Vernon Davis confirms he’s holding out

Last Wednesday, I wrote a column explaining why Vernon Davis has leverage over the 49ers, and that he may choose to not attend this week’s mini-camp unless the 49ers renegotiate his contract first.

Today, Vernon Davis wrote a column for SI.com confirming that he is indeed holding out. “I’m playing at a higher level than I was then, which brings me to why I’m holding out,” Davis wrote. “It’s all about getting paid what you deserve. It’s not that complicated. I want the 49ers to win the Super Bowl, and I want to be on the field this summer working toward that goal, but I have to worry about my future first.”

Stay tuned. We will see what happens at mini-camp tomorrow.

  1. I’m not sure how Vernon can objectively think he deserves a raise

    I can understand him wanting an extension with more guaranteed money.

    As he said, he was paid the biggest contract for a TE in history at the time back in 2010. Vernon is now the 3rd highest paid TE in the league and will probably drop to 4th or 5th in the next couple of years. His rationale is that he was paid as the highest paid TE in 2010 and now he’s better. But any objective measure of his situation would have to compare his performance to other TEs in the league and while Davis is one of the best in the league, I think it’s safe to say that VERNON IS NOT THE BEST TE in the league. Graham, Gronkowski (when healthy), Witten…are all better or arguably better TEs. So his contract relative to the other TEs in the league needs to be considered.

    As for Fantex, unless Vernon had some personal financial issues come up, I can’t understand why he would choose to put his professional life under scrutiny (and by extension probably his personal life going forward) just for $4M of up front money. The whole Fantex thing I think is kind of shady IMO. I understand it to a certain degree. But a player’s every professional and personal move will be under scrutiny. When Vernon is in his 60’s and he wants to go on vacation or has on offer to go speak and sign autographs for the Loyal Order of Water Buffalo Lodge…he’s got to explain why he’s passing up on an income opportunity to his share holders.

    1. You mean like he just “passed up” 200k for working out for 10 weeks (approximately)? Interesting that Fantex pays Vernon 4M up front in part to “hold out” on a contract that included (wait for it) up front money.

      Now, whether Vernon is willing to give up what is approximately 200k for each week of playing this fall is another matter entirely.

    2. I agree affp, I find it hard to understand why he wants a raise. I’m still of the belief this is about getting an extension, but not really about getting a higher average salary (or not much of one at any rate.

      As I’ve said many times now, this is an extension that makes sense for both parties. But looks like Vernon is going to play hardball now.

        1. “You’d be against giving Davis an extra $2 million per season?”

          That would make Davis the highest paid TE in the league.

        2. Absolutely Grant. He’s the wrong side of 30. You want him getting paid $9M per year on average the next 4-5 years? That would be crazy.

          No, any extension should keep him paid around $7M – $7.5M per annum.

          1. I meant an extra $2 million next season, so he’d actually be making closer to $7 million in base salary.

            1. you’ve gotta get off this base salary thing. it’s pointless and it ruins your credibility.

              1. as it stands the Niners are $10M over the salary cap next year (that is of course if the cap doesn’t move, which it will….but it still means they’re tight next year).

              2. $2M next year would put him at $9M which puts him far and away as the highest TE….again IMO extortion.

              1. If you factor in the signing bonus, Davis still will earn less than Jimmy Graham, Marcedes Lewis and Jason Witten next season. Davis is more important to his team than those three are to their teams.

              2. It’s about the entire size of the contract Grant; not what he will make in a given year. He is not underpaid.

              3. yes, he slips to #4. that’s what happens when people sign comparable contracts in the later years of a your contract. he got his money up front. Davis is adequately compensated.

              4. Davis’ value has nothing to do with other tight ends. Davis’ value has to do with how important he is to the 49ers.

            2. If they extend his contract I expect he would actually make more than $7M in 2014, in cash terms, while keeping his salary cap hit around $7M.

            3. Vernon is not more important to the 49ers than Jimmy Graham is to the Saints. JG led his team in not only TDs (yes, so did VD), but also in yards. Yes Vernon was one of our only deep threats, which is what you’ve used to overemphasize his value. But the reality is that teams DIDN’T respect that speed, which is one of the reasons he was able to put up his numbers (albeit far lower than JG). The niners faced more stacked boxes than anyone in the league, so the argument that his speed opened other elements of the offense is simply not supported in fact. I like VD, but he doesn’t deserve a new contract and isn’t the most valuable TE in the league.

              1. The Saints’ offense still would be dominant without Graham. Brees and Payton don’t need Graham. The 49ers absolutely need Davis.

              2. Colston was 27th in regular season receiving yards and Kenny Stills was 61st. I agree that VD is very important to the niners, but at 37th in the league in receiving yards, he is not more important to the 49ers than JG (15th) is to the Saints.

              3. Graham has 135 targets and 538 snaps in route compared to 82/401 for Davis. Graham finished 2013 averaging .15 yards more in yards per route run.

        3. I would be against giving Vernon one extra penny until he shows up for offseason activities.

          I feel the same way about Boone. And the truth is, plenty of teams hold to that standard–we won’t negotiate with players who are holding out.

          1. Crab, maybe you could pull an Ace Ventura, sneak in there dressed like a UPS guy and get a chance to meet Vernon. then you could try to talk some sense into his knuckle head. you could say; “Dude, this season is the one where it’s all supposed to come together, all the pieces are here to steamroll through the regular season, win the division back from those frauds up north and reclaim the title of World Champions! Except, you’re trying real hard to ruin everything by being a greedy, self-serving jerk! Knock this crap off and get back to work with your boys. The Lombardi Trophy is there for the taking! Surely you want a shot at football immortality and a Super Bowl ring more than a measly 2 Million more a year? Right?”

              1. Lee9er – Nice to know there’s some Niner bloggers in the neighborhood….I probably shouldn’t give out VD’s address but the cross streets are Main st. and Upper drive. Zip is 92881. Closest High School is Santiago.

    3. Fantex is the problem.Iam no lawyer but I understand the law enough.Vernon contractually has to use his best efforts to make more money,and by holding out for more money he is upholding his part of the agreement with Fantex.If he chose not to do this he could be sued for breach of contract,and Fantex could want their 4 million dollars back from Vernon.Unless Vernon returns the money,he has do try all this nonsense.Big mistake

    4. I think the issue here thats causing all this back and forth is one easily settled. Rocket is stating his opinion from a idealistic point of view while Grant is living in the real world. When the 49ers gave him that bonus they knew that bonus wouldnt keep him happy for the whole contract. It only does in the event that the player has declined by the end of the contract. Davis still is a beast and is vital to our 2014 and beyond and i would hate to see the 1st season in our new house go to crap over 2 million. You take our deep threat away and the walls will come caving in, period. He didnt decline last year his role was altered to best fit our team.

      1. It’s quite the opposite actually. What Grant is suggesting rarely happens in the NFL. Players don’t get to renegotiate a contract with two years left very often if ever.

        You are also assuming that this problem could be solved with two million and I’m not sure where or how you got that idea. If you’ve been reading some of the stories out there, Davis is watching the Jimmy Graham grievance and has commented on the fact Graham deserves to be paid like a WR. If you put two and two together you’ll see that Davis likely wants to be paid more like a WR than a TE as well and this holdout will coincide with that hearing.

        None of us know how much Davis wants, but the simple fact is there’s nothing more to give without screwing up the cap. The team cannot, and I believe won’t, give into his demands.

    5. I suggest not ruling out the possibility that this is as much an “ego trip” as anything else. Issuing his own publically traded stock (how many people do that?), appearance on a national sports talk show, being quoted in PFT, an article in MMQB, my Lord! It’s “look at me!” on a grand scale. The guy is devolving.

  2. His passion for the game is fading like his blocking did in 2013. KC is hanging from the cobwebs in his mind every time he attempts to make a catch when he’s nearby. If I’m Baalke, I ignore VD and Boone and their feeble attempt at extortion…..

    1. I think the Niners can get by without Boone. They’re ability to develop guards seems to be pretty good; especially since they have all of mini-camp and training camp to get Looney, Kilgore and Martin prepared.

      Tight End is another matter. McDonald showed he wasn’t ready for prime time last season at the #2 TE spot. I’m not sure how much more he’s shown during OTAs. So I think the Niners are in a tougher spot at the TE position…which I’m sure Vernon knows too.

      1. Anybody can be replaced in including Davis. It means changing up what you do to fit the players you have, in other words: Coaching. Davis is a key part of this offense no question, but that is because they run the style of offense they do. If they don’t have Davis then the obvious solution is to devise a scheme that takes advantage of the WR’s they have. I’m not concerned about the blocking side as McDonald did pretty well in that area and could take over Davis’ responsibilities in that area. The biggest change would be a WR taking his role in the passing game.

        1. The Niners need a deep threat to open up space for the running game and the possession receivers. Unfortunately for the Niners, Davis is their only deep threat.

          1. They can send anybody deep. They did it with Crabtree in 2011, with a washed up Moss, Kyle Williams etc. It’s great to have a speedster, but at the end of the day a defense has to account for any receiver that runs a deep route so this idea that the only guy that can do it is Davis is flawed. How many times did they actually call deep routes for Davis? I don’t think it was very many.

          2. Grant, when are you going to give up on this “deep threat” obsession of yours. You’re starting to sound like Al Davis.

            The Niners aren’t a vertical passing team; it’s not in Harbaugh’s DNA. A speed guy would be nice to go over the top in certain situations but it’s a gadget like all the other trick arrows like the fly sweep and the read option.

              1. that’s part of most NFL passing attacks.

                Walsh triangles, TE, Flanker and (in Walsh’s days a HB in the flat). two guys to stretch a high low zone and one to beat out man coverage. one of them is going to be open. unless the defense doesn’t honor the other side of the formation..the split end and other receivers on that side (in the old days it was a fullback or halfback these days it’s a slot receiver or a 2nd TE)…in which case the defense rolls coverage to the strong side of the formation….say if a QB tends to throw to the right more often.

          3. Wow! This is the first time I’ve ever disagreed with you grant. Davis should be fined by the NFL for his attempt to extort money and breach of contract.

        2. “Anybody can be replaced in including Davis.”

          The 49ers offense was horrible when Davis was out last year.

          1. Yep because they were also without Crabtree. The year before Davis went a number of games without even catching a pass.

            1. No, the field becomes ridiculously compressed when Davis isn’t on it. Without Davis, the 49ers have the slowest receivers in the NFL.

              1. Again, this year was an anomaly because they didn’t have Crabtree. In 2012 Davis was an afterthought for a number of games until the playoffs. They struggled without Davis last year because they didn’t have Crabtree and had one receiver (Boldin) that they could count on. This season they have a deep and talented depth chart at WR that can overcome the loss of Davis should he decide foolishly to hold out.

              2. I have no doubt the WR’s on the depth chart will make up for Davis’ loss in the passing game. They can run anybody deep and open up the underneath zone. A defense has to account for any body that runs a deep route.

            2. In 2012 Davis caught passes in 17 out of 19 games, and even when he wasn’t targeted he had an impact by drawing attention and opening up other receivers.

              1. He had 41 catches and 5 TD’s for the season Jack. He was not the juggernaut Grant is making him out to be now. Attracting attention is great, but any receiver that goes out on a route attracts attention. The truth is his role was reduced greatly in 20012, and while he caught a lot of TD’s last year, his receptions only increased by 11 and that is without Crabtree being in the lineup for most of the year. His role as a receiver in this offense has actually gone down the past couple of years; not up.

                He is a great player and an important piece to this offense, but he is not irreplaceable, especially not this year with the WR talent they’ve added.

              2. Vernon Davis attracts an inordinate amount of attention when he runs deep. You should know that, but then again you think he didn’t run deep very much last year. Go buy the coach’s film.

              3. Actually I asked how many times he ran deep and said I didn’t think it was very often, but I admit I’m just guessing and could be wrong about that.

                What I do know is, that half of his receptions were within 10 yards of the LOS and 9 were 20 yards or more down field.

              4. Davis was on pace to match his production from 2011 through the first 10 games of 2012, and then they stopped looking at him until the postseason when he lit it up again.

                That being said, Davis’ impact of the 49ers offense and passing game is not completely visible in the stats.

              5. Yup. If you go back and watch Davis’ game against the Seahawks in 2012 when he caught zero passes, he was getting double-covered and triple-covered when he ran deep.

              6. “I asked how many times he ran deep”

                23 times. Davis finished the season with 6 TD’s on targets over 20 yards tied with Josh Gordon. Only DeSean Jackson, and A.J. Green had more.

                Davis had a percentage of deep targets per target of 28%, highest in the league among WR’s and TE’s.

              7. Nobody is saying he doesn’t have an impact. What I’m saying is you both are overstating his value and importance to the team when compared to what he’s produced on the field. He caught 6 passes in the final 6 games of 2012 while Crabtree thrived. They don’t need Davis to be successful in the passing game and it’s been proven.

                Are they better with him? Absolutely, but this idea that he holds all the cards because they can’t survive without him is complete nonsense. They can survive just fine and even thrive if they use more 3 WR sets to compensate for his loss and McDonald takes the next step.

              8. 23 times. Davis finished the season with 6 TD’s on targets over 20 yards tied with Josh Gordon. Only DeSean Jackson, and A.J. Green had more.

                How does 23 deep routes compare to others around the league?

                Davis had a percentage of deep targets per target of 28%, highest in the league among WR’s and TE’s.

                That’s great but we aren’t talking about percentage per deep target. We are talking about how many times he went deep and how it compares to others around the league.

              9. They’ve proven the passing offense can thrive without Davis catching passes. Again, I’m not saying he’s not important to the team. I’m saying you are off in hyperbole land when talking about Davis being the key to the SB and the team not being able to produce without him.

              10. Davis’ presence on the field creates space for others. Davis is the only 49er who defenses fear deep. He creates much more space for others than any other 49er could next season.

              11. I don’t think the Niners have proven their passing game can thrive in general. It’s sort of been the secondary focus to the run game in terms of philosophy and execution. And they’ve rarely thrived when they have to lean on their passing game for more than a few series at a time. The passing game is still almost entirely dependent on the run game to set it up both tactically and strategically. Some would say that’s a limitation of Kaepernick, the receivers and Harbaugh/Roman. Others would say it’s been a succesful conservative approach so far.

              12. Davis’ presence on the field creates space for others. Davis is the only 49er who defenses fear deep. He creates much more space for others than any other 49er could next season

                You’ve said this already and I already said that they can send anybody deep and the defense has to react to it. Davis is a key part of this offense but he is not irreplaceable especially with the talent they’ve added at WR.

              13. Carolina regular season game:

                with Davis, 6-9, 43 yards 77.54 QB Rating
                w/o Davis, 5-13, 49 yards, 1 int 17.78 QB Rating

              14. Just one example of how the 49ers passing game goes, or doesn’t, without Davis on the field.

              15. There’s nothing to spell out. Losing Davis left the passing game with Boldin and not much else. If Crabtree had been healthy it’s a different story.

                This year they will also add Stevie Johnson and possibly Brandon Lloyd. A game like you just posted is precisely why they made these types of moves. They understand that the depth was poor and they’ve rectified that with these additions.

              16. Defenses can double-cover Crabtree and Boldin and cover McDonald with a linebacker. Safeties can play closer to the line of scrimmage when Davis isn’t on the field.

              17. I don’t think anyone will be covering Brandon Lloyd — he may not make the team. He’d be the sixth receiver, because Patton and Ellington will make the team.

                And let’s see Stevie Johnson play a while without injuring his hamstring.

              18. Doesn’t make any difference Grant. If you double cover two receivers and hope a LB can cover McDonald which I doubt they’ll be able to do as he gets more experience, then you leave yourself open for whoever is playing as the 3rd WR. Lloyd may not make it, but he’s going to make it tough to cut him and Johnson had played nearly every game the previous 3 years before last season.

                You can spin it any way you like, but the team will cope without Davis. They’ve played without him being much of a factor before and now have the best WR depth chart they’ve had since Harbaugh arrived.

              19. Opposing defenses will be more than happy to take away Boldin and Crabtree and force the Niners to throw to McDonald, Johnson/Patton and Miller. That’s a win for the opposing defense every time.

              20. He’s one of the best in the league at that trick, though. And the Niners need that trick. Without that trick, the 49ers’ offense becomes so much easier to defend. It’s night and day.

              21. Opposing defenses will be more than happy to take away Boldin and Crabtree and force the Niners to throw to McDonald, Johnson/Patton and Miller. That’s a win for the opposing defense every time.

                I disagree and a defense wouldn’t stick with the strategy very long. There are ways to get receivers open as we see regularly with Boldin. Defenses can be beaten if they decide to double one receiver, nevermind two and the Niners are setup to do it better than most with the depth chart at WR they now possess.

              22. Yes he did because he was all the Niners had and defenses knew it. That won’t be the case with the WR’s they have added and Crabtree being healthy.

              23. I’m late to the party, but I think it is pretty obvious Davis is a significant part of the 49ers offense. Even when he’s not the primary target he is a guy the defense needs to keep tabs on. He makes for a good decoy.

                In saying that, even if we ignore the impending holdout, if the 49ers lost Davis for an extended period of time this season (to an injury, for example) they are in a position at WR where they can take up that slack much better than they’ve been able to previously in the Harbaugh era. This is a very deep and talented WR group, and while there are no true burners, there are guys at WR that can provide a deep threat.

                The 49ers need to figure out how badly this offense needs Davis now that they have a good group of WRs.

          2. yup, one of the reasons is because the Niners like to use Play Action. So Davis either pass blocks or (more likely) runs a route out of run personnel and a run formation. It’s harder to sell play action if the opposing defense doesn’t respect your TE or watches if he’s being subbed in certain situations.

            another reason is because Kaep still likes to see his guys get open. Vernon’s strength is to run by linebackers and safeties to get open. less about route running, reading of defenses and synched anticipation by TE and QB.

    2. I wouldn’t even talk to him about an extended contract. he has 2 yrs left on the
      current one, and if he wants to give up all that money, that’s his problem. I think
      in 2 more yrs. he won’t be worth the money he wants, and he knows this, so that is why he is trying to get more money .

      1. And if the Niners want to seriously hurt their Super Bowl chances next season over a couple million, that’s their problem.

        1. When you make a comment like this it shows you don’t understand the big picture Grant. It’s not the couple of mill that is the biggest issue. It’s the renegotiating of a contract with two years left on it. As soon as a team does that, it opens them up to every other player on the team trying to make the same claim and pointing to this as the precedent.

          This team is already at the cap limit for next year with an estimated jump of 10 mill. Every dollar means something, and giving a raise to a TE who is now over 30, being paid top market value and signed for two more seasons is not good business. If Davis wants an extension, then it has to carry some value for the team as well. He’s not getting another big bonus or large amount of guaranteed money which is likely what he is angling for. There is no reason for the team to do so.

          1. No, you don’t get the big picture, Rocket. The Niners already opened themselves up when they renegotiated Kaepernick. The amount of years left on the deal has nothing to do with it.

            1. Sorry Grant but you are completely wrong with this point of view. Just look around the league and give me some examples of teams redoing contracts with multiple years left on them vs. extending a player with a year left on his deal. It’s not even comparable and you are either willfully playing ignorant because you refuse to ever concede an argument, or you have a lot to learn about the business of the NFL.

              1. Easy. The Steelers renegotiated Ben Roethlisberger’s contract in 2008 when he had two years left on his deal. Now he has two years left on his current deal and the Steelers are about to renegotiate it again.

                You wanting to prove me “completely wrong” made you overlook a significant example.

              2. Lol, you completely ignored the question.

                How many deals get done with a player having multiple years left on a contract vs. deals with players who have one year left? For every Roetlisberger there are countless deals done with players who have one year left.

                The underlying point is, teams regularly do extensions when a player has one year remaining. They rarely do it when a player has more than one year remaining. In other words redoing a contract with one year left on it has not opened teams up to having to redo contracts with multiple years remaining.

              3. No, you completely ignored my response. Teams renegotiate early if the player is important enough, which Roethlisberger is and VD is. It’s not about the number of years left on the contract, as I already said.

              4. You didn’t answer the question Grant, and Roethlisberger getting a new deal doesn’t lead to a TE getting a new one. A deal like Roethlisbergers is the exception; not the norm.

              5. Davis is the most important player on the 49ers’ offense, just like Roethlisberger is the most important player on the Steelers’ offense.

              6. Doesn’t matter. The QB is the most important player on the field and Kap is no exception. They can’t win without him making plays both throwing and running. You can’t even make a case for the running game anymore considering it was anemic in Seattle and Kap made up for it.

              7. Yes, Kap is an exception. Vernon Davis is more important to the 49ers’ 2014 offense than Kaepernick. Josh Johnson can hand the ball off and throw deep to Vernon Davis, too.

              8. “….can hand the ball off and throw deep to Vernon Davis, too.”

                You’re consistent. Remember you making a similar comment after the 2011 season.

              9. The available evidence leads me to say no, plus I’ve said in the past that I think the 49ers could win 9-10 games with almost anyone at QB.

              10. How many games do you think the 49ers would win this season if Davis retired tomorrow?

              11. How many games do the Niners win if Vernon’s hold out is successful, and guys like Staley, Crabs and Iupati also then hold out for the same reason?

              12. They’d only win 6 games without Davis? Hah you guys crack me up. This board is the place to come for nutty opinions and predictions that’s for sure.

            2. Grant why don’t you just come right out with your real rational for this. They extended Kaep who you don’t feel is a good QB and now you use the situation with Davis to make that point. You had to backtrack with the criticism of Kaeps contract when you acknowledge ( I think ? ) that it wasn’t as bad as you had assumed. Would you still hold your same point if Kaep had not been extended? You seem to use his extension as part of your argument. What is really behind your push to validate Davis’s justification for a renewal. Is it like the bubble of air in wall paper that when pushed down in one place resurfaces in another spot?The bubble being the Kaepernick contract resurfacing in the Davis contract.

              Saying that Davis is the most important player on the Niner team is a slam of Kaep. That’s your hidden agenda for this issue isn’t it. By elevating Davis you diminish Kaep.

              Trying to to make comparisons between the two is nothing but a stretch. For one this is not Davis’s first contract but he has already been extended once. Most people realize that a player, especially QB not taken in early first are vastly underpaid unless they are busts. If they are resigned they are going to get significant raises. I mean both Kaep and Wilson were getting far less than their backups for the last two years.

              One reason the Niner’s extended Kaep this season is that they were convinced that his value and price would go up the longer that they waited. Not only because they expected the level of his play to go up but that there would be more competition if he hit the free agency market. The longer they waited the higher the cost would be. Now with Smith the exact opposite is in play. His market value in two seasons will go down not up. It is not to their advantage at all the restructure his contract. In two drafts they will also have the opportunity to find a replacement if not through free agency.

              The other thing you are not considering is the precedent and repercussions it would send through out the organization. While Davis is important to the team the cost to extend him under these conditions is not worth the long term price. It isn’t just about the money but setting a standard for negotiations that will affect how other contracts are dealt with in the future. Your suggested response to Davis’s threats are reflective of kid in school that gives up his lunch money to the bully.

              Davis’s continued waffling is indicative of someone who is being influenced by others. It’s not what he wants to do rather what others convince him to do. He pretty much articulated as much when he said he will listen to his advisers. Those advisers are reflective of the scumbags that have run down this country economically. Of course you and others in your age category have been conditioned to think of these types of business practices as normal. I they have his ear if he continues to hold out then it would be best to dump him while they can still get value from him. Believe me he will want more than he is worth.

        2. Grant I don’t think you realize that before last year Stevie Johnson was considered a top ten receiver in the nfl. Teams are scared of him. When revis island was big he was the only receiver having success against revis. He might scare teams more than Crabtree and Boldin who both scare teams a lot. Also the niners have Quinton patton who might be the biggest suprise this year. While davis is important Greg Roman can find other creative ways to help spacing.

            1. The only young QB I’d take over Wilson is Luck, and the only running back I’d take over Lynch is Peterson.

              1. That’s reassuring. I waffle back and forth sometimes. But I think PCarroll’s restricted RW passing game in order to protect the ball. I think he’ll be passing more this year.

              2. Grant: P.S.: Interesting tidbit: I read awhile back that when the Colts released PManning Pete Carroll actively pursued him. He wasn’t in the least interested and wouldn’t even visit, if I recall.

  3. His comments seem weird to me. Either he has lost perspective on his own or his entourage of yes men have done it for him or it is some sort of posturing that he thinks will get him leverage. I wouldn’t have assumed that he wanted more money. I would have guessed that he wanted to retire as a niner and wanted an extension while still in his prime to get the most dollars in his extension instead of at age 32 when skills are in decline.

    1. i think I can provide Vernon’s answers to your comments:

      1. Vernon’s skills have showed no sign of decline. Tony Gonzales played at a high level well into his late 30′s.

      2. Vernon’s desire for more money is based on his belief that should be payed like a Wide Receiver and not a Tight End. It’s the same argument Jimmy Graham is making. The argument being that despite where they line up (which is less relevant in Graham’s case since the Saints line him out wide frequently and rarely as him to block), both TEs are primary receivers in their offenses (ie. Davis has more TD receptions than anyone else on the Niners for the past several years).

      1. @AFFP
        Perhaps that’s what Vernon is thinking, but do YOU think he should be played at WR? Other than some change-of-pace alignments I don’t.

        1. I think he should play out the contract that he signed as I do not believe he is underpaid by TEs or WR standards.

          I think that he and all future TEs should have added to their contracts that if they make X number of receptions or are in the top 2-3 in receiving on their team…or other stipulations that they should be given bonus compensation and for every year they perform at such levels; will be considered WRs for franchise tag purposes.

      2. allforfunnplay– Initially I might have accepted that as Davis’s wish. The fact remains that his perspective and plans change continually. As for example him changing his mind about going to mini-camp. The people that have his ear are investment brokers. They are scum. What they sell has nothing to do with value rather manipulation of perception. They are akin to the people who run pyramid schemes. Also the ones that created the stock market crash that the government stupidly chose to bail out. You just can not win dealing with individuals with that mind set. Davis’s perspective changes every day. That is not a good sign. I can see why his advisers are doing what they are doing. They need to make money off of him or their Brand also suffers. They are willing to throw Davis’s career under the bus for that purpose. Davis is a fool if he thinks they have his best interests at heart.

  4. Blog Fantasy Football

    I’m hosting a blog FFL along with the annual blog pick’em. I’ll wait until a bit later for the pick’em sign ups but I want to give the fantasy teams more time to get people signed up. At the moment I have a single 12 team league created. Once that one is full If there are enough I will create a second one as well. No Fee, bragging rights only.

    If you are interested I unfortunately need your email. I prefer to use Yahoo FF but it appears the only means I have of inviting people to the league is to have their email. So if you are OK posting it here then by all means go ahead otherwise you can send it to bretly88@yahoo.com. Once I have your email I will send an invite. Everyone is invited. The only rule that I will try to enforce is that your team name is your blog name.

    Currently the draft is set for Sunday August 24th at 1030 am pst.

    Grant if you’d prefer I didn’t post this just say so and I’ll stop.

        1. I have a spare laptop that would work fine for running a team. Let me know and we can work something out to get it to you.

    1. Invite emails have been sent to those that have responded. Please let me know if don’t receive it. Slots still available for those that want to join.

  5. Foolish move by Davis. The TDs may have gone up but his overall play was down last season, especially his blocking. This also opens the opportunity for the offense to work on utilizing their WR talent more.

      1. That means nothing other than triggering bonus’ in a contract. Brandon Flowers was voted to the pro bowl last year too. It’s a popularity contest and nothing more.

        Davis has to come to the realization that he’s been paid fairly and that big bonus he got up front counts as part of his salary over the next two years.

        There is no reason for the team to redo a deal with two years left on it, in fact it would be bad business to do so.

        1. Unfortunately he won’t this does not look like it will end in either the Niner’s best interests or Davis’s either. Davis’s advisers have neither’s interests at heart. Davis is a milk cow that has gone dry and they are advising him into a desperate move to recoup their investment and reputation and are willing to throw Davis’s career down the toilet to do so.

        1. The Niners opened themselves up to this when they renegotiated the contract of a player who has been to zero Pro Bowls.

          1. it’s not an apt comparison or comparable situation. that’s a stretch in reasoning and you know it. Kaepernick was on a rookie contract. So the dependency in his pay and his position and play level (even considering he’s not a pro bowler) is huge. Compared to Davis who is already the 3rd highest paid TE in the league and at the time was signed to the highest paying contract for a TE in the league.

            1. The Niners set the precedent that they’re paying for future performance with Kaepernick. So they have to pay for Davis’ future performance, too. They can’t say they paid him a lot in the past and he should be happy with that. That’s inconsistent.

              1. The problem is that his overall performance went down last season and could be a sign of things to come.

              2. At his age the likelihood of his performance improving is minimal so this is even more reason not to re do the contract. The contract takes Davis to 32 and into his 33rd year. There is little chance his performance goes up from there.

              3. He’s currently underpaid at $4 million per season. He’s currently a bargain for the 49ers. He deserves more than $6 million per season.

              4. and how have they set that precedence?

                answer these questions:

                what should Kaepernick be making based on his current level of play?

                what degree of financial commitment should the Niners have made based on his current level of play?

                how is this different than what Kapernick did receive?

                and as an objective measure: what do you consider an average NFL starting QB’s salary should be?

              5. Grant how can you use base salary as part of the argument? His average yearly compensation which also takes it account his signing bonus, roster bonus and workout bonus is over $7M.

              6. VD shouldn’t give the 49ers a bargain because the 49ers paid him fairly in the past. VD has earned fair payment next season. He doesn’t owe the 49ers any favors.

              7. He’s currently underpaid at $4 million per season. He’s currently a bargain for the 49ers. He deserves more than $6 million per season.

                No he’s not. You have the same misunderstanding Davis does. He was paid a large Bonus up front that is part of his pay this year and next. His salary with that bonus included is near 7 million. Base pay being lower is one of the benefits the team has when they give money up front.

                The way you and Davis need to look at it is, that he’s already been paid part of his salary for the next two years.

              8. The bonus is paid all at once. That’s how bonuses work. The bonus is in the past. He’s currently underpaid.

              9. uhm…Grant, you do understand how contracts work right? That up front bonus money is part of the overall compensation that includes 5 years of service. that money in the past stuff makes absolutely no sense at all.

              10. “VD shouldn’t give the 49ers a bargain because the 49ers paid him fairly in the past. VD has earned fair payment next season. He doesn’t owe the 49ers any favors.”

                Vernon isn’t giving them a bargain. He’s the 3rd highest TE in the league. By absolutely no objective measure that I can think of is he worth more than what he is paid.

                Now, I agree that to the Niners specifically he might be more valuable. But on the open Market, I don’t think he commands more than his $7M/year compensation. And he probably wouldn’t get a contract for more than a few years with anything more than $10M guaranteed.

              11. The bonus is paid all at once. That’s how bonuses work. The bonus is in the past. He’s currently underpaid.

                A bonus is an advance on the contract. Just because the player gets one doesn’t mean he’s underpaid when the base salaries become lower. It means Davis was paid a portion of his salaries in the last two years up front. This idea that he is underpaid because the base salary is lower is absurd. That bonus money didn’t disappear from the books. It’s still there and counting against the cap.

                Davis paid as much or more than he should be at this stage. Other than TD’s he ranked pretty low in most of the TE categories. Pat Kirwan did and article on this a couple of weeks ago. I’ll try to find it because he laid out exactly why Davis should be thankful he got what he did.

              12. “Once the money is in their pockets, it’s over.”

                are we talking perception or reality? I have a hard time thinking that an intelligent guy like Vernon would not consider his signing bonus as part of his overall current compensation. In fact he mentions his past contract and it’s guaranteed money in his interview.

              13. Grant, your a dope if you think the niners should restructure Davis’s deal.. The guy is getting paid top 3 money at the TE position. He has been paid a crap load of money. There is a better chance niners cut Davis out right then them resigning him. The focus right now should be resigning Crabtree instead of Davis. Davis has been great but he will be on the decline. Crabtree showed in importance when he returned. Comparing the niners resigning there franchise QB early to re doing davis’s deal is idiotic.

              14. Once the money is in their pockets, it’s over.

                Not to the team it isn’t. That money is part of his salary every year of the contract.

              15. No, it’s been paid. It’s just part of the salary cap. The 49ers’ problem, not Davis’.

              16. No, it’s been paid. It’s just part of the salary cap. The 49ers’ problem, not Davis’.

                This doesn’t make any sense. He’s been paid part of his salary for the next two years already. It doesn’t cease to exist because he got it early. The league doesn’t work that way and the cap certainly doesn’t.

                It becomes a problem for the team if they submit to a request with this line of thinking as the backdrop. The team won’t do it nor should they.

              17. Grant:

                You know that thing you do? The one where you take a controversial position, support it with a poorly-reasoned argument, and, when your poor reasoning is refuted by multiple posters, you double down and make more illogical arguments?

                That thing?

                You’re doing it again.

              18. Just because you and Rocket disagree with me doesn’t mean I’m taking a controversial position. I think most people can see how important Davis is to the team. Rocket’s taking the minority position saying anyone can replace Davis as a deep threat, and that the 49ers can easily make up for Davis’ production. No one agrees with Rocket about that.

              19. Nice attempt at misdirection. No one is arguing that Vernon isn’t important to the team, and that’s not the controversial position to which I referred.

                But you know that, don’t you?

              20. Rocket is arguing that Vernon is easily replaceable. That’s a controversial position.
                And I think most of the NFL would agree that VD is currently more important to the 49ers’ offense than Kaepernick. VD made the Pro Bowl last season. Kaepernick didn’t.

              21. Just because you and Rocket disagree with me doesn’t mean I’m taking a controversial position. I think most people can see how important Davis is to the team.

                He is important to the team, nobody is arguing against that. The issue is you saying he is the most important player. You’ve taken a stance that the offense can’t compete without Davis and the team can’t win a SB. That is ludicrous considering his numbers and what they have done without him being a factor in the passing game. He’s a very good player and the team is better with him than without him, but you are blowing his ability and influence on this team way out of proportion.

                You are also saying that a bonus doesn’t count towards his salary this year because once it’s in his pocket it’s gone.

                You are making bizarre claims that are unfounded and have no backing evidence to support them.

              22. The Steelers aren’t telling Roethlisberger they can’t renegotiate his contract because they gave him a signing bonus in 2008. That’s silliness.

                Davis always is a factor in the passing game even if he isn’t catching passes. The 49ers use him as a decoy. Defenses overreact to him. This is known.

              23. “Just because you and Rocket disagree with me doesn’t mean I’m taking a controversial position.”

                Grant, I know objectivity isn’t always a strong point and that you never really claim it anyway but in this case just take a look around.

                by definition a controversial position would be one that disagrees with the general consensus. what is the general consensus among other NFL analysts and the posters here? I’d say most do not believe that Davis deserves a raise (beyond being the 3rd highest paid TE in the league…you keep failing to understand basic and i mean really really basic finance principles). If that’s the case then it’s you and the rest of us. And that’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinion. But a reality check would tell you that you’d have to acknowledge that your opinion is controversial.

              24. Rocket is arguing that Vernon is easily replaceable. That’s a controversial position.

                Throw this man a life preserver. No that is not what I am arguing Grant. I’m arguing that he is not irreplaceable. There is a big difference in those two terms. I’ve clearly stated the team is better with him than without him. Where I strongly disagree is in this belief you have that the offense would become anemic without him. There is enough talent here to mount a good passing game with or without Vernon Davis.

                And I think most of the NFL would agree that VD is currently more important to the 49ers’ offense than Kaepernick. VD made the Pro Bowl last season. Kaepernick didn’t.

                No I would bet they wouldn’t agree with that at all, and the Probowl is not a basis for ranking the worth of a player. The QB is the key to a teams offense even one that runs the ball more than it throws. If the QB plays poorly it doesn’t matter who else is out there the team isn’t going to win many games.

              25. You said you have no doubt the 49ers can make up for Davis’ loss. That means he’s easily replaceable on this team, which is a controversial opinion to say the least.

                What is anemic? The 49ers’ offense would rank near the bottom-third of the league without Davis.

              26. Grant, here’s the problem with discounting Davis’ bonus: the $7 million figure you are citing includes they bonus money the other guys received. Witten and Gronkowski are the two guys with bigger contracts than Davis’. Witten has a base salary of $5 million in 2014, which is very comparable to Davis’ $4.7 million base. Gronkowski’s base is less than $4 million. If we’re only looking at base salaries, Davis is paid more or less where he should be.

                Whether we look at total money, total guaranteed, or base pay, the reality is that Davis is paid right about where he should be. He has limited leverage short of actually holding out at this point, though in doing so he has as much leverage as anyone. The difference between him and McDonald is vast.

              27. You said you have no doubt the 49ers can make up for Davis’ loss. That means he’s easily replaceable on this team, which is a controversial opinion to say the least.

                No that is not what it means and seeing as though it’s my opinion you are trying to decipher it might be worthwhile to listen to the guy who made it. I have no doubt they can replace Davis in the passing game because of the WR’s they’ve added. That doesn’t mean I think they’ll find it easy or that they have another TE on the roster that can replace them. They don’t, but the offense will be fine because ultimately they are a run first, play action pass offense and that doesn’t change without Davis.

                What is anemic? The 49ers’ offense would rank near the bottom-third of the league without Davis.

                They ranked in the bottom 3rd in total offense without him and that’s the point: not much changes without Davis. This is a conservative run first offense. If anything, not having him would likely force them to open up the passing game with more 3 WR sets.

              28. The 49ers’ offense ranked 11th in points last season. They probably would have ranked 20th or worse in points without Davis.

              29. They ranked 11th the year before too when Davis was an after thought for the final 6 games and only scored 5 TD’s the entire season.

              30. Defenses didn’t treat Davis as an afterthought — that’s what you’re not getting.

              31. I don’t think you can compare last year with this year, Grant. Aside from Boldin, who did the 49ers have at WR for most of the year? Of course they struggled when Davis was out of the line-up.

                It should be a very different story this year.

              32. Without Davis on the field, defenses can move their safeties closer to the line of scrimmage, and they can easily help with Boldin and Crabtree because they don’t have to cover McDonald — a linebacker can handle him. Davis makes things much easier for everyone on the 49ers’ offense.

              33. Of course he does Grant. Not questioning any of that. The 49ers offense is better with Davis. But compared to last year they are in a much stronger position to field an offense that doesn’t feature Davis, if that is the cards they are dealt. They can likely compensate to a degree by increasing the input from other players.

                I can’t imagine the offense would be as potent, but think it would still be more than capable of winning lots of games, and even the Super Bowl. If Davis decides to sit the year, it would be as if Davis had gotten injured. The team has the talent to find a way to win without him.

                As for the lack of a deep threat, my guess is that without Davis there would be a lot more use of outside receivers getting deep and using the slot WR to work the middle of the field, or having the slot WR run many of those same types of deeper routes that Davis runs to clear out the safety. Lloyd would likely make the team if Davis isn’t available.

            2. I saw a couple things I haven’t seen mentioned thus far.
              1. It appears the fallout over the Kaepernick deal is starting with Vernon Davis. (behind closed doors they will run through a brick wall for you) Here is a young kid who basically rewrites how contracts will be signed in the future. No job security, but instead all performance based. It’s essentially a series of 1 year deals by a guy who isn’t 30 and at the back half of his career.
              2. Last season when Crabtree went down we all said SF’s passing game was in trouble. They needed someone to step up. McDonald, please take note of this and step up this season. Because realistically, there is always going to be fall off from your veteran starter and your back up.
              SF for their credit anticipated Vernon doing this. This organization is a business and the job of their psychiatrists is to map out this sort of behavior.
              3. WE DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS…Expect t-shirts to follow to make up for the money VD just cost his “brand”.

          2. No they didn’t and it’s not remotely the same as Davis’ situation. Kap is a young QB just entering the prime of his career who had one year left on his contract. In contrast, Davis is 30, has two years left on his deal and has possibly played his best football already. Signing your QB to a new deal with a year left on his contract is smart and something every franchise does if they get the chance too. Davis has been paid top tier money already and has two years remaining. The team did not open itself up to anything. The player just wants more money and is trying to strong arm the team into giving it to him. Given what we know about Baalke, I can confidently say Davis is not getting more money. The only thing he might be able to get is a year or two tacked on the deal that gives him a little more guaranteed now, but I don’t think he’s looking for a little more quite frankly.

            1. Davis is calling for a reality check. He is indispensable to this team and he’s asking the 49ers to acknowledge that. If they don’t, they’re cutting of their nose to spite their face. They can’t win the Super Bowl without VD.

              1. Davis is the one who needs a reality check. He’s been paid fairly if not above market at the start of the contract and isn’t going to give them anymore than he has already when he turns 32.

              2. agreed, and the failure to develop a viable option/back up to Vernon was a big tactical personnel error by Baalke and Harbaugh. McDonald obviously has not developed as they thought he would. That’s either a personnel evaluation error or a coaching problem or both.

                At least when the Niners had Walker they had a serviceable back up option. Walker wasn’t as good as Vernon and for some reason developed hands problems in his last couple of years with the Niners (but seems to have gotten better with the Titans) but he was still a good match up option and could (and did) replace Vernon from time to time.

              3. They did start to look at options beyond Davis. That’s why they drafted McDonald. Davis is by far the best TE they have but he’s not irreplaceable. What they would do I would guess is use a combination of a WR and McDonald in the passing game to make up for Davis’ contribution. McDonald could make a big move up in production if given more opportunity.

              4. This last year Vernon in three meetings with the Seahawks had 7 catches for 57 yards. That’s an average of 2.3 catches and 18.9 yards per game. Against their toughest opponent. Great players show up in big games. He’s not worth more money.

          3. That’s called setting yourself up for the long haul Grant. His ability to block was down last year, so Davis needs to prove that it was a fluke and that he is willing to wait for his reward, whether it be from the 49ers or somebody in free agency two years from now.

            1. He’s a decent blocker still, but his main value to the team is as a deep threat receiver. Davis and Calvin Johnson were the only receivers in the NFL last season who caught more than 9 TDs and averaged more than 16 yard per catch. Obviously that’s incredibly rare and valuable.

              1. Decent won’t beat the Seahawks Grant. And his numbers went down against strong secondaries.

          4. Grant– You validate my previous post that this has less to do with sticking up for Davis’s rights than it is a back handed slam on the Niner’s giving Kaepernick a long term contract. This is about trying to save face after you had to back step on Kaeps contract. Now you all you have is trying to find a reason they shouldn’t have given him any contract. You are as easy to read as a large print addition.

    1. I agree MidWest – if Davis extends his hold out to training camp, it simply gives the 49ers more reason to use their WRs. With the talent they have at WR, the passing game should be fine with this move. And it will mean defenses go nickel more often too.

      1. except which one of those WRs can inline block at the Y position and then sell play-action? (and blocking WRs don’t count…inline blocking is totally different than walling off a DB or getting a crack back block on a linebacker). the Niners are still primarily a run first team that builds on top of it with play-action. it gets more difficult when you have to sub in a blocker and then a receiver when you call run or pass and trying to sell play action.

        1. Without Davis, they would need to modify how they attack teams. No question. But they have other pieces in place. I would imagine with Davis out of the line-up there would be more 3 WR sets, and try and spread out the D. The 49ers have plenty of RBs that are familiar with running read-option and out of spread formations.

  6. You would think an “insider” would have reviewed how the new CBA affects hold-outs, specifically the number of weeks a player can hold out and still have the year count as a year of service time. Back when Vincent Jackson did his hold-out it was for the first 11 weeks (I think) and that was under the previous CBA and involved being a restricted free agent with the whole qualifying offer thing (which doesn’t really apply for drafted players under the new CBA). Vernon (and much more importantly Boone) are on second deals, so if they hold out for whole season how does that affect their contract? Perhaps some “fanboys” have better answers.

  7. - 2006. Vernon signed a five-year, $23M rookie contract. Vernon was the highest paid tight end in 2006.

    - 2010. Vernon got a five-year contract extension for $37M, $23M guaranteed. He was the highest paid tight end in 2010. The 2010 contract was front loaded with a $10M signing bonus.

    This is why his 2014 is a “low” $5M and he’s ONLY the 3rd highest paid TE (except he isn’t because part of his front loaded contract was a pay advance, with the expectations he would improve).

    He gladly signed his lucrative 2010 contract. His improved play only means he’s fulfilling the existing obligation. Vernon’s been paid.

    1. Vernon is treating the 49ers like a typical NFL team treats its host city.

      “You have already paid me handsomely, I have done extremely well with the arrangement, I gladly signed onto the deal, but the analysts say you need me more then I need you, so fork over!”

  8. Grant anyone compile statistics on post holdout performance or injuries?

    The value of the player decreases the deeper into camp/season the holdout lasts. Upon returnee will be rusty and a much higher injury risk… (so it seams).

    The holdout decreases players trade value. A more satisfied player would fetch a higher draft pick.

  9. I agree with Grant that Vernon is extremely important to the dynamics of our passing game. But I can’t understand Vernon’s end game here. Is he really prepared to hold out for the next TWO years?

    Iupati I could understand, because he could just play the last 6 games of this year and be done with it. But is Vernon really going to sacrifice all that money–and still have to play in the last 6 games two years in a row anyway–to satisfy his contract’s term requirements?

    1. I can’t understand why the 49ers would let it come to that. He’s way too important to the team’s current Super Bowl chances. Pay the man and get him back in camp. The risk of losing him is not worth the money the 49ers would save.

      1. Here’s the rub Grant: how exactly is Davis wanting to be paid? Is he wanting a TE contract or a WR contract?

      2. Well, that’s the multi-million dollar question. Would Davis follow through on that strategy? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player employ it with two years left on a contract.

        I agree with the importance of Vernon to the 49ers. But if they cave, then Staley and Anthony Davis would be well within their rights to take the exact same approach. And I think it would be very hard for the 49ers to get to the Super Bowl without Staley.

        Also, what would keep Crabs and Iupati from suddenly threatening to hold out with only a single year left on their contracts?

        All that in consideration, if I’m the 49ers, I test Davis’ resolve. If he wants to get back in camp, I might negotiate. But as long as he stays away from camp, I’m too scared to reward that approach, since there are other player who I need to reach the Super Bowl who I think could follow his lead.

          1. An extension is something I think the team would consider. What they won’t do is give him another huge bonus/guaranteed money which is likely what he is after. I doubt the problem is adding years to the deal. The issue is what Davis wants to be paid for those additional years and how it affects his up front money and cap charge. They aren’t ripping up two years, so any extension takes him beyond 32 which will not make the team willing to pony up more money.

      3. what’s hard to understand?

        Teams always weigh the need for immediate results vs. long term future. Teams like the 49ers tend to lean towards the more immediate when they’re in a super bowl contention window. But only to an certain extent.

        If I’m the Niners, there’s no way I bend to Davis, even at the immediate cost to my team (which I think can be mitigated). I keep saying this but you fail to accept or acknowledge the fact that Davis is already the 3rd highest paid TE in the league!. So it’s not like he’s (objectively) and underpaid player that wants more money and probably deserves it except that the Niners got the advantage because of a crafty early extension. I know that any strong willed business man would BURY Davis if he chooses to continue to hold out under these conditions. Bury him on the depth chart (put him on IR) so that he and his Fantex investors get little return on their investment and his future prospects look even less appealing.

        As to replacing Davis? It really can’t be done entirely. And you’re right that the offense doesn’t function well without him. But then the offense is geared with him in mind. I think that with some time before the season the Niners could mitigate Davis’s loss through the development of another TE as well as altering the offense (passing concepts/route combos and personnel packages) to account for Davis’s absence. In the past when Davis was injured, the replacement just had to be plugged in and perform as well as they could as Davis’s replacement as well as call plays that don’t feature Davis. So it wasn’t they weren’t optimal solutions for making up for Davis’s absence. But with miniCamp and Training Camp, I think the Niners could do a better job. Again, it wouldn’t be the same as having Davis but I think the drop off wouldn’t be as drastic with time to prepare.

    1. Thanks for steering me to the article, Rocket. It’s very thorough and well-reasoned. For those who haven’t read it, Kirwan makes an interesting point that Vernon’s productivity has possibly seen its peak — my words — with Johnson and McDonald likely taking some of his throws away.

      1. No problem George.

        It’s really a good reference on what the front office may be thinking as Kirwan was in that position for many years. He’s been adamant about the fact Davis has been fairly paid and he wouldn’t give him anything more based on what he’s made, what he’s produced and what he’s likely to do in the future.

  10. What’s the point of a contract if players don’t want to honor them? Get real. Let Davis sit out… Good player who’s paid fairly. It’s not the team’s fault that Davis made a poor financial choice signing portions of his salary away to Fantex… Team needs to hold firm on this one.

    On the bright side this will give the young TE’s more practice time who definitely need it.

      1. Grant, that’s not an apples-to-apples argument. Kaep was due to become an RFA. Vernon isn’t. Also, are you sure an extension, not a redo of his current contract, is what he’s looking for? I could possibly see giving an extension to a holdout, but not a redo. Even then, I think I’d need the guy to show up to talk to him at all. Kaep never suggested he’d miss a day and they kept negotiation with him.

        1. Davis shouldn’t have to holdout. The 49ers should have approached him with a renegotiated contract offer already. It is not in Davis’ interest to play for $4 million this season. He’s 30. Get the money you deserve now.

          1. That may be true. But now that he is holding out, you’d be setting a scary precedent. Because Staley probably deserves to be approached about a raise even more than Vernon.

          2. He’s not playing for 4 million, he’s playing for over 7 mill. Just because he’s been advanced part of the money doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Really poor argument to keep making Grant.

            1. Davis wants more money now and he deserves it more than Kaepernick does. The Niners put themselves in this position.

              1. He wants more money now but that doesn’t mean he deserves it and he certainly doesn’t deserve it more than a QB. The Niners did what every team in the league would do and does if they have the chance. Arguing a TE deserves the money more than the QB is a new level of reach for you.

              2. He’s the most important player on the 49ers’ offense. He just happens to be a tight end. Without Davis, the Niners have the slowest receivers in the NFL.

              3. You are putting entirely too much emphasis on the speed of the WR’s. It’s great to have a player who can stretch the field but it’s not a necessity. Route running and combinations are far more important than a speed threat, and the Niners have a group who are very adept at route running.

              4. Having the slowest receiver by far in the NFL would not be a good thing. The field would get congested. DBs would only have to worry about getting beat on double moves.

              5. Let’s say neither side, for whatever reason, budges. And idea of what Vernon’s trade value is?

              6. “You are putting entirely too much emphasis on the speed of the WR’s.”

                it’s because Grant only understands vertical passing and the physical aspects of football. i think he understands passing concepts and route running and WCO tactics. well you’d think he would if he was covering the Niners. but he keeps saying the same things about fast WRs and going vertical. (hint, while it helps to have speed, you can go vertical without being a blazer).

              7. Having the slowest receiver by far in the NFL would not be a good thing. The field would get congested. DBs would only have to worry about getting beat on double moves.

                Every receiver has to be accounted for no matter how fast he is. If you want to argue that the Niners likely won’t score many TD’s on deep throws, then I’m right there with you, but the offense doesn’t need a speed threat to be effective. A trio of Crabtree, Boldin and Johnson will give teams a lot of problems this year because they are all savvy route runners who know how to get open and will not be double teamed at the expense of another.

              8. People! Why do you even engage and try to reason with Grant. This is not about Davis but his effort to continue his argument that Kaep should not have been extended. His retraction about Kaeps contract was not really about the contract but only because he made statements that were in error based on lack of knowledge of it’s actual content. Grant write another article about how you feel it was a mistake to extend Kaep and don’t use this BS Davis thing as a cover.

              9. I like the Kaepernick contract. But I thought the 49ers understood they’d also have to renegotiate Davis’.

          3. Of course it’s not in Davis’ best interest to play for $4 million, but that’s the contract he signed. I have no problem with him trying to get more, but I don’t see why the team would do it.

          4. Grant, given your argument that NOW Davis is playing for $4 million, do you think the Niners should avoid giving players more money up front, going forward?

            That’s actually another interesting precedent that could be set here. Obviously it worked with Staley–but if other players, like Vernon, are going to cite specific dollar amounts year to year rather than the total sum of the contract, than the Niners’ negotiators must adapt to this.

            1. They just did this with Kap. They clearly favor a contract based on higher amounts being distributed year to year with lower risk, rather than a large up front sum. Davis doesn’t want any part of a contract like that at his age though. He wants more money given to him now without taking into account he’s already earned at the top of his market and will not provide the team with the amount of production needed to justify it by the time a new deal kicks in.

              1. Rocket, this is true. So then it would be a doubly scary precedent to cave to Vernon, given that the Niners rely on this strategy to keep their salary cap within some level of reason.

              2. Grant, how would we LOSE VD? He’d still have to play out six games this year for the year to count on his contract. If he doesn’t play at all, his career is over. And, he’d have to do that for 2 straight years, yes?

          5. Grant, why is it hard for you to understand that it’s not $4M a season. It’s an average of $7M+ a season! It includes his signing bonus and other bonuses. Even Davis understands that. I’m not sure if you need lessons in finance 101 or what….

            If you continue to make this ridiculous argument, you can’t be take seriously in any discussion in regards to contracts.

            1. allforfunnplay—-Because Grant doesn’t want to understand or cares to understand. He is just using this Davis contract thing to press his point that Kaep should not have gotten an extension. Silly tactic. To bad you guys didn’t see through it.

          6. I know you like Kaepernicks contract. You have to say that because it’s a win win for the Niner’s. You could’t come up with a valid argument that it isn’t a good contract. What you don’t like is that they gave him an extension which is not the same thing. No it was not a reasonable assumption that extending Kaep implied that they would do the same with Davis. Your just looking for a way out of what I called you on.

            Now if Davis would get an extension that left the last two years of his contract as they were, but just added more years at a fair rate then I don’t think the front office would have an objection. He still owes them money in his last two years to balance out his front load years.

            Davis has stated that this is “About his Brand” Those words came from his brokers. They have sold him a bill of goods. Even his later statement of who would be with him when his playing days are over but his family and his investment company (Brand). This is all sounds like the line he was fed by his brokers. They will push him to push the Niner’s until it looks futile. They have nothing to lose they have already given 4 mil to Davis. They want as much back as possible. Sounds like they are throwing him under the bus by gambling his career on a higher return.

    1. I had mentioned that earlier George, and don’t feel sorry for mentioning. He was a great player that did it the right way during a generation where players sought out ways to cheat in order to succeed. His loyalty to the Padres and not money is one of the other things that separates from most of the players. Tony Gywnn will be missed.

      1. Sorry I missed your post, Dynasty. These blogs get long, as you know; before I go on, I try to make sure I’m not bringing up old news. Obviously should have spent more time looking.

        1. No worries George. Post what you find and worry about seeing it already on blog later. I’m just surprised nobody else has commented on Gywnn’s passing.

    2. AWESOME AWESOME player!!!!
      .
      The best pure hitter I ever had the pleasure to see play the game.
      .
      Hated the Padres…loved TG!
      .
      Sad to see him pass.
      .
      .
      .
      *ALOHA*

  11. Grant, the issue you’re avoiding is telling us what Vernon’s end game would be. I’ve asked you three times, but instead you just say, “oh, the Niners should just pay him, he deserves it.” I’ll ask you again, do you really see him sitting out the rest of his career? Or do you see him playing 6 games this year, then 6 next year? What’s the end game for Vernon if the 49ers don’t capitulate?

    1. I don’t know how he thinks. He may be willing to walk away from the team if he feels disrespected or under-appreciated.

      1. But if VD walks away from the team without playing at least six games in each of two separate years, then he’d have to retire.

        1. I wouldn’t put it past him. Even if he plays the minimum to keep his options open, he hurts the 49ers big-time.

          1. Ok, so let’s go at if from another direction… If the Niners turn out to be 100% dead set against renegotiating, how much is VD worth on the trade market?

    2. here’s my guess.

      I don’t think Davis will get more money at least on a average per year type of thing.

      I think he might get extension talks started.

      I think Davis wants more security beyond 2015.

      Niners have little salary cap space in 2014 some in 2015. So I could see a new extension with guaranteed money in the form of an option bonus that kicks in 2015 (when the Niners can afford it).

      In fact the Niners could need more space in 2014 so a deal the frees up space in 2014 might make sense for the Niners.

      This hold out might have been the only way he could bring this to the Niner’s attention?

      1. I don’t think this has the same motivations for an extension that most others have used in the past. This investment racket adds an entirely different dimension to this. These people are using Davis experimentally to figure out how they can operate in the NFL by selling futures in a player. They don’t have Davis’s best interests at heart only their own future agenda in the NFL. He is a test case for them nothing more. And like a lot of first editions of experiments, they turn out very badly. This is a precedent setting issue with not only the team but the entire NFL as far as player investments go.

    3. Sully,

      His end game will be the same one that most players trying this tact wind up playing. He’ll show up and play because at the end of the day, playing out his contract is better than not cashing any checks. The team knows this and Vernon knows this which is why nothing will change regarding his contract unless he decides to agree to an extension that favors the team as much or more than him. He really has no other options.

  12. Grant, I noticed this in your prior article: “He is not a good route runner or a true factor in the red zone.”

    The second part of that statement is just plain wrong. Say what you will about his polish, but Davis is very much a factor in the red zone. He caught 8 TDs inside the opponent’s 20 last year. Only two TEs had more TDs last year, period, and only Jimmy Graham was more of a threat in the red zone (Julius Thomas also had eight red zone TDs). Among WRs, only Dez Bryant and Brandon Marsall had more red zone TDs. Perhaps more significantly, that production accounted for 53.3% of the Niners’ red zone TDs last year. Davis is a significant factor in the red zone.

  13. Patrick Willis has allowed himself to become enamored of a financial scheme that is dubious at best. His ‘investment opportunity’ in selling off part of his income is the real underlying reason for his wanting more money. He probably will not get it from the 49ers, and since he is contracted for another two years, he probably would not get it from any other club, either.
    Someone has sold him a bill of goods and he has swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Especially the sinker.

  14. Love Davis, but he’s over played his hand. We should not negotiate with terrorists. I’d let him know in a polite way, either come in or we’ll look to trade him to some scrub team in a cold part of the country. Vernon is great at two things; running fast and blocking. He is horrible at making tough catches and running after the catch – thats not a straight line. He is not the run away best TE in the league, nor should he be paid as such. Sorry Vern. No dice.

  15. So, VD signs a front-loaded contract, gets paid, is now *underpaid* because of how he structured his contract, and wants even more?

    Sorry. He can sit out this season for all I care. It would be a good object lesson to the rest of the players.

  16. Davis is essential to the 49ers because he’s their only deep threat. His value is running and catching, not blocking. He needs to be compared to other receivers. Vernon Davis was the only player in the NFL last season who caught more than 12 TDs and averaged more than 16 yards per catch. No other tight end or receiver did that. Players who average a high YPC and score a lot of TDs are extremely rare.

    1. it’s not like Davis transcends the TE position.

      by yards Davis is: #6
      by receptions Davis is: #14
      by yards per catch Davis is #1 (technically #8 but not by anyone with a what I would consider a significant number of receptions).
      by TDs: #2

          1. No, it just shows how important Davis is for Kaepernick and the rest of the 49ers’ offense. He’s absolutely indispensable.

      1. When comparing the 49ers passing numbers against the league I think the best way is by the averages because they are at the bottom of the league in attempts.

        For Davis to be #6 overall in yards despite being #14 in receptions shows that he is making big plays.

    2. Sorry gentlemen.
      .
      I wasn’t going to throw my two cents in to this debate…until I read this:
      .
      .
      ‘His value is running and catching, not blocking.’
      .
      .
      He’s the best blocking TE in the league HANDS DOWN.
      .
      But I guess that’s not real valuable…
      .
      SMHID!
      .
      .
      .
      *ALOHA*

    1. I don’t think he ever did, Grant. My impression has always been that, underneath, it’s always about Vernon. I have a different perception of Boone though.

  17. When did holding out and not working become “improving your brand.” Call his bluff. See what teams are offering for him. He is important to us but I’m sure we could get something good in return. He’s on a bunch of BS. I hate bc he’s one of my favorites.

  18. VD can sit out minicamp but when the fines start mounting and the monthly bills come due he’ll be in camp in short order. I wouldn’t give him another dime. If he wants to walk away from the game and let his teammates down then so be it. Grant you think his stock holders will like him walking away from the game? VD’s scare tactics won’t bother Trent Baalke in the least. When push comes to shove VD needs that paycheck.

  19. I am against a player holding out. You sign a contract and agree to play for “X” amount of years for “X” amount of money. And yes it is now clear he is under paid. That being said Vernon is the most irreplaceable player on the entire roster. When he is on the field he is a difference maker. Even if he ends up with 0 or 1 catch a game he is still forcing safety help, and stretching the field. When he was out last year the Niners whole offense became completely inept. I see some of you claiming that is because Crab was out too, but that argument is flawed, Crab would have helped a little but not much, Davis is more important. With Davis gone the niners have no deep threat, and the FO made it clear this offseason they dont care to have a deep threat WR. So this makes me think they are still heavily relying on Davis to continue to be the deep guy. The niners need to meet with Davis and resolve this. Him missing camp really isnt an issue, but if it drags on longer it could be. Pay the man.

    On a nother note, the niners FO did this to themselves when they paid a top 15 QB like a top 5 QB. Under paid players will want to renegotiate and be paid what theyre worth, or drastically higher than theyre worth in this case.

    1. I agree with your analysis of what’s happened when Vernon has been off the field or neutralized but believe that Johnson, Lloyd, Patton, and McDonald will make a difference in the passing game. Maybe even Ellington if he’s good enough. It’s an unproven belief, I know. Don’t forget too that the Niners also have leverage. They can wait him out a number of months. The danger is that this becomes a TO situation in which he poisons the opinion of his teammates and coaches.

      As for Kaepernick, he has a pay-as-you-go contract. The up-front money made it respectible, which he deserves, but it’s not top 5 in my opinion.

  20. So you’re saying the 49ers could win 9-10 games with Sanchez, but only eek out 6 without VD?

    I disagree. They have more than enough weapons to compensate and adjust going into training camp. VD has fooled us all when we thought Simpletary taught him a lesson. He pretended for the money, and his true colors are shining through. It’s always been about the brand with this guy, and not football. Certainly these are not the actions of a player that’s all about the team…..

    1. Absolutely. You can divide the locker room into two groups — Vernon and everyone else. Some would put Crab next to him, but I wouldn’t. I think he’s pretty much by himself as far as this goes. Anyone want to add to his group?

  21. It does matter how his contract compares to other TE’s as well as his value to the team.

    When he signed the last deal he was over paid. He was given a front loaded contract for the very purpose of avoiding a high salary at this critical time when we have a 1-3 year window to win a SB.

    What Vernon is doing is wrong on every level. I am almost always on the side of the players in these cases, as I am with Boone. The issue here is that he both has two years left and is not underpaid for his production.

    He did not say I want what I can get on the market. He said he wants what he “deserves”. He deserves to be the 3rd highest paid TE in the league because he is the 3rd best TE in the league. He is in fact the 3rd highest paid TE right now, that doesn’t include the front end of his contract either, that is just this year.

    Being overpaid once does not mean he deserves to be overpaid again, especially considering he was overpaid then so he wouldn’t have to be paid higher when we really needed the cap room.

    So he chooses the worst moment humanly possible to try and derail what could be our last SB chance……If he had spent his life trying to find a way to screw over the 9ers and the fans that have shown him love he could not have found a better way to back stab us.

    I had really believed that the selfish, spoiled, child act was done after Singletary sent him to the locker room. It now seems as if he was just hiding it better because he was on the way out of the league if he didn’t.

    The majority of 30+ year old players are willing to take less to try and get that ring. Guys like Marino would have killed for the chance to be where he is. Yet he is doing all he can to ruin it so he can get paid.

    I would flat tell him that if he wants to go this way he can get paid in Jacksonville. Then put him up for trade to losing teams only.

      1. I would argue that the trade for Johnson effectively negates the bargaining position Vernon had. Last year when Crabtree was hurt and we had nothing but Boldin and Vernon he was critical.

        Now with 3 other healthy WR’s who all have produced as #1′s on their teams and a solid young pass catching TE I think we would be just as good as we finished the year. I would much rather have Vernon as well but I would rather dump him to a loser than give him another penny. Especially if dumping him allows us to keep Crabtree, Iupati, and Boone.

        1. Even with Crabtree out, Vernon didn’t light up the field…especially in tough games. Last year was the year that he could’ve proved his extreme worth to the team by dominating in the receiving game. He didn’t. Yes he caught 13 TDs, but he wasn’t consistently present in the big clutch moments (i.e. every Seattle game) which is what great players do.

        2. The Niners are still a power running first then play action team. So that means less 3WR than most casual fans understand. and the Niners don’t have a young pass catching TE. They have McDonald that still has issues with his hands, routes and is still learning how to block (something he didn’t do much of in college).

        3. Johnson is a possession receiver. He does not give the 49ers what VD does.

          What makes McDonald solid?

          Davis is more valuable to the 49ers than he would be to most other teams. Most other teams have someone who can stretch the field.

  22. It makes me sick that my favorite player has decided to go down the selfish/entitlement road. This is the bottom line. I don’t care what problems he has with money, I don’t care if he feels he has to “look out for his family” or get that bad a** Vette he saw at the dealership. He signed a DEAL… And at the time it was for BIG money at his position. He had NO problem signing that deal for the x amount of years and money. This is where the thin line of reality and integrity comes into play vs the “business” side of football. There is absolutely NO excuse to back out of the very deal he signed. He would have a hissy fit if the 49ers decided to ask him to take a paycut and bench him if he didn’t. I have lost all respect for Davis. And if anyone wants two free jerseys with his number find me at the game and they’re yours. What a piece of selfish trash. Zero respect for a welcher!

    1. Oh and one last thing. Hey Vernon… How about you show up vs Seattle for once before you start barking for more money. And yes this “extension” is about more money.

    2. This is where I disagree. I don’t have a problem with a player who outplays his contract wanting to renegotiate. The teams are quick to welch on a contract if a player doesn’t produce enough for them. The VAST majority of players never see the total $$ in their contracts. Even if they play well enough teams are quick to ask them to take a cut to help them.

      Vernon just does not qualify. He signed a front loaded deal. The fact that he doesn’t like his last two years salary is not enough to deserve more. The whole point was to make his last couple of years easier to handle. He knew this when he signed it.

      Vernon has never lived up to his potential. Even now he still doesn’t. He has the talent to be the best TE in history but the mindset to be the 3rd best TE currently playing. This situation explains why he will never live up to his potential. Because he cares less about football and winning than he does his $$ and name.

      He is like the Peyton Manning of TE’s. He has all the talent in the world, but lacks the heart of a champion. Is willing to sacrifice winning for his wallet. Even though he has always made at least what he is worth, never has produced when it mattered most, and is handed a chance to be a legend.

      Peyton chose to give up rings for $$ in Denver. Vernon is free to do the same in my book.

  23. Okay, I’ve been working a ton recently so I haven’t time to come on here and comment, but I wanted to throw my two cents in.

    At first I thought “Davis wanted an extension? That’s cool, we want him on the team long term!” I didn’t realize it was extension plus more money….while he still has 2 years on his contract. Yes, he is one of the best TE’s in the league, but he can’t/shouldn’t get paid like Graham or Gronk because those guys are expected to perform like a WR and NOT like a TE, whereas Vernon is expected to play more as TE with the wrinkle/threat of a WR (which is why the F.O. keeps trying to improve the WR corps). If they wanted him to be in that role they would actually use him that way, but they don’t, so he won’t get paid that way. I understand that they send him deep often, but it’s primarily as a decoy not as a primary target, so the reality is that his production enough to justify paying him like a WR/TE…like an awesome traditional TE? Yes.

    My prediction, they’ll let him pout over the next two summers and earn his extension/raise. The priorities right now of Crabtree and Boone will be resolved first. I think holding out, might even push Baalke to let him test himself on the market (which is what this is all about). In light of Kaep’s new contract, the time just makes Davis look like a “self-serving” “me-first” player. I get it’s a biz, but the timing doesn’t make him look good.

  24. Trade Davis to the texans for Johnson. Get rid of the baby already. We want winners and team players he isn’t one he always was this way and his true colors are showing again!

  25. Hey Grant, you do know no matter what you say or how realistic you are that once someone has taken this firm of a stance (right or wrong) on the internet that it is impossible to change their mind. Do you really think he will all of of a sudden be like “oh i get what your saying”. Nope he will fight this to the death lol

  26. The way i feel is its all about money and winning. How much will you pay for a W? I would gladly pay the 2 million extra to shore up 4-6 extra W’s. To not do so would be ignorant. Of course we all want our favorite players to be all about the team, and i still think VD is. But he is a smart man as well and knows he has the front office by the short and curly’s. How else are we gonna stretch the field without him? And on top of that how are we gonna do that from the TE position for under 10 million and a handfull of picks? What other TE could even do what he does for us. Right now we need him much more than we need 2 million or 5 million for that matter. I could care less about the wrong side of 30 too because i havent seen him lose a half a step and he is a physical speciman who should have 5+ elite years left in him.

    1. earnst82—-Davis is not a smart man. He is being used as a pawn by his investment firm as a test case for how far they can go with the NFL. They have convinced him that they are his long term friends. LOL. They will throw him under the bus as soon as he stops being useful. He was stupid to put his trust in them.

      The team and the NFL can not afford to give in to Davis under these circumstances. You need to understand it is not about money but precedent. Some teams might morgage their futures for the present but the 49ers are not one of those teams.

  27. Regarding if VD is more important than Kap/Harbaugh to this team, that was the record before Harbaugh came to the team and Davis was part of it.

    2006: 7-9
    2007: 5-11
    2008: 7-9
    2009: 8-8
    2010: 6-10

    1. That only shows the value of Harbaugh. In 2011 and 2012 the 49ers were 20-6 with The same guy at QB as those dreadful years. Since the switch to Kaepernick they are 21-8.

  28. In my mind, Kap is absolutely more important to the team than VD and the team will at least win 10 games if VD is not part of it.

    Also the team shouldn’t give up to VD’s demands because it’ll set a scary precedent. Sooner or later there’ll be a line of players wanting to get more before their contracts expire because they had a “great” year. Even if they signed a contract recently. That’s not a kindergarten. This has a potential to destroy a team. Of course Baalke will not budge to that. He’s not stupid. And Marathe too!

  29. I also think the Lowells’ so vehemently defend VD, because he answers their questions in a “good manner” and thus is a good guy. But Jim Harbaugh and Kap maybe not and thus they’re the “bad guys”.

  30. It might be that the Niner’s will have to trade Davis. As much as he means to them it might be the only way out of this. I don’t think it is about the money but rather the precedent it sets. The money is short term but the precedent last forever.

    As I have stated before this is more involved than just the Niner’s contract with Davis. It’s about how NFL teams will deal with players that get them selves involved with investment companys. This adds an entirely different dynamic to negotiations. Much as when agents were introduced into the process. As I also stated this is a trial case and what comes out of this will have long term effects beyond Davis’s contract. I hope the Niner front office is aware of this. Davis doesn’t realize it but he is just a pawn that the the investment company is using for this purpose.

  31. The argument on both sides regarding VD have merit. VD is valuable to team success, and the pursuit of a new contract with two years remaining on his existing one smacks of selfishness.

    But the old school thought of ‘principle’ (honoring his present contract) is an antiquated idea that no longer applies in the world of sports.

    Kaep broke open a can of worms in the 49ers FO with his new deal and it does not surprise me that other players follow suit.
    And the potential for more players asking ‘to get paid’ could swell if the team actually wins a SB this coming season.

    1. Im sorry I have to disagree. Kap is a quarterback and as such is treated differently than all other players. No president or can of worms was opened by renegotiating a longer deal with him. This is not a 49ers thing is a league wide thing that all players and agents may not like but have long come to understand.

      The niners have the leverage here because VD will have a hard time holding out for 2 years.

      1. Shoupbj
        Zactly. That precedent was set years and years ago and is standard practice around the NFL. Not Kap-specific. Not QB-specific. Not news.

  32. Apples to oranges. Kaepernicks’ deal fits his situation. I’m a glass half full guy, and I’m anticipating this working in the 49ers favor. This could help make room for Lloyd, and force Roman to install an offense without VD…..

  33. Its amusing this morning to scroll through the debate on Vernon and his holdout. In particular the juxtaposition of Grant defending a 49er player’s worth to 49er fans; WTH?
    ; >)
    A couple of thoughts:
    > Vernon’s request has nothing to do with Colin’s deal, which was anticipated, like Wilson’s up in Seattle will be; its an anticipated reality.
    > When judging whether a front-loaded bonus counts as payment after its been paid perhaps judge it by how the IRS views it; paid is paid and it counts. Timing is one thing, but paid is paid. Does the down payment on my house count against the principle and interest in my mortgage? Of course.
    > The problem with reworking VD now is not the dollars but the interruption of the FO’s sequencing and Cap management.
    > The offense, THIS offense would miss VD hugely but would carry on. Only win 6 games w/o him? I’m selling that.
    > This offense does need a better deep threat, buying that, even with play calling and style Roman runs. DB’s around the league pretty much all say they’ll creep up and load the box against SF until they get burned by doing it. But you don’t always beat 8 by throwing the Post or Fly.
    > V-Mac has learned to block, now he needs to catch the dang ball when its thrown to him; not to replace Vernon, to complement him like DW did.

    1. It’s funny that Hammer states the team is so good that any quarterback could guide them to 10 victories, but without VD the team suddenly is now only worth 6 victories. Not SOLD on this logic……

        1. He’s not as essential to this offense as in years past. They have too many receiving weapons to pay him…….

          1. Who is the other vertical threat? Davis has been more productive down the field than any other receiver on their roster over the last three years.

            1. They added Stevie Johnson, Llyod and Ellington to a healthy Crabtree and Boldin. Too many ways to leave your scorned lover. Any receiver that gets behind the secondary….

              1. They haven’t been as effective in that role because they haven’t been asked to be. Davis plays his role in the offense and does it well, but that doesn’t mean he’s the only one who can do it.

              2. @Hammer

                2013 against the Seahawks, VD catches 7 balls, totaling 57 yards with one TD. He averaged about 7 yards a catch. That’s not effectively deep to me….

              3. Vernon Davis in 3 games against Seattle last season:

                7 catches 57 yards and a TD.

                Vernon Davis in 2 games against Seattle in 2012

                1 catch 27 yards

                Davis has been a non factor against Seattle.

              4. 1 TD does not make up for disappearing in all the others, especially when you are asking for your contract to be renegotiated.

              5. I don’t care about him asking for a new contract. It has no effect on how I think he impacts the 49ers offense.

              6. A contract is based on production. He’s asking for a new deal when he’s been non effective against the teams biggest rival. You may not care about it, but the team does.

              7. A more pertinent question would be, why does VD leave his feet and wait for the football to hit his body? Why didn’t he run through the route and snag the ball with his hands? He’s not a natural pass catcher……

  34. Hey Grant (and those who are foolishly agreeing with him): you’re nuts. I don’t care who the te is, he’s not more important than the qb.

    Read that a few more times. Kaepernick got a “prove it” deal that yes pays more than Vernon. Kaepernick is worth it. You can’t trot Josh Johnson out there and win games. Good Qb’s make that kind of money because they do so much. Every single team we play has to adjust their scheme to account for Kaepernick. He’s a threat on every play, running and passing. Everything goes through him. Vernon is a star for sure but the offense goes through Kaepernick. This is basic football 101. Stop pretending that a te can be the most important player on the offense. It doesn’t matter how many times you say it, it’s false.

    Losing Davis (which isn’t realistically in play you hyper ventilating maniacs) would call on the offense adjusting- just like it did last year when Crabtree went down making Vernon more important. The best this team has looked on offense was in 2012 when Kaepernick took over and our best weapons then were Crabtree receiving and Kaepernick running. Does no one remember all the talk of Vernon becoming a glorified wr to cover for Crabtree? Crabtree is back and we have reinforcements at wr as well.

    Your obsession with “deep threats” is bizarre. Vernon is a great te and he’s the best deep threat we’ve had lately. But despite that, teams have been stacking the box against us, sneaking their safeties up to where linebackers typically play. Without Davis do you think opposing defenses will be playing their safeties on the line by their nose tackle? The box is stacked with 7-8 guys every week. That’s as stacked as it can be. It seems Vernon did very little to “stretch” opposing defenses.

    Lastly: all this talk of Vernon only making 4 Million this year? That might be the craziest part of all. NFL contracts pay a variety of bonuses the largest of which is a signing bonus. Again, this is common knowledge and common practice. Just because Vernon didn’t receive that money this year is irrelevant. If you make a large down payment on a mortgage to reduce your monthly payment the bank can’t come to you and say “hey you haven’t been paying us enough lately.” Vernon has been fairly compensated. I get that he wants more, who doesn’t. But the arguments you’re making here don’t hold water.

    At all.

    1. Hah! I love the passion, heehee. Your point about him being or not being on the roster is well taken; he will be come live games. He won’t miss Game Checks.
      Another point I haven’t seen mentioned is that the Largest Contract (by position) rotates around. Brady signs the biggest deal. Then Rodgers signs the biggest deal. Then Flacco. Whoa! Should Rodgers and Brady then hold out until their deals are readjusted? No, their time will come around again. Vernon got paid ahead of Graham and was making more money. Now Graham will get paid and probably make more money than Davis, but his deal will be redone before Graham’s. No one can be the highest paid guy every second.

  35. Isn’t this what big name veterans say and do in the summer so they don’t have to show up in June? I’ll care if he’s still holding out after the final preseason game otherwise I don’t see what the fuss is aboot.(that’s for you Angus)

  36. I kind of just figured that Vernon went a little Hollywood on us, but nope; Crab15 said yesterday that he went Corona on us. ; >)

  37. And the topic goes off the cliff. I’m going to try and wade through the rhetoric BS and put some facts up to look at and discuss.

    Vernon Davis is a very important key to the Niners offense. He’s also never been the top receiver in the offense.

    Vernon Davis is our only deep threat, because Davis is the only one they’ve tried in that role. I’ve read some try to say “he clears the field for everybody else”, yet week after week teams crowd the box against the Niners. If they are relying on Davis for that role, he’s not doing a very good job.

    Vernon Davis is going to make about 4 mill in base salary, but has already been paid about 3+ million toward this season making his actual salary 7+ million.

    Colin Kaepernick got a new deal because he is a young QB that the team sees as the franchise player going forward. Every team in the league does this with young QB’s if they get the chance. It has never led to other players automatically believing they qualify for a renegotiation and certainly not with 2 years left on a contract. This line of reasoning is pure nonsense.

    The Niner offense is a power running, play action pass system that has always featured a WR as the top pass catcher. Not having Vernon Davis would certainly hurt them, but that is based on the fact they have featured Davis as the second receiver and deep threat. It only stands to reason that if you don’t have that particular player you change your system to feature somebody else instead. It’s called adapting and Coaching, and to suggest this team could not formulate a good passing offense with the stable of WR’s they have is absurd.

    For a long time now some who frequent this board have dismissed the importance of the QB in this offense because of the reliance on the running game and the defense. Now we have two who have taken it a step further in suggesting the Niners are a 6 win team without Vernon Davis. I have read a lot of ludicrous opinions and suggestions on this and other boards over the years, but this is now officially the most ill informed, nonsensical statement I have ever read on a Niner message board. Congratulations to Grant and Jack Hammer for claiming this honor.

    Now here’s how I believe it’s going to go, not because I’m smarter than anyone else or work in an NFL office, but because I’ve watched the NFL for a long time and know how this league works.

    Davis will not get more money unless he agrees to a low money extension, and whether he does or does not, he will be in the lineup on opening day because there is no way he’s going to flush money down the toilet with two years remaining on a contract. It’s just common sense that anyone who has watched the league operate should know. Players do not often get their way when they hold out and virtually never when having multiple years left on a contract.

    This is also not a case of just giving a player more money to keep him happy. If you give the player what he wants, it sets a precedent that the team will give in to pressure applied by players and even if you have multiple years left on a deal that pays you fairly, you can get out of it if you force the issue and holdout. That is why the team will not give in to Davis’ demands and why they really can’t even if they wanted to. This team is going to be counting every dollar next year due to the fact they are already 10 million over the cap until the number goes up. When you add in the fact they have a number of key FA’s coming up at the end of the season, you quickly see that there is no room to give a player under contract more money.

    We are now into the first day of a mandatory minicamp and Vernon Davis is a no show. I’ve said for weeks that this was not how a leader carries himself, and that Davis is acting more like a petulant child than the leader he sees himself as. To miss a mandatory session just reinforces my feelings and Davis has lost a lot of respect in that locker room imo. Not a good start for a team hoping to make a run at a SB.

    1. I agree rocket.

      And the only reason this team goes to a 6 team win without Davis is if they continue trying to play the exact same offense they’ve played the past 2 years but with McDonald. They wouldn’t do this. They’d mix in more multiple WR sets, and adapt to use the strengths of the talented WR crop they have.

      I still think an extension is a strong possibility, but I can’t imagine it will pay him more annually. And the discussion that he’s only being paid $4M this year annoys me. Contracts are structured different ways. For example, Cutler has a salary only contract, while most contracts involve many other bonuses. When Vernon signed his deal he knew what it paid overall, and that it was a commitment over the life of the contract. They did him a favour by paying much of that upfront (and yes, it worked for the team too as they knew they had cap room to fill, and wanted to keep his cap hit lower in later years). On average he’s the 3rd highest paid TE in the league, and the 49ers highest paid receiver. To say he is now underpaid, with two years left on his contract, is a load of horse$#@t.

      If the 49ers cave in to him and pay him more money, the line outside the door will go on forever. Can’t do it. And they didn’t set a precedent with Kaep. He would have been a FA at the end of the year, and the team would have run the risk of losing him. Not the case with Davis. The realities of the NFL are that there is only a certain amount of money a team can pay its players. And the players once under contract are obligated to see out their contract.

  38. I know some don’t like to read about Seahawks news around here and I understand that, but I feel compelled to point out that Marshawn Lynch is attending Seattle’s mandatory Minicamp while wanting his Contract renegotiated with multiple years on it just like Davis.

    Clear example of the right way to go about your business vs. the wrong way.

    1. Rocket, correct! Whether we should address Vernon’s contract is worthy of debate. But so far Grant seems to be the only person on this board willing to reward Vernon’s ABSENCE with a new deal.

  39. I have given this a bit more thought and it came to me that you are right about Kaepernicks contract setting this in motion. But not for the reason you think- you are wrong in that respect.

    The reason that Kaeps contract set this in motion was because of the way it was “team friendly” and structured based on performance. It set a precedent for future hard ball negotiations with players by the front office. It is because of this that Davis felt pressured to ask for an extension this year rather than later. The addition of a solid wide receiver corps almost guarantee’s that Davis’s numbers and along with it his leverage for negotiations. As Grant stated the numbers from last season support his contentions to how valuable he was to the team. However that will decline this year and along with it his number supported leverage.

    With Kaeps team friendly contract which the front office can use for negotiating with other players, the reality that he would not be able to get the final contract he once felt he could get. The reality sunk in that he was losing more leverage the longer he waited so he had to strike now. Davis didn’t figure this out himself but was advised to do this by his “Brand” advisers. So in a way it was instigated by Kaeps contract. But not because of it’s precedent for renegotiation but because of it being based on a low guarantee high performance standard. They know that for Davis his future performance would for a variety of reason decline and that along with the low up front bonus scared them into making their move at this more optimum time.

    1. That’s true, this probably is VD’s last good opportunity to ask the 49ers to renegotiate his contract. His numbers probably will go down next season as Roman uses him more as a decoy.

    2. Willtalk,

      That’s one of the points Pat Kirwan made in the article I posted and on his Sirius radio show. It could definitely be a factor.

      1. Maybe I should have read the article. It would have saved me some effort in my post. I could have just referred to it.

    3. The you I was referring to in my last post was Grant. Also I want to add that when considering the rational for Davis’s move in respect to the reasoning I articulated, I feel that this is just a bluff and Davis will not sit out very long.

      1. The more I dwell on it the more I am convinced that this is actually the case. The results of the Kaepernick contract threw a wrench in their plans for Davis’s future extension. Davis’s constant changing of his mind about what his plans are for mini or training camps is reflect the brainstorming of his, advisers behind the scenes,on how to deal with the situation. Davis is just repeating what was said in their brainstorming sessions. It implies that their plan is being formulated on the fly. They themselves haven’t quit figured out how to deal with it. That also puts into question my previous statement as to it being totally a bluff. This is critical for them as far as there future in dealing with NFL clients and since they are winging it anything might be possible.

  40. VD says: “It’s all about getting paid what you deserve. It’s not that complicated.”

    That’s fine VD but if you suck and have a bad year, I’m sure you’ll agree the Niners can give you a pay reduction next year right?

  41. Most contracts (like CK’s) are less then what’s initially reported.
    A few contracts (like Vernon’s) are more then what’s reported.

    Am I wrong, or does “front loaded” mean Vernon already got an advance on his 2014-15 pay? In 2010 he happily signed a front loaded five-year contract for $37M, $23M guaranteed with a nice $10M signing bonus.

    Understanding Vernon’s already been partially paid for 2014-15, its possible he could be still be the highest paid TE in football, not the “3rd highest paid.”

    (To make it more fun, Vernon was the highest paid TE in 2006. The 49ers were enormously patient during his clanker drop period 2006-2010 to pay him such huge money, but they had an eye on the future.)

    I wonder how many front loaded contracts remain on the 49ers roster. Aside from the usual signing bonuses, I’m betting Baalke would be hesitant to structure contracts the way Vernon’s is.

    1. Brodie,

      Yes he’s been paid part of his salary for this year in the signing bonus he was given upon signing the contract. His salary including the pro ration of the SB he was given, is over 7 million and is also his charge against the cap. He is now the 3rd highest paid TE in the league but apparently that isn’t enough for him. Kirwan ran down a number of stat categories in his column and Davis was not even top 5 in most, yet isn’t satisfied with his standing as #3. There’s wanting more money because you think you’ve earned it and then there is wanting money…because you want more money. Davis has been paid more than fairly and doesn’t have a leg to stand on in making a case otherwise imo.

      1. Rocket– I think from what I have seen of the average of the contracts Davis is actually #2. The amount that he is getting for this year puts him at #3. I think some of the other TE have their contract back loaded.

      2. Performance vs value, Vernon’s massive pay from 2006-2010 was effectively an advance. Twice during this period (2006, 2010) he was the highest paid TE in football. From 2006-2010 Vernon was way overpaid relative to field productivity.

        The 49ers paid a massive price to develop Vernon. It took five years for him to come into form as a pass catcher. The 49ers patience is not being rewarded.

        1. “From 2006-2010 Vernon was way overpaid relative to field productivity.” Correction: Vernon actually had a very good 2010.

          As much as I don’t like the reasoning behind his holdout, I think he’s a great player. His value always doesn’t show up in stats. His speed puts pressure on defenses, creating gaps other 49ers can (or should) exploit.

    1. He sees the writing on the wall. There’s no vacancy. I never understood what Baalke saw in him, because clearly Fangio had more confidence in Cox…….

      1. Wasn’t Wright a Mangini recommendation?

        Speaking of Manginni, it bust be frustrating to be the new tight end coach with Davis holding out.

  42. The doldrums of Summer have left us tearing at each other simply for something to do. Time for a distraction;

  43. I can’t wait to see the “brand” tank when he starts losing $30,000 a day and his signing bonus becomes subject to forfeiture if he’s not at training camp……

  44. Productivity of current 49ers Receivers/TE’s on passes of 20+ yards since 2011:

    Boldin: 47 Targets, 23 Receptions (49%), 658 yards (14.0/tgt), 5 TD (10.6%)
    Davis: 50 Targets, 23 Receptions (46%), 779 yards (15.5/tgt), 8 TD (16%)
    Crabtree: 27 Targets, 12 Receptions (44.4%), 424 yards (15.7/tgt), 4 TD (14.8%)
    Johnson: 45 Targets, 15 Receptions (33.3%), 496 yards (11.0/tgt), 4 TD (8.9%)
    Lloyd: 75 Targets, 22 Receptions (29.3%), 620 yards (8.27/tgt), 6 TD (8.0%)

    1. This doesn’t help your argument Jack. Looking at this, Boldin and Crabtree could fill the role if Davis isn’t around. So much for needing the speed threat.

      1. Not to mention Lloyd – I realise on those stats it would seem he is below average on deep balls, but with 75 targets it shows he has a knack for getting deep, and he can draw coverage. Not bad since he is also missing one full season compared to the other guys (except Crabtree, who missed most of 2013 too). And I’d be interested to see what Brady’s completion % on deep balls is to other receivers…

        1. “I’d be interested to see what Brady’s completion % on deep balls is to other receivers…”

          In 2012 the only other receiver to get more than 4 deep targets was Welker who had 7 receptions on 17 targets for 244 yards and 1 TD, compared to Lloyd who had 9 receptions on 32 targets for 257 yards and 3 TD. Gronkowski had the most of his TE’s with 5 receptions on 10 targets for 143 yards and 2 TD.

          1. So Lloyd was pretty much the only deep threat on the team then?

            In 2011, Brady only completed 15 of 57 deep passes (passes of 20+ yards). I haven’t got the full years stats for 2013, but according to this article on 22nd November last year he was completing just over 22% of his passes over 20 yards in 2013 at the time.

            http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10017366/nfl-examining-tom-brady-arm-strength-issues-season

            Basically, Brady isn’t good at getting the ball deep, which likely impacts on Lloyd’s numbers. But Lloyd goes deep often.

              1. So around the same completion % he had to Lloyd in 2012 on passes of 20+ yards. I’d suggest the issue was at least as much Brady as it was Lloyd for Lloyd not having a higher completion % in 2012.

                In 2011, Lloyd had a disrupted year switching teams after 4 games with Denver, then playing with 3 different starting QBs at the Rams.

                Anyway, just trying to point out that Lloyd is a legitimate deep threat WR, and the low completion %s on passes over 20+ yards from 2011 do have some back-story.

        2. Good point Scooter. Lloyd has shown a propensity for it and if he continues to play the way he has in OTA’s, he’s going to be hard to cut.

          Greg Roman appears to understand that changes have to be made and one of them could be getting multiple WR’s involved.

          1. I said earlier Lloyd would make the team if VD holds out. The 49ers could go with four wide receivers on passing downs as opposed to three WRs and one TE.

  45. Hey Scooter…

    Did you catch yesterday’s games? What’d you think of US late score and Portugal’s beat down???

    1. Unfortunately I didn’t see the games but a good win for the US. And ze Germans appear to be their typical clinical selves – they should go far in the World Cup again this year.

    2. No doubt….its a thing of beauty. That’s exactly how soccer needs to be played. Very systematic and meticulous. I was hoping Jurgen would bring that same style to the US, but we just lack the discipline and experience.

  46. I hate that Vernon said he has outplayed his contract signed in 2010. So my question is what do teams expect when a player signs a contract? Do they expect him play at the exact same level at the time of signing, or do they expect the player to get better? Obviously when the 49ers signed Kap to his big deal they expect him to become a better QB. If he doesn’t then he wont be worth his contract. His contract was an investment. Vernon is learning a lot about investments and he should know that in 2010 the 49ers were paying him for what he could do at the time and what he could become afterward. Maybe he should remember that his first contract he was highly overpaid and unplayed his contract value. Did the 49ers take money away from? So why is he trying to take money away now. He needs to wake up be the player he said he was last year. When he said that he wanted to be like T.O. and how it was all about him when he came into the league. What a bunch of hot air. I say trade the chump, play more 3 WRs, force the D to play nickel and have Hyde run over their extra DB.

    1. Makes sense Hunter is in no hurry. Reports are he’s looking good. If he can play to pre-injury 2012 form (over 5 YPC) this season he will cash in nicely after the season.

  47. Greg Roman quotes from Cam Inman

    The 49ers will use a “different offense” this season.

    “Starting with the beginning of the offseason, we as the offensive staff, after three years here, it was kind of a time-to-clean-out-the-garage type of thing…”

    “We went through everything we’ve done and really stripped it back down to its most element, basic parts and start over at square one.”

    “It’s fair to make the statement it’s a different offense… We’ve got some new guys in.”

    “Marcus Martin is doing a really good job as a rookie… There’s so much a center has to do week in and week out. He’s done a really good job against our defense, not just physically but mentally as well.”

    (I hope some of these changes include streamlined pre-snap communication and a few quick-count snaps per game)

    1. Harbaugh quotes via Matt Maiocco

      “I’m disappointed in that decision for them (Vernon and Boone) not to be here.”

      “Now, it’s mandatory and wish they could’ve . . . (it’s) not the decision I envision being the 49er way.”

      These seem like mild statements, but have impact when you consider Harbaugh avoids negative statements about players and coaches.

    1. I think they anticipated this move through the draft and bringing Cox back, but NFL Insider stated the 49ers were interested. Problem is, so are 8-10 other teams last I checked…….

    1. Maiocco had very little to say about today’s practice. Very little from any of the locals… except for some player and coach quotes.

  48. It’s hard to believe that Grant (or anyone, for that matter), believes that once a signing bonus is paid, it doesn’t figure in to a player’s yearly compensation. I know this has been well discussed, but the fractured logic is just so astounding, I couldn’t help myself.

    1. exgolfer:

      Unfortunately, this isn’t the first time. When commenters refute an argument Grant didn’t put enough thought into, instead of acknowledging the point(s) they make, he doubles down and throws out silly/ridiculous statements to support his position.

      1. From the standpoint of cash in hand for this year, he is only getting $4 million. That is correct. But that is not his financial compensation for playing this season, which Grant has been trying to suggest. He is not being paid $4 million to play this year, he is simply being paid $4 million in this year of his contract.

        The signing bonus not only counts toward the salary cap over a pro-rated period, it is part of the individual’s compensation for agreeing to terms on a contract over a period of time. The understanding on signing is that the player is getting that bonus now, to fulfill the terms of the agreement over the course of the contract. It forms part of Vernon’s financial compensation this season even if he received it 3-4 years ago.

        1. I could be wrong, but I think Grant is arguing it from Davis’ point of view which is he’s only getting paid $4.7M this year.

          Forget the average, I get that. I think it’s a cash in hand argument.

          1. I am guessing that is what Grant is doing too, but it not a valid argument.

            When Vernon signed his contract in 2010, he did not get paid over $16M cash in hand that year for playing the 2010 season. Most of that money was in signing bonus and represented compensation for future years. I am sure he understood this. If he didn’t, he certainly isn’t the savvy business man he believes himself to be.

            1. Oh I’m sure he understood it back then. Now he’s looking at only $4.7M this season and $4.3M next year with Kaepernick now taking up a lot of future cap space and he’s realizing his days to cash in are numbered.

              1. “he’s realizing his days to cash in are numbered.”

                I imagine that is first, second and third in the list of reasons he is holding out. It is not his $4.7M salary, or where his current compensation sits compared with other TEs, but his future ability to command a big dollar contract when his current deal is up.

                He may try to use his $4.7M salary as a rationale for saying he is also underpaid today, but as I outlined, this is a bogus argument and the 49ers know it.

              2. I think the $4.7M is definitely part of the reason for wanting it and the reasons you have outlined will be part of the 49ers’ reasons for not giving in.

                This will be an interesting one to watch.

      2. While true, Jack, it’s totally irrelevant. VD didn’t seem to have any problem with receiving the cash up front. It’s cynical and disingenuous for him to ignore the fact that a prorated portion of that signing bonus is part of this year’s salary.

        1. Cynical and disingenuous? It’s not as though Davis is the first player to hold out despite getting big money up front in their current deal.

          1. Jack,

            What I find cynical and disingenuous is Davis’ apparent denial of the fact that a prorated portion signing bonus should be included in each years salary over the life of the contract. If he thinks that $7M plus for 2014 makes him underpaid and he’s holding out on that basis, then more power to him. I think he’s making the wrong decision, but it’s his career to screw up, not mine.

      3. Jack:

        Yeah, but that’s the way he wanted to structure his contract. He could have taken a smaller signing bonus in return for more salary in the later years of his contract, but he didn’t. For good reason.

  49. Way to put the team first Vernon….you learned absolutely nothing from Mike Singletary….yeah, go ahead and hold out. What are you going to accomplish by doing that? You have two years remaining on a contract that you signed two years ago, and the TEAM has other players that have been playing for league minimum or Rookie contracts (Alex Boone and Mile Iupati) that are just as important, if not more important, to the TEAMS success than you are..go ahead and hold out, lose the bonus money you’re entitled to for missing OTA’s and other post season workouts….don’t worry, if the TEAM chooses to, they’ll Franchise Tag you in two years, then where will you be?

  50. From the Pat Kirwan article linked above, “In critical situations like fourth-quarter receptions, Davis was the 30th-ranked tight end in the league.”

    What role does Kaepernick throwing the third fewest 4th quarter passes of any QB in league who started the majority of games for their team play in this stat?

  51. Gentlemen,

    As a 9er diehard, I have little choice, but to believe that this VD outbreak will be contained before serious damage incurs.

    But such should serve as a sobering reminder, as to how quickly and unexpectedly that SB window can slam shut. Particularly with a GM who can’t distinguish between a phenom WR, and a graham cracker.

    And to those of you who are so quick to praise our GM’s red-shirt strategy I ask, how many of you, if you could go back to the 2013 draft, and move up just a few slots- for a bag of chips- and steal WR/KR Cordy Patterson, would have traded down instead?

    Further still, how many would rather be going to TC THIS year with Patterson, and possibly a Lombardi, even if it meant giving up Tank and VMac, and even Lattimore? I sure as hell would. Of course, I would have drafted TE Amaro, then taken a flyer on Layerla in the 7th, as stated.

    And further still, how many would prefer this year’s 3rd rd red-shirt pick, Ol Brandon Thomas, over flash WR John Brown? For those of you who don’t even suspect, Brown compares well to Cooks. Except that the Saints had to trade up in the 1st for Cooks, while Brown was had near the bottom of the 3rd.

    But the main point is that Brown should have an opportunity to play and contribute THIS year, while Brandon Thomas will be in rehab for at least this season?

    Do any of you really think VD would be holding out, if we had Brown AND Patterson to stretch D’s?

    1. Yes, I for one do. Vernon’s (and Boone’s) holdouts are personal to advance their own careers. Some of us have speculated that Vernon is being coached by financial advisers, but who else is on the roster has zero impact of VD’s decisions. I believe the holdout was planned from the time he signed the deal with the investment group. He was going to do what he was going to do even if the team had landed Watkins, Evans or Cooks.
      As to Trent I think using hindsight analysis is a bit too convenient; he could of done this, he should of done that……yeah and the Niners should have taken Brady in the 5th round that year he came out too.

  52. Miss Daisy, proper southern ladies shouldn’t speak that way. You sure have been grumpy lately. Are you going through the change? You might want to ask Hoke to drive you to the doctor.

  53. Par for the course around here. Hammer gets to post an image of a jock strap on a male face to make a point, however when I tried to respond in kind, not allowed…..

  54. You too? Good, then I won’t take my non hateful posts being moderated yesterday personally. Or my posts not coming up at all.

  55. Razor, I tried to come in to bolster your argument against trolls posting Seahawk links the other day but I was already blocked for attempting to do so earlier. If your views don’t side with the anti-Niner vibe that’s strangely okay here on this blog you can and will get blocked.

  56. Stop the double standards. Seriously, the word “jugs” used with machine gets banned, while posters are allowed to have vulgar names and perverted references? Let’s use some common sense software……

  57. That reminds me, I’m having some buddies over for dinner this Thursday, you would be a great guest. Care to join us?

  58. Miss Daisy, will your wife’s panties also be in a bunch over the vulgar screen names allowed on this blog?

  59. Miss Daisy, proper southern ladies shouldn’t speak that way. You sure have been grumpy lately. Are you going through the change? You might want to ask Hoke to drive you to the doctor.

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