Quality control: Week-11 run plays

Here is a breakdown of Frank Gore’s and Carlos Hyde’s rushing production against the Giants:

Frank Gore

Counter10 carries, 54 yards (5.4 yards per carry).

Inside zone5 carries, 23 yards (4.6 ypc).

Power3 carries, 16 yards (5.3 ypc).

G Lead1 carry, 2 yards (2 ypc).

Carlos Hyde

Outside zone4 carries, 16 yards (4 ypc).

Counter: 3 carries, 4 yards (1.3 ypc).

Inside zone: 2 carries, 5 yards (2.5 ypc).

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  1. Grant what do you think about your give it to Hyde piece now seeing that they used Hyde in different ways mostly than Gore.

    1. Hyde was effective on the outside zone plays, and he gained 4 yards on his first counter run. His second counter run came two plays after Gore ran the same exact play from the same exact formation for a 5-yard gain. Roman telegraphed that one. On Hyde’s third counter run, the pulling guard — Boone — was supposed to kick out Jason Pierre-Paul but missed him, and he hit Hyde in the backfield.

        1. This has to be one of the most inconsistent blogs I visit. Most update one, two, three or more times a day. But this one. Maybe once a day. Or once every other day or once every third day. I don’t get it.

  2. Hyde’s pass pro isn’t up to Gore’s standard. When he’s in the game, its more likely to be a run. If I know it, opposing defenses know it too.

    1. For what it’s worth, PFF says Gore has given up 2 sacks and 1 QB hit this season, and Hyde has not given up a sack or a QB hit this season.

      PFF also says Hyde has been on the field for 63 run plays and 94 pass plays.

      1. Thanks for the info. I’m surprised by the run/pass ratio.

        I distinctly remember pass rushers getting by Hyde. Maybe they were QB hurries/hits. I remember announcers frequent mention of pass pro fall-off when Hyde’s in.

        I’m hoping Hyde’s pass catching will slow blitzes down the road… if only the 49ers had a QB good at touch passes.

        1. Announcers can be prone to stereo types to fill the air space. Such as the fall off of pass protection from veteran to rookie. I wonder if they’ve looked at the stats?

          1. wilsonm73– You are on the money about announcers and their stereo typical air space filling. It sometimes appears like they are not even watching the game. Unfortunately a lot of fans seem to take their versions of the game as fact. It appears to me that they often have a pre-written script for their color commentary that they pull when appropriate to fill in dead air time which often seeps into their comments of on the field action. This puts a sort of a spin on their commentary of what transpired on the field.

        2. Kaepernick hit a couple of check down’s over the middle this week. That’s something we haven’t seen a lot from him. Perhaps a sign of things to come.

      2. According to PFF Hyde has given up 4 total pressures on 45 pass block snaps (8.8%), while Gore has given up 5 total pressures on 72 pass block snaps (6.9%).

            1. Sample size isn’t an issue. We’re 10 games into the season and only 14 RBs in football have more pass blocking snaps than Hyde.

              1. Prime,

                Depends on how the information is used. The moderator for some reason decided to use only some of the information provided by PFF. Not sure why.

              2. I agree with that. But so do a lot of others on here to make their point.
                Too many subjective factors in football sometimes to use stats to show cause and affect

              3. “Hurries are a highly subjective stat.”

                As are drops, but you don’t have a problem using those.

              4. that seems mighty arrogant to assume you’re a better judge of football actions on film than a group of people that specialize in it.

      3. Didn’t Harbaugh last week acknowledge that “the back” missed a call that led to one of the more unfortunate CK sacks/hits? I believe he was referring to Hyde.

          1. Seems to be a common tendency for most of us to put the blame for something on the closest rookie. An example for why we often don’t really know who really was responsible for a play breaking down.

      4. > Hyde has not given up a sack or a QB hit this season.

        That’s not possible. Against either the Rams or the Saints (I forget which), he did not hear Boone make a blitz pick up call for him, and he went to block the same lineman that Boone was blocking. As a result the outside blitzer (a DB) rushed unblocked. Anthony Davis made a futile lunge and looked bad — no doubt the fans blamed him. But in his presser, Harbaugh mentioned that sack was on the RB.

    2. Brodie, their was a long discussion last week with Prime about this. Scooter put up the stats. Percentage wise per snap Hyde’s in on as many passing plays as Gore. His pass protection isn’t bad at all. Gore is certainly the gold standard. I am more interested in why Hyde isn’t succeeding at the same run plays Gore gets?

      1. I’m guessing Gore’s better at inside running because of experience, low pad level, the ability to squeak through smaller gaps in the line.

        I can’t remember the interview, but one 49er said Gore was by far the smartest player on the team when it comes to football, and most qualified to become a position coach some day. Gore’s a crafty old goat.

        1. Gore scored single digits on the wonderlic. But as we can all see he knows how to find a whole and make yardage. I think Hyde has talent he needs patience to develop. Did you watch any of his Buckeye’s tape? He consistently running through 1-5yd wholes in the line. Really different than the NFL.

          1. I’m guessing the wonderlic is strictly a language processing issue. Insiders are amazed at Gore’s football brain.

            I used to work with carpenters who had great difficulty saying exactly what they wanted.. but could quickly glance at a set of plans, measure once, cut once and get it right the first time in ways a “words guy” like me could only dream of.

            1. if a player struggles to read, he will have a difficult time with the Wonderlic. Vince Young did have a 6 on his first test, but was increased to a 7 because there was a partial erasure and the answer could not be detected.

              1. It might also mean something that Gore gets most of the runs early in the game where as Hyde is used later. If the defense makes adjustments to the run than Hyde would be running against a tougher defensive alignment. Taking into consideration Gores ability to get small and find holes it still seems like Hyde often has less to work with and gets stuffed behind the line of scrimmage more often than Gore. They are entirely different types of runners with different strengths so it makes sense that each might have an advantage over the other depending on various different situations.

            2. I think you got this exactly right. My early impression of Frank from interviews was unfavorable because he isn’t well spoken. I now think of him as the team’s sage. I also agree on “smarts” in general. I have a relative by marriage who I always thought of as a bit dim based on his (lack of) interactions at family gatherings.
              Then I find out he worked his way up from apprentice iron worker and was supervising major bridge and overpass projects around the state. He’s way smarter than me in some stuff. Who knew? But I try not to judge like that any more.

      2. Wilson forget the stats for a minute. Does it look like the 49ers offensive coaches have faith in Hyde to be in there on passing downs to pass protect?
        When you look at those critical moments of the game is Hyde in on those type of plays?

        1. Yes lets forget the stats and details and completely go to conjecture. This ground has been plowed and I am not rehashing. Gore is a great RB and the best in 49er history. Hyde isn’t as good but is young and talented. You can speculate all you want on trust but you aren’t in the locker room so you have no idea about trust. The best guys plays and Gore is the best right now. Its not about trust. If they didn’t trust him he wouldn’t be on the team.

          1. Just play along and have some fun. Do you think Hyde has earned the right to be in on critical passing downs based on watching the games? No stat sheet, good old fashioned eye ball test?

            1. I’m not going to get into another back and forth on this, but based on what I have seen it appears the coaches are willing to put Hyde out there on passing downs. They’d no doubt prefer Gore, as he’s got the better experience, but they don’t shy away from putting Hyde in those situations. Which is why I started looking into the stats for our previous conversation in the first place.

            2. Prime, I do say he passes the eye test but is not as good as an all pro who’s in front of him. I think he’s played good for a rookie in that role.

              1. Fair enough. I’d like to see more. More punishing runs.Better average on kick returns and just more overall opportunities. The only way he gets that is to take advantage of the few he gets.

    3. I like Hyde, but he’s not going to be Gore 2.0. He runs more upright. Doesn’t squeeze through small holes the way Gore can (few ever do).

      But Hyde is quick, can hit the edge and plows into defenders… and he’s a natural pass catcher. Rather then Gore 2.0, Hyde should aim for Roger Craig 2.0.

      At the start of the season there were Gore 2.0 candidates who were slithery inside power runners… Lattimore, and Winston. Lattimore “retired”, Winston was an LMJ indecision casualty.

  3. Gore ran all five of his inside zone runs from the shotgun/pistol and gained 4.6 ypc on those runs.

    Hyde ran his first inside zone run from shotgun/11 personnel and gained 4 yards. He ran his second inside zone run from undercenter/1-formation/22 personnel and gained just 1 yard after getting hit in the backfield.

    1. Defensive distribution and how many defenders in the box also can configure into the success of a run, and the less you spread them out on offense, the more defenders there are in the box. You line up in the “I” with 22 personnel, and you are going to get a loaded box on defense which does not lead to great success in the run game unless you are constricting your formation with the idea of running a bounce out or an edge run. To judge fairly two backs, you have to evaluate them on the same runs with the same personnel groups and the same formations with most likely the same down and distances to get the most parallel defensive tendencies, otherwise, the field is not level. Therefore, these comparisons of players and run are not really comparisons because it is apples to oranges, and although the two are fruits, they are not the same fruits.

      1. True.

        Gore ran a counter to the right out of a single-back 14 personnel formation and gained 16 yards on second-and-2 from the 49ers’ 47-yard line.

        Two plays later, Roman called the same play for Hyde out of the same personnel group and same formation in almost the same situation — second-and-1 from the Giants’ 27. The Giants saw it coming and stopped Hyde for a 1-yard loss. Would have been a good time to call a G Lead to the left.

  4. Hunter is missed more then the 49ers let on. His 2012 5.3 YPC before the injury was about the same as Gores.

    With Hunter out, Lattimore hurt and Vernon in an injury funk too, the 49ers have a major lack of explosiveness issue.

    1. I really liked Hunter for what he contributed. He was a good change of pace back. Spread the field running outside the tackles.

    2. I think Hyde is better than Hunter. Hyde is effective on the outside zone runs and Weak G leads. He doesn’t get enough opportunities to run those plays.

      1. I’d take Hyde over Hunter too because of his durability… but Hyde (and a healthy Vernon) provides a missing explosiveness that keeps defenses honest.

        Grant, do you notice DBs playing WRs closer this season because their not worried about Vernon’s deep threat?

  5. Someone mentioned redzone problems earlier. The 49ers have a redzone touchdown percentage of 39.39, their worst since 2005 when they managed a 39.29.

    Never fear, they reached the NFCCG in 2011 with a 40.68.

      1. “Defense and special teams were better in 2011.”

        True, by .6 yards per game. The defense has allowed 308.8 yards per game so far, compared to 308.2 yards per game in 2011.

          1. Included among the 212 points given up this season are at least one pick 6, one punt return for TD, and one blocked punt for a TD which has nothing to do with the play of the defense.

            How many of those did the team suffer in 2011?

              1. Our offense is woefully inadequate. Last year we had hope that when we had “all the weapons back” we would be better.
                Well this year we have more wrs, rbs, same o-line and the offense is worse.
                Best game so far was the rams. It’s not special at all.

      2. The 2011 team also set an NFL record for a positive take away to turnover differential. The next year alone it dropped by 19. The 2011 season was the perfect storm in many respects.

      1. They need to run the ball more down there and not with Kaepernick. I posted these numbers back during the bye week so the data is now a little stale, but here are the redzone run:pass ratios since 2011. (QB runs)

        2011: 54/26 (4)
        2012: 41/15 (9)
        2013: 52/24 (6)
        2014: 39/32 (12)

        1. Did you email Roman? Just kidding. Is that a call Kaepernick makes on the read option? Or is that a call made from the OC?

          1. The one this past weekend looked like a call made by the coaches. I can only base that on the fact that they seemed to be trying to set the edge for Kaepernick with Stevie Johnson.

              1. One of the problems in analysis is that we really don’t know a lot about who is responsible for what. We are only guessing.

        2. Thanks for the breakdown Jack.
          I guess its disconcerting when we get down there and it doesn’t feel like we know what we want to do to get down there.

  6. The past 10 Super Bowl championship teams all converted more than 53 percent of their red-zone trips into TDs on offense.

    1. Despite the lack of red zone success in 2011, the team won because they had a very physical defense, great special teams with Ted Ginn, and a large turnover margin. They were efficient on offense, chewed up clock to shorten the game, and didn’t have a lot of mistakes.
      In 2014, the defense does not impose its will but is solid and well coached. The special teams is very average, and the offense is inconsistent and sporadic. Kaep is a great play and disastrous play waiting to happen. He hasn’t thrown a INT since Denver, but the opponent has its chances!

      The team has cleaned up its penalties, but who can say what happens in the playoffs when the pressure is on.

      In 2012, when Kaep took over, he had never thrown for a late 4th Quarter TD, and had his first chance at the end of the game. He needs to do that in the reg season. It would be a horrible stat when the team makes it to the 2nd season without any 4th quarter TDs from Kaep.

      1. Did you know they are like 5th in time of possesion and 1st in drives over 5 mins? They are very similar to the 2011 team. We all forget how frustrating it was to watch that 2011 offense too.

        1. Wilson73 –
          I’m not a hater, I’m a hard ass! I want to see Kaep improve in some key areas. He needs not there yet, and if we can accept that, then we can find ways to make him better. If he player better and more efficiently and effectively, if he starts to develop consistently in the pocket, then the Niners are a better team. That window will not stay open forever.

          1. Fan I wasn’t busting your chops. Rather appreciating the albiet short reprieve from the onslaught.

            Kap does need to improve. I don’t hear anyone saying he doesn’t. I am wondering beyond the QB play if there’s something deeper. This offense and all the GRo offenses have similarities even with different personnel. As Jack pointed out this team is as bad as teh 2011 team in the red zone. I am wondering if Jim needs to take a lesson from John and find a new O coordinator and get someone in with the kind of success Fangio has on defense.

            1. In case you didn’t notice, I only go overboard to show what a hypocrite Bay Fanatic is. Or when he behaves like a bully. Or when people try to make broad assumptions. I also wrote a few things out of sarcasm, and some people took it seriously.

              1. Fan77: Broad assumptions!!! lol. You write a couple posts that mention a few other things the team needs to improve on but then the only specific person you call out is still Kaep. Sarcastic comments are a once in a while thing not a the crusade you have been on exclusively against Kaep. If some of us wouldn’t be busting your B#tt for it you would still be going strong in the same vain. You saying you are only going overboard in response to Bay is total garbage. Trying to change history to avoid responsibility for your agenda will not fly. It is some of us\ that have been reacting to your extreme posts not the other way around.

                Wilson–Why praise someone for becoming less of a Aass. That is a standard that should be expected from everyone and does not deserve praise. Especially since he tried to spin his motivation for his trolling and hating on to someone else. That display of lack of accountability expresses intent and true motivation for the change of tone of his posts. He was getting too much negative feedback from more posters about his over the top anti Kaep posts and is just doing PR damage control. Intent is everything.

                Wilson:

            2. Alot of the limitations now are because Kaep’s not getting it. Maybe he need a new coordinator who could be a better teacher, or a new coach that will put some pressure on him.

              1. Your last comment shows how little you understand about Kaep. He puts perhaps too much pressure on himself. When have you ever heard him put the blame on another player or unit? He hasn’t ever called out the offensive line or wr for not running the right routes or dropping passes. He always response with ” I just have to get better and execute better.

                You along with many others are just not very good at judging character. As Kaep has been accused of being in football, most of you are just first read in respect to character evaluation yourselves.

              2. Will
                Clearly too much caffeine somewhere in your diet at this time of night. Consider Valium.
                (Just trippin’ cuz you’ve made what? 8 of the last 12 posts?) ; >)

              3. @ Willtalk,

                I hear we need to get better out of Kaepernicks mouth a whole lot more often than I need to get better. In fact the I word has only just recently replaced the we. Think that must have come from the PR folks.

            3. Wilson,

              It is something else. It’s th crappy tight end. The one that used to be a pro bowler. The one th as ts out there running around half azzed waiting for another play that he can use for an injury. It will probably be this week against the Skins. That way he can sit out the Seattle game on Thankgiving. The guys been faking it all year because he knows he s under contract and he’s not getting a raise from the team. He’d rather just play it safe the next 2 years so he’s not walking around like Dennis Brown on the post game show. VD is done and he just collecting a check right now. You all see his effort. This is week 11. He’s not hurt. He quit. He’s just a decoy now. He’s not even into it even more.
              He’s killing our offense because he’s a guy that used to stretch the field for us. Now he’s just a decoy and he gets no respect from the defenses because they know he’s not giving 100%. I’m sure we all see it now but with all the injuries this team has had, if he were hurt, we wouldn’t play him just like we’ve not played anyone else hurt. He’s healthy. He’s just a quitter and a fraud.

              1. Didn’t Grant note that they threw to him 6 times last week? I am not big on guessing people motivations. Nor do I think he’s the source of the problem but rather a contributing factor. Kap had to throw to him as the second receiver last year. This year that’s not the case.

              1. Bay Area Hater Fanatic,
                I think you’re the hater. Why don’t you defend your favorite player instead of attacking others who don’t think he’s all that yet. Why do you take it so personal? More importantly, what has Kaep done for you lately? And before you say he’s led to the team to these road wins, why don’t you explain how his failures in the red zone, his inability to make decisive throws in the red zone is anyone’s fault but his own.
                He has so many weapons now, what’s the problem? Why the sorry output of 16 points this week? 23 the week before. 10 against the Rams at home, getting killed by Denver. How come we’re not seeing better results? Explain that without bringing the hate if you can.

                Your bring the hate. Not me.

  7. they are trying to fit the wrong kind of offense for this team. since they signed Kap with the big contract they need to design the offense around him. forget pocket passing, thats not what he is made for. Identity of the 49ers offense is non-exist. they tried pistol for a year, run base next year, then since gore is slowing they are going with pocket passing now? three different types of offense in three years. they need to design an offense where you take advantage of Kap’s mobility and speed. bootlags, reverses, QB draw, etc.etc. the only strength of 49ers offense is the line and Kap’s mobility. they need to wake up next season.

    1. If they move in that direction, the 49ers will be done. The NFL game will always require the QB to play at least 60% from the pocket.
      Defensive players these days are too big, too fast, and too violent. By asking your QB to roll out, play outside the pocket you are basically making him a moving target. Never mind you make it easier for coordinators to defend, you are setting your QB up for high risk injuries.

      1. Young always claimed that he was in more danger in the pocket. He had a lot of experience being blasted in the pocket. Check out the Eagles, Chiefs, and Lions games from his Superbowl year (1994), and the hit that ended his career.

        1. And then look at all the running QB’s in the history of the NFL and tell me their longetivity in the league.
          Besides it’s well documented that Steve Young had to revolutionize his game to become a pocket passer to become an NFL starter.

        2. > Young always claimed that he was in more danger in the pocket.
          yes he indeed has made that claim. But that was his experience. Since then, the league has gone a long way in protecting QBs in the pocket. But once the QB is a runner, that league-mandated protection is gone.

          1. Kaepernick has more protection than Young did when he runs because Young looked like me when he tried and failed to slide. I’m constantly amazed at how fast someone as big as Colin can get down so fast.

        1. The majority of snaps especially on third down come from the pocket. I base this on watching the games. Is it definitive, probably not. But when you look around the league, there are not too many running QB’s. It’s not unreasonable to say that the history of the league sees QB’s needing to play from the pocket in order to win.
          From 2000 til 2014, I count one running QB who won the SB in Wilson and really he isn’t even that.

          1. And Wilson has been more effective running the ball this season than throwing it on many occasions. He is the epitome of a running QB.

      2. For a guy who doesn’t like stats you sure like to pull a few out based on your own opinion Prime.

        There will always be a need for a QB to throw from the pocket, but there are many different ways to go about doing that. It’s not just about dropping back 5-7 steps and surveying the field that dictates throwing from the pocket. Kap needs to learn how to play within the pocket a little better, like sliding instead of running, but he has shown he can play from the pocket when given time. Is he Manning or Rodgers? No, but he is functional enough to have success as long as the playcalling helps him out by moving the pocket at times, and his protection holds up which it hasn’t many times this season.

        As far as running QB’s not having long term success, you’re right in the sense that a QB who runs more than he throws is likely not long for the league, but a QB who runs intelligently and doesn’t take hits, can be effective and play a long time. Young did it his entire career. Cunningham played well into his 30’s. It’s not about the stereotype of a running QB. It’s about playing smart and using the running ability to your advantage which so far Kap is doing very well.

    2. The Niners called a QB draw near the goal line in the Super Bowl. They’ve never called that play again in that situation. Why?

        1. I think you guys should talk about this from Rav4:

          Red-zone offense – it is the scheme and the QB?

          Niners Kansas City

          Pre-Harbaugh
          2007 51.72
          2008 51.92
          2009 57.89
          2010 47.62

          Harbaugh
          2011 40.68
          2012 54.69
          2013 53.03 59.68
          2014 39.39 69.70

    3. Leo— You make a lot of good points especially about the lack of identity. I do not think the Niner’s should totally adapt their offense to Kaeps strengths not do they really have to. That’s putting to many eggs in one basket. I think a lot of their identity problems stem from having to move away from a Gore dominated offense.

      I personally don’t think you can replace Gore. He is a RB with a unique skill set that carried the offense for years. You can not just say that’s our identity when Gore was the main cog of that identity. Reality dictates they have to faze him out, but you can not just change a teams dynamics over night. It might be more workable if they went to a balanced offense first. Which I believe is what they are trying to do. All the injuries, holdouts and locker room drama has not helped at all. Ever since the 2011 prefect storm season the team has been hit with a series of negative misfortunes that have not made the transition any easier. We might consider the circumstances and re-adjust all our expectations to something more realistic.

    4. Problem with Kap is he has speed but zero quickness. He has to be more decisive when he decides to run. Russell Wilson is quick. He killed the Giants with the read option. Kap couldn’t even turn the corner. He couldn’t beat the defensive end to the corner. I know the Giants focused on it more but Kap is just now quick like that.

      1. This is a good point. Kap does have great open-field running speed once he gets going. But he has looked like he is lacking quickness, particularly this season.

      2. Kaep is not elusive. He has breakaway speed which makes him dangerous in the open field. But he rarely gets that chance. He generally has a slow release too and not decisive enough. Russell wilson has escaped a few sacks just by flicking his wrist and throwing it to an RB.

  8. Red-zone offense – it is the scheme and the QB?

    Niners Kansas City

    Pre-Harbaugh
    2007 51.72
    2008 51.92
    2009 57.89
    2010 47.62

    Harbaugh
    2011 40.68
    2012 54.69
    2013 53.03 59.68
    2014 39.39 69.70

      1. Wilsonm73,
        While there has been statistical evidence that shows some coaching flaws, there is also enough evidence of players not executing on plays.

        CK has not been as accurate on his passes, has yet to develop a touch and still locks onto to WR’s on occasion. Kap has shown better patience in the pocket and his decision making his incrementally improved, but he has a way to go.
        But having said that, I believe that he will still be the starting QB for us when we win a Superbowl.

        Our WR’s, who were supposed to be the dependable group on offense have been uncharacteristically unreliable.

        Our O-line has shown some improvement in the last couple of games, but were only a shell of themselves in the first month of the season.

        Heck, even Mr. Reliable, Andy Lee has been slightly erratic.
        Ellington has not been an eye opener in the Return game.
        Dawson remains the stalwart on ST’s.

        The defense has been amazing when you consider so many key components missing. Brooks has not stepped up his game except for the one big play against the saints.
        Yet, the combination of veterans and young players has meshed surprisingly well.

        So, back to the coaches. Sure, they could do a better job in certain situations.
        Roman needs to learn not to out think himself in the redzone, and Harbaugh needs to become much better when the game is on the line in the 4th Qrtr.

        But this team is still improving even if the steps are incremental. And all they need to do is get into the playoffs where I believe they will play their best football.

        1. I agree players have to execute and who’s job is it to help them execute? When players are continually underperforming you have to look at the coaching. Especially when they are all pro’s. As Jack said “something’s broken” in another thread. We don’t see this on the defensive half of the team.

          1. “When players are continually underperforming you have to look at the coaching”

            Why? Why is it the coaches responsibility? The players could be performing exceptionally in practice, executing all their assignments, and look sharp all week. Then game time comes and they don’t. That’s on the players Wilson. Personal preparation is part of it. There is nothing the coaches can do for that. I think your statement is ignorant. These guys are professional athletes and need to raise their performance come Sunday. It could be any number of things but to put it on the coaches is lazy and gives the players an out. Players win games, coaches help but at the end of the day the players have to execute the calls.

            1. FDM, hold off on the name calling. Look at the numbers of production with different personnel and tell me there isn’t a trend? We are very similar to the production we had with Alex Smith, Walker, Moss, Dixon, etc. When the players are different and the production is the same you need to look somewhere else beside the players for answers.

              1. Name calling, what did I call you? I said the statement is ignorant to put it on the coaches all the time. When you look at the production it looks pretty good to me, the team is winning. People looking for better passing numbers or rushing numbers don’t get it. Its about wins.
                The production I’m talking about and lack of it is when players drop passes, false starts, burning timeouts, running incorrect routes, turning the ball over. That’s on the players. You cannot blame the coaches for lack of execution.

              2. You can think my statement ignorant and you’re welcome to your opinion. It just escalates things and doesn’t promote dialogue.

                I never put it on the coaches all the time. I said there was a trend regarding redone offensive production. Read the details of what I said.

                According to you why bother having coaches cause players can do it all themselves? Look at Chicago, Tampa, Oakland. Is that on the players? Those coaches can’t get those teams to play winning football. Look at our 10 years of mediocrity with and then what JH did with the same roster his first year. Was that all the players? Its symbiotic and it takes both.

                I like that we are winning and have never touted gaudy stats.

              3. Wilson says According to you why bother having coaches cause players can do it all themselves? Look at Chicago, Tampa, Oakland. Is that on the players?
                Of course it is. Jay Cutler has underperformed astronomically. Trestman all the sudden didn’t become a bad coach. He looked like a hall of famer against the Niners, what happened since then? The players have to play at a high level, especially your leader. Tampa is rebuilding, and Oakland has no talent.

                As for the red zone efficiency. What are coaches suppose to do when the players fail to execute. Against the Rams, what’s Roman suppose to do when the WR rolls out of bounds on a bad throw or when the QB fumbles a snap? That kills the RZ efficiency percentage.

              4. Yep FDM, what are coaches supposed to do? I guess they’ll get fired is what they’ll do because the players won’t. Management holds them responsible for the player’s performances.

                You continue to miss that I am saying its both players and coaches. Your forcing a position on me that I am not defending nor espousing. Its neither all the players or all the coaches. Its both. Keep running down the line that its all the players fault, I am done.

              5. The thread starting by you saying Thanks that’s what I have been trying to say. ITs a coaching issue.

                Now its both? So Wilson if you don’t want to talk football or challenged on your opinion, don’t post here.

              6. Wilson
                Don’t stop posting here because someone tells you not to; do what you want. I don’t agree with all you write but that’s OK; I’ve been wrong before myself, …..I think it was back in ’67.
                We’re all opinionated on here, and some are combative and confrontational in style while others can disagree while keeping their composure and manners. Personally, I have some good and some not so good days. : >)
                Carry on.

              7. Brothatuna I wasn’t implying he stop posting, just that if your gonna debate something, don’t all the sudden take your ball and go home. Come on, we are all adults and if you cant take a little ribbing then not sure this is the right forum for you. Just saying.

          2. FDM, you’re not reasonable and don’t get to threaten people about who can post here. You can challenge my opinion and tell me I don’t want to talk football, so far that’s all I’ve done.

            I haven’t changed my stance and you haven’t followed all the posts of the thread. The quote you are showing was in response to Rav4’s redzone stats. I believe it to be a coaching scheme issue based on those numbers.

            You made blanket statements and assumed I was blaming the coaches for everything. Not true read my responses to AES. In the end no matter how much you protest coaches will always be responsible for underperforming teams. Players still have to play but if teams fail to execute week after week we all know where the ax will fall. Its on the coaches.

            Fangio’s unit isn’t having the same issues. Rookie players are playing like all pro’s. Why isn’t that happening offense?

            1. Relax junior. You got challenged, and didn’t like the response. Don’t be all pissy about it. Ill remember never to respond to you as you seem to act like a child when someone comes back at you.

              1. “Fangio’s unit isn’t having the same issues. Rookie players are playing like all pro’s. Why isn’t that happening offense?

                Well my guess would be that they are running the same defense as last year and there is an abundance of players on that defense who have played in it. That helps the transition for rookies. On offense the struggles can be attributed to a heavy reliance on timing and chemistry between players. The offensive line has not been consistent with players in and out of the lineup. Losing your starting centre is a huge deal in terms of call and continuity. Its not like defense where you can just step in and play physical. The scheme is much more complicated and timing is huge.
                The Kaepernick struggles are also well documented. There is no consistency in his play from game to game. Add the fact there are new players across the board on offense and it looks to be a new scheme entirely with the 4/5 WR sets.

                So that’s why I say its the players and not the coaches who are getting unwarranted static from guys like you that like to pin it on them. Like I said its lazy. Explain to me how its on the coaches now?

              2. FDM, describe for us the issue then from your perspective. Why are the 49ers so bad in the redzone? Also explain how it will be fixed.

              3. Not sure your example plays out. I may have missed players and you could question Dial and Carradine but they didn’t play. I would also say the offensive unit has had more consistency at the skill/timing positions this year without major injuries to QB, WR and RB as well as TE’s.

                Ward
                D Johnson
                Bethea
                Cook
                Borland
                Dial (played a few snaps)
                Carradine
                Lynch

                Offense
                Lloyd
                S Johnson
                Hyde
                J Martin
                M Martin

              4. Whose responsible for this?

                “it looks to be a new scheme entirely with the 4/5 WR sets.”

                The coaches make the scheme. Therefore carry a huge responsibility to get players ready for success in the new scheme.

        2. AES when you see guys like Stanton, Sanchez and Hoyer performing with clearly less talent than we have it might point to something other or broader than just player execution.

          I am a JH fan. What he’s done here is very impressive and there’s room for improvement. I am not calling for anyone’s head, rather wondering what changes need to be made in the scheme or coaching the players to get better offensive production? I won’t delve into name calling or insulting their intelligence. They more than any of us are aware of how underperforming this offense is.

          1. Wilsonm73,
            Agreed. But the final analysis of the players, coaches, and Org will be better presented at the end of the season.
            We are a playoff team and that is what keeps me optimistic for the rest of the season, but if we fail to make the playoffs – than the roof will cave in.

            1. Agreed AES. I also don’t think there’s one clear source of our issues and why it could be difficult for the coaches and players to figure out. It could be execution by the players like at the Rams with Kap missing the hot reads for blitzing or key 3rd down dropped passes and some poor redone scheming in general in most games by the coaches.

              FDM, If the players are practicing in an environment that best prepares them for game day their performance should be relatively similar. If there’s a drop in performance who’s holding them accountable and attempting to make sure they play better? Its the coaches.

          2. Wilson keep posting your stuff. There is some truth to what you say.

            Take the criticism with a grain of salt. Consider the source.

            1. Yeah Wilson be like Bay. Cry and whine and insult and label people when they don’t agree with you. It’s pretty standard on here for the amount of cry babies whining when people call their BS or hypocrisy!

              1. I was never thinking of stopping posting and I’ll do what I want. I was done posting on that thread as it was a futile conversation and not going anywhere. It wasn’t a matter of being childish or ignorant or even being opposed to my opinion. There was no chance for agreement or civil discussion so I was done where we were just beating our heads against each other’s proverbial walls.

                People read way too much into all of that.

              2. WIlson –
                Win some lose some. You’re a fan regardless. We are not debating climate change or healthcare. Just football.
                Just don’t turn into Bay Area and be a whiny little you know what when the argument doesn’t go your way.

              3. Fan for me its not about winning or losing. I enjoy learning. I glad admit when I am wrong and learn a ton from people here. I learn a lot from both Grant, Scooter and Jack and others.

                My questions come in what happens if the offense doesn’t improve after major personnel changes? What if we still have the same issues over the course of a coaches career here? What then do we do? Where is the issue?

              4. Aren’t you busting my balls on being tough on Kaep?

                If you look beyond all the infighting on this site, and the name calling, the root of my argument is that it’s on Kaep an not anyone else. Not coaches, not other players. His issues are mechanics, and his own instincts to evade and run.His slow development is a major reason for the offense’s inconsistency. Outside critics of Kaep, like Cosell, point to his lack of accuracy and running QB instincts. Prime is saying in the long run Kaep won’t last in this league.
                I’m saying he probably won’t develop into a pocket QB because it’s just not who he is. You might as well ask him to throw left handed.
                The stakes are high because the team has talent and is capable of cometing for the SB.
                Kaep is talented, and has some skills. He also has glaring weaknesses that other teams, who also want to win the SB, will exploit to their advantage.
                Kaep is enigma, it’s a complicated situation but the fix is easy — he has to develop other aspects of his game.

              5. I am on you a bit about that. I’m not sure that’s the solution. I’d love to see what Andrew Luck looked like in our offense. Seems like aside from Rodger, Manning, Brady, Bree’s and potentially Luck everyone feels that way about their QB.

                I’m in Denver and they are bemoaning Manning’s short comings after the loss to the Rams. Its crazy. This is the most talented team in the NFL and they are whining about him.

              6. Learning from jack is something you want to avoid doing…..I don’t know why you need jack to learn number 0……

    1. George—–While your statement does hold merit, a broken thumb/wrist injury can happen to anyone. Doesn’t reflect the size of the person.

    1. I think it may depend on Gore. I think the offer will be on the table for 2-3 yrs, but will it be where Gore feels his value is?

      Fred Jackson is 33 and still going strong, although I doubt his carries are as high as Gore’s.

      It would be a sad day I tell ya.

    2. Two things will dictate whether they bring Gore back imo:

      What he wants as far as term and money

      Who is Coaching the team

      They aren’t going to pay Gore what he made this year and likely will be looking at half of that amount or less. Then there is the fact a new Coaching staff may decide to move on from him for younger options. I think in a perfect world, Gore signs on for two more years at about 2.5 mill per with incentives and retires a Niner. However seeing as though we don’t live in a perfect world, he likely leaves for a few more dollars and puts up a couple of so so years at the end of his career in a different uniform.

      1. Just like so many of the greatest players have done — Montana, Rice, Craig, Lott, and on and on and on. Rice hung on until they flat told him to go away. These guys don’t know how to quit on time.

    3. Man I tell you guys, if he leaves that will be a sad day. My first memories of niner backs are Craig and Rathman. I use to dominate with them on Tecmo Super Bowl. Lol. Ricky Watters was also special. But Gore, man, if he’s not on this team next year Id be disappointed. But it happened with our other greats(montana and rice), He will be no exception.

  9. PFT article this morning about getting a team into LA. Bob Kraft saying there should be two teams there. I dunno.
    >Rams left the Collesium for Anahiem and then to Mo. Now they want back IF someone builds them a stadium.
    >Raiders came and went; were popular early on especially with a SB win; but then left. Old Time Oakland fans welcomed them back; will LA fans be as forgiving? For a losing franchise? Enough to build a stadium?
    >Chargers; sigh. If they go to LA they will lose a good number of San Diegans who have a separate identity to LA. Others will be stuck with them for lack of an alternative. Even after all these years going back to Paul Lowe, Ernie Ladd, and Lance Alworth, San Diego was balking at the stadium deal being proposed. Is LA County going to pick up that tab for a team with no particular roots in the community?
    > Fandom (also known as FanDumb) is based on fans’ personal identification with a team. Can Goodell and Kraft and company manufacture that interest? TBD. Also, SoCal has a history of pretty laconic fans; fair weather and leave-early types. Good luck aid dat.
    None of this looks as seamless as the Big Bidnez Boyz portray it, IMO.

      1. BT ..

        Yer right about Da Lambs and Duh Raiduhs .. both
        agitatin’ the gravel down in lala .. but
        I figured it was because the lambs couldn’t put butts
        in the seats … and in the case of duh raiduhs ..
        it was because Al Davis was greedy..
        either way …even
        with a spiffy, brand new hi-tech stadium … I doubt
        they’ll fill it up, unless (Wrestlemaina comes to town)

        LA doesn’t strike me as an NFL town …

        (It’s Lakers and Clippers for them, instead)

    1. BT,

      I think LA is really no different from San Diego in terms of fan interest and habits. The Chargers have struggled for years to sell out games with very good teams. The Southern Cal market just has way too many options which is why I’m surprised the league is trying so hard to move teams back in there. I guess it’s just the stigma of not having a team in the second largest market in the country.

      My guess is the Rams will wind up moving back first. Their owner bought land in Inglewood and really hasn’t tried very hard to work out a deal to keep the team in St. Louis.

      I really think the Spanos family wants to have the team in San Diego and will exhaust every possibility before considering a move to LA.

      The Raiders are a wildcard at this point. There’s been speculation that they will get a new stadium in Oakland through the development company trying to build the area, but there is also the fact San Antonio is making a strong push for the Raiders as well. I can’t see Davis moving the team to Texas so it is pretty much leveraging the Oakland deal or he will also agree to move back to LA.

      1. If the Raiders fail in their decades old struggle to get to LA, I think being the closest pro football venue to San Francisco is a pretty good consolation prize. (not one they deserve, after stabbing their fans in the back when they moved south in the first place). All they have to do is avoid completely stinking as an organization.

        1. I used to live down there. Life IS laid back. Go to a game? Sure; ……or go to the beach. If there’s no ‘curves’ in the water (surf) there are plenty of ‘curves’ on the beach. Just saying’. I used to live three houses up from the beach; I hardly went anywhere; didn’t need to.

  10. I thought I’d share something funny:

    This was Charlie Campbell’s (Walterfootball.com) 2014 NFL Combine recap on Aaron Lynch.
    “South Florida defensive end Aaron Lynch (6-5, 249) continues to show that he made a mistake by entering the draft. His body is clearly underdeveloped for the NFL.”

    You’re an ass clown Charlie!

    I knew Lynch was going to be a stud but I was not sure about Borland. These two dudes are game changers man!…..Yet they are built so different.
    The “wandering albatross” has the longest wingspan of any bird on the planet (up to 11 feet)……reminds me of Lynch.
    Borland is more of an alligator or T-Rex by comparison.

    The future looks bright for Niner D.

    1. Good to see ya back on here my man. I had hopes for Cam Johnson and Corey Lemonade and so I was chillin’ on Lynch but he’s really coming along. Borland is a throwback guy; reminds me a bit of Riki Ellison; major compliment from me right there.

        1. ‘Oh God’ LOL that whole tape is funny.
          I always remember Jindal from another comment that I think was part of that same Response speech. Jindal made some smirky snarky remarks about how stupid it was to spend Federal dollars on volcano research since it wasn’t America’s problem.
          That set off the geologist (amateur) in me.
          13 states have volcanos, minimum
          At least 9 others have recorded seismic events.
          Every coastal state (23) has a tsunami risk from offshore volcanic and/or seismic activity. Including his home State of Louisiana from the Carribean Arc. Add 7 more since the Great Lakes are capable of an earthquake-generated tsunami also.
          I pretty much ignore Bobby now. It was also funny seeing Olbermann who is just as irrelevant.
          “No man is safe when Congress is in session.” Mark Twain

    2. I was sold on Aaron Lynch’s talent after watching his high school all star game and a Notre Dame scrimmage… just out of high school, raw as can be.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDxITkekPvE

      The question marks were his attitude, history and state of mind. At USF he was scrawny.

      So… Aaron had for more big plays in two scrimmage games at the age of 18-19 then he did his entire career at USF. Impressive but also alarming.

      I was super glad Baalke picked him in the 5th round. Top pass rushers who also set the edge and play heady football are rare… yet supremely important. If Aaron had a 20% change of getting his act together, he was worth gambling a lousy 5th rounder.

        1. 1986 Draft

          First Round – None
          Second Round – Larry Roberts
          Third Round – Tom Rathman, McKyer, John Taylor
          Fourth Round – Charles Haley, Steve Wallace, Kevin Fagan
          Sixth Round – Don Griffin

  11. @ FDM-
    I wasn’t intending to call you out, except what I perceived as ‘don’t post’. I may have over-reacted, but in a way I was saying the same thing; plenty of elbows in the paint.

    1. Thanks for the link KY49er. The article is deceiving. Jay Gruden is quoted as saying “we looked at him very closely in the draft and really liked him a lot..” and the author extrapolates that as “Washington wanted Borland in the draft”. I’m sure a lot of GM’s and coaches want Borland now, but that was not the sentiment back in April. He was being knocked for being too slow, too short, etc.

    1. $6.00/lb. in shell right off the boat at dockside. More at the market. Much more in the restaurant. It’s a good year for Humboldt and Dungeness. Oh, you meant…..

  12. Waaaay off subject but I was flippin channels last night and came across some lame “retirement community” gathering…. Then I realized it was the freaking CSPAN channel….OMFG! …these half-dead lunatics are making important decisions? I know U.S. senators must be at least 30 years old but they can be over a hundred??? I truly respect the elderly (I’m getting there) but this is BS man!

    Sorry….back to Niner football.

    1. Years ago I was muttering at the dinner table with the tv news going. My daughter says ‘Dad, why do you call the Senate the Liars’ Club?’
      “Because they’re lying.”
      ‘How do you know they’re lying?’
      “Because their lips are moving” (She was 14, she might’ve thought it was original)
      My wife sez: “Don’t worry. Daddy’s just trippin’!”

  13. Looks like Brooks was benched for lashing out at Tomsula — didn’t take himself out of the game. Sounds apologetic and contrite. Time to move on and win the next 6 games.

    1. My question would be why is he not in someone’s team or practice squad now? He has the build, speed(supposedly), but character issues kept him off of NFL teams. Just doesn’t sound right. Teams take kids with character issues all the time.

      1. Yeah, KY .. my thoughts exactly..
        I’m thinkin’ … maybe the niners will have him in
        for a look-see ..
        (in the off season)

        I mean … just in case they say adios to Crabtree

    2. At OSU he couldn’t hack it when they didnt have any worthwhile WR on their roster. pass on him, id rather give Qpat a look

  14. “Brooks explained that he lashed out at defensive line coach Jim Tomsula on the sideline about the substation pattern, which led the team to bench him for the remainder of the 16-10 victory over the Giants. Brooks said that he “can’t bring that attitude to the team” and that he has since apologized to Tomsula and his teammates.”

    Case closed!!!

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