’t juke anyone or run a route precise enough to do so, or “feel the open space”.

        I’d still want Vernon on my team over Graham! We can always get a WR to do the other part of that job!

        1. @NinersRoc
          Thanks for clarification…I’m still wondering why they don’t run Vernon out on a fake fly and just blast the OLB 10-12 yards downfield and swing Hunter or LaMichael out of the backfield into the vacuum. Should be good 4-5 times a game for substantial gainers, and pull the DB’s out of the box. I’m no OC (really), but our play calling needs some imagination…more quick-hitters, more overloads. Besides, with his speed, Vernon doesn’t need a lot of juking.

    1. Mind boggling actually. That is unless they figure that they can get him on the cheap, which doesn’t say anything good about McDonald’s development.

        1. I would have to disagree with that Claude. I believe that it is Baalke trying to make the offense better (which again doesn’t say good things about McDonald’s development) and possibly also trying to up the cost of Finleys’ services so that the Seahawks can afford him.

          1. Of course, it’s about Baalke investigating ways to make the offense better. But he’s only talking to Finley because of the possibility that Vernon will continue his holdout and the team will need a TE with some experience. Talking to Finley says nothing about Vance McDonald.

            1. But he’s only talking to Finley because of the possibility that Vernon will continue his holdout and the team will need a TE with some experience.

              That doesn’t fit with what Baalke has done in the past.

              1. Not a claim but a fact Claude. I don’t recall Baalke talking to any free agents with a lower skill set playing their position than the one on the team that is holding out or in a contract dispute just because the team needs experience at the position. He usually just goes with the guy who is currently behind the starter. The same thing will happen in regards to Davis and Boone.

              2. I don’t recall Baalke talking to any free agents with a lower skill set playing their position than the one on the team that is holding out or in a contract dispute

                Perhaps you don’t recall it because the 49ers haven’t had any holdouts/contract disputes in the Baalke-Harbaugh area, except for Gore’s short-lived (4 days) holdout in 2011.

                Vernon Davis is threatening a holdout (except when he isn’t) and the 49ers are talking to a receiving TE, but you don’t see how those two things are connected?

              3. Claude,

                Ha! The thread didn’t bother me a bit. I just thought your head might start hurting from banging it into that wall…

                You know what Yogi Berra said when he was managing the Yankees: “You can lead a horse to water, but you can make them stick their f__king head in it.”

              4. But they have had contract disputes, especially when it has come to extensions Claude.

              5. Mid,

                Do you really think the, given the 49ers seemingly rigid salary structure, they would pay what it will cost to bring in Finlely, while keeping Davis? I don’t. Sure, anything is possible, but that’s got to be way down the list of plausible meanings of the 49ers interest in Finley.

                Ow, my head hurts!

              6. Vernon Davis is threatening a holdout (except when he isn’t) and the 49ers are talking to a receiving TE, but you don’t see how those two things are connected?

                How are they connected, especially considering how Baalke has dealt with contract disputes in the past? Please explain.

              7. Do you really think the, given the 49ers seemingly rigid salary structure, they would pay what it will cost to bring in Finlely, while keeping Davis? I don’t. Sure, anything is possible, but that’s got to be way down the list of plausible meanings of the 49ers interest in Finley.

                If he took a a vet minimum deal, then I could see it happening. Just because the likelihood of such a scenario happening is small doesn’t exactly mean that it couldn’t happen.

                Contract disputes do not always entail a player holding out Jack.

              8. MId,

                If Davis proves intractable and needs to be moved, Baalke has done due diligence on Finley. It’s kind of 1+1=2, isn’t it?

                As for what it says about McDonald, if anything, it more likely says something good about McDonald, than the other way around.

              9. If Davis proves intractable and needs to be moved, Baalke has done due diligence on Finley. It’s kind of 1+1=2, isn’t it?

                It’s just Baalke looking for a way to make the offense better and add competition to the TE position Ex. He did the same thing at the WR position by signing Lloyd and trading for Johnson. If Davis needed to be moved, then Baalke would’ve done that at the beginning of the holdout.

                As for what it says about McDonald, if anything, it more likely says something good about McDonald, than the other way around.

                How so? McDonald is currently in line to be the eventual successor to Davis and signing Finley would raise the question of whether the team still believes that to be true.

              10. Really don’t think it is anything more than Baalke kicking the tires, which is par for the course.

              11. That’s what I believe too Jack, but it still brings up the question of why the team doesn’t just go with McDonald instead of a free agent, which leads back to McDonald’s development. I believe that question is valid especially considering how raw McDonald was coming out of Rutgers.

              12. Mid,

                My thinking is, if it did come to pass that the 49ers moved on from Davis, which I think is unlikely, it would mean they felt at least somewhat ok with their options at TE.

              13. It doesn’t really say anything about where McDonald is in his development. Losing Davis would leave them short at TE, unless Carrier really steps up his game, so it makes sense to check all options.

                And for what it’s worth, McDonald didn’t play his college ball at Rutgers.

              14. Jack,

                Agreed. I was just trying to point out that IF the 49ers looking at Finley said anything about VMcD’s development, which was bought up by MidWest, it could just as easily say something positive as negative.

              15. That is true Ex, but it could also mean that they don’t have much confidence in McDonald as a #1 TE. It could easily be one or the other.

                Losing Davis would leave them short at TE, unless Carrier really steps up his game, so it makes sense to check all options.

                Unless the team is considering going with just two TEs and that having Finley on the team will give McDonald more time to develop into an all-around TE Jack.
                Yeah, I noticed that I put down the wrong college for McDonald after rereading my post a minute ago. It’s Rice University.

              16. 1. MWD:

                How are they connected, especially considering how Baalke has dealt with contract disputes in the past?

                Now, you’re just f’ing with me, right? What contract disputes are you referring to? Also, the 49ers pursued no TEs in free agency or the draft, which indicates they aren’t looking to replace McDonald. It wasn’t until after Davis indicated that he might not come to training camp that the 49ers talked to Finley. The timing suggests, strongly in my opinion, the two are related.

                I can’t simplify it any more than I have. If you still don’t get it, then you don’t want to get it.

                2. Exgolfer, Jack: If all three of us are going to bang our heads against the same wall, may I suggest we do it in time to the Ramones? It will bring back some good memories for me.

                3. … the 49ers haven’t had any holdouts/contract disputes in the Baalke-Harbaugh area

                Really? You guys are going to let that go?

              17. Now, you’re just f’ing with me, right? What contract disputes are you referring to?

                First of all, you’re not my type Claude. And second, what would you classify a situation where the team offers either a contract extension or a new contract to a player and that player and his agent turns it down because they believe it is a low ball offer?

                Also, the 49ers pursued no TEs in free agency or the draft, which indicates they aren’t looking to replace McDonald.

                So you were in the same room with Baalke to know whether or not he was looking at free agent TEs and have also looked at the draft board to know whether Baalke was targeting a TE or not?

                It wasn’t until after Davis indicated that he might not come to training camp that the 49ers talked to Finley.

                Which neither proves or disproves what either you or I have said.

                The timing suggests, strongly in my opinion, the two are related.

                Correct. IT’S YOUR OPINION AND YOU’RE ENTITLED TO IT, JUST AS I AM ENTITLED TO MINE.

                I can’t simplify it any more than I have. If you still don’t get it, then you don’t want to get it.

                You obviously didn’t read my 2:58 P.M. post in response to Ex and Jack.

                . Exgolfer, Jack: If all three of us are going to bang our heads against the same wall, may I suggest we do it in time to the Ramones? It will bring back some good memories for me.

                You’re the only one unnecessarily banging your head against that wall. I have already indicated that I see yours and their point of view.

                3. … the 49ers haven’t had any holdouts/contract disputes in the Baalke-Harbaugh area

                Really? You guys are going to let that go?

                No I won’t, because that means that Rogers, Brown, Goldson are still on the team because Brown and Goldson obviously didn’t balk at the contract offer(s) from the front office and Rogers obviously didn’t balk at taking a pay cut, right? And it must be true that the team has already struck deals with Crabtree and Iupati that they didn’t feel as being too low. In fact, we obviously haven’t lost any players off the 2011-2012 team, right?
                NOT!!!!

              18. “Unless the team is considering going with just two TEs”

                That could be a possibility though I doubt they would go in that direction. Even then, it says more about the potential absence of Davis than it does McDonald.

              19. True Jack, but it could be possible if the team is looking for a receiver type TE, which Finley is. I do agree that the possibility is small though.

              20. Was the player under contract and did he refuse or threaten not to report to mini camp or training camp? If not, then it wasn’t a holdout and it wasn’t a contract dispute. And it wasn’t analogous to Davis’ situation.

                What exactly is your definition of a contract dispute Claude, because you obviously don’t believe that a player disagreeing with what was offered to him as not being a contract dispute.

                Did the 49ers sign a TE in free agency or draft a TE? No, they didn’t, so read the f’ing tea leaves. It’s not that subtle.

                Which means… what exactly? Unless you were in the same room, you have no idea whether the team thought about adding a TE via free agency or the draft. And they did sign an UDFA TE.

                Yes, but my opinion has more than mere supposition to support it. Specifically, it has facts, logic and common sense to support it.

                You have as much facts and common sense to back up your opinion as I do, which isn’t a whole heck of a lot. When you get down to it, both of us are making suppositions that neither can prove or disprove without inside knowledge of what Baalke is thinking or planning to do.

                We all make mistakes on our spelling and grammar. Or if you’re like me, you confuse what university a player went to. But you are right that I missed that and that’s on me.

              21. The likelihood of the 49ers going with only 2 TE’s is somewhere between slim and none.

                This is a team that at one point last year had 4 TE’s on the active roster.

                In 229 red zone snaps they had 2 or more TE’s on the field for 168 of them (73%) and scored 28 of their 37 red zone TD’s (76%) with 2+ TE’s on the field.

              22. Weak huh? So you can say with absolute certainty that you knew that Baalke had no plans for the TE position in free agency or the draft without being in the same room as him Jack?

              23. Of course not. It’s weak because none of us are in the room, but that doesn’t mean the evidence is stronger on one side of the argument than the other.

              24. It’s weak because none of us are in the room, but that doesn’t mean the evidence is stronger on one side of the argument than the other.

                Which is what I have been saying Jack. I believe that both sides of the coin are a possibility, but that they also do not enough solid evidence either. I also believe that it is possible that Baalke could’ve contacted Finley just to mess with people’s minds. He’s good at that.

              25. “but that doesn’t mean the evidence “isn’t” stronger on one side of the argument than the other.”

              26. The evidence is balanced in my opinion Jack. On one side you have the possibility talking with Finley is an attempt to get Davis to report in. On the second side, you have the possibility they contacted Finley because they didn’t like what they saw from McDonald during OTAs. The third possibility (and to me the most likely one) is that Baalke is just kicking the tires in order to gauge whether adding Finley will make the offense better. And finally, the fourth possibility is Baalke is playing mind games with everybody.

              27. Claude,

                I had a pretty good idea you knew the use of “era”, that, and you did have all the letters in the intended word (mixed up and with an extra “a”, maybe, but they were all there).

                I’m confused, who was with Baalke during the draft and / or FA, Jack or Claude?

              28. It was more aimed towards Claude Ex, but it could have gone either way. My point was that unless one of us was with Baalke the entire time, there’s no way that we can know whether Baalke was interested in adding another TE or not. Just because there wasn’t a TE added during that stretch doesn’t mean that Baalke didn’t necessarily have his eye on one, yet at the same time, it doesn’t mean that he did either.

            2. [Sigh]

              what would you classify a situation where the team offers either a contract extension or a new contract to a player and that player and his agent turns it down because they believe it is a low ball offer?

              Was the player under contract and did he refuse or threaten not to report to mini camp or training camp? If not, then it wasn’t a holdout and it wasn’t a contract dispute. And it wasn’t analogous to Davis’ situation.

              So you were in the same room with Baalke to know whether or not he was looking at free agent TEs and have also looked at the draft board to know whether Baalke was targeting a TE or not?

              Did the 49ers sign a TE in free agency or draft a TE? No, they didn’t, so read the f’ing tea leaves. It’s not that subtle.

              Correct. IT’S YOUR OPINION AND YOU’RE ENTITLED TO IT, JUST AS I AM ENTITLED TO MINE.

              Yes, but my opinion has more than mere supposition to support it. Specifically, it has facts, logic and common sense to support it.

              You also completely missed the point of my No. 3 comment. I was poking fun at myself. See where I bolded “area”? That was to draw attention to a typo that I had made. It should have “era.”

              1. Claude,

                I had a pretty good idea you knew the use of “era”, that, and you did have all the letters in the intended word (mixed up and with an extra “a”, maybe, but they were all there).

                I’m confused, who was with Baalke during the draft and / or FA, Jack or Claude?

    2. If true, that is classic Baalke. Always looking to see if he can add more talent to the roster, and may the best man win.

    3. Finley is toast.
      .
      One more more lick in the right spot and the kid may not walk anymore.
      .
      Has he even been cleared to play?
      .
      .
      .
      *ALOHA*

      1. Just read up on his latest.
        .
        Apparently, he gets $10 mil if he retires.
        .
        Take the money, son!
        .
        It’s not worth the risk.
        .
        .
        .
        *ALOHA*

      2. He’s been cleared by the Doctor who performed the surgery. Teams may have differing opinions, but according to Finley it’s the money that is keeping him from signing with a team. In other words they are offering less than he can make by taking the insurance and retiring.

        1. He’s a huge risk right now. If Finley chooses not to retire, then his best option is to take one of those deals and outplay it In order to set his self up for a big pay day during the next off season.

          1. And I don’t he would outplay any of those deals.
            .
            I mean…he already had the dropsies long before the injury.
            .
            And that was with AR throwing to him.
            .
            For the vet minimum, he’d be a great addition.
            .
            But he’d never sign for that and the Baalke wouldn’t offer more.
            .
            .
            .
            *ALOHA*

  12. I’ve said all along that I haven’t liked Vernon’s ploy, but I haven’t enjoyed the bashing of VD. I like Vernon as he is. I want him as one of the main men on this 49er team. I actually think he’ll show for TC; perhaps a day or two late.

    1. I’m a big Vernon Davis fan and appreciate what he brings to this team. However I don’t like what he’s doing and while it’s part of the business, I don’t think he has a case and is being willfully ignorant to the realities of his situation.

      This is a team in contention for a SB. They need everybody on board and pushing for that goal. This stunt by Davis is selfish and puts his leadership into question imo. He’s been paid fairly and has two years left on a contract. He needs to get his ass into camp, have a great season and then talk to the team about an extension when he’s going into his final year. That is how it is usually done and I can’t see anything good for either side coming from a holdout.

          1. Let’s put it this way Rocket: an Alex Smith stalker that often describes his self as being a monkey with a khaki tutu on him used your screen name for his own.

  13. Brotha,
    My description of VD’ situation is somewhere between your take and Grant’s.
    He’s a valuable asset to the teams success, but the team can still win without him if it had to.

    1. I agree. I also think, whenever possible, seriously, WHENEVER possible, accentuate the positive!!!
      > “Orale’!”
      > Gung Ho! (Working Together)!
      >’The strength of the chain is determined by the strength of the weakest link.’

        1. “Wouldn’t it be intriguing if the Seahawks picked him up . . .”

          No. What would be “intriguing” is if the 49ers absolutely demolished the Seahawks twice in the regular season and then crushed them again in January, flushing them from the playoffs, and stomping Shermans ugly nose in the mud in the process. THAT would be intriguing!

        2. Mary,
          I would trade VD straight up for Kam Chanceller. But that would not work out well for VD having to go against Kam (Bam) twice a year.

          But that trade would likely would give us the edge against the c-hawks in head-to-head battles.

              1. I wouldn’t be worried about Seattle this year. We all know how difficult it is to repeat a SB win. The team to worry about (right now) is the St. L. Rams. Their defensive front 7 is probably the best (right now) scary good; if only Sam Bradford could get it together and of course, the Cards.

  14. Rocket sez:
    “… Harbaugh came very close to winning…”

    Please advise: who will be happy with such a conclusion
    to the 2014/2015 season…? Only one definition of success now:
    … Lombardi trophy #6, … okay?

      1. Rookies report today, all QB’s report Friday, and vets report a week from today. The first full-squad padded practice can take place on the 26th.

  15. Grant, what happens on ‘reporting day?’ Is it like the first day of school where the day is pretty much spent reading the itinerary and getting all your books and gear for the upcoming year? Or do they actually go and practice today? With it just being rookies there’s only so much you can do above drilling fundamentals.

  16. Tuesday’s Bobby Wagner quotes from ESPN’s First Take (via heraldnet.com)

    On Denver… “They looked scared out there. Nobody wanted to catch the ball. Nobody wanted to come up the middle.”

    On Jimmy Graham’s contract… “If you want your contract, get it before you play us, that’s all I’m saying…” “When you play us, it’s not going to be a pretty thing for you.”

    On Vernon Davis… “When he plays us, he seems scared too.”

    1. Man, do I hate the Seahawks and their fans (as fans, not as people, mostly).

      I was just up in Seattle visiting family (in-laws). Easily the most insecure and obnoxious group of fans I’ve ever been around.

      1. It took the Cowboys years to become insufferably arrogant.

        It only took the Seahawks one lousy season to be the most disliked team in the game.

        1. And then there’s the reality of having a tough schedule with a bullseye on your back. Every opponent will bring a little something extra. It’s that way every year for both teams from the previous SB. It leaves very little margin for error.

          1. This season the Seahawks have to play the first place schedule, while 49ers get the 2nd place schedule. Unfortunately, there may not be much of a benefit from that this year – they get Packers and Panthers, we get Bears and Saints.

            1. The Seahawks have every right to talk. The only way to shut them up is to beat them. Take their best shots and respond in kind. Impose your will upon them, and then do not take your foot off their throat until they gurgle incoherent noises….

              1. That’s the spirit Razor. You’d better concentrate on the Cards and Rams who are “nipping” at your heels ;)

        1. Oregon,

          No way. They know I’m a Niner fan, but they’re respectful (as am I), for the most part (good natured needling, here and there).
          BTW, I’m not saying that about my in-laws (at least not most of them), it’s the fan on the street I’m talking abouit. And those folks had no idea I was a Niner fan.

          In their minds, they’ve won the next three super bowls already. It’s like some mad scientist created a monstrous hybrid fan from Cowboy and Raider fan DNA.

          1. @exgolfer

            I knew that was what you were referring to…. I should have thrown in a LOL
            just a bit of mirth….

      2. I got news for you but the 2 most hated “fans” by many are the Seahawks and the 49ers and not not necessarily in that order.

        1. @Mary

          That would not be news to most of the PAC-10, the same two egomaniacs coaching the Niners and the Hawks are the same two egomaniacs that were coaching Stanford and USC in college when they were the 2 most hated college teams….some grow up….some don’t That should help, Grant

          1. Mary,

            Part of why many don’t like 49er fans relates to how long the franchise has been successful. The 49ers have dashed the hopes of, and lost to, many franchises on the way to Super Bowls.

            Other than the 49ers, who is a rival of the Seahawks? The Broncos, maybe, but that’s it.

            No, Seahawk fans are hated simply because they are extremely obnoxious, coupled with an extreme little brother (or sister) complex.

            1. Exgolfer: I am breathlessly hanging onto every word you say. Talk about delusional. And, your punishment in life is that you have Seahawk relatives and have to spend time in Seattle. Would I ever love to be a fly on the wall at these “friendly” family soirees.

              1. Mary,

                Thx, I love the city of Seattle, at least for the two months of the year the weather is nice.

                I also like my in-laws.

                We hardly talk about the Seahawks and Niners, and when we do, it goes something like this:

                In-law: can’t wait for that thanksgiving night game!

                Me: Me too. It’s going to be a war.

                BTW, I see you’re wearing your Seahawks hat, t shirt, jersey, hoody, jacket and scarf, but where are your wrist bands, sweat pants, socks and face paint? Everyone else in Seattle is wearing all that stuff everywhere they go, even though it’s the middle of baseball season.

                In-law: I came straight from work and didn’t have time to go home and change.

                The Niners will be ready for a war, but I’m not do sure about the Seahawks.

                Me: Um, what are you talking about? You don’t have the irrational faith in the Seahawks that the rest of Seattle has?

                In-law: deep down, everyone up here knows how incredibly lucky the Seahawks have been with late round picks and UDFA’s. 3/4 of our defensive secondary was drafted in the fifth round or later, for god’s sake! Anyone with half a brain knows that’s not sustainable.

                Me: Come on, don’t sell the Seahawks short, they’re not a bad little team. That Dick Sherman has a lot of spunk. He’s always grabbing, holding or goading someone…

                In-law: up here in the NW it’s only sunny a couple of months out of the year, well, the same thing is going to happen to the Seahawks. They’ve had their two months in the sun, now it’s going to be ten months of miserable, cold, dreary, grey existence.

                Me: Oh, I don’t know, they might go 9-7, and backdoor their way into the playoffs…

                In-law: Sure, but then they won’t have the 14point home field advantage provided by the 12th and 13th men. We all know they’re basically the NY Jets, only with a more phony coach.

                They’d get unceremoniously bounced in the first round.

                Me: that would be kind of nice… But their defense is so good, you really don’t believe they can keep it together?

                In-law: wake up! Don’t you remember the ’85 Bears? They were supposed to dominate for a decade. They won one lousy Super Bowl, then poof!

                And the Bears had Jim McMahon, all we have is that pigmy, Wilson.

                Me: OK. I’m going to get another Red Hook. Can I get you one, or maybe some Zoloft?

        1. Mary,

          FYI, that dialogue may have been fictionalized slightly to make it more interesting.

          One part is pretty right on, though, and maybe you can explain it to me. Why are there so many kooks running around Seattle in the middle of summer, with Seahawk face paint?

            1. Mary,

              Interesting article, written in a way to put the Seshawks and their fans in the most positive light possible, but, hey, Bledsoe is from Seattle, after all.

  17. “what have learned today?”
    We’ve learned little to nothing over the last couple of months that we’ve already known.

    Here are my top 5.
    1. CK needs to become a better pocket passer (we’ve known that since mid-season of 2013)
    2. We need a better/speedier 3rd WR option (maybe TC has the answer)
    3. Will Culliver be the answer at CB?
    4. The A’s are for real
    5. The Giants are slipping

    By this time next week we should be getting more solid 49er news to chew on.
    Good times right ahead!

    1. AES,

      Possible alternates to your numbers 4 & 5:

      4.While the A’s are for real, they’ve already played their best baseball for this season, will coast into the playoffs and, once again, not win the World Series.

      5. While the Giants don’t look great right now, they remain in the thick of the playoff race, build momentum and will be an extremely dangerous team when they make the playoffs.

  18. Seattle Seahawks a fan base that funny
    Fans dress like their camping these dudes are real dummies
    they city is boring their city is lame
    Three sixty five there covered in rain
    Seattles so boring you will find no fun
    they scream to the gods please give us some sun!
    Theyre sports teams all sucks they all had no fans
    they all dressed in flannels and followed grunge bands
    the Seahawks were bad the Sonics left town
    The baseball is horrid theres no one around
    Seahawks players were crappy they bood then theyd bench em
    little Seattle just craved some attention
    they scream to the nation hey guys look at us!
    people would visit and soon they would cuss..
    their jerseys were ugly they had not much fans
    look around the kingdome to half empty stands
    boy they were bad for all 40 years
    all 500 fans were sobbing in tears
    then they switched the divisions now the Niners they face
    they had all the glory and played in a great place
    the city was big they got all the glory
    a national following with 5 rings was the story
    then came the owner he wanted a change
    to change the image of a city thats lame
    he changed the colors a bright ugly green
    The meek fans painted their faces and tried to act mean
    but they were weak they needed a crowd
    so they built a new building with 2 giant shrowds
    it made them seem louder it increased their swag
    even lamer idea a 12 on a flag?
    Now they needed to win so they hired pete
    there team wasnt good but this man could cheat
    the Seahawks would fight they shove and they hold
    they puffed out there chest and acted real bold
    now here comes the fans they dont know the game
    just 2 years before they would hide in shame
    now they wave their lame flags and cheer on their birds
    but everyone else still knows their nerds
    the Niners would come and they yell and they boo
    then leave the field early in their subaru
    After 40 years they finally gut lucky
    forgot about times when they were real sucky
    they say there the best they say that there stacked
    a dynasty team with greats like Matt Hassleback
    where were they before hiding like elves?
    Then brought down there jerseys from off of the shelves
    I had never met one not a single fan
    here they come crawling from cold soggy lands
    now theyre jumping and shouting wanting a battle
    but we all know no one respects Seattle
    You had a good team a few balls bounced your way
    but we all know your jealous of the team from the bay
    its been a while but weve got 5 rings
    a ton of hall of famers if you kn ow what I mean
    so the lame little brother finally got his time
    but it will pass quick brother were fine
    You will never be us your forever neglected
    even in your SB win were still more respected
    your jealous your jaded your history sucks
    Your flannels are faded you ignorant schmucks..
    So there you have it from a SF poet
    you and your city are lame end everyone knows it

  19. Random thoughts before the TC camp stories begin.
    The ESPY’s was very dry tonight.
    This was perhaps one of the most boring and lifeless award shows that ESPN has ever produced.

    Who ever recruited Drake to be the host should have been fired (imo) 3 minutes into the program.
    The best moment of the show was Stuart Scott’ presentation of the Jimmy V ‘never give up’ award. The Derek Jeter tip of the cap salute commercial was classy.

    I admire Michael Sam’ courage and ascent into the NFL but giving him awards before he makes an NFL roster is a stretch.
    How about finding and awarding former NFL players who actually kept their lifestyle a secret during their NFL careers because the league was not ready to accept them.

    The good: Millions of dollars raised for cancer research.

  20. Hey post this poem to other websites..Hoping Seattle fans see the truth how most 49er fans feel about them..Not very techy so help me get this 49er anthem around

    1. Very funny, NorCal, but before disseminating your verse to the world, it could use some editing. No offense intended, just saying…

  21. In the spirit of sharing comedy and merriment, I was reading a piece on PFT about some statements Elway had made, and in the comments section some Einstein says that the Seahawks got lucky in the SB and that Denver wins that game 9 out of 10 times.
    After catching my breath from laughing I had to wonder about that statement. Is any fan really that dilusional? The SB was a demolition and an embarrassment. Reminiscent of Montana’s flogging of Elway’s Broncs in a previous SB.

    1. Is any fan really that dilusional?

      Don’t we have one that delusional already on this blog that has proudly stated that he is a monkey wearing a khaki tutu?

      1. That guy is not a fan; of anything. He’s not FOR anything. He’s only AGAINST Harbaugh, Kapernick, the Forty Niners and the Forces of Good. He’s a mental patient, not a fan.

    2. Maybe that Bronco fan got his math backwards and meant to write that the Broncos would win once out of ten.

      Otherwise, that guy should be locked up.

          1. Don’t forget trait 5.

            One of my wife’s cousins, who, up until a couple of years ago was a “Life Time Packer Fan”, which, by my recollection, started right around the time that Reggie White, Brett Favre, and Mike Holmgren got things rolling up there. His dad was from Wisconsin, and that was the connection he claimed.

            Up until a couple of years ago, he never said boo about the seahawks.

            Now, he’s the biggest Seahawks fan you’ve ever seen, a “Life Time Seahawks Fan” as he calls himself.

            SMH, bandwagon fans, big time. Not all, but many.

            1. You could also include trait 4 for Seahawk fans, that is, if imaginary championships count.

              Like the Super Bowl they won against Pittsburgh, only the refs cheated them and also the next three or four Super Bowls, which the Seahawks are obviously going to win, because, well, they’re the Seahawks, gosh darn it, and that’s just the only way things can go, because, like I said, they’re the invincible, incredible Seahawks! Just ask anyone in Seattle, they’ll tell you…

        1. Mary,

          Yes, it’s true, there are a lot of 49er fans that will play the “We Have Five Super Bowl Trophies, How Many Does Your Team Have”. I’ve heard it used to trump any other team, but the Steelers.

          I can understand how it can come off as slightly obnoxious to fans of other, less successful organizations, so, sorry if that bothers you.

          One thing about that, though, the 49ers do actually have five SB trophies.

          1. Sorry, I meant trait 3, not trait 4.

            What would a Know-it-all Seahawks fan’s poster look like, anyway? Hmm, I know!

            A picture of the Seahawks secondary, with changeable numbers, so the fan in question could keep a running total of how many holds and PI’s the Seahawks DB’s get away with each game.

              1. Mary,

                See what I’m talking about? Not only do you Seshawks fans try to add the Pittsburgh SB to your total (I actually had a Seahawk fan tell me he considered that SB as a win for Seattle), but now you’re trying to take them away from the 49ers…

  22. Checking out the ribbon cutting ceremony for Levi’s Stadium.
    Nice opening address by team owner young Jed(i) York. Really liked his quote of Bill Walsh’ “Champions act like champions before they become champions.” Recognition of Bill Walsh on this day is a great way to start the day.

    Gotta love coach Harbaugh, but would it have killed him to wear a suit today? (lol)

    1. It might be harder then it looks. I thinking Harbaugh (and perhaps Baalke too) could possibly have Asperger like traits. Wearing the same fuss free clothes every day, extreme work focus, tireless workers, high IQs, loyalty, difficulties with establishing work relationships…

      Not saying Aspergers outright. Just traits. I’d guess Baalke is INTJ. Good additions for any organization once you get past the goofiness.

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