What makes a QB great?

What is the No.1 quality that makes a QB great?

Obviously, he can’t have any major weaknesses. But there are good QBs who have no major weaknesses, too. So what makes a QB great?

To me, a great QB has to make other players better. That’s the No.1 quality of a great QB. If you’re going to give a $100 million contract to a QB, he has to make other players better or else he is not worth $100 million.

If you give a QB that much money, eventually he will have to turn scrubs into a weapons after a couple of starters get injured.

You can’t have depth AND a $100 million QB. A great QB must carry his team.

  1. ” …What makes a QB great? …”

    See: .. The Joe …

    Grant ..
    You mention the $100 Million figure ..
    are pointing to Flacco… or are you saying
    Kaep might want this type of money, too ?

    1. Alex Smith’s biggest flaw is his lack of consistency. Great QB’s string together a chain of great performances and have an occasional ‘off’ game. QB’s like Alex Smith have one great game but then follow it up with a string of average performances or even a stinker or two.

        1. just about every QB playing, today
          could be described as inconsistent, as well, coffee .
          even when you’re talking, Brady, Peyton, and Rogers

          1. If you were to compare Brady to Peyton to Rogers to Brees you would see in consistency among them but compare those names to Smith, Kapernick, Vick and you would see that the great ones although inconsistent among each other are consistently great compared to their peers.

              1. Yep, he consistently blows it in the playoffs which doesn’t make him great. I couldn’t agree more.

              2. They always lacked depth. I thought Romo had a stacked deck if his team stayed healthy, but that didn’t come close to happening.

              3. But that apparently didn’t stop you from picking them, and ten sticking to that pick for the vast majority of the season. Don’t remember you bringing up a lack of depth when you were defending your pick last season.

              4. “At the top of that range are Tony Romo and Matthew Stafford. You could argue that Kaepernick is better than those guys already (I wouldn’t – not yet, as the 49ers have a much better team around their QB than Dallas or Detroit).”

                -From the link Razoreater shared below.

              5. Hammer says “I wouldn’t – not yet, as the 49ers have a much better team around their QB than Dallas or Detroit”

                So much better that they had a 10-0 lead against the Seahawks at their place, and couldn’t run the football behind that much better offensive line. What happened to the Hamburger Train?

              6. Coffee for Closers obviously fails to remember all of the season-ending injuries suffered by the Cowboys, especially on defense, within the first few days of training camp when they were down in Oxnard. Those injuries significantly expose a team, and in the salary cap era, especially when assessed fines and with dead money, it is hard for a team to restock its roster with quality players at that point. Therefore, you end up losing close games and struggling to win some games that should have been more lopsided in your favor.

  2. A great quarterback is someone who wins consistently, He is someone who is never out of a game regardless of the score. A great quarterback doesn’t have to have the greatest skill set but does have to have a great mind set. He has to know what his team needs to do to score and then get them in that position. A great quarterback does so much more than throw an accurate ball.

  3. I am excited to see Ck develop this year. I believe this year he will be elite. Start the season off with all of his weapons. He needs to start throwing for 300 yards if we are going to win a superbowl. Our D can stop any offense. So if and when you make the error in throws it is not so devasting.

  4. If the number of Super Bowl wins is the measuring stick ..
    Trent Dilfer and even Doug Williams wear the same
    number of rings that Peyton and Rogers do..

    but Peyton and Rogers are considered as
    the best of the best ..whereas
    Williams and Dilfer are never even considered
    in that conversation

    1. That is the reason you can NEVER measure a football player’s greatness by how many rings he has. Anytime I hear that argument used to determine a players value, that person loses all credibility with me.

      Consistently ‘helping’ your team win and making players around you better simply by your presence and performance make a QB great. Winning is nice, but a QB will never have such an impact to determine outcomes by themselves.

  5. To be considered great Kap needs to be able to throw the receivers open and hit the wide open targets. That it. He good at this point but not great…

  6. A great QB wins in the playoffs. Kap is 4-2. Also, did Crabtree not get better in 2012 once Kap took over?

    The 100M number is arbitrary. For all we know, we could have an out-clause after 3 years or have certain incentives (such as SB win) to get all the money. Flacco will NEVER see his 100M once his salary escalates to 28M in 2 years.

    1. Crabtree got better when Kaep took over because that’s his budy! (I only have eyes for you). Crabtree never gave any extra effort when Alex was throwing – he made it clear from the beginning he didn’t care for him. Also, since Alex can and does throw to multiple players, Crabtree’s production couldn’t help but get better with Kaep since he’s the only one he sees most of the time (I only have eyes for you)

    1. Jack if you don’t stop with the whole Sanchize thing, we’re going to have to start checking your for suspicious tattoos. And nobody really wants to go there…. : )

      1. The previous regime of professionals made plenty. This group of professionals has made this franchise into a perennial contender, which is not something to hold in contempt, especially in the highly competitive NFL….

            1. I’m wondering where Colin Kaepernick would be drafted if everyone had a do over….I think he’d have a good chance to go number one over Cam*The Superman*Newton….

            2. or how they handled the Harbaugh trade rumors.

              What would you think of this group of professionals if they had indeed pulled off a trade sending Harbaugh to the Browns? I don’t necessarily believe it was all that close to happening but I do believe the discussions happened and that in itself speaks volumes. Was it a good decision by these professionals to even entertain the trade discussion?

              1. CFC, I don’t care about all the static. I care about the health, relevance and winning tradition of the franchise. Just win. That’s what they’ve been doing. I’m confident that’s what they will continue to do….

          1. Yea CFC, it makes them exempt from mistakes. Ha! You’re killing me. To me it means they’ve earned my respect, and I’m confident they know more than I, Grant, you, and even the legend in his own mind, Jack Hammer….

            1. Your overconfidence in Kaepernick is clouding your objectivity in the matter. The smarter decision for the organization is to wait until next off season to extend Kaepernick. The only parties that benefit from them doing a deal now is Kaepernick and his agent. There is no legitimate threat of him leaving because he’s angry we didn’t extend him sooner and he’s already slated to be a top paid QB so it’s not like his value can possibly escalate to the point that they are forced to do a contract now or will regret not having done so. If he goes and lays an egg this season how much more leverage does that give the team in not having to possibly hand him a free agent crippling contract. Why handcuff the teams options like that if it isn’t necessary and it isn’t.

              1. My confidence lies in the trusted professionals who turned a loser into a winner. A bust into a 2nd Round pick. Targeted and acquired a franchise quarterback in the second round as good if not better than the first pick overall, plutonium Newton. These guys are good…

              2. CFC,

                Jack will say I’ve said this before so stop reading now Jack.

                It benefits the team to sign him now. His price is not going down. If you honestly think Kap is going to lay an egg with what we’ve seen in the past year and half, you haven’t been paying enough attention. The guy is winning while learning how to play in the pocket. Think about that for a minute. We have a QB so physically gifted that he wins while learning how to play his position at the pro level. None of the so called current great QB’s have done what Kap has done in his first year and half of starting other than Brady. It took Manning many years to win a SB. Rodgers sat and watched for 3 years and then took a couple of years to put it together.

                You can’t judge Kap by an unreasonable standard. He’s earned the new contract.

                If he gets to FA, they are paying more for a long term deal or franchising him, neither of which is a better option if they can lock him up now and have the ability to manage the Kap hit easier.

              3. If you honestly think Kap is going to lay an egg with what we’ve seen in the past year and half, you haven’t been paying enough attention
                —————
                I stopped reading when I got to this part.

              4. CFC,

                Are you saying you expect CK to under perform next year?
                ——————-

                “If he goes and lays an egg”

                All I said was “if.” It wasn’t an expectation or a prognostication it was simply acknowledging the possibility.

  7. kap is not a great QB. He’s a good QB with great talent.

    He has the potential to get there with good coaching and guidance, and of course work ethic, which we all know Kap has. I honestly hope he’s working on more than just conditioning, but its not for me to say that he isn’t. I don’t think he will ever have the numbers brees, brady, and rogers put up. This offense limits the passing game’s numbers. I think kap will be efficient, and make the big plays in the air and on the ground, and he will help us win because of that. This team is built off a strong defense and efficient offense. So he may never be defined as elite on this team.

    So then the question becomes how much is he worth to this team?

  8. Grant – I’m actually curious what you mean by “better” and how you are analyzing this metric. Everyone can agree Crabtree finally broke out and became a legit receiver after Kap took over. But let’s look at other stats from last year:
    Boldin had his best season as a WR since 2008; Vernon Davis had the 2nd best season of his career; Even Frank Gore had a very solid season despite being 30 and written off by you.
    So – How are you measuring “making others better?” Sure looks to me like everyone around him were “better” last year than anyone of them was the year before.

    1. Boldin averaged fewer yards per catch in 2013 than he did in 2012. He got targeted more in 2013 because Crabtree was hurt.

      Crabtree played well in 2012 with Alex Smith. Kaepernick targeted Crabtree more often at Vernon Davis’ expense. Kaepernick targeted Davis 11 times the final six games of the regular season.

      Gore averaged 3.65 yards per carry the final 10 games of the 2013 season.

      1. You are splitting stats to make excuses. Bottom line: They all had good seasons and you are trying to take that off the QB shoulders and place the reasoning somewhere else.

      2. In 2012 Crabtree had 9 games with Alex and 10 Games with Kap (including playoffs). In 9 games with Alex he had 3 TD’s and only One 100 yard game. In the next 10 games with Kap he had 8 TD’s and five 100 yard games. His catches per game, TD ratio, Yards per catch, and total yards per game all went way up under Kap. Again – What Metric are you using to make your comparisons?

        1. Kaepernick force fed the ball to Crabtree at Vernon Davis’ expense. The offense as a whole didn’t improve much under Kaepernick in 2012.

          1. Grant, maybe my memory is failing, but I could swear that you blamed Roman for the lack of Davis’ involvement in the game plan back then.

          2. Grant,
            I have serious doubts that you actually know how a QB “makes his teammates better”. Could you provide us with a more in-depth explanation of this process.

            1. I asked him that very question multiple times yesterday Grimey. I also asked him to name what receivers he felt Kap should have made better Still haven’t gotten an answer.

  9. Can the front office people pick a QB and /or a WR who can bring home the bacon (Lombardi)? I have said it before, that CK is an amazing athlete, but not an amazing QB. His unique skills are a mark against him in that opponents have ALL designed defenses to negate his running skills, and his short to medium passes aren’t accurate enough to break up the ‘box’ leaving the running game some room to succeed. If by chance CK gets injured, can we replace him with someone with the same skills…not likely. He has to be able to go through his progressions to become a real threat to a defense. If he doesn’t, our O-line has to adapt to a completely different blocking scheme for his replacement. As a long-time 49er fan, I obviously want to see him succeed….at this point, I think that he has too many flaws to be the starter. 3 or 4 plays a game doesn’t get it. He has to improve to deserve the contract that he wants. Otherwise, we’re stuck with him for the length of the contract as we watch the rest of the team go through attrition….I know it’s not popular, but think about it….

    1. So going NFCCG two times, in a year and a half of starting means he’s not good enough. Yeah he had help, but the argument can be made if it wasn’t for him in a couple of games we would not have been there. And lack of a deep threat is the reason why teams can stack the box. They drop safeties down because they have no fear of anyone on our offense running by them. What QB that was a free agent or coming through the draft can do what Kap has done

    2. Oregon,
      Any QB’s and WR’s you have in mind in the draft?

      Just a couple of questions here: Are there any QB’s in the draft that are better than Payton Manning?
      And, are there any QB’s in the draft that could win right away as seems to be your MO?

      As for a WR.
      Sammy Watkins might, yes might help us win a SB but certainly not by himself. Watkins, Beckum, Cooks, Evans and Desean could help us win a SB by complimenting Crabtree and Boldin. But they don’t get us to the big dance without Crabs or Boldin playing on the same field.

      1. AES

        No, I don’t have a particular QB that is better than Peyton , but how do we know? With Peyton, there was no question in the fact that Archie (dad) had basically salted the mine. Peyton himself was unquestioned because of his sterling career at Tenn. (I’m not sure what that question was about…) You know that….What my bellyaching has been about is that there are TONS of small college WR’s out there who are screaming for a chance. There are a lot of 2nd tier QB’s out there who are doing the same. GET CREATIVE! Look around ; there are hundreds of UFA’s here in SF alone working out with agents….and they’re GOOD. Pedigree don’t mean squat if you don’t show up at gametime. They’re bigger, smaller, faster, stronger, and hungrier, but they don’t have the D-1 pedigree.

        1. Oregon,
          Your opening statement (at 8:55am) seems to suggest that you are frustrated with our current QB and WR options. Past comments that you’ve made regarding Kaep can validate this as well.

          The reason I used P.Manning as a question is that there are no other QB’ in the draft that could win a SB right away or at least in the less than two season span that CK has played, which seems to be the focus of your frustration. P.Manning has all the ingredients that Kaep seems to lack:
          1. Footwork
          2. Decision making
          3. Making 2-3 reads
          4. Making others around him better
          And yet, Manning and the Broncos were smacked around in the SB.

          While many here busy themselves with highlighting CK’ stats in comparison to other QB’s, my thinking is that CK may actually have the style to beat a defense like Seattle’s.
          I’m looking at how CK can be better than any of the leagues other QB’s. I’m looking at how CK can get over the c-hawks defense.

          Payton’ almost perfect techniques couldn’t do it, Brees couldn’t, and I’m not convinced that any of the other QB’ in the league can as well.
          CK’ ability to run against Seattle’s defense in the 1st half of the championship game was killing them until the c-hawks adjusted in the 2nd half.

          So while some want our QB to be like the elite QB’s in the league, I want a QB that can beat Seattle’s defense. And I strongly believe that QB is Kaep.

    3. I’m with you on this O. Kap wins it next year, then he deserves the big bucks for his achievements. If not, other options have to be on the table. In the cap era, attrition is to the NFL as gravity is to everyone.

  10. “a great QB has to make other players better.” sounds alot like Montana. Some of my favorite qualities…

    - A quick release. Not just mechanics. From the moment a QB recognizes an open receiver, to the time it leaves his hand. Good eyes, a fast decision brain and a compact throw = quick release. As soon as I saw Wilson in a Seattle preseason game I knew he would be the starter because of his release.

    - Feet, feet, feet. Not scrambling but pocket footwork. How quick is the dropback? BW used to make tape cut-ups only showing the bottom half of the QB. He could always tell which ones were complete from the feet.

    - Functional football intelligence.

    - Vision. He sees all open WRs and coverages. Puts pressure on the defense by remaining a weapon even when scrambling.

    - The ability to function under stress.

    - Work and study habits.

    - Toughness.

    - Can make the throws. Don’t need a cannon arm, but does need to be able to threaten the entire defense.

    1. Do you think Joe Flacco, Eli Manning or Ben Roethlisberger are great QBs? I don’t, and they’ve won Super Bowls.

          1. Still got the ring(s) and a hell of a story to tell the kids, grandkids, and immortalized in the annuals of NFL History. Pretty great, huh?

          2. Flacco, Roethlisberger, and E Manning may not be great QBs, but all 3 can play great and were very instrumental in their team winning the Super Bowl. Eli was great in the playoffs in 2011. The 49ers pounded Eli in the NFCCG and like Jason, he kept getting up. He was great that day. Flacco was great VS the 49ers in the SB. Roethlisberger VS the Cards on their last drive in the SB. They may not be great all the time, but give them credit, they won when they had to. They didn’t blow their opportunity and played well on the biggest stage.

            Great QBs know their limitations, take what the defense gives them, play the game like field generals, and are money when it counts. Look up Montana, Joe.

            1. That’s true. When they had a stacked deck, they won the Super Bowl. Maybe that makes them very good instead of just good. Kaepernick isn’t very good yet.

              1. I would agree with that. Based on what I feel is a great QB, Kaep is learning his limitations, takes what the defense gives him most of the time, is still learning to play like a field general, and is money most of the time. He’s a good QB with potential for greatness.

      1. Grant,
        Were Dan Marino, Jim Kelly, and Fran Tarkenton great QB’s although not having won a SB?

        I believe that J.Unitas and Joe Namath only won one championship and SB. Were they great QB’s?

        The proposition that you have to win a SB (or more than one SB) to be considered a great QB is completely bogus.
        If you go by that premise then T.Dilford and Mark Rypien were better than Marino, Kelly, and Tarkenton.
        Sorry, but that won’t cut it.

    1. Yes George, I’ve been saying for weeks, Harbaugh plans on having more down field passing to better utilize Kaepernicks’ skill set. This year will be the beginning transition into a Kaepernick centric offense….

        1. They have to. The offensive philosophy he used in college — and which got him into the NFL — is good but not good enough here. I was concerned that he was too thick-headed to realize that. I hope he is not just paying lip service to this. You don’t know with him.

          1. The offensive philosophy he used in college — and which got him into the NFL — is good but not good enough here.

            You’re right. Harbaugh’s offensive philosophy has only allowed the 49ers to go 36-11-1 in the regular season and 5-3 in the playoffs, with 3 NFCCG appearances and 1 Super Bowl appearance. The offense clearly needs an overhaul.

            1. CB, I know they’ve done great. Very proud of them. But to beat Seattle and win the SB, they have to be better. In my opinion, either –

              1. They get better at offense.
              2. They get better at defense.

              Their defense is better than their offense, so yes, their offense is good but not good enough. If it were better, they could beat Seattle on a regular basis.

              1. George:

                It’s one thing to say the offense must perform better and quite another to say that the offensive philosophy must change. Do you really attribute the losses in Seattle to the offensive philosophy? I don’t.

              2. CB, if what they do mostly is run, a good defense can stuff them. I don’t think their oline is great, but if it were, I still wouldn’t think they could do much against a good defense stacking the box. Most teams they can beat they way they are, but that’s because of their great defense. But their defense is not smothering. Assuming they rebuild their secondary with this draft, maybe they’ll become that. Until they do, they will have to score more points. Is that execution or philosophy? I think it’s philosophy. They are just not aggressive. Look how Seattle kept on advancing against Denver despite the huge lead they had. We would have moved it on the ground and punted. In the NFC game, yes, I think we lost because of philosophy. Yes, we turned the ball over, but you can’t count on not doing that. Wilson’s fumble in the first quarter was telling. We played for the field goal. Can’t do that against a good defense and expect to win. Harbaugh says Kap needs more targets. I think he needs a more aggressive offense and a new OC. Please have the last word. Respectfully, I’m done.

              3. George,

                Not being able to run is what has cost them against Seattle. If they could have put together any kind of running game besides Kap, they would have probably won that game. Seattle kept stuffing them, made them one dimensional and that is when they beat you.

                In order to beat Seattle in that stadium, SF has to be able to run the ball.

          2. Harbaugh said he wanted to run the westcoast offense too when he was hired.lol..As long as his right hand man Roman is there..I dont expect nuttin’ to change

    2. It did seem as though in his last press conference, Harbaugh did everything but actually say that WR is a necessity in the draft. At least that is what I picked up. Smoke screen or excuse for Kapernick’s problems or is WR first pick in draft and maybe even a trade up???

  11. 1. They make those around them better.
    2. They can carry the team when they need to.
    3. They find a way to win even when they are inconsistent.
    4. They finish.

    1. Just like Kaep did vs Brady, MidWest ..
      but to your list, I would add ..

      5. They do it “consistently”
      (to “borrow” what CFC said)

      1. The Niners dominated in that game MWN, so I can’t really classify that as an example. Consistency is great, but the best find a way to win even when they are inconsistent. Joe Montana’s game against the Cowboys in the 1981 NFCCG is a perfect example of this.

        1. in other words … “clutch” …. right ?

          To be fair .. though .. Kaep has
          shown this trait as well … but
          there are those, here, who don’t consider that .. so-o-o
          here we are .. back n forth ! .. lol

          Grant,
          I must say ..
          this is one of your better topics as of late ..
          you’re gonna get 500+ comments ..
          in no time !

              1. That was more on the defense and Gore. Kaep didn’t deliver the crippling blow on offense. He was a factor, but not the deciding factor.

      2. Two great examples would’ve been if Kaep had led the team to victory in the Super Bowl or this year’s NFCCG against the Seahawks.

        1. Much as I like Steve Young .. I blame the Super Bowl
          loss on him ..
          ya kno ..

          during his interview of Kaep .. he leaned in toward
          Kaep and said ..

          ” .. You know what happens when the Niners
          play in the Super Bowl …. don’t you ..? ..”

          (or words to that effect)

          Talk about adding pressure !

    2. Good list MidWest. I think a couple of others would be:

      5. Their teammates believe in them and play hard for them.
      6. They want the game to be on their shoulders when it matters most.

    3. MWD,
      Add a fifth for good measure.

      5. No off the field issues – good role model as the focal point of the team and primary image of the franchise.

  12. Lots of different definitions of what makes a QB great.

    Here is one.

    The ability to strap a struggling team or a team that is facing adversity onto his back and lead them to victory in a game or throughout the season.

    Joe Montana is an easy example here–His one playoff road win in Chicago. Wind chill -26 and the wind was blowing so hard that the kickers and punters had trouble advancing the ball. Joe threw three TD’s and 288 yards. A great QB performance.

    The following year in the Eagles road game. Joe was sacked eight times by the likes of Reggie White, Jerome Brown Clyde Simmons and others. That D was close to as talented as the 85 Bears. Joe had the stuffings beat out of him but got up off of the deck and strapped the 49ers onto his back and to victory. John Taylor was awesome in that game.

      1. Just reminded of the great 1988 49er season. Probably my all time favorite year. An up and down team that eventually got it together to win it all. Supremely talented and probably more highlights than any other two years combined. I wore out my old 1988 VHS 49er season highlight film. An astonishing year of highlights.

        All time great performance after great performance from Joe Montana, Steve Young, Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Roger Craig(NFC offensive MVP), Michael Carter, Jeff Fuller, Ronnie Lott, Charles Haley, Eric Wright, Larry Roberts and a young Pierce Holt.

  13. Nobody said Brady, Montana, Breeze, and others were great after one and a half seasons of playing pro ball. Time will tell. CK is not great by any means. He has the tools to be great tho. To be great all the pieces must fall into place. Coaching staff, ownership, players all play into the part of a QB being great. I think when you look back at what we ‘think’ who is great you look back at their organizations and you will find them to be great. Winning the super bowl in no way is a sign of greatness. Plunket, Eli, Flacco, are in know way great but they have won Super Bowls.

      1. Jack writes:

        “…..If the 49ers give Kaepernick the type of contract he is seeking, between $18 to $20 million annually…”

        Jack.. can you point me to where that was mentioned ?
        (I musta missed that one)

        I remember reading, earlier (somewhere) where
        Kaep was asked about this .. and he said something to the
        effect, that he wasn’t going to ask for something that would
        restrict the team’s ability to keep or require talent ..

          1. Thanx, Jack ..

            Even though this article sounds reasonable..
            I question the word of a “network” reporter
            (based in New York) .. as opposed to
            someone based in Santa Clara …
            (or NorCal, at least)

            a real 49ers “insider” … ya kno ?

            someone like …

            u-mmmm … Grant ?

    1. The draft determines whether the window stays open or shuts. Kap’s cap number is manageable with smart drafting and extending. Baalke has certainly shown he can do that. He’s also done a good job of staggering contracts so that he doesn’t lose too many vets in any one year. Have we mentioned that he’s loaded with picks going into a strong draft? Considering the talent that he assembled from 2011-2013, he’s in a awfully god spot moving forward to maintain that talent level.

    2. Jacks trying to hard to be like the Cohn’s.

      Other than Brady, every one of those QB’s (Manning, Rodgers, Brees) got a big extension before they won a SB. It wasn’t 18 mill, but it was also a number of years ago and the money was pretty big at the time so that point doesn’t fly.

      We also have a situation in which the cap is predicted to go up another 16 million over the next two years. If there is ever a time to extend your QB, it is now. Not only will you have the room under the cap, but the deal they sign him to this year will look like a bargain in a couple of years time when that cap increase is forcing teams to spend even more on QB’s.

      I am also so tired of hearing Jack and Grant say that Kap needs to make those around him better or that the great QB’s always make those around them better. There has never been a bigger load of BS than saying the QB makes those around them better and nobody can give an example of that actually happening. Montana was great before Rice, but his numbers sure got a whole lot better when Rice arrived didn’t they? As much as I love Montana, I didn’t see him making those around him better when they were getting their asses kicked by the Giants in the mid 80′s. It’s great to have a great QB, but no QB wins without having other good players around him. Football is the ultimate team sport and no position can win a game without help from all the others.

      Great QB’s do their jobs at a high level and are not the reason their teams lose. That is the biggest difference between a QB like Kap and one like Sanchez. I’m not saying Kap is great yet, but the comparison to Sanchez is ridiculous when you look at how many times Sanchez turned the ball over.

      We’ve seen repeatedly that great QB’s can’t win games consistently when their best receivers are injured. We’ve seen that they can win games when the defense they are facing is better than their offense. Manning couldn’t elevate the Broncos in the SB. He couldn’t elevate the Colts in about half of their playoff games. Brady had the worst statistical year he’s had in a long time and was 17th in passer rating, 11th in QBR. Why is that? Oh yeah he didn’t have many decent receivers to throw to.

      Saying great QB’s make other players better is a myth used to wax poetic about the top QB’s in the league and in years past. It’s the common trend to overlook all the bad and focus on the good. Make a legend out of somebody using a small sample of the whole picture. What great QB’s can do to make the team better is to do their job at a high level, which in turn instills confidence in the team that they have a QB who is not going to lose a game with stupid mistakes and is going to do everything they can to win it.

      Kaepernick in his short time as starter has fulfilled this requirement. He is a leader, he doesn’t make many dumb mistakes, he will do anything he has too to win a game, and he is the most competitive SOB you are ever going to go up against. That is why the team wants to lock him up now.

      I see so many around here holding Kap to a standard that is impossible to meet. You want a QB who has started 29 games to be Aaron Rodgers, Brees or Manning instead of comparing him to where these guys were 29 starts into their careers. He’s won 21 of those 29 games, gone to a SB and NFCCG in back to back years which is unheard of in the modern league. Stop focusing on a couple of throws he didn’t make and look at what he’s accomplished in a very short period of time.

        1. “can” should also be “can’t” in the point about the defense being better than their offense.

          I really need to proof read these things.

      1. “Montana was great before Rice, but his numbers sure got a whole lot better when Rice arrived didn’t they?”

        Not really. Montana had a QB rating of 102.9 in 1984, which was his best until 1989 when he posted a 112.4. He had ratings that were mostly in the high 80′s – low 90′s throughout his career.

        1. He had the highest amount of TD passes in a season with Jerry rice. He had the highest completion percentage by far with Jerry Rice (70%). He was on a team good enough to win 4 straight SB’s with Jerry Rice. Joe Montana will tell you he was a better QB with Jerry Rice.

            1. Football is still the ultimate team sport. It’s difficult to copy, paste and compare when the variables are so dynamic and the dependence on the man next to you to do his job, is so imperative for success….

            2. Yeah he did and in the first one he won with a performance of 14-22 for 157 yards and 1 TD. That was coming on the heels of a 3 int. performance against Dallas.

              I’m not trying to knock Montana, he’s my favorite QB of all time, but this idea that he and other great QB’s could make those around them better even if the players weren’t very good is pure fiction.

              1. Ah yes. The 1981 championship game, when a young 2nd year starter led his team to victory in the final moments despite having multiple turnovers in the game. The stuff from which legends are born.

                Oh what a difference a foot can make.

              2. rocket:

                You have to admit that the talent Montana had around him on that team, particularly on offense, was nowhere close to the talent Kaepernick has had around him the past two years.

                Note: Saying that he is not as good as Montana was is not a criticism of Kaepernick.

              3. Claude,

                Montana didn’t have much to work with no doubt about it, and there’s no problem with saying Kap is no Montana. He’s not, but he’s also only scratched the surface of his career. I also don’t have a problem with legitimate criticism of the guy. I haven’t put him on a pedestal and declared him infallible. He has a lot to improve on and I’ve always agreed with that. It’s the nitpicking and standards people use in regards to him that I take offense to at times, which is why I mentioned hypocrisy in the earlier post I made to you.

                The point about Montana was in response to Jack picking out one point in my diatribe about Montana’s numbers being better when he Rice joined the team. We then got off track as usual and I’m all of a sudden talking with Grant about Montana’s performances in SB’s.

                You know how this place works.

      2. In what made Joe Montana great lets not forget the wizard behind the throne as a very important piece of that QB makeup puzzle. Montana was lucky to be found and developed by Bill Walsh. Joe was a perfect fit for the West Coast offense and likewise the WCO was a perfect fit for JM.
        So to add one more to the list of what makes a good / great QB – the system that luck should gift him.
        Arthur had his Merlin; Joe had his Bill.

        1. Sorry for the bad writing, a bike accident left me with a broken left arm and a broken right thumb making typing very difficult.

  14. Easy. Selling tickets. Putting butts in the seats and selling popcorn. Getting endorsement deals. Marry a beautiful wife. Big house and membership in CCs coast to cast. Year in and year out. Same as any other entertainment gig…

  15. I don’t think “Great” QB’s have the same characteristics. I think each one is different. Super Bowls can’t be the measuring stick bc if they are then Dan Marino who is one of the greats wouldn’t be in that conversation

  16. Grant you need to remove salary from the conversation. Salary is not purely talent driven its market driven. Your cherry picked level of 100 million has everything to do with what other teams pay their QB’s, other teams set the bar then you respond. Grant Cohn might decide 100 million must only be paid to a QB that he deems as “great” but no one cares where one person or one team thinks the bar should be set, its set by the QB’s that sign a year or 2 before you sign yours. A team can hold out but they will end up signing a QB with a talent level comenserate to the money you pay. IE if you pay B-money you will get B- talent. So drop salary from the conversation then we can decide what seperates very good QB’s from the truely great.

  17. Grant way to write an article and impress upon us bloggers YOUR definition of great. You said,

    “if you pay a QB $100 million, he has to make other players better. If you give a QB that much money, eventually he will have to turn scrubs into a weapons after a couple of starters get injured.”

    Folks that is Grants way of saying that he doesn’t think Kaep is worth it. Here is reality and maybe young Grant can learn something from it. I’ve only seen GREAT QB’s turn mediocre WR into good WR’s a couple of times in all my years. I saw Montana do it when he went to the Chiefs. Willie Davis and Keith Cash both had their games elevated by Montana.

    But I’ve also seen guys that are undisputedly great struggle when they lost their top receivers. You have to look no further than Tom Brady this last year. He lost Welker and Hernandez. Other young guys had to step up. While they did ok, Brady did have his lowest QB rating in the last five years. Lowest average per catch in the last five years and lowest TD totals in the last seven years. This shouldn’t be the case though if you subscribe to Grants theory that a QB should make scrubs better.

    Reality is players have to have a “system” that fits them. That goes for just about every position. It scales from there. Brady struggled because he had marginal young receivers that were playing in a tight end centric offense. Kaep struggled last year because he didn’t have all the pieces and he was still learning. This year with a field stretching WR, a more passing friendly offense and a more explosive RB, there should be zero excuses.

    I guess I’m just bothered by Grant’s writeup and speaking in absolutes. That and his never ending boy crush on Tony Romo : )

    1. That guy says “Reality is players have to have a “system” that fits them”

      So I guess you finally understand why Alex Smith struggled all those years under the likes of Martz, Raye, Hostetler and company. Good to see you have finally taken your head out of your arse.

    2. Good stuff Bay,

      From what Grant is saying a “Great” can take any no name off the street and morph him into Jerry Rice. Yes we’ve seen Manning do it a few times and Brees with Colston. But who the heck is comparing Kap to Brees and Manning. And how do you know thos receivers wouldn’t have been good another pass-happy team. His definition of great is completely immeasurable, subjective, and irrelevant.

      1. Tom Brady turned Kenbrell Thompkins into a weapon last season. I doubt Kaepernick could have done that.

        Kaepernick often throws late — after a receiver has made his break — and his ball placement is poor, and he throws the ball as hard as he can. Extremely difficult to catch. Kaepernick relies heavily on receivers who have excellent hands and big catch radii — Boldin and Crabtree.

        1. Thomkins had 32 catches and 4 TD’s. Unstoppable. He had injury problems too, but he was not a weapon. Gronkowski was a weapon. Welker was a weapon. Hernandez was a weapon.

          Hard to figure out how Kap could be top ten in Rating and QBR and winning all these games if he’s always throwing the ball poorly.

          1. Defenses had to account for Thompkins. He averaged more than 14 yards per catch. Defenses hardly had to account for Kyle Williams when Kaepernick was quarterback.

            1. So you thinks it’s fair to compare Tom Brady at 36 years old and Kap? Tom Brady having to throw to Thompkins because of not having much else is comparable to Kap focusing on Crabs or Boldin instead of Williams when he was on the field?

            2. Grant:

              It’s not like defenses ever had to account for Kyle Williams. Moreover, Thompkins simply may be a better WR than Kyle Williams.

              rocket’s protests to the contrary, there are valid questions to ask when trying to figure out how much the 49ers should pay Kaepernick and when they should pay it, and those questions could lead to interesting discussions on this blog.

              If we’re debating the respective performances of Kenbrell Thompkins and Kyle Williams, we’ve drifted pretty far from such a discussion.

              1. Claude,

                My protests are mainly against the hypocrisy being used when looking at Kap’s body of work and how he compares to other QB’s.

                I understand the reluctance in wanting to pay one player 18 mill or whatever the figure might be, and I am no different. However there is no scenario in which he does not get this money from somebody. It’s going to happen whether people want to wait a year or not. That is why I’m pushing for it to happen now so that it’s a little easier to manage and you don’t face a possible Franchise designation.

                The other thing I’ve noticed is that many who are against it feel that way because they like the freedom the team has with a low paid QB. Again I understand that, but it’s fan point of view that doesn’t mesh with reality. You have to pay QB’s, some less than others, but they are going to get paid. There is no way around it. Seattle will face the same situation next year.

                I just refuse to put my head in the sand and make up arguments for why a QB who ranked in the top ten this year and led his team to a second NFCCG shouldn’t get what the market says he’s deserves.

              2. rocket:

                My protests are mainly against the hypocrisy being used when looking at Kap’s body of work and how he compares to other QB’s.

                I can sympathize with that. There has been plenty of hypocrisy on both sides of the Kaepernick discussion.*

                ————
                * I am not referring to you.

            3. Wow immense football knowledge. Thompkins 466 receiving yards were a tremendous sign of an average receiver made better. An even better indication were his ZERO catches in the playoffs…..

              What is it called when a person ( blog writer ) doesn’t admit they are wrong?

            1. Well then compare the last three years. Kaepernick won their head to head matchup even after his defense wilted and allowed a record breaking 2nd half comeback.
              Kaep is 4-2 in the last two years with a superbowl appearance and an NFC Championship this last year.

              Brady is 4-3 with a superbowl loss as well. Brady in his playoff losses averaged 12 point deficits in each loss. Kaep has never suffered double digit playoff losses.

              Bottom line we are very fortunate to have our guy. Only people that don’t think so are folks that don’t like his style, don’t like his personality or folks that write blogs that write for controversy to create blog hits.

              1. Sorry, but the whole winning in New England over Brady thing is kind of weak considering Mark Sanchez did the same thing in a playoff game while throwing 3 touchdowns.

              2. Jack I don’t care if you think it’s weak. It is what it is. And guess what, it’s going to happen. Ownership, management and coach are all in agreement that they want him locked up long term and paid. No one is walking around asking what Jack Hammer thinks.

              3. Weren’t you the guy who said the team took jersey sales into account when making personnel decisions? And suggested that Harbaugh made adjustments to the offensive play-calling in reaction to fan complaints?

              4. You’re embarrassing yourself Jack Hammer. You come off as a jilted lover. Why don’t you send your photo to Jim, Trent, Paarag and Jed? Don’t think they can handle the truth? Tell Mark he needs to take you out more….

              1. I think the saying goes something like this…If you can’t take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Or is it…If you can’t run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.

              2. I’m starting to think you’re related to the butt fumbler Hammer as often as you mention him….

              3. Or don’t give up on your QB after less than two season’s as a starter.
                Sorry, made that one up myself Hammer.

                All I know is that we were in the dark ages with Ericcson/Nolan/Singletary and the culture changed when Harbaugh took the helm and one of the players who has been a big factor in that winning culture is Kaep.
                I’m not proposing that the Org should break the bank to pay CK, but I feel that a contract be written/paid that works for both parties.
                After all, I trust CK to win more games than Sanchez although Sanchez’ playoffs stats are better.

              4. The butt fumble has taken it’s place among the all time iconic blunders in NFL History. Long live the Butt Fumble!

            2. He’s actually looking to get paid the way Brady has been paid for some time now. Brady took a little less on his last contract for more guaranteed but he was averaging 20 mill per for awhile I believe.

              The reason the number is as high as it is, is because of Romo and Cutler and others who have won nothing getting that kind of money. The market has exploded the last few years for QB contracts.

              1. The Romo-Cutler argument is hilarious. If you want your team to be 8-8, pay a non-great QB Romo-Cutler money.

              2. 2 years huh? Not very long. I hope they know what they’re doing. Is there anyway you two can talk some sense into the 49er front office?

              3. The Romo-Cutler argument is hilarious. If you want your team to be 8-8, pay a non-great QB Romo-Cutler money.

                That’s the reality of paying QB’s in the NFL Grant. There’s no way the Niners can tell Kap he’s not worth Romo or Cutler money.

                A team can stay in SB contention even after paying the QB huge money. Just look at your previous examples of Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers. All making in excess of 20 mill and their teams are perennial SB contenders. If the Niners believe as I do, that Kap has just scratched the surface and is only going to get better, then they also believe that like these other teams, they’ll be able to deal with it. The fact the cap is forecast to go up 16 mill over the next two years is a key component to this as well.

              4. Jack earlier in his article:

                “Back in 2009 and 2010, Sanchez’s first two seasons in NewYork, the Jets feature a defense that finished first and sixth in points against. The result was back to back trips to the AFC Championship game and a nice big deal for Sanchez. In 2011, after a number of changes on both offense and defense due in part to salary cap constraints the Jets scoring defense fell to 20th. Sanchez proved that he was unable to shoulder the load for the team and the end result was missing the playoffs with an 8-8 record.”

                Grant in this thread:
                “No, Kaepernick’s bloated contract wouldn’t cripple the franchise that quickly.”

                Jack following up on Grant’s comment:
                “Right. It will likely take a couple of years depending on how they configure the deal.”

                okay…I’m a little confuse here.

              5. Ricardo,

                The 49ers likely won’t feel the effects of a new deal for Kaepernick this season. It will likely be structured with a low cap number up front. The effects will start around year 2 or 3 as his cap number escalates.

              6. They’ll start feeling it this next off-season when it comes time to extend or resign key players.

              7. Yea, it’s not like team Baalke can keep replenishing the rosters key players through the draft with inexpensive rookies or sophomores …..

              8. That will depend on how good the draft is Razor. If it’s like 2011, then no problem. If it’s like 2012…need I say more?

              9. Jack,
                The reason I brought that up is because you used Sanchez’ situation in your article to argue that signing CK into an extension now will result into the closing of the window of opportunity in winning a championship. But using your own and Grant’s words, the demise of the team will not happen immediately.

              10. @MWD

                That’s his job dude, to keep the roster stocked with talent through the draft. Not to whiff out on an entire draft class. Fortunately for him, this draft is loaded and he’s got bullets to spare…..

              11. Ricardo,

                I said it would start the clock on the window closing.

                If you took it as closing immediately I wasn’t clear enough.

              12. @Hammer

                I took it as a bomb, tick, tick, tick, that was about to go off signifying the impending doom to the 49er franchise…..

              13. My point is that you can’t just build your roster through the draft Razor. It has disaster written all over it, just as throwing all your chips into free agency does. You need to do both and that takes money.

      1. Not talking about race. Talking aobut Italians and Irish. Lots of really good Italian QBs, some good Irish ones too…

  18. Some of the peculiar things that are prohibited while tailgaiting at Levi’s Stadium:

    • No throwing objects — liquid or solid, including footballs — or causing anything to “become airborne.”…..So I can’t play catch with my kids using a Nerf football???
    • No birds, fish, reptiles or animals….So little Johnny can’t bring “Nemo” his pet goldfish???
    • No music or any noise that can be heard from more than 50 feet away…….What? That’s over 10 feet closer than pitchers mound to home plate distance….My boombox can’t comprehend 50 ft.
    • tailgating will be allowed in more than half the lots……What? Not all of them??? What???
    • No free parking…….No kidding??? They really had to list that one?
    • No defecating anywhere except the bathroom…..No s#%t Sherlock!… I would hope so.
    • No beer kegs……Now that’s some real B.S. :-)

    Here’s the link with all the details:
    http://www.mercurynews.com/southbayfootball/ci_25416635/49ers-new-stadium-no-kegs-playing-catch-all

  19. Very good question Grant! I guess beauty is to the eye of the beholder. What makes a great QB is a mixture of the following qualities:

    Competitive nature
    A leader
    Great work ethic and Leads by example
    Resiliency
    Accuracy
    A play maker
    High football IQ
    A winner

    A great QB does not have to make others great but should put them in a position to become great based on their potential.

    I do agree that Kap needs to improve and he has not reached his full potential but in such a short time he has shown enough for me to have hope for his future success.

    Ultimately the 49ers organization/York, Jim H and Trent have all the faith to announce Kap as their future QB so regardless of all the anti Kap comments he will get paid like a great QB. Go Kap and Niners

  20. I think playing at a high level consistently, especially in the clutch, is what makes QB’s great! Of course that means both mentally and physically (i.e. mechanics). I don’t subscribe to that whole “makes other players better” BS. It sounds good when you’re talking about stuff of legends, but in reality great players need other great players in order for them to play at a high level all the time.

    Kaep isn’t great yet, but the potential is out the roof. Instead of training in Florida, he should go and the guys that Alex Smith went and saw. Those guys really helped him with his mechanics. Plus Kaep would spending his offseason with Drew Brees and Tom Brady. Not bad company at all.

  21. “….the answer was typical Harbaugh, “Back today competing for that very thing. So, no, I don’t understand windows….”

    so-o-o-o … the obvious question, here is ..

    Is he a “Mac guy”, instead ?

  22. I agree with you a 100 percent n this, Has great as Kaep looks at times, He struggles if his ain payers are missing when the truly great QB’s adat and make others around them step up. Like Brady, Brees and Peyton! I even see cutler and Newton make more with Less, But I still think back to the championship game and the niner o was dead in the water except for Kap running wild, Darned if you give him the money , darned if you don’t!

  23. It’s all economics. It’s not what you think he’s worth, it’s what the market dictates. And unfortunately, Romo and Cutler are making 18 mil a year. It’s also hard to argue that Kaepernick A. Isn’t better than them B. Doesn’t have more potential than them or C. Isn’t more valuable to his respective team than they are to theirs… Kaepernick was a big part of why the Niners got to the super bowl, as well as got to the NFC championship game this past year. BUT, he’s also a big part of why they lost both of those games. No doubt there’s ambiguity about how “Elite” or “Great” a QB Kaepernick is. There is more clarity in regards to who he is comparable to among other “Elite” and highly paid quarterbacks. It seems like he might not be a “100 million” type quarterback, but logic and market value point to him being a “90-95 million” type quarterback. We’re talking 5 years at 18 mil vs. 5 years at 20 mil. And for the record, I would take Kaepernick over Stafford any day of the week and Stafford is making almost 18 mil…

    1. It’s not in the 49ers interest to trade their depth for Kaepernick, who couldn’t win the Super Bowl even when he had the depth.

  24. This is the “system” QB argument that is maddening, plus there is no metric for measuring “makes others better”. This is clearly a straw man argument that is to rip Kaepernick. If he does poorly, he’s a bad QB. If he’s does well, it’s the “system. There are 2 separate arguments that have become muddled and people get confused/angry. The first is Kaepernick’s contract. The market has shown that he is probably going to get a number starting around $18 mil. Can he get more? Sure. Can he get less? Sure. The fact of the matter is that he is on his first “big” contract and is going to get paid. Now, what’s his value? The market is driven by fear of the alternatives on the market. If you don’t want Kaep at $18million, do you want McCown or Vick a $5mil /year? There IS no middle market. The Casells, Glennon, and Foyles are either still under contract, or don’t reach FA. If you have a good quarterback, you HAVE to overpay because if you let them walk, you have to either sign a bad QB or try to get lucky with a rookie. Which leads me to the second part…
    QB’s get too much credit and take too much blame for wins and losses. It is a critical position, but a QB can’t carry a team by himself to a SB. There is a sliding scale that must accommodate weaknesses. Strong/weak system; strong/weak talent; strong/weak defense; strong weak QB play. This equation leads to success and failure of the franchise. The big issue is the salary cap. If you haven’t struck gold with a elite QB, you have to have the a strong defense, offensive system, and offensive talent. That’s where the Niners are pre Kaep/Harbaugh. They are now stuck in the gray area between sub-elite QB play to compensate for an ongoing talent drain, but having to pay for it.
    Is Kaep great or elite? No, but it is not fair to say that he is bad. There are probably 25 teams that would LOVE to have Kaep. Is Kaep going to get paid? Yes, whether it’s from the Niners or someone else. The Niners would be dumb to let him walk though.

      1. Could do that. I think there are fewer good QB’s out there than you think. If it was that easy, there wouldn’t be so many teams looking for starting QB’s let alone backups. I think it is good policy to draft and develop a QB every couple of years to spin off for draft picks or replace an over priced, under performing vet.

    1. Right on the money Jon. “Makes those around him better” is the latest way to criticize Kap without having the statistical evidence to do so.

    2. Jon,
      best post I’ve seen yet on the subject. Real Niner fans will be fired up that we locked Kaep up. The rest well, they have agendas.

  25. Jimmy Johnson, now a Sunday morning pre-game commentator on Fox says the #1 element he evaluates in rating a QB is not how many big plays the QB makes, but how many bad plays he makes. He wants QBs who don’t turn over the ball or make bone-head plays because those are the situations that end up costing a team games.

  26. Still and all $18M annually for a football player shows just how twisted our society has become. Bad priorities whe 90 percent of the so-called fans cannot even afford to go to the new stadium.

    1. Maybe I should mention there is a Quarterbacking video with Bill Walsh and Joe Montana included in the article that is worth watching on its own.

    2. Good article tough in deference to the theme here I would suggest skipping to bottom to find out what makes a QB great according to Bill Walsh.

  27. The way QB’s get paid, it is the guarantee more then the total. Don’t think there will be any QB’s, actually collecting on $100 million. That being said Kaep will have a new contract and it will be in the $20 million per season range. Kaep is better then Romo and Cutler. Whether he deserves it or not, does not really manner or our opinions. It is reality.

    1. If Romo gets more than that, Neal ..
      there isn’t an argument in the world to convince
      me Kaep doesn’t deserve it !

      (not a valid one, anyhoo !)

      1. The three amigo’s, York, Baalke and Harbaugh think very high of Kaep, it does not matter what we think. Yes you can say Harbaugh and Kaep can’t finish but we don’t sign the checks.

  28. Very shallow analysis Grant. Looks like you were sitting at a bar with the fellas and needed to get out a 100 words so you typed this up on your phone while waiting for the next daquiri. (I have you pegged as a daquiri guy.)

    What does it even mean that he makes the players around him better? How would a QB do that? By throwing a catchable ball? By scrambling? By remaining calm under pressure? By audibling into the right play? Your answer to your question is way too general to be meaningful. A great QB is a field general that finds ways to make plays under pressure. A great QB is an expert at reading defenses and understanding ways to beat the strategies the defense is throwing at him. A great QB commands the admiration and respect of his teammates so that they will follow him in good times and difficult times. A great QB comes through in crunch time and seems to always make plays to win games – especially playoff games. CK is a good QB but he’s not great. I’d be leary of giving him $100MM because he just hasn’t entered into the upper echelon of NFL QB’s. I’m happy he’s our starting QB and I think he has a bright future but he needs to work and focus on the important things to make the next step in his development.

    1. couldn’t have said it better, Houston … but, you gotta admit
      this topic is a darn sight better than the previous three..

      and not to mention.. it offers the opportunity for everyone
      to give their opinions …
      (and you know what they say about opinions)

      besides … I got Grant pegged as a Randy Cross kinda guy ..

      1. The topic was fine but the author either lacks the knowledge or work ethic to make a strong meaningful argument.

  29. seeing Mister Harbaw at the NFL owners meetings…
    will someone please buy him a long-sleeve shirt…
    with buttons on it (collar, cuffs, etc.)
    and to complete the “new look” … a sport coat.
    Yes, he can skip the tie (for now).
    But those T-shirts and sweat shirts and khaki pants
    make him look like an adolescent,
    a young punk who stands out like a sore thumb.

    Look around, Jim… get a clue, willya…???
    Sarah already said it a million times.
    Miah reached the end of her rope. Wake up, coach.

  30. First, a great QB cannot be fairly measured until his career is over.
    Second, a great QB should be measured by his winning percentage after his career is over.

    Montana made J.Rice and J.Taylor look good, but those two receivers also made JM look good as well.

    T.Bradshaw made L.Swann and J.Stallworth look good, but those two also made Bradshaw look good as well.

    D.Marino made his WR’s look good but that never won him a SB.
    Brady has done a great job making no-name WR’s look good over the last couple of years, but he has no SB win to show for it.

    Conclusion (at least for me), the adage of a QB achieving greatness by making others better around him is very debatable at best and definitely not a slam dunk!

  31. On a slightly different topic, does Allen going to the Bears rather than the Seahawks now make the Seahawks off-season less impressive for those saying the 49ers weren’t doing enough to “keep up”?

    By my count they’ve lost a few starters and key role players and replaced them with… um… who exactly?

    1. Maybe they meant the Niners weren’t keeping up with the Seahawks in the FA loss category Scooter? Yeah that must be it.

    2. They still have TE Finley who hasn’t signed because he needs to be medically cleared first Scooter. The Seahawks have also been one of the better teams when it comes to the draft, especially in the 2012 draft when every other team all but struck out.

      1. So they are improving by letting go a bunch of starters and role players and signing a crocked TE, and replacing them with players from previous draft classes…? What a crazy notion!

        I wonder why those people complaining about the 49ers not getting a big name (IMPACT) FA (not you MidWest) are unable to see the same possibility for the 49ers… Carradine, Lemonier, McDonald, Patton, Lattimore, Dial, Moody – all those guys should see bigger roles this year, and some will be counted on to make an impact.

        And this is why it is so important not to throw away draft picks this year for one (IMPACT) draft pick – while the 49ers will look to get some contribution from the 2014 draft class this year, it is in 2015 and beyond the 2014 draft class will be counted on to replace players and become key contributors.

  32. http://espn.go.com/blog/san-francisco-49ers/post/_/id/6174/kaepernicks-contract-status-is-clear-hes-getting-paid

    Remember the naysayers when the La Canfora story broke from the combine? I remember being ridiculed and challenged for believing it. Someone suggested the agent for Kaepernick was behind it. Funny thing is, I said back in February the 49ers knew Kaepernick was their future, and they would try and sign him before the 2014 campaign commenced….

              1. I am Razor, but the current questions about Kaep don’t have anything to do with that obvious foot injury he had during the first half of the season.
                Like I have said before, I back Kaep 100% just like I did when Smith was here. That said, I will be fair and judge Kaep on what I see, both the good and the bad.

  33. A great quarterback must be able to rise to the occasion and put his team in a position to win. That player must be able to earn the trust and confidence of his teammates by demonstrating some of the following traits:

    - be consistent
    - minimize mistakes
    - make those around him better
    - flash the skills (i.e. clock management, accurate throws, ability to move the ball, sound decisions) that put him in position for such a payday

    No QB can do this all the time, but the great ones do it more often. The question is, can Kaep be one of them?

  34. If the Niners were to try to trade Kap do you think they could get a high No 1 and 2 draft choices for him or a couple of Pro-Bowl caliber players plus a mid-range or lower No. 1 draft choice?
    I think they could. I think the Browns, the Jets, the Bills, the Raiders, the Vikings, the Jags and maybe other teams would do that deal in a heartbeat. I think teams with established QB’s would seriously think about it. This in my mind means other NFL teams think Kap is a very valuable asset and worth a lot.

  35. So many here today have listed all the traits that make up a great QB. Let me add a great coach early in their careers. Players how have had less than great coaches have bad habits that last throughout their careers and those habits always come to the fore when the game is in its most critical point.
    Spaceborn posted an artical with a video of Coach Walsh working on Montana’s footwork. The same footwork in practice as well as in the game, Great!
    Why does Kaepernick still make basic footwork errors?

  36. There is no need to extend Kaep this offseason from a financial/ cap point of view nor from fear of losing him next year. Kaep won’t be giving them a discount – he already believes he’s top 5 – and the team will be in a worse position against the cap this year as a result. This is important, as I believe any room under the cap they can keep this year will be added to next year’s maximum cap figure.

    They likely can also structure any contract they give him next offseason to be equivalent or less than what he’d be paid (against the cap) in 2015, 2016, 2017, etc., if they extend him now (Jack, allforfunnplay and I had a long discussion about this and showed how it can work).

    The only reason for extending Kaep right now is from a man management point of view – show the team they are all in with Kaep and they believe. I’m not against that approach per se, but people suggesting this extension has to happen now to save pennies in the future I think are off the mark. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – the ramifications of extending him now and getting it wrong outweigh the ramifications of not extending him now and finding out he is worth being paid like a top 5 QB.

    1. Reasons, treasons’. It’s a done deal Scooter, unless it’s not. All reports indicate the front office has made their decision. Jed has made public the decision. All the dissenters are on record in here. You’ve all had your say, and the ones being paid much, much more than you all combined have disagreed with your assessment. You can’t possibly be that narcissistic to believe that they are all wrong can you? Let’s move on…

        1. @Claude Were you the one who painted the portrait of the La Canfora story as propaganda fed by Kaepernicks’ agent? What kind of spin do you have for Jed?

          1. Razor:

            Nothing the 49ers said this week contradicts my assertion that the earlier LaCanfora story was merely his take on the situation (and not the reporting of anything the 49ers has said), likely based upon a briefing from the agent.

            As for the current statements, there’s really nothing to spin. Jed has said what Jed has said, but you’ll notice that no one is announcing the signing of a contract or even the imminent signing of a contract. Until that happens (or doesn’t), we won’t know what dollar value the 49ers place on Kaepernick.

              1. March 25, 2014 2:00 pm
                49ers want Colin Kaepernick deal before training camp
                by Larry Hartstein | CBSSports.com
                49ers general manager Trent Baalke said he wants to work out a long-term deal with quarterback Colin Kaepernick before training camp, reports CSNBayArea.com. “We’re going to work extremely hard, very diligently, in trying to get something done prior to training camp. That’s the objective right now,” Baalke said at the NFL owners meetings.

                The team and Kaepernick’s agent, Scott Smith, are expected to meet soon to talk specifics. Kaepernick is entering the final year of his rookie deal and is scheduled to make $1.073 million. He could seek as much as $20 million annually in his new contract.

                You too Claude….

              2. Bay:

                Feel free to explain how Razor smacked me down. You like to make a lot of conclusory claims, but you never seem able to provide the supporting facts.

                Razor:

                Again, those are nice words, but they don’t say that the 49ers and Kaepernick are close to signing a contract or even agreeing on the numbers. If Lacanfora is correct that Kaepernick won’t take anything less than $20 million/year, then I wouldn’t be so sure that a contract is getting signed anytime soon.

              3. Claude,

                “We hope we get it done soon. If we don’t, I don’t think it’s going to be acrimonious.”

                This is toward the end of York’s comments, and you’re right that the contract is not yet a done deal.

                York and company have done a real nice subtle job of putting the pressure of the negotiations on Kaepernick’s camp.

              4. Jack:

                That’s the line that gave me pause. Why bring up the possibility of the deal not getting done?

              5. I saw that too Jack and Claude. It leads me to believe that the negotiations will be tabled until the 2015 off season if an agreement is not reached before TC.

      1. How have they disagreed with my assessment exactly razor?

        Re-signing Kaep shows they believe in him. I have never said they don’t, or shouldn’t. I have merely said that it is a risk that doesn’t need to be taken. The only thing that extending him now does is show the 49ers don’t believe it is that big a risk, and they believe in their guy. Good.

        We’ve had this conversation a few times and you keep taking my comments to suggest I’m anti-Kaep. I will once again say I am not. I still think he could be something special. All of my comments about the extension have purely been to say they don’t need to make that commitment just yet, and the idea they would be saving money against the cap in the future by re-signing him now is bogus. That is all.

        1. How have they disagreed with my assessment exactly razor?

          The only thing that extending him now does is show the 49ers don’t believe it is that big a risk, and they believe in their guy. Good.

          That’s a fake question right? You’re kidding me?

          1. I’m still not understanding the issue here razor…?

            Extending Kaep shows they believe in him. I have never said they don’t or shouldn’t…?

            1. You said there’s no need to sign him. You cited the financial reasons. Risks, etc. They disagree. Pretty simple really mate….

              1. Yes, I said if they extend him now they are showing they don’t believe the risk is that great. Good.

                Doesn’t mean there is a need to sign him. I’ve been pretty consistent saying they don’t ‘need’ to extend him now, and that the financial benefits people are talking about aren’t as big an issue as is made out.

              2. Why would they sign him if they did not feel the “need” or compulsion to? Does the need arise from their love for him? Is the need rooted in showing him their love?

              3. As I said in my original post in this thread, the only reason for doing it now is a man-management reason.

                Alternatively, you could look at it as freeing up the use of the franchise tag next year to try and keep Crabtree. In that sense there is a real ‘financial’ or ‘contract’ based reason for doing it.

              4. So the only reason they’re doing it now is a man-management reason, and for no other reason, but maybe to free up a franchise designation next year?

              5. Yes, but he needs to improve in some key areas.

                It also depends on what kind of demands you are willing to meet and where on the team you are willing to sacrifice in order to meet said demands.

              6. “Keep him happy, if he’s merited the happiness, correct?”

                If they are confident in him moving forward, sure. That would be the reason for doing it now – they are confident in him and want to keep their players happy. Man management reasons, not financial. Paraag’s a smart guy, I’m pretty sure he could work out a deal next year that would have pretty much the same or less cap ramifications in any given year.

              7. If they are, and then in the next sentence, they are confident in him. Yes Scooter, they are all in with Colin Kaepernick. I think we can all agree on that. As a fan, I have no choice but to push all my chips in as well, until I see the devastation prophesied by Grant and Jack begin to manifest itself upon the franchise….

              8. Oh absolutely – once they’ve gone in a direction there is no point worrying about what might have been.

                At the moment this is an interesting point of discussion though. They’ve not yet put all their chips in that basket – until that contract is signed they haven’t gone all in. If (or when) they do extend him, then I’ll have some reservations about it, but I’ll support the move in the knowledge that better minds have full confidence in Kaep.

              9. I extend my hand to you Scooter, your interests don’t conflict with mine. If my tone was condescending, apologies….

        2. I would add, that once a decision has been made within an organization, the time for dissension should end and all parties should work together to help the decision become a success….

        3. Scooter,

          They will save money against the cap by signing him now because his price will only go up next year when other teams are in contention for his services. The benefit for the team is that Kap and his agent probably don’t like the idea of him making half of what the backup is this year, so in order to get him some more this year, they make take less later. There is also the very real possibility of injury that I don’t think Kap or his agent want to take. Again for that insurance, you might get them to take a little less.

          The most obvious reason to get it done now is because next year you have a gun to your head. You either work out a deal that is less favorable than one you would get this year, or you have to franchise him. Neither option is more attractive than getting it done now.

          I keep reading about how it’s a gamble and what if he regresses, but there is no evidence that either are anything to worry about. He’s getting criticized for his play right now and he’s led them to a SB and NFCCG. He’s going to improve the more he plays and learns how to operate consistently in the pocket. It’s not like he’s going to turn into JaMarcus Russell.

          1. You may not have seen the posts between affp, Jack and I, but I think Jack and I pretty clearly showed that if they wait to re-sign him until next year it isn’t difficult to keep Kaep’s cap numbers (try saying that three times fast!) equivalent to or below what they would be paying him over the life of a contract if they extend him now, even if they pay him quite a bit more overall.

            For example, cap figures for a situation of a 5 year contract, one deal done now (4 year extension), one deal done next year. The extension pays $91M over 5 years, the contract signed next year pays $109M over 5 years (+$1M this year).

            2014:
            - Pay Now: $7M
            - Pay Later: $1M

            2015:
            - Pay Now: $14M
            - Pay Later: $13M

            2016:
            - Pay Now: $20M
            - Pay Later: $20M

            2017:
            - Pay Now: $24M
            - Pay Later: $24M

            2018:
            - Pay Now: $26M
            - Pay Later: $26M

            2019:
            - Pay Now: off contract
            - Pay Later: $26M

              1. @Jack Hammer

                You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

            1. Scooter,

              They would add 5 years after this season on the deal; not 4. That’s where the difference would come in. In other words, he’ll be signed for 6 more seasons – this year plus 5 more. The fact he makes only a million this year means that 91 million figure you put up can be over 6 years, not 5 if they work out a way to increase his money for this season.

              1. Scooter,

                Sure they can, but they don’t get the benefit of the last year of this deal. That is the key to all of this. Kap only making 1 mill this year allows them to spread the new contract over 6 years for the same money they would be paying for 5 years. Now I don’t know how much they can give him this season but anything they can add to his pay this year means less against the cap in future years, along with the fact a deal signed now will be less in total value than a deal signed a year from now.

              2. “Sure they can, but they don’t get the benefit of the last year of this deal.”

                By not extending him now they get the maximum benefit of the last year of his current deal. Extend him for 6 years for the same money you would pay him for five… so what is the benefit? You still have him for 6 years for the same money. They don’t have the cap room to make his cap hit particularly large this year anyway, so even if they did make it the same money over 6 years they would pay for over 5 years by signing him next year the cap saving in future years will be minimal at best. And that doesn’t take into account they could just sign him for six years next season instead, and keep the cap hits between 2015 and 2019 the same as any extension they did this year.

  37. Razor
    In the top 5 at least.
    Some people fall in love with college prospects thinking they might be better than the player the team has. The new toy is so appealing, but the reality is it might not be any where near as good.

    1. right !
      Al Davis’s man-crush on JaMarcus Russel .. as well as
      Jerry Jones’s one for Romo ..
      (to name just two)

  38. god Grant you are a joke, seriously you write horrendous articles and you clearly dont watch enough game film to make legit assessments. Leave the good stuff to Matt M and Matt Barrows. They at least make sense when they put out articles, good lord.

    1. Any mention of Grant Cohn on any other blog incites ridicule on the source. I merely passed on the information of how he reported Lattimore walks with a limp…..

  39. Man watching one of my many recordings on dynasty week featuring our 49ers. Watching the 98 playoff game vs GB the game that finally ended their mini dynasty they had with holmgren and favre. Looking back at the team with names that are hardly mentioned like junior Bryant, Greg Clark, Kirby, deese, mc quarters as a returner. We had a solid team a team that I truly believe would have went to the Super Bowl if Hearst didn’t go down vs ATL. Now whether they would have beaten Denver is another story, BUT it’s great watching these classic games and the struggles and things we did well back then. I think sometimes we forget even with Joe it wasn’t always perfect. My DVR might have 1 minute remaining after this week. These games in HD are far better than my old VHS tapes. Lol

  40. What WR do you think will be used in the April Fool’s article this year? Here are some possibilities:
    Josh Gordon
    DeSean Jackson
    T.Y. Hilton
    Dwayne Bowe
    Mike Wallace
    Torrey Smith

  41. Grant sorry but it’s pretty obvious you’re just butt hurt that Kaep won’t treat you and your Dad the way you think you both deserve to be treated. You carry on and on with your anti-Kaep agenda because you don’t like his personality and you continue coming up with lame critiques like “he doesn’t make other players better” because you feel slighted by Kaep’s terse answers to media questions.
    If just two throws at the end of the last two seasons resulted in different results, (Super Bowl wins), would Kaep have qualified as “making other players better”? Yep, two Super Bowls in two years with at least 1 ring and probably two, and all this nonsense would just be moot. Just 2 throws!

  42. Of interest:
    Atlanta is strongly considering moving up, maybe even to the top pick.
    Houston really like Bortles.

        1. I’d easily trade both of the second rounds picks and next year’s first round pick for him if he fell to seven. The bad part is that we’d have to trade Crabtree if we did get Watkins somehow.

  43. I’m no judge of WR talent. Heck, I loved Jenkins highlights. Rarely did I see a player so effortlessly turn to catch a long pass without slowing down. But none of those highlights showed him beating press coverage. He flopped.

    This year I’ve seen so many receiver highlights it makes my head spin. Tons of athletic talent to be had in the first 4 rounds.

    Lots of great 40 times and leaps and lbs… but who among them is the workout fanatic? The film study geek? The tough, good attitude player that would make a perfect understudy to Boldin?

      1. That should read that the intangibles element is one of the reasons I like Beckham. I wasn’t very clear. Beckham is by all reports a very hard worker with a strong competitive attitude.

          1. Yes, very comparable to Tyrann Mathieu. He’ll need to go somewhere that will play him to his strengths, but in the right situation he’ll be a tempo setter and big playmaker for the defense. I think he’ll excel playing primarily in a robber role/ slot CB.

        1. Thanks for the info. With all the athleticism in this year’s crop of WRs (many still very young, like Evans who is only 20), the mental aspect is by far the larger variable.

    1. “(I want to) see how he throws the football, more how they throw than the look in their eye,” Harbaugh said.

      Harbaugh takes a dump on another bayareafanatic piece of “wisdom.”

        1. Razor:

          That’s a different eye test.

          Back in 2011, while the 49ers were on their way to a 13-3 season with Smith as their QB, bay kept insisting that Smith was a lousy QB and that the 49ers could not win games with him. As other commenters consistently disproved his fact-based arguments, bay shifted to arguments that weren’t fact-based and thus weren’t so easy to disprove. My favorite was when he told us that he knew Smith was incapable of winning big games because, from his seat in the stands, bay could not see any fire in Smith’s eyes. As you would expect, he took a lot grief for that one.

          Anyway, I had forgotten about that exchange until Harbaugh’s statement reminded me of it.

          1. Instead of Claude Ball, why not Claude Nuts. Since you love to ride certain guys nuts. Like mine for instance. ” Not that there is anything wrong with that “.

            Let me put it this way, Alex Smith in no way shape or form has as much fire in his eyes as Colin Kaepernick and that is why one is here as the starter for my San Francisco 49ers. He is about to get paid $18-20 million a year worth of fire in his eyes.
            Smith on the other hand occasionally had fire in his eyes but hot consistently enough to convince Harbaugh and company to keep him around. Even after the NFC Championship game the 49ers only offered up $8 million a season and were willing to let him walk based on the lack of negotiations.
            So Claude if you want to make assumptions go ahead, but I can say this, the results of who stayed, who left and how much money was doled out supports my claims not yours. Stick to copying and pasting stats Claude Nuts it’s all you are good at.

            1. bay:

              Wow, in one comment, you managed to misrepresent your own arguments, my arguments and the 49ers’ actions. That’s an impressive trifecta. You’ve finally found something you do well. Congratulations.

              You do realize, don’t you, that balls and nuts are the same thing(s)?

              Don’t worry, I have no interest in riding your nuts (there you go again with the homoerotic fantasies). Besides, I don’t think there’s any room down there for that; your Kaepernick pillow would get in the way.

              1. Claude,
                From Bay’s nose bleed seats he can see and know all. Don’t you know that already?
                Alex went to a pretty crappy KC team with a lot less talent then the Niners had and he proved a lot of people wrong.
                Colin took one of the most talented teams in the league and needed to rely on Gore’s 30 year old legs half the season and when called upon to make the pass to save the game, he never did it. Sure he can run like the wind but end of the day, the results were the same.
                Just because someone is going to pay him whatever amount Bay thinks he should get doesn’t mean he deserves it.
                Do you think Jay Cutler is worth 20 million? What about Flacco? He sucked big time.

  44. Razor,
    I checked out the mock draft you posted the link to (Baltimore Sun) . I hope to God it doesn’t go that way. I think Kyle Fuller’s an okay pick and I know we need another 1st round talent in our secondary, (not sure Fuller’s the best though) but I will put my foot through my TV if I see the Rams get Mike Evans AND the Seahawks get Kelvin Benjamin!! Hopefully that B. Sun reporter’s got his head up his arse, right?

    1. If this is all true, and all indications point in that direction then shame on the Niners. This is another pitiful example of not keeping their word. It seems in this New World we live in people don’t keep their word, however sometimes/rarely circumstances prevent one from keeping their word. Without ones word one has nothing and this is a tragic example of that. Niners do the right thing and take care of business. I know its only soccer but your word is your word. I have rarely agreed with Mr. Cohn on anything but he is absolutely correct in dissing the Niners over this, (That is If the facts are correct).

    2. First of all it’s a typical BS title, you really think the kids are the ones that are disappointed? Give me a break they don’t care it’s the parents that are making a stink but does the title sound as biting towards the team when it’s changed to “49ers disappoint suburban soccer moms…” somehow that just doesn’t carry the same weight even though it’s far more accurate. I wonder why Lowell chose the other title that doesn’t really convey the truth?

      It seems clear. The letter from York only says that they were “proposing” to look into the creation of other fields. Does that promise anything? Does that say that once they’re done looking into it that they’ll actually build them? Nope. Is it likely that the league simply read that letter and then assumed far too much? Yep.

      1. “Kelvin Benjamin is two months older than Josh Gordon. Imagine what Gordon would have done in the ‘Noles offense in 2013 and then reevaluate how “dominant” Benjamin’s performance actually was.”

        1. Gordon is a monster, scary to think about.

          Interesting how young Cooks and Robinson are. Also interesting that Matthews is younger than Lee.

          The author compares Robinson to Dez Bryant. That’s bold.

            1. I think the Robinson to Dez Bryant comparison comes from their ability in the open field – both a re good runners in space – and their disinterested attitude when the play isn’t going to them.

              But I think the better comparison for Robinson is Crabtree. In particular the quick feet into and out of cuts to create separation.

          1. I was hoping Von Miller or Peterson would fall to the 49ers. When Baalke chose Aldon Smith I was ho-hum.

            I felt much better when I saw highlights, showing Aldon dominating Colorado O-linemen. I was downright giddy when I realized he was only 19 at the time.

            1. Doesn’t it concern you that Moncrief had 60-or-fewer receiving yards in more than half of his games last season?

              1. It didn’t concern me when AJ Jenkins had no catches in an entire season. Why should I worry about…

                Seriously, I’m compiling an age list (tough going when on dial-up). Almost done. Scads of 20-something WRs in the draft.

              2. Not really Grant. What concerns me about Moncrief is he so regularly body catches the ball. A great way to neutralise any height and separation advantage he gains. Question has to be asked – is it simply a case of bad hands, or a case of poor coaching?

                If it can be coached out of him and he starts to trust his hands then he could be pretty darn good. If it is a case of just plain bad hands, he’ll be a guy with incredible workout numbers that flatters to deceive.

  45. “HARBAUGH: Yeah, it’s like Sisyphus, all the way to the top and then the season ends and the boulder rolls all the way back to the bottom. Then we’re pushing up again, we’re going to start pushing that rock, that boulder, see if we can’t get it to the very top.”

    This statement by Harbaugh is very ironic given the fate of the 49ers during his first three seasons.

  46. Manziel might not be any good at the NFL level or he might be special but he got major bonus points in my book by doing his pro day in his shoulder pads and helmet. That’s balls.

    1. Yea Coffee did you see him sweating a mid west thunderstorm in that Texas heat. He put the pressure on himself with the gear, cones, under center hikes, rakes chasing him, short and deep passes, etc.and still performed exceptionally well. You cannot help be impressed.
      Contrast that to T Bridgwater who skipped the combine to show off at his pro day and then sort of stunk that up looking like he really wasn’t that serious about it.
      That you have a bad pro day and look like you are not taking it too seriously is not likely to effect your stock —- that is unless — you previously did not go to the Senior Bowl (underclassman) skipped the combine and finally pointed everyone to your pro day for the demonstration of your NFL skills.
      I suggest to you that Manziel with his performance today just moved ahead of Bridge in the water.

  47. Round 1 Pick 11 (TENN): Sammy Watkins, WR, Clemson (A)
    Round 2 Pick 24: Stephon Tuitt, DE, Notre Dame (A)
    Round 2 Pick 29: Jeremiah Attaochu, OLB, Georgia Tech (A-)
    Round 3 Pick 13: Bashaud Breeland, CB, Clemson (A-)
    Round 3 Pick 30: Jeremy Hill, RB, LSU (A)
    Round 3 Pick 36 (COMP): Deone Bucannon, SS, Washington State (A)
    Round 4 Pick 29: Arthur Lynch, TE, Georgia (A)
    Round 5 Pick 30: Logan Thomas, QB, Virginia Tech (D)
    Round 7 Pick 27: James Stone, C, Tennessee (C)
    Round 7 Pick 28: Jeff Janis, WR, Saginaw Valley (A)
    Round 7 Pick 30: Cairo Santos, K, Tulane (B+)

      1. First Pick. Crabtree wasn’t supposed to drop either. I never thought the 49ers had a shot at him. I agree, highly unlikely he’s available. Thanks…..

          1. Crabtree, like Watkins was considered the best WR in college football. Unlike Watkins he was a 2 time Belitnikoff award winner.

          1. Crabtree was known as a clutch playmaker and considered one of the best all-around football players in the draft. He was coming off injury yes, but didn’t earn his diva reputation until his contract holdout.

  48. I don’t recall who it was but I was “debating” some idiot on this blog about the media over-hyping the Michael Sam story. I used articles written about how gay teammates were universally accepted on teams as long back as the Oilers in the 80′s and 90′s. I don’t believe Sams is a hero in any stretch of the imagination and he hasn’t done anything other than make himself a distraction. Not sure which idiot I was arguing with but here’s another article to help you get a clue…

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/27/troy-vincent-says-gay-teammates-were-known-not-a-problem/

    1. Its just he media and society over-playing this issue. That’s just the theme today. Society wants to shove equality and tolerance down our throats, which is ironic in itself. If nothing else this will get him his 15 mins of fame and maybe some endorsements here and there.

      1. Leo what a horrible society we have that advocates for tolerance and equality. I’m guessing you are not advocating for intolerance and inequality.

        1. Definitely not…Im all for tolerance and equality…but I don’t love it shoved force fed to me and my kids…if that makes sense

          Equality shouldn’t come at the cost of someone else’s rights is what I’m getting at.

            1. Hey Claude,

              I know this is hardly the template for this type of discussion, but hey why not.

              I’m not talking about Sam’s case specifically, but more about the equality movement now. For instance one case in particular comes to mind. There was a Christian couple in Oregon who owned a cake shop. A lesbian couple wanted there wedding cake made there. The Christian couple respectfully declined the business, saying it goes against their belief. The lesbian couple sued, won, and the business was shut down because the Christian couple denied there business.

              So since when is equal rights one sided? Is it only allowed for one group but not the other? Why is one belief better than the other?

              That’s what I was getting at. I try not to judge and show love to all, but that just seems unfair to me. But its just the direction society is going.

              I guess I’ll shut up now. No offense was meant to anyone.

              1. Leo if the courts had’nt stood with the gay couple do’nt you think it would have opened the door for every redneck racist business owner in america to refuse service to anyone other than good christian white folks and say it was against their religon. I think its called the slippery slope.

              2. Oldcoach, you’re simply wrong. There is no slippery slope. Discrimination based on race is against the law in the US and there is no religious protection of racial bigotry. You throw out the redneck term and you couldn’t possibly be more clueless about reality. A study just came out and the most segregated schools in the country are in New York. Racial issues are not reserved for rednecks or southerners. The worst race problems in the country are outside the south and spewing the normal geographic bigotry does nothing more than mask real issues.

    2. Houston:

      I was that idiot, and, please forgive the football metaphor, you’re trying to move the goalposts. You didn’t just argue that the media is over-hyping the Sam story, (they are). You also argued that gays are universally accepted in all parts of society in all parts of the country, which was and still is nonsense. You also argued that it is no big deal for Sam to acknowledge his sexuality publicly because there was this one team once that had two players who were thought to be gay by some of their teammates. Of course, those players weren’t openly gay to the public at large, but why let that fact slow you down when you have a sweeping generalization to make?

      I also posted links to numerous articles demonstrating that not every team and not every player in the NFL has been or is as tolerant as the teams and players discussed in the two articles you linked.* I pointed you to the Johnathan Martin report, to Chris Culliver’s comments, and to the statements made by multiple active players indicating that having gay players in the locker room will create issues. I take it that you didn’t bother to read those articles.

      It’s not that you don’t think Sam is a hero that’s objectionable; I agree that the term “hero” gets thrown around too casually by a lot of people these days. What’s objectionable is your insistence that Sam is not doing anything unprecedented, and that he will be universally welcomed, when the facts demonstrate the exact opposite.

      ——–
      * Of course, the articles you linked don’t contain statements from the gay players themselves acknowledging that their “openly known” sexuality created no issues in the locker room. I’m curious to hear those players’ views on the tolerance in their locker rooms.

  49. Harbaugh said yesterday he’s going to work out David Fales.

    Remember, Harbaugh liked Tony Romo coming out of college.

  50. A bunch of babies in this draft. Good because there are players that will get a wee bit bigger, maybe even faster.

    Tricky because some will mature, while others will turn into over-praised brats. Some will they develop in their contract years, effectively using the team that drafted them as a farm squad till the big payday arrives.

    Bradin Cooks September 25, 1993, age 20
    Donte Moncrief, August 6, 1993, age 20
    Mike Evans August 21, 1993, age 20
    Allen Robinson, August 24, 1993, age 20
    Sammy Watkins, June 14, 1993, age 20

    Davante Adams, December 24, 1992, age 21
    Odell Beckham, Jr. November 5, 1992, age 21
    Jarvis Landry November 28, 1992, age 21
    Jordan Matthews, July 16, 1992, age 21
    Paul Richardson, April 13, 1992, age 21

    Martavis Bryant December 20, 1991, age 22
    Marqise Lee, November 25, 1991 age 22
    Jeff Janis June 9, 1991, age 22

    Kelvin Benjamin, February 5, 1991, Age 23
    Jared Abbrederis December 17, 1990, age 23

        1. I don’t know Coffee. I think all of the excitement over a guy completing 64 of 66 throws off a script, against air is a bit much. Watch his tape. Can he do that at the pro level?

          1. I’m not making his case for him but I know what these kinds of performances can do for players stock especially his decision to do it in shells. If any of the top QB needy teams were on the fence about him this kind of display could make up their decision.

            1. In my opinion, if a team needs a performance like this to make up their decision it should surprise no one that they are drafting in the top 5 to begin with, and they need to take a long look at their scouting department.

              The decision to throw in shells was interesting. Was he expecting Chip Kelly to come after him with one of those yellow foam pad things, or perhaps George Whitfield to throw the bean bags a little too hard at his feet?

              1. It’s all about the broom…I question any QB pro day performance that doesn’t include a broom being waved.

              2. I was reassured to read an article on PFT that quoted a scout for the Cards basically saying that game tape is 95% of their grade and pro day performance makes very little difference in where guys get drafted.

              3. In my opinion, if a team needs a performance like this to make up their decision it should surprise no one that they are drafting in the top 5 to begin with, and they need to take a long look at their scouting department.
                ——————–
                That’s awful myopic Jack. Good thing there have been no bad draft decisions made from watching game film.

              4. The fact that the was willing to put on the shells shows that he was willing to not only do what it takes but he also exceeded their expectations. These are intangibles that make coaches excited and I no for fact that certain GM’s and coaches came away with a different opinion of him today.

              5. Jaworski said after seeing Manziel’s Pro Day workout that he now believes Manziel deserves to be a third-round draft pick.

                “I certainly would move him up a bit,” Jaworski said. “I moved him from the fourth round to the third round.”

                So what has changed? Jaworski believes that, on the evidence of Manziel’s Pro Day, Manziel’s offseason work has significantly improved his form as a passer. Jaworski said Manziel threw the ball more cleanly at his Pro Day today than he did during his college career.

                “He was very inconsistent when I studied his tape — he had flawed mechanics,” Jaworski said. “What did we see today? Good mechanics. Improved mechanics.”

              6. Clearly that doesn’t make the case he’ll be taken by #4 but it does illustrate my point.

              7. Jack I agree but now I am going to disagree a bit.
                Manziel showed that he is a competitor in his pro day. That has to bump him up some.
                He clearly prepped, he sweated, he pulled out all the stops, he pulled out every rabbit from his dark vader helmet he could imagine, he put on a spectacle of a show.
                I am not a fan of the guy due to his off field side show shinaninganz but I could not help being impressed with the Manziel Show.
                Johnny Football made a statement today – its clearly not over and he is not going down in the draft without a fight.

              8. It’s easy to have proper mechanics when going against air, or in this case bean bags.

                Back in the day I would have been a sure fire college prospect based on how I could throw the ball in warm ups or working 7-on-7. Those drills are easy because there is no one in front of you.

                We’ll see. I actually like watching Manziel, but guys that I respect don’t see his game translating well to the NFL.

              9. Okay, okay so the Manziel show was a bit over the top but it sold tickets did it not. Even a very former US president attended (with wife as chauffeur). Okay maybe that was part of the show too.

              10. Did you critics of the Manziel greatest show on non game turf happen to see the Bridgewater show as well. Not only was it as boring as pro days usually are but he looked terrible, not very serious and afterward clueless.

                Bridgwater was supposed to show us one of his strengths his accurate deep passes. A number fluttered and missed. Instead today it was Manziels deep passes that shined. They were spot on perfect – every one.

              11. Manziel did what Fales did in there respective pro days. They both challenged there weaknesses — what they are criticized for.

                Manziel looked better at under center though far from NFL ready. But what that pro day prep and action demonstrates is that he / they are ready to learn, to take it to the NFL level.
                That speaks to the coaches. Fales knows that. Manziel knows that.
                Teddy needs to show it now in the individuals.

              12. I’m a big fan of Fales, but put very little on his pro day performance.

                I would be far more concerned about a guy missing a bunch of throws like Bridgewater did, than impressed with the guy making the throws.

                They should make all the throws. It’s basically over done warm ups.

              13. I think you are giving these guys too much credit. They’re human beings with emotions that can flaw their judgement. Jaworski’s evaluation, albeit asinine, shows that these guys are just as susceptible to their emotions as anyone else. They were “excited” by what they saw today. The actual value of the workout Jack I have no argument with you against but that doesn’t mean that watching a prospect you already like or think you like have a killer day doesn’t pump you up even more about him.

                Besides, if there truly was no value to these work outs, why do so many people show up? Didn’t they say there were 30 teams on hand today? That’s a lot of money being spent to send guys to something of no value.

              14. Coffee,

                About a week ago a writer that I follow on Twitter attended the Rutgers pro day. He shared a few photos of a prominent head coach who was in attendance. In each photo the ccoach was on his cell phone, then left. Didn’t even watch the work out.

                Anyway, I think I may put my money where my mouth is by attending the open tryout for the Montreal team from the CFL in San Jose at the beginning of May.

                If I don’t hurt myself it should make for some fun stories.

        2. The two teams to watch are the Jaguars and the Raiders. The Texans have given the indication that they prefer Bortles while the Browns seem willing to wait until their second 1st round pick to take Carr.

  51. MidWest ..

    I can see Duh-Raiduhs going after Johnnie Football …
    after all … if memory serves .. the last time they had a
    decent QB was The Snake and Plunkett …

  52. The Raiders have so many holes they need to either take the best player regardless of position at number 5 or trade down. They can’t reach for a QB and miss until of course they like to draft in the top 10 every year.
    If they thinking Manziel is one of the top five players then they should take him, but I think they traded for Schaub because they don’t think they can draft a plug and play QB at 5. maybe they are looking to the second round to pick up a QB.
    If Watkins falls to them at 5 they should trade him to the Niners for the Niners 1st, 2nd (56), 5th two 6′s and number 1 in the 2015 draft.

    1. Yes, that would be a smart trade for the Raiders. Not so much for the 49ers though…

      Why are people so keen to trade away our first rounder in 2015? This draft is strong in depth, not top-end talent. Getting rid of a first next year to move up this year doesn’t make much sense.

      Watkins is good, but he’s not worth selling the farm for. Not when there are so many other good WRs available this year.

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