Who will start at cornerback for the 49ers in 2015?

One of the 49ers’ starting cornerbacks next season will be Tramaine Brock. That’s obvious.

Who do you think the other starting cornerback should be, and why? Who should start opposite Brock Week 1?

Please explain your answer.

  1. Dontae. Wright has already shown what he can do. The job is up for d. Johnson to go get- he’s the only guy I see that could have starter potential.

    1. Las Vegas lists 49ers as 40-1 odds to win the SuperBowl. For those not into gambling, that means if you drop ten bucks on the niners and won, your winnings would be $400. How many of you have played the slots?… Las Vegas is not into giving away money so be careful out there.

      1. Vegas also has the 49ers listed in last in the NFC West, with the Rams and that swashbuckler coach, Jeff fisher ahead of them.

  2. Until we start hearing rumblings from training camp or individual performances in pre-season games I’d have to default to your earlier reasoning that based on contract Shareece Wright is the most likely candidate to start opposite Brock.

  3. Tough one to call. I’m going to say Shareece “Carlos Rogers” Wright, as I think his starting experience will give him the edge. But I’m hoping one of the 2nd year players beats him out.

    1. Scooter:

      Wanting to get more information on Wright finally caused me to break down and pay for PFF. I thought I remembered that he did fairly well in his last few games (it turns out he didn’t). The PFF stats show that his overall ranking last year was 105 out of 108. If you just look at coverage statistics he ranked 106 out of 108. Surprisingly, Kyle Fuller ranked 107 out of 108 even though the rating of QBs throwing into Fuller’s area was 89.6. The rating of QBs throwing into Wright’s areas was 95.5. For perspective, Vontae Davis had the best rating at 38.8 and David Amerson of Washington had the worst QB rating of 140.2.

      I just don’t know what to make of Wright. His stats are a cause for concern. As CFC said, we’ll have to wait until training camp, but this seems like a pretty big risk on Baalke’s part.

      1. This confirms everything I’ve been suspecting. Who is this Shareece Wright and why is everyone all of a sudden calling him starting material?

        Just because Carlos Rogers did a major career turnaround with us doesn’t mean every near bust CB can be transformed into a starter on the 49ers.

        1. Rogers started holding on to his interception opportunities, and Wilson will be working for different coaches. How can they be compared?

      2. Wright numbers at Football Outsiders are not that bad.

        Which just shows that the charting on those sites have a subjective component that should not be ignored.

    2. Outside of blog favorite Reaser I’m a fan of Johnson. He had a bad last game against Arizona that brought his grade down and although it’s still hardly stellar if you play the exclusion game with that last score his play leaves a desire to see more. I think he’ll get more shots at slot this season, especially when playing the Seahawks. He had 191 snaps at slot last season and some of his better overall performances came from that spot.

      1. Now that I paid for the PFF service, I gotta get my money’s worth. Johnson’s overall ranking last year was tied for 51st with three other players. Opposing QB rating was 106.3. He ranked positive against the run and neutral with regards to penalties. It’s a bit of a mystery to me how PFF creates the ratings. For example, the three other guys tied at 51st have opposing QB ratings that range from 79.2 to 131. That’s not something I would have expected.

    3. Baalke gets the benefit of the doubt IMO. The man has proven he can find corners anywhere. I think it says a lot of what he thinks about our corners when they lost two and only brought in Wright. First look at our front 7 and how many pass rushers we have on our team now. The Tank, Dockett, Aldon, Lynch, Harold, Brooks and possibly Lemonier if he ever develops a second move. When you are talking about Wright he played behind a horrid pass rush so coming here as long as everyone is healthy our pass rush should help him immensely. Baalke got to see Wright up close last year when they played here at the end of the year so he must have seen enough. Baalke also must have liked what he saw out of Johnson last year and so did I. Reaser could have gone as high as the 3rd if healthy and has had a nice offseason. With the injuries last year we got to see Cromartie and he played well the more he was out there IMO. Acker has also shown some good things in the preseason last year and in OTAs so far this year. Cook is back and has always had a ton of talent and showed that he might have been putting it all together before the injury last year. We lost Cox who was way overpaid because he was horrible towards the end of last year but his great first half camouflaged it. Culliver was a solid corner on the field but an idiot off it and didn’t deserve the money the Skins gave him. I just didn’t think you could trust him. The so called experts were worried about the CB position last year but they turned out to be pretty solid. I think this year’s crop will again surprise some people. They are loaded with potential and talent now they just have to go out and show it and much like last year I think they do and have a chance to be even better. The fact is it all starts up front with the pass rush and if that is solid I think the corners shine.

      1. Trent does do really well with certain positions, especially in the later rounds. He should probably trade all the Niners second round picks to move down for as long as he is GM. He would get better players than those he would draft high. lol

  4. I’d agree it’s mostly obvious that Brock will be starting week 1 but will he still be starting at week 10, excluding injury?

      1. Grant,
        I see you mentioned Reaser’s blood tie with Sean Taylor early in your breakdown of Reaser. Does that have anything to do with the poster the other day that wanted to crucify you for never mentioning the Sean Taylor angle? Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s definitely worth mentioning, I was just amused to see it and wondered if that angry post was still floating around in your head.

        1. Bar None-
          That poster was E, and I’m pretty sure Grant is used to E’s critiques by now. And to mine. : >)

        2. Bar None

          It wasn’t angry. It was encouraging him to get ahead of the curve, because when the national media gets its teeth into Reaser, the story will get out of hand.

          1. E,

            My bad, and I agree with what you’re saying. If Reaser has a big breakout year like we hope the big media guys from SI, ESPN, etc will be all over the Sean Taylor angle. I have a sneaky feeling that GC won’t let that happen and I think he should credit you for hitting him over the head with it when his name get’s credited with the initial “human interest story” angle.

            1. BarNone,

              That made me laugh out loud! Thanks. I’m interested to hear it from Reaser’s perspective, and I think another benefit of Grant (or another local guy) getting it before Reaser becomes a superstar is that he will probably be more forthcoming.

    1. Interesting perception vs reality mistake I made below. I thought Johnson as better outside, and vulnerable in the slot.

    2. I’d want to give these guys the eyeball test, so it’s a bit early for me to make guesses. I’d guess that Wright has an inside track to start on Opening Day, but I’d be delighted if Reaser can step right in. I worry about Johnson that he might be vulnerable deep, not just outside deep. Ward needs to re-establish himself. Sounds like some mix and match in the secondary with Mangini; but in an aggressive way. BB school of D.

    3. Brock as one of the best CBs in the league? That’s a bit generous based on his nine career starts, don’t you think?

      1. I was wondering about that statement myself. I looked up Brock’s statistics on PFF and here’s what they were in 2013. Overall rating is 14th out of 110. Opposing QB rating throwing to Brock’s area was 76.8. Looking at just his coverage ability he rated 9th out of 110. So, if you believe PFF statistics, Grant’s statement appears to be fair.

    4. I don’t get why you write this short teaser and an open question to the readers on this site (aka mailing it in) but write a very good article for BR? I really hated your articles here on the Press Democrat and stopped reading. I happen to catch your story on BR and then came back here to see what you’ve written lately (still disappointing content here not worth my time) but I will look for your better work on BR … guess that’s PD’s loss.

  5. I just don’t know enough about these guys to have a clear favorite. I also don’t know what Mangini has in store.

    Johnson – Under Fangio/Donatell I’d lean towards Dontae. In my mind he was a Culliver 2.0.

    Good size and athleticism. Not the shiftiest guy in the world. As long as he played disciplined, used the sideline and had safety help he was OK. A good system fit on a team that rarely blitzed. His big college weakness was getting burned by double moves while peeking into the backfield. He got bit a few times last year doing that too.

    But if the mini-camp is any indication, Mangini won’t just park a CB to his favorite side of the field. He’ll have less safety help too.

    Wright – All I know is the following narrative… “Sucky stats but Baalke sees alot of Carlos Rogers in him and thinks he can repeat Rogers’ 2011 improvement in a new system.”

    And the rest of the CBs have little or no game experience. Always a Malox Moment. That alone might make Wright the starter.

    Reaser – I heard tons, seen little. Just some college highlights and workout vines. I’m going on mini-camp reports alone.

    From a purely athletic standpoint Reaser is the man. He fits (what we are guessing is) Mangini’s new “follow your man” system. His on field attitude lends to that role well. He doesn’t back down from anyone.

    Conclusion: I have no idea.

    1) A wild hare guess? Wright stars because the are paying him decent money, Baalke likes him and he’s the only one with decent game experience.

    2) If Wright falters its Reaser. Reaser might take the job even if Wright plays decently. Reaser could rotate with Ward-Tartt for the slot role too.

    3) If Mangini shocks the world and keeps the same conservative coverages I’d prefer Johnson.

  6. Hard to say until we know the health status of each player.

    Brock – seems healthy now, but has been injured a lot .
    Reaser – coming back from ACL
    Ward – New screw in his foot

    Ideally I would say Brock and reaser w/ Johnson in the slot.

    1. Surely the ideal scenario would be for Ward to live up to his 1st round status and lock down the slot CB role? Have Johnson and Reaser as part of the competition for a starting role on the outside?

      1. It’s late in the evening (except where it isn’t), so forgive wild speculations, but we may see a variety of Slot CBs, Slot S, and hybrids depending upon weekly match-ups. Tartt or Ward can line up as disguised Nickle LBs and either cover or blitz or spy. Both could blitz from Slot S. Multiple possibilities.
        You have to pressure the passer, but you’d better confuse him too; at least to make him hesitate and give the Rush a chance.
        We’re going to see Aldon, Corey, and probably Eli too coming off the edge. I’m thinking that there will be team matchups too where Tank could come with a Wide 9 rush on second & long, then move inside on 3rd.
        2+3 downs we’ll be needing that interior push, and bottom line: we can’t let teams run on us. (See Rams & Seahawks)

        1. Yeah, you are likely right, the idea of starters could get a bit blurry all round this year on D. Lots of rotation and different starters depending on the various packages. Not just at DB.

        2. Yep, that’s the way I see it. For all intensive purposes, Brock and Wright will be opening day “starters”, but for the most part, Mangini will rotate DB’s depending on the given match ups. Confusion, flexibility and physicality are the calling cards in the Manginis’ defensive deck….

          1. Razor,
            Just a helpful FYI; the correct phrase is ” for all intents and purposes”.
            Just trying to help…

      2. ward has not been impressive in limited action. Let’s see if he can get healthy and realize his potential.

  7. It still amazes me on how much value people place in statistical analysis. There are so many variables that can dilute the results. I cant see how you can compare or contrast different players when the variables can be/are so dramatic.

    1. Weather conditions – hot, cold, snow, wind, rain.
    2. Field conditions – Dome, open air, grass, artificial, fan participation.
    3. Divisions – Type of teams in each division
    4. Scheme – might be the biggest thing that dictate player performance.
    5. Talent – not individual talent but overall team talent.
    6. Coaching – or the lack there of.
    7. Ownership
    8. Injuries – some players play thru them but their ability is diminished.

    Because there are so many important variables is why you can take one player that seemingly plays poorly and with a change of the variables the player is HOF. Of course it works the opposite, a player playing great FA/traded to another team and he becomes a wtf player.

    I am not saying statistical analysis has no merit, I just feel its way overrated and its most important contribution is for conversation.

    1. All things being equal (without injuries), from what I’ve seen Tramaine Brock, when healthy looks like the second coming of Deion Sanders…He’ll definitely be the starter…Maybe the 49ers could not make tackles and just cover so he’s healty all season and Tramaine could shut down half the football field, like Deion did, thus allowing more blitzing.

    2. I agree. Bad statistical analysis plagues us everywhere, including the world of football.

      On the other hand a Stradivarius may seem overrated in the hands of a bad violin player. I wouldn’t be surprised if people that employ statistics for a living cringe at their misuse even more than we do.

    3. Undercenter

      I really like your post; especially 5, 6, and 7. I think that we have probably the best (largest) group of CB’s that I can remember the 49ers having. Not that all of the previous ones were ‘dogfood’, but the speed, tackling, and cover skills from top to bottom are very close from what I can gather…I would feel comfortable with any two Tomsula picks. My hope is that with this bounty, he also rotates some of the others in for experience. I think that Brock and Shareece Wright would be the most logical starter choices at this point.

  8. Is Traimaine Brock a lock to be one of the starting corners? It took him nearly an entire season to get healthy and from all reports, he is still not 100%. I think as of today, our secondary is the biggest question mark going into training camp.

    1. Over the O-line huh? What’s the reasoning? Being they’ve been fine since baalkes arrival. The secondary that is.

  9. I thought that Donta Johnson did a fairly good job in his cameo appearances last year but the fact that the team signed Wright could be an indication that they want more security.

    Reaser had a good OTA and if can carry that over to TC he could become a strong candidate.

  10. With the Summer lull in full effect I figured it would be a good time to start the sign ups for those interested in a blog Fantasy league as well as the seemingly annual Pick’em league that Rocket keeps winning.

    I’ve created a 12 team league here is the link to join: https://yho.com/nfl?l=235969&k=95d391253fd10dfa&ikey=852f82785a2132c4

    (sorry for the caps)
    ONE RULE; YOU MUST USE YOUR INSIDE THE 49ERS SCREEN NAME SO WE CAN IDENTIFY YOU AS ONE OF OUR OWN. Any teams I can not confirm will be deleted before the season begins.

    Live draft is scheduled for Monday August 31st at 8pm.

    I’ll post a link for the Pick’Em league in a little bit.

    1. In case it needs to be said, anyone and everyone is welcome to join. Don’t let your personal feelings for yours truly effect having a good time with the others that join up as well.

      1. Thanks for coordinating each year. I’ll likely sign up for a lesson in humility with your Pick’em. My draft predix sure came off the rails in a hurry!

        1. The Pick’em hasn’t been activated yet by Yahoo I just discovered but when they do I’ll post the link.

        1. Thanks CFC!
          I either took 1st or 2nd…can’t really recall…the last 6 months has been a blur.
          Since the season ended I had a daughter get married, had my 1st grandchild born and had a son graduate from high school.
          Ready to get back to some football.
          If it’s cool I’ll sign up this evening.
          Has a blast last season.
          Thanks again!

  11. I have no idea who will start next to Brock but I do think Baalke has set up a great competition for all the DB spots. I can not wait for the first preseason game for no other reason than to watch the O line and DB competition.

    1. Good call noting Nick Bellore. He was signed to be the next Blake Costanzo. Most of the other roster predictions forget about him. I’d be surprised if he was cut.

    2. Grant, comprehensive and well reasoned. Thanks. The only question I have is about them carrying five OLBs versus three ILBs. Last year they had five OLBs with Skuta, but he also played ILB. Therefore, I see them parting with Lemonier and keeping Wheeler. Something I’m missing or overlooking?

    3. My thoughts are:

      – They will keep only 5 WRs. Too much competition and uncertainty going on at other positions. White has to find his way into the top 5 WR spots to stick in my opinion. If he is as good as you say, Simpson is the one I think is most on the bubble.
      – Looney will make the roster, ahead of Silberman. Silberman may stick as #9 OL if they choose to keep that many.
      – They won’t go with just 3 ILBs they feel comfortable starting if needed. If Bellore can convince the coaching staff he could play ILB if needed he’ll stick as the 4th ILB. Otherwise they’ll keep Wheeler (though they may also still keep Bellore for STs).
      – Agree Acker is right on the bubble – he’ll be competing with Cook for the last CB spot.
      – Agree TJE is likely a goner.
      – Trey Millard could surprise and take the 4th TE spot/ H-Back role. I know there is a lot of love for Carrier, but I don’t think his chances of making the 53 are that good. I’m not as big a fan as others.
      – Agree on Dahl. You don’t want him starting at safety, but he’s good on STs. McCray wasn’t that impressive last year.
      – Agree they will keep Lemonier unless they can get a decent trade offer for him (or another of the OLBs).
      – Everything we say here will no doubt be impacted by injuries – they are bound to happen, and some of the guys we say won’t make it will end up on the 53 covering for guys that get hurt.

    4. I like Anderson over White, and yes he was only a 3 star recruit. His calling card is after the catch. His change of pace and agility put pressure on defenses stretching them consistently. I thought he was able to adapt well to the injuries and inconsistencies at the quarterback position and the changes in OC’s into systems that did not fit his skill set. I see him as a good fit for the 49ers and he too has the vision and cuts to earn his keep early on as a returner. 5 receivers on the 53….

      Dahl is perhaps in the biggest competition of his 49er career in the 2015 training camp. Can’t argue with Scooters’ gut. Could lead to indigestion, but he makes it….

      VMac will be competing against Celek for the fourth TE on the roster, and yes they will definitely carry 4. The fact that he’s competing against Celek for the last spot tells the story. I expected big things from VMac and have been disappointed. I’m not expecting that to change much. Unlike Scooter, I don’t think Carrier is going anywhere….

      Granted I’m just a hack, but Nick Moody really looked like the light bulb was coming on towards the end of the season. I think he makes the team with them carrying 4 ILB’s….

      I’ve been anticipating The Reaser Files to be opened for 2 years now. Can’t wait to see where it leads. Acker vs. Cook, may the best man win….

      TJE out for sure….

      Looney is the final piece of humility left from Baalkes’ 2012 egotistical nightmare. I just don’t see him as anything more than a career backup. They keep 8 OL with Silberman/Looney/Farrell and Tiller fighting it out for the last spot….

      Wheeler will be your fourth ILB and Bellore might get the Osgood treatment….

      The Hayne Plane won’t get clearance for take off this year. Practice squad for sure….

      1. Razor,

        I disagree with your thoughts at TE. I don’t think McDonald is in any danger of being cut unless he suffers another injury. I think he’s firmly entrenched as the #2 TE due to his blocking, and is arguably the most explosive receiver of the group after Davis if they ever get him involved in the passing game regularly. I understand your disappointment, but between not targeting him in the passing game and his back injury, the lack of production is really not McDonald’s fault. The fact that he became the best blocking TE on the team was a nice bonus.

        Anderson is likely ticketed for the PS, unless like I said with White, he blows up in preseason.

        1. Celek is also a very good blocker Rocket so I’m not sure just how firm VMacs’ entrenchment is at number two. If Carrier starts out on the PUP, then Celek and VMac will both make the team. They can then evaluate their performances and determine which one to dispatch when Carrier returns….

          1. Razor,

            McDonald is a superior athlete and potential weapon in the passing game. Celek is a borderline NFL player who can fill in when needed but offers little upside. I urge you to find some College film of McDonald and see why they drafted him in the first place.

            1. I’ve seen it, and I’m waiting for it to translate to the next level. Celek is just as good a blocker and he catches the ball well. We can hope VMac realizes his potential this year, but I’m not counting on it….

              1. Razor,

                26 targets in one and half seasons. How do you see anything translating if he doesn’t get the chance to show it? He was a second round pick for a reason and that reason is because he’s a mismatch with LB’s and S’s due to his size and athleticism. He lined up as a WR for Rice at times for goodness sake. As I said before, I understand the disappointment, but you also have to account for the reasons why a player doesn’t produce. As Scooter said, none of the TE’s did much last year and at least with McDonald we have potential and a guy who has turned himself into a pretty good blocker in a short period of time.

    5. If Harold and Lemonier can earn the coaches confidence then I think Brooks is a cut. His contract is not trade friendly and I have a hard time imagining a team giving up a pick and then picking up his nearly 10M dollar 2016 salary. Brooks would have to be willing to take a significant pay cut to stick with the team and that wont happen either. The only way I see Brooks on the team this year is if Lemonier can’t make it happen.

      Scooter you and I are sharing a brain and a lot of those roster decisions; Simpson to me is likely to be a cut that gets brought back in case of injury. The team appears committed to Looney and I agree they keep him over Silberman. I’m not so sure that Cook wont get his walking papers before Acker and I definitely think that if they play him on the strong side that Wheeler will earn his spot on the team.

      1. Regardless of what happens there should be some fun camp battles this year. And barring injury, there should be some fairly tough decisions to make getting to the 53. No doubt there will be some decisions that leave more than a few people scratching their head.

        Of course you can also say the same for pretty much every team! We’re talking about bottom of the roster guys here, and they’d likely be on the bubble for most teams.

    6. I can’t argue much with your choices here Grant. The only two I will say are questionable in my mind are Looney as an out and White as an in. I think Looney likely makes it as he can play all three interior positions, and White is likely out unless he completely blows up in the preseason. I think the WR group is likely set at 5 with: Boldin, Smith, Simpson, Patton and Ellington. If White makes it due to great preseason play, it will likely come down to him and either Simpson or Patton.

      As to the topic thread, Brock is no lock considering his injury history and if Wright is starting it’s not a good thing for us, so my hope is Brock is healthy and starting, along with one of the second year guys who earns it by playing very well in preseason.

    7. I agree with with much of the final 53. The question marks are Ellington and Vance mac. I think Dres anderson has a good shot at beating ellington for a roster spot. I see VD, carrier and Bell ahead of Vance Mac. Frankly, i like celek more than Vm, blocking notwithstanding. TE need to be able to block and catch. it is in the job description.

      The wild card is cap space. If Eli and Lemonair have a good preseason, brooks may be out the door. Our cap space is already at 10 mil , brooks departure would add 4-5 mil more . We have an opportunity to wheel and deal . our final roster may include some names we are not considering right now.

        1. Not a ton of production last year , in albeit limited action. Let’s see him battle Dres for a roster spot. Let the better WR win.

          1. Couldn’t the same be said of Patton? In fact even more so, as Ellington was active when Patton was not for much of the season.

            I also find it interesting that you mention Lemonier as a guy that could potentially push Brooks out the door if he has a good pre-season, but it could easily be argued he was even less impressive than Ellington last year. Yet you see Ellington as a guy that is in trouble and Lemonier as a potential break through player… strange.

            I’m not saying you are wrong, you could well be proven 100% correct, but I guess I don’t really understand why you think Ellington in particular is at great risk of not making the team. I agree he’s far from guaranteed a spot, but there would appear to be plenty of other guys in either the same boat or at more risk listed on Grant’s 53 that you don’t question.

            1. I mention Lemonier for salary cap considerations and Brooks exhibited poor sportsmanship and leadership last year. He showed up for camp overweight and threw a tantrum when Lynch started getting more snaps. I think it is conceivable that Aldon and lynch start with eli and CL backing them up.

              Yes, the same can be said about patton, but I have seen some isolated instances of brilliance from QP. When considering battles for the 4th/5th WR or 4th OLB there usually isn’t an enormous body of work to draw conclusions from. Let’s see how the training camp battles play out.

              1. Yeah, personally I agree Lemonier could well surprise a few people this year. Last season was pretty much a disaster for him, but I think he’ll be better for it.

                Regarding Ellington, he was just a rookie last year and had quite a few guys in front of him with plenty of experience that limited his opportunities. Similar to Patton. I don’t think we can draw any conclusions about him from last season, but there were some good things he did in limited action. And he should be better for having a full season and off-season under his belt (even if he has missed a lot of off-season practice time through injury). I guess that is why I thought it a little odd you singled him out, to me it seems a case of he’s become something of a forgotten man just because he didn’t see a lot of action last season and has been hurt so far in OTAs and mini-camp.

              2. Lemonier must learn to utilize his hands as weapons if he wants to prevent his stock from souring….

              3. I’d be very surprised if Lemonier makes the team. He looked completely incapable of playing at this level last year.

                Ellington is going nowhere imo. He’s their KR/PR most likely and started to show signs of improvement late in the year when he got more playing time.

                I also have no idea why some are rating Carrier so highly. He’s been a relative non factor, and has had injury issues during his time here, yet the same people are ready to dump McDonald who was far superior to any TE (except Davis) on the roster in College, and who hasn’t been given much of a chance to show what he can do in the passing game. He has 4 drops and that seems to be enough for some to part with a 2nd round pick who is athletically only behind Davis at the position. I just smh at what I read in here sometimes.

              4. Umm, vance mac has been the non factor with injuries. Carrier has great hands and has made tough catches in traffic. Vance had 2 receptions last year and lost 1 of those in a fumble. His drops have been an issue in both preseasons and have been a topic raised by Grant and barrows. Time to call him a bust and move on.

              5. Razor and rocket, if Lemonier plays the same way he did last season again he’s a goner for sure. But his rookie year he looked a lot better than that. Will the real Corey Lemonier please stand up?

                I think last year Lemonier may have felt some of the weight of expectation, focused too much on improving little things he forgot some of his fundamentals, and when it wasn’t working for him then lost a lot of his confidence. Not having much help in pass rush from anyone else on the field the first few games also hindered him. I don’t think we saw anywhere near the best Lemonier has to offer last season.

                I (somewhat) agree with your take on Vance McDonald, rocket. I think it is too early to give up on their second most physically gifted TE on the roster, especially given he’s now also their best blocking TE. Lets see how he goes with the new coaching staff – lets face it, none of the TEs did well with Mangini as their position coach.

              6. Rollotomasi,

                A year and half and he’s a bust even though he’s hardly been used in the passing game? Talk about a short sighted view. Carrier has missed as much or more time with injuries and isn’t as good a blocker yet you are ready to hand him the keys to the car. The drops are not good, but you also don’t account for the ability McDonald has to make plays that the others behind him don’t.

              7. Rocket 2 53 – Vance mac was drafted in 2013 in the second round. Compare his stats to those of his contemporary TEs Ertz, kelce etc. Luke wilson , who also attended Rice, was drafted by the seahawks in the 5 round in 2013. Yet, it is luke wilson who has made much more of an impact in the league. Vance mac has been ineffective as a receiver. I hope he has a good camp and preseason and turns things around, but we cant hang onto him if he doesn’t. There are better TE options waiting in the wings.

                As far as lemoir goes, I acknowledge he regressed last year. But the competition is really between Lynch and brooks. If lynch is the other starting OLB and Lemoir is a competent back up, brooks has to go. It is absurd to have 5 million in cap space sitting on the bench. It is precisely why Alex smith was traded to KC.

                Who knows , maybe baalke can swing a miracle and get a 5th rounder for brooks. Hopefully he wont do something stupid and draft a punter with the 5th round pick. Ooops, nevermind

              8. Brent Jones, who was one of my favorite 49ers of his era, did not “score 60, 50, 40, yard touchdowns consistently throughout his career.” In fact, he only had two receiving touchdowns of more than 40 yards (both 60+) and only seven of more than 20 yards (including playoffs). (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JoneBr00/touchdowns/)

                He was a good pass catching TE, but even if we take it at 20+ yard TDs instead of he 40+ yard TDs you referenced, seven over the course of an 11 year career hardly qualifies as something that was done “consistently”.

                I am curious, TomD – do you really believe the hyperbolic abilities you project on to Walsh/Seifert era 49ers, or do you just not care whether the data support your proclamations?

            2. Scooter,

              Lemonier has to show a lot more this preseason than he did last year if he’s going to have any chance at making this team, but you are correct in saying he looked like he had potential his rookie year. I hope he looks more like the first year version come August.

              As far as the TE’s, I just want to see somebody step up and show something so we can see if we have the replacement for Davis on the roster if he is in his last season here. It’s impossible to know what we have if they don’t get the others more involved.

              1. You and I clearly have similar views on McDonald and Carrier. The only thing I’ll say against McDonald is that he has been seeing the field. While I agree the QB hasn’t thrown him the ball often, at least some of that is on McDonald. If he was consistently getting open when asked to run a route he’d get thrown the ball more often.

              2. That’s fair. Either way it’s time to see it play out on the field instead of trying to speculate based on a small amount of information.

              3. I’ve seen TE, Brent Jones (who isn’t a blazer by far) score 60, 50, 40, yard touchdowns consistently throughout his career. In interviews with Bill Walsh, Steve Young, Jeff Garcia, all were heavily involved in the intellectual side of offensive football, and it was apparent to you and me because the Niners could score him on so called “Set up Plays.” How many times did Walsh march his team down and score on the first possession of Superbowls, Playoffs, NFC Championships…You have to grow up in this in environment. Baalke would not know a pass catching TE, he’s schooled in D-II Bemidgi College, and Conservative Bill Parcells run based offenses first, passing is secondary.

  12. The biggest cut surprises (for me) are TJE and McCray. Looney’s a milder surprise.

    I think TJE and Ramsey would have a job somewhere. The oft injured Ramsey is a gifted inside pass rusher.

    The biggest keep surprise is Dahl. I prefer McCray.

    I’m hoping Millard, Hayne, Busta Anderson and other younger favorites can be sneaked onto the practice squad.

    Maybe Baalke can engineer some trades to make roster space. Of course there are the inevitable guys that go on IR too.

    1. Brodie,
      I think the Niners made enough sacrifices to the IR gods last season and they”ll get a free IR pass this season. Right?

      1. Totally agree. The football gods owe the 49ers bigtime on the injury front.

        I was thinking about the “good” kind of injury list. A player gets a minor ding in camp. That frees a roster space. The player can be activated later in the year.

        As much as I’d like to see Dockett right away, I wouldn’t cry if he started on IR.

        Kaleb Ramsey might never play a full season without getting hurt, but he would make a great “closer” as an inside pass rush specialist later in the year.

    2. DeAndrew White and Kaleb Ramsey are talented but oft injured players. I’m assuming they will keep White and jettison Ramsey. The 49ers will want to be sure White can stay in one piece.

      1. I never understood why someone would expect a player to stay on the field in the NFL, when they struggled to do it in college….

        1. The careers of players like Frank Gore, Adrian Peterson and Terrell Davis are good advertisements for not being completely put off by guys that have injury riddled college careers.

        2. There are so many different injury variables. Sometimes its hard for me to tell what “injury prone” means.

          Knee 1 – Missed 12 games in a row with an injured knee after taking a nasty hit at a really bad angle. The healthiest knee would have gave way on on that play. Had successful surgery, and got back onto the field the next season.

          Knee 2 – Multiple knee injury absences totaling 12 games. He was sometimes ready to play, often not. These injuries were caused my the normal stresses related to executing plays… not big hits at an awkward angle. Not bad technique.

          Both are labeled “injury prone.”

          My red flags are ongoing foot issues, history of concussions, ongoing knee problems, mentally disengages from a team during rehab.

          I more forgiving of uncomplicated fractures and injury issues caused by correctable bad technique and training regimen. Huge plus if they rehabbed themselves back onto the field and play hard despite a diminished role.

  13. T. Brock one of the starting corners?? Maybe to start camp by default, but it would not be prudent to assume we will be the opening day starter. He has been hurt and there is some young talent out there we need to give every opportunity during camp to unseat any presumptuous starter.

    1. Okoye has one season IR, one on the PS. Is he still eligible for the PS?
      He may decide to go back to the UK instead of sticking it out another season.

      Think Busta Anderson is a PS candidate?

      If Millard looks good in preseason, I can see some running teams go after him during 24 hr waivers. Washington, Buffalo, Seattle, Carolina.

  14. ESPN did their annual state of the union rankings of NFL teams, including: Roster, QB, Draft, Front Office and Coaching. They fell from #3 a year ago to #22 this year with the biggest drop coming in the Coaching ranking. The only ranking that remained close from a year ago? QB.

    Can’t post the whole thing, but here is the overview:

    The overview: In what was an offseason full of upheaval in San Francisco, the 49ers dropped 19 spots from their 2014 standing in these future rankings, by far the largest decline. Last year, they ranked among the top five in drafting, non-QB roster, coaching and the front office. And this year, no team fell as many spots in its rankings for front office (fourth to 20th) or coaching (third to 32nd). The 49ers also dropped from second to 18th in non-QB roster, a fall surpassed only by the Saints. San Francisco’s lone steady category: quarterback, which slipped just one spot to 17th. It is unlikely all the changes will work out in the negative so resoundingly, but at best, the unknowns cloud the future. –Mike Sando

    1. Here’s a comparison to a year ago:
      Overall: 85.4
      Roster: 85.8
      QB: 77.5
      Draft: 84
      Front Office: 88.6
      Coaching: 93

      This year
      Overall: 66.3
      Roster: 69.3
      QB: 64.3
      Draft: 72
      Front Office: 70.3
      Coaching: 56.3

      Not really surprising at all. The team has gone through a lot of changes and most don’t like or agree with anything they’ve done to date. At this point the only thing that will change people’s minds is if the team wins games.

      But at the same time, it seems to me (and I’ve said this before) that all they’ve done is taken a bunch of unknowns and turned them into predetermined negatives. For example, how can you really know how far a drop off the coaching is when you don’t know what you’re comparing to? We saw what the previous staff was able to do, but we haven’t seen the current one in action yet. But they know enough to give it a grade of 32? And why the drop off in front office? Isn’t it basically the same as it was a year ago?

      1. There is some truth to the predetermined negative angle Niner gang, but it’s also about comparing the Niners to the other teams in the league. When doing that, the inexperience of the HC combined with the less than stellar resumes of the coordinators, doesn’t give the commentators any incentive to rank them higher.

        I agree with you regarding the Front office, in fact I think they are better now that Tom Gamble was brought back.

        Overall roster is to be determined. They lost a lot of proven talent and leadership, and now it’s up to the players who sat behind them to step up and take the next step in their development.

        1. That’s exactly right Rocket. At this point we need the games to start before we can realistically pass judgement. I’m an optimist when talking Niners but this could go better then expected or as bad as others are predicting. Kaepernick has a lot to say about this team going forward. We will find out shortly if he is truly an Elite QB or just an athlete. A lot of young talent on this team. Who will rise.

        2. I see your point. People generally don’t feel great about Tomsula, Chrsyt, or Mangini, which is reflected in the rankings. I just think it’s hard to give an accurate grade or prediction either way. Sure, they could probably go off of track record for these guys, but that’s even a little difficult because the sample size is so small.

          I agree with you about the roster. As you said a lot of it is TBD and we won’t know what we have (in certain areas) until the games start. The good news is they’re starting to get younger overall, which to me is more sustainable long term. Now, some of the youth movement is by default but I feel like they were starting to get a little long in the tooth.

    2. (E)ast coast (S)ports (P)imping (N)etwork

      I went to a LeBron-Fest and an NBA Championship broke out. (What was the name of that team that played against LeBron?).

      To be fair, I like Sando who I think has a west coast background, and I haven’t had the chance to see the article because I’m not an insider. I can’t be surprised people are predicting a downturn with all the big departures.

      But I get the feeling alot of “national” (eastern) press don’t even examine the exiting roster before passing judgement.

      NFL network is another offender with its 24/7 Tebow-Gaga-Manziel-Beiber mania.

      1. There’s no need to read the article it’s all just perception based, which means it’s subjective and arbitrary. They ranked the 49ers behind the Jets and the Rams. And somehow the Lions are ranked 12th.

        Sando BTW is from Tacoma, Washington I believe, and he used to have a better feel for the 49ers when he was consistently covering them and didn’t have league wide responsibilities.

        1. I hope we’re not relegated two tiers below the Jets vs. Browns via ESPN or other networks…Sure would be a downer to have to watch those teams on prime time more than the 49ers?

      2. I recall Mike Sando once mentioning that he grew up as a Raiders fan.
        I agree that he did a pretty good job of covering the NFCW.
        He tends to be objective and balanced. Far better, IMO, than John Clayton or Peter King.

    3. The drop in front office ranking is based on what they did between Jan 2014 and now.They are getting full credit for the leak campaign that started after the NFC Championship game.

      It’s easy to understand why Sando wouldn’t give the coaching staff any credit before they have coached a meaningful game. Maybe the next preseason ranking will be able to upgrade them. I sure hope so.

      Talent and coaching sometimes is so intertwined that we’ll just have to hope that their ranking is improved by this time next year.

      Over their history, the 49ers have been in this fix many times. Because he had better talent, Harbaugh’s turn around was the fastest that I remember. More often than not, things get worse before they get better under improved leadership. Let’s hope we have improved leadership.


    4. Rocket,

      I see that you agree that the FO isn’t worse at all this year. So, given how severely flawed a major part of ESPN’s “analysis” is, can you understand how someone might see it as a knee jerk, short sighted, hatchet job?

      Seriously, though, it’s absolute nonsense that there are 21 teams in the NFL better than the 49ers. Barring a cataclysm, mediocre is the absolute worst they can be next season. 22nd is horrible and that is just not on the menu for this team.

      1. ex,

        Yes I agree some of the analysis done on the Niners is short sighted and features little research. I have focused on the FA/retirement losses and the guys at the top of the Coaching hierarchy as potential issues, but I like the front office overall.

        I also agree that rating them 22nd in the league is too low. They’ll be middle of the pack imo.

        1. Rocket,

          Good to hear.

          Furthermore, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, ……. multi paragraph post that has been regurgitated numerous times with slightly different phrasing in different sequences and combinations, but with few (if any) new points……. blah, blah, blah, blah.

          In addition, blah, blah, blah.

          There, that should completely change your mind about the 49ers chances next season.

    1. If it’s realistic to expect that both Bell and Busta make the team then who’s getting cut? Obviously it’s not Davis. Assuming that you can write off Cleveland and Grimble who makes it out of Celek, McDonald and Carrier?

    2. I agree with your reasonable expectations for Harold but I still have a hard time seeing a team trade a pick for Brooks, if it did happen it would have to be a 7th at best or I guess a desperate team with gobs of cap space might give up a 6th.

      1. From a salary cap perspective it is worth keeping in mind the signing bonus (and restructure bonus) portions of Brooks’ salary cap hit would still count against the 49ers if they traded him, not the team they traded him too. I believe the workout bonus has also already been achieved and would also be the 49ers responsibility against the cap.

        So any team trading for him would only be on the hook for his salary and roster bonus, around $4.6 million. Not chump change, but maybe not as prohibitive as you’d initially think.

        1. I thought that number was closer to the $6m range however the other part would be is the amount of dead money to the 49ers enough that it makes more sense to keep him around as depth rather then eat all that money and get nothing for it.

          1. Yeah, my understanding is if they cut or trade him he counts for around $2.3 million in dead money this season, and around $3.2 million next season. As opposed to his current salary cap figure of around $7 million this year if they keep him.

            But that is just my understanding of it, which may be faulty!

            1. One thing that I forgot to mention in the discussion of Brooks’s tradability is his 2016 contract. He is scheduled to make 9 million dollars next year even with a banner season it’s hard to justify paying him that much. whatever team trades for him also will probably have to get a surance from his agent that he’ll be willing to rework that number otherwise I doubt many will consider him.

              1. I think most teams would see it as a one year rental. Since the team trading for him does not have to worry about the signing and restructure bonuses carrying over as dead money, they can cut Brooks after one season with no salary cap ramifications.

              2. the situation really says that if we are able to trade him it will be a 7 or 6 rounder tops no one would trade more for a one year rental.

              3. Yeah, agreed, highly unlikely they’d get more than a late round pick for Brooks at this point in time.

              4. The 49ers best chance for getting higher than a late round pick in return for Brooks would be for a 3-4 team that is already a bit thread bare at OLB (such as the Jags after losing Fowler for the year) to have another serious injury (or two) at the position in TC, and be desperate for help. Then the 49ers may be able to wrangle a mid round pick, or perhaps a couple of late round picks. They could potentially even put some conditional factors in based on production to increase the compensation if he plays well.

                The closer it gets to the end of pre-season, the lower his value will likely become if guys like Lemonier and Harold are performing well and make him expendable.

              5. Scooter,

                I realize that you’re coming up with scenarios that you probably don’t think are likely anyway, but wouldn’t you think a team trading more than a late round pick for Brooks would not only have to be desperate (as you noted), but also be expecting to contend for a playoff spot (or at least feel pressure to give that appearance)?

              6. Yes I do, but at this point in the season I reckon there are 32 teams that believe they have a realistic shot at making the play-offs. Even the Jags.

    3. Grants Realistic Expectations are in line with my own, except for a few surprises.

      – Bell taking the #2 job. I wouldn’t call it “unrealistic” but I still think 49er management likes VMac.

      – I don’t think its worth it to play Smelter a few token games because it makes him FA instead of RFA for 2019. The 49ers play Smelter the final few games only if they think he can help significantly during a playoff run.

      – Silberman beating out Looney for a roster spot. I didn’t see that coming, but maybe I should have.

      – Busta Anderson also a mild surprise, but he shouldn’t be either. The 49ers have desperately needed an above the pads red zone passing game. So far they haven’t gotten it with McDonald. Bell and Anderson might be just the thing.

  15. My solution to the problem of cutting down to 53 players- Make a blockbuster trade with Oakland. Trade Miller, Brooks, White,Celek or Carrier, Wright or Cook for a conditional draft choice or choices. If Oakland has a winning season, the Niners get a first round pick. If they make the playoffs, the Niners get a first and second. If they win it all, the Niners get 2 first round picks in the next 2 drafts. If the team still sucks, the Niners get a second round pick.
    Miller is a huge upgrade. Brooks will start. White can team up with Cooper again. Celek or Carrier will seriously compete at TE. Wright or Cook could add some veteran DB experience.
    Niners will gain by getting a high second round pick and allow players on the bubble to be used to better the team in the future instead of losing them due to the 53 man cut down. Miller is expendable because Millard may be better. Brooks cussed out his HC. The TE position and DB position is crowded. White has high potential and would be a good fit with Cooper. It would be a win-win for both teams.
    Niners could then use the space created to poach a couple players from teams they will play next season.Oakland will vastly improve their roster with at least 3 starters.
    This is just my 2 cents, and different players could be used and different compensation could be figured out. Just idle conjecture during the long off season. If Oakland does not agree, Jacksonville or Tennessee might jump at the chance.

    1. I like the enthusiasm and creativity, but sounds like the sort of trade Oakland (or any team) would only accept in Madden…

      1. I think Baalke could pull it off. He does like to accrue future picks.
        Miller may not fit with the new Niner offense, and the FB position needs someone with Roger Craig like skills. Miller is a great blocker, but he does not run with the ball often, and has rarely caught the ball. Brooks is expendable with Eli Harold taking his spot, and he could save cap space, by being traded. White was an undrafted FA, so getting something for him is a bonus. The TE and DB positions have good depth, so losing one player will not hurt, and Oakland needs to upgrade those positions.

        1. Let’s see now. Baalke likes to accumulate future draft picks. True.

          To max out your trade idea, in terms of future picks, the Raiders would have to win the Superbowl and Baalke would be labeled as the GM who topped the wrong side of the Herschel Walker trade.

          Ya, Baalke would like that.

          1. … and the two first round picks would be 32nd one year and possibly in the same are the next year. Baalke would be roasted.

        2. A couple of things:

          – Why does Miller no longer suit this offense? What has changed? Why does the “new” 49ers offense need a Roger Craig like FB? And how do you know this? And realistically, what would any team be willing to give up for a FB? Not a lot I’d imagine.
          – Why would the 49ers look to trade Shareece Wright just a few months after signing him on a pretty high priced contract? Especially when they haven’t added any other CBs since. And who else would be willing to take on his salary? Surely if they liked Wright that much they would have just signed him themselves during FA.
          – Outside of Brooks and Miller, how realistic is it to expect to receive a draft pick in compensation? Celek and Carrier have done nothing in the NFL, Cook is a minimum salary vet, and White is an UDFA that has “impressed” a few beat writers in shorts. At best you might get a 7th rounder for one or two of these guys if they have a really good pre-season. Would the Raiders (or any team) see these guys as definite upgrades over what they already have? Hard to say without seeing how they go in pre-season, but lets face it, if they excel in pre-season they will probably stick on the 49ers roster. Better for teams to just wait for roster cuts and get them or whoever else the 49ers cut then.
          – Brooks likely has the highest trade value of the lot. But again, what would any team realistically be willing to give up for a high salaried player in his 30s that started to lose playing time last season and is now considered expendable?

          As I said, I like the enthusiasm, but I see your trade scenario as completely unrealistic. I appreciate you did say other players/ compensation could be worked out, and with that I agree – the 49ers could look to trade a player or two during roster cuts. But I think you are considerably over cooking the level of compensation Baalke could potentially negotiate.

          1. Baalke isn’t the only GM who loves having draft picks. He might love them more than some, but…

          2. Miller does not have the same skillsets that Roger Craig did. RC ran for 1000 yards and had 100 yards receiving one year. Miller could only dream of doing that, and he was never asked to do it. However, he is one of the best FB blockers in the NFL and would immensely help any teams’ running game. Instead of having Millard out compete him, then the Niners cut him and get nothing for him, it would behoove them to get something while his value is high.
            Brooks is a pass rusher who can also stop the run and does cover well, so any team would consider him an asset. He does have value, even if he is 30, and the Niners would save money so they could sign Aldon to a long term contract.
            The other players would help upgrade the Raiders, Jags or Titans, because frankly, they suck and their record proves it. I would not postulate this scenario for a play off team. However, a 5 for 1 deal that could improve a team should not be dismissed outright. If the Niners were not so deep with talent, I would never advocate this trade, but SOMEONE will be cut, and it is better to get something, instead of losing out to another team.
            I also said they should be conditional. If they help the other teams improve and maybe even get to the playoffs, I think that deal would be very enticing.
            Niners would also create space for poaching Seattle rejects so the Niners could pick their brains and prevent the Seahawks from stashing them on their PS. Addition thru subtraction.

              1. If the 49ers had a running back of Roger Craig’s stature, I would sure hope they wouldn’t play him at fullback. Roger had his best years at running back three of his last four years with the 49ers. The guy playing fullback wasn’t bad either.

            1. No, Miller does not have the same skill set as Craig. But you didn’t answer my question as to why the FB on this team all of a sudden needs to be a Roger Craig clone. What has changed? And why is Millard all of a sudden a better player than Miller, and going to make him expendable?

              And yes, Brooks would have value for pretty much any team. But not the kind of value you appear to be attaching to him. If he had that kind of value a team would already have traded for him. And as CfC has already indicated, not many teams would want to take on his salary long term. He would most likely be a 1-year rental.

              The other players you believe would help teams like the Raiders, Jags, etc are bottom of the roster guys in a real battle to make the 53. Many will likely be cut. The best the 49ers should hope for is these guys play well during pre-season and some team thinks it is worth investing a 7th rounder in grabbing one or two of them, similar to what happened with Cam Johnson. But its worth noting the Colts didn’t make that trade until after the 53 man roster cut down and the 49ers initially kept him around. The Colts were happy to wait and see if the 49ers cut him first.

              And yes, I realise you said it was conditional, but even at its worst outcome you were suggesting a 2nd rounder, with the potential to go up to first rounder if the team makes 8-8, and higher if they make the playoffs, etc. That’s a Madden level dream trade scenario, where you add a lot of players to a trade you no longer want or need and get a high round draft pick (or picks) in return. Why would any team give up that sort of bounty for players they know the other team no longer wants or needs, many of which would likely be cut and they could get for free anyway?

              But anyway, you appear to disagree and believe this to be a win-win scenario for everyone involved. Shocking that we never see any such block-buster trades happen at the end of pre-season, ever.

    2. I’m waiting for the injury situation to shake out before there are any trades. We would lose two OLBs in a heartbeat. Remember Cam Johnson and Darius Fleming in 2012?

    3. sebnynah,

      We all have fantasies of trading away spare parts for high draft picks and that’s all it is, fantasy. Nobody is going to give away valuable draft picks for a group of players that doesn’t feature an elite one.

      1. I’m not getting the “if [player name] stinks this year, trade him for high picks” scenarios.

        The more a player clearly stinks, the lower the trade value.

        Teams have made bad trades in the past (usually for “promising” 2nd string QBs) but if a player clearly isn’t cutting it on the field, they won’t fetch much on the trade market.

        Or “trade [bubble player name] for a 3rd rounder…”

        Why would a team give up a high pick for a player that might be a free agent in August?

        Or “trade [player with only a year on his contract and huge salary] for a first rounder.”

        Al Davis is no longer with us.

        1. Actually, I think many of the players I presented as trade bait do not stink. They all have value. I would not want to hoodwink the other team and make it a one sided deal. I consider it a win-win situation for both sides.
          I considered the Raiders because they need a FB, pass rusher, WR TE and DB. I honestly believe that at least 3 players could start. White could team up with Cooper again, and that tandem at Bama did pretty well.
          Davis is gone, but Mark should be able to see the promising potential in upgrading his team with Niner players because Al did it many many times.

          1. I like all the players you presented in your trade scenario… especially Miller, Brooks and White.

            My comments were about trade scenarios in general that I’m reading all over the place. I should have posted in general comments.

            The Raiders are a good trade partner because of all the cap space and roster needs. Brooks comes to mind, but do they run a 3-4? Before Davis retired I was thinking Boone to the Raiders.

            The Raiders could use White, but I want to keep him. It would have to be a pretty nice draft pick. The 49ers seem to have lucked out getting him RFA.

            If the 49ers really like Busta Anderson, I can see then shopping Celek or Carrier since they’d have to cut one of both. I don’t think they’d get much. Its like the Haralson trade… he’s worth more than the draft pick the 49ers got, but he was going to be released anyway. (He might have asked to be traded/released to get more playing time. I can’t remember).

            I think Buffalo, Washington, Seattle and Carolina would love Miller… but the 49ers love him too. Millard would have to have a great camp and the offer would have to be really good. I think Miller only has one year on his contract.

            1. With White, its worth keeping in mind if the Raiders really wanted him they could have just drafted him in the first place. Would only have cost a 7th rounder. But they didn’t value him that highly. Neither did any team, not even the 49ers. We are now talking about potentially trading an UDFA for a draft pick after he looked pretty good in shorts. I think that is a serious case of over valuing a player’s current worth.

              If he has a great camp and pre-season, then we might start thinking about whether a team could potentially want to give up something for him, but it wouldn’t be much. And lets face it, if he does have a great camp and pre-season, why would the 49ers want to give him up?

              1. Because the Niners are loaded with WRs. I think Patton and Ellington will shine, and Smelter and Dres Anderson have tons of potential. White will have a hard time supplanting AB, Smith and Simpson, so the Niners should trade him while his stock is sky high. I bet Cooper would lobby for this trade.

              2. “The Niners should trade him while his stock is sky high”.

                Only in your world is White’s stock sky high. Do you honestly think there are any of the other 31 teams slapping their foreheads about what a mistake they made not drafting him after he impressed some beat writers during OTAs and mini-camp? Come back to reality.

        1. Always fun to kick around trade ideas. The reason you’re getting pushback is you’re miles away from what those players are worth. You say that 5 players makes it a good deal vs. 1 (though you actually have a scenario where they get 2 1st rounders). 5 for 1 is too simple of a way to look at it.

          Think about a typical draft table. The 15th player in the 1st round is valued at 1050 points. The 15th player in the 5th round is worth 34.5 points. That’s 30 players for 1.

          I could go thru why all the players you mentioned aren’t worth much draft capital because they’re either unproven, on 1 year deals, or have a huge salary, but consider something more fundamental. The collective bargaining agreement is set up such that rookies don’t get paid that much, but veteran minimum salaries escalate. What that means is that not only do you find athletic talent in the draft, you get it at a low price.

          1. Eddie. I bet any team would be extremely happy to trade away 2 first round draft picks if the result is a SB victory. My original proposal is 5 players for a 2nd round pick. The better the pick, the better the improvements on the other team.

      2. Rocket, since the Jags lost their first round pick due to injury, they really need a pass rusher. I would consider adding Tony Jerrod Eddie in the mix to sweeten that deal.

        1. Yeah, TJE would definitely take that deal over the top for the Jags. Just the type of pass rusher they’ve been clamouring for. SMH….

            1. Well, since you are questioning my proposal, do you have a better one, or can you think of some way to improve the Niners? I am postulating trade scenarios during a slow time in the off season, but obviously think that my proposal is too far fetched to consider. Your opinion. I like mine better.

              1. Don’t let these guys slow your roll sebnynah. This trade scenario could totally work. Matter of fact, my kids just pulled it off on Madden.

              2. Yeah, Jack, but weren’t your kids running the front offices on both ends of the deal? That might be hard to pull off in real life, probably.

            2. Since you diss my credibility, I will post my bonafides. I predicted this last Super Bowl would be won by the team who cheated the most and came within 5 points of predicting the score.
              I also wrote this on 1-17-14 on the sfblog site as Nynah.
              !0 things Kaep should do on Sunday.
              1. Run the no huddle with quick snaps to negate the crowd noise.
              2. Always put a man in motion, and read the defenses’ reaction.
              3. Fake a handoff or pitch and roll out the other way to befuddle the defense.
              4. Invite the blitz and roll away from the blitz or complete a quick pass
              5. Take advantage of the defenses’ speed by doing counters, misdirections and reverses.
              7.Consider time outs to be precious, and saved for the last 2 minutes (of each half).
              8. Shake hands, win or lose. Read IF by Rudyard Kipling.
              9. After the game, go to the Niner fans in the stands and give autographed hats.
              10. Get the ball in Frank Gores’ hands as much as possible.
              Look it up. Its in their archives.
              I take a back seat to no one. Post some of your scintillating prose to dazzle me.

          1. Brooks is a legit pass rusher and would improve that team since they lost their FIRST ROUND PICK.
            TJE would be a 6th player, and he did play well for the Niners, so I think they would consider him an upgrade on a 2-14 team.

            1. The question isn’t whether he is an upgrade, it’s if he’s worth a high draft pick on his current contract, and the answer is unquestionably no.

              Zac Stacy was traded from the Rams to the Jets. In 2013 he had just under 1000 yards rushing, and 7 TDs. He’s no pro bowler, but a legit player. The Rams got a 7th rounder for him.

              Percy Harvin was traded for a 5th rounder. Yeah, he’s clashes with the organization he’s played for, but so has Brooks.

            2. Yeah, Brooks is still a solid NFL starter. He would no doubt improve a team like the Jags. But that doesn’t mean they are about to spend a 2nd rounder on him. Not for a guy in his 30s, that is coming off a down year, and is on a big salary.

              Adding a bunch of other bumph to the trade is only enticing to you. Why would the Jags be keen for a new FB on a team that rarely uses one? Or a selection of cast off TEs when they already have a bunch of goods ones? Or an UDFA WR they could have drafted if they liked him and already have a bunch of other good looking young WRs? Or a backup DL that is on the bubble for the 49ers when they already have decent DL depth?

              The Jags would not be keen to add much of any value to their compensation for a bunch of cast-offs they don’t even need. You are massively over-valuing the 49ers bubble players.

              You mention Oakland as a possible trade partner too. But why would they want Brooks? They have some good LBs already in Mack, Moore and Smith. And they play a 4-3. And why would they want Miller? Marcel Reese is a good enough FB, why trade for a replacement that is really just a blocking specialist? And as with every other team, if they really wanted DeAndrew White, all they needed to do was draft him a couple of months ago.

              1. Marcel Reese may be alright, but Miller has played in many playoff games and is considered to be one of the best in the league. MR played on a 3-13 team and did not help them win too many games.
                LBs? The Oakland defense was porous, to put it kindly. Also, the 4-3 resulted in a 3-13 season. Maybe it would be good to consider a change.

              2. Marcel Reese isn’t the problem with the Raiders offense. A big reason that team struggled last year on offense is it had a rookie QB and no WRs. Carr will get better as he gets more experience, and adding what looks like a legit WR in Cooper, a decent possession WR in Crabtree, and a decent looking TE in Clive Walford will help. I’m sure the Raiders would be happy to have Miller, but not so much they’d be willing to give up much for him. And its strange to think you recognise Miller is one of the best FBs in the NFL yet you think the 49ers should get rid of him, based on an as yet to be explained rationale of the 49ers needing a Roger Craig like FB, and that last year’s 7th round pick will beat him out.

                Before you start dismissing the Raiders LBs I suggest you take a look at them. Khalil Mack was one of the best rookies last year, and Sio Moore is a 3rd year player that has been impressive his first two years. They’ve now added Malcolm Smith from the Seahawks and Curtis Lofton from the Saints during the off-season. This is a mostly young, talented and improving group, that has added some good experience through FA. The DL and CBs are the weakness on D for the Raiders.

              3. I wrote this with the 53 player in mind, but did not specify that the trade would occur during cut downs. Actually, I hope something like this would happen before training camp.
                The NBA just had a 3 player trade, so big trades do happen. The 5 out of 90 is just 6.6 % of the team.
                Injuries do happen, but they cannot be the over riding factor in any major decision, or nothing would get done for fear of injury.
                I cannot stress the importance of having room to acquire cut down players enough. Poaching a player from Seattle would follow their modus operandi like they did with Lockette, Tukuafu, Dobbs, BJ, and Michael Robinson. Baalke is shrewd enough to look at all the teams and could find a gem in the rough, so a roster spot to stash him on is needed. If the team is filled, there is no room. Trading away 5 players for future considerations while creating space is not a far fetched fantasmagorical delusion. To me, it is common sense, because waiting until the cut down day will just make the other teams wait and get them free with no compensation. This way, Niners will let the rest compete, but the first string will get more reps together so the team can gel and get in sync.

        2. It doesn’t matter how many players you add; nobody is trading a first round pick for a group of cast offs. Look at the history in this area and see how many deals are made like the one you are proposing.

          1. Actually, it would be a 5 player trade for a second round pick. If the team improves to have a non losing season, I think they would jump for joy considering they won less than 4 games last year, and they would be glad to upgrade that pick to a first rounder. Instead of getting a high first round pick with another Gawdawful team, an 8-8 team would pick around 16, so it would not be terrible for them since their team would no longer be a cellar dweller.

            1. However, what happens if they make your “5 for 1″ trade and nothing much changes. The Oakland FO will look foolish for giving up a 2nd rounder for players that they most likely could have had after the 49ers were forced to at least cut some of them. And for this last reason mostly, it’s too risky for the Oakland FO.

              1. Consider this. Getting those players ahead of TC would allow them to assimilate into the system instead of waiting until the last moment to throw them into a system with little preparation. Maybe they should take a page out of the Niner playbook and fit the system to the players. Their old system did not work out that well.
                If Oakland does nothing, I think Oakland will double their wins, but still be a sub 500 team. This would be like getting a second draft, and they have the cap space to do it.

              2. Your original statement suggested the 49ers should make this move when getting down to the 53, so I assumed you meant after pre-season. If you mean they should do it now I not only think it is unrealistic to think another team would take the deal, but I also think it would be stupid on the 49ers behalf. You never know who might get hurt during TC and pre-season, or who will stand out and win a job.

                Lets look at Brooks as an example. Lemonier and Harold are still very much unknowns – one failed to impress when given an opportunity last year and the other has never played a down in the NFL. What happens if both guys look rubbish in TC and pre-season? The 49ers might yet need Brooks as the rotational OLB/DE and first guy off the bench in case of injury. There is also a very good chance he just outright wins the starting LOLB job. Trading him right now wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world, but it does open the team up to a lot more risk that they really just don’t need to do right now.

                At FB, how stupid would they look if they traded Miller only to find out that Millard isn’t fully recovered from his leg injury, or that he just flat out stinks?

                Why trade Cook right now when there are so many question marks over what the best CB combination is, with a lot of young and unproven guys?

                You get the idea.

              3. G’day Scooter-
                With all sincere respect, I think you may be trying too hard with this guy and his pixilated, fantastigorical Mega-trade scenario. Don’t follow him down the rabbit hole into Wonderland.

    1. Prime,

      Our friends’ daughter was scolded today in Whistler, BC at a Canada Day parade for wearing a USA jacket (both families are here for the Women’s World Cup). While almost everyone has been very friendly, we were left wondering if a twelve year old wearing her country’s gear, when the girl’s country is still in a WC hosted by Canada, is seen as a faux pas up here by most (it most clearly was by the lady dishing out the scolding, that was for sure). Speaking for myself, I wouldn’t think anything of a person wearing a Maple Leaf hat at a fourth of July parade, World Cup or not. Any thoughts?

      1. Mr. O, I wouldn’t get worked up over it. Just one person complaining, and even if there are more like that, they’re probably in the minority.

        1. George,

          I realize it was just one person. I’m just curious that if wearing gear of another country on Canada Day is seen as rude by most here or not. That one lady may have been out of line in her reaction, but if wearing another country’s gear is seen as rude in this country, then it’s rude. Next time I’ll know better, if so.

          1. You have to realize that Canada was eliminated while the USA is playing in Canada for the World Cup. It is obviously not only a sign of jealousy, but also venting frustrations.
            Also, one bad apple does not spoil the whole bunch. I think Canadians are only slightly less friendly than Australians.

  16. General trade thoughts….

    – Positions of excess depth might not look so deep in mid August.

    – Summer OTAs and minicamps are merely indicators because of the lack of hitting, pads and ideal weather. Glowing practice reports tend to favor lighter, quicker players at skill positions.

    – Teams know the 49ers might be in a roster math bind. They won’t overpay if they think a player might be cut.

    – Keep in mind the salary cap, needs, scheme, division, management and bargaining position of potential trade partners.

    – Players with only a year on their contracts, or have a big contract price, or have been clamoring to hold out… will be less attractive to trade partners.

    – If you want to trade a player because you don’t like him, potential trade partners probably won’t like him for the same reason… and will offer little or nothing.

    – The most mutually beneficial trades usually involve good players that become a poor fit because of a change in scheme or culture.

    – Teams will offer as low as they can get away with in a trade. Always.

    1. I purposefully chose veterans and kept the younger players because Baalke is not stupid, and he would only go for deal that benefits the Niners. Oakland would gain, too so any deal should be fair to both sides. Eliminating future FAs would help the salary cap. That is why I chose Wright or Cook instead of Reaser. Brooks would be a salary cap casualty, and Miller has the legal trouble and does not fit in Jed Yorks definition of class. Those battle hardened veterans are not cast offs, but trading them away would allow the younger players to fill their spots on the roster. Teams may try to lowball, but generally, you get what you pay for.
      I included White because the Niners need room for their veterans, and Smelter is waiting in the wings. White has great value right now, and he showed great skills in the OTAs. Just because every team in the NFL passed on him, but the Niners were fortunate to land him, does not make his value less. Too bad every other team did not recognize his talent. Cooper also dropped balls, so White was better than Cooper.

  17. NFL.com seems to believe that the NFL QB with the best legs is Russell Wilson. I might not be Colin’s #1 fan(mostly cause he plays like #2) but I’d still take Kaep’s lower body over the oompa loompa’s 10/10 times.

    1. In the open field, yeah. But you’re comparing one of the most elusive QBs ever to a QB that led the league in sacks.

        1. Name 4 in the history of the NFL that were more elusive? I’ll give you one to start, Vick in his prime.

          Elway, nope. McNabb, nope. Young, nope.

            1. Certainly Tarkenton should be in the conversation. He was a phenomenal QB. But, he was good for 15 yards per game rushing throughout his career. His career was exceptionally long, which makes this comparison a little unfair, but it’s a starting place. Russell Wilson is averaging ~40/game.

              Yeah, rushing yards aren’t the same as elusiveness, but it’s a decent proxy. And as anyone knows who watches RW, he eludes the rush still looking to throw. So his elusiveness results in throwing stats, not just rushing.

              I’m not claiming RW is THE best ever as it’s too early to do that, but when you compare him with the greats, he’s on a pretty amazing trajectory.

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