On Wednesday, ESPN.com’s Mike Sando wrote a blog theorizing the 49ers could switch from a 3-4 defense to a 4-3 defense at some point in the distant future. With all due respect to Sando, the 49ers’ defense already is a 4-3 defense. They just use 3-4 personnel.
First of all, the 49ers use a classic four-man defensive line more than 65 percent of the time, in their sub packages. On base downs, the 49ers use a nose tackle, but that does not mean they use a 3-4. In a 3-4, the nose tackle lines up directly over the center in a zero-technique position, and the ends line up on the outside shoulder of the offensive tackles in a five-technique position – creating three “bubbles” at the line of scrimmage. The 49ers don’t do this.
The 49ers base defense is a 4-3 Under, a variation of a four-man line. The defensive ends are not five-techniques. The ends are reduced, or “eagled down,” over the outside eye of the guards to three-techniques, and the outside linebacker – Aldon Smith – essentially is a stand-up defensive end.
The nose tackle is a one gap player. He lines up between the center and guard in one-technique position. The strong safety usually plays the eighth-man-in-the-box concept, even from depth, just so nobody along the front has to be a two-gap defender.
Glenn Dorsey, the 49ers’ newest defensive tackle, played five-technique for the Chiefs and was not successful, but the 49ers will not ask him to play five-technique. They’re going to ask him to play three-technique or one-technique, classic 4-3 positions, the positions he played in college.
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Grant
I was readying myself to read you parroting Sando, but instead you have him a righteous “Up Yours!” Good going!
I agree. Way to out-Sando Sando!
Although I like this signing for the short years and money, Dorsey is the prime example of taking DLineman in the top 10 that doesnt pan out. He was a “cant miss” prospect who was the first Dl off the board. Yet the following year the chiefs took another LSU DL guy in T Jackson #3 and he has been a bust as well. Throw in T. Alualu for Jax and u see a trend that its a 50/50 split as to who works out (dareus, c,long, mccoy) and who doesnt. I say this to everyone who wants to trade 3 picks to get in to the top of the draft and take Star or SFloyd. While theyre billed as “at worst u get a 10 yr quality player” types the above mentioned players show that its just as dicey pickin top 10 as any other pick in the 1st RD.
If there are any other DL “Busts” that were top picks id love for the 9ers to take a look at cheap look at them because the reason for those players having failed could be scheme or lack of work ethic (which getting cut and signed for penuts should reawaken in players who could use it as a chip on their shoulder to fuel a turnaround)
Haloti Ngata was a top pick too though, so your comment is a bit on the weak side.
strongly agree- over time, even number one picks are at best a 50-50 shot. But the odds are slightly better with ones vs twos, twos vs threes etc. So knowing that, should be pretty easy to calculate what to package to make moving up worthwhile. When a team adds in its team’s particular needs and its particular knowledge/desire for a certain player – which is in fact just a bet – it would make trading up worthwhile. Gotta measure the odds, then make your bets.
@BOS i do’nt think Dorsey is a bust. He is an outstanding run stopper who has been a disapointment in pass rush. Alot of very knowledgable people think he has been disapointing in rushing the passer because the chiefs changed his position and misused him.
Lucolier
Ngata was #12 but i know what u mean by top pick. Obviously if u look through enough drafts u will find players who performed up to expectations. My point was that getting in to the top 10 to draft a “cant miss prospect” works 50 % of the time and that they miss as much as they hit and if u give up 3 picks to get there u literally put all ur egs in one basket.
Old Coach
He was a “bust” in a sense that he went #6 and has 4 sacks in 5 years (not what the chiefs were expecting im sure) But i agree that he might have been misused. Cowboy was a 4th overall pick and “underachieved” in cincy in terms that he wasnt a 10+ sack guy every year but seemed to thrive for us so im hoping for a similar transformation from dorsey
Grant throwing around the terminology like a pro! Who needs George Seifert! I love it, more of this stuff would be great, Mr Cohn.
So, I’m not sure (Effectively) if there’s really a difference between “Four down linemen” and “Rushing” four with Ahmad or Aldon standing up. I’ll have to back and look at the film but we played the nickel the most out of our sub packages and I don’t think we put four down linemen even in that package. I think we only truly put four down in the dime.
I agree with you though Grant in that we have the personnel for a 4-3, but just vary how we deploy them from package to package.
I agree, I don’t remember seen a playing with 4 down linemen unless it was in the dime package like I stated yesterday.
Trying to impress people, Grant?
Grant when the 9ers shift out of their base 3-4 do’nt they really shift into a 4-2-5 as opposed to a typical 4-3. anyways my point is Fangio like M. Nolan run multiple D’s. So you ca’nt call them a pure 4-3 or a pure 3-4 team.
Ding Ding Ding. I would argue they run their 4-2-5 more than the 3-4 or 4-3. The entire point is, and I wish Grant said this, you cannot catagorize the Niners as a pure 3-4/4-3 team. They are a multiple scheme team.
Grant – if you are saying they run a 4-3, who are the 3 linebackers? Behind Books, Ray, and two Smith’s is Willis/Bowman plus 5 DBs. Its a 4-2-5 my friend.
I’m talking about the base defense when the nose tackle is one the field.
I know. If you watch the tape I have trouble arguing that Aldon is playing a down lineman and Ahmad is playing the OLB. Then its a 5-2-4.
It’s called an Under scheme, which is a variation of a four-man line, not a three-man line.
coach, what is it called on those plays when the 49ers kick Aldon over to the strongside in a 3-point stance next to McDonald who is also in a 3-point with Brooks standing up over the LG with Justin in a 3-point on the weakside? There is no NT in this play, but there are three DL in a 3-point stance.
Spaceborn i would Guess that it would depend on down and distance and what the linebackers do. Do they drop or do they rush. My guess is its a scheme to hide what D they are really in to confuse the QB’s pre snap read.
coach, when I’ve noticed this, it seems like Brooks tries to split the center and guard with McDonald stunting through the gap created while Justin takes on the OT. Pretty sure I’ve seen this reversed with Aldon and Justin in 3-point, Brooks standing over the RG with McDonald at DE with Justin stunting. I was just wondering if that was still considered a 3-4 because it is not a base defense, but still has three down linemen. And this is usually on passing downs with the ILB’s dropping back.
I guess the bottom-line on this is if this could be a way to get Dorsey more snaps by using him this way instead of Brooks. I guess it is really just a 4-man rush with a line stunt no matter what else it is called.
Good discussion, Grant. Several of us danced around the issue yesterday. I think there are so many variations that its hard to define anything in ‘classical’ terms anymore; too much evolution. Just like the WCO; what does that mean these days? Its just a category expressed differently by different teams.
I recall in early Walsh days the Niners used a variant 4-3 scheme that lined up the strong end on the TE and the Sam over the OT. They could shade alignments over or under. Pure forms are rare in most schemes.
You’re not incorrect in your points but there’s more emphasis in SF for the DL to tie up blockers (a la 3-4) for the LBs to make plays. Even penetration by the NT is meant to be generally disruptive.
Thanks, Brotha Tuna.
In a pure 3-4 scheme, the nose tackle covers the center, the ends cover the tackles and the guards are uncovered. The inside linebackers line up over the guards. The 49ers don’t do anything like this. What they do is much more like a 4-3, with three techniques and one-gap penetration. The 49ers don’t line up with five-techs and they don’t really two-gap.
Since Aldon Smith is standing up and there’s a nose tackle on the field, people think the 49ers are using a 3-4 scheme, but they’re not. They’re just using 3-4 personnel in a 4-3 scheme.
The scheme you mention above is a 4-2-5. Unless we have a phantom 3rd linebacker I missed all year. Parrish Cox/Brock were typically the 5th DB on the field when Aldon and Brooks came down to create a 4 man line.
Grant can defend his points without my help but I can basically accept that our base could be defined as a 4-3 Under; Mac-NT-Justin+Aldon w/ Brooks+Bow+PW as the three. In the classic under the whip (PW in this case) would line up outside.
Thanks. Here’s an explanation of what a 4-3 Under is: http://bit.ly/WyIGSj
Billy Davis? I thought he was out of football after the 49ers jettisoned him out. Was he not a bad defensive coordinator for them at one time?
Grant – We do not run that scheme as our base. Pull the all 22 views when the Niners had Soap on the field. Aldon is always on the defensive right, regardless of where the TE lines up and Ahmad stay to the left. A huge key to the 4-3 under is your “leo” rush guy (Aldon in our case) moves to the open (non-TE) side of the field (Seahwaks runs this). The Niners don’t do that in base with Soap on the nose. Aldon was on the right hand side playing in their 3-4 front. We only see Aldon head to the defensive Left when we are in our nickel 4-2-5. Vic Fangio does have Soap play the NT position slightly different than a traditional nose in the traditional 3-4. Just because he has him line up between C/G vs. over Guard doesn’t mean we run the under 4-3. That is simplifying the scheme way too much. The under 4-3 is defined as much by the Leo/Rush guy as it is by the NT position.
He’s always on the defensive right, but he’ll be the Predator or the SLB depending on where the strength of the offense is. If the tight end is on the defensive right, then Brooks will be the predator, McDonald the three-tech, and so on.
@ MikeinSF#2
OK, the flip flopping is different than Seattle, but its a waste imo because if you flip flop the other team can motion strength to the other side. Haley and Dean didn’t flip that much, they mostly stayed on the right. That was the Elephant 3-4 right? But its not all that different than the under.
Infinity Loop
Mike- I agree with your assesment, but it’s called nickel, not 4-2-5. Someone already pointed it out, but the nickel is the most played D in the NFL IMO.
Wasn’t Culliver the fifth DB?
Exgolfer yes he was
The numbers don’t designate roles they simply define the alignment. If you have three men with their hand on the ground and four standing up around them it’s a 3-4 defense, regardless of what they play when the ball is snapped.
Grant,
Do you feel that Baalke/Harbaugh/Fangio have earned the benefit of the doubt with regards to letting go of seemingly key defensive players and, in general, replacing them with cast offs from other teams on low cost contracts?
Grant, thanks for your comments. Assuming one of Sando’s other points — that SF has relied on experienced but more expensive players to implement their complex defensive scheme — and assuming Baalke and the coaches now believe they need to rotate the defensive linemen more and perhaps also the outside linebackers on passing downs, this suggests they either simplify their scheme or try to upgrade their backup corp in as big a way as possible. To me that suggests one of two things, or both:
1. In this years draft they will not look for these positions in the lower rounds or the UFA market.
2. They might trade one or more of their higher picks next year for higher picks this year.
What do you think?
More like this Mr C. interesting and thought provoking.
Do we take a d-lineman in the draft? I think yes and probably a propsect that needs skilling up. Maybe a Margus Hunt type player who could make an immediate impact on blocking kicks with his size who has the potential for a long term replacement for one of our DE/DTs. If Mr Baalke signs a CB, a FS and PK in Free Agency we really are then in a position to use our draft picks on players with potential who can sit in as second string and special team roles whilst developing their skills. Probably means we take several choices with high ceilings who arent great performers straight away. I still hope that our AJ Jenkins will show more of his potential this year.
Grant, you’ve been spending time with Fangio at his defensive resort in Cabo San Lucas havn’t you? Nice article. Would enjoy venturing deeper into his schemes….
Grant out of the total number of defensive snaps, what percentage of those did the 49ers line up with 3 defenders with their hands on the ground?
This is the 49ers’ base defense, a 4-3 Under: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n80/artoftroy/4-3%2520Under%2520Diagrams/Slide1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://trojanfootballanalysis.com/?p%3D308&h=480&w=640&sz=17&tbnid=RlLquhYuiakybM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&zoom=1&usg=__kYQEqDL2ByOU5UK5Blz4KUzsaZk=&docid=hF0BOB5RcbzriM&sa=X&ei=iwhCUYr8EqiA2QXYooGABA&ved=0CD0Q9QEwAQ&dur=78
Notice how Justin Smith lines up at 3-technique, in the B gap, on base downs. In a 3-4, he would be outside the tackle at five-technique.
This is how NFL people name their defenses.
All of the accompanying images show 4 down lineman, and I’m asking you to confirm that the 49ers actually use 4 down lineman more often in total then they use 3. Not just in special packages. From my memory(which is suspect at best) the team more often then not is line up with only 3 men with their hand on the ground and the defense you linked two shows 4 and that’s not how we line up the majority of the time.
In a 4-3 Under, the Predator, or the “DE,” or Aldon Smith, is in a two-point stance. The Predator lines up where a 4-3 DE would line up, and almost always rushes the passer, like a 4-3 DE. The 49ers’ base defense is basically a 4-3 with the RDE standing up. A 3-4 is a totally different thing.
You’re caught up with numbers and hands.
You’re saying I’m caught up in numbers and hands and I’m saying it’s basic definition. The numbers describe the alignment not the roles, period. It’s called a 3-4 because their are 3 men with their hands on the ground(down lineman) and 4 standing up as linebackers. Regardless if one of the linebackers is standing up at the line its still called a 3-4 defense. If you put another man on the line in a down position then you can call it a 4-3/4-2 whatever but the first number is strictly predicated on the number of men with their hands on the ground.
I’m sorry, you’re incorrect.
@ Grant:
I fear we are getting lost in semantics here. While some 3-4 defenses can look at times like a 4-3 defense, that doesn’t change the fact that there are 3 linemen and 4 linebackers on the field. In the video linked below, the coach states that his 3-4 defense will at times look like a 4-3 under defense, but he clearly believes he is running a 3-4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Son6M7h4zSE
Grant Cohn says:
March 14, 2013 at 11:02 am
I’m sorry, you’re incorrect.
——————
No I don’t believe that I am but it also wouldn’t be the first time if I was. Please if you are able to find it, show me where it says that if you have 3 lineman and 4 linebackers that it is called a 4-3 defense and I’ll be fine with it. The link you provided doesn’t say or suggest that at all because you can clearly see 4 lineman in the images.
This is what Billy Davis said about the 4-3 under, which he uses: “Everybody puts us in that 3-4 category, but what we are is an “under” front, a 4-3 “under” defense. The “under” is almost a 3-4. As 3-4′s go, it’s not really what we do here.”
There’s a slight difference, but it’s significant, and that’s why I wrote a blog about it. I understand why it’s confusing, because technically there are three people with their hand on the ground. But Justin Smith and Aldon Smith are lined up in classic 4-3 positions. That’s good to know when we’re thinking of players who fit the 49ers defense.
The question, “Can he play five-tech” is not that important to the 49ers like it is with other 3-4 teams. Dorsey isn’t a great five-tech, but the 49ers wanted him. Why? Because the three-tech in their 4-3 under front is what makes everything go.
3-4 is a loaded term, way beyond three down linemen and four linebackers. 4-3 Under is a much more specific and accurate way to describe the 49ers’ defense.
In terms of what their responsibilities are I agree. Good stuff.
By definition, the 3-4 is three lineman and four linebackers. The 4-3 is four linemen and three linebackers. Anybody who watches the team can see that they utilize elements of both systems. The OLB’s are still the ones that generate the bulk of the sacks, which is where the pressure traditionally comes from in a 3-4. Aldon also is at his most productive when he has Justin Smith taking on two blockers, which is another element of the 3-4, even if they are actually playing out of the 4-3. Nobody is really wrong here because it is a true hybrid defense. The one really good point that Sando made is that Fangio likes veterans, almost to a fault. His schemes are complex, which makes it hard for young players to adapt to quickly. With the salary cap basically staying flat, being able to adapt to the players you have is critical to success. We can all agree on that.
Regardless of whether it is a 3-4 or 4-3 Under, I think the key point is the 49ers base defense is a hybrid of the typical 3-4/ 4-3 alignments. I believe the Texans use a similar scheme and that is referred to as a 3-4, but obviously Billy Davis considers his a 4-3 Under.
Good info either way – I’ll have to have a think about what this means for my DL mock draft selections…
My argument might be semantic because I’m saying that the alignment is what gives you the name, not the roles of the players. They might be playing the roles of 4-3 players but if you only put 3 down lineman on the field it’s a 3-4 defense regardless of what they do after the snap.
@ Coffee. Yeah, me & Big Niner and some others went ’round & ’round on the semantics of this yesterday and nobody has to be wrong. There’s plenty of precedent for some of these variations. Remember Tom Landry’s “Flex” 4-3? Remember the Steel Curtain and how Joe Greene would look to penetrate between C & RG?
The current 3-4s look different than the Orange Crush or the old (original?) Pats 3-4. The Tampa@ has evolved. So, are we counting people in stances?
That’s legit, its empirical. But Grant’s point works too, whatever it looks like they’re not playing a 3-4 as we’ve known it. It got us into an Infinity Loop!
Look at it this way. The base D is a 3-4, but they spend far more time (>60%) of their snaps without a NT.
Saying that they could become a 4-3 doesn’t take much effort because their personnel doesn’t require much changing to go back and forth. They are already doing it.
Hold onto your hats folks…Dan Skuta is in the building in Santa Clara.
buh bye Boobie?
No…buh bye Tavares or Larry.
He’s played FB as well but you’re probably right.
Could it be he replaces Walker on special teams and they go with just two tight ends?
Coffee’s for closers says:
March 14, 2013 at 10:38 am
buh bye Boobie?
————————————
“There’s a good chance he could see some offensive snaps as well. The 49ers love to use defensive players at fullback … and Skuta has some background as a short-yardage back.
“http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/”
I think I’ll say it again….buh bye Boobie.
I hope he has the same ability of Costanzo…
I’m going to have to say no to these old dudes… Woodson, Reed, Asomugha…rebuild your secondary through the draft.
http://www.cincyjungle.com/2013/3/8/4079256/adam-caplan-dan-skuta-among-defensive-free-agent-sleepers
Dan who? We’re bringin in a guy that played at Grand Valley State? I’d rather see what Humboldt State has to offer!
Hahaha Crabs. Humboldt State? Tree sitters & Vanilla Rastafarians! Ask Clem, he’s at the southern edge of The Emerald Triangle.
Tuna – I went to Stoner College for both of my bro-inlaws graduations……funny thing is, neither one of them even talk to Mary Jane…Lol
They have a really cool football stadium setting at Humboldt State, for real man!
Its a pretty campus, Crabs. My alma mater has a rep too; Granola State, aka Sonoma State. If you’re hearty and don’t mind swimming with sharks the size of submarines, the surfings good at both.
Tuna – Did you play any ball at Sonoma/Granola State or were you just chasing the tail around? :)
Here’s what PFT has to say:
“Three of the 49ers’ backup linebackers from last season — Larry Grant, Tavares Gooden, Clark Haggans — are currently free agents, which makes finding a spot for Skuta easy. He also had a brief stint at fullback early in his time with the Bengals and Harbaugh has deployed other defenders that way in the last two years.”
Maybe he replaces Haggans and backs up Miller if they have some plan to upgrade the Boobie.
Sean Smith to KC
I’m so glad Baalke did not overpay for that guy….
He’s inconsistent, but I think he has great upside. We’ll see what the contract looks like but I would have liked us signing him for the right price. 49ers don’t seem legitimately interested in a corner though at this point.
They will be in the draft….Honey Badger cares about going to war with the mighty 49ers!
Honey badger defending the quick slot WR….I can see that
My prediction, nhamdi doesn’t leave without a contract, probably an incentive filled contract for one year. Then next year they cut Rodgers and assess adding a couple more for NhamdI
Is Asomugha better than the 49ers top-three CBs right now?
Is Usain Bolt fast?
Could we argue that he is better vs outside WR than CR? im sure PFF has a metric somwhere. Could he play FS? I know he had trouble in zone scheme in philly but he is rangy, has ball skills and with a lost step could be a possibility. If it worked for the woodson’s and A.Williams later in their careers why not Namdi?
Grant – We need size/length at corner, our corners can’t seem to handle a jump ball. Seattle matchups are key factor.
I agree, and that’s why I like Rhodes. I think Nnamdi may be too old, but we’ll see.
Nnamdi can pretty much only play man, I don’t see him working as a FS since he has a hard time with zone concepts.
we don’t know if Nhamdi is better than what we have now. All I know is culliver,who supposed to be our best cornerback got burned and have problems locating the ball in the air, which isn’t good for a cornerback. Rogers has also slowed down. in fact, if it wasn’t for his dead money, he would have been cut by now.
Rogers was much better than Nnamdi last season.
Grant – Not to mention we’ll probably play Seattle 3 times.
I agree, if Rogers didn’t have money still tied to him, he would be cut. He’s our worst CB IMO.
I have to admit, I like the Tyrann Mathieu a lot more after he said he would like to play for the Niners. With all of the vanilla “It’ll be a blessing to play for anybody” answers most prospects throw out, I like that he isn’t afraid to say who he would love to play for.
Honeybadger likes to win.
Per Jason Cole….Sean Smith deal with KC is 3 yr, $18 mill, $11 mill guaranteed.
Do you want to give that to Asomugha?
No, I mean if the 49ers do give Asomugha something like that I trust them but he was terrible in Philly last year and I’m not sure he’d be an upgrade over any of our top 3 corners right now. If they do bring in Asomugha I hope its more of a prove it, 1 year deal type of thing because thats way too much guaranteed for an old declining corner imo.
I don’t think it’ll require that kind of money. I think you already got paid in Philadelphia. I’ll probably go somewhere in the 3 to 4,000,000 a year range. I think he sees the big picture probably want to win the Superbowl, not to mention coming back home.
Unlike Charles Woodson who is probably looking to get 1 last paycheck Nhamdi is younger and still without a ring. His personality and intellect not to mention his off field charity work trying to get kids in college really fits the bay area.
Hell No! I’d rather move up for Rhodes…..
Who wrote this for you Grant?
I think Grant is a thoughtful, thought-provoking analyst, and I also thank him for sponsoring this blog.
George-
You want to borrow his car? Or meet his girlfriend’s sister? Just kidding.
Houston’s a crusty old salt like me, but on my good days I’d rather reward good work than mock it. My wife would probably have an interesting take on what my percentage of “Good Days” are, but oh well.
Well, I do need a car from time to time, and a young babe on my arm wouldn’t be bad either.
Houston, nothing personal. I enjoy your observations.
I didn’t mean any offense to Grant. Just giving him a hard time in a good natured way. This article was full of coach speak. To the best of my knowledge Grant has never been a coach and maybe never even played a down of football. I certainly appreciate the efforts of a journalist actually putting in the time to learn the technical parts of the game. But that doesn’t put him above taking some ribbing from time to time.
Grant where is the day 3 blog?
With the Chiefs possibly signing OT Long I guess we can throw out Joeckel as the first pick unless they trade down.
OK, enough circular discussion about defensive alignments. ^^ This move has big draft ramifications.
Maybe they have worked out a deal of some kind with us involving picks and players? Fun to speculate.
Agree, I think. It depends on their intentions with Albert going forward but it could mean they go DL, or entertain offers to move back just a few spots and still be sitting pretty. That #1 overall can be a burden sometimes.
Nnamdi….
Grant & Coffee,
According to Madden Football ’13, the 49ers run a 3-4. That should end the debate. :)
Grant — where are Lattimore & the Honey Badger going in mock drafts?
Here’s a thought: With Hunter returning, does anyone think they will try to convert James to a slot receiver? I am thinking the time may come soon to alternate Gore with Hunter or someone else, like Hampton, if he’s worthy. If it’s Hampton — call him Gore B — they wouldn’t carry all those backs, would they?
they can put Hampton on the PS.
That’s very true, but if he is any good, another team willing to offer him a roster spot will be allowed to sign him, as long as he agrees. This year he was recovering from injury. If he shows something next pre-season, we could lose him that way.
I hate to say this but productive RBs are a dime a dozen. So I’m not too worried about losing Hampton.
I would not be surprised if Hampton gives Boobie a run for his money…
Grant – Don’t forget UCLA vs ASU Pac12 Tourney in about 5 minutes!
Nobody cares Crab :)
Yeah yeah yeah Nick….. find us some Niners breaking news than buddy. :)
Bruins have a coaching disadvantage in this one…
I’ve got it on right in front of me.
from my recollection they play both as I recall both Justin Smith and Sopoaga both claiming that they still 2 gap sometimes.
2 Gap 3-4 System
there are a few kinds of 3-4 defenses. The classic is the Bullough/Fairbanks system that the Giants and later Patriots played. It’s the 2 gap system for the down linemen with the Nose lined up in the zero technique right over the Center. Much of this system which is read and react; relies on how intelligent the linemen are at making their reads and disengaging from their blocks. When properly executed, the offense does not have any surprise advantages because the D-linemen are good enough to shutdown whatever comes at them.
One Gap 3-4 System
Then there’s the Bum Phillips 3-4 which is an attacking single gap system where the linemen rush alternating gaps depending on the defensive call. The ILBs have to be quick and sturdy to avoid and disengage blocker since the linemen aren’t sucking up the blockers. Often times the Nose will change his angle and play slanted sort of like a weird 1 technique at angle off of the Center’s shoulder depending on which way the defensive call is made. Much of this defense depends on how well the defensive play caller can anticipate his offensive play caller’s plays. This system is simpler for Defenses as they have one gap to attack and can really put the pressure on the offense by being disruptive in the backfield. but if the play caller guesses incorrectly it can leave the defense very vulnerable. The Niners inheritted this system from Greg Manusky who learned it from Wade Phillips. They didn’t run a pure single gap attacking 3-4 defense but much of what they did was a simplified system which helped after the overly complex system that Nolan tried to install.
The 4-3 Over/Under
A system that features 4 DOWN LINEMEN. Here’s a good description by our rival Seahawks friends. http://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/5/31/2191847/the-pete-carroll-4-3-under-defense-part-i-an-introduction#storyjump.
It’s the system Pete Carrol ran with the Niners back in the 90′s and one that he runs now with the Hawks.
Niner’s Defense a hybrid 4-3 and Attacking 3-4
I don’t think the Niners run an Over/Under defense. The personnel line up doesn’t make sense. First, The SAM would be more of a fast flow coverage and chase down linebacker and not a hybrid like Brooks who frequently rushes the passer as much as he covers. In fact in the Niner’s it’s usually the ILBs that have TE coverage responsibility and not Brooks (which the SAM usually has in a 4-3 Under system). Secondly, THE NINER’S BASE DEFENSE FEATURES 3 DOWN LINEMEN.
Based on past comments by Niner D-linemen, I think the Niners run a combination of some 2 gap and single gap attacking 3-4 defense which has been evolving since the Manusky days. In some ways with the single gap attacking it plays like a 4-3 Under when Aldon rushes and Brooks drops into coverage. However the Niners also alternate (we know they like to mirror their defense as much as possible with the Safeties, ILBs and I’m guessing OLBs), so Brooks will frequently rush too and occasionally Aldon will drop into coverage. I’m guessing this is based on the match up and offensive play calling tendencies.
In the base defense, Aldon Smith (or Brooks, depending on the offense’s formation) is not a classic 3-4 outside linebacker: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/554513/3-4-defense.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.bloggersodear.com/2010/9/28/1717760/how-to-defend-the-option&h=481&w=603&sz=10&tbnid=31mAKTxDRCgmGM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=113&zoom=1&usg=__bN5AV_grpVmZ18RWrxSpvP52dpM=&docid=dPsw3FcpjEOeTM&sa=X&ei=DSdCUYOiJ4jL2QX2sICwBw&ved=0CEoQ9QEwAw&dur=1448
He’s a 4-3 DE in a two-point stance. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n80/artoftroy/4-3%2520Under%2520Diagrams/Slide1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://trojanfootballanalysis.com/?p%3D308&h=480&w=640&sz=17&tbnid=RlLquhYuiakybM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&zoom=1&usg=__kYQEqDL2ByOU5UK5Blz4KUzsaZk=&docid=hF0BOB5RcbzriM&sa=X&ei=iwhCUYr8EqiA2QXYooGABA&ved=0CD0Q9QEwAQ&dur=78
Big difference.
if he’s in a 2 point stance. THEN IT’S A 3-4.
Also, Brook’s responsibilities aren’t those of a 4-3 SAM. BROOKS RUSHES THE PASSER IN THE BASE DEFENSE AS WELL AS COVERS. In the 4-3 the SAM covers the TE and plays outside contain almost exclusively. More like Derrick Brooks than Lemar Woodley.
When Brooks is rushing, Aldon Smith is the Sam. It’s flipped depending on which side the tight end line up. If it was a 3-4, neither OLB would line up so close to the offensive tackle, and neither Justin Smith nor Ray McDonald would be at three-technique. Those are the characteristics of a 4-3 Under. The 49ers are tweaking it by standing the Predator or Leo up, but it’s still a four-man under front.
secondly, if Aldon drops into coverage…which he does from time to time. HE’S NOT A DEFENSIVE END…standing up or otherwise.
The problem Grant is that your only knowledge of the 3-4 is that of a 2 gap system where the 5 techniques occupy the Tackles.
3-4 lines shift like 4-3 lines. And they can attack single gaps like a 4-3 too.
So yes, Aldon or Brooks can line up right over a Tackle. And neither plays like a 3-4 SAM. When was the last time you saw Aldon or Brooks covering a Tight End?
How Harbaugh sees the Niners using Dorsey and Ian Willians – via Matt Barrows who just interviewed him:
What position will Glenn Dorsey play? Is nose tackle where you think he’ll end up?
JH: Yeah, I think the way Vic (Fangio) and Jimmy Tomsula do it, he’s the nose with Ian Williams. Then if Ian comes along, he’s going to get quite a few of those reps and Glenn can be an end as well and take some of those snaps as well. So we have high hopes and expectations for his contribution.
Sounds like they’re hoping Dorsey is Justin Smith’s heir apparent down the line.
Even more telling that they think Ian Williams is the NT of the future.
Uh, yeah, Grant. A least one of your readers was saying that about Dorsey a month ago, not that you give a hoot about your more intelligent contingent.
Try giving substance a chance over style for a change.
Let’s be fair to Grant here. His post was substantial. It took a fair amount of research on defensive alignments. It’s just IMO he’s wrong.
His point is that the Niners use more of an attacking single gap type of defensive system that will suit Glenn Dorsey’s skills better than most people think because most people think of a classic 2 gap Nose Tackle…which isn’t Dorsey’s strong suit. GRANT IS RIGHT ABOUT THAT POINT.
Where he is wrong IMO is that he says the Niners use a 4-3 Under defensive system/alignment. He believes this because of the alignment of the Defensive Linemen…where they line up or “techniques” defines their Defensive system. What he fails to realize is that it isn’t the alignment that defines the Defense, it’s their responsibilities and the basic question as to if the DE/OLB has his hand down or not. Grant doesn’t understand that 3-4 Defenses can single gap attack like a 4-3 defense and that their alignments can shift like a 4-3 defense. But that doesn’t make them a 4-3 defense.
Thanks for thinking this through with me. This is a lot of fun.
You don’t have to be in a three-point stance to be a defensive end. The 49ers’ Leo lines up in a two-point stance where a 4-3 DE would line up – right in front of the offensive tackle. He is not an outside linebacker – a 3-4 OLB does not line up in front of the left tackle, the 3-4 five-technique does that. The 49ers don’t have either of those positions on the weakside.
On the 49ers’ defensive weak side, they have a three-tech and a DE in a two-point stance, so it’s a 4-3 Under. The Leo is rushing almost every snap. It’s the Sam on the strong side of the formation who occasionally drops.
definition of a down lineman is a hand on the ground.
a linebacker sometimes drops in coverage.
the Niners themselves call Aldon Smith a linebacker. In fact it was a big issue of debate as to weather or not he could transition from a pass rush specialist Defensive End into a stand up outside Linebacker. Remember it was Parys Harelson that was the OLB that had to do all the other things an Outside Linebacker had to do when the Niners were in their base 3-4 defense.
Also, look at it this way. The Niners were an attacking (mostly single gap) 3-4 team with Manusky. Fangio’s greatest influence is Dom Capers who is a well known 3-4 Defensive scheme specialist.
So let’s review:
The basic definition of a 3-4 Defense is 3 down linemen. A down linemen has his hand on the ground
Aldon Smith lines up in the base defense in a 2 point stance (no hand on the ground). Therefore there are 3 down linemen in the base defense.
Aldon drops into coverage on occasion. He has outside contain responsibilities like a linebacker (something Harelson did well) vs. a Defensive End who funnels the ball carrier to the WILL or SAM. The Niners CALL HIM A LINEBACKER.
The Niners ran an attacking single gap defense before Fangio became the DC.
Fangio’s professional influences come directly from Dom Capers a 3-4 zone blitz guru. the Niners don’t zone blitz much…but they do use a 3-4.
Brooks doesn’t have responsibilities like a 4-3 SAM linebacker. He sometimes rushes the passer and generally takes on blocker directly for containment purposes vs. simply to have a Defensive End funnel them to him while he sits free over the Tight End. Brooks also doesn’t usually cover the Tight End in the Niner’s defense like a 4-3 SAM usually does.
The definition of a defensive end is not a guy with his hand on the ground. If Aldon Smith or Ahmad Brooks lines up in front of the offensive tackle and rushes, he’s a defensive end. It doesn’t matter what stance he started his rush from. 3-4 outside linebackers do not line up directly in front of tackles, only defensive ends do that.
Aldon Smith is a linebacker sometimes – when the base defense is on the field and the tight end is on his side. Then he lines up outside the tight end – not in front of the tackle – and he’s the Sam.
Grant, again let me make this simple…in a 3-4 THE FRONT 7 CAN LINE UP HOWEVER THEY WANT TO. Again, their lines shift just like a 4-3 depending on how the defense is called.
In a 3-4 D lineman usually play multiple positions You can be a OLB\DE like Brooks and A. Smith or a DE\DT like R. McDonald and J. Smith. Thats how in 2011 J. Smith was picked as all pro at both DT and DE. Its not rocket science.
we’re only talking about the BASE defense.
Grant, what does the LOLB do in a standard 3-4 defense? He doesn’t rush the passer on every play. How does he play differently than the SAM in your 4-3 Under that you’re describing? (and do NOT go back to the simple line up position…because again that has NO BEARING on the definition of the position). If what you describe is true…other than simplistic alignment (which again HAS NO BEARING ON the definitions of the defensive scheme)…all 3-4 defenses would be 4-3 Under schemes with a “stand up linebacker”…that really isn’t …but might be…but really isn’t.
Here’s another way of looking at it. Who has C/D gap responsibility on the Weak Side? In a 3-4 the WILL/ROLB has that responsibility. In a 4-3 the End doesn’t have C/D Gap responsibility. The WILL does. But unless there’s a line stunt, the outside edge is always Aldon’s responsibility which means his gap responsibilities are those of a linebacker’s.
That’s incorrect. It’s only Aldon’s responsibility if he’s the Sam on the play. If he’s the Leo, he’s a pure rusher.
He’s never a pure pass rusher in the base defense. That’s part of the problem he’s had is diagnosing plays. In the base defense it makes him a step slow at rushing the passer and gets him blocked out of running plays. The OLB has to determine if he rushes or contains the run.
Yes he is, when the tight end is on the defense’s left side. Go watch the tape again. It’s right there in front of you.
and if you’re going to INCORRECTLY call Aldon a hybrid defensive end/OLB pass rush specialist at least use the Niner’s traditional terminology of “Elephant”.
The Chiefs in the 90′s used to call their pass rush specialist, Derrick Thomas the “Falcon” in their defensive scheme.
what does the Tight End have to do with it? He has outside contain no matter what JUST LIKE A LINEBACKER. When the Tight End is to his side, it doesn’t matter because in the Niner’s scheme the Tight End is usually covered by Bowman or Willis.
in fact that furthers my point. In the 4-3 Under the SAM usually has the Tight End in coverage (think about how well those early 00′s Tampa Bay OLBs played coverage). But in the Niner’s system, Bowman and Willis usually cover the Tight End.
Again Grant, I don’t think you understand 3-4 defenses and how they shift alignments. Do some research of single gap attacking 3-4 defenses.
3-4 defenses don’t use a standing DE, and they don’t use a three-tech. If you can show me otherwise, go ahead. Until then, you’re the one who needs to do the research.
why is it always has c or d gap 1 run responsibilityalso has covered responsibility is a linebacker. 3 guys with our hands in the dirt and 3 guya standing up behind them is a 3-4 defense. if you’re telling me a defensive scheme is defined bye what techniques the defensive lineman lineup and that it doesn’t change you’re just being absurd. even play high school football knows that defensive lines shift even in a 34. Heck it even shifts in changes in Madden.I don’t have to research and prove anything. What you’re saying that defensive scheme and techniques are bound together and immutable the proven with research.
You’re whole argument is the 49ers’ base defense has to be a 3-4 because the weakside DE is in a two-point stance. That is absurd.
I wrote that above comment with Google Voice text so that’s why it sounds kind of weird
no it isn’t are you even reading my posts? It has to do with Allen’s responsibilitiesprotecting the outside edge perimeter in the run game just like a linebacker the fact that the Sam doesn’t cover the tight end in the Niners defense. And the basic fact that 3 guys have their hands in the dirt and 4 eyes are standing up by definition of the 34 defense.
1. You’re wrong about Aldon’s responsibilities.
2. The Sam covering the tight end is not the definition of a 4-3 under.
3. Your definition of a 3-4 is oversimplified and incorrect. 3-4 inplies four linebackers. But the 49ers only use three in the base. One of the “OLBs” is a stand up DE who is rushing. Your argument presupposes a 4-3 DE must rush from a three-point stance, which is false.
oh yeah, and even Aldon’s coaches call him a linebacker. which would imply that more often than not in the base defense he would be the SAM BY YOUR DEFINITION. But we know that’s not the case because most teams don’t favor the offensive left side (defensive right) of the line when lined up in their base personnel matched up against the Niners’ base defense.
the Elephant or Leo JUST RUSHES THE PASSER or has Defensive End B Gap responsibilities (funneling to either the WILL or the MIKE). They do not drop into coverage.
Aldon is only the Leo when the TE is on the strong side, which is most of the time. When the tight end is on the weakside, Brooks is the Leo. I’m repeating myself so I’ll stop. I take it I’m not going to convince you. That’s OK. This was fun.
No I’m not wrong about Aldon’s responsibilities. You’re saying there’s a WILL linebacker that has the C/D Gap….WHERE???
The SAM in the 4-3 usually has the Tight End and more often than not has the Tight End in the 4-3 Under scheme. show me your references for the 4-3 under scheme.
So tell me, HOW IS ALDON NOT A LINEBACKER?
1. He has outside contain….THERE IS NO WILL BACKER playing behind him for containment.
2. He has coverage responsibilities
3. He rushes the passer
4. He plays in a two point stance.
My definition of a Defensive End is that he rushes from a two point stance (which pretty much EVERYBODY would agree with AND HAS C/D GAP CONTAINMENT RESPONSIBILITIES….again NO WILL BACKER playing behind Aldon.
When you use all caps you’re much more persuasive.
Go back and watch the games. I’ve been doing that all day. Every time the 49ers are in a base defense, you’ll see the weakside DE, usually Aldon, rush the passer from a two point stance, basically a five-tech position, right in front of the tackle. The Vikings took advantage of this on their second offensive play Week 3 by throwing a pass to Percy Harvin in the left flat.
i use caps to highlight my point, as my writing sometimes gets overly convoluted.
against the pass, of course Aldon rushes the passer in the base defense. even when there’s a tight end to his side. bowman and willis have the tight ends.
again, the technique doesn’t matter. just responsibilities.
yes, i remember the Viking’s game. Aldon was taken advantage of in the pass game and the run game. Playing OLB requires diagnosing (I’d normally capitalize that to highlight this) the play and determining weather or not to play D gap containment or to rush the passer. a number of times Aldon crashed in and lost containment and Peterson ran outside of him usually on a cutback. Against the pass, as you said, he was out of place for Harvin’s pass in the flat.
It’s the ability to diagnose the play at the snap, recognize blocking assignments etc… that made Parys Harelson so good for the Niners in 2011. He rarely was out of place and lost containment except against really fast backs. But throughout the year (watch Aldon closely) Aldon was busy peaking up (he’s almost standing up) while being blocked and trying to figure out how to attack the defense and was ridden out of many plays while in the base defense.
Wow, Grant, that’s a little petty of you. I thought you were above the fray. Apparently not. You’re just not up for recognizing my brilliance and giving me my prize for being the Dorsey Whisperer, are you? That’s cool. I’m not in high-school anymore. Cliques are lame. You have substance. Let it shine.
btw. I admire your attempt at X’s and O’s discussions. It’s my favorite part of football. even though i know you’re wrong. keep it up.
Good info Grant.
Whether the Niners us a classic 3-4 or “4-3 Under”, they have so much invested in Willis-Bowman-Aldon-Brooks, I don’t see them making major changes that affect that core group in a fundamental way (like a classic every down 4-3 would).
Willis and Bowman are pumas, not fire plugs. If I’m not mistaken, as long as that duo plays it will be the lineman’s job to create lanes for Willis-Bowman to the ball carrier. A functional 3-4 no matter what the formation.
Or in other words, you don’t change the job descriptions of Secretariat and Sea-Biscuit because you have new plow horses in the stable.
A 4-3 under helps Bowman because it creates a wall on the weakside. Aldon takes the tackle, Justin takes the guard and the nose shoots the strong side a gap, taking the center, so Bowman is free to run around.
I have heard over the decades that in 4-3′s the linemen get the glory, knifing into the backfield, flowing to the ball carrier… while in 3-4′s the .linebackers get the glory as the D-linemen are busy tying up blockers.
When I watch the 49ers it feels like a 3-4.
Of course, it all changes on passing downs. I consider Aldon a DE in the mold of Cedrick Hardman, Fred Dean and Charles Haley.
Dagnabit! Somebody call John Grudin and let’s get this stuff straight!
Or do what I’m doing and watch The Doors from a ’68 concert……..”until the end…” KQED
I prune roses for a living. I need all the help I can get. Anyone know of a good internet glossary (with a few low-bandwidth friendly graphics) that explains “1 gap”, “2 gap”, “5 technique” “Will”, “Mike” and so on.
The NY Times had one. Delved into the history of the 4-3 and so on. I’ll look for it.
This one is pretty good. The terms are from the classic forms of the 3-4 and 4-3 though, which are almost as extinct as the classic WCO.
http://www.fantasyguru.com/football/subscribers/articles/8-5-11defense.php
Found the NY Times article. Under “How the “Under” Front Made Warren Sapp a Star “explains changing from a “3 tech” vs a “5 tech” and so on.
http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/06/guide-to-n-f-l-defenses-part-1/
Sorry no link but Pro Football Focus. Search articles for d line techniques
Here’s a good view of the 49ers’ 4-3 Under: http://oi49.tinypic.com/lll00.jpg
Notice the tight end is on the defense’s right, so Aldon Smith is the Sam, Justin Smith is the five-tech, Isaac Sopoaga is the one-tech, Ray McDonald is the three-tech, Ahmad Brooks is the Leo and Donte Whitner is the eighth man in the box.
why do you call it a 4-3 Under?
how do I make you understand this concept. You seem stuck on a static definition of the 3-4 in terms of technique and alignment. The alignment and techniques of the Defensive front 7 have nothing to do with weather the defense is a 4-3 or a 3-4. I’ve said over and over again, 3-4 lines shift like any line. So the Nose can be a 0, 1 or 3 even a 3 technique.
Now what is the difference between a shifted 3-4 defense and a 4-3 with a “stand up defensive end”? here is a nearly identical image of a 4-3 Under http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1104946/4-3_Under.png. Looks similar, I know.
the difference is the responsibility of the OLB/”stand up DE” In the Seahawks Defense the “stand up DE” or “Leo” does not have the C/D Gap responsibility; he holds the edge almost like a 5 technique while the Will has the C/D Gap. That “Leo” doesn’t drop into coverage in the Seahawks system either. In the Niners’ 3-4 Defense Aldon has the C/D Gap responsibility. Again, it’s why he was vulnerable because of the reads he has to make at the snap; read blocks and plays. Does he rush? Does he hold the edge? When a runner gets around the edge the Niners’ on the right side (usually) it’s Aldon’s fault. In the Seahawk’s 4-3 it’s the Will’s fault. also, that SAM for the Seahawks probably has the Tight End in coverage…unlike Brooks in the Niner’s defense.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/cosell-3-4-4-3-concepts-more-personnel-163318715–nfl.html
“Yet there was another element of the Giants “3-4” that was universally overlooked. It was not a 3-4 in the strict “2-gap” sense. This returns us to the opening thesis about gap concepts. The Giants aligned in what was essentially a 4-3 “under” front with Taylor almost always positioned on the open side of the offensive formation, away from the tight end. A 4-3 “under” features a “three-technique” defensive tackle, a “one-technique” tackle and a strong-side defensive end. Taylor was simply the weak side defensive end; all he did was stand up in a two-point stance rather than put his hand on the ground. But that change in alignment demanded a different kind of athlete, and that marked a demarcation point in the defensive evolution of the NFL.”
The only difference between the Giants’ front with Lawrence Taylor and the 49ers’ front is the 49ers don’t move Aldon Smith on base downs. They trust Brooks to be the stand up weakside DE when the strength of the offense’s formation is on the defense’s right side.
One more excerpt: “…the evolution of the “1-gap” 3-4, or more correctly, 4-3 with a more athletic linebacker in the role of defensive end. It’s a more adaptable and resourceful defense, and it puts a premium on one of the most difficult positions to find in the NFL draft: the edge pass rusher who can win one-on-one versus offensive tackles.”
one of the first things I mentioned in my post was a One Gap 3-4 defenses. In fact I provided some history on it. It’s the Bum Phillips system.
Now as for the Giants; of course Lawrence Taylor was essentially a stand up Defensive End. He rarely dropped into coverage or did anything but rush up field. C/D Gap responsibility was the Will’s job. However early in his career, Taylor was more versatile. The Fairbanks-Bullough 2-gap 3-4 system that Parcells inherited on the Giants was still being used to a certain degree. As the Giants faced more passing focused teams (like the Niners), they moved to the more attacking upfield rushing type of 4-3 under defense that you describe.
The 49ers’ weakside DE dropped into coverage maybe three times all season. I challenge you to find those plays. The 49ers rarely use a three-man pass rush on base downs. 99 percent of the time, the 49ers’ stand up weakside DE rushes.
When you see Aldon drop into coverage, he’s probably the Sam on that play.
it all essentially boils down to what we believe Aldon and Brook’s responsibilities are in terms of gap control and coverage.
do you agree or disagree with me about Aldon’s gap control responsibilities?
Aldon only has those responsibilities when he’s the Sam. When he’s the weakside rusher, he isn’t supposed to give up the edge, but his main job is to rush the QB. Watch the beginning of the Vikings game, I think it’s the second play. The 49ers are in their base 4-3 Under. Aldon rushes. Percy Harvin runs around the backfield, Ponder floats a pass over Aldon’s head and completes it to Harvin in the left flat. NaVorro Bowman sprints over and forces him out of bounds. Bowman had C/D gap responsibility, not Aldon. The play was designed to take advantage of the 49ers’ 4-3 Under.
here’s another way to look at it.
Why would the Niners drop Aldon into coverage with no Tight End on his side? In fact they’d most likely rush him anyway and stick Bowman or Willis on the Tight End on his side. But Aldon does drop into coverage sometimes. But here’s the key: in the 4-3 Under if the defense flips and the stand up DE is suddenly the SAM, he doesn’t drop into coverage rarely if ever. More than likely he will either still rush from his side or line up on the other side and rush. in the 4-3 under the stand up DE never has C/D Gap responsibility because he’s always rushing up field. Aldon is a linebacker that rushes and (will sometimes) drop into coverage when a TE is lined up over him into coverage and has C/D gap responsibility at all times. again, this is not the case for a “stand up” Defensive End.
Like I’ve been saying, Aldon doesn’t drop if the tight end is on the other side because then he’s a stand up DE.
If you want to refute that, point out five plays from 2012 where he dropped from the stand up DE position. I’ll make it easier for you – point out two plays.
Bowman had C/D gap responsibility, not Aldon.
Or Aldon had it, but made a mistake.
http://www.ninersnation.com/2012/9/27/3415362/49ers-vs-vikings-percy-harvin-swing-pass-breakdown
Or Bowman made a mistake, or Aldon becomes a linebacker when the offense shifts like that.
sorry my last post should have read that the stand up DE does NOT have C/D Gap responsibility the Will does. (stupid android keyboard).
@ Grant:
It could have been any of those things, but then again, I’m not the one stating with absolute certainty what formation the 49ers were in and who had what responsibilities.
I’ve been re-watching the 49ers’ 2012 games all month, and I’m positive their base defense was a 4-3 Under. They just use their inside linebackers in coverage more than other teams because Willis and Bowman are the best coverage linebackers in football. The front is pure 4-3 under. There’s the stand up de, the three-tech, the one-tech, the five-tech and the Sam. That’s a 4-3 Under front.
yeah, that’s a tough example.
if Harvin lined up on Aldon’s side he’d have probably read pass and dropped into coverage either man or zone (i’m not sure) and covered the flat. if it had been Harvin lined up in the backfield and it was pitched to him, it would have been Aldon that would have had to have cut off the perimeter.
But Harvin was lined up on the other side and Aldon had no eligible recceiver lined up over him so he read pass and rushed up field.
That leaves it up to Bowman or possibly the original Corner on the other side (Rogers?) that was covering him to follow Harvin all the way to the other side if it was man?
That play was well designed to screw up the OLB and Will’s reads in the base defense.
as with most things, it isn’t black and white. i’m pretty sure most NFL defenses aren’t completely one thing or the other. and while I’m fairly certain that Aldon Smith has mostly OLB responsibilities in a 3-4. They will OCCASIONALLY move him around like an Elephant (or Leo if you’re a Seahawk) stand up DE and you’ll see him on the left side. In fact it was the Bears game where he abused both the Bear’s Right and Left tackles. But you don’t see them move him around too often.
They move him around in the sub packages. I’m talking about the base 4-3 Under front.
You’re right, the 49ers’ 4-3 under is different than the Seahawks’. The 49ers’ 4-3 under uses 3-4 personnel and looks more like a 3-4. The “Leo” is a stand up DE, not a DE in a three-point stance, and he doesn’t move around the formation depending on where the tight end is. The 49ers trust Brooks to be the Leo and Aldon to be the Sam when the TE is on the offense’s left side instead of the right side.
look at the link of the pic which shows the Seahawk’s 4-3 Under. their “Leo” is in a 2 point stance. there’s a perfect example of your stand up DE.
that difference along with gap responsibility is what makes the Niner’s base defensive scheme mostly an attacking one gap 3-4 and not a 4-3 Under like the Seahwaks.
This picture? I see a three-point stance. http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1104946/4-3_Under.png
A one-gap 3-4 is a 4-3 Under. 4-3 Under is the correct term. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/cosell-3-4-4-3-concepts-more-personnel-163318715–nfl.html
“the “1-gap” 3-4, or more correctly, 4-3 with a more athletic linebacker in the role of defensive end”
from Cosel’s article in the conclusion.
“This was by no means a complete and thorough breakdown of front alignments. “
No, just enough to debunk your entire argument.
look closely. the Leo is crouched low but I don’t see his hand on the ground. btw. i’m trying to strength your point about the existence of “stand up” defensive ends.
the Cosell article pretty much goes along with what I’m saying. Cosell is talking about one gap 3-4 defenses. He talks about Wade Phillips, I credited his dad Bum Phillips who was the head coach of the Oilers while Wade was the defensive line coach.
I didn’t disagree with your initial take about Dorsey possibly being a one gap Nose Tackle. your point was to disspell most people’s notions about the need for a big 2 gap Nose Tackle in the classic 3-4 sense. I agree with you (though I believe the Niners do still use some 2 gap on the line sometimes based on some of the D-line’s comments…again I don’t think it’s a black and white thing).
we’re finely splitting hairs here by defining player’s roles to describe their defensive system. even beyond what Cosell is talking about which his point is the one gap 3-4 system. again, that “athletic linebacker” who is a “stand up” defensive end rarely or never drops into coverage and almost always rushes up field and doesn’t have C/D gap responsibility (the Will does)…he’s the guy that is moved around…that role is part of the 4-3 Under. Aldon is more flexible and is closer to a classic linebacker role in the 3-4; C/D gap containment and drops into coverage when a receiver lines up over him.
I agree, at this point we’re splitting hairs.
The 49ers do not move around their Leo like other teams do. It can be either Aldon or Brooks depending on the where the tight end is (I think the Niners are smart to tweak the 4-3 Under this way. You can always avoid the Leo by moving the tight end before the snap. Better to have two Leos who can both double as Sams). And I’m saying whomever is the stand up DE on that play, he doesn’t have C/D gap control, he just rushes. So while Aldon and Brooks do drop, they only do it when they’re the Sam. They don’t line up at weakside stand up DE and drop.
so this is the key: I believe that Aldon always has C/D gap responsibility. It doesn’t matter if he’s the SAM or the Will. If he reads pass, he pins his ears back and goes as do the other linemen and gap responsibility is mostly disregarded…that’s in theory why draw plays work.
it’s also why that Vikings play is so devilish. Aldon had no choice but to read pass, even though that pass in the flat to Harvin (who came from the other side) was essentially a run play to the C gap. Either Aldon reads it and drops into coverage or Bowman reads it and knows Aldons rushing and has to get over to cover the flat.
Aldon has C/D gap responsibility only when he’s the Sam, and I’ll show you.
Here he is as as the Leo in the 49ers’ 4-3 Under base front: http://oi50.tinypic.com/2uduqv5.jpg
Bradford drops back and Aldon is committed to rushing. Brooks, the Sam, has dropped into coverage: http://oi45.tinypic.com/vwwv2f.jpg
Bradford completes a pass over Aldon’s head to Daryl Richardson in the weakside flat. Patrick Willis, the weakside linebacker on this play, is assigned to the D gap and makes the tackle: http://oi47.tinypic.com/1el2ec.jpg
This is a 3-4: http://oi49.tinypic.com/34h6yj7.jpg Notice one zero-technique, two five-techniques, two outside linebackers and two inside linebackers lined up over two uncovered guards.
actually correction. if Aldon reads pass as the WILL he rushes as the SAM he may cover or rush but he always has C/D gap responsibility.
Grant, there is no debate as to weather or not Aldon has C/D Gap responsibilities when the opponent passes. He rushes, that’s what he does. When he reads pass, he rushes. He rushes like a defensive end.
Gap responsibility takes over in the run game. as the WILL he has C/D gap responsibility against the run.
again, it’s those reads that have frozen Aldon in the base offense and have made him slower to pass rush and vulnerable in the run game.
Of course Aldon Smith doesn’t rush when it’s obviously a run. He reacts to the run like any defensive end would.
your example was a pass in the flat and how the pass went over Aldon’s head and the tackle was made by Willis. i’m not sure what your point is. Aldon reads pass and rushes…no debate. you’re talking about gap responsibility and then bring up a pass play.
Aldon reacts like a cover guy a “SAM” when there is a Tight End line up in front of him. In the 4-3 Over, Elephant continues to rush the passer. we’re in agreement on these points.
So let’s review and define a couple of things:
4-3 Under
Stand up Defensive End mostly rushes exclusively. If the tight end is to his side, he still rushes often times by simply swapping sides with the SAM. the SAM unless blitzing almost always has coverage responsibility. The Elephant does not have C/D gap responsibility the Will or SAM does.
One gap 3-4
OLB rushes the passer when he’s on the weakside and reads pass. when he’s on the strong side he drops into coverage (unless there’s a blitz). on run plays they always have the C/D gap responsibility.
49er’s Defense
Aldon is the Right/(usually) Weakside Outside Linebacker/Defensive End. When he’s on the weak side he rushes. Brooks is usually on the Strongside and usually drops into coverage (unless blitzing) or rushes when he’s on the weakside.
which of the two defenses does it sound like the Niners run?
i made no mention of gaps responsibility and the pass game. i did string to sentences next to each other so I can see how that’s misleading.
i’ve already made the distinctions between a single gap 3-4 and a 4-3 Under.
okay, so describe a single gap 3-4 defense.
again, does Aldon EXCLUSIVELY rush the passer?
There is no distinction, as Greg Cosell correctly explained. One-gap 3-4 is what fans call the formation. 4-3 Under is what NFL coaches call it.
Yet former players and team executives say the 49ers run a 3-4. As I see it, affp has Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan on his side; Grant has Greg Cosell.
Advantage affp
You don’t have your own opinion on this issue?
I’m not relying on Cosell to form my opinion. I can see it for myself.
Having put no time into studying it, but enjoying the debate, seeing that both Smith and Brooks will drop into coverage depending upon the offensive alignment, I’d say the 49ers run a 3-4.
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I have a hard time believing that you came up with the idea that the 49ers run a 4-3 Under all on your own without someone else putting the idea in your head.
Why do you define a 3-4 that way? That’s not how a 3-4 is defined.
A 3-4 is defined by at least one defensive lineman two-gapping, specificially the nose tackle, and often the defensive ends as well. A “one-gap 3-4″ is more correctly defined as a 4-3 Under, because that’s how it functions. No one in the NFL calls their defense a one-gap 3-4.
well, given that I admit that I’m no expert. and i’m very sure you’re no expert. wouldn’t the conventional thinking more than likely be correct vs. standing out and thinking for yourself despite evidence to the contrary?
Conventional wisdom is way behind the true NFL vocabulary in a lot of cases, specifically this one.
claude,
he didn’t come up with it all by himself. he misread Cosells’ article.
I don’t define it that way so much as note what responsibilities each position has. 4-3 DEs don’t have coverage responsibilities (zone blitzes being the possible exception).
Fwiw, the 49ers list Aldon Smith as a LB. http://www.49ers.com/team/roster.html
You guys have fun battling it out. I’m heading out for an early start on the weekend.
When Aldon is the DE, when the tight end is on the other side of the formation in base personnel, he does not have coverage responsibilities.
And when they do positional drills before practice, Aldon warms up with the defensive linemen, not the linebackers. Brooks warms up with the linebackers.
you haven’t debunked a thing! just because you’re misreading Cossell’s article? yes he draws comparisons to the 4-3 and the 3-4 in terms of one gap responsibility by the 3 down linemen. but that’s it. does he talk about linebacker coverage or C/D gap responsibility? no.
“This was by no means a complete and thorough breakdown of front alignments.”
Tight end coverage and C/D gap responsibility is not the defining factor of anything. Show some evidence that it is.
Show me a picture or a diagram of a one-gap 3-4.
what kind of picture of a 3-4 0ne gap defense do you want? what do you want to show?
btw. great debate guys. love X’s and O’s talk. nice example for discussion Claude.
Me too. This is a blast. I learn from you guys.