Evaluating Kyle Shanahan’s reason for not throwing deep vs. the Seahawks

During Sunday’s game against the Seahawks, Brian Hoyer threw zero passes more than 20 yards downfield and only two passes more than 10 yards downfield. I asked Kyle Shanahan during his Monday conference call why Hoyer never threw deep. Here’s what Shanahan said:

“We had a couple shots early and the protection didn’t hold up. Then it was basically what they were giving to you. If you sit back and try to make a living in Seattle versus that pass rush of dropping back deep and just trying to throw deep balls, they are going to lead to a lot more sacks and turnovers than you are deep plays. Our goal is to win the game. We tried to call a game and put a game plan together that gave us a chance to win the game at the end. We didn’t think going deep all the time was the best way to do that. Depending on how they play is when you go deep. You just don’t call plays that say go deep or go short. It depends on what you’re going against.”

I don’t buy Shanahan’s explanation. He basically said he conceded to the Seahawks by taking what they were giving. He played into their game plan rather than dictating to them.

The 49ers missed multiple opportunities to throw long, such as when the Seahawks played bump-and-run man-to-man coverage with just one deep defender — the free safety. When the defense plays bump and run, the quarterback can throw deep quickly. He doesn’t have to take a seven-step drop and hold the ball and worry about pass protection. He just has to look off the free safety and make the throw.

Another opportunity to throw long came in the second quarter. The 49ers faced second-and-1 from the Seahawks 19-yard line and the Seahawks defense was playing three-deep zone. This was the perfect time to take a shot into the end zone. Shanahan could have called Y Stick Nod, or Four Verticals from a shotgun formation with a three-step drop by the quarterback. But Shanahan called a shallow crossing pattern for Pierre Garcon, and the pass was incomplete.

Shanahan coached scared against the Seahawks. Cannot win that way. Can’t do it.

This article has 332 Comments

  1. You know some of your reporting is good I’ll give you that. But I truely believe that you think you would be a better coach then Shanahan. It’s really laughable to read some of your stuff. Honest question, do you think for a second that you would be able to draw up and execute a successful game plan against Seattle at the Link? I would love to hear that answer.

    1. The more I have been reading some of Grant’s articles the more I am starting to agree with you Scott, and I also think a lot of Grant’s reporting is fantastic and gives a lot of great information that we do not get from some of the other reporters – I appreciate that .

      However, seeing Grant come back after each PC with Shanahan the day after the game and calling out Shanahan for something he said, and continuing to talk about how bad his play calling is (when Shanny has been one of the best playcallers in the league the last few years), I am starting to get the feeling that this is an agenda to create some controversy and anger leading to more article views and interaction (which I guess I cannot blame since that his part of his job, however it is kind of annoying). Or maybe I am way off base and just being a bit harsh, but same could be asked to Grant regarding his thoughts on Shanahan so far.

      I also feel like if Grant actually thinks that Shanahan is doing a poor job (based on his weekly grades) and is not getting the job done, that there is no way that he would be able to keep his 9-7 prediction (even with the poor SOS). So after thinking about it, I think he is keeping the prediction at 9-7 because he gets to have it both ways in the fact that if Shanny does not get it done, he can point to the fact he has been calling him out for poor coaching and bad play calling all season, but if we do hit the 9-7 mark, he will be able to say “I told you so, Shanahan must of listened to me”. Pretty smart actually…

    2. Seriously who is this guy that thinks he knows more than Kyle shanahan? Hilarious. What did he get those playcalls from the Madden video game. Coach is absolutely right. U can’t beat Seattle by attacking deep not with our QBs. Their safeties r way too good. We would’ve lost by 30 instead of 3 if they listened

      1. And lost the field position battle which would have put our defense in more of a hole.
        The fact that Kyle Shannahan is being questioned after 2 games is mind boggling. Did we expect Shanny to coach Brian Hoyer to 300 yard passing games because the last time I checked, Brian Hoyer has been on 5 different teams? That sums it all up.

        And now Grant thinks he knows how to beat one of the best defenses in the NFL for the last 5 years, at home, with that noise? By throwing deep? Come on man!

        1. But it also produced 159 rushing yards against a stout defense that has previously only allowed 4 RB’s to do that at home.
          It also produced a tie game going into the 4th quarter and probably would have won had that short 6 yard pass been caught by Goodwin.

          Overall I don’t know how you fault Shanny when they almost won and kept it a one possession game for the entire game.

          1. The defense was gassed because the offense couldn’t stay on the field. The Seahawks offense did whatever it wanted in the fourth quarter.

            1. due to poor contain on RW…this is an issue that needs expansion…whom would’ve been tasked with “spying’ RW? Which 9er could’ve been consistently getting penetration and occupying the outside areas RW kept running to– to escape the interior pressure we — consistently– got in 4th? He just sprinted outside of AA, Buck, etc.– they could NEVER get a pursuit angle on him…
              Let’s break this issue down after coaches tape study– as well as checking KS’ reasons for not going after SEA DB’s with longer passes. IF we could’ve got RW corralled on the outside– forced him to stay inside his OT’s…we might have pulled out a 3 pt. win
              Hey- where’d my monocle icon go??

        2. Grant:

          Throwing deep against that defense gives you only a 33% chance of making a completion. Statistically those are not good odds. I go with Shanahan. the game plan was fine, the execution was lacking.

    3. Uh… The offensive coordinator calls the play BEFORE the defense sets up, not afterwards. Criticizing Shanahan for not knowing what defense Seattle would be in is not fair. If anything I hate it when we have 2nd and 1 yet fail to convert the first down because we throw it instead of run it down their throat. You have to get first downs against Seattle, game planning for deep pass plays is wishful thinking (although at least one to Goodwin to test Shermin’s hammie early would have been nice). Where was our multi-million dollar FB when we needed him?

  2. Grant, do you think, or have any indication, that head coaching and play calling are having a hard time co-existing. At least in the beginning of the year?

  3. This preseason you predicted the Niners would go 9-7. I think you’re letting that screw with you too much. Obviously, you were wrong. The offense is in dire need of an infusion of talent(thanks Baalke). This year will be a losing season, it’s not about winning games, it’s about finding the positives, evaluating young players, deciding who stays and who goes, and grabbing a high draft pick. Lynchahan took over a roster that may as well have belonged to an expansion team.

    Honestly, you lost me when you said the Niners needed to dictate to the Seahawks. The Seahawks offense is horrendous, but that D is still holding its own. If you really think our players on offense are capable of commanding the Seattle D…then I’d honestly question if you use drugs.

    This is most definitely a total rebuild, if you’re looking at it any other way, you’re wrong.

      1. It’s possible, but I’d say four wins is far more likely. I’m happy with the tremendous strides made on defense even with the multitude of injuries, but if the offense isn’t able to consistently pick it up, then they’ll get worn down as the season goes on. It’s a bright spot for the future though.

        1. The defense ranks 9th in the NFL. The running game ranks second in yards per carry. And the special teams are good. The Niners just need a little more creativity in the passing game and they can win.

          1. Agreed
            Eliminate mistakes and turnovers- which they did against Seattle in Seattle for the most part, not easy to do. Run the ball and convert the 3rd downs the best they can. An improved passing game which is coming will get them / us where we want to go.

            The defense can be as good as the Harbaugh defense. Special teams have been good too.
            they can win

          2. Agreed! Also to add to your point, Grant did you notice that Kyle modified his offense to accommodate Carlos Hyde’s strengths? They’re running inside?
            Defense looks like it’s on track to really get tough especially when Foster returns.
            My guess is that Kyle is just putting things together in the order they should be. Get the run game on track, as the O line seems to be figuring out the run block scheme.
            It may not happen Thursday night but the passing game should include more of his signature play action, passes, and bootlegs… By the time the Arizona game is up this offense should look more functional Brian Hoyer and all…
            There is no way Kyle Shanahan is sleeping at night having gone 2 games without a touchdown. It’s driving him nuts. Look for that to change and soon…

      2. I do agree Grant. But I called 7-9 beginning of year, I am still with it. It’s only week 3 still 13 more games I think shanny will find ways to win, if we have bad QB by week 4 bet cj starts week 5

        1. Earl David Evans

          For as little as it means, I called for a 10 -6 season before half of the team was on the team….I am enthralled with the ongoing evolution of the roster…other than the trades that I have made known as objectionable….I wish that we had held onto Tiller and Theus… .Garnett will never be a quality OG in my opinion….10-6 !!

  4. Grant you are way off on this one. When you don’t have a QB, it limits everything.
    If anyone was scared it was Hoyer and the entire right side of the offensive line.

      1. Well sure if guys can’t catch it and the line can’t hold for more than 5 seconds.
        The Hawks might have the best dline in football. Carolina 2nd.
        That’s 2 very tall orders for a guy like Hoyer

          1. And that’s on Hoyer. He is playing timid. My guess is Shanny has had to dummy dumb the offense because Hoyer sees Ghosts.
            He has been bumped pretty good the last 2 weeks.

      2. Montana and Walsh based the West Coast Offense off of the short pass, so I disagree with you to a point. Grant, I like your blog and believe you have excellent knowledge of the game. Although, unless having coaching experience to a respectable level on a resume it might be more ethical to state or write about your opinions based on experience and use your journalistic skills to fuel a more positive approach.

        Unfortunately we see this more and more with todays journalism heavy on opinion. I for one am going to support the new leadership of the Niners, knowing there will be mistakes.

        1. I disagree. You do not need coaching at a high level to be able to access the game and give draw up successful plays. Matt CCampbel, TJ Fleck, Bill Cowher, Jon Gruden, and Al Davis were all young inexperienced HCs.
          We should be thankful that a reporter is holding the HC accountable.wouldand many other bay area reporters have not. This will only help the team and the coach get better.

            1. Should have been PJ…? Phillip John Fleck (born November 29, 1980) is an American football coach and former player. He is currently the head coach for the Minnesota Golden Gophers football team. He is the former head coach of the Western Michigan Broncos football team. Fleck played as a wide receiver for Northern Illinois University from 1999 to 2003 and with the San Francisco 49ers of the National Football League (NFL) from 2004 to 2005 [Wikipedia].

              1. Yes I know who PJ is, hence why I asked who TJ was.

                Someone needs to do a better job proofreading before hitting enter…and even then in the 5 minutes after when one can edit, re-read what they wrote to make sure it is correct.

      1. If Shanahan was going to scrap an entire off seasom of planning to start over week 3, wouldn’t he just sign RG III who has “familiarity” with his system?

      2. You mean in that by signing Kaep they are a lock for the #1 pick? If thats your goal then that would be the best way to go about it.

        1. Or, we sign Kaep…he starts immediately, and the 9ers go undefeated, only to lose in the SB when he exits with a concussion early in the 2nd quarter after putting 271 yards rushing on the Patriots. During the off season we trade him for a pile of very high draft picks in 2018 and 2019, and a premier center and a quality corner. Coupled with 9er picks already in hand, we draft the team of the future–winning five SBs over a six year period.

          Kaep’s new team finishes 3-13 in 2018 and he’s out of the league by April 2019.

          1. more likely–
            NFL selects a team that’s “rebuilding” —this “chosen” rebuild team gets covert compensation from League FO to play Kap– he flames-out, is benched, maybe played again with same results, benched again, then cut…
            effectively putting out the “Blacklisting” fire in media and removing cred from nascent NFL protests…

    1. Prime Time,
      Trent Brown is on the right side of of the 49ers offensive line. Trust me, I guarantee you nobody on the Hawks roster scares him… The Hawks came up with 2 sacks. Had Brian gotten rid of the ball, or even just threw it away quicker they wouldn’t have gotten that… Hoyer has receivers who aren’t running route properly causing him to have to wait. That will change. Stay tuned.

  5. Grant, still think the Giants are the 3rd best team in the NFL?

    “3. New York Giants. Eli Manning turns 37 in January. Next season may be the Giants’ last opportunity to make a Super-Bowl run with him as their quarterback. They already have an excellent defense — it ranked 2nd in points allowed last season. And they should have an excellent offense after signing wide receiver Brandon Marshall and drafting tight end Evan Engram this offseason. The Giants will win the NFC East and go to the NFC Championship, but won’t go to the Super Bowl.”

          1. Oh totally, I’m sure you’re still right about the Giants. They look like a real sleeper team ready to explode. lol

  6. Sigh… Grant… did you ever think that perhaps Hoyer didn’t pull the trigger? I saw on multiple occasions where he held the ball far too long.

    You let your emotions get the best of you at times in your reporting.

    Goodwin catches two balls thrown his way and it could be a different game. Maybe Hoyer lost confidence in the deep throw because Goodwin couldn’t catch it?

    If this was the 18th game of the Shanahan regime and nothing changed, sure, you can question the play calling. It’s the second game. And considering that Hoyer had a halfway decent game against Carolina where he DID throw the ball deep, I think you calling out Shanahan is extremely far-fetched.

    This reminds me of an argument I have with a friend of mine. He jumps on the “every QB sucks but Young and Montana” bandwagon all the time. He has no patience, wants immediate success. Said Alex Smith was the worst QB ever. Never paid attention to the fact that the kid had 6 OCs in 7 seasons, and no talent around him. Gee, he plays well under Harbaugh AND then goes to KC and plays well with Reid.

    Point is – be patient Grant and don’t let your emotions cloud your reporting.

    1. Shanahan said he called a couple shots early in the game and then stopped calling them because he didn’t trust the pass protection. But that’s not a legitimate reason to abandon the deep passing game, as I explained in this post.

      1. “Shanahan said he called a couple shots early in the game and then stopped calling them because he didn’t trust the pass protection.”

        That is false. This is what he said.

        “We had a couple shots early and the protection didn’t hold up, and it’s basically what they are giving to you.”

        He never said he quit calling deep balls. He said they had a couple of shots early. That means the deep ball was only there twice in the whole game. You only get a few chances, if any, to go deep in an NFL game.

        You can’t say for sure that Shanny only called two deep balls. I mentioned earlier how you did the same kind of thing in the preseason until Shanny proved you wrong.

        Instead of learning from your previous mistake, you did it again today. First you said Shanny didn’t call any deep balls against Seattle. Shanny corrected you again. Now you are misrepresenting what Shanny said.

        1. I said Hoyer didn’t throw longer than 20 yards.

          “We had a couple of shots early and the protection didn’t hold up, and it’s basically what they are giving you,” means he called a couple of shot plays early, then took what the defense gave him the rest of the game, which was five-yard passes.

          1. He never said he quit calling deep balls. He went on to explain that you don’t just call deep balls. You call plays that may have short, intermediate, and deep routes, He said. “You just don’t call plays that say go deep or go short.” You take what the defense gives you. That means if there’s a deep route and it’s covered, you don’t try to force it. The only true deep ball play calls are ones that have every receiver going deep like a hail mary.

            1. I love how people get so upset when they hear someone says something like” We were just taking what the defense was giving us.” Thinking that the offense is not “dictating the flow of the game.”
              However, when saying this they are also saying “this defense is designed to stop “x” but is not as good as stopping “y”… if we run “y” successfully often enough we will force them out of this defense.

              With that said, I also agree that occasionally the niners need to take the occasional (even forced) deep shots just to keep the defense honest, and open up other opportunities. But some of this is also on the Qb to judge when the risk is worth the reward. Weather also plays a factor in this, Wilson threw the ball down the field a few times and was wildly inaccurate (The rain may have played a factor in this), unfortunately the 49ers D wasn’t able to capitalize on these mistakes.

              I would also state that we don’t know how many deeper patterns the 49ers ran in the game without the benefit of the all 22 film. There may have been times when routes were called but the qb didn’t have time, or threw the ball before the player/players running the deeper route/s put the defender in a quandary.

              This is a classic case of a snap judgement being made without the necessary research being done first. Perhaps Grant and others are correct, but the fact remains that these judgements were made with minimal information and are little better than guesses.

              1. “This is a classic case of a snap judgement being made without the necessary research being done first. Perhaps Grant and others are correct, but the fact remains that these judgements were made with minimal information and are little better than guesses.”

                Bingo.

              2. If you have the talent, you can dictate what the opposing team has to do. The 49ers just don’t have enough talent on offense to be able to dictate to defenses like Carolina and Seattle. Let’s see what happens against some of the middle-of-the-road teams. Pierre Garcon is a good receiver but he doesn’t keep DCs awake at night. Other than him, the rest are unproven. If Hyde can keep it up and stays injury free, the 49ers will need to re-sign him.

                This team needs to turn over the whole offensive line next year. Sign a couple of FA OL and then draft at least two more in the first 2-3 rounds. Staley only has 1 or 2 decent years left. His replacement has to be found soon and groomed for the job. Help is needed at other positions like CB, LB, QB, and WR, but until the OL is solidified this team isn’t going anywhere. 9-7 is a pipe dream. Besides, it would be better to win fewer games and have a better draft position.

              3. When throwing 9 routes on the outside, you don’t have to release 5 in the pattern or go to an empty set. It is easy to do with just a “two-men out” concept (people passes) and allow each receiver the option to break off the route at 12 or 13 yards to a “stop” concept if he cannot catch the DB. If even with the DB, follow the simple rule of, “If I’m even, I’m leavin’. ” It only takes a 3 and 2 drop with a reset from under Center to get the ball out. It’s even easier from the gun. I remember Jim Kelly of the Bills in the “K Gun” throwing a 12-yard out to his left vs. the Denver Broncos, and nobody on the Bills blocked the Nickel backer who came uncontested from the left edge of the offense, and that dogging DB never laid a hand on Kelly, and the ball was gone and it was a completion, too. I think Bill Walsh in his first year as the Niners head coach had the 4th ranked pass offense, and he had Steve DeBerg and a few other rejects at QB. Personally, I don’t want a coach to stand there at the podium and say, “we couldn’t get it done because of……….” If a coach knows football rather than just a system, he can figure out a way!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why he is getting the big bucks and a 6-year contract!!!!!!! Find a way!!!!!!!!! You are a football coach not a system coach…….if the system breaks down, you are supposed to be able to fix it if you know football……look at how Belichick gets these waiver wire guys to play when his starters get hurt. He wins without Gronk, without Amendola, without Eddleman, etc. Granted he has Brady, but Brady still has to have guys to whom he can throw it and who can catch it. Tough to win with Goodwin at WR when he is playing like Jimmy “Oops” Hines and Renaldo Nehemiah……..all of whom would probably drop the baton pass in a 400 relay!!!!!!!

              4. mike,

                That’s fine and I agree about making adjustments. But that is not what Grant and I were talking about in this particular part of the thread.

                Grant falsely claimed that Shanahan quit calling deep balls. Grant cannot prove this to be true.

                Grant: QB Brian Hoyer didn’t throw any passes longer than 20 yards and he threw only two passes longer than 10 yards. Why so few long throws? Was that the game plan?

                So, Grant’s questions were “Why so few long throws? Was that the game plan?”

                Kyle’s answer, “No…”

                Kyle never said he quit calling deep passes. He said there weren’t any deep passes to be made. Kyle and I explained this yesterday. You don’t have plays that say go deep or short. You have plays with multtiple route combinations that can be long, short, and medium. The long route can be the first read, but if it’s covered, the QB isn’t likely to throw it.

                Grant doesn’t know that Shanny quit calling plays with deep routes. He is being dishonest.

              5. Grant didn’t even ask if Shanny quit calling plays with deep passes. Had he asked the right question, we would know for sure if Kyle quit calling deep passes. We wouldn’t have to assume anything about what Kyle said.

                Grant asked the wrong question.

              6. Kyle said quite clearly that he called two shots early and then decided the protection couldn’t hold up to call more shots.

              7. “Kyle said quite clearly that he called two shots early and then decided the protection couldn’t hold up to call more shots.”

                Find those exact words. He said they had a couple of shots early. not that he called two shots early and then decided the protection couldn’t hold up to call more shots.

                You never specifically asked him if he quit calling deep passes. You asked why a QB didn’t go deep. Kyle had to explain to you that going deep is a low percentage play, especially against a team like Seattle.

              8. He said the protection didn’t hold up and he didn’t feel comfortable throwing deep balls after that because they would have led to sacks and turnovers.

              9. “…so he took what the defense gave him.”

                Kyle said, “..Then it was basically what they are giving to you.”

                He didn’t say what the defense gave him as a play caller. He said his QB didn’t have any deep plays to make. Again, he answered your question about Hoyer going deep. It was not even a question about his play calling.

              10. He clearly implied Seattle’s pass rush took away the deep pass and forced Shanahan to take what was given, which were short, quick throws.

  7. By saying the Seahawks were dictating to the Niners, it is essentially saying the Niners were shaped by their opponent.
    .
    I whole heartedly agree, just like the Panthers shaped the Niners into abandoning the run.
    .
    Yes, they needed deep drops to let the QB buy time so the receivers can get down field. And yes, the fierce pass rush negated that. One option would have been to put the TE in motion, so he could pinch in the DE, so Hoyer could roll out. By rolling out, he could buy time so the receivers could get down field.
    .
    I like the 4 deep concept, because if they are playing a 3 deep zone, one of those 4 should be open.
    .
    The Rams will copy the Seahawks, stack the box, and dare the Niners to pass. Niners should counter that by spreading them out wide, then attack the edges.

          1. Speaking of Kaep, I sure am glad Lynch has left the door open for his return. Even though he has not thrown a pass in TC or the preseason, Kaep could start and do well.
            .
            Sure, they should keep it simple until he masters the playbook, but running the read option requires making decisions on the field. Kaep would do best by letting him become the field general, and allow him to call his own plays so he can run the hurry up so it would keep the defense from substituting. Of course, he would have 25 scripted plays as an outline to follow, but I hope it would be flexible, and dependent on down and distance.
            .
            With Kaep at the helm, KS could implement controlled rollouts and naked bootlegs. The defense would have to defend both the strong side and the weak side, along with the entire field, because Kaep has a strong enough arm to cover the entire field.
            .
            Kaep, being a dual threat, will make KS’s scheme work. Sure, at times, he should deliver the ball from the pocket, but the run option will make the defense defend both the run and pass. If they assign a spy on Kaep, that is playing into the Niner’s hand, because that means one less defender for the rest of the squad.
            ,
            Thanks for bringing up Kaep again, so I can expound more on the subject. Maybe you should take your own advice and start ignoring my posts.

            1. Kaep has a strong enough arm to cover the entire field.

              He sure does. He can boink Niners sideline staff in the head from near the opposition’s sideline.

    1. “By saying the Seahawks were dictating to the Niners, it is essentially saying the Niners were shaped by their opponent.”
      Or they are saying they are not running into the teeth of the defense?

  8. Hoyer is a stop gap. He did pretty decently for awhile when he was at Cleveland with Shanahan. I am disappointed too. But I had to remember he’s been with 6 teams in 7 years and he will never be the guy. That said, I think the offense can improve and will, starting Thursday.

    1. Short week games focus more on running the ball. Thursday games showcase low scoring defensive battles. Week 1 Thursday games excluded where Teams have all off season to prep.
      This will be a ground game attacking show like every thursday game is in the NFL.

  9. Grant, I agree with your assessment of the deep ball. Also there were too many 3rd and longs where we called slants and 3 yard outs that had very little to no chance at success. Finally where is the OW?? Yes, the blocking has been very good but I was watching his highlights from last year and I’m in shock he doesn’t get a target! Your thoughts?

  10. Niners need to stop defeating themselves. The Goodwin drops were very apparent, but there were 2 other plays that had me shaking my head.
    .
    One was the time KW got a hand on the ball, and deflected it away from RR, who had a possible pick six. They needed to communicate better, and I think RR was bending KW’s ear for a while.
    .
    The second was during the TD play. Looked like Eli Harold had a bead on RW for a sack. Instead, AA burst through the middle and prevented EH from tackling RW.

    1. This sounds like a lot of talk from someone who has only played Madden.

      In the heat of the moment, the noise on the field, eyes looking at the ball/runner, its not like you can hear someone behind you (put on a helmet and see how it impairs your hearing).

      1. I am making observations as a fan who has replay. KW did deflect the ball, and RR seemed pretty upset.
        .
        If RR had intercepted the ball, or Harold made the sack, the Niners MAY have won.
        .
        Hope you do not disagree with me about the Goodwin drops.

        1. Exactly, you are making an assumption from 1000k miles away…

          You ever see when QBs are receiving plays from their coaches and covering the ear holes on the helmet to try and hear better? They have a speaker INSIDE the helmet and have issues hearing, but somehow you think that a player is going to hear a guy yelling at him from behind to not deflect the ball…heck no, thats ridiculous.

          Both plays the guys were going off instinct. You’d be yelling at him for not trying to deflect it if there was a receiver behind him and he let the ball go past…right?

    1. It’s in the playbook for certain. The tricky part is throwing at wet football accurately at a player who is on his way to being one of the best free safeties ever.

  11. Grant… So no concern starting a new left guard, who has been on the team for two weeks, plus we are playing in all places Seattle? I think the design was for small success with the passing game, then take your shots. I think you’re the type of guys that finds a 20 dollar bill and says, I will leave it because I know there will be a 50 dollar bill around here. Another words, take what the defense gives you but keep moving the chains… execution is the key.

    1. Many here are missing the incredible opportunity this blog affords. Through Grant you have access to THE NFL HC of your team. If you can influence or make a valid argument here you can shape the perception of this coach. How often did we want Kelly held accountable for his offense?
      Instead, you’re taking shots at Grant. The 49ers do not need another MM. Grant is an antagonist amd we have a rare opportunity to capitalize that. Grant has shown he is willing to listen and take our questions to the HC.
      If youre upset about the lack of production blame yourselves for not influencing the HC like Grant here through accountability.

  12. The Intentional Grounding call…what happened on that one? Was it a deep ballcall? Or maybe just looked deeper than it was since crossfield throw?

  13. Sign Kaep. They’re in need of a burger flipper in the concession stand behind section 209. Of course, he’ll only be able to cook and flip one burger at a time and only use the right side of the grill. When it’s done, he’ll miss the bun and the burger will hit the ground.

    1. Kaep could flip burgers, but he could also quarterback the team.
      .
      Jed just needs to grow up and show some huevos. Being afraid of a mean tweet is not a profile in courage.
      .
      Of course, first of all, he needs to prefer the player over the suit, because suits are a dime a dozen, but a SB QB is as precious as rubies.
      .
      Maybe Denise could pull a moonstruck; slap Jed, and tell him to snap out of it. She should make Jed fulfill his promises. Jed DID say that he would do every thing in his power to help the team win. Signing Kaep would go a long way to fulfilling his promise, because Hoyer is not the answer. Continuing to start Hoyer is an admission that they will be content to lose.

      1. How many wins did he get last year, your wonder boy who you said would get them to the playoffs? You forget you said that last year, don’t you? One measly win! Yes, I know… someone else’s fault but you don’t say that until after he fails to deliver on your lofty promises.

      2. Sebbie… How many SB rings does Kaep have? Zero. Four attempts at the five yard line? Zip.

        How many rings does Dilfer have? Brad Johnson? Jeff Hostetler?

      3. Sebbie… Remember that you demanded the Yorks bring Tomsula and Chip back after they were axed–to fulfill promises and build good will. Oh, and Hayne too.

        Speaking of profiles, you’re a profile in delusion.

        Kaep ain’t comin’ back Sebbie.

  14. You know what else is a losing formula Grant? Pretending you know more about offensive play calling than Kyle Shanahan.

    This blog is nepotism at its finest. Do you and Jed York hang out and talk about getting un-earned careers from your parents?

    1. Grant did not get handed this job like Jed did with the Niners. He earned it by working hard and writing about the Niners in such a way that I consider it a must read. I could be rosily scenariode by reading from many other blog sites, but I am tired of the same old, same old. Grant is insightful and refreshing.
      .
      KS is such a genius, he has sent out a journeyman QB 21 times, and has yet to score a TD. I bet even Joan in accounting could do a better job, because she at least knows the bottom line.

      1. Sebbie… Your Shanahan hate is showing again–all wrapped up in your pining away for Kaep, and Shanahan isn’t bringing Kaep back.

        1. Cassie, I do not hate KS at all. I want him to win, so I am making suggestions for him to do that.
          .
          KS has to realize that he cannot do it all, and needs all the help he can get.
          .
          KS has anointed Hoyer the starter, but after 2 games, Hoyer is hurting the team’s chances to win. This is just like last season with Gabbert. I rooted for Gabbert to succeed, but he just benched himself.
          .
          KS needs to make honest assessments, and realize that Hoyer is pulling a Gabbert. The sooner he can make adjustments, the sooner the Niners can start winning.
          .
          Texans did that with Savage, and now Eli, Dalton and Palmer may force their teams to be faced with making those hard decisions.
          .
          Your hatred of Kaep is understandable, because you are a Baalke, and Trent Baalke HATED Kaep.

              1. I rooted for Gabbert because I wanted the Niners to win, no matter who the QB was. I did not bench Gabbert, he benched himself. I did not expect Kaep to play, because I thought he would get the RGIII treatment.
                .
                I will root for Hoyer to win this next game. I can hope for the best, but pardon me for expecting the worst, because that is how the Niners have been going, lately.

      2. Actually Jed went to the University of Notre Dame and got into the family business…its not like his dad was the GM and hired him on as the coach, this is their family owned business.

      3. You’re on a whole different level of delusional if you think Grant Cohn is a good writer with quality insight. Your opinions now have zero credibility.

        Grant is a hack who got his job because of his Dad. He survives purely by stirring the pot, like many of the hack writers in today’s age of social media. The only difference between him and an unpaid, crappy Bleacher Report writer is his family connections. I feel bad for you that you look to this guy for quality content. Its sad that some people dont know crap content when they read it.

        Go read a Peter King article, and compare it to one of Grant’s. You may not agree with King’s opinions, but at least its well written.

    2. Grant is asking hard questions to a coach that dances well for a team that has 12 points/no td’s in 2 games. Shanny’s excuses game after game will get old fast. It’s a rebuild and yes Hoyer is a bridge qb that’s bad but I think maybe Shanny is a little timid in play calling. He may need an OC sooner than later now that he’s a HC for the first time. There’s need for patience for a bad team but Grant is confident in his opinions and is right on his breakdowns and that can rub some people the wrong way. Too bad.

      1. Yeah and might mention it is only 2 games into the season. Hoyer isn’t going to suddenly become a good QB either. They need to give Beathard more reps in practice and throw him in periodically and see how he does. Pretty sure he will handle the pass rush better than Hoyer.

        1. Like I said, there’s need for patience, Hoyer’s not a good qb, no kidding it’s 2 games but no offense so far and some questionable or conservative play calling, ect.

          Not expecting Hoyer to suddenly get good, he is what he is. He’s been around and everybody knows what he can do but maybe more games will help him but he’s not new to KS system. Maybe KS needs to delegate the offense to an OC, maybe not, lets see but the same old excuses will get old fast, ect. Maybe play Beathard a bit and see how he does soon if Hoyer plays the same. Shanny better let Hoyer open it up and pass deep to not get predictable and conservative. Yeah it’s 2 games.

          1. If Shanahan decides to hire an OC, he’ll still be doing the play calling. He’ll just have the OC handle more of the details of the job.

              1. People are infatuated with the name. A true OC calls the plays otherwise he’s an assistant with a title that means nothing.
                Think Assistant Head Coach, it’s another bogus title usually given to justify stealing a position coach and give them a pay rise.

  15. Slippery wet football. Not really the best time to thrown the deep ball. No problem with the overall game plan. Big difference was the qb on the other side of the field. I am not a big fan of throwing a 3 yard pass when you need 9 for a first down. Does not work againts good d’s.

  16. Coach will Fry his defense for his non existent offense like Chip Kelly and coach before him.
    More injuries come soon because Defense is playing for all 60 minutes . Where is your Offensive mind?

  17. Brian Hoyer vs seattles secondary?… Really? Grant really?.. you think that’s a smart idea the bottom line is he called a game that gave them a chance to win at the end unfortunately the QB isn’t up to par. The teams in good hands we just need a QB that can throw the ball I know that’s easier said then done but I have faith that they will find the right guy to lead the team.

    1. Exactly ! Hoyer proved he can not play when pressured. They need to throw Beathard in the mix especially when the field shortens up. Hoyer crumbles, and I think Beathard would be more willing to take a hit which would give them a little more time to let a play develop. As it is right now there is very little chance of some one even being able to get deep before he folds or throws it away.

      1. Think you are dismissing the power of CenturyLink. That is a brutal place to play as a visitor in general let alone your first time there.

  18. Some context on going deep against Seattle last year when Earl Thomas played.

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2016/film-room-earl-thomas

    “From Weeks 1 to 11 this season, the Seahawks surrendered completions on just two of 12 attempts that travelled 16 or more yards deep over the middle of the field, for a total of 53 yards.”

    This proves that throwing deep over the middle against Seattle is a low percentage play. It also proves that Shanny isn’t the HC or OC that thinks throwing deep against Seattle is unwise.

    But, but, look off the S.

    “Newton began the play looking to his left, attempting to hold Thomas on that side of the field. Against most safeties, Netwon’s eye discipline here would have been enough to create a throwing lane. But even with his eye discipline and an arm strength that can rival any other quarterback’s, Newton couldn’t beat Thomas with the ball. Thomas’ range and intelligence allowed him to undercut the pass.”

  19. More.

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/film-room/2016/film-room-earl-thomas

    “Pete Carroll’s defense is both rigid and fluid. It’s rigid because it primarily runs Cover-3, but it’s fluid because that Cover-3 is designed to adjust to what the offense does on every single snap. It’s a principle called pattern matching. Carroll describes pattern matching in his own words as “a principle of understanding what the routes are and the combinations that happen and working with guys to their drops accordingly. We play off of the cues that you get from the offense. So you’re matching up your drops based on what we’re doing.” This controlled freedom that Carroll gives his players stresses their studying habits and acumen, but it allows them to play so much Cover-3 without letting the offense pick them apart easily.”

  20. https://www.fieldgulls.com/football-breakdowns/2014/9/12/6138287/seahawks-couter-the-coutner-cover-three-vs-four-verts

    “In the weeks between the NFC Championship game and the Super Bowl, you may remember an overconfident bunch of Broncos fans who had solved the Seahawks defense. It’s simple, they said. The way to beat Seattle’s cover three is with four verts.”

    “Four verticals against 3 deep coverage is going to ensure some one-on-ones’. If you load one side of the formation with three receivers, it might also pull the FS playside, opening up the possibility of the post on the backside. It puts the FS in spots where he will have to choose precisely which man to take.”

    “As we saw, four verts didn’t create quite the mismatch tha Broncos fans were hoping for.”

    1. Continued.

      “Lets take a look at some examples of Green Bay running four verts in week 1.”

      “Seattle is doing a couple things on this play. First, they get pressure.”

      “Second, Seattle is playing Earl Thomas about 17 yards off the line of scrimmage. You can see him here as he breaks on a route from the slot receiver. Thomas effectively kills two of the go routes by staying so far over he top.”

  21. Fair enough Grant, but you do realize with Hoyer QBing that it is far from a sure hit if yuh go deep. Goodwin can’t catch anything and Sherman even banged up is a dangerous corner if you throw his direction. How about we give them a couple more game’s to jell and maybe throw Beathard in the mix when inside the 30 ???

  22. This is the best offensive mind in football? Calling the dumbest plays on third down 10yards short of the marker? Come on man Hoyer isn’t incompetent he’s decent he can move the ball. It’s like Shanahan has zero confidence in him or he’s coaching scared.

  23. I suspect he thought his best chance to win was running and throwing short. Perhaps a turnover that resulted in points. If you are going into CenturyLink and the odds of winning are stacked against you, why not go down to defeat aggressively? I Like the way Bruce Arians plays at CenturyLink..

  24. The thing I don’t like about Shanahan’s response is the either/or nature of it.

    If you sit back and try to make a living in Seattle versus that pass rush of dropping back deep and just trying to throw deep balls, they are going to lead to a lot more sacks and turnovers than you are deep plays.

    No one is suggesting that you throw 20 bombs a game and hope you connect on 1 or 2. Throw some deep balls when you see a coverage that might exploit the deep pass. Even if you don’t hit it, the deep attempt may open up the shorter range passes. The 49ers didn’t even try a deep pass in the Seahawks game.

    Having said that, Grant – dude, you need to find a balance between being critical of coaches and trying to make yourself sound like the smartest guy in the room. I’m sure you’re absolutely brilliant but Kyle Shanahan and the 49er coaches know more about football than you. I can guarantee it.

    1. make yourself sound like the smartest guy in the room.

      Without sounding generational here (oh hell, yes I will), Grant suffers a disease that afflicts a lot of millennials. They are so sure they are the first ones to discover the neat thing they just discovered.

      1. Ha! I can relate to that. I’ve worked a long time with millennials and even the next generation in line. Many can become so arrogant and self-righteous in their command of insight and all things knowable. It’s not limited to this particular time in history…it’s just so funny and mind numbing. I’m sure more than one uppity young Neanderthal learned the hard way when confronted by a rather large, angry beast.

      2. Yeah, I think that’s true about Millennials. I will say though, that as a young man I had many instances where I thought I was the smartest guy in the room only to have a few old timers remind me they knew more than me. I think young people have their view of the world and are full of pi$$ & vinegar and ambition. People in my generation seemed to finally accept that our elders had something to offer more than Millennials seem to accept it today. I find Millennials to be obnoxious and exhausting – Just like I USED to be. : )

        1. Us old timers are smarter than these “millennials” because we have history to draw on. That’s the biggest difference here.

          1. as does EVERY older generation vs. a new one. Move on guys…nothing to see here…Houston should have been more blatant in his point on this one….let’s see — older guys on football blog kvetching about younger generation hubris…and– drawing on history no longer working thanks to wikipedia, etc.
            but I can’t “F”ing stand commuting on the same roads as Uber/Lyft drivers….can’t bloody wait for self driving cars…there’ll be some major lawsuits soon about these Lyft/Uber drivers causing carnage– mark my words.

            1. Tjf, the difference is that the generation of today has been given a platform (by the previous generations) to loudly proclaim their superior knowledge. Maybe previous generations had their “don’t trust anyone over 30” moment, you had to dig to find its dissemination.

              Btw, I think “self-driving” cars will be the things overwhelmingly driving lawsuits from future self-driving ambulance chasers.

              1. no need for ambulance chasers, these cars will have 360 deg. video setup as a “black box” for legal challenges of driver fault. Driving regs will be tightened for all drivers too- esp. in CA.
                Add ubiquitous camera coverage being added to N.Cal. due to driver safety…Insurance companies will either love this– or be driven out of auto coverage market.
                CA regs being tightened (and later thru rest of USA) means Uber/Lyft drivers won’t pass new driving competency tests demanded by new driving reality…thus weeding out the HUGE pool of neophyte drivers needing xtra $$- thus removing a major driving hazard (at least in SF Bay Area)
                why else would Lyft & Uber be heavy into A.I. driving tech….the weak spot in their business models are the drivers they’re forced to employ…

    2. “No one is suggesting that you throw 20 bombs a game and hope you connect on 1 or 2. Throw some deep balls when you see a coverage that might exploit the deep pass. Even if you don’t hit it, the deep attempt may open up the shorter range passes. The 49ers didn’t even try a deep pass in the Seahawks game.” Exactly..

      But this also weakens your argument that guaranteed, Shanny knows more than Grant. Kyle either does but was too afraid or lacked confidence to try or he simply does not think he can beat Seattle throwing it deep..

  25. You can’t dictate the game to a team like Seattle unless you have the right players, especially in the red zone area. The Hawks’ CBs are very good at jamming the receivers at the line and their pass rushers are just too good. The QB probably has only 2 1/2 seconds window to release the ball.

  26. If someone had told us that the 49ers would be leading going into the 4th quarter and were within a FG of winning the game at the end…… I think we would have all taken it. Every day and twice on Sunday! I love the fact that they aren’t looking at it as a moral victory either.

  27. Out of 12 games that Alex Smith played against Seattle, Smith won 7 and lost 5.

    How many games that Kap has won against Seattle ? 1 out of 5 !

    What did Smith in those games ? Ding !

    1. Bengals players think they want CK over Dalton, and their backup; at least per Florio (eye roll.)
      1/ I wonder how Sebby will like southern Ohio…?
      2/ I wonder how Nessa will blend in Cincinnati? I’m sure she’ll adore it there since it’s so much like Manhatten.
      3/ Bengals’ players should be careful what they wish for…………..one-hoppers to AJ Green, lock on receivers, hold the ball too long, break the pocket too soon………….
      4/ Kap will need to digest a new system and verbiage with no OTAs, MiniCamp, TC, or repetition chemistry & timing with unknown receivers behind a quite suspect OL, and the OC is a Plan-B guy who the offensive players don’t have confidence in. What could go wrong? Good thing for Kap he was patient, turned down the back up jobs where he could’ve learned the system and be ready to thrive if/when he got his chance. Brilliant.

      1. From the Dayton Daily News…

        “Even if the Pro Football Talk report is accurate, which is debatable, the Cincinnati Bengals are not going to acquiesce to the alleged wishes of a couple players and sign Colin Kaepernick.

        The PFT report said that if Bengals starting quarterback Andy Dalton continues to struggle, “there’s a feeling among some of the players that the Bengals should go off the board and consider bringing in Colin Kaepernick.”

        Because that’s parsed as third-party hearsay rather than a direct comment from an anonymous source, it’s doubtful PFT talked to a single player in the locker room, which should throw a shroud of skepticism on the report.

        But even if you want to play along and believe it’s true, the Cincinnati Bengals are not going to sign Kaepernick.

        Such a move would defy common sense, football sense and business sense, and it has nothing to do with Kaepernick’s political views.

        Not only is Dalton under contract through 2020, the Bengals have a quality backup in AJ McCarron. And for the second year in a row they took the rare step of keeping a third quarterback on the 53-man roster. That third quarterback, Jeff Driskel, has a similar skill set to Kaepernick with the ability to make plays with his feet, plus he has a stronger arm is and is five years younger.

        While Driskel is currently injured, the idea that the Bengals would bring in a quarterback off the street who has no knowledge of the offense and is 2-16 in his last 18 starts and move him ahead of McCarron is ludicrous.”

      2. I think Sebbie–if he’s true to his convictions–should get on a few Bengal fan blogs and begin lobbying for his heartthrob. I’m confident the Bengals GM and coaching staff will read every Sebbie post because he’s acknowledged across America as THE premier football savant.

      3. Naw, I want Kaep back at the Niners, because he would do well here. Dalton may get benched for McCarron, which would be the logical move.
        .
        Even without playing a snap so far this season, Kaep would be an upgrade to Hoyer. After getting bludgeoned by the Seahawks, Hoyer may be showing signs of being concussed, because he was hit so hard, it ripped his helmet off. Playing after only 3 days of rest may show that Hoyer needs to go into the concussion protocols, especially if his timing is off and his reactions are slowed down, after some more massive hits.
        .
        Kaep is being smart. He did not want to get the RGIII treatment, and be forced to sit on the side lines with no chance to play.
        .
        Kaep will get an opportunity to start, because the present QBs are not excelling, and attrition will start becoming a factor. If the Niners truly want to win, they should sign Kaep. The NFC West is up for grabs. With Hoyer, if he lasts all season, they may win 5 or 6 games. With Kaep, they may win the West and squeak into the playoffs.

    2. How many games that Kap has won against Seattle ? 1 out of 5 !

      Nah, he had more chances than that. 2 out of 9. Going by that, “bring back Kaep” would maybe net us 1 win against Seattle the next 2 seasons. Probably a meaningless late season game next year.

      1. Last time they played, Kaep only lost 25-23, so he is not that far off from winning. With better support, he will do just fine.

        1. Sebbie… Yup, not that far off… Super Bowl–four tries from the five yard line–not that far off.

          Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Always the excuse.

            1. Did I tell you that Hoyer threw like the defenders were the intended receivers, 4 times in Hoyer’s only playoff game?
              .
              Looks like Hoyer did it again with Kuechly and Wagner.

              1. Nope. We are realistic. You however think that Kap can deliver on something he already proved he couldn’t. That’s a major difference.

                You don’t see anyone here saying how bad Cleveland was and that suddenly Hoyer will bring great wins. You seem to think that Kap is a savior he isn’t. He’s a false messiah. Move on.

              2. Yet ANOTHER straw man argument from Seb-skov…………nobody ever said Hoyer was the answer.

                You think about that, Seb…….

  28. Against the panthers, Cohn writes:

    “Shanahan never should have called an outside-zone run that went toward Short in the first place.”

    Against the Seahawks:

    “I don’t buy Shanahan’s explanation. He basically said he conceded to the Seahawks by taking what they were giving. He played into their game plan rather than dictating to them”

    Talking out of both sides of his mouth.

  29. 49erswebzone needs to filter out your rubbish articles, because every time i click on one and read any little bit of it, I feel as though I’ve wasted a part of my life. I don’t see anyone giving you a job as an OC or HC.

        1. George, I was just throwing his own words back in his face.
          .
          Factually, we are all spending time on this blog site, and are not getting paid for it (except Grant)
          .
          Pretentious? Well, I have been called worse…..;p

    1. +1. That was the need. Even with Tartt, Ward and Reid here, Adams comes in and instantly makes that secondary legit. So disappointed in the Thomas pick and the fact they never got a legit QB to groom this year.
      Jimmy G next year!

      1. They got a legit QB to groom in CJ… Even if he doesn’t work out you don’t take an average prospect at 2 in Trubrisky when you are rebuilding. ESPECIALLY when in 2018 there are probably 5-6 QBs that are all better… ITS NOT ABOUT THIS YEAR……

        1. CBJ is not a legit pick to be a NFL starter for probably another 2-3 years.
          The 49ers if waiting for the 2018 class are now 2 years behind in getting a QB, which I remind you is the most important position in football.
          Sure its not about this year, but its about being competitive and right now the 49ers are a QB away from being competitive. If they drafted Trubisky last year he would have had this entire year to sit and learn. Then next year he would be our starter. He was the most accurate QB in the draft. Thomas is a run stuffing tackle who could have been found in rounds 5-7, not 3rd overall.

          1. CJ will play this year first of all. Second of all I will not question what QB Kyle chooses to groom or to pursue. He clearly had no interest in Trubrisky. That’s a bad sign for him. Thomas only a run stopper LOL…. Okay man you lost me there… He is a disruptive D lineman who will be consistently in the backfield. It just shows how little you know when you make ridiculous comments like that. You going to look awfully stupid as the season continues.

            1. If CBJ plays this year that will mean the 49ers have not won a game and its week 12 and they have given up or Hoyers been hurt.
              So if you are making predictions that CBJ will play, Id like to know what scenario that entails?

              As for Thomas, he is a disruptive dlinemen? 3 tackles in 2 games. That’s disruptive or am I being ridiculous?

              1. The plan all along was to have CJ sit probably 6-8 games pending how Hoyer does. Now if we lose to the Rams it will be closer to 6 games. Kyle compares CJ to Cousins coming out. I think he will be much better then people think. He took him in the third rnd for a reason. He has stated he was the only QB he liked in that draft. Now he might just like him for becoming a soild back up going forward like Hoyer. If that’s the case they will pursue Cousins if he becomes available or JG in free agency. If they have a top 3 pick they go QB…. If they get Cousins there pick could become very valuable to someone… A lot to get excited about. Definitely way way too early to declare Thomas a reach… He is 21 years old and missed almost the whole off season… Just give it a little time.

              2. I’m not saying Thomas is a bust, I’m saying Thomas was not a need. My concern is they never addressed the QB position this past off season effectively. Or the secondary.

                Lets be honest, CBJ is a project. He is not ready to be a NFL starter. He had a couple good pre-season games but not enough to say he will be ready to lead in 4-6 more games.

                Now I’m all in on Jimmy G being signed this offseason. But waiting to draft a QB next year cause its a good QB class, is mere speculation. None of those guys are guaranteed to be good. Its like fantasy football, its all just projections.

              3. How much is CJ really a project? He won the back up job as a rookie. A complex system to learn as well. I saw a kid who looked very poised playing with back ups. The only way for QBs to continue to progress is to eventually play. Now it’s nice that he gets to sit more at this stage. There is no need to rush him. I’m looking forward to watching him play. I think he surprises people.

    2. Too early to say Lynch blew it but the early returns suggest you are 100% correct in your assessment. Hate to admit it because I didn’t want a Safety but Adams would have been a huge improvement for this D.

        1. That’s the beauty of playing armchair coaches and GMs. Make decisive pronouncements based on “noise” (a couple of games, or half a season) and then reappear when a few of those predictions turn out to be true. The job of the GM is to draft for the 2-3 seasons down the road, while using free agency to fill current needs. Seems to me that’s what Lynch did.

          1. That’s exactly what he did, and what I really find comical, is that they have convinced themselves that their knowledge is greater than the ones making the decisions, and then have the unmitigated audacity to advertise such a belief, with the assumption it should be taken seriously….

            1. “That’s exactly what he did, and what I really find comical, is that they have convinced themselves that their knowledge is greater than the ones making the decisions”

              So I guess all NFL GM’s and executives never make mistakes or miss on players?

              You anointed him as a King before he played a down and to date he has made 3 tackles in 2 games. So sorry for the overreaction but as they say, the proof is in the jello! Ha!

            2. For the record, I’m not a priest, so I’m not qualified to anoint anyone. I give nicknames to players, and it’s my contention that you’re living proof Eucktards really do exist. With respect to you assertion they’ve made a mistake on King Solomon, your premature as usual. Trubiscuit, next 10 years franchise is not a nickname. It’s an absurd proclamation based on the information we have at hand. Shanny obviously disagreed with you, Primnocchio….

              1. You are not a priest and don’t anoint, but you classify players as elite before seeing a true body of work? I think that makes you a little child or ignorant. Which one are you?

              2. Primnocchio says, “…a child with no ability to conjure up a relevant thought”.

                That’s the first step in recovery, realizing your problem, and then voicing it to the group. Proud of you, Primenocchio….

              3. That’s because you’re having an auditory hallucination, a common psychotic disorder known as schizophrenia….

          1. He was drafted because he had the potential to become an All Pro player. He has the skill set to get to the passer, but he also happened to fill a huge priority on day one. Stacking the odds of not finishing last against the run, and setting anymore franchise records….

            1. To me more than that…it is the Intangibles…like his “Character”.

              I know Character doesn’t count for much these days and it definitely won’t win football games :), but I like the way the kid answers reporters with “Sir”.

              I’m a millennial, but I say let us give him some time before judging! We can judge him in the 2018 training camp IMHO.

            2. No question, Faith+9er, character was a big factor, as well as constitution. He was healthy, and durable, with no known surgeries, which was weirdly rare for the top 10 prospects in that draft. When you consider all the traits we’ve listed in their totality, it became apparent to me that he was the obvious choice, given there was no quarterback worth taking that high….

              1. True that! Case in point – Myles Garrett, Corey Davis, John Ross & Mike Williams who have all missed games so far.

                Also, with solid character, at least he won’t turn out like Aldon Smith. :)

    3. I respectfully disagree. They did not draft Adams, because they felt that Ward would become the starter. Now that Ward is finally healthy, he will justify their belief in him.
      .
      The game is won in the trenches, and King Solomon will get better as the season progresses.

        1. I am being patient, and supported Hoyer, just like I supported Gabbert.
          .
          However, both Gabbert and Hoyer are showing why they lost their jobs before. Kaep lost his job due to injury, and now is being prevented from playing because he is being blackballed.
          .
          I still have hope because Lynch is smart, and really wants to win. If Lynch acts boldly, the Niners may even get to the playoffs, because the NFC West is wide open. One of the 4 teams will win the West, why not the Niners? Of course, it will take better QB play.

          1. And Krap got his job via injury, see the irony!

            49ers dealt the wrong QB. Alex Smith is 10 times the QB Krap is. Big mistake by the 49ers.

          2. No, Seb…………………Kap simply won’t grow. He’ll try to get by on athletic talent rather than hit the books………………….work on his mechanics…………develop accuracy beyond the first read…………

    4. Yet our safeties are playing very-very well now that they’re in a defense that suits their skills. Making a safety a pointless pick. Even more pointless than Solomon because you don’t rotate your safeties nearly as often as your d-linemen.

      1. Nobody drafts a safety #2 or #3 unless they’re Charles Woodson. You also want to have the horses up in front to protect him in the run game….

      2. Moses, Adams is like Cam Chancellor. You don’t think drafting a Cam Chancellor type player wuld have benefited the 49ers? All 3 of our safeties are injury prone, how would that have been a pointless pick?

        Instead we draft a run stuffer 3rd overall when we already had a deep dline? Cmon man!

  30. I will take S Thomas long term over Adams. Reid and Tartt playing very well. I didn’t see anything against the Raiders that showed me that Adams was a franchise changed. Thomas will emerge as the season continues.

    1. Reid is hurt and was not extended. Meaning he wont be back next year. Ward is better suited as a free safety and is always hurt. Tartt is decent but Adams would be a better fit to this secondary when another run stuffer in Thomas was not needed.
      Long term, Adams was the right pick.

      1. That’s were your wrong. Great chance Reid is resigned. They wanted to see how him and ward fit into the new system. Well I might add… That’s called smart. You really want to question a borderline HOF and safety in Lynch. I think if there was one position he knows well it’s that. I’m pretty sure you were one that wanted Hyde replaced as well….

        1. Yes I question Lynch because he is a first time GM. They should have drafted for need. And safety, WR and QB were the most glaring needs for the 49ers. Not defensive tackle.

          If they were going to keep Reid they would have extended him this past offseason. They didn’t and that is a clear indication they are moving on. Now with his injury, it doesnt help as I see Tartt or James taking over.

          As for Hyde, I never said they should move on. I took him in my fantasy and he is killing it. He is in a contract year. You never get rid of a player in a contract year. They are letting him earn his next contract

        2. I actually agree with prime on this. Reid is in a contract (ie prove it ) year and Lynch didn’t try to resign him.
          He may be back… but he is not a priority unless he balls out.

          However, while I had major questions on Thomas being taken so high, it was only because of scheme fit in the d and prior investments at the position. I still believe he will be a good player… in passing situations.
          My guess is Lynch views Armstong as largely expendable and had more questions regarding him than he did at safety.

      2. Prime, you were touting Trubisky, so now you are changing your tune.
        .
        Niners needed defensive help, and especially help stopping the run. They got that with King Solomon, and he will prove to be a shrewd choice.

        1. They needed defensive help at ILB and the secondary, not the d line.

          And yes I was touting Trubisky because after a year sitting and learning behind Hoyer and learning Shannys complex system, hed be our starter for the next 10 years. No more worries at the QB position.

          Pay attention Seb, I said the need was QB, Safety, corner or WR.

          1. Prime, they needed to stop the run. The Niners were being gashed by second stringers for 200 yards. There was no guarantee that Armstead would come back fully healthy, or that Tank would play well.
            .
            Hoyer is not going to start all season, He will either be injured, or bench himself, and it looks like both may occur. Touting Trubisky meant you wanted him to start, so stop lying, because you, yourself have said the Niners have no QB.
            .
            QB, safety, CB or WR? Quit demonstrating your lack of football acumen. The Niners needed an ILB, but I guess you, like Baalke did last season, saw no need for a replacement for Bellore.

            1. Seb says “Touting Trubisky meant you wanted him to start”

              It does? Never mind the fact I have always said any rookie QB coming in should always sit and learn for at least a year.

              But you like to conjure up your own little dream scenario Sebs so you go with that.

          2. They got the best ILB to come out in years! They have young corners and safety’s they have to evaluate. It’s an evaluation type year. It’s pretty easy to understand I believe.

    2. Robert Saleh’s evaluation of Solomon Thomas: “He takes a step forward every day. … He has a chance to be special.”

      I still think he’ll end up being a Pro Bowler for the 49ers before his 5th year.

      I have to say that I’ve been impressed with Saleh’s performance as a first time DC thus far. Keep up the good work!

  31. You’ve got to throw a few deep balls through the game to loosen the defense.

    I think Shanahan thinks that Hoyer can’t do it.

  32. “I don’t buy Shanahan’s explanation. He basically said he conceded to the Seahawks by taking what they were giving. He played into their game plan rather than dictating to them.”
    ~Grant

    I do agree with Shanahan’ take 100%.
    1. We don’t have the horses (talent) to “dictate” an opponent at the moment, let alone the seahags.
    2. Shanahan’ game plan was working very well running the ball with Hyde (who as you said on more than one occasion, did not fit this offense) and Breida.
    3. The plan also involved containment on Wilson by keeping him in the pocket.
    Shanahan’ game plan almost worked to a tee except for a great play by Wilson who threw for a TD in the 4th qtr while falling with a defender at his feet.

    1. For whatever reasons, defense lost containment of Wilson in the last drive that led to the winning TD pass, allowing him to scramble outside twice for first downs. This lack of discipline is what Wilson has repeatedly exploited against the Niners and other teams.

  33. Keep Beathard on the sidelines till the 7th game. Give the OL time to gel. Putting a rookie out now is delusional.
    Kap hasn’t been the answer for the past 4 seasons. The game has moved on past Kap. Doesn’t mean he is a poor player
    you can’t build a long term winner around him.
    Ninners are still 10 quality players short in key areas and back ups .

    1. October 1st, to start the second half against the Cardinals, sounds like a reasonable timeline for Beathard to show what he’s got….

      1. Don’t you think Shanny will start CJ only when he feels he’s got a better command of the offense than Hoyer, rather than the opponent they face? Barring an injury to Hoyer or a complete meltdown on his part, I will be surprised if CJ will see the field this season.

        1. I think they’ll want to see what Beathard has in order to determine how high the priority will need to be for the quarterback position, and by that date, Beathard should have at least 75% command of the offense. That’s enough to make an educated decision regarding his immediate future, I would think….

          1. shall we start a pool on which game CJB starts? If Rams game shows up Hoyer– again, could be 10/1 for the CJB show to start, in which case the “Hoyer bridge” ended up being super short- just across a creek, really …(especially if Hyde/Breida tear off a few more long runs vs. LA)
            let’s start a “CJB watch” thread!

    2. Considering Baalke dismantled a SB team, Kaep had no support.
      .
      Considering Lynch has replaced the major part of the team with 30 acquisitions, Kaep would now have decent support.
      .
      Glad you see the need to replace Hoyer, but starting a rookie just means they will tank for a good draft position.
      .
      RW shows why a mobile QB is desirable. His elusiveness can prevent sacks, and he used his legs to extend drives.
      .
      Kaep could do the same thing, and his 90.7 QBR proves he is not a poor player, even with the lack of support.

      1. How many wins again? How many for Gabbert? What was his QBR with the same team? How many games between the two? Seb, give up the ship sailed and we are the better for it.

      2. Its not about Kap……………its about the 9er’s, Seb.

        You are not a 9er fan…………

        Kap has refused to grow………..say goodbye!

        1. Saw, I am a die hard faithful Niner fan, who wants the Niners to win multiple championships.
          .
          Kaep, in my opinion, is superior to Hoyer, and should be playing.
          .
          You are dissing the opinion of Aaron Rodgers, Cam Newton and Tom Brady who all think he should be playing, too.
          .
          Guess you would rather the Niners lose than play Kaep.

    1. oh come on now– this was a co-dependent relationship between RG3 & Snyder….RG3 paid a HUGE price….due to the shared hubris in the toxic relationship between them…how much of a role did Shanny Sr. play here?

  34. Grant,
    You leave out one huge factor, how were the 9er receivers handling press coverage. Seattle’s press coverage used to dominate Crabtree and I don’t see a wide out on this yrs roster who is bigger or stronger than Crabtree. Regardless if it is a 3 step drop or a 7 step drop or whether its 1 safety over or 2 if your WR’s are getting jammed at the line you can not throw deep. If you have time please go back and watch the film and see how the 9er WR’s handled Seattle’s press coverage.

    1. I wish they had put Goodwin in motion so he would be at full speed at the snap of the ball and maybe avoid the check at the line of scrimmage.

    2. I mentioned that last thread. That all this wishing for ‘deep passing’ was just pipe dreams. Hoyer doesn’t have the arm or accuracy to challenge defenses/throw open WRs reliably. I mean, let’s face it, Hoyer was struggling with accuracy with the short passes.

      Making it worse, the WRs struggled with separation all day. So even when the ball was throw accurately, they frequently tackled for little or no YAC.

      1. +1 OC and Moses.

        If the WRs aren’t open, you don’t throw it to them. That’s basic football knowledge.

        And that’s just going deep on the outside. What about deep over the middle? Grant correctly suggested that we shouldn’t run at a good player like Ricardson. Yet he wanted to throw at Earl freakin Thomas! Even with a rookie TE that has been dealing with injuries.

        1. Throwing at Bobby Wagner didn’t work out, did it?

          Easier to find a window down the seams than between four underneath defenders.

              1. I agree they didn’t want it enough, because if I’m not mistaken, Shanny called one quick slant in the seam to Kittle? That was early I think, and I don’t remember anymore….

  35. “Grant did not get handed this job like Jed did with 9ers”

    Let’s all get a bit real. I love Grants writing and willingness to get in there an ask the hard Q’s. But last name Cohn had to have helped immensely getting his paper to top of someone’s pile. That is to be expected. Now he’s got to stay there on merits. The Cohn last name is now on the shelf (congrats on a great career!) and even the Cohn name has shelf life. Even Jed has to ultimately yield to the meritocracy, although in his case how his merit is judged is going to be one thing for fans, another for Mommy-dearest. In Grant’s case, most likely fan interest in his writing. Or maybe he does a book (that would be intriguing). I’m in for Grant. But do not ever ask me to pay for content. I will absorb ads up to my annoyance threshold, but internet content (outside print editions or occasional on-line book) is my limit…

    1. Grant scored big when he got that one on one interview with Eddie D, and nailed it.
      .
      Now I am hoping Grant can get a one on one interview with John Lynch, to boost his profile. Chip promised an interview with Lowell, but never came through. Maybe KS, as HC, could make good on that promise, with Grant.
      .
      However, they need to win a game before they do that, so they do not dwell on the negatives.

  36. As an ex-running back, Shannahan’s blueprint to victory vs. LA.

    1. Start RB Matt Breida. Did anyone see that run up the middle ? He took the hand off up the middle, nothing there, juked a lineman left to open up a whole right and bursted through it so quickly he had eight yards. His other runs were just runs where he got what the defense allowed, but it’s so obvious he’s perfect for Shanny’s outside zone or inside. Breida has something that can’t be taught—Vision…..Breida is the living incarnation of what Grant envisioned Joe Williams doing.

    2. Play WR Bourne and Boldin Jr. More. Hoyer isn’t the type of QB who can overcome dropped passes so needs all the support you can get. So what if Goodwin catches one deep ball. That doesn’t rest the defense and we still have 14 games left….Time to start sure handed receivers who won’t drop perfectly thrown 3rd and 8 passes for drive extending 1st downs.

    3. Get Kittle and FB, Juszczyk involved to extend drives and wear down the Rams front, then bring Goodwin back in the 4th Qtr to beat the tired Rams Defense deep—that seems to be all he’s good for.

    1. That sounds like a pretty good game plan–tho I’m not at all ready to give up on Hyde. Very hard for one tackler to take that guy down………………

  37. Also, lets end this talk about Kap’s resurrection. Last I checked, Mary isn’t watching over Kap’s NFL tomb, so lets give Hoyer a fighting chance by inserting guys who can catch the ball at least.

    Giving Hoyer guys deficient in catching is not a fair measuring stick of what Hoyer can do…..Do this, if he still performs badly, we go to Beathard.

    Let it Be, The Beatles:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P6X3IWLECY

  38. It’s a trust issue – after the 2 INTs in 2 games, KS doesn’t trust Hoyer against a good defense. I’m sure he’ll have Hoyer go deep plenty against the Lambs to try to build both of their confidence.

  39. And Shanny, about Breida.

    He’s a back that will find you a hole every play due to his vision. That hole Hyde found and cut to the sideline, but was caught from behind, Breida takes to the house with his 4-3 speed.

    So Hyde found a few 30 yard holes and his stats looked good…..He doesn’t cut it…A good back finds holes more constently, allowing you more manageable 3rd downs, or even making more 1st downs himself. It has an added effect of wearing a defense down because 1st downs extend the drive.

    Hyde isn’t wearing defenses down like a good back should do….If you want to win, better go to Breida.

    When Hyde learns the offense better, you can always switch back.

    1. Also Shanny,

      It’s a Thursday night game so you have the perfect excust to rest Hyde. Tell him you need him for the whole season, so rest on a short week is understandable, and won’t hurt anyone’s feelings.

      1. George,

        On the other hand, Shanny mentioned “the protection wasn’t good” for the deep ball, and I’m quoting Grant (Above), with Hyde in the game.

        Protection won’t have to be good with Breida in the game because he finds holes more consistently than Hyde, making it a 3rd and two, instead of 3rd and 8.

        Therefore, Breida won’t have to hold his block long.

  40. I disagree with Grant. Under the circumstances (overmatched by the opposition, a rookie HC, timid QB), I think Shanahan’s game plan was very good, albeit not exciting from a passing big play point of view. I yelled at our player’s poor execution and miscues just as much as anyone else (the Goodwin drop, the Robinson missed interception, which few seem to mention). OTOH, Hyde had an amazing game and has shut down any criticism of him during the offseason and TC. But after the game, I realized I was so upset because for the first time in a long time, the 49ers were actually in the game played in Seattle. If RW doesn’t make that miraculous escape for the TD throw, the game probably goes into overtime.

    One thing to remember, is that Earl Thomas is the major player on that defense. He was out during last year’s playoff game between Atlanta and the Seachickens. It was much easier to pass during that game because of his absence. I expect continued improvement and think we can win the Rams game.

  41. Seems to me that the throw to Goodwin on the go route vs Carolina was pretty much perfect. It was deep and accurate. This idea that he doesn’t have an arm is hogwash. Give him the time and he can execute. I’d still feature the running game vs the Rams and stick with it. Nothing gels an offensive line better than pounding the rock. If they can be successful running, the passing game will open up.

  42. Here is the Wagner pick.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoqNNJw08sw

    You can see our WR at the bottom of the screen running straight out. Hoyer looks at said WR before throwing to Wagner. It looks Hoyer’s first read was a deep route. For whatever reason, (it was covered 1 on 1, there was safety help) Hoyer decided not to go deep.

    We don’t have a full view of that play. We don’t know if the WR broke his deep route or if he was the first read or a decoy. We have insufficient data to say Shanny didn’t try to go deep. Shanny is not playing QB anyway.

    1. Eric Branch‏ @Eric_Branch 1h1 hour ago

      Robert Saleh said Brock Coyle replaced Ray-Ray Armstrong for a series because “he deserves it.” Said he could play more. #49ers

    2. I just checked the coaches tape. Hoyer stared at the tight end, Garrett Celek, to look off Bobby Wagner before throwing to Hyde, who was the primary read on the play.

      1. So Hoyer threw to his primary read, but had the option to go deep. That’s on Hoyer. Shanny called a play with a deep route in it. As Kyle said. You don’t call deep passes and short passes. You call plays with multiple routes and hope your QB makes a good decision.

      2. Who thinks they’re fooling anyone, let alone Wagner, when they stare at Celek. Should have been Kittle, and it might have been more credible. I think I’d rather give Bolden Jr. that route Hyde ran, too….

  43. Don’t know if this is a CYA comment by Saleh, but I did see Thomas push back Seattle’s RG like a bobsled, 5 yards into the backfield then trampling over him, before being jerked down by his uni. (yet another missed holding call by officials).

    Matt Maiocco‏Verified account @MaioccoNBCS 37m37 minutes ago
    The boot is off for Ruben Foster, and he appears to be walking around very well.

    Joe Fann‏Verified account @Joe_Fann 1h1 hour ago
    Robert Saleh’s evaluation of Solomon Thomas: “He takes a step forward every day. … He has a chance to be special.”

  44. Joe Fann‏Verified account @Joe_Fann 1h1 hour ago

    Lorenzo Jerome and Adrian Colbert would compete to start if Jaquiski Tartt is unable to go on Thursday.

  45. Kevin Jones‏Verified account @Mr_KevinJones 2h2 hours ago

    Kyle has worked with way less on O before. Rex Grossman in DC, a ragtag group in CLE. He made it work. He’ll come up with answers soon in SF

      1. Grant said Goodwin was jogging, didn’t look back at the qb…..time for Boldin Jr…..This is just pi$$ing me off more and more….a receiver who drops passes and doesn’t go all out on his route because he’s not the primary.

        Dwight Clark said Bill Walsh and Joe Montana would remind all the offensive players to run your routes all out “because you never know when your number will be called.”

  46. I thought it was the best coached game we haved played in Seattle since Alex Smith. Hoyar sucked though. But coaching was sound. I disagree with grant on this one. If CK7 and JH coached this game we loose by 3 tds. Things are going to happen. Perhaps this week.

  47. “Hoyer can check down if his attempt to look off Thomas fails. The Niners never even tried.”

    You mean taking what the defense gives you.

    You don’t know what Shanny called on every play. Yet you claim that Shanny never called a play with a deep route after the first two.

    1. I never said he didn’t call a play with a deep route. A lot of times, those deep routes are decoys meant to occupy the deep third corner. Shanahan never attempted to exploit the weakness in Cover 3, which is the seams.

          1. How do you know the WR wasn’t dogging it? Even if he were a decoy, you can’t assume that every play with a deep route was all decoys. You don’t have enough information to make that claim.

            1. He wasn’t in the progression. He was a decoy. He would have looked back at the quarterback before slowing down if he thought there was a chance he would get the ball.

  48. “He clearly implied Seattle’s pass rush took away the deep pass and forced Shanahan to take what was given, which were short, quick throws.”

    He clearly implied that on those two plays.

    1. No. He called two shot plays and the protection didn’t hold up. Then he decided to take what the defense was giving him, which was short stuff.

        1. He answered a question about his game plan. I asked if his game plan was to throw so few long throws. He said no, he called a couple of shots early but the protection didn’t hold up. The pass rush took his shot plays away. So he took what the defense gave him and called short passes.

          1. “He said no, he called a couple of shots early but the protection didn’t hold up.”

            That is pure spin.

            He actually said. “No, we HAD a couple shots early and the protection didn’t hold up.”.

            He said we had, not I called.

        2. #80
          Don’t you know by now you can’t win an argument with Grant? He knows more about football than any man alive and he is never wrong. Seb is right behind him.

  49. jeeze Grant! Who do you think you are? Air Coryell?

    hmmm….throw short controlled passes and take what the defense gives you until they break and then you hit them with a bigger shot. There was a team in 80’s and 90’s that specialized in that offensive philosophy and system.

    of course playing a WCO type of football takes the QB to make quick decisions and accurate throws…something Hoyer wasn’t doing.

    but going vertical?

    after the Seahawk’s game would you trust the O-line to protect long enough for deeper routes to develop?

    given how Hoyer is playing do you think it’s wise to pin the offensive game plan on his ability to throw accurately deep?

    given that the only pure vertical receiver the Niners have that they know anything about is Goodwin and he can’t seem to catch the ball…do you think it’s a good idea to compound the offensive questions with having old man Garcon and a bunch of unproven players run deep routes against one of the better defensive backfields in the league.

    any of those 3 issues would make any coach think twice about radically changing their offensive philosophy and increase the risk of throwing deep. but compound all 3 issues makes it a no brainer that simply calling deep passing plays wasn’t the answer.

    This is why NFL game plans are created in a vacuum with just X’s and O’s. The players and what they do well and not well have to be considered.

  50. Maybe Grant forgot that the Seahags have 3 pro-bowl player in the secondary.
    As I mentioned earlier, Shanahan had to take what the defense was giving him because at the moment we don’t have the talent to dictate our offense on anyone.

    1. Grant seems to think the 49ers are good. Good enough to go into Seattle and run whatever scheme they want.
      That will be true in 3 more years once we get a QB and our playmakers develop and Seattles vaunted defense gets older.
      And one more thing, Pete Carroll retires.

      1. Piss on Seattle. There’s always a way-always. We might have just enough to get it done right now, but these players have to be held accountable. Dropping passes at Goodwin’s rate is absolutely not acceptable-nor is playing half-a$$ if your not the primary.
        Hoyer should be on the shortest of leashes. He got an F and he deserves that. If either one of those guys had shown up, we likely win. If both show up, it’s almost a certainty. It is early, but right now its looking like these guys are gone next year-these guys are costing us games. They are as close as you can come to being “net-negative” players. We still need some pieces…………
        But I can guarantee one thing-Kap sure as heck isn’t the answer. This “History revisionist” dream of Seb’s is just that-a Hemingway novel.

    1. Shanahan basically started out by saying it was no confidence in the pass protection. But it doesn’t take a stretch of the imagination to believe he had little confidence in the receivers and the QB as well.

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