Choice between two richly talented quarterbacks more a matter of taste than stats

Here is my Tuesday column comparing and contrasting Colin Kaepernick and Andrew Luck.

Who is a better quarterback right now, Colin Kaepernick or Andrew Luck?

Simple question.

I could give you a simple answer. I have a gut feeling it’s Luck and I could validate it but that is not the responsible answer. Reality is not simple. Let’s not deal in simplicity. Let’s deal in reality, which is complicated and rich.

At this time, Luck is slightly superior at reading defenses and following pass progressions than Kaepernick. But that’s to be expected. Luck had the advantage of playing at Stanford in a pro-style offense, and of playing under Jim Harbaugh sooner than Kaepernick. Kaepernick played at University of Nevada in an option offense focused on his running ability. He’s just now learning what Luck learned in college.

Kaepernick throws harder than Luck but Luck is more accurate and a better pro-style pocket passer right now. Kaepernick can improve his passing with experience and a full complement of receivers, and may eventually be Luck’s equal.

Kaepernick runs faster than Luck. Kaepernick is the Platonic Ideal of a dual-threat quarterback. Steve Young used to be that ideal but now it is Kaepernick because he is bigger and faster and a more natural thrower than Young or any other quarterback ever.

Luck is the Platonic Ideal of a pro-style quarterback. He can dissect a defense from the pocket and pass like Peyton Manning, but Luck also can run and improvise. He’s not as fast as Kaepernick but Luck is a very good runner even though he doesn’t look it. He grew up playing soccer in Europe when his dad, Oliver, was the president of NFL Europe.

Here’s another way to compare and contrast Kaepernick and Luck: Could they replace each other on the 49ers and the Colts and run the other quarterback’s offense as well or better? A key question and a tough one to answer because there are so many issues to contend with.

In the old days, John Elway and Jim Kelly and Dan Marino could run virtually any offense in the NFL. But Bernie Kosar probably could not, although he was efficient at running the Browns’ offense. So while Kosar had a slightly better career passer rating than Elway, Elway clearly was the superior, more versatile player.

The 49ers’ are a run-first and play-action offense. That takes pressure off Kaepernick, the passer. The 49ers currently average a league-low 26 pass attempts per game. They have great blockers on the offensive line and at tight end and fullback, and the Colts don’t. There is no way the Colts could succeed at the 49ers’ run game. The Colts don’t place much of an emphasis on power football on the ground.

Could Luck run the 49ers’ offense, mostly handing off the ball or faking the handoff and throwing deep? Absolutely. Last Sunday night, the Broncos shut down the Colts’ running backs but Luck still threw three touchdowns and he ran for one. He out-Manninged Peyton Manning.

Kaepernick may not be able to run the Colts’ offense like Luck right now, scanning the entire field for an open receiver before scrambling. But if the Colts’ had Kaepernick they could run the read-option every once in a while and that would make their offense even more difficult to prepare for and defend.

It finally comes down to what your preference is – pro-style or dual-threat.

Some prefer pro-style quarterbacks because they don’t take the hits dual-threat quarterbacks take when they run and that generally is true. But in Kaepernick’s case that may not be true. He has run the ball 707 times in college and the NFL and never has missed a game due to injury. He’s strong and durable and terrific at avoiding big hits.

At the beginning of this column, I wrote that Luck is better than Kaepernick and I could validate my opinion. With this topic, you can paint the picture any way you like and validate it. It’s like arguing who is a better painter, Rembrandt or Renoir?

It’s all in the eye of the beholder.

Grant Cohn writes sports columns and the “Inside the 49ers” blog for The Press Democrat’s website. You can reach him at grantcohn@gmail.com.

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    1. dumbazz moron – Ckone is better.

      The only knock on Ckone is the “following pass progressions” – give him receivers he will find a way to get them the ball.

      Right now we have a number 1 starting receiver – everyone else is a 3 or 4 ……

      1. @Oneniner

        Did you mean to say we have “one starting WR” or we have a “#1 starting WR” and that is it…

        I suspect the former. Boldin is the only legit starter and not a #1 WR.

        With that I agree I actually think Boldin is a #3 WR. All the talk about being the #2 when we got him I was hoping he would be used more of the #3 moved around and so on. Thus, AJJ or someone else would step up.

        This is a perfect storm for our team WR position. I think we need to start talking about replacing the WR coach and whomever scouts these guys. This is getting silly the past two years not being able to develop WR talent.

      2. Then find one knock on luck. Stupid. And since you used this excuse for your hero for years. Luck beat CK. all that matters is wins.. Right?

        Your blind fury gets you slapped everytime. RIGHT NOW Luck is a better qb. Reality never lived in your world onelame

      3. Right now we have a number 1 starting receiver – everyone else is a 3 or 4 ……onelame

        And a legitimate pro bowl TE. Deal with reality clown.

  1. Kaepernick would do fine in Indy. Their OC just won a Rose Bowl with an offense nearly identical to the 49ers.

    I said this when I predicted the Colts would play for the AFC Championship this season before the season started, Indianapolis is the Midwest version of the 49ers.

    1. Do you still believe that they will given the loss of Reggie Wayne for the rest of the season Jack?

  2. Grants question who is better CK or Luck. In the 50+ years that I have played, watched, and coached I have never seen a QB with the physical abilities that CK possesses. Luck’s physical ability is not quite up to CKs level and probably never will be, but he is no slouch in that dept either. The mental part of the game, there is little comparison. Luck is the smartest young QB that I have ever seen. What he does now has taken the smartest QB (Peyton) many years to accomplish. CK is no where near Luck, P Manning, Brady, Breeze, Montana, and other smart QBs – yet. I think Luck is at this time the best young QB by far. That isn’t saying CK can not master the mental part, but he has a ways to go. If CK masters the mental part of the game he could wind up being the greatest QB of all time.

    1. Undercenter,
      I think there have been a lot of QBs like CK. Randall Cunnhingham and Michael Vick come to mind. Even Demarcus Russell was a physical beast, and Vince Young. The problem is eventually you need a pro-style QB.

      Grant’s comment about CK not getting hurt is wishful thinking. It’s the odds. Eventually you will get hit and hit too often.

      Right now it’s not even close who the better QB is. Luck is quickly becoming the best QB in the league. He was asked to do a lot last year. He’s simply a gamer.

      CK has the potential, he may or may not get there. Right now the numbers are near the bottom. At one point he was considered one of the worst QBs in the league. The Titans D is a very good D, everyone else in the 4 game win streak have been tomato cans.

      I would rather the 9ers face some tough D teams so he can get better. The last thing we need is that deer in the headlight look he had on the SEA game.

      1. It’s not about if you are a pocket or a run option QB, rather avoiding unnecessary hits. Grants point was that CK is very good at that. Pocket QB’s get hit also. Young’s career was ended by a “in pocket hit” not when he was running. Manning missed an entire season due to injury and just a few days ago the Rams QB Bradford, was put out for the rest of the season. The idea that pocket QB’s don’t get injured as well is and illusion. CK is not Vick, Cunningham or Young. There is no comparison.

      2. Fan,

        “Right now the numbers are near the bottom.”

        That may have something to do with throwing the fewest passes in the league. This is an argument I used to have with the Smith detractors. You need yo look at things other than the raw numbers. Kaepernick is top 10 in the league in yards per attempt.

      3. Bay Area Fanatic,
        Were you less of a fan when you bashed Alex Smith?

        Jack,
        That’s true about the numbers. But I would also suggest that when CK was throwing all over the yard in the two losses, he was erratic, because he faced two of the tougher defenses.
        I don’t he’s there yet but it’s not to say he won’t get there.
        All they hype last year was RG3, CK, and RW.
        But Luck, right now, looks elite.

      4. Yeah Jack,
        everyone knows CK sucked in those games cause he was facing tougher defenses. It had nothing to do with the fact that he has no weapons and his coaching staff called a bad game against the Colts. A game that the Niners should have won had they stayed with the run.

        By the way Tom Brady sucks now too. I don’t want to hear that he lacks legitimate NFLquality receivers. If CK can’t use that excuse then dammit Brady can’t either. In 7 games Brady has three games when his completion percentage is in the 40%’s. There has to be a reason for Brady’s deer in the headlights look right FanTroll77.
        Us NINER fans know that once CK gets his weapons back and Roman begins running the same offense he ran last game, which happens to be the same offense they ran most of last year for CK that we will be lights out and trolls like FanTroll77 won’t have anything constructive to say.

      5. Fan,

        Luck is very good, I’m not debating that. You said his numbers are near the bottom, and I am saying that has to do with throwing the fewest passes in the league.

      6. Bay Area Fanatic,
        Anyone who so much as makes a negative comment about your wonderboy CK is a troll.
        But yet when you bashed Alex Smith left and right? What were you then?

      7. There have been other running QB’s, there have been other strong armed QB’s, but there really has not been anyone like CK. With that said, he is not as good as Luck is right now. Regardless of the top D’s we have faced or the so called lack of receiving options, CK looked utterly lost at the begining of the season. He found no lanes to run though, which limited his effectiveness. The mental aspect of the game he is still learning, imo. The team had to backtrack to the running game to open up the pass and he has had a couple of nice games, but I still only think of him as a one read QB at this time. I know, I know…i must be a troll because of my opinion…lol.

      8. People used to slight Smith by calling him a game manager, and with Kaepernick that has transitioned to the use of one-read.

        Question I asked on my last blog post, is it such a bad thing to throw it to your first or second read when it’s open?

      9. Not a bad thing at all Jack. But what do you do when they are not open. The speed that you are able to go through your progressions is important. Being able to read what the D is trying to do is also important. I think that CK was a step behind on his throws early this year because he was asked to do more that he is currently able to do. They toned done the offense, made it easier and he has had a couple of nice games. I’m not saying he can’t progress, I’m saying he is still progressing.

      10. On Sunday he only needed to go past his second read twice. Both were completions.

        This is an area he needs to improve on, but he’s far from a one read guy.

      11. You give any one read QB time and he will go through his progressions. It’s a moot point really. He was better last year when he took teams by surprise then he is this year. As for Luck, he is just as effective or better this year then he was last year.

      12. “He was better last year when he took teams by surprise then he is this year.”

        Let’s compare Kaep’s 7 regular season starts from last season with the 7 so far this season.

        2012 – 120-192, 62.5%, 1,608 yards, 10TD, 3Int, 42 rushes, 236 yards 2 TD

        2013 – 103-182, 56.5%, 1,420 yards, 8TD, 5Int, 42 rushes, 240 yards 1 TD

      13. Jack,
        The rushing numbers are almost identical. So if he was taking people by surprise, wouldn’t those numbers go down too?

        But I do agree with you that he caught everyone by surprise. Clearly in the first 3 games the Niner offense had some other ideas in mind on what they wanted to do. Now they’ve scaled back and are running last year’s model, with a few twists…

      14. Bay Fanatica says:

        By the way Tom Brady sucks now too. I don’t want to hear that he lacks legitimate NFLquality receivers. If CK can’t use that excuse then dammit Brady can’t either.

        Who said that Brady is making a lot of excuse, when the Patriots offense struggle or when they lose a game? Tom Brady impressed a lot of people; he makes average WR look good. He can find open receiver and he make plays down field when he needs too with consistency, Just like Payton Manning. What I can’t figure out, why are you comparing Kap to Brady? After T. Brady career is over, he’s definitely going to the Hall of Fame. You can’t compare kap short success from last year, to Brady’s accomplishment. Kap is not even close to what Brady has done. Brady won three Super Bowls and has been in the SB six times in his career. And you’re saying Brady sucks now? You must be delusional, the Patriots have no defense, and they lost their key defensive players to injury. And yet, Brady still manages to win football games with an average WR corps. Your comments and arguments are garbage, I didn’t want to say this but you still stink with your comments. You’re very immature the way you criticize other people that makes comment in these blog. I don’t understand why 23 associates with you, he make himself look very low to your level? Jordan’s argument makes a lot more sense than yours do.

      15. Trollman,
        I was being facetious. There is a reason Brady is struggling this year. Because of his lack of weapons. The issue is that no one wants to excuse some of CK’s performances because of the same issues.
        BTW I don’t care if you like me or not. You are a king sized douche troll. Not even a Niner fan and you are on a NINER BLOG.
        Pull your head out, click your heals three times and go home….

      16. Bay Fanatica says:
        Trollman,
        I was being facetious. There is a reason Brady is struggling this year. Because of his lack of weapons. The issue is that no one wants to excuse some of CK’s performances because of the same issues.

        Bay’s says:

        Troll man,
        I was just trying to be a comedian. There is a reason why Brady is struggling this year. He has no weapons to throw too. The issue is nobody wants hear kaps bad performance this season, to be the same excuse as Brady’s.

    2. I agree with you completely. Luck is already an elite QB in the NFL. Having followed his career at Stanford, one could not help notice how calm he is at all times. Reggie Wayne was stunned when he saw how developed he was as a rookie. My main take in evaluating QB’s is looking at how they make average receivers look so much better. The great ones, Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Rivers along with Luck all have this capability. CK has a long way to go in this area, having to depend on superstars – Boldin, Davis and Crabtree for his success. The other area which is negative in evaluating CK with coaches agreeing, he has a long way to go in throwing the short passes into the flat, swing passes and screens. That’s a big deal in the NFL. Without having to worry about the short outlet passes, defenses can cover the wideouts with an extra player.

      1. And yet in his first year he took the team to the Superbowl even though his defense was allowing 30+ a game.

      2. He took the NFL by surprise last year. Alex spotted him the first half season. Besides, the D started to allow 30+ points after he became the starter. Right now Luck is the superior all around QB and CK is learning the position. CK has a very high ceiling, hope he reaches it, but he has a long way to go.

      3. SDDAVE says:

        My main take in evaluating QB’s is looking at how they make average receivers look so much better. The great ones, Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Rivers along with Luck all have this capability. CK has a long way to go in this area, having to depend on superstars – Boldin, Davis and Crabtree for his success.

        That’s a good assessment, you’re right good QB in the NFL make average receivers become good WR. They make plays for the team, kap showed potential last 6 games of 2012 regular season and a couple games in the NFC playoffs and in the NFCC, and came short winning the SB. But still, even with the short success from last season, kap still light years away from being elite, not like A. Luck he already prove that he can make a differences in a football game.

      4. Luck has to depend on Wayne just like Kap does with Crabtree…its a team game. But now that Wayne is out we’ll see how Hilton and DHB doo as a 1-2 combo.

        If you look at 2012 the first season as a starter for both and extrapolate Kap’s partial season into 16 games Kap looks superior.
        Luck – 39 APG, 54%, 23 TD-18 INT, 76.5 QBR, 255 rush, one & done in the playoffs
        Kap – 17APG, 62%, 22 TD, 7 INT, 98.5 QBR, 948 Rush, Super Bowl in playoffs
        I know stats are for losers and extrapolating is not real games. Kap’s numbers are down this year but I would venture to guess if we swapped Boldin and any of our other 2 WR stiffs for Wayne Hilton and DHB or just add MM & Crab into the mix so we have 3 real NFL receivers his numbers would be as good if not better than last year. He looks more mature this year. Bottom line is both are great young QBs and a cut above the second tier of RG3, Wilson, Cam, Tannehill…etc.

      5. This is just my own observation and opinion.
        I think Luck is only being asked to do a very limited amount in Indy. He’s excelling regardless of that.
        However, I think if you were going to compare him to Kaepernick, you’d have to consider him in SF’s system. That being said, I think Luck would excel even more in SF’s system. So, I vote that Luck is the better QB and will continue to be the better QB.

        Could you imagine him in KC? They might be putting up double the points that Smith is.

        Luck is a rare talent. That doesn’t take anything away from Kaepernick. I think he’ll have some great success in SF and I’m happy to have him. I don’t think I would have wanted to stomach losing every game two seasons ago to get Luck. I’ll take winning an an exception QB in Kaepernick over losing to get Luck.

  3. How about this…

    Both Luck & K-Gun are going to be Top 10 QB’s for the next 10 years. Otherwise the question at this time in their careers is pointless.

  4. How do you determine who the smarter quarterback is?

    Kap is one of the best at reading defenses. His passer rating against the blitz is the highest of any QB this year. Do people not remember how good a passer he was when he had Crabtree, Davis, Manningham, Walker and even Moss? This year he has a slower Boldin and Davis. That’s it. Kap has proven he can mesh with receivers quickly (see Crabtree, Boldin, Davis) but not all receivers are built the same. The 49ers are DECIMATED at receiver (having only 1 – the other roster WRs are not even serviceable). They have a backup rookie TE so the veteran TE (Davis) needs to still play a traditional role due to how well he plays it. You can clearly see this with the lack of a spread offense they use. There is no trust in WR2, WR3, WR4 and rightfully so.

    Give Kap a couple more receivers and the offense will open up. Right now the 49ers are playing very smart football with who they have and are in good standing. Kap will start to dissect defenses just like he did versus the Packers, Falcons, Bears, Patriots, etc., once he gets his receivers back.

    1. Its amazing how people forget how dominant Kap was last year. He does not have the group of receivers he had last year. I’ll judge him when Crabtree and Manningham are healthy.

      1. 23J
        I know we are all waiting on Crab and MM to return but how confident are you that they can return to their previous level of play so soon after the injuries?

        MM will come back 10 months after a acl/mcl/cartlige tear and AP aside it ussualy takes 1yr plus to come back as explosive as before.
        Crab will be back 6-7 months from an achilles an injury that impacts WR explosivness (MC’s strenght)

        Its one thing to hope and welcome tham back as reinforcements its another to have to RELY on them for sucess. If there are any setbacks with either we are back to 2011 with swain and hastings as JAGs lining up at WR for us and that makes me nervous especially vs SEA

  5. Luck is great, but I am very happy Kaepernick is the 49ers guy. He is a lot of fun to watch. I think he is just getting started.

    1. I think I like everything Luck has over CK including like ability, but CK has all the “potential” to be a great QB in time.

  6. CK7 was an awful lot smarter when he had Crabtree breaking tackles and piling on the YAC. Let’s see if Andrew Luck loses some Football IQ without Reggie Wayne.

  7. Luck has been a true franchise QB for four years now. In terms of getting the most value from a #1 overall pick, Indy was extremely fortunate to draft Manning and later have the opportunity to draft Luck. They were consensus top picks are both are likely future HOF’ers.
    CK is the best athlete at the QB position I have ever seen. He is smart, tough and a natural leader. He has a phenomenal work ethic and a strong competitive desire. He is also early in his development cycle and nowhere near as polished as Luck, which is to be expected.
    Both are tremendous players that are at the forefront of the new generation of young QB’s. I’m happy to have one of them on the Niners.

    1. Big P
      Luck is in his second year in the NFL. He can’t very well have been a “true franchise QB for four years now.”

      1. Brotha Tuna,
        He would have been the consensus #1 overall pick after his sophomore year at Stanford, and was the consensus #1 overall pick after his junior year. He was viewed as a sure thing franchise QB years ago.

      2. I have no trouble conceding the point that Luck was high profile, a high percentage prospect everybody saw coming and eagerly awaited; true. I am resistant though to comparing collegiate success to NFL success. Vince Young, JaMarcus Russell, Akili Smith, Ryan Leaf, Brady Quinn, David Carr. There were questions in the minds of some pundits whether Leaf was a better prospect than Peyton Manning. They were 1/2 like Luck/RG3. Vince was the New Prototype.
        Anyway, that’s why I made the distinction.

    2. Agree with that Big P. Kap is not at the same level mentally in knowing how to play in the pocket that Luck is. Two very different systems they played in in College which put Luck ahead in his development. I also truly believe Luck is one of those once in a generation talents who has it all physically and mentally so rating him ahead of Kap is not a knock on Kap at all. I think Kap has the ability to get to that level, but it will take some time. The guy has come a long way in a very short period of time.

      1. BigP, rocket:

        With regard to Luck being more developed, polished and NFL ready, I think you have to attribute much of that to having a father who played in the NFL.

      2. Absolutely. Listen to Harbaugh talk about his son eventually playing football, it’s not if, it’s when.

  8. I don’t think you give SteveYoung hearly enough credit for his elusiveness. The first defender almost never tackled Young.

    1. Steve could also run over people with some power. He was very strong a durable when he carried the ball. He was hurt on that blindside hit in the pocket not on the run.

    2. Young was a run first QB who was molded into a pocket passer by Bill Walsh. The irony was that his career ended not because he was running wild out of the pocket, but because he stood in the pocket and got clocked when dumb ass RB Lawrence Phillips failed to pick up a blitzing Aneas Williams.

      Phillips was already on his third strike, ended up bouncing around the league, the CFL and eventually jail. That’s why I’m weary of players who have run ins with the law early in their careers. Two striker Aldon Smith should get one last shot to make good with the team, but one more transgression and the Niners should dump him.

      1. E WTF!!! this must be a joke i dont get.

        Chewie, relax on Aldon already. Lawerence freakin Phillips ran 2 kids over that had just whooped in a pick-up game. Pac-man Jones is responsible for a shooting that left a man paralyzed . The Dallas WR that got caught trying to be Tony Montanta…….these are bad guys. Cut Aldon a little slack….if he were NOT A 49er……i could see it. But he is family. He made some dumb youthful mistakes. Lets give him a break and see if he learns from them. God forbid we just relax and enjoy the 4 game win streak. We gotta make threats against a kid in rehab trying to get his $h!t together.

      2. Grant

        You erased the Lawrence Williams Memorial. How come? Is it because you love QBs who are statistically awesome but putrid in the clutch?

  9. Right now luck is producing more. Like the article states tho, that’s what’s being asked of him. It also states the niners pass the LEAST amount of attempts per game in the league, so CK is doing what’s asked of him. These 2 young QB’s job is to do what their coaches ask of them, and to make plays on the field. If a coach says run, they run (not counting audibles). If a coach says pass, they pass. Right now, luck is being played out of the shotgun or under center with one back (passing game). Kap is playing out of the pistol or under center with 2 or 3 backs (running game). So all we can really say is they are both good at doing what’s asked of them. As far as potential goes, we’ve seen Kap have a 400+ yrd passing game with 4td’s, and we’ve also seen him post the highest QBR in the league this season during last weeks game. We’ve also seen him set a record for most rushing yrds by a QB EVER in the playoffs, and this is all in the short 16 game career he has going. So as far as WHAT he can do, it’s a lot. Now the question will be how does he fall into a pattern of consistantly doing that, and if he does, he has the potential to be all-time great. Part of him needs his weapons to do that. The 49ers are not a 1 trick pony. The run opens the play action which opens the run which opens the pass. Once he gets his receivers to threaten the pass game, boom, the read option and run game are back up and they will become as unstoppable as they were last year. But Kap can’t carry it on his shoulders like luck, because the colts rely much more on the pass game. The comparison is useless IMO, and doesn’t accomplish anything other than recognizing that both qB’s are amazing and both have potential to be even better. Go niners

    1. Well said, Rodge. I think Harbaugh’s pretty wise when it comes to refusing to compare players. It’s ALWAYS apples and oranges, given the number of differing factors on each team.

  10. Grant i agree with your opinion. Luck is a true pro QB and Colts were extremely lucky to get him. However CK has all the upside and physical ability to take his game to a whole different level with more experience and coaching. I really would like for CK to focus on going through his progression and its up to the coaching staff to insert plays with easier options if the first or second read is covered as Jack stated on his blog. If we tap into getting our running backs involve in the passing game this offense will become much more dangerous.

  11. Grant says:

    Here’s another way to compare and contrast Kaepernick and Luck: Could they replace each other on the 49ers and the Colts and run the other quarterback’s offense as well or better? A key question and a tough one to answer because there are so many issues to contend with.

    In my opinion, if Andrew Luck switches team to the 49ers, he’ll make the 49ers an instant SB championship team. If Kap switch team to the Colts, I doubt it, that he would have the same success in Indy like Luck is having right now. Luck will make a big impact with the 49ers. Andrew Luck is way more talented then Kap, his very consistent on all face of the game. Luck might not be a sprinter like kap, but he has a better understanding of the game.

    1. You are making you evaluation based on the idea that the “Pro style QB” is always the best fit for any team. A lot has to do with the personal of that team. As has been stated the Colts are geared to a passing attack because Manning proceeded Luck. All they really needed was a very good “Pro style QB” to get back to the contender they were before Manning was injured. Luck filled that need and more. While 49er’s were a team that was based on the run, ball control and great defense. The defense and special teams went into the toilet last season. They lost the a lot of their offense when Hunter ( who was needed to share carries with Gore to keep him fresh) and their 2 and 3rd receiving options. What saved them was the athletic ability of CK to make big plays not only through the air but primarily the home runs on the ground. Luck would not have been able to provide the plays CK made on the ground. Ck was what the Niners needed. With the depleted WR corps of the niners the passing game would not under any circumstances be effective until Manningham or Crabs returns. Could they play and be effective in on each others teams? Yes! But neither would be as effective as the other is on their own team. I guess I am just repeating what was written in the article.

      All things run in cycles. The image of what is a ” Pro style QB has not been that constant. The present image has been so only since Johnny Unitus who set the standard of the stand in the pocket exclusively and pass QB. The game evolves and times change. I think what we are experiencing now is another change to the image of what constitutes or defines a ” Pro style QB “.

      1. You are wrong. Go back to Norm Van Brocklin in the early 1960s. You guys have not lived long enough to understand that greatness is something that is achieved over a tremendous amount of time. Now days, you think a guy is great if he can do it for a couple of years. Try a decade before you label a guy as great. Today’s society, unfortunately, is based upon what can you do for me lately. That is not a good indicator for what is labeled as greatness.

    2. Capeman,
      Okay, let’s play QB roulette.
      If Luck was on the Niners they would taylor an offense around his skill set and the Niners are an SB team. They are almost there without him.
      If you put Russell Wilson on the Niners, they would not be better.
      RG3 and Ck have similar skill sets, and I think RG3 is a little behind CK in development.
      If you put CK in Seattle, they would be the same.
      If you put CK in Kansas City, their offense would have a vertical component, but they would not be undefeated.
      If you put CK on Oakland, they would definitely be a lot better.
      Put him on Denver and I think Denver would be just as dangerous as they are now, as I think the OC coordinator would run the same type of bubble screen under neath type passing, with an occassional shot play. And then CK can scramble.
      If you put CK on SD, he would suck there.
      If you put Alex Smith back on this current team, it would be the same as the numbers are identical!
      I think I just gave a bunch of red meat to Bay Area Fanatic!

      1. Fan you are incorrdct. Put Smith back on the Niners and we are not the same team. CK is a league leader in ypp and they score quite a bit on shot plays. Both areas that were weaknesses for Alex.

      2. Ultimately Harbaugh wanted certain parts of the field attacked and Smith was either reluctant to do it or couldnt.

      3. Dude you are the king of assumptions. These are just opinions that have no merit and are UN-proveable. Just like rectums…everybody’s got one but I’ll give you credit for entertainment value.

      4. Unfortunately, Russell Wilson is better than Kaep right now. Anyone who saw the Thursday night game vs Arizona would admit to this. He’s pretty incredible in terms of sheer elusiveness in the pocket.

        Dude buys time like no other. Kaep, RG3, Cam, Vick, Locker (when healthy), etc – when they get pressured, they head up field – Wilson runs effing circles around the backfield eluding one defender after another until someone pops open.

        Imagine if Staley, Anthony Davis and (since Unger is a 2012 & 2013 Pro Bowl starter) Iupati were out….. Wilson get pressured on 44.6% of dropbacks. That’s insane.

        To be honest, I never paid much attention to him because I was hoping he was fluke. But it’s no wonder that perennially under .500 team is now a Super Bowl contender just by adding him.

        I’d never admit it to a Seadderall fan, but I think I’d rather have him than Kaep if I had to go with a QB just for this season.

  12. I believe because the staff has no confidence in their back ups they forced CK to play more conservatively that he did last year. As Cohen stated CK is very smart when it comes to avoiding hits. They should have just trusted his instincts rather than putting the chains on his running game. It the earlier games he held the ball far too long waiting for receivers to get open while running lanes that were open eventually closed. When he did run he went out of bounds or slid far too early than was necessary. He ended up over thinking everything and putting himself out of sync. In the Seattle game and Colt game they were daring him to run.

    1. Willtalk says:

      They should have just trusted his instincts rather than putting the chains on his running game. It the earlier games he held the ball far too long waiting for receivers to get open while running lanes that were open eventually closed.

      I agree with you, harbaugh and the 49rs coaches are worried that kap might get hurt, if they let him run with the football against good teams with relentless defense. I can understand the 49ers for their concern, because kap is their only reliable starter even though his young and inconsistent, the 49er defense still make it up by creating turn overs.

  13. If you go back to his first debut(pre-season) to now,there’s no comparison! He’s grown leaps and bounds and his ceiling is higher,it’s not Luck it’s skill baby!!!

    1. absofreakinglutely. Although Luck may be the best QB of his era. But CK is going to be special. Winning is all that matters in the NFL and so far CK has two playoff wins and has reached the superbowl.

      Cue the trolls…..

    2. Football IQ can and can not be learned. Not everyone has it. There have been strong armed running QB’s that could never learn how to read a defense, have pocket presence, etc. Both of these QB’s are special in there own way.

      1. He had a 4.0 GPA at the University of Nevada, Reno and he scored a 37 on the Wonderlic test at the NFL combine. The average at quarterback is a 24. Recent studies indicate that the mean score for all players, excluding offensive linemen, is 21.04 with a standard deviation of 7.15. That puts Kaepernicus more than two standard deviations above the mean. To put it in terms that the haters can understand…..he is a very smart football player.

      2. No one has “anointed” Kaepurnicus that I know of, but I did see where he’s scheduled to be knighted, along with Bruce Dickinson, by Queen Elizabeth early next spring…

      3. Didn’t Alex Smith have over a 4.0, graduate in 3 years and score a 40 on his Wonderlic (rhetorical)???

        He sure can do all the things that the Brady’s, Luck’s, Brees’, and Manning’s can do….. wait – what?

        You can’t teach natural pocket presence, it’s a feel thing. Some guys handle pressure and can think almost as clearly as when they aren’t under pressure. Some people can think football faster than others (the game seems slower to them). Some people who may not seem intelligent simply retain visual information better or are good at spotting tells that a player may be showing.

        We all hope Kaep can get to that level mentally, but there are other players with great physical tools (Vick, Cam Newton, etc.) that didn’t or haven’t.

  14. Luck would be the first QB taken by most NFL GMs period, given he’s younger than Rodgers, and way younger than Brady/Brees/Manning. This is only a debate because Grant posted the question to 49er fans–who feel they’re being disloyal if they don’t choose Kap.

    Trust me, if Luck were the 49er QB, and Kap were in Indy… there isn’t a 49er fan on the planet who would wish for us to make that trade.

      1. Harbs would give his left nut to have Luck right now.

        I was one of the first to support Kap starting over Alex Smith–and I still am.

        But Kap, as talented as he is, is still a bit of a projection. Luck, as long as he stays healthy, is a surefire superstar. A great coach will take the surefire superstar every time. And Harbs is a great coach.

      2. Sullyball,

        That’s why Kap got drafted in the 2nd round. Scouts knew he wasn’t Luck, YET! However, he has the right to continue to improve. I’m looking forward to him getting his safety net back. That guy was Crabtree. Kap will be where he was last year in no time at all. He will silence the critics and the Smithers.

  15. At this moment Luck is a better QB than Kap. More accurate and better reader of the defense. He goes through his progressions like a ten year vet. Kap has had an issue this year at eyeing receivers and telegraphing his throws. A mistake common in young players. That being said Kap has tremendous upside and his arm speed is a game changer, where Lucks is not. Kap has the potential to be right up there but at this moment he’s not there

    1. Wrong…career completion % Kap = 60%, Luck = 55% plus Luck throws more picks Kap = 2%, Luck = 2.5%. Luck is not more accurate so your opinion that Luck reads the D better is just that an opinion not backed by actual data. Kap also gets sacked less and runs way better so get off Lucks nuts…Kap is the man.

      1. “Kap also gets sacked less and runs way better”

        Not true. Over the last 2 seasons Kaepernick has been sacked on 7.8% of his attempts while Luck has been sacked on 6.7% of his attempts.

        Over the last 2 years Kaepernick holds the advantage on yards per rush, 6.2 to 4.9, while Luck has scored 8TD to 6TD for Kaepernick.

        So far this season Luck has averaged 6.5 ypc, to 5.7 for Kaepernick.

      2. Luck has thrown the ball so much more than Kap it’s tough to compare passing numbers. The more a QB throws it, especially young ones, the lower the completion percentage is likely to be as well as a higher number of Ints. Luck is a more advanced player than Kap is. He’s been a can’t miss coveted prospect for years and was given responsibility few rookie QB’s get in his rookie year in Indy. Kap may get there eventually but there is a gap between the two right now.

  16. I don’t think anyone can argue that Luck is further along in development than Kaep at this moment. At least when it comes to running their respective offense efficiently, and reading defenses. The Colts and Seahawks are good teams, but let’s remember that both of these games were in the beginning of the season, when teams are only starting to find their identities. Remember the Cardinals going 4-0 last year? They beat the Seahawks and the Patriots in that run. That didn’t last long. The Seahawks were looking average at best through the whole first half of the season. Kaep is going to continue getting better this season, and developing that rhythm. I think the Colts/Seahawks games showed them that they can’t rely on the passing game as much against good teams where it currently stands. McDonald is still developing, although he may be starting to come out of his shell. We are all hopeful for Baldwin to start clicking. Manningham and Crabtree need to come back strong to give this team a real boost. A passing attack with Vern, Boldin, a strong Crabtree, and Manningham/Patton as extra options will be a tough match.

    By the way.. any news on Patton’s progress with his foot?

  17. Luck is definitely the better QB. I think the reason why Kap got all the fame is 1.) He went to the Super Bowl, and 2.) Luck was a #1 pick, replaced Manning, and was seen as the QB of the next decade coming out of college, while Kap was a 2nd round choice coming out of obscurity from Nevada Reno. Luck will continue to be a better QB. His measurable are similar to KAP (Kaps faster but Luck is fast enough, Kap has a stronger Arm but Luck still has a relatively strong arm for QBs) and Luck had a jump start on knowledge of a pro style system. Kap is still working on his pocket footwork and reading defenses. But to me that doesn’t matter. Kap is still a great QB. Its like saying yes Im sure teams would have rather had Peyton Manning but are just fine with Drew Brees.

  18. Grant is correct, Luck is better now. That said, Kaepernick’s upside, size and tools are the best I have seen since Elway. If he progresses to the next level next year, he should be the best QB in NFL four or five years from now.

    1. Size and tools? Just for comparison kaep is 6’4, 230 and ran a 4.53 40 at the draft. Luck is 6’4 240 and ran a 4.59 40. Luck is bigger yet only .06 seconds slower in the 40 yard dash. I bet if luck was at 230 he’d post the same 40 time as kaep. So this physical phenom that everyone thinks is so unique really isn’t.

      1. mj, your point is reasonable, but I’d like to point out a couple things in response.

        1. Don’t forget about cutting and how fluid the running motion is. It helps in open space. Kaep is frequently lauded as being way too elusive for someone his size.

        2. Kaep’s throwing speed. Throwing a football 60 mph is downright dumb. Cannon.

        I think much of the focus is that it’s rare from someone to have both of these.

  19. That said, as Montana proved, it is not always the best physical attributes that make you the best QB ( in Montana’s case ever). It is the mind and accuracy that ultimately matter.

  20. It would of been a little more interesting if we put Russell Wilson in the mix. Wilson good passer, extends plays and of-course he can run. Luck just has better mental skills then Kaep, he is seasoned at his young age. I am waiting for Kaep to be able to throw the ball to a few different guys, then the usual two, with Crabs and Manningham, coming back, lets see what he can do with more arsenal.

    1. Wilson would win in the trait of being able to pull a magical play out of his behind and that is about it. You contain Wilson in the pocket and the chances of him beating you go way down. Look at last game against the niners his stats stunk. Niners could have won with better execution and no dumb penalties.

    2. Wilson can be rendered ineffective by slowly squeezing him in the pocket and pushing him back, except for the occasional magical broken play. But in a few years, that blazing quickness will go away. He better pick up on Drew Brees’ game before that (and while their running game is a bigger threat than his passing) or he will be gone from the league.

  21. Grant writes: “Luck is the Platonic Ideal of a pro-style quarterback. He can dissect a defense from the pocket and pass like Peyton Manning, but Luck also can run and improvise. ”

    Pre-snap defense dissection is an absolute necessity for all successful NFL QBs in these days of complex defensive schemes with ultra-athletic pass rushers, whether the QBs are pro-style or statues within the pocket or sufficiently mobile.

    As regards to Luck vs. Kaep (or Wilson or RG3), it’s not even a competition. Luck is way ahead of the rest of the young QBs. He always was. And I write this as a big fan for Kaep. Kaep is undoubtedly the better athlete and has a stronger arm. But those are just two of a much larger set of skills of a successful NFL QB (despite what Grant and Greg Cossell may contend). Luck is an extremely mobile QB, both within the pocket and outside. In contrast, Kaep at this stage has below average mobility within the pocket. On broken plays, Kaep is a bigger threat to score on huge gains, but Luck is equally good in getting first downs and more yards.

    By his senior year at Stanford, Luck was calling up to a dozen plays per game from the line of scrimmage. He had mastery of a voluminous playbook that was bigger than the Niners’ playbook in 2011 season. He was routinely looking safeties away and throwing to his third reads.

    Luck has excellent feel for pass rush and probably would have been sacked 50% more last season if he was not that good at moving around the pocket. He made some amazing throws with defender hanging all over him or dragging him down.

    Both Kaep and Luck has progressed in their second year. Luck still has a below-average O line and stone-handed receivers (Bey and Fleener) and barely serviceable RBs (Trent Richardson is yet another SEC RB bust). Kaep has the luxury of the leagues best O line and one of the best rushing attacks. Luck is pretty much the Colts’ offense.

    I’m as big a fan of Kaep as I was of Smith, I do hope Kaep will catch up to Luck. But I won’t be shocked if that doesn’t happen. Luck is a once-in-a-generation QB. However, Niners can win multiple Lombardis with “Kaeperbaugh”.

    1. I wish I read your comment about Richardson before my fantasy football draft this year……unbelievable bust.

  22. Back in the ’80s, people mentioned the (then)
    three greatest QBs … Montana, Elway and Marino ..
    (I’ve had many spirited “discussions” .. with fans of
    the other two QBs ..)

    In the 90′s (and early 2000 ths) .. the talk was
    Peyton and Brady … (later, Rogers and Breese)

    Point being ..
    I’m guessing the torch has been passed ..
    The two greatest QBs of this generation are..
    Luck and Kaep ….
    (how long did Peyton suck, before he became good ?)

    1. Peyton “sucked” for his rookie season, and even then he was good he just tossed a lot of ints….didnt help that he inherited the worst team in the nfl the previous season (2 wins I believe they had). And seriously, kaep and luck “greatest” of this generation…laughable. Can we let flavor of the month play more than one season before you crown him? Just cause you’re a fan of a team does not mean you have to be a fanatic, that’s raider fan mentality.

      1. Peyton was not good his sophmore season. He was mediocre for a few more years while the team was building and he was learning.

        “Just because you’re a fan of a team does not mean you have to be a fanatic, that’s r***er mentality.”

        Cursing will get you banned from this site, mj. Also, I see your point, but Kaep and Luck being the greatest isn’t “laughable”. I do agree that it’s too early. Try not to be too negative nancy though!!

      2. Peyton wasnt good his sophomore year?? The guy went from 56 completion percent to 63, threw for 400 more yards than his rookie year, kept his 26 tds but threw 13 less ints (28 to 15), made the pro bowl and led his team, which was 3-13 hisr

      3. Rookie year to 13-3, 1st place and the playoffs. Im not a peyton fan but your view of history is horribly wrong.

        And trying to use this site with a mobile device is a joke.

      4. mj,

        Apologies, mediocre was a poor word choice without context. In relation to Peyton in 2003 and beyond, when he started consistently being the Peyton we know today, shredding defenses left and right, with a young Wayne, and Harrison in his prime, and E. James going strong. Also a young, tough defense thanks to T. Dungy and the FO.

        However, the point I was making was that Peyton was not the player he became, and was still learning. He had a very good season in his first 5 in 2000, when he went 33 TD’s and 15 Int’s. The year after, he had 26 TD’s to 23 Int’s, the Colts went 6-10 that year. They lost James early with a knee injury, and the offensive attack suffered. The year after, with Dungy in his first year rebuilding the Colts D, he was still learning and climbing, going 27-19, which was still a good mark at the time. keep in mind, however, that this was in the midst of a big change over in Elite QB’s in the league (Elite being defined here as someone who is at the top of the league year in and year out). The year Peyton had 23 picks and an 84 QBR, he was still good enough for top 10. Peyton was extremely talented, but not yet the genius he is known to be today. Having one the the NFL’s top RB’s, along with one of the NFL’s top receivers helped early success. They even had Marshall Faulk his rookie season. By mid – 2000′s, however, it didn’t matter who he had to throw to, he was going to destroy your defense. His decision making was improved, averaging more than a 3:1 TD to Int ration after that.

        I appreciate your opinion, but please don’t assume you know my posting history, and take blind shots at my “view of history”. I’ll admit, however, that mediocre was a poor word choice, and concede my mistake on that.

        On another note, this made me curious about Peyton’s history with the no-huddle. I thought they had started using it once Dungy got there, but they implemented it the year before. Also, another very interesting note, is the understanding that Peyton was given a few plays to choose from at the line, much like Colin is now. Currently looking for early tape on Peyton to see the differences in checks.

    2. If that is your thought process, I guess Troy Aikman “sucked” as a rookie, too, because the Cowboys under Jimmy Johnson went 1-15. Some of every QB’s success has to be tied to the talent around him. After the Herschel Walker trade for 11 picks and players, the Cowboys improved dramatically. One of Johnson’s best qualities was as a talent evaluator.

      1. Aikman was average at best. He is the least responsible for Dallas’s success and turnaround from a 1-15 season. Dallas may have had the best offensive line in the history of the sport. Emmit consistently totaled 1800-2000 combined yards every year behind that line. Aikman was decent, but not great by any means. Not one of the main reasons for their success.

      2. Dallas’ O-Line wasn’t that great. Starting from their 1st playoff season, they were 13th, 5th, 2nd, 5th in rushing. But they were considered the best line of that time.

        Just like the 49ers are now considered the best by scouts and advanced stats ppl (Daryl Johnston actually compared our line to his). Rushing wise, the 49ers OL were 8th, 4th and are currently 3rd.

        It’s hard to compare pass-protection by the numbers just b/c a QB affects so much. If you have one who gets the ball out quick, he can hide how bad the line is in terms of stats.

      3. You all realize that Wilson is without his Crabtree, Staley, Anthony Davis, and Mike Iupati… don’t you? And none of their other receivers are at Vernon Davis’ level.

        You can be a fan without being a homer.

      1. Fouts was not that hot until Air Coryell. Up to that point, he was just average. Speaks volumes to coach and system being able to elevate a player to the next performance tier. Have to be in the right place at the right time.

  23. Can we stop with saying kaep is this once in a lifetime physical phenom. He and Luck are both listed at 6’4. Kaep is listed at 230 and Luck at 10 pounds heavier. However, Kaeps 40 yard time was listed at 4.53 and Luck, all 10 lbs more, posted at 4.59…. .06 slower. Just cause Luck isn’t sprinting all over the Green Bay defense does not mean he isn’t capable of it and just cause Kaep did does not mean he’s this unique qb, there was another drafted ~30 spots before him who has pretty much the same measurables. Height, weight, speed and arm strength are the most over hyped attributes of a qb, and anyone who uses them as the basis for arguing why this guy is better than that guy really should step away from the keyboard and watch a years worth of NFL films just to get it straight.

    1. Thank you for stating this… I am amazed at how many people are saying they have never seen a specimen like Kaep. Hmm Cam Newtons combine numbers overall were more impressive than Kaep’s and he was 10lbs heavier. Luck is only slightly less athletic than these two… Then their are past players such as Vick who while smaller had just as strong of an arm and was the fastest qb to ever pad.
      Kaep has a lot of potential but he has a few things to work on… he is extremely fast but not very elusive… Russel Wilson drives defenders nuts trying to bring him down in the backfield, Kaep can run away from most everyone on the field provided he does have to change direction much, his long legs hinder him here, Cam Newton, RG3 and Wilson are far more elusive.
      None of this is meant to down play Kaeps ability its simply to show he has his strengths and weaknesses. Right now he is better measured against Wilson, RG3, and Newton than Luck.
      Luck is asked to make multiple reads and direct the offense. Kaep is typically given one read or a portion of the field to read by design he is not adept at surveying the field fully at this point. This is why he struggled so much against certain defenses, the niners admitted to this when they reigned in the offense. However this is trait that needs time to develop and he has only started doing this in the NFL, and he is a smart kid so the upside is there… but he is no where near as far long in his progession as Luck is that is why I dont like the comparison.

      1. Yet all of the QB’s you’ve compared him to have yet to win a playoff game let alone taken their team to the superbowl : )

      2. Shoupbj,

        Wilson and RG3 are definitely more elusive. Size plays a factor in that. However, I would disagree with Cam. I think Kaep has him on that, granted it may not be by much. Kaep runs the corner on the outside with the best of them. He has been consistently praised for his elusiveness given his size. I don’t recall Cam having the same run style, and this is coming from someone who lives in North Carolina and is forced to go to bars for any non-prime time Niner game, but I get every Panther game, if that stands for anything. Cam is stronger than Kaep, so he can normally just shove off linebackers, and is faster than they D-line.

        I agree that Luck is further in his progression, though. I’m withholding my opinion on how much further along since they are both still very much new to the league.

      3. CK was on a team that went to the NFCCG the year before.

        Luck took a team that was the worst in the league to the playoffs.

        Same for Russell Wilson.

        CK is also in his 3rd year as a pro while Luck and RW are in their 2nd.

      4. bayareafanatic says:

        “Wilson won one playoff game…. And look at him now. Struggling.”

        Bay,

        If Wilson is struggling, what is it that Kaepernick is doing? Wilson is outperforming Kaepernick in every statistical category, and has his team in first place.

        Wilson:
        115-187, 61%, 1489 yards, 11TD 4Int, 58 rushes 323 yards 0TD

        Kaeprnick:
        103-182, 56.5%, 1420 yards, 8TD 5Int, 42 rushes 240 yards 1TD

      5. Jack let’s really rain on this parade. How is Alex Smith doing statistically? I know he’s 7-0!

      6. Actually Wilson is struggling. Marshawn Lynch has taken that team to first place in the division. Wilson had 2 fumbles deep in their own territory. Once on the 3 yard line.
        Carson Palmer is why Seattle won. As bad as Wilson was securing the football, Carson Palmer was so much worse.
        Wilson had the stats, 3 tds and 23 yards passing, but that wasn’t the real story. He’s had one good game this season, against Jacksonville. The rest of the season He’s struggled.
        Lynch on the other hand has accounted for 212 yards against Houston (98 rushing on 17 carries), 107 yards against Indy (102 rushing on 17 carries), 155 yards against Tenn (77 rushing on 21 carries, 4 catches for 78 yards), 94 yards against Az(91 yards on 21 carries).
        He’s been the workhorse in Seattle and the reason they are winning.

      7. Matt,

        “Marshawn Lynch has taken that team to first place in the division.”

        And Frank Gore hasn’t carried the 49ers the last 4 weeks?

        Lynch – 138 carries – 578 yards
        Gore – 127 carries – 547 yards

        Here are the run/pass numbers for the 49ers over their 4 game win streak,

        40/23
        36/15
        38/29
        41/21

        “Carson Palmer is why Seattle won.”

        And Matt Schaub is why the 49ers beat Houston. Palmer is why the 49ers beat Arizona.

        “Wilson had one good game this season, against Jacksonville. The rest of the season He’s struggled.”

        Wilson has thrown for over 200 yards 5 times, while Kaepernick has thrown for over 200 yards only twice.

        If Wilson is struggling, what is it that Kaepernick is doing?

      8. Jack, while you’re the Chubby Checker of comments, I think you’ve misread what was written.

        “Wilson is outperforming Kaepernick in every statistical category, and has his team in first place.”

        My comment starts and ends with Wilson is struggling. I follow it up with supporting evidence.

        That’s where Lynch comes in. Wilson does not HAVE his team in first place. Lynch does and the team is in first place in spite of Wilson and his struggles.

        While you’re trying to tar and feather Kaepernick and the lack of production, I never mentioned Kaepernick in my response to you or in any response on this topic.

        Since you’ve brought Kaepernick up though, you’re absolutely right. The team has won in spite of Kaepernick’s lack of production.

        That has been my stance since week 2. Kaepernick is struggling. I think he’s growing and what he’s struggling with is the same thing that Wilson and RG III are struggling with.

        Luck, however, is in a different system that relies on dinks and dunks to move the ball around. That system is working because the NFL switched to stopping the read option. When it addresses the Smith’s and Luck’s of the NFL, they’ll go back to struggling as well and the read option should be productive again. We saw it last year.

        JMO though and I certainly enjoy your insight.

      9. Matt,

        I don’t think that Kaepernick is struggling. Through 7 games his numbers are almost identical to what they were through his 7 regular season starts last season.

        I also don’t think that Wilson is struggling. He has the 7th best passer rating, and the 6th best yards per attempt in the league, both of which better than Luck.

        Both of these guys are doing a very good job of executing what they are asked to do within the structure of their offense.

      10. Jack – “Wilson is outperforming Kaepernick in every statistical category.”

        This is true, but it doesn’t completely tell the story. I’m not disputing your statement, but I just want to make this point.

        I’d like to see comparisons on NFL teams with similar offenses by how much of the passing yards are YAC? Even then, it doesn’t really prove a causal analysis. How many of Seattle’s big plays are the result of broken plays? Quality of opponents, match ups on various plays, receiver talent differences all play into this as well, which is why I’m always nervous about using stats, they can always be used against you as well given context.

        HOWEVER!! I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again. I love how the Seattle receivers are coached, whether it be a by product of practicing against that secondary every week, or great communication with the QB, or both. They attack the ball. It’s fun to watch. In broken plays, they move to help their QB. (See the Sidney Rice touchdown against the Cardinals…. great play).

      11. I’ll judge Kap when he has all of his weapons like Smith and Wilson and Luck have had. Wilson will be better when Harvin is in the lineup I’m sure. Crabtree was Kaepernicks #1target last year. Ask Kap how much it has hurt him not having Crabtree?

      12. 23J,

        I’m not judging Kaepernick, simply pointing out that Wilson is not struggling like some want to say.

        While it’s true that Wilson has almost all of his skill players, he has been steady despite missing 3 starters on the offensive line.

      13. Jack,
        incorrect. Just about all of Wilsons stats are down. Compare his last seven games last year to the first seven this year and you will see.

      14. Bay,

        They are still better than Kaepernick.

        Pete,

        You bring up some good points. Regarding the YAC numbers, Wilson’s receivers have so far accounted for 653 yards of YAC, while Kaepernick’s have accounted for 535 yards.

        Regarding the quality of opponents, by the end of the year they will have played 14 common opponents, but so far they have played 4, Houston, Indy, Tennessee, and Arizona.

        Houston, Wilson 123 yards, Kaepernick 113
        Indy, Wilson 210 yards, Kaepernick 150
        Tennessee, Wilson 257 yards, Kaepernick 199
        Arizona, Wilson 235 yards, Kaepernick 252

        It will be interesting to follow up on this at the end of the season.

      15. Matt:

        I have to ask you to explain this comment:

        Jack, … you’re the Chubby Checker of comments …

        It’s killing me that I have no idea what you’re trying to say.

      16. >>It’s killing me that I have no idea what you’re trying to say.

        At first glance, I’d say Matt is making reference to Mr. Checkers signature song in that Jack is *twisting* scenarios.

    1. Thanks Razor!! Interesting how scores have increased so much since the early 90′s. I wonder how much the test has changed?

      1. >>I wonder how much the test has changed?

        Ever since they implemented the “no quarterback left behind” policy?

        Interesting article. It would seem a high wonderlich is no predictor of onfield success and vice versa.

      2. Pete:

        My guess (I don’t have access to the test so I don’t know whether it has changed) would be that the increase in scores is more likely attributable to agents better preparing their players for the test than to any changes in the test.

  24. How about factoring in how often Kaep changes the play at the line?? He audibles as much as Peyton Manning. If I remember correctly I believe the Niners call 2 plays in the huddle?

    1. Correct Pete. Kaepurnicus has improved his efficiency at reading the initial defensive look and audibling into the proper play to take advantage. By December, I believe he will be quite acclimated into this offense, and perhaps a completely different animal as a signal caller….

    2. Not the same… Manning calls the play, then gets up to the line and can audible to an whatever plays are in the playbook. Kaepernick, gets 2 plays from the coaches calls them both in the huddle and chooses the play to run based on the defense. This is actually a dumbed down version of the audible process where other qb’s have multiple calls.

      Not Kaepernicks fault that is just the system Harbaugh runs as Smith did the same in his time here.

      1. True, but it is still giving him a ton of experience at reading the defense. He audibles out a ton, so in theory that should help his learning curve since he practices it more often than most QB’s. So I’m okay with that.

  25. CK’s game management skills are still in the bottom half of NFL QB’s. His pre snap reads are avg at best and his progession reads are avg at best. He has absolutley no one to throw to after Boldin and Davis and our O line is not a great pass blocking line. I believe he will get there, the team needs to give him better weapons but i believe he will develop in time. Its going to take longer than i thought it would but thats because i think i had set the bar to high to soon.

  26. Pete i based my opinion of his presnap reads on how quickly he makes adjustments. I believe he forces the team into too many delay of game penalties along with wasting time outs because he ca’nt make his presnap reads quickly enough. I also believe that he keeps the O line in thier 3 pt stances way to long again making slow presnap reads. IMHO. If your going to ask me for stats i do’nt have them. There are those here who use stats to make either side of an arguement i primarily use the eye test.

    1. I have no statistics to verify, (Cue Officer Hammer in 3…2..) but it seems to me the delay of game penalties have been reduced, and he’s been able to move personnel into the right positions with the audibles, and get the ball hiked with 1 to 2 seconds to spare….

      1. No, it’s because the call out a play number instead of reading out the entire play. Kaep then calls the play in the huddle off of a play list he has on his arm…..supposed to save them 3 or 4 seconds. Read that somewhere…..

      2. Razor i think you are right. If you asked me about his presnap reads 4 weeks ago i would say he was well below avg now i describe him as avg at best.

      3. Unfortunately I don’t have any stats to verify it for you Razor. ; )

        It does seem that they have done a better job there the last month or so. I watch a lot of Stanford football, and what I find interesting is that they have very similar play clock issues while running basically the same offensive system.

  27. The question may be interesting and thought provoking. Also trying to understand the intent of the question.
    Is it to figure out whether the niners will potentially go deeper into the playoffs (think win SB) with Luck vs Kap?
    If so, I think the answer *may* tilt to Luck, but we cannot say for sure Kap will not improve, especially with better weapons around him the second half of the season and playoffs.

    I personally think the answer is a tie. I’d be happy (and more) with either QB.
    Luck may be more polished but Kap is more dynamic.
    Choose your weapon, both will work. Effectively.

  28. Why would we have a discussion like this in the middle of a winning streak? Lol.. Luck is having a good month except the chargers game..and u ready to trade kap for him? Lol..Regular season style points don’t translate to playoff post season wins…

    1. It’s because the beat writer they have at the Press Democrat needs hits. He’s gone one too many times to the well of, “Gore’s washed up, Kaepernick Sucks, and Harbaugh is a terrible coach.” This was all that was left in the grab bag.
      Since we’ve all taken a step in the direction of maturity, the responses are down now. That means we’ll be seeing a lot of these types of articles meant to inflame at a pointless observation.
      In reality, your inside the 49ers news comes from Sacramento, Matt Maiocco, and just about every other source on the internet but this site.
      We’re all along for the ride until changes are made.

      1. If you have occasionally been to other 49er blogs, you’ll know that Grant does not need the hits. He gets those from the regulars here. The only blog comparable is the Ninersnation blog.

      2. It would be interesting to know how many unique hits this blog gets on a daily basis, compared to repeat clicks to the comments section.

        Grant does a great job, and this comments section does a great job of driving hits.

      3. 23welcher you should get some credit on here as well as most of the hits are directly related to your reputation as a “welcher”. Just the other day you got reminded of it and actually denied iyt, that’s an accomplishment in itself. Grant should give you a kick back.

      4. FDM

        Grow up. You show up to start -hit. Smith’s game is garbage and so are you. Get a life. Try and add something productive to the blog or just stay asleep in the mornings like you normally do!

      5. What? You welch and pretend you did not? And what the welching does Alex’s Smith game have to do with your comment?

      6. Fdm

        I can see that you’re lonely and need attention. I don’t feed trolls. You’ve got one post from me, now beat it!

      7. FDM,
        Yeah I was wondering what was the point of bringing up Alex Smith for no apparent reason.
        That’s what he does.
        So sad.

      8. Fan between him and you know who, that’s all they know. When confronted its name calling or trash Alex. It’s a demented cycle by two guys who obviously have small man syndrome. No other way to explain it than like you said, sad!

      9. “It’s a demented cycle by two guys who obviously have small man syndrome.”

        I say 3 confirmed patients…….Bay, Welcher and ninermdull

  29. I think a better question would be are Aldon Smith and CK more valuable than Luck? Even if the 9ers had the 1st pick of the draft i would rather have Smith and CK than just Luck. A.S.’s behavior and addiction issues might make me regret that decision in the long run but i would still take my chances with him.

  30. U think we could rent jared allen for half a season? In last yr of contract…bay area ties..wants a superbowl..cause Minnesota isnt goin anywhere

  31. The 49ers’ offense has run the ball on 62 percent of its plays the past three weeks, highest in the NFL by 11 percentage points over that span.

    1. Wow! I guess Frank Gore approves of this message. I wouldn’t have guessed that — thanks for that bit of info.

      1. they just didn’t need to pass to win those games. Seattle and rough teams punch us in the mouth and physically beat us up front.

        Need a passing game at some point to set up the run.

  32. Can Kaep take a punch?
    Will he play hurt?
    In the NFL, everyone is challenged in these areas…
    sooner or later.
    Same story in the college ranks;
    watch Johnny Manziel with that right shoulder.
    ” Put me in, coach.
    I want the ball. “

  33. Yes Grant we have and this is a sign of a team that can punch you in the face and still score 30 point per game. As long as we keep winning i do not care how many times they run or pass. Also, this strategy will open up the passing game down the line.

    1. Chicago,
      I agree. We’ve seen over and again how creative the 49er coaching staff is. They add wrinkles and surprise opponents on a weekly basis. They may be playing vanilla ball now, but they’re winning and that’s what matters. When it comes to crunch time later in the season, they’ll have more weapons (Crabtree, MM) and an efficient passing attack.

  34. Here are the only numbers I care about: Luck 0-1, Kap 2-1. Career playoff record if you have not guessed already.

    I am prepared to bet that when all is said and done Kap will have more playoff wins than Luck. Just as Montana had more playoff wins than Marino and Elway.

  35. Looks as though Manningham might actually see some action in this game. Moore released or Patton to IR?

    1. Razor it wo’nt happen but i would love to see the team release Williams. Moore at least makes a contribution on special teams.

  36. It’s amusing that Tanier has awarded his mid-season game management award to Russel Wilson, with a Alex Smith getting an “honorable mention”.
    http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/63217918/
    Marcus “the-one-that-got-away” Cooper also gets a mention as the best nickel CB.

    Speaking of Alex, the man gets no respect despite being the QB of the team with the best record in the league :)
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/23/sports/football/many-reasons-for-chiefs-success-but-passing-isnt-one-of-them.html

    1. Mood

      The article about Smith and Kansas City is true. We were the exact same team with Smith in 2011. Can’t argue with his stats in 2013. They are hardlyimpressive. Average pass from scrimmage is 6 yards. 58% completion percentage from that passing game? Certainly can’t argue with those defensive numbers from Kansas City. They are dominant.

    2. Why should he? For not losing games? He has played nobody and his poor mans 2011 49ers are STILL the reasons they are 7-0. Who speaks of Trent dilfer when talking about the 2000 ravens? And why is ANY supposed 49er fan still worrying about Alex smith? The guy will always be average and safe. The station wagon of qb’s. oh but it’s for the HUGE second rd pick though. Lol yeah right.

    3. As I said in another thead on this article, coach Reid probably had his fill of “elite” QB play during his time with Vick.

  37. An interesting topic here is the trade being offered for Gordon. Schefter is reporting that a team is offering a high draft pick and a player. Who would the 49ers be offering in that trade? Also, is Josh Gordon in stage 3 of the substance abuse program? That could be a little too dangerous for SF to even consider if he is.

  38. Is there a worse QB situation anywhere in the NFL than what is going on in Minnesota? Frazier looks absolutely clueless.

    1. Cleveland? Anytime a 44 year old Jeff Garcia offers to come in and play QB, you’re in a little trouble.

      1. Cleveland seemed to have found something with Hoyer, but he injured his knee and was lost for the season.

        They are right there too though. Oh how far away 2010 seems now for 49ers fans right?

    2. Freeman was awful on Monday. He couldn’t complete some of the easiest passes. I think he will play better this week. He can’t play worse. Got nowhere to go but up.

    3. You think it’s a coincidence that Mike Singletary coaches on the Vikings? Maybe he’ll replace Frazier and solve their QB dilemma.

  39. Luck is proving himself worthy of his #1 overall draft status. But expected a high return should come with the territory.

    QB’s like CK and R.Wilson are exceptions to the rule. They have risen above their projected draft status to benefit their teams.

  40. Kaep, Cam Newton, RGIII, Russell Wilson, Luck.

    All of those QBs except for Kaep were starters from their first game as rookies. Kaep, of course, sat for a season and a half. I wonder how each situation either impared or accelerated the QB’s development. Of those rookie starters, only Luck (and arguably Wilson) seems to not have suffered a sophomore slump.

  41. Grant/Jack/Anyone else with info

    I’ve been looking Peyton’s experience in the No-Huddle tracing back to the Colts. I’ve been reading conflicting reports on how this was run. I’ve read he was given 3 plays to choose from, and chose one at the line based on the defensive formation. I’ve read that the colts formations were simple to make it easier to pinpoint weaknesses in the defense. I read that Peyton was given a few plays, and could either choose from them, or from one of his own.

    Although possible, I think it would be extremely difficult to audible out into ANY play from the playbook that uses current personnel at the line. Seems that would require the entire team to have a ridiculous amount of football knowledge. I know they had good vets, but this still seems unlikely. Do you have any input?

    1. Pete,

      I can’t speak to Manning, but I think we have seen a number of teams begin calling 2 plays in the huddle similar to what the 49ers have done since Harbaugh took over. Watch almost any game and you will hear the QB killing plays at the line or letting it roll.

      Regarding the “faking” audibles, I think most teams do that. When I was playing Juco ball back in the early 90′s we ran a no huddle offense and did that type of thing on every play. The coach would give us the formation and motion, which we would yell out. They would follow up with the play call, and in turn we would give two calls, we used a hot word to signify the actual play, and a dummy word for the fake play. For example, if the hot call was “Charger” we would say “Charger Red X, Raider Yellow Z”. This told the offense we were running Red X which was a quick 3 step combo route. If we needed to then audible out of it, we would simply say “check, check”, and go through the process again with the new play and dummy play.

      Hope this helps.

      1. It makes sense to me. And since most of your time is devoted to football at the professional level, theoretically your players should have a higher memory capacity for the playbook, meaning you can make intangibles like that more complex. Audibles, formations, and shifts all used to confuse the defense, and hide the primary goal of the play. To my knowledge, with the Read Option being only a fraction of what the Niners do on offense, they seem to use a relatively large number of formations, not to mention how often they shift into another formation at the line. Not only that, but they shift in and out of personnel quite a bit. 22, 21, 11, 12, are all employed. I’ve heard many times how thick and complex the Harbaugh playbook is.

        Back to Manning, his interviews talk a lot about him changing routes for receivers. He does what he can to get the defense to show the offense what’s going to happen, like what Boldin applauds the zone read for accomplishing, and based on that he tweaks a couple things. It doesn’t seem like he always changes an entire play, but just aspects of it. He can see how it might likely play out based on how the defense reacts. That’s impressive. I’m surprised we haven’t seen more of his kind. Then again, maybe the reason he is considered a choke in big games is because he over thinks the Defenses… or maybe the Defenses save some shifty work for the playoffs to throw him off? Now I want to go back and watch the Colts game again.

      2. Pete,

        “his interviews talk a lot about him changing routes for receivers.”

        Kaepernick does this too. If you can go back to watch Sunday’s game, take a look at the 25 yard completion to Boldin early in the 2nd quarter. Kaepernick recognizes that he has man coverage on the outside on Boldin and Williams and changes the route to a “man beater”. It is what we used to call a “scissors” route, meaning Williams runs a quick hitch inside to cut off the inside defender while Boldin runs a wheel. (This was something I picked up from Jeff Tedford at a coaches clinic back when I was coaching).

        Williams got just enough of the DB to get a little separation for Boldin, and Kaepernick threw a perfect ball.

      3. Not sure if the niners change wr routes… I am fairly sure that I had read before that Harbaugh didnt like the idea of option routes as he wanted his qb’s to be certain of where his wr’s were going.
        Secondly Im not sure a qb who struggles getting to 3rd read would be ready for this quite yet. Kaep has all the ability in the world but so far I would say he is below average in his read progression. I know everyone says his wr cant get open but I seem to recall Greg Cossel stating the only reciever getting open for the niners vs the seahawks was KW and Kaep was to flustered to find him. Has anyone seen the wide angle view of this game? Well if they can bring themselves to sit through watching that game.

      4. He is definitely up to something. He motions his arm, then points to his wrist and says something to Miller, but the formation sticks, so it doesn’t look like a play change. 2 Plays later, he kills the play, and formation goes into shotgun. This seems to be a lot more mental than people give him credit for. Impressive.

  42. I partial to quick release QBs. Not only arm mechanics… but from the time the QB decides to throw, to the time the ball leaves his hand. Marino had the quickest release. Montana not far behind.

    I’m also a fan of smooth, fast drop backs. Namath and Montana had great ones.

    Was hoping the 49ers would draft Kaepernick since I saw him vs Boise State. Happy with his progress. My pre-draft concern was his looping release (improved a bit) but he was great at so many other things.

    I agree with OldCoach. Whether its Roman’s scheme or Kaepernick’s development, the pre-snap reads take forever. I watched an old 49er games and was stunned by the quick pace. Montana wasted no time getting rid of the ball. The linemen weren’t in their stances so long.

    Kaepernick has had problems spotting underneath coverage since his first preseason game. I’m hoping experience will fix that.

  43. Luck is a no-brainer perennial Pro Bowler and quite possibly a future Hall of Famer.

    Kaepernick has an immense upside and could be in the same equation when it’s all said and done.

    If I had to choose today, I take Luck. But you can’t go wrong grabbing Kaepernick in the 2nd round.

    1. I dont think there is a GM in the NFL that would choose Kaep over Luck. I like Kaep a lot and his upside is huge but Luck at this point has a very high ceiling, not quite as high Kaeps but the kicker is his floor is also very high.

  44. Tony Romo has the most passing yards in his first 100 starts in NFL history, more than Warner and Marino and Manning.

    1. Seriously? He’s won one playoff game in 8 years. Alex Smith is a better bargain. Romo is a tease.

      1. That’s an insult to Young. Young was a warrior with a cant be stopped mentality. He was a beast and he won us a superbowl. You don’t know Jack….. Cue up any list of best QB’s ever, Young is listed on just about everyone’s list. Except the clueless on this blog.

      2. You’re right, Young was a warrior, and one of the best statistical QB’s ever. Unfortunately, despite his can’t be stopped mentality he was repeatedly.

      3. Your Romo / steve Young comparison was one of the most off base suggestions you’ve made. Don’t litter this blog with ideas like that. Entertain your four readers with stuff like that….

      4. Relax Bay. You don’t need to defend Young’s honor. He is a HOF QB who put up great numbers, but failed miserably in the postseason until breaking through in his 10th season. What year is this for Romo?

        Regarding my blog, you should check it out. It might help you come up with a take that can’t be picked apart like road kill.

      5. Jack,

        We know that you do not like Young, however many football people in the know, that know more about Football then the people on this blog, have put Steve Young in their top 10 list. You can google top 10 QB’s , he is on most lists. Romo is not even a top 5 list, and perhaps top 10 lists of QB actively playing. Young won a Super Bowl, something that Romo will never have. Romo is a Steve Deberg type of player, not with the stats, but the end results are consistent.

      6. Neal,

        That’s not true. I was a Montana guy, but Young grew on me, and I came to like him and enjoy his game.

        I gave a hint to my Romo comparison in my comment to Bay above. See if you can figure it out.

      7. Young ran into the Dallas Cowboys, and then the Green Bay Packers.
        He wasn’t on as complete a team when Joe was here.
        But at the same time, there are things that Joe did to win games, even though Young was the better athlete.
        You can’t coach speed and you can’t coach clutch.
        Some people just have it.

      8. “He wasn’t on as complete a team when Joe was here.”

        Right. Another thing Young and Romo have in common.

      9. Seriously, who but Steve Young could have taken over for the greatest ever? He did an admirable job, and with the help of Prime Time was able to secure a Fifth World Championship…..

      10. I’d love to hate Romo and when I’m not watching him play I do. When I watch him play though, I see a very good QB who reminds me of a kid learning to ride a bike.
        As long as he doesn’t realize he is doing it all on his own and that you’ve let go of the bike, he does fine. The moment he looks around and realizes you aren’t holding on, CRASH!
        Tony Romo does much the same. He has moments when he looks high caliber and then it all falls apart when he realizes he’s doing good.

      11. I get what Jack was saying here. Before Young won a SB, he had a “Monkey” on his back left by Joe. He won Passing Crown after Passing Crown, but only got passed the Cowboys once in the Playoffs, resulting in an embarrassing SB for the Chargers. Peyton may be closer to the Young comparison than Romo is, but I get what he is saying. Romo is walking a similar road that Young did before the SB win. If Romo can get one, the comparison will be more valid. Romo isn’t winning Stat Titles right now, but with Brees, Rodgers, Brady, and Manning all playing, it’s easier to get overlooked in this league as a passer. They are the “Olympian Gods” of this sport right now when it comes to the position. All have won a superbowl, and all have put up nearly video game numbers at one time.

      12. Disagree Jack. Until Romo actually wins some games and then loses in the 2nd rd or beyond he will never be on SY level. I think more on the lines of Peyton manning as a better comparison to SY. Romo would be my modern day Dan Fouts. Or warren Moon.

      13. 23 Jor,
        You don’t think period. You forgot to list the teams that KAP lost to, like — the RAMS!
        Lemme guess what you’re going to dress up as for Halloween, a clown! That way you don’t have to get a costume. You can just walk out the door as yourself and start getting some candy!

    2. Jack,

      I did not like Steve Young either and he grew on me as well. I know you’re main point, was that both failed miserably in the playoffs, although I do not remember seeing Young throw interceptions at crucial times. The competition back in the 90′s was very tough, with the Cowboys and especially Green Bay at home. Look at it now.I do not see one great team playing in the NFL at the moment. Also the list of bad teams is staggering.

      1. They could. Considering that Smith’s contract is up after 2014, it would be a smart decision if they don’t think Bray or Daniels could be the guy.

      1. Didn’t Mr. Walsh advocate drafting a quarterback every year? If so, I recommend following his orders….

      2. I don’t know claude, maybe. Try this. Proposition: Grbac is the 2nd best 49er QB of all time. Discuss.

    1. Sure. The 2014 draft has some good QBs in the first two rounds. After round two the talent plummets quite a…

    2. Yeah, but not in the 1st. Their OLine needs the most help (ranked 23rd by PFF, and don’t pass the eyeball test). Eric Fisher has been … bad.

      They also might need a TE, since all their TE’s are practice squad players forced into action by whatever happened to Moeaki and the other guy whose name escapes me.

      I think they need a WR too – isn’t AJ their #3? Bowe’s lost a step he couldn’t afford to lose and Donnie Avery is a journeyman.

    3. Grant,

      79.3 rating yet all HE does is win football games! Stats don’t matter. Smith is a winner! Stats be damned! K.C. Is ranked #1 in the NFL rankings. They are the only undefeated team thanks to Alex. Alex is Ballin! Yet, he hasn’t throw and completed a pass over 40 yards in the air! Lol. Average yards per pass- 6. Completion percentage 58%. He’s fading and the slide will continue in the coming weeks. Why? Because the Chiefs are running out of cupcakes on the schedule. I need that 8th win this week vs Cleveland. Let’s go Chief defense. Because I know that Cleveland has a very good defense as well. Be careful, be very careful.

      1. Nah…it’s like shooting fish in a barrel with some of this stuff.

        It’s one thing to not like a player, but at least know what you’re talking about.

      2. 23 Jordan wrote,
        “Harbaugh made the switch because he couldn’t win the Super Bowl with Alex Smith.”

        Well he didn’t win the Superbowl with Colin Kapernick either, so I’m not sure why he’s still our QB. Where’s Josh Johnson to save us?

      3. Look Hammer, you have a new friend. Hope his stink doesn’t rub off on you. Awesome Alex complete one pass over 40 yards. Good for him.
        His offense is ranked 27th in 3rd down conversions. Awesome. He’s failed to throw a td in 4 of his last 5 games. Clod says “it may be because he’s learning yet another offensive system”. Nice Alexcuse by the way. NFL.com wrote a piece about the top 15 QB’s in the league. Hmmm Smith wasn’t listed. The N.Y. Times article on the 7 and 0 Chiefs eludes to the fact that Smith has nothing to do with their success.
        Yet in this room a group of men with bruised egos band together like a group of circus misfits to protect their idol. Individuals that must have been bullied during childhood. Kids that always got picked last in sports. Kids that never got the girl. NEVER. And here they found eachother in this room. You could feel the camaraderie.
        Each day they show up like a group of comic book heros to fight the good alex fight….. Yawn. Get a life. We are Niner fans fools…..

      4. It is that obvious isn’t it bay? Bruised ego’s says it all. It’s pathetic that any “fan” of the Niners are still defending his honor.

      5. Bay,

        Are you talking about yourself?

        “Yet in this room a group of men with bruised egos band together like a group of circus misfits to protect their idol. Individuals that must have been bullied during childhood. Kids that always got picked last in sports. Kids that never got the girl. NEVER. And here they found eachother in this room. You could feel the camaraderie.”

        I didn’t say anything that would imply Smith is the reason for the Chiefs 7-0 record.

      6. Prime,

        Speaking of bruised egos, lay off Bay. He had a rough day. All the other commenters were mean to him. They kept pointing out how, once again, he didn’t know what he was talking about.

      7. Ok but I thought he would be use to this scenario now. It’s like clock work. Bay opens his mouth, puts his foot in it, calls names, repeat!

      8. Jack unless you’re lumping yourself into the trio of trolls then I don’t think he’s talking about you.

        I wished Claude or ribico or onelame would want to come meet me in person. First I’d like to see how much they knew about football away from a computer, then if want to see if they’re as tough as they act away from a computer. Wishful thinking. I’m always at pole M. And if Imvited some people then NOBODY starts crap with them around my party. It’s a fun spot where is faithful party and talk football.

      9. Jack:

        I didn’t say anything that would imply Smith is the reason for the Chiefs 7-0 record.

        No one has. But Bay’s not going to let a little thing like that stop him.

      10. ninermd:

        then if want to see if they’re as tough as they act away from a computer.

        Who has been “acting tough”? The only person I have seen questioning anyone else’s manhood is Bay.

        This is what I am talking about when I say you have problems with reading comprehension.

      11. Jack,

        Mr know it all. I knew you’d take the bait. I know you have NFL rewind. I do as well. Now go look at the throw in that K.C. Vs Tennessee game. The pass was a dead duck to Donnie Avery in the middle of the field that was 15 yards under thrown. It was thrown so poorly that Avery had to stop, not come back, stop and fall on his bottom to catch it. It was thrown so poorly that the defense couldn’t even come back to get it. Now we know why this offense of k.C. Doesn’t throw deep. Why teams aren’t up in press coverage with the safeties 12 yards away is a mystery to me. I knew about the play, I just wanted you to help me introduce it. That play is hilarious!

      12. Claude… Where I’m from the trash you talk would get you stomped out. Obviously it’s you who doesn’t comprehend.

      13. ninermd:

        Where I’m from the trash you talk would get you stomped out.

        Now, who’s playing internet tough guy?

        By the way, where everyone’s from, what you call trash talk is called fact-based reasoning, and the crazy conspiracy theory nonsense you throw out so freely on the internet would get you shunned, avoided and whispered about behind your back. At least I have the decency to tell you directly that your crazy talk is crazy.

      14. jordan:

        Yeah, that’s what happened. Jack didn’t catch you once again making up facts and displaying your usual lack of knowledge; you cleverly baited a trap with your wiley factual ignorance and snared him instead.

        And perhaps teams aren’t up in press coverage with the safeties 12 yards away because the professionals who coach and play football for a living, people who actually know what they’re talking about, don’t agree with your analysis.

      15. >>NFL.com wrote a piece about the top 15 QB’s in the league. Hmmm Smith wasn’t listed.

        Not sure if you haters want to keep pimping that article. It gave Kaep the not so complimentary “Knocking on the door” desgination, 4 tiers below the top level.

      16. >>then if want to see if they’re as tough as they act away from a computer. Wishful thinking. I’m always at pole M. And if Imvited some people then NOBODY starts crap with them around my party. It’s a fun spot where is faithful party and talk football.

        Oooooh md…. What? You are going to punch us out if we steal your cheese grater?

      17. >>Where’s Josh Johnson to save us? Remedial reading classes on how to decipher NFL defenses.

        Well Prime, Jordo for the first time might be on to something here. Josh did beat out out our short-lived 3rd stringer Skelton to be bench warmer in Cincy.

      18. Look at you Jordan, setting up traps all over the blog, the real life Wile E Coyote you are. Beep! Beep!

      19. Jordan,
        one of my favorite Smith clips was from a game last year. We were inside the 10 yard line. Smith dropped back to pass, Randy Moss was WIDE open dragging the back of the end zone. Moss was so wide open that Frank stopped his pattern and was pointing at Moss during the play…. Classic. Not 100% sure but I think Smith ended up throwing a pick on the play. Buahahahah.
        Rib, I don’t think Kaep walks on water. I think he has to continue to develop. He’s developing nicely though. Is he at the level of Luck? No. But can Luck turn a broken play into a big gainer like Kaep? No. All I know is as a Niner fan I am enjoying watching my guy develop.
        As far as the piece written in NFL.com about the top QB’s, at least our 49er QB Kaep is in the conversation. I’d be embarrassed to be 7-0 and not be mentioned at all. It makes all the tools in this room that keep fighting for Smith who by the way is not even our QB, look foolish.

      20. >>I’d be embarrassed to be 7-0 and not be mentioned at all.

        I’m sure AS is embarrassed all the way to the best record in the league. And I’m sure coach Reid is thankful he finally has a QB who’s not embarrassed by such meaningless individual stats.

      21. >>As far as the piece written in NFL.com about the top QB’s, at least our 49er QB Kaep is in the conversation.

        At least he’s *mentioned*? Talk about embarrassed. At the end of last season Kaep was primed, pumped and hyped to be taking over the league.

        Yes, he is developing nicely, as long as the coaching staff brings him along slowly and design game plans that minimize what he has to do. Huh! Funny. The same thing the coaching staff was slammed by the haters for doing for Alex. Will the hater hypocrisy never cease?

      22. Yeah bay..youre talkin about that first meeting with Seattle game last yr. Yeah I remember it..wasnt that game after the Giants debacle?

      23. >>youre talkin about that first meeting with Seattle game last yr

        Yeah, I think so too. The last time we beat Seattle, btw.

      24. Bay, where you tell me it’s your city? Just give me coordinates sand I will be there. You want me to email Grant my info and then he can forward it to you?

      25. @ ribico:

        Speaking of hypocrisy, remember how we told for years that the true measure of a QB’s worth was passing yardage? Funny how we don’t hear about that so much any more.

        I wonder why not?

        2013 passing yardage
        Alex Smith 1,570
        Colin Kaepernick 1,420

        But I am sure that has nothing to do with it.

      26. Bay, Md,

        You gotta see Smiths 44 yard pass to Avery against the Titans. Smith wings this pass as hard as he can downfield and it looks like it gets shot out the air. It just falls straight down and Avery cradles it before he falls. A 40 yard comebacker. Maybe Jack will copy the link here as well.

      27. Rib,
        if Kaep is doing the same pedestrian things in year 7 I’ll be pushing for someone to take his place. To criticize our Niner QB who has 17 starts to his name is asinine.

        I watched last year as our QB went on the road and beat Brees and Brady.

        He regularly had to win shootouts as our injured defense consistently gave up an average of almost 30 points a game.

        He set an NFL rushing record for a QB and beat Rogers in his first playoff game. Combined yardage over 400 yards.

        Overcame poor defense once again in Atlanta and mounted a 17 point comeback victory which put us in the superbowl.

        In the superbowl once again special teams and defense put us in such a big hole that it was basically impossible to win. In the 3rd quarter we were down 28-6. In all my years watching football Montana never had a playoff game where his defense failed him to that degree. ( Well except against Minnesota )
        Kaepernick was unfazed. He ran and passed us back and got us within 4 yards of winning the entire thing. Did he play a part in not getting it done? Sure. But so did poor coaching in the red zone and questionable calls by the Zebras.

        After that game, he lost his two favorite receivers in Crabtree and Walker. Now begins this season. We start out by beating a Green Bay team that planned for us the entire offseason. Kaepernick was on fire. He threw for 400 and won.

        He did this all in 11 games. 11 games does not equal 7 years. So yes, he hit a speed bump and finally struggled.

        He’s given us big play ability while still protecting the ball. He had one bad game in which he threw three picks. So did Smith last year against the Giants.

        I was going to ask what 49er QB has had such an electric start to his career? Then I realized that was too small a question since the answer would be none. Not even Joe. So my question is this, what QB in NFL history has had such an electric start to his career?

      28. >>Alex Smith 1,570 Colin Kaepernick 1,420

        Gee! And with that short field given to Smith by his defense and all.

      29. And I watched the year before as the QB went on the road and beat Rodgers. Beat a record setting Brees in the playoffs the season before. But that didn’t stop you from slamming him as $hit. So don’t come here say look who so-and-so beat.

        You keep talking these big holes that Kaep had to dig out of? It’s just a much a problem with the *offense* that couldn’t score that got us into these holes we finally ended up succumbing to, in the GD superbowl of all the worst places.

        I like Kaep. I do not need apologies for him from the likes of you. And I liked Smith. But it’s all too easy to keep pointing out the hater trio’s absolutely pathetic double standards.

      30. Clod,
        I do like passing yardage. Yes Smith has a slight advantage in yardage. That is a result of the Niners running the ball more and passing less. Intelligently taking pressure off of their QB until his injured receivers come back.
        Explain this to me Clod, since you threw the yardage out there, how come Smith only has a little over 100 yards more passing with almost 70 more attempts?

      31. Yeah ribico, for you to criticize Kaepernick at this juncture is asinine.

        If, you know, you had actually criticized Kaepernick.

      32. If it appears that I’m criticizing Kaep (which I’m not), it’s only to make a point about the 3 hating stooges as to how pathetic and breathtakingly dishonest their “arguments” are.

      33. Rib,
        there were games that I cheered for Smith. The Saints game was one of the most special games I’ve ever attended.
        However his inability to attack certain parts of the field and inability to trust receivers and take risk turned me off. And turned off the coaching staff as well since they ultimately replaced him. In the history of the sport only two QB’s that won at the Clip that Smith was winning got replaced. Smith and Dilfer.
        And now he’s gone. Why fight for him so hard now? Let it go. You and I should be on the same side and same page by now. Cheering on our Niner team and our developing QB who has a coach with a reputation for developing great QB’s.
        Instead I am in a room full of trolls that want to take shots game after game at our QB. And instead of giving him their full support, use that support for an average QB that used to be on our team and is now on another squad….. See my point?

      34. My favorite comment so far. That I am a hater lol. I had season tickets since 1978 and only gave them up in the late 2000′s. Still attend two or three regular season games a year and attend all playoff games.
        Sometimes what gets me through the end of a tough week is thinking about the enjoyment I’ll get watching the game with good friends.
        My Sunday morning ritual starts with a cup of coffee and plugging in my Niner lawn inflatable.
        I spend way too much time in a Niner chat room during the week to discuss details of “my team”.
        I do all of this why? Because I am a hater buahahahhaha.

      35. >>there were games that I cheered for Smith.

        If you are the “real fan” you keep teling us you are, it had better have been every gd game.

      36. Rib,
        your agenda is as clear as mine was. You kept a Smith avatar for months after he was benched and traded.

        He was a reminder of the worst 49er era that I’ve ever seen. He was the face of it along with ownership that gave the perception that they didn’t care.

        Being picked #1 overall in the NFL draft didn’t do Smith any favors either.

        You in particular have asked me in the past to be a better more loyal fan. I am now. So what’s your deal?

      37. Bay,
        Don’t go all douchbaggery on me just yet. Colin had a great start, he is very dynamic. But he walked onto a Superbowl contending team. And when he got to the SB, part of his decision making is why we didn’t win it all.
        There are good things to like about Alex Smith in 2011 and even 2012.
        I don’t think the Niners can win multiple Superbowls with Alex, but they could have won it last year with him. It would have been a nice Hollywood ending. He gets the ring, now off you go.
        Despite all the crap he put up with, he was a good teammate to the end.
        Now he’s off to a new team and with all his limitations, is on a team that’s undefeated. People can hate all they want but if Matt Cassell was still their QB, they would not be undefeated.

      38. The Alex sucks group vs. the Smithers. MD going all tough guy when he can’t keep up intellectually. Seems like old times.

        Meanwhile the Niners are proving that it was and always has been the style of offense that has produced the pedestrian QB numbers no matter who they have at the position. Maybe one day that fact will hit home and we can finally move on from this.

      39. Disagree Rocket,
        the system they are running now is a reflection of the pieces they have on the team.
        The yards per pass along with the parts of the field that are being attacked are the biggest indicators that the system is not exactly the same….

      40. Bay you may not be a hater but you are definitely a fairweather fan. As I recall you were willing to find a new team if the 49ers had kept Smith a couple years ago. Then when they hired Harbaugh you were suddenly all in. Little did you know that Smith would go oin to have success under finally so e professional coaching. Then you could not lose face so you had to make up a new dilemma. Passing yards. Well, now how is that working out for you?

      41. Bayareahypocritewhoalsomissesthepoint:

        Do you think I “threw the yardage out there” because I thought it was meaningful in any way other than to drive home your hypocrisy? Because I didn’t.

        In 2011, Alex Smith ranked 19th in the league in terms of passing yardage. And you condemned him for it. You used that stat to tell the rest of us that he was garbage.

        Kaepernick currently is ranked 23rd in the league in terms of passing yardage, the stat that you held out as the most meaningful way to measure a QB’s worth. All of a sudden that stat’s not so important to you. That’s hypocritical in my opinion.

        And before you try to turn this around and say that I am the hypocrite, don’t. Since it doesn’t correlate to victory, I don’t particularly care about passing yardage and don’t find it to be an accurate measure of a QB’s worth. I think the NFL’s passer rating stat (which has a high correlation to winning) is a much better measure. ESPN’s QBR stat may even be an improvement, but it’s hard to tell since ESPN hasn’t (to my knowledge) revealed exactly the number is calculated.

        And please stop with the “it’s wrong to criticize Kaepernick after only 17 games” straw man. Other than a couple of trolls, no one is criticizing Kaepernick. No one is expressing a preference for Alex Smith. That isn’t what this is about.

      42. “the system they are running now is a reflection of the pieces they have on the team.”

        Since Harbaugh took over the 49ers have ranked either last or 2nd to last in pass attempts per game. 2011 – 2nd to last with 26.8 passes per game
        2012 – 2nd to last with 27.2 passes per game
        2013 – last with 26 passes per game

        In 2012 the passes per game increased by a grand total of 1 after Kaepernick took over so saying that they aren’t throwing the ball more because of the lack of weapons is at best a half truth.

        “The yards per pass along with the parts of the field that are being attacked are the biggest indicators that the system is not exactly the same”

        The system is the same, it is the QB that is causing the difference. Kaepernick is willing to take more chances, thus you see the ball going down field a bit more. Watching the team on film for the past 2 years, the plays/routes are basically the same.

      43. Jack,
        True West Coast Offense is methodical, long drives, 8-10 plays, using a swing pass as a long hand-off.
        Colin’s skill set last year was to throw deeper down the field, which opened up the underneath running lanes for him.
        Under Norv Turner it was a little more vertical for Alex, as they were running the Cowboys offense. Alex became dink and dunk under Singletary, the Harbaugh.
        Harbaugh put way too much on Colin in the first 3 games and they’ve decided to scale way back. Even given the level of competition, they are going with a grind it out, pound the rock Offense. This has also helped the Defense because even with all those 3 and outs, it shortens the game when the play clock continues to run.
        So that’s going to be the formula under Harbaugh.

      44. claude balls says:
        October 24, 2013 at 4:23 am
        ninermd:

        Where I’m from the trash you talk would get you stomped out.

        Now, who’s playing internet tough guy?

        By the way, where everyone’s from, what you call trash talk is called fact-based reasoning, and the crazy conspiracy theory nonsense you throw out so freely on the internet would get you shunned, avoided and whispered about behind your back. At least I have the decency to tell you directly that your crazy talk is crazy.

        Tough guy? Me? Naaa. When I disagree with someone’s opinion I don’t need to throw insults around behind a keyboard. Like you do. It must suck for you that I can see through your masked games you play. You never answer a question “if its not based on facts” and if it is you avoid it and change the conversation. So again Claude I ask you this since you continue to use this “crazy conspiracy theorist” joke. Why would I think anything different than what our last 4 presidents say? Every one of them have publicly pushed for a new world order? 2nd time I’ve asked about this FACT! Now since you want to coward out of it, quit slanging out conspiracy theorists names. You’re a joke. You can’t call me a hater, you can’t call me a smither, you can’t call me a conspiracy theorist. Now I know why I see your insults after a comment I make. You have nothing else.

      45. rocket says:
        October 24, 2013 at 9:31 am
        The Alex sucks group vs. the Smithers. MD going all tough guy when he can’t keep up intellectually. Seems like old times.

        Meanwhile the Niners are proving that it was and always has been the style of offense that has produced the pedestrian QB numbers no matter who they have at the position. Maybe one day that fact will hit home and we can finally move on from this.

        Lol rocket you must have caught that backhand when I brought up some that laughed when I stated that if smith couldn’t start throwing to stretch the field he’d be benched and that last season Harbaugh would test him Nd if he failed he’d be benched or traded.
        Remember that rocket? Because I remember you losing your mind. Well….. Oh never mind we know what happened and why. And another thing rocket…
        There is absolutely no talking football with some of these idiots. This whole thread is about arguments. So who’s acting like the tough guy? You’ve been smacked around for years with your “knowledge” you claim to have. In fact you’re grants **tch! You’re not as smart as you think you are. And instead of picking sides with old bitter feelings, you stop being the tough guy and maaaaybe start some football talk instead of egging on the war of words.

      46. claude balls says:
        October 24, 2013 at 8:15 am
        @ ribico:

        Speaking of hypocrisy, remember how we told for years that the true measure of a QB’s worth was passing yardage? Funny how we don’t hear about that so much any more.

        I wonder why not?

        2013 passing yardage
        Alex Smith 1,570
        Colin Kaepernick 1,420

        But I am sure that has nothing to do with it.

        Typical fraud.. Throwing out half truth to make a meaningless point. Since your best bud won’t call you out I will. And for the record stats have always been a tiny part of qb rankings IMO but I have to put this stat out to counter your lame attempt to bury our qb for another teams qb.

        Attempts…
        AS 250
        CK 182

      47. You know MD I give you credit for one thing. You keep it football the majority of the time. So does Jordo. The buffoons that attack talk less football, pick through stuff and attack it more.
        The one guy that actually talks football is Prime. Although he is a king sized douche. Lots of things I can forgive and move on from. Talking about the kids on my baseball team isn’t one of them. Hope he swings by your pregame for the Seahawks….

        Now MD, back to football brother. Lets make sure this week isn’t a trap game, and somewhere along the line that the Seahawks lose before coming to Frisco.

      48. Nah Md you are just like Bayarea, you are not a hater or a tough guy or any of those other insults. You guys are just fair-weather fans. You want big passing yards, high explosive type offense and a QB with a cannon. It’s all about entertainment for you guys and that’s fine. More or less, you here for the entertainment value of football.
        The problem is, that sort of fan does not understand the essence of the game. Winning. When Smith was the QB he did not demonstrate what you wanted in the fantasy football world. All he did was win but win ugly and that wasn’t enough. You guys made ridiculous analogies and use of stats to support the fantasy football outlook. It’s difficult to do both.
        So just admit that you are the type of fan who wants entertaining football, and not just the blood and guts type of football where winning is all that matters and numbers and stats are for a different kind of fan, like you and the hypocrite Bay.
        Real fans do not trash a QB with a winning record. Ask fans in STL, AZ, NY, CAR, if they would rather have grind it out winning football or high flying, explosive offenses and losing?
        See there is a difference. Pretty sure fans in KC are over the moon about being 7-0 versus having a team that score 40 and loses every Sunday. Or a QB who slings it around for 400 yards passing only to crumble under the pressure. See Tony Romo.
        So my advice to you and your trio, what are you? Are you a football fan or a fantasy football fan? Never mind, I know the answer, do you?

      49. Lameareafanatic says “The one guy that actually talks football is Prime. Although he is a king sized douche. Lots of things I can forgive and move on from. Talking about the kids on my baseball team isn’t one of them. Hope he swings by your pregame for the Seahawks….

        I’m sorry I was looking to meet you, we’re you looking for some type of physical confrontation? I will be with my kids, maybe you should bring your team with you and show them what type of tough guy you are, a true role model Im assuming you can show them?

        You are pathetic! A hypocrite, and now a tough guy, wow!

      50. ninermd:

        When I disagree with someone’s opinion I don’t need to throw insults around behind a keyboard.

        You may not need to do it, but you do it. Just in this thread, you have thrown around the following insults:

        stupid
        clown
        supposed 49er fan
        troll

        Why would I think anything different than what our last 4 presidents say? Every one of them have publicly pushed for a new world order? 2nd time I’ve asked about this FACT!

        Typing it in capital letters doesn’t make it any more believable.

        You keep conclusively declaring things to be FACTS, but you never actually back up your claims. You’ll forgive me if I don’t just take your word for it.

      51. MD,

        Funny how they tried to ignore the number of attempts from Smith. Where’s Jack when you need him? Apex Smiths stats are comedy this year. But all he does is wins!!! Lol

        1. 6.13 yards per pass attempt! Joke.
        2. 58 % completion percentage! Joke.
        3. Almost as many yards YAC with his receivers than actual passing yardage. Joke.
        4. No TD passes last 4 games. He did run for one from 4 yards last game.
        5. Hasn’t gotten concussed yet. However, if he keeps running and not sliding……..

      52. 23welcher says
        1. 6.13 yards per pass attempt! Joke.
        2. 58 % completion percentage! Joke.
        3. Almost as many yards YAC with his receivers than actual passing yardage. Joke.
        4. No TD passes last 4 games. He did run for one from 4 yards last game.
        5. Hasn’t gotten concussed yet. However, if he keeps running and not sliding……..
        7. Winning and at 7-0

        There I added the most important stat. Unless like Md and Bay you are not interested in real football, more or less fantasy football.

      53. ninermd:

        I’m not throwing out an insult when I write you have a reading comprehension problem. I’m making a verifiable observation. Your 11:42 am comment is a perfect example.

        I didn’t post those numbers to in an “attempt to bury our qb for another teams qb.” The message had nothing to do with evaluating Kaepernick’s performance or comparing him unfavorably to Smith. I posted them to show that Bay is a hypocrite. When Alex Smith is the team’s QB, Bay used his low passing yardage as evidence that Smith was garbage. Now that it’s Kaep whose passing yardage numbers are low, it’s suddenly not an issue for Bay. That makes him a hypocrite.

        It wasn’t that subtle of an argument. In fact, it’s pretty obvious what point I was making. How do you not get it?

      54. 2. 58 % completion percentage! Joke.
        6.4% of AS’ pass attempts were drops. Catch those and completion rate goes up to 64.4%.
        Other dropped passes % are Brady 8.4, Eli 6.7, Peyton 5.9, Luck 5.4..and Kaep 3.3%.

        3. Almost as many yards YAC with his receivers than actual passing yardage. Joke.
        That means Andy Reid’s West Coast Offense is working.

      55. >>Attempts…
        >>AS 250
        >>CK 182

        Obviously the coaches are “managing” CK. Something that drew neverending scorn from the haters back when AS was similarly “managed”. LOL. Do you have anything that *doesn’t* hurt your cause md?

      56. >>But all he does is wins!!! Lol

        Jordo, if you’d rather have a QB that all does is lose, help yourself. Then some of your mindless rants and hate would be justified.

        But I get it, you’d rather have QB that opens the field, passes for big yards *and* wins, right? Oh wait.

      57. Rib,
        so glad you brought that up. He Kaepernick is being managed. I for one have no issue saying it. IMO he’s being managed for several reasons. Mostly to take pressure off of him so that he learns to go through progressions.

        I think he’s had to go through progressions more often this year because Boldin who is his number one, can be taken away with a number one cornerback.

        What makes me laugh is the Smithers used to get their feathers ruffled when anyone insinuated that Smith was being managed. They used to get insulted if you said that Smith was a game manager period. The Smithers took that as a knock that Smith could only play safe and not open it up.

        Another reason I believe that Kaep is being managed, is for fear of injury. The staff knows that we do not have a competent backup.

        So is Kaep being “managed” right now? Yes I believe he is.

      58. AlbertS,

        We don’t factor in hypothetical with the stats. It just clouds the truth! Lol. We can’t control the drops, every QB has them.

      59. When the day comes that a “real fan” like md misses a 49er game because the Russian guards at his FEMA concentraton camp revoked his TV viewing privileges, then his FACTS might be considered something other than fevered hallucinations.

      60. >>They used to get insulted if you said that Smith was a game manager period

        I never did. I agreed with that designation, any idiot that follows the sport knows game management is an important part of the position. It was only the haters that considered (and likely still do) that an insult.

        >>So is Kaep being “managed” right now? Yes I believe he is.

        Then I see you agree your bud Jordo is off his nut in trying to make pass attempts between the two QBs as some sort of statement. There’s hope for you yet, bay. But what the hell kind of San Franciscan uses the term “Frisco”?

      61. We don’t factor in hypothetical with the stats. It just clouds the truth!
        It’s the opposite.
        If a pass is catchable and dropped, the incompletion should be on the WR. The drop rate provides more info than just the plain stats.
        And you can tell when an INT was a bad throw or it bounced off a WR’s number by looking at stats?

      62. Lame says “So is Kaep being “managed” right now? Yes I believe he is”

        And that’s a good thing right Lame? Because any successful QB needs to be restrained at times so that as you call it, can continue in his developments. But how ironic is it that last year during the SB run Kap in your words was a “franchise/elite QB” and now this year he is young and developing. Hmmm, waffles?

      63. Let me slow it down for you scrum, he is being managed because IMO he is learning for the first time to go through progressions. Last year with a true number one receiver, his primary option was open more often.
        In Seattle if they put Sherman on Boldin and doubled VD, it made it more difficult on a young QB.

        Also the staff had him running the offense undercenter where he is less successful. Why they did this I don’t know. My guess is because Gore runs more successfully in that set.

        As Niner fans we should be over the top fired up that when he does learn to go through progressions and he gets his weapons back, he will be dammmmm near unstoppable.

        Got that scrum….

      64. You see there fdm…. Lumping me into a fantasy fan is absolutly rediculous. I’ve stated time and time again over the years that stats don’t show the true skill sets of a qb. This is where you look foolish. Lets be honest. Claude and ribico and yourself have nothing better to do than to pick through 23 and bays comments just looking for an argument. It happens every day on here. One can only conclude that you were wrong about smiths tenure here, and thought Harbaugh was really genuine about his words on smith. Every one of you were trying to rub it in daily when Harbaugh praised him and even called him elite. It’s sounds like your problem should be with Harbaugh. (Like Ds) you bought into those lies and tried to beat your chests about it. I stated from day 1 it was never about smith it was about who would be right. What kind of 49er fan continues to back the past? What is it worth fdm? Its rediculous. And your take on fair weather fans is laughable. Again when your team loses and it pretty much ruins your day, that’s called love for your team. Robots like Claude who could care less if his team wins or loses is the true definition of a fair weather fan. New faces and new names have been piling in on this page. I’ve been here for years when we sucked, not when they started winning and wanted to all of a sudden reach out to my fellow 49er fans. Fair weather fans don’t get other folks from where they live come up to them an ask what do you think the Niners will do this year, at a local spot. You wouldn’t understand fdm. My car has always been decorated with Niner flags, stickers, and other stuff. In the good years, dark years and today.

        Claude…. How convient you won’t listen to what comes out of their mouthes when it doesn’t benefit your argument. I don’t have to type in bold FACT to make the point that it is a fact they have been pushing for it.
        An yep. When I see TROLLS, that go out of their way to look for a certain REAL FAN’ comment to start an argument over a qb who doesn’t play here anymore. I’m going to call it like I see it. Claude you have no other reason on here, but to argue with others. You’ve been labeled that since day 1. Who comes on a blog pushing for outlooks and opinions with a FACT mindset anyways? You’re the piece that doesn’t fit. This is a blog about takes and opinions but yet you claim to only talk facts. Well only a troll would come into a room that goes against what they deal in.

        Bay… Absolutly. The more they riffle through your comments and bring up the past for their own pride, they might want to stop an think as to why they would do it. After the qb they defend still has been gone for awhile. It’s because they made it personal. They were hoodwinked by Harbaugh and feel stupid now after all of the rubbing it in and chest pounding they were doing after the comments JH made about smith. Some saw the writing on the wall. Some saw Harbaugh wanted more. And some were fine settling with mediocrity. It’s just personal. None of them cared about the 49ers before 2010 and they could care less now. They also still defend hofer, the. Biggest fraud on this site. He was a smither through and through. And his actions of leaving cemented that. Another trick they fell for. It’s a joke. Claude is on a page for opinions and takes but claims to only talk facts. Copy and paste. Does that make sense? Ribico is the same.
        Fdm pops in just to start an argument then vanishes for weeks. What other definition can you place the troll tag on? It’s as bad a other teams fans coming on here to look for fights and troll.

        As far as j23… He reminds me a lot of my best friend. Die hard Niner fan, but is sooo passionate about his team he gets angry when they don’t win. Every REAL fan who has that passion gets mad when their team loses or doesn’t perform like they know they can, or calls out a weak link. Alex smith was a weak link for years. And Niner fans wanted another qb. On here the smith excuse makers weren’t having it, an called out some fans “fan hood” BUT these were the same ones who wanted this draft pick and that draft pick to X out other players who weren’t very good. Every other player who struggled or struggles now don’t get that smith pass. They want someone replacing them now. Hypocrisy at its finest. They bashed coaches and other players at will. But that’s ok. Psshhtt. Maybe they do have a little bit of that passion. Tbd!

      65. This all elite franchise QB, how come he needs to now learn about progressions? Top notch QB’s that roll their teams to SB need learning now but last year didn’t?

        My other question internet tough guy, who has Kap made better around him? How come the marginal players have not produced under Kap? Is not greatness defined by making others around them better? Are we really that pitiful talent wise outside of Boldin that Kap cannot make an average NFLer better?
        My issue with you tough guy is you wet your pants early with Kap. You don’t know football because you are a baseball coach. Of the female variety no less. Your labelling and pedestal building of Kao was way too premature. Now your just a waffle maker!

      66. MD,
        can’t get any more real than that. I love it. I also love to hear that Manningham caught a deep Touchdown from Kaep at practice and the whole team whooped it up. One back, two more to go…….
        I’ll be whooping it up in New Orleans coming up, you know, cause I’m a hater lol. Then my next live game will be against Seattle. I’ll bring some fixings over to your partay MD…..

      67. Lame says “I’ll bring some fixings over to your partay MD…..”

        Lipstick-check
        Astroglyde-check
        My Internet tough guy voice-check
        My fantasy football app-check

        Your all set pal!

      68. Let me slow it down for you Bay, and anyone else who thinks Kaepernick is being managed or struggling compared to last season. Kaepernick has thrown only 10 fewer passes so far than he did in his 7 regular season starts. They are managing him so much that he is throwing precisely 1.4 fewer passes per game.

        In addition to this, if you take a minute and compare the stats from his 7 starts last year in the regular season to his 7 starts this season you will find they are almost identical. The only difference is his yardage is down slightly, but that is because his completion percentage has dropped. The loss of Crabtree has a lot to do with this.

      69. Jack call me Mr.Question today. Do you think the 49ers went on the cheap at the WR position because they thought CK would and could make the average players like Moore, Patton, Lockette better through his play?
        Now since that has not happened, are they waiting for MM and Crabtree to come back while callin a conservative game plan the last 4 games?

      70. ” Yet, he hasn’t throw and completed a pass over 40 yards in the air! Lol. ”

        Smith is 1-2 on passes that have traveled 40+ yards in the air,

        That was to easy……Good stuff….

      71. The fact that Smith has only thrown 2 passes that traveled 40 yards is a joke in itself.

        I watched last weeks game. He got Jamaal Charles in a one on one with a linebacker. He not only overthrew him, but it was out of bounds.

        He’s not here anymore for a reason.

      72. MD,

        You hit the nail on the head with me bro. Always have been, always will be. I don’t give a damn about any other team, any other players except 49er players. If they aren’t Niners, the hell with them.

        These clowns make cracks about Josh Johnson like it was supposed to hurt me. I don’t give a damn about the guy, he’s not a Niner. He’s a Bengal. I’m no Bengal fan.

        The bottom line is if you’re hurting the team as a player, turn in your ipad. Every player on your team isn’t going to be a pro bowler, but if he isn’t making a contribution, he needs to be replaced.

        I’d be as hard on Patrick Willis if his play declined. If you’re hurting the team, step aside and let someone else play. I was as hard on VD as I was on Alex Smith. Until Sing sent his azz off the field and VD woke up. If Kap starts stinking it up, I’m calling for his head as well. Not a fan of the players, I’m a fan of the Logo!

        Smith killed me because he was a #1 pick that got paid a ton and couldn’t pull his weight. Couldn’t put up respectable numbers on a bad team. Couldn’t even play well enough to keep his job I’ve the 7 years he was here. Couldn’t get out of his own way. Yet management and ownership kept paying the guy. I’m thankful he’s gone. Good riddance. He’s K. C’s guy now. Can’t wait until we are having this discussion at the end of the season.

        These Smith protectors, they don’t get it. JH made the perfect move and it worked out perfectly for the Niners.

      73. Jack,

        You should know better than any that it’s not the throw, it’s the threat of the throw? I’m sure you know that Smiths ability to throw deep in non existent. We heard about Reid being pissed in the preseason with Smith continually not attempting the long ball , even in practice. Google it. The threat isn’t even there, yet teams allowed him to complete those underneath passes for half his games this season. The going has gotten a little tougher lately. We know Kap threatens every blade of grass on the field. Just ask the Tennessee Titans and the Green Bay Packers, Ravens, falcons, bears, cardinals! rams……. The threat is real!

      74. How many Jack? I’m pretty sure defensive coordinators are shaking in their boots about game planning for all the deep threats the Niners employ!

        Buwhahahahha!!!!!!!!!!!

      75. Is that why teams continue to put 8 in the box?

        Look, Kaepernick is a good QB. The fact that his numbers are on par with a year ago despite the injuries proves that.

      76. He is a good QB but don’t tell me he is a great QB who has made the offense better an who has made the surrounding talent more effective. He has not.

        The pedestal he was put on and the comparison to Alex is through the perspective of three morons who think fantasy football and make up cherry picked stats. I guess stupid starts with Bay and ends in three.

        Lets forget about Alex. Where has the offense excelled with CK. With that potential and arm strength why can’t he get other guys involved. Trust my azz, do your job, get people the ball!

      77. Fan,

        You are killing me. If I didn’t know any better, I’d think you were BS. As a matter of fact, I think you are DS.

        I would seriously like to know how many people on this blog think that we would have even won the Division with smith at QB. Please take a look at the teams we beat and the numbers Kap put up at the end of the season and in the playoffs last year. I really would like to know who thinks we go to the Super Bowl and win with Alex Smith?

        Kaepernick beat:

        1. The Bears
        2. Saints
        3. Patriots
        4. Packers
        5. Falcons

        Alex Smith beats those teams with our struggling defense las year to take us to the Super Bowl? The he wins the Super Bowl having to face the dreaded overload blitz that got him sacked 9 times by the Ravens a couple of years ago on thanksgiving!!! Are you kidding me.

        The read option and Kaps legs and arm got us to the Super Bowl last year. Alex Couldn’t have even ran the offense that Kap was running last year.fan, you are so far from the truth it’s unreal. Please think before you post. We couldn’t have won a Super Bowl with smith! that’s why we traded him. His ceiling isn’t Super Bowl material.

      78. ninermd:

        Yeah, that’s what I thought. You’ve got nothing. You’re good at throwing a lot of crap onto the blog, but you can’t back it up.

        As for me being here only to argue, it’s an easy thing to fix. If you, bay and jordan stop posting b/s, I’ll stop calling you on your b/s.

        I don’t think you guys can do it.

      79. >>I would seriously like to know how many people on this blog think that we would have even won the Division with smith at QB.

        Considering the Niners had a better record with Smith at QB than Kaep – 6-2-1 vs 5-2-1 (I’m generously giving both of them credit/blame for the tie), the better question is “Weren’t we lucky to have won the division when we started losing more games over the second half of the season”?

        And before your knee jerks with “but our defense in the second half!!!”, our average offensive points per game had dropped off as well.

      80. >>1.The Bears

        Who were going through a QB crisis at the time. It’s safe to say there is no comparison between Kaep and Jason (where is he now?) Campbell.

        >>2.Saints

        In the midst of their suspension season meltdown. We beat a much much stronger Saints team in the previous year’s playoffs.

        >>3.Patriots

        A f-ing awesome game. I’m glad I was able to witness it in person. I’d love to see the return of that Kaepernick (minus all the fumbles, of course).

        >>4.Packers

        Who were totally outcoached by us. But then again we beat them earlier in season with a different coaching strategy/personnel so no surprise there.

        >>5.Falcons

        Pretenders. As their showing so far this season has proven.

        You we’re saying?

      81. Jordan,
        that’s a very good question. Down the stretch without CK we would not have won out and made it to the Cship.
        I think Smith could have beaten the Bear especially with Jason Campbell at the helm. And I think Smith could’ve beaten the Saints last year. No way he would have beaten the Pats, Green Bay or Atlanta. Not with the defensive effort we put forth.
        Although our QB was inexperienced, the NFL was not prepared for him. There is no preparing for him with a properly called game and a healthy number one wide receiver.
        I am salivating thinking of our offense with Crabs, Boldin, Manningham and VD. It’s what it was meant to be. In January if Crabs is 85% and we have a healthy Aldon back, we go to and win the Superbowl.

    4. I think the Chiefs will definitely target a QB at some point in the draft but it will probably be later due to not having a 2nd rounder anymore.

  45. Andrew luck is overrated slightly, Kap has the least pass attempts but luck only leads him by a 100 or so yards and luck only jas 2 more passing tds, that’s with Kap playing poorly! Luck is good but he ain’t great yet, him an Kap are neck and neck period! With Kap having won more playoffs games! Lucks numbers aren’t elite! In my opinion Luck is a bit of a media hype job cause he done nothing to completely blow my mind! Kap has though!

    1. You are entitled to your opinion…no doubt. But, I have to disagree with your statement that Andrew Luck is overrated….had I been in the position to make the draft decisions in the 49ers War Room on Draft Day 2012, I would have done my best to make sure that Andrew Luck would be a 49er…go ahead and call me stupid or out of touch or what ever you like, but the fact is that Andrew Luck has a dynamic skill set and is a better fit for the 49er offense, having played in it while at Stanford…nothing against Colin Kaepernick, but I believe that Luck is the better QB..

      1. 49er4life,

        You must be one of those fans playing fantasy football? You should’ve said that kap is overrated. You absolutely have no idea, what an elite Qb is. Your comparison between Luck and Kap is way beyond your imagination. Luck is a better Qb then Kap, a lot smarter and very consistent and the student of the game. Luck is already an elite in many ways he has natural skills to be one of the great Qbs in the NFL, Andrew will just get better. If Indy surrounds luck with good young talents, sky is the limit for these young talented Qb. He might not have the speed kap possesses, but he has the ability to run if he needs too. Luck is an elusive Qb, he can throw short or deep passes with accuracy. Thats why Luck is the better QB.

      2. “Luck is a better Qb then Kap, a lot smarter and very consistent and the student of the game”.

        Wonderlic Scores:

        Luck-37
        Kaepurnicus-37

        Stupid is as stupid does….

  46. At 6’5” and 230 lbs and with his superb athleticism, I don’t think Kaepernick has much to fear from a “big hit”. I don’t want to jinx him, but the chances ofthat happening are very slim. He’s stronger, faster, quicker and more athletic than most players and very aware of his surroundings. Unlike Vernon Davis, who DID receive a concussion going up for a catch in the away Seattle game last year, Kaepernick never has to take his attention away from any potential tackler while running. It’s standing in the pocket and looking downfield that he’s most at risk, as that’s when his attention can’t be exclusively on tacklers coming at him.

  47. Geez i was away for a day and its like the bloggers here went back a year in time. Both sides get the hell over yourself. CK is the 9ers QB and he is doing fine. AS QB’s for the Chiefs and he is doing fine and gentlemen after 2 teachers were killed and a 13 yr old boy right here in santa rosa was shot does anybody really want to be challenging others to violent confrontations. I apologize to anyone who i insult but anyone on here who has challanged anyone else to fight needs grow the hell up.

    1. coach, it’s just run of the mill chest beating, exactly what they invented the internet for. I’m sure if any of the “haters” or “smithers” met up face to face, we’d buy each other a beer.

  48. “run of the mill chest beating, exactly what they invented the Internet for.”
    Damn that Al Gore! A pox on him!
    (PS: I’m still good with Al’s cousin Frank Gore though!)

  49. What’s being lost in this conversation is that we’re comparing our starting QB whose winning games with another elite QB whose winning games. That’s a pretty awesome situation to be in here in SF.

    The last time I remember having any conversations about 2 successful QB’s was back when Young took over for Montana. I’ll take it. I might not agree, but I’ll gladly take winning and any conversations that come with it.

  50. The question itself bothers me. Some journlists (count yourself one them, Grant) get caught up on athletic upside. But, clearly, Luck is a better QB. Last year he played on the league’s worst team without a run game and an offensive line. So, even while the opposition always loaded up on the pass, he still played well enough to break rookie yardage and come-back wins. If his team wasn’t so pathetic, he would have won rookie of the year. This year, he is all the better with more come-back wins. As for Kaepernick, he runs great and throws hard. If not for Gore pounding the opposition with bruising runs, we would have to rely on Kaepernick’s passing. And Colin is simply not that good. He makes very bad throws, fumbles and interceptions. Whenever he’s pressured by pass rushers, he falls apart. He is still unable to check multiple receiver options, preferring instead to target one receiver all game long.

    Kaepernick is wholly dependent on his team–his coaches, running backs, tight ends, receivers, and his pass protection. Kaep is not even as good a QB as Alex Smith, who has a pedegree of clutch come-back wins. As a running QB, Kaep is not even as good as Russell Wilson. Luck would be great and complete QB on any team.

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